# I got stuck, need help



## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

I am stuck in the middle of cycling a 29 g. with 3 Molly and 2 Cory and 1 Otto. The tank is at:
0 - ammonia
1+ - Nitrite ( I can't really tell if it is 1 or 5)
20 - Nitrate 
ph about 8
temp 79

On day 30 the ammonia dropped to 0 and the nitrites began to rise to 1.
They stayed that way for 14 days. I did 8-10 G water change with siphoning of gravel at least every other day because of the look of the fish.

On day 44 I finally found someone who had a few rocks and some water with bio media in them. Put them in my tank and the Nitrates went up to 20. the other water levels stayed the same.

I feel bad about doing this non-fishless. 

Do you think I am close or should I give these fish away?
if I gave the fish away would I switch over to adding ammonia again?
I'm just lost and worried about these fish.
I hate that there is most likely damage to them already

The nitrites don't seem to change with water changes and it's been 16 days of them over 1.

Please give me any suggestions, help?


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Fishpeeps, 
Im not totally sure what is going on in your tank but it is really messed up, not only are both your nitrites and nitrates too high, but you pH is also too high. Are you sure that your heater is working right because I have found if there is a crack in the heater it will continually ruin the water in your tank. Its weird for there to be no ammonia but also have high nitrates and nitrites. Id say check the heater or replace it and see if that doesn't help, because if your water is this bad its probably best for you to give the fish away and restart the tank. Also it could be good to list all the artificial decorations and the type of rocks you have in your tank because some of them can slowly raise the pH as well.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

fp:

I do not believe that you are in as bad a shape as you believe that you are but I really need to know the size of your and to have you provide a link to your filtration equipment.

TR


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## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

I have the API master test kit. When I do Low PH I get readings of 7.6 the max. When I do High range pH I get a color that doesn't seem to match anything, but I'd say between 7.8-0. I just tested both tank and tap water and they are the same. 

My filtration is HOB Cascade 200 filters 185 GPH. It has a floss/carbon and a sponge. I have about a 6 inch air stone in there also. The water level is lower than normal so there is more of a fall from the filter.

I have small gravel I purchased at a local aquarium store and several pieces of wonderstone, also purchased at the aquarium store.

I have several fake plants.

My heater has stayed constant. I do check it daily and I see no cracks.

I was wondering if I should do a large water change, then do another back to back and see if I can get the Nitrite down.

Is 20 not good for Nitrates? They just went up in the last two days after introducing the rocks and water from the friend.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Im not familiar with wonderstone, make sure it isn't like lava rock, some large stones slowly dissolve in water and raise the pH 
Filtration seems to be enough, your not overstocked, heater is fine...
pet store gravel and fake plants are usually harmless..
As far as big water changes go, normally its better to do small water changes (10-20%) once or twice a week to slowly lower the nitrates than it is to do a large water change once, if you do do a large water change, make sure you don't over clean the water because that is deadly to fish as well. 
It sounds to me like there is something wrong so a water change would be the last resort ..
otherwise there is some other unknown factor going on


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## SouthernBelle23 (Mar 24, 2009)

Cycles can take 4-6 weeks...sometimes longer. Nothing sticks out to me that says "Thats what you're doing wrong!".  I think you are doing everything like you should. The nitrite spike phase is the one that seems to take the longest. Keep doing water changes....daily if you can....of about 10-20%....recheck before the next water change and see what the numbers show. You'll get through this eventually. I wouldn't give up just yet. Water changes won't hurt your cycle.

Is your test kit new? They do expire....so if its not new, it might be worth getting atleast a new nitrite kit.

When you are cycling with fish, water changes are your friend. You want to do them often.

Your pH is a little high....but its fine. Don't mess with it....that usually does more harm than good. Your nitrates are fine too. 20 isn't high. Those 20 most likely came from the stuff you got from the established tank. Don't worry about that now.

