# Is this Mollie sick?



## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

*Emaciated mollie a sign of Fish TB?*

Does this Dalmatian Mollie look sick to you? It just seems skinnier and duller than when I got it 4+ months ago. 

Also, the silver mollie seems to have this faint greenishness to its top. It doesn't appear textured, it's just that instead of being silver/white on top, it's greenish. 

Both fish appear to be acting normally and have looked this way for over a month, but they just look funny to me. So if anyone thinks they don't look the way fish are supposed to, please let me know! Thanks!


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## ragnahr (Sep 25, 2008)

wahts the temerature? you might need to reaise the tem. there fins look like there clamping up. 2-3 degrees up. about 28degrees c. put some melefix or pimifix. ones for bacteria and the other for fungle. you want the bacteria one. cant remember which ones which.for the greenish stuff


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## Maztachief (Oct 3, 2008)

Whats your water parameters like? pH, temp, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc. Also, what size tank and what filter are you using? Those sorts of things can make a difference in determining what is making your fish sick.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Oh duh, forgot to include the water parameters. Sorry 'bout that! (I've read all the stickies, I swear!)

pH: 8.2 - no swings, I just have basic water
Temp: 80F (26C) for the Dalmatian, 83 (28C) for the Silver
Ammonia: 0 - I test every week just for kicks
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: I keep in the 20 ppm range
Water hardness: liquid rock...no swings
Silver mollie: 10 gal fry tank with Whisper 30 filter
Dalmatian mollie: 29 gal community tank with AquaClear 50 filter and Whisper 30 filter

Planted tanks, 2.3 wpg lighting, both have airstrips for added O2.

Let me know if I forgot any parameters. Thanks!


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

ragnahr said:


> put some melefix or pimifix. ones for bacteria and the other for fungle. you want the bacteria one. cant remember which ones which.for the greenish stuff


Will this affect the fry in the tank? Are they more sensitive to medications? I have a handful of ghost shrimp in each of the tanks, so maybe I should remove them temporarily. How long before they can go back in?

Also, the Whisper 30 filter media automatically has carbon in it. The cartidges are over a month old, so do you think the carbon is old enough to not absorb the medication?

Thank you so much for your response! There are so many medications out there, I don't want to just go dumping random stuff into the tanks. This really helps.


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## Maztachief (Oct 3, 2008)

I'd actually leave them alone and not add medication. I've used melafix and pimafix but I've noticed the seem to slightly irritate the fish, not that it would hurt them, but I've noticed my gourami's nares tend to look red as though it is bugging his nose a bit. This being so, I'd say to let the fry be and not medicate. 

Also, I have a male silver molly and he has a greenish tint that seems to come from within his body near his head. It seems to me to be a slight amount of transparency where you can see inside to his organs/skull and that color seems to show through. I have some good video of him and should be able to get a clean picture sometime up. But yeah, usually for fungal things its a "cottony growth" that is on their skin not just a tint, or so I am aware of. Also, if they are eating and behaving normally they should be fine. Unless they have an ulcer, behave weirdly, or actually show things coming off of them I wouldn't worry about it. But that's just me.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Maztachief, nice to know I'm not alone with the "discolored" silver mollie. My other silver mollie is prisitine white so that's why I was concerned. Both the above mentioned mollies appear to be fine so I think I'll not do anything yet.

Thanks for your help!


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

And now the silver mollie appears to have a faint red blotch on it. So I dosed with melafix. Grrr...we'll see if I kill all my fish.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

And now the faint red patch it more clear. Here are better pictures. I removed her to my 5gal so she doesn't infect everyone else (if she hasn't already). 

Maztachief was right that the greenish appears to be just clear skin. But the blood, that doesn't look so good. And it looked like the skin there was slightly uneven, perhaps a tiny sore but not sure.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

you know those fish look sick to me. I think their tummies should be rounder than they are. They seem to have a curve upward which in my experience is not a good sign.
With the red blotch under the skin i think they have some internal disease going on.
In the past I have not had much success with treating fish with antibiotics especially by the time they start to go hollow belly and get the red blotches.
Sorry to be negative but I would think either internal parasites of some sort or bacterial septicemia could be possible.
I am not a disease expert, just have had similar things happen to my fish..
The local fish store tells me there are hundreds of fish diseases and we only recognize about 6-7 for sure and have treatments for them.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It looks like Tuberculosis to me.
Bad news.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you to both. I appreciate knowledge, even if it's of the negative type.

If I remove them and put them in a quarantine tank, do you think my other fish will get it? I have a couple more mollies in the tank, as well as 4 sword tails and a bunch of 6 week old fry.

Should I euthanize these fish immediately? Or should I wait it out? I don't want them to suffer needlessly if they're going to die anyway.

Thank you again.

By the way, I thought the belly was too hollow, also, compared to my experience with mollies. That's what started to concern me.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Yes, Euthanize.

Yes, your other fish may get it. Probably will, in fact.

Your best bet, honestly, is to tear everything down, sterilize thoroughly with alcohol & bleach, and start all over again. However, you probably won't want to do that, so instead you can just watch and wait as they all drop like flies, and then finally do it anyway. Oh, sure, you can try cleaning things up in the tank to make it **** & span so as to keep the infection from spreading much, but it will always be there, lurking, waiting for you to let things slip just enough for it to come back with a vengeance. Make no mistake; this is nasty stuff. It can also affect YOU! Yep; this is a disease that humans can catch from fish. Wear gloves when working on this tank and keep your hands away from your face. Letting _Mycobacterium_ into your body via a small cut or any facial "hole" in your head will result in months of great unpleasantness.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

TOS, thanks for the recommendation. I found this helpful article regarding fish tuberculosis.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Keefer_FishTB.html

Regarding tear down procedures: I have 3 tanks and honestly can't remember which of my fish have come in contact with which others of my fish...

