# Tap water conditioner, raising Ph?



## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

I tested my tapwater today, straight from the faucet. It was just about a perfect 7.0. Then, I tested water that had been treated with API water conditioner. It is supposed to remove chlorine and chloramine, and it isn't supposed to do ANYTHING ELSE. Yet, the treated water had a 7.6 ph. 

Can anyone explain this? Is there any way to get my water to go back down to 7.0? Do those "Ph Down" drops actually work? Or should I just give up and SLOWLY acclimate fish to see if they can live with the higher Ph?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

ff:

Dechlorinates do not "remove chlorine and chloramines" as one would think from their manufacturers' advertisements.

Dechlorinates do reduce chlorine and chloramines to ammonia and byproducts;
then reduce the ammonia to nitrites and byproducts;
and then (the good ones I believe) the nitrites to nitrates and byproducts.

I have not found any literature which explicitly describes these processes (I believe that they may be proprietary).

It does not surprise me that "somewhere" in the above described process the byproducts could raise your Ph (a few other possibilities exist but are less likely) as I have experienced the same but to a lesser degree.

I have used several brands of dechlorinate but currently only use Seachem Prime Water Conditioner.

TR


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

Had the treated water been sitting for awhile? Water that has sat for awhile will have some of the CO2 gone out of it, thus raising the pH.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

This is definately the cause (justonemore20) Straight from your tap is exceedingly depleted of oxygen creating a lower pH.

Your dechlorinator has very little to do with your pH increasing. Although ammonia can increase your pH a bit I feel this is not the main cause at all.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I have heard reports like this before and some "water conditions" say "adds alkalinity" on the label and contain buffers. Are you using the recommended dose? pH Down drops work because they contain an acid. Never add these directly to the tank. I usually say never use these. But know some betta keepers use pH up or pH down to get the new water to 7.0 before every water change. So they can be useful when your water source in inconsistent. Because bettas usually get large water changes, its more important to match pH than for small water changes in large tanks. However, 7.6 is fine pH for bettas, you just don't want to shock them. If you draw the water level down and add the higher pH water slowly over a couple hours, the fish will get acclimated.


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

Here's the water conditioner that I am currently using:









To answer questions:

Yes, the water had been aged for several days. I try to let water sit for a while before adding it.

As far as I know, I am using the recommended dose. On the back of the bottle, it says to use 3 drops per gallon to detoxify chlorine. It says to use 6 drops per gallon to "break the chloramine bond." Do I need to use 6 drops? Or would the 3 be better?

I won't just be using this water for bettas. I need something I can use in my 50 gallon tank as well. This tank will house a couple of small peaceful schools, and probably a couple of angelfish.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Also add the conditioner first,then let it sit for days and test for pH Very soft water is pH sensitive, but it might go back down.

You need the 6 drops if your water system uses chloramine (contact them, but its probable they do at least some of the time). The reason they use chloramine is that it is more stable than chlorine so letting the water sit around won't remove it. Once you break the chloramine bond, ammonia is released. So treat, then *test *your new water *for ammonia*! This is how you know you have chloramine in the water. The old way of dealing with chloramine is to treat to "break the chloramine bond" and then treat the water for ammonia biologically. We had a box filter in a 40 gallon garbage can with a spigot. Now I use Prime which breaks the chloramine bond, removes the chlorine and detoxifies the ammonia. I suggest you switch to seachem "neutral regulator" which includes dechlor and buffers.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> I have not found any literature which explicitly describes these processes


 I went to the Seachem site and they say "the chemistry is not well understood" about Prime's effect on nitrite and nitrate.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Please post the ammonia test results. I'm pretty sure that released ammonia is raising the pH. Where I live the LFS don't even carry the old style dechlor, the only sell "chloramine removers"


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

Thank you emc7 - very helpful info there.