Keep doing water changes....you'll get through it! How are the fish acting/looking?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Not much to add. Many LFSs will test water for you, at least with the strips. It doesn't hurt to "test the test", as indicated, reagents can go bad from old age. And you can get false positives if the tank water is tinted by meds or peat. If you have fish in the tank, you want to change enough water to get down into the "safe" range of nitrite. A water conditioner that "detoxifies" nitrite such as Prime or Amquel+ will also help the fish survive high nitrite. A piece of your friend's filter media, say a snip off the corner of the cartridge, would be more helpful than rocks. I agree the nitrate came from the old water, its not high enough to worry about.


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## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

The Nitrates did go from 10-20 the day after I introduced the rocks and water.

I checked my tap water and the pH is 7.4-7.8, the tank is definitely high from something.

My research on the Wonderstone/rhyolite rocks said they were acidic. so for now I've removed them.

I do use Prime daily. 

It seems the fish do well for about 30 hours then start to show signs of distress. Thus I have done a lot of water changes, about 6-8 gallons at a time. I guess 10-20% would b 3-6, so maybe I've done too much.

When I take a Nitrite reading after a water change there is no difference.

At this point, riding it out is about all I can do with the hope it cycles. 

Thank you for all your help and suggestions!

I guess what frustrates me the most is I looked all over town for pure ammonia and could not find any. At the time cycling fishless with the pure ammonia was the only other alternative I knew of at the time other than cycling with hardy fish. I went with that and of course several days later found the pure ammonia in an obscure shop. 

If I ever cycle again, I'm doing it fishless. I hate to think of hurting these little buggars!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't think you can do too much of a water change when your fish are in distress. A 20% change will drop the nitrites 20%. So if the number is 5 ppm it should go to 4 ppm. If you need it lower, you need a bigger change. Test the tap water for nitrites and ammonia, its not unheard of for the source to be contaminated.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

fp: I slobbered up in the verbiage of my previous post but based upon your subsequent posts I believe that you have a 40G tank.



fishpeeps said:


> My filtration is HOB Cascade 200 filters 185 GPH. It has a floss/carbon and a sponge. I have about a 6 inch air stone in there also. The water level is lower than normal so there is more of a fall from the filter.


The carbon is not allowing the cycle to occur.

The *Cascade 200* is rated at 150GPH which implies an actual flow of 2X hourly turnover of your 40G tank water which is not sufficient.




fishpeeps said:


> Is 20 not good for Nitrates? They just went up in the last two days after introducing the rocks and water from the friend.


20 should be OK especially for a planted tank.

TR


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## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

I do have a 29 G, or it may even register out at 28 gall. The dimensions are 30 L x 18 h x 12 d.

The filter is for up to 50 g, pumping 185 GPH. Which I believe would be a turnover of 6+ times and hour?


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## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

I looked online for the Cascade 200 and there seems to be a couple different one's. The one I have Cascade 200 by pennplax is the one that filters at 185 GPH. They must have changed it?



I looked up the sponge pads I have
Carbon

Ammonia

I have had the carbon filter in from the beginning (Recommendation of LFS) 

Could that be slowing or messing up my cycle? Use of the carbon/floss cartridges and the carbon sponge?

I am quit confused about this whole filter and am about ready to go buy another. The cut-to-fit filter pad label says to replace every 2 weeks or so. But, that is the place the whole system talks about storing the bio media. So If I did that, I'd be messing up my cycle ever two weeks. 

I have taken it out and rinsed it in old tank water.

So opinions please...
1. Is this a crappy set up?
2. I need a HOB filter, should I change out and buy a new one? 
3. Which one?
4. Am I correct in the sponge is where the bio media settles most and keeps the cycle going?
5. If I stay with this filter should I put in the ammonia pad, the carbon pad or buy something else?

any recommendations?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You don't ever want to toss a filter and switch to a new uncycled one without overlap. I am always in favor of adding a second filter. Its valuable insurance and then you can later move one to a QT or hospital tank with no worries. Some filters are better than others, but any filter with adequate flow and decent media should work. You could try a flow-meter to see if you are getting the rated amount out of the filter, but really you can tell by looking at the output if you are getting a decent flow. You should know what good flow looks like and clean the impeller and the intake tube if it slows down. 

The ammonia pad could interfere with the cycle. If it grabs the ammonia out of the water, its better for your fish short-term, but because it would starve you bio-media, you tank would become uncycled and when the pad is exhausted, your fish would be hit with an ammonia spike followed by a nitrite spike like it was a brand new tank. 

