# Fish Bowl



## raquel (Aug 26, 2006)

What can you keep in one?
I have a lot of ppl ask me that qestion and my answer to them is I would only keep a betta in one. What are your thoughts on this?
Also smaller "starter tanks"?


Rochelle


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

I'm a firm believer in nothing smaller than a 1g tank. Fitration is best but if they do get a large enough fish "bowl" type deal, its manageable as long as they understand they have to do daily water changes, faithfully.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Even a betta may be too cold in a plain bowl. The inexpensive mini starter tanks really aren't much better. The light is an incandescent bulb, hot when on and poor light quality. They aren't so much starter kits as much as ender kits. Too small to really get a steady cycle going, fish die, people get frustrated and quit. The exception for me has been Eclipse 6s. Using my own media, not the cartridges I have had good luck with mine but I used experience I gained with larger tanks to set it up for success.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

I have 25w heaters in my small tanks from 1-3g and they work quite well. And the incandescent bulbs can be replaced with fluorescent bulbs, which is what I did. I've never had a problem keeping mine cycled and have not lost a single fish in the smaller tanks, and those are the ones I started off with. It can be done as long as its done carefully.


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## raquel (Aug 26, 2006)

What kind of fish have you had in these tanks that have been successful?....with filter systems.
My reason for asking is that we sell a lot of those where I work, and ppl then ask me what they should put in them.


thanks for your input.

Rochelle


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I've used 2 & 1/2 gallon bowls as hospital, show and egg incubator tanks, but all of those are temporary uses and thats about as small as I go.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> I have 25w heaters in my small tanks from 1-3g and they work quite well. And the incandescent bulbs can be replaced with fluorescent bulbs, which is what I did. I've never had a problem keeping mine cycled and have not lost a single fish in the smaller tanks, and those are the ones I started off with. It can be done as long as its done carefully.


But you aren't a beginner. Most beginners do not get an education about cycling at the store, I wish they did and I am sure some stores do but it is not the majority. A lot of the things experienced fish keepers take for granted don't even occur to beginners to ask about. And 2-3 gallons is less forgiving than 10G.

When a 3 gallon tank portrays 10 or 15 gallons worth of fish as being able to be kept in it, according to the picture on the box, sometimes people believe what they want to believe, ignoring the good knowledgeable advice of a well trained store employee if one is available.

And the last part of the equation is buying fish which are still growing and may get big. Back around full circle. All those pitfalls will be considered and avoided by an experienced person but rarely do people get a full working knowledge in a month or two. Even if the store counsels the customer very well on every aspect of good care, it's a lot to absorb in a short time and I wonder how much is really retained.

What would I keep in a mini tank which is heated and filtered? 2 or 3 male guppies or shrimp or a small cray or a mystery snail or of course a betta.

Many of the smaller fish like tetras are schooling fish and I would only keep a half dozen minimum which is too many for those mini tanks. Something like the good old tough zebra danio is another which needs a school to be at their best and are so active those little tanks don't have enough room for their active swiming style.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

rba said:


> But you aren't a beginner.


Yes, I was when I first started and my first couple of tanks were mini tanks.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I have cycled several 1 gallon pickle jars and tall "goldfish" bowls. I keep bettas in them and I keep them in a room that is always heated to 74 degrees.I use a small Penn plax mini filter.
I know some of you will say that is too cold for the betta, but it is a consistant temperature and a compromise between the plants needs , the fish needs and the husband.

good news-- at Big Al's they now carry a 7.5 watt heater for mini tanks. It does not seem to have thermostat altho I have not looked at it too closely.
It lays flat against the side of the container and is about $17 CND.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

I highly recommend against those flat heaters. I tried one and it raised the temp in my 2.5g tank by 10 degrees, way too hot for my tank, even for a betta. I recommend against getting any heaters that are pre-set that can't be adjusted.


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

i keep my young betta in quart jar, but i don't want any beginner to do this. also, i don't cycle my jar. i just do 100% water change. what i want to say is it is possible to keep fish healthy in something less than a gallon, but it is not beginner thing and not recommand anyone to do it unless you have experience with fish keeping. until you get how to keep the fish healthy, then don't even think about those jar. get a 10 gallon tank. it is only $10.


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## raquel (Aug 26, 2006)

See, that's what really gets me! They advertise these things as begginner or starter tanks and ppl are mislead, then when I tell them they can't put 5 golfish in there they are so surprised...argh

Rochelle


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Many killifish do well in small tanks (not bowls!) but they MUST have a lid. Sadly, you probably wont find many killies available at a LFS tho so its not much of an option for a beginner shopping at the LFS.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Yes, I was when I first started and my first couple of tanks were mini tanks.


Sorry, forgot you are always right. My bad. Yeah, mini tanks are great for those just starting out.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> , its manageable as long as they understand they have to do daily water changes, faithfully.


 this is what people don't get told. The bigger the tank, the more stable, the longer you can go between water changes, the safer all around. Where I live, you can get a 2.5, a 5 or a ten for the same price. It no more trouble to change 4 gallons in a bucket than 1 gallon by pitchers, so go bigger whenever possible. The only exception is eggs, I still sometime incubate in a 1 gallon jar to be sure they get aerated.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

rba, do you have an actual point to make in the discussion or are you just going to resort to juvenile behavior? I never said they were great for beginners, just that they were doable if done right.

emc7, while the prices may be comparable (actually for us, 10g kits are cheaper than the smaller ones), its not always price that's an issue for beginners. Many of them I've talked to and listened to either don't think they have the space for a larger one (especially college kids) or are intimidated by the size of a 10g tank and figure a smaller tank is easier to get their feet wet and easier to take care of. Since they don't have any experience, they don't know that its easier to maintain a larger tank and its sometimes difficult to convince them of that. They also see a larger tank as more expensive in terms of livestock - you have to put more fish in it to make use of all the space. 

