# Pointed/clamped pectoral fins



## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

Of the shipment of 12, I now have 7 left. These have died with varying reasons. Some were from stress, from ph shock, and from shipping issues. 
Of the remaining 7, only 3 of them are _not_ experiencing the symptoms of the others and eating/acting normally.
The sick ones have their pectoral fins clamped to the point that they look...well...pointed. Their tails _were_ clamping, which made me panic a week ago, but after a cocktail of formalin, triple sulfa, melafix, their tails have stopped clamping. However, their pectoral fins have not, and are still as pointed as ever. My first thought was 'clamped fins disease' but everything I could find on it said 'that's a symptom, not the cause'.
So, does anyone have a cure? :-(


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

One more death to add to this. Anyone have any ideas?


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Are there any more details you can give? Clamped fins is a symptom of almost every disease and ailment. 

Start with giving us specific numbers.
pH
Temperature
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate

If you can get it, KH would also be helpful.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite are all at 0 as I'm doing daily water changes on the hospital tank they're in. PH is about 8.5 and temp is 75 degrees. 
I don't have a test kit for KH and GH, but I do add a few drops of plant food, which has magnesium and calcium in it.
As for other details, gills look slightly...off. I can't put my finger on it, but its like the area just BEHIND the gills has sunken in a bit, or the gills are inflamed or something. I only notice this with the recently dead fish though. Could it be gill parasites? Something that the formalin WON'T kill?
Otherwise, its just that their pectoral fins have been closed to the extent that they are pointed, and sometimes frayed looking at the edges. Finrot perhaps?
I just went out and bought some Epson salt today. Would this help them at all? (I'm also curious if it will hurt my snails, seeing as its a muscle relaxant, and what measurements to dose per gallon?)


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

5 left, with 2 more on the way out. One is extremely pregnant. At this point, I've given up trying to save them. *bangs head on desk* However, I would LIKE to keep the pregnant female alive long enough to save her fry. She looks like she can only be a couple days away from birthing. Any ideas on how to make this happen? She's turning away all food. 
Would adding Epson salt make her feel more comfortable?


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Well. I think I've figured it out...
Chances are, the fish have TB.
Signs:
lethargic, hollow bellied, pale, show skin ulcers and frayed fins, have fin and scale loss, and loss of appetite.
Of these symptoms, I think the hollow bellied is the one that worries me the most. I think that is what I was seeing and not understanding, in the area just behind their gils. Their fins have been eating away at themselves and/or closing, even though I've treated for fin rot. Their appetites are the first to go, and of course their lethargic if their fins are all messed up. Colorful fish that were in the pictures were not colorful upon arrival (which I attributed to shipping). This is the only thing I can see killing the fish so FAST.
Edit: And, of course, when I knew what to look for, I saw that one of my JUST dead has skin ulcers. *sigh* Down to one infected now. Just hope she births soon.
My new question is...is this contagious to my fish? I read that its caused by water quality, but I'm also worried that the fry will be susceptible to it. Anyone have any experience with it?


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## iheartfish:) (Jan 19, 2011)

Not very humane or recommendable in the least by most standards, but if you are positive that she won't survive long enough to drop, try.... Massaging them out? I had a female guppy (and please, please, please, no haters) that for some reason was about to die (I knew for sure!.. Well, at least as well as you can know), and out of desperation I performed a "c-section". Now, I have read in guppy books that when a fish is very constipated, you can gently massage it to help it pass the excrement. I have no idea if that would work, although in my opinion it would damage the slime coat and maybe scales.

Anyway, I massaged the fry out of her (having quickly killed her, so as to minimize stress. She was going to die anyway). 

It worked. There were three fry that immediately swam to the surface of the container. The problem was that they were too premature, so none survived. However, I have always wanted to try again... Just to see if it would work. 

If you are desperate for the fry and sure she will die (as the case seems to be), try the massaging thing. Just, I don't think I would recommend euthanizing her with clove oil as it might harm the fry. 