Question though ... if I neutralize the ammonia, will the tank ever cycle? I don't believe ammonia will show up in the test kit if I neutralize it. Even if it's present, I won't be able to see it.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Ammonia "detoxifiers" such as Prime don't affect the cycle as the ammonia is still present and available to the biology. The ammonia is "complexed" with another molecule to make is less harmful to fish. I understand some test kits will show "complexed" ammonia and some won't. I can't tell you which ones, but I'm think Prime is messing up my API nitrate test kit readings (I get 0-10 ppm all the time). I guess you could cycle a tank with tap water if you have enough chloramine in it. If you have been using this stuff all along with no problems, then either the biology in your tank is taking care of the ammonia or you don't have chloramine in your water. If, after treatment with straight dechlor, the ammonia reading is 0, then you're in the clear and something else is causing the pH rise.


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

I'll setup a test jug and let it sit for a few hours, then test. Will post results later today, after I get home from work.


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

Well, I actually WAS using Neutral Regulator, then I thought it was inhibiting my tank from cycling, because of getting rid of the ammonia, so I switched to this new stuff.

I can go back to NR, but how will I ever know the tank is cycled? If ammo isn't showing up, and nitrates aren't showing up... the only thing I'll ever be able to track is nitrites. I'm so confused


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2007)

My water always increases in pH after its sat for awhile. I've done tests of leaving water sitting for 24 hours and the pH rose from about 7.2-7.6....its the gassing off of the CO2, since its an acid when there is less of it, the pH rises. I really believe that is why the pH rose, not because of ammonia. 

Did you ever do an ammonia test, Christina?


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

I've done so many tests for ammonia, I'm about halfway through my bottle of test kit solution. I NEVER got any ammonia showing up, until I stopped using NR and switched to the new stuff. For a long time, I didn't realize the NR was probably the cause of my ammo always showing up as zero. 

That's when I made the switch to the new stuff, which didn't detox ammo - beacuse I thought that if I always detoxed the ammo, I'd never cycle the tank. If I use NR, I will never have any idea WHEN the ammo spikes. I probably won't even ever know that there's ammo in there. That's something I'd like to know, in order to get the tank to cycle properly.


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

BTW, in case you wondered why I am not testing the ammo right NOW, it is because I am at work, and I don't have access to my fish stuff 

When I get home, I will make a jug of tap water and treat it with the stuff that just gets rid of chlorine and chloramine. Then I'll check the ammonia and Ph.

Why does water chemistry have to be so confusing?  Lol


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

JustOneMore20 said:


> My water always increases in pH after its sat for awhile. I've done tests of leaving water sitting for 24 hours and the pH rose from about 7.2-7.6....its the gassing off of the CO2, since its an acid when there is less of it, the pH rises. I really believe that is why the pH rose, not because of ammonia.


I will also set up a jug of water without any water treatment stuff in it, and let it sit overnight, then test the next day and see what the Ph has done. Thanks for the suggestion!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

ff:



FinnFan said:


> Yes, the water had been aged for several days. I try to let water sit for a while before adding it.


this protocol mostly comes "from back in the old days" when potable water producers utilized chlorine instead of chloramines for disinfection of produced water.

Chlorines will dissipate from potable water in a vessel with an open water surface after several days whereas the concentration of chloramines in potable water in a vessel with an open water surface after several days will only diminish slightly.

If you are using tap water where the temperature of the tap water used for WC's can be controlled to be very close to the temperature of the tank water then IMHO aging water is no longer necessary.

If the concern is O2 saturation then merely induce the WC water in to the tank such that large bubbles as well as surface turbulence are created.



FinnFan said:


> As far as I know, I am using the recommended dose. On the back of the bottle, it says to use 3 drops per gallon to detoxify chlorine. It says to use 6 drops per gallon to "break the chloramine bond." Do I need to use 6 drops? Or would the 3 be better?


A url which I found
http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754035
indicates the following:
Directions:
To remove chlorine and detoxify heavy metals: Add 29 drops (1 ml) per 20 U.S. gallons (75.7 L) of tap water being treated.
To detoxify chloramines (break the chlormaine bond): Add 29 drops 1 (ml) per 5 U.S. gallons (18.9 L) of tap water.


ff1:

You have responded in several of my threads and hopefully "I have been around long enough now" to ask you questions which are solely for my edification.



Fishfirst said:


> Straight from your tap is exceedingly depleted of oxygen *creating a lower pH*.


