# Mystery Diagnosis -- Please Help.



## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

*SYMPTOMS*

*Dead Guppy #1*
Before death-- got really skinny, lost all color (pale as ghost, hoenstly), flipped/hit head on sand, had constricted fins, hid a lot, gave birth to underdeveloped fry (all of which died).


*Dead Guppy #2*
Before death-- Hid a lot, flipped/hit head. Something coming out of behind that wasn't waste.. After death-- Found with a bunch of stringy white stuff coming from behind.


*Dead Baby Guppy #1*
Before death-- Stayed at the bottom of the net and swam very little. 

*
Dead Baby Guppy #2*
Before death-- No symptoms I noticed.


*Guppy #3, 4, 5, and 6*
Occasionally flip/hit their heads on the sand. Males are a little less colorful.

*Guppy Babies, #1-15*
Seem to be smaller than the average one-month-old guppy fry. Some appear to have curved spines-- deformity or illness?


I treated the tank with freshwater salt and raised the temperature about five degrees. I've been thinking internal parasites, but I'm not sure. I want to know exactly what is killing my fish before I treat the tank with any commercial medication. 

And yes, I have posted about this before but I'm still unsure. So please excuse the repetition.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

don't know. White stuff sounds like parasites and curved spines can be caused by deficiencies in water (no calcium for bones) or food in the baby or in the mother. A worm in mom's gut eating her food could cause that. But the white stuff could be dead, decaying, undeveloped fry.

Guppies also get velvet, columnaris, ich, fish TB and a couple new wasting diseases.

I would get sea salt or cichlid salt and start ramping it up as guppies can live in full brine and many diseases can't. Plain aquarium salt is good for parasites, but using one with some calcium and carbonate may help with the spines.


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## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't think the white stringy stuff was underdeveloped fry. The fish didn't look pregnant before she died.

With all those possibilities, how am I to treat the tank? Do you think the salt should be enough?


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## AvocadoPuffDude (Jan 20, 2011)

OK, I can help.
Question by question, let's be systematic.
Dead guppy 1: First, if it was swimming around with clamped fins, AND gave birth around the same time, that could be part of the reason. Birthing time is stressful, especially if you have a scad of males chasing it around the whole time and not letting up, with no hidey places, etc. Also, you didn't mention if you'd moved her, but any movement (dipping into a breeding trap, moving to a separate breeder tank, whatever) is very stressful right before and especially during birth. But, since it already had clamped fins, the "illness" would most likely be poor water quality, which means overfeeding. It's the most common mistake, and everyone's done it, me included. Up your water changes, stay on top of your filter changes and charcoal changes, and don't feed them as often. Try every 3rd day and a tiny, tiny amount (less than what you think....no food after 1-2 minutes, be strict, until the water clears up.) it's practically impossible to starve a fish, they'll munch on algae and whatever, [TRUST ME HE SAID] You'll notice that if your water is of better quality, closer to "pristine" (7.0 pH, no ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites...tell me you know what I'm sayin' here...)
The flipping and hitting it's head on the sand.....probably ich, but again, with cleaner better water, (and if they're not stressed by aggressive tankmates or over-crowded) they flat out won't be getting sick, period. The worse the water gets, the more strange illnesses you'll start seeing....popeye, bloat, blah blah blah. Anyway. Fishkeeping 101 that part. All the fry were dead? Very sick fish, very poor water quality would be my first best guess. If she'd been moved recently, as I mentioned, or harrassed by aggressive tankmates or a horde of males, add that on top. A female won't drop her brood prematurely unless she is very, very sick and/or stressed. not normal at all.
Guppy 2 You don't mention male or female guppy, but again, must be poor water quality due to overfeeding, aggressive tankmates, or overcrowding. Some females drop their premature brood in a black disgusting lump, but white stringy stuff? I'm thinking that's bits of flesh left uneaten by some of the other fish, they'll nibble at the bodies sometimes, depending on what fish and stuff. As the body decays and gets nibbled, sometimes there's white stringy stuff left behind. If it's wiggling white strings, God only knows what kind of parasitic worm you've brought in with your fish. Where'd you get em.....PetCo? Then you get what you deserve, snap, I hate PetCo, and another thing, salt in the tank.....bad thing dude. Freshwater fish live in fresh water for a reason, salt is a lame lazy way to treat a couple of obvious symptoms without treating any of the causes. If you're overfeeding, add all the salt you want, you ain't gonna have healthy fish. Cool? PetSmart and PetCo NO!!! They are BAD STORES. Find a LFS and give them ALL your business, the big box stores don't know **** about keeping fish. Again, Trust Me Please Here, I been doin' this a long time.
Dead Baby 3 (love that name...) "eh....stuff happens." Out of a brood of 30 babies, usually some will die, be born small, or sometimes even have spinal deformities (ever seen a "balloon molly?" That's a spinal deformity that they've propogated - poor fish husbandry in the worst form if you ask me - and gave it a cutesy name. The poor things can barely swim, let's call them glittery bubble fish or something that makes me want to gag and hurl over and over....but I digress.)
Guppies 4, 5, and 6
They're trying to dig their way out of that horrible water since they can't jump out. Again, sick fish are due to poor water quality over feeding, aggressive tankmates or over crowding I feel I'm repeating myself here or is this deja vu?
The rest...smaller than average? Overcrowding and poor water one or 'tother. Deformed spines? Yup, that happens even with healthy mamas in good water on occasion, although less frequently. One that just lays there and never swims around? That too happens from time to time, one baby seems born without a swim bladder, they just lay there. I've allowed those to grow to maturity from time to time, they seem to do just fine, they can swim around enough to eat, but they're kind of like bottom cat fish kind of feeders, and they obviously don't interact with other guppies the same way. Last I'll mention I've seen one other type of malformed baby guppy. Bigger, longer, and darker than normal babies, and almost incapable of swimming...rare but can also happen.
Hope this little novella helps. I oughtta sign my name to it and sell it on eBay as a fish keeping beginners guide, sheesh.
Good luck, let us know, blah blah me me blah.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Its always trial an error. Pick a med or combo of meds that can be used together (like Maracyn I & II), use as directed and see if thing get better, if they don't, do a huge water change and start on the next med (if any fish are left alive). You could try something strong like Clout (effective against many things, but hard on fish) or mild like melafix. Or treat category by category, parasites, fungus, bacteria, ...). Any med that say 'for fresh or salt water' can be used with salt. 