If you do actually try it, report how it went? If not, please don't get angry with me... That goes for everyone. I am very sorry if some people disagree with what I did.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

iheartfish:) said:


> Not very humane or recommendable in the least by most standards, but if you are positive that she won't survive long enough to drop, try.... Massaging them out? I had a female guppy (and please, please, please, no haters) that for some reason was about to die (I knew for sure!.. Well, at least as well as you can know), and out of desperation I performed a "c-section". Now, I have read in guppy books that when a fish is very constipated, you can gently massage it to help it pass the excrement. I have no idea if that would work, although in my opinion it would damage the slime coat and maybe scales.
> 
> Anyway, I massaged the fry out of her (having quickly killed her, so as to minimize stress. She was going to die anyway).
> 
> ...


I have thought of this many times over the last few days as I watched her condition get worse. I spent $80 for these fish, so I'm pretty much desperate to get some good flipping breeders out of them.
I've battled many diseases from petstore fish in the past, and wondered 'could i have saved the fry' so many times I've lost count. Considering how large this female is, I think the fry wouldn't be TOO premature, and she's probably ready to drop them, but just too stressed/sick to do so. 
I'm afraid that just straight out 'massaging' would squish the poor fry, so I may try the 'c-section' thing you suggested. The fish have TB. They aren't going to get better.


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## Kimberly (Jan 22, 2012)

That is a hard call to make. But you both make good points. If the female is going to die, its worth a try to save the fry. That way they have a chance to live even if the mother is too far gone. Just make sure you euthanize her before saving the babies.

Good luck, and please keep us updated on how it goes.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

Well, it was done. *sigh* Very emotionally draining. I won't go into the details, but the results were:

80+ severely underdeveloped fry that immediately broke from their eggs, only unable to swim, thus dying.
Half of these were dead on arrival, having died within her. (the eggs turn grey about 5 hours after being released in 'egg laying' guppies, thus showing that they are dead)

I have 5 eggs that were not broken, not dead, and are MAYBE going to hatch. I put them in a containment tank with an airstone and meth. blue, hoping to treat them as normal eggs, but I'm not sure if they will survive or not.

End thoughts:
She was most likely bloating before she had even died. Granted, there were 80+ eggs in her, but for her to look so ready to birth, she had to have some bloating going on.


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## Kimberly (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm really sorry to hear that . You did the best you could, keep that in mind


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

Kimberly said:


> I'm really sorry to hear that . You did the best you could, keep that in mind


Thanks  I can only hope that the babies I got lucky with on another female(who died shortly after) will grow to be healthy.


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## iheartfish:) (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm so sorry. I can say that I honestly know how you felt, except for you it was worse. It really is draining to have to do that. I'm sorry that they were premature... I hoped that maybe they would be more mature. 

Second failure for this technique. I guess I'll stop wanting to repeat the experiment.

How many original fish do you have left? This sounds like a horrible disappointment; 80$ and how many fish dead?


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

$80 was for 6 fish. He messed up my shipment and sent 6 more. So, of the 12, I have 3 left. :/ 1 from each strain, 1 being a male.

I may attempt the experiment in the future. Hopefully with different outcome. But here's hoping that there's no need for it. :/


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## iheartfish:) (Jan 19, 2011)

I know. It feels horrible. 
Have you contacted the seller? Maybe he can replace your fish, seeing as it seems that the TB came from his tanks, right?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Not necessarily. There were guppies in the house before these. Although we usually QT to protect old fish from new fish. Old fish, their water, filters, buckets, really anything wet can transmit disease to new fish. And the old fish don't have to be sick, just carriers. 

I've had something similar happen with angels. I put out a new, clean tank, put the angels in and they do great until somehow I give them whatever killed my last angels. I had like 3 angels survive with no symptoms, so they were immune. I have sworn off angels. I'm going to go a few years without Angles at all and then try again. 

I really sympathize. It just sucks big-time to watch helplessly as fish after fish gets sick and dies.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

...that is a good thought Emc7...
Honestly, I had no clue what killed off the last shipment, and I had just assumed that it was columnaris, as that's what they gave to my other fish...its possible it could have been a combination of the two...I had thought it was strange that I had no real issue with DISEASE, until I got the second shipment from the guy...But that's always a possibility.
As it is, I do NOT want to ask for any more fish from him. Its blatantly obvious that I won't be able to keep them alive, and I already have 50+ fry to work with from one of the females. I'll just wait for them to grow up and work from there.


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## iheartfish:) (Jan 19, 2011)

At least you have fry! Otherwise, it would really suck.


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