Rinsing old carbon with old-tank water is what most of us do. New carbon takes out meds and gets rid of that oily film on the water, but you have to toss all the biology on the old carbon out. You are correct that this isn't wise in a half-cycled tank.


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## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

Well to throw in the mix, one of my Molly had Fry today. 5 were not quit all the way developed, the other 5 are swimming around the holding tank, resting, eating, swimming. 

About 2 weeks ago one Molly had 8 babies that only lived 24 hours. I hope this time someone makes it, but with the water this way, who knows?

It makes it tough to do a water change though. 

I do have a small 1.5 g tank with a small air driven filter and heater. I have the filter pad from that in my big tank, but since it hasn't finished cycling I wouldn't think there would be any benefit to moving the fry to the small tank. Thoughts?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> The ammonia pad could interfere with the cycle.


em: right, wrong or indifferent I believe that activated carbon also "as you put it" interferes with the cycle as it is "very aggressive stuff" not only with respect to inorganic molecules but also with respect to organic molecules and life forms.




emc7 said:


> Rinsing old carbon with old-tank water is what most of us do.


fp: after like 7 to 28 days the "activation" of the activated carbon is usurped and the carbon media no longer functions for chemical filtration but please refer to the following comment also.




emc7 said:


> ... but you have to toss all the biology on the old carbon out.


em: Again I believe that once "the activation" is gone the carbon media functions as biological filtration media and also as mechanical filtration media due the very small grain size.




fishpeeps said:


> (Recommendation of LFS)


fp: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The next time you visit the LFS ask them the physical properties of activated carbon that caused them to make the recommendation to you please.

Please post their response for our enjoyment.




fishpeeps said:


> Could that be slowing or messing up my cycle? Use of the carbon/floss cartridges and the carbon sponge?


Absolutely per EM and my previous comment in this post.



fishpeeps said:


> I am quit confused about this whole filter and am about ready to go buy another. The cut-to-fit filter pad label says to replace every 2 weeks or so. But, that is the place the whole system talks about storing the bio media. So If I did that, I'd be messing up my cycle ever two weeks.
> 
> I have taken it out and rinsed it in old tank water.
> 
> ...


fp: you are getting frustrated but no use wasting money.

As em indicated with your setup a second filter is probably appropriate but IMHO trash canning your current filter is inappropriate.

Take the ammonia pad out.

Leave the carbon pad in as I have previously explained.

The sponge is functioning as mechanical and biological filtration media.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Remind me what other fish you have. The main reason for moving fry away from the parents is to keep them from being eaten. Mollies eat less of their fry than other fish because they eat more veggies and their fry are quite large. A small tank will also make it easy for them to find food. The disadvantage of such a small tank is that you must change water daily, if not more often.


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## fishpeeps (Apr 15, 2009)

I have appreciated all your support, here is an update.

Was out at the LFS's yesterday and decided to buy a new filter, got a Penguin 200 bio-wheel power filter, 200GPH up to 50 G.

The Cascade just didn't make sense to me as their instructions said to replace the sponge every two weeks,

I took the sponge out of the Cascade and put it in the extra slot in the penguin. Actually put it in front of instead of behind, so for a while there was actually blowing all the crap back into the tank. 

After I realized what I'd done, and because of the complete murkiness of the tank I did another (had previously done an 8 g. water exchange earlier that day before I put in the new filter) 6 G water change.

So anyway my readings this am were good.
Ammonia = 0
Nitrites .5
Nitrates 10

I guess I'll see tomorrow which way they are heading. It may have been the big water change or it may be settling?????
I plan to leave the old sponge in for a while, to seed the bio wheel.

The babies are all alive and have seemed to grow. I can't believe how much bigger they look in just 36 hours. I got them a breeder net, for now they have ton of room for the 6, (the next day we found one swimming in the big tank) I think they'll be able to stay their till they are big enough to go out.

Other than that, the 3 female molly are happy, the two Cory are happy and the Otto is happy!

I am a bit more relaxed and anxiously looking forward to adding someone new in the future

Thanks again!


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