I would probably try salt and prazi-pro in the water and Metronidazole added to frozen brine shrimp.


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## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

*AvacadoPuffDude: *

That was very helpful; thanks a boat load. 

Dead Guppy #1 did indeed endure a bit of stress. I never put her in a breeder trap, but I had her with a goldfish for a few weeks before I could move her to a separate tank. Now that I think about it.. I probably netted her far too often. But I'm not sold on the idea she died of stress alone. I'm thinking there's still another underlying cause of death. 

Over-feeding. Well. I feed them twice a day-- once in the morn, and once at night. Cutting back seems like a good idea (especially since I'm feeding the babies four times a day on top of that). 

Actually I bought Dead Guppy #2 at my LFS.. Where I live, the situation is flip-flopped. My LFS does not take good care of their livestock. And I'm not joking when I say this. In every tank they own, you'll see anywhere from 25-50 percent of the fish either ill or dead. It's repulsive. Petco isn't much better, but my local Petsmart is pretty good with their fish. I've gotten some from their without a problem. Their tanks are clean and they have very few deaths. But I do agree, even though my Petsmart has nice tanks, it's always better purchasing local. That's why I'm trying a new LFS this weekend. A little bit of a drive.. But it'll be worth it.

*
emc7:*

So the "guess and check" method it shall be. Sounds like a plan. Cross my fingers that I'll get it right the first time. Money's tight.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I do agree that a lot of dead fish close together is usually water quality problems. And clean water is a good medicine by itself. New tanks often do get disease, fish are stressed when you get them, get stressed by 'cycling' and come down with whatever they caught in the store. Clean water may be enough to help them recover or they may need meds.

Whether/how to treat when you don't have clear symptoms is always a dilemma. Aggressive meds such as Clout can be as dangerous as disease. My personal preference is to 'nuke' any disease rather than risk it moving from tank to tank and killing more of my fish. You may want to start with meds that are fairly safe, such as Prazi-pro. I've never had it kill a fish when used as directed.

Salt is very safe for cichlids and mollies (avoid it with cories and plecos), just move the salinity gradually, esp. when taking it out.


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## platies pwn (Nov 29, 2010)

xFishAreFriends said:


> *SYMPTOMS*
> 
> *Dead Guppy #1*
> Before death-- got really skinny, lost all color (pale as ghost, hoenstly), flipped/hit head on sand, had constricted fins, hid a lot, gave birth to underdeveloped fry (all of which died).
> ...


dang!gone for more than a week and things change!


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## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

platies pwn said:


> dang!gone for more than a week and things change!


They tend to do so, yes. Hahah, well with my luck it's not much of a surprise!


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## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

emc7 said:


> I do agree that a lot of dead fish close together is usually water quality problems. And clean water is a good medicine by itself. New tanks often do get disease, fish are stressed when you get them, get stressed by 'cycling' and come down with whatever they caught in the store. Clean water may be enough to help them recover or they may need meds.
> 
> Whether/how to treat when you don't have clear symptoms is always a dilemma. Aggressive meds such as Clout can be as dangerous as disease. My personal preference is to 'nuke' any disease rather than risk it moving from tank to tank and killing more of my fish. You may want to start with meds that are fairly safe, such as Prazi-pro. I've never had it kill a fish when used as directed.
> 
> Salt is very safe for cichlids and mollies (avoid it with cories and plecos), just move the salinity gradually, esp. when taking it out.


I'll take note. Thanks for all of your help!