This has not been my experience: has it been yours?

In additition I cannot find any literature which specifically describes the chemistry required to make this assertion and as I am certain that you have one (or can easily find one) could you post it please?
(Please note that my lack of locating the literature may just be due to my limited knowledge of classical chemistry!).




Fishfirst said:


> Your dechlorinator has very little to do with your pH increasing.


Do you have experience which supports this assertion as it is contrary to my experience.
(I am getting old and "just flat cannot remember" the dechlorinates which I "went through" before I, qualitatively, ascertained that Seachem Prime was the dechlorinate which I should use.)

If not could you direct me to a link which describes the byproducts of the ammonia reduction and nitrite reduction as I am certain that the information set forth at that URL would be of significant edification.

TR


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

I did buy that *brand* of water conditioner. But I didn't buy that size bottle. I bought the smaller bottle, which indicates how much you should put in, by drops. I am fairly certain it is 3 drops just for chlorine, or 6 drops to do chloramine as well.

If I just need to oxygenate the water more, can't I add an airstone or two?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

ff:

Many items were posted while I was preparing my post.

Please defer to these items in lieu of mine.



emc7 said:


> I went to the Seachem site and they say "the chemistry is not well understood" about Prime's effect on nitrite and nitrate.


emc:

Either I did not do enough research or I completely overlooked this one
BUT
this assertion by Sachem is a real joke!

In the days of high end mass spectrometers, electron microscopes, centrifuges along with current availability of (what I term) pure water, deuterium and tritium the chemists at Seachem know exactly the reaction chains, the byproducts and the reaction rates of their product is (and these folks have probably modeled the processes with "big iron" by employing stochastic analysis).

IMHO the chemists have "already derived" Seachem's next generation product which the Seachem's Marketing Staff will be able to "boast" of it's benefit's over that of Seachem's competitors and this procuct will be introduced when the Seachem management believes that the introduction will be most beneficial.

TR


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

FinnFan said:


> If I just need to oxygenate the water more, can't I add an airstone or two?


ff:

If you believe that O2 saturation is the "problem" then yes inducing an air stone may increase the O2 saturation but only if the air released from the airstone produces turbulence on the water's surface.

The very small bubbles produced by an airstone contribute very little to virtually no additional oxygen saturation of the water. The turbulence on the water's surface which is created by the current of air bubbles induces O2 into the tank water greater than that produced by a "still surface condition".

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> If I use NR, I will never have any idea WHEN the ammo spikes


I agree, if you are trying to watch a cycle, not seeing any ammonia would kind of mess things up. But if you are introducing ammonia released from chloramine, you need to be aware of it.


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

Yes, I definitely agree with you there, emc. I want to be aware of it, for sure. I think that when the cycling is done, (if not before) I will switch back to NR or Prime. 

I guess I'll just have to keep the best eye on it that I can, and be slow in adding fish. It won't hurt my feelings to hit the LFS every week or two, to buy a couple of new tank inhabitants  Might hurt my bank account though  Ha!


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

Ok, after reading some articles, I'd like to summarize and see what you think.

There are two types of ammonia that tanks deal with. AmmoniA and AmmoniUM. Fish waste is comprised of AmmoniUM. But if ammonium is excreted into water with a pH above seven, it begins reacting with the bases in the water to become ammoniA. AmmoniA can easily pass through the cell membrane of a fish's gills, and thusly is highly toxic. AmmoniUM is a slightly different/larger molecule and cannot pass through as readily as AmmoniA, hence AmmoniUM being "less toxic" to the fish.

Chemicals such as Neutral Regulator or Prime don't actually *remove* the Ammonia, they simply add a substance which changes AmmoniA into AmmoniUM. 

AmmoniA as well as AmmoniUM can be used/eaten by the bacteria you are trying to colonize your tank with. Therefore, using a water conditioner such as NR or Prime won't hurt your cycle, because the AmmoniA/UM will still be in the tank to feed the bacteria, it just won't be able to be absorbed by the fish.

Do I have this straight? 

I know this went off track from PH, but since it entered the conversation, I felt the need to get clear on the subject.


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