29gal planted community
10gal planted grow out tank with a few females 
5 gal bare bottomed fry tank

Do I need to dispose of the soil media and plants in all of these tanks? And euthanize ALL fish? I'm tempted to let the majority "wait and see" but I also don't really want to be harbouring TB in my house for me and my cats to catch.

I'm assuming toss the filter media and bleach all containers/decorations. Can you bleach the AquaClear ceramic bio beads? And then just dechlorinate the heck out of everything? (And I guess this means, no, I won't be returning those other swordtails we talked about. I don't want to give them a hidden, terrible disease)

Thank you for your support in this.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

If the other fish seem okay, then they might actually BE okay. Just clean the tank and give them a chance. By clean the tank I mean sterilize.
Yes, you can bleach the beads.
Make sure that you rinse, rinse, rinse & soak everything very thoroughly and use triple the dose of dechlorinator at least. Let everything sit a couple of days before trying to get the tank reestablished.
After all that, it's really unwise to return your fish, but you might as well do it. With any luck they won't be harboring anything, or it will fade away if they are carrying. At least it will be out of the tank, which means they won't get it if they already don't have it. Only eturn the healthiest looking fish to the tank, of course; any signs of sunken bellies or pinched backs means they must never return.

Oh, and absolutely ditch the dirt and plants. That's where the stuff lives, after all.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Here's my plan:

Wear gloves while doing all the following:

Euthanize the two fish that look sick (am I jumping the gun here? I can isolate them in a 5 gallon by themselves as long as they're not suffering)

Throw away all the soil, plants, and filter media. (Is there any way to sterilize the soil and reuse? In terrestrial plants, greenhouses steralize soil as a matter of course. I'll have to research steralizing aquatic soil.)

Bleach everything, including filter hard goods, ornaments, fish keeping tools.

Rinse several times, then over-dechlorinate to remove traces of bleach.

Re-introduce fish that appear healthy. And don't buy anymore fish for a while to make sure they're all truly healthy. (How do I avoid killing all my fish while the tank cycles anew?)

Thanks for the advice.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Found these links regarding soil sterilization. I wonder how many of the nutrients are lost in this? Another thing I'll have to research...

http://www.archaeology.hawaii.edu/handouts/soilster.htm

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/tbc.php


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I would euthanize with the clove oil right away- they are not going to recover( the thin ones).
There is a good product called Seachem Stability.
I have had good luck with it setting up a couple of tanks. Follow the instructions carefully.Never had a spike of anything. You can use lots of hornwort or other fast growing plant as well to soak up the ammonia if you get any. I often stick part of a vine type house plant into the water or spider plant- they help soak up the ammonia as well.And of course you can go the water change route.
Best of luck.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I've got lots of spider plant so I'll do that. I just don't have the energy to do W/C on a 29 or 55 gallon daily!

I'm researching new types of soil/substrate. If I buy Eco Complete that supposedly comes cycled. When I purchased this last batch, it came in a plastic bag that had quite a bit of water in it and the soil was soaked.

So sad to lose all my plants. But oh well, they've done so well, it shouldn't be hard to start over again. And this time, I know what I really need and what I don't, so I won't waste as much money...hopefully.

I just acquired a 55 gallon so maybe I'll take this starting over as an opportunity to set up the 55 instead.

Taking a big deep breath.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, you could always put the plants into a separate new tank by themselves. In several months they might even be safe to mix with fish again.

Sterilizing the soil.. you can do that if you really want to, but I personally don't see the point in it when replacing it is easier.
Stability is great stuff that can eliminate your cycling worries completely, and the tank is cycled in a week.
Eco-Complete is also a good way to go, and I'd use both if given the chance.

Mycobacterium likes things dirty. Keeping the tank scrupulously clean will go a very long way toward keeping the stuff from becoming a problem again. I don't mean nice, clean dirt, though; I mean filth. Keep the filth from piling up and the bacteria will not have a good place to grow.

As for medicine.. there are no practical treatments. The very few treatments that work are prohibitively expensive ( human grade stuff ) and don't even work all that well. No quick & easy fix for this one, I'm afraid, so prevention is key.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

TheOldSalt said:


> Well, you could always put the plants into a separate new tank by themselves. In several months they might even be safe to mix with fish again.


Yeah, not worth having another complete tank set up just for them.



> Sterilizing the soil.. you can do that if you really want to, but I personally don't see the point in it when replacing it is easier.


It may be easier to buy new stuff, but I'm in financial straits at the moment...but again, I'm not sure if I have the heart or energy to sterilize it.




> Stability is great stuff that can eliminate your cycling worries completely, and the tank is cycled in a week.


 I think I can get this at one of my LFS.



> I don't mean nice, clean dirt, though; I mean filth. Keep the filth from piling up and the bacteria will not have a good place to grow.


Dumb question for you, how do you gravel vac your soil without sucking all the soil up the tube? I try to vacuum all the ornaments and hardgoods but I don't really vacuum the substrate. I don't SEE anything yet, but the tank is only a 6 weeks old (with this particular substrate) so I'm sure given the change, it will eventually build up.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

You vacuum by keeping the siphon hose high enough to avoid sucking up the soil, but low enough to make a little tornado that sucks up the stuff lying on it. It takes a bit of practice to get the hang of it.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Maybe there's not just much mulm there. I've done this, perhaps not perfectly so I'll keep practicing.


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