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## AvocadoPuffDude (Jan 20, 2011)

Well, I see some opposing opinions, I guess you can pick and choose, but I stay away from the meds and concentrate on healthy conditions first. Healthy conditions equal healthy fish that don't get all these strange diseases maladies and death, but make your own decision I guess and see what works for you. Same thing for the salt, yeah, some fish can tolerate it, mollies and such, but "whatever." I'll find that danged article and post it somewhere I swear. I maintain that salt in fresh water is not good - one other reason I say that is that the change in salinity is difficult for fish to adjust to, so if you do have salt, it's important to keep it the same level of salinity (called specific gravity.) Remember, water evaporates but salt does not, so you really have to watch it when you do water changes, and remember, as the water evaporates the salinity increases, which is exactly the kind of salinity change I mention being difficult for the fish to adjust. Then topping off the tank, just adding more fresh water, drops the salinity. It's a bag of worms if you ask me, I stay clear of salt alltogether, and that remains my best advice to everyone.
Didn't pick up earlier that you'd had the goldfish in with guppies, another no-no. Goldfish are coldwater, guppies are semi-tropical or tropical, not great to mix those two.
YES! Some LFS are sucky, and are horrid fish keepers (usually the kind of stores that also sell parakeets and puppies and bunnies as well as fish - those tend to neglect the fish.) 
But, in ANY fish store, try and find the most knowledgable and experienced employee, or INSIST on netting your own fish. I've seen the clerk bat the fish around so badly trying to net one that by the time it was in the bag, I told her I didn't want it, it was so beat up. Just a tip!!! Sometimes they'll even give you a 10 percent discount for netting your own.
One last thing: Angel fish can lay upwards of 500 eggs, depending on age and size. 300 is more likely the first brood; maybe 600-700 if they're really huge, or even more.
Good luck y'all.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Metronidazole should work well for the white stuff ( caused usually by intestinal flukes ), but the other stuff sounds too much like fish TB to ignore. The only thing wrong with that is that this tank is too new and the fish too young to be having that problem on such a scale yet. 

Since they are guppies, my first guess goes to Tetrahymena ( "Guppy Disease" ) which looks very similar but is much faster-acting. Lotsa luck with that one. You'd be better off just starting all over again from scratch. Nasty stuff.

Second guess is some fast-acting strain of TB. Let's hope not.

MYXObacteria might also be the main culprit instead of the usual MYCObacteria which cause TB. This so-called "black columnaris" is a killer and tricky to recognize, but the symptoms almost fit. That's my third guess.

In any case, intestinal flukes are the #1 cause of the white stuff you're seeing, and the easiest to treat. The other three things are all extremely difficult to treat if not downright impossible. Cleanliness can often keep these from being too big a problem, though.


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## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

Alright so today I noticed two of my guppies with white/clear-ish stringy waste? Does this narrow it down any more? 

TOS-- Thanks for your reply. TB scares me.. Especially since humans can get it :O I really hope that's not the case.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It still points right at intestinal flukes.


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## xFishAreFriends (Jan 27, 2011)

Kaykay. And so the treatment begins.. Wish me luck!


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

to add to your dilema I can tell you that the last batch of guppy fry I had did also have the top of the head open up after they died and something white come out.
I have been breeding my own guppies for the past 9 years with nothing like this occuring. 
The mother fish died relatively soon after giving birth after she came out in white patches all over her body. It wasn't fungus and it killed her quickly. I had no end of problem with the fry and despite twice weekly water changes I lost more than 50% of the fry. As you say some of them could not swim, some developed deformities over several weeks post birth, Some developed fin clamping.
Since I had previous experience with flukes I treated for that with limited success. I did not think they had flukes as I couldn't see them-- they will make the fish weak, pale and gasping for air.I used life bearer medication.

My male fry that survived are doing really well but all the female fry that have now matured into adults are now starting to show signs of what ever the mother had.
it is something nasty going around in guppies: so as long as you are doing your water changes, not overcrowding and not overfeeding as puff says , I think you can assume that it is some kind of disease.
And I did not have any success using antiparasitics either.

I am experimenting just now with the female guppies as they develop what ever the disease is.They are coming up for 1 year old. I am trying them in a salted tank and adding Ich-ease as well as Pima fix.The temperature is at 68 degrees to slow down the disease. I have had 1 out of 6 fish survive for a couple of months now but her white spot is different than the other fish have. Theirs looks like a fungus but does not respond to antifungal meds.Hers seems to be right into the flesh.
They die within days of developing the spots.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I did read an article that says salt in freshwater is bad bad bad. I also read an article by Joe Gargas blasting Prime. Everyone has an opinion. 

I believe salt in store systems is good for profits because it reduces deaths cause by plopping fish into water with lower TDS than they arrived in and instead moves those deaths to consumers' tanks when they take those fish home. It is bad for consumers because they become the ones to shock the fish and fish disease that once responded well to salt treatment is becoming immune to it. And fish that prefer water with low conductivity will be stressed and more likely to get sick.

I do think salt is a valid therapy for external parasites in fish that don't mind it. Especially Poecilia that often live in estuaries along coasts in mixed salt/fresh environments and cichlids that have historically extended their range by moving along coasts from river to river. 

Salt should not be a 'normal' water addition unless it is part of matching wild water conditions,


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