As long as they are sold, people will buy the smaller kits, just like they buy the stupid crap sold for bettas, and no one will be able to convince them that they aren't a great idea until/unless they learn otherwise. But we can try to do as much as possible to help them be successful and try to keep the fish from dying.

Raquel, sorry, I missed your earlier question. You can do bettas of course, or African dwarf frogs, some killifish, glolight tetras, and a few others that stay pretty small and don't need a lot of room. Most aren't commonly available in LPSes though.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> rba, do you have an actual point to make in the discussion or are you just going to resort to juvenile behavior? I never said they were great for beginners, just that they were doable if done right.


Tried twice to contribute to the discussion, you told me I was wrong. I've used a flat Hydor mini heater with very satisfactory results but no point in posting the set up it worked well in because you have deemed them bad. Everyone repeat after me. "Tina is always right".


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

rba said:


> Tried twice to contribute to the discussion, you told me I was wrong. I've used a flat Hydor mini heater with very satisfactory results but no point in posting the set up it worked well in because you have deemed them bad. Everyone repeat after me. "Tina is always right".


it is amazing that you go nuts over nothing. no one said she is always right, i just point out that keep fish in less than a gallon can be done, i prove her she is not 100% right on that with my personal experience. now she just have bad experience with the heater you mention and you freak out over it.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

freak out? no, just bored to death with the same old fish mulm. even tried to be complimentary and acknowledge her considerable experience. go on beat a dead horse for another day or three. gonna go plug in my hydor mini heater. where's the falling asleep smilie? "zzzzzzzzzz" bye! :fun:


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

does that mini heater have any control on it and if not what temperature is it built to be at?
I am really interested in them. LFS has them in a 5 gal tank.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

There's no temperature control or thermostat in them. They are advertised to raise the temp just a few degrees but mine raised my tank 10 degrees, from 76 to 86 - far too much for my fish. I use 25w heaters in all of my small tanks from 1g up.


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

I have somewhere between 5-10 of those hydor heaters. I've had no problems with mine but I did test them out first. Tina is that the only one of those that you have tried? Perhaps you got a defective one. I have bought several heaters of varying brands that were defunct on arrival.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Yup, that's the only one. Didn't want to waste anymore money so I just stick to the 25w heaters. Things that I can't adjust or control make me very nervous.


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## Dr_House (Aug 15, 2006)

rba said:


> go on beat a dead horse for another day or three. gonna go plug in my hydor mini heater.


Aren't you supposed to keep those plugged in all the time? :lol: Oh wait, lost my place..."Tina is always right...Tina is always right...Hail Mary full of grace..." :lol:

This is the magic of having a brain. Everyone's thought processes and experiences lead them to make different connections which are called "opinions". Everyone has their own opinion, and at some point, their opinion will differ from yours. It doesn't mean you get mad and sarcastic and start attacking a person's character. 

You said you tried to contibute, rba, and you have actually contributed. That is the nature of discourse; everyone contributes what they believe. Some will be right, some will be wrong, and in many instances, right and wrong are not factors; it is a matter of differing experience. 

I agree with Boxermom in regard to being able to set a heater to a specific temperature rather than trusting it to "know" how much to warm my tank. I have no experience with flat heaters, and I've not had a heater with a thermostat that will get closer than 6 degrees to the temperature at which it is set, but it makes me feel better, so that is what I use. 

If you have different experience, you should share it. However, it is rather juvenile and degrading to yourself to get upset when someone respectfully disagrees with you, regardless of the pervasiveness of that type of conduct. I hope you will be able to set aside such futility and continue your contributions.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

excellent point Dr. House


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Ditto...

If you spend your time getting upset whenever someone's opinion differs from yours, well, you're going to be upset a lot of the time.

Think of it this way: if someone posted that they had great experiences with a certain product, and then you posted your personal experience which was not so fortunate - would you expect them to get angry over this?


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Still beating that dead horse I see. *yawn*

1: I think small so called *starter tanks* under 5G are a very poor choice for beginners. Too many reasons to bother to list past what I have mentioned in previous posts in this thread. You know, all those things you DON'T quote.

2: Hydor mini heaters are only 9w. My experience is like Christine's, no problems, perfomance as advertised. I like that there is no glass to break and that they can be left, plugged in, out of the water with no damage. Pull it out, change the water, put it back. No reaching for the powerstrip.

During my school days (SS frames, slate bottoms) I worked part time at a LFS. The owner bred some fish out back. The big breeder tanks always had at least 2 heaters, always undersized. He explained that if one had the contacts stick ON the undersized heater could not overheat the tank and the other heater(s) would stay off. I have always followed his logic, small tanks (10G) have one undersized heater (25w), large tanks have 2 undersized heaters. I don't care if using undersized heaters may cause them to wear out sooner. The alternative is overheating/killing what could be hundreds of dollars worth of fish in one tank.

Last winter 3 heaters stuck on, 2 were relatively new. I don't know how many heaters I have, a LOT, so it's not a HUGE percentage. Different manufactures, a visi-therm, a theo and something else, pro heat or something like that, also an electronically controlled fully submersable. No $5 non-submersibles. Even the best heaters CAN, and do, stick ON.

If a 25w heater stuck on in one of my smallest tanks the fish would be dead in hours. *IME* the flat mini heaters hold a very acceptable steady temp and cannot overheat the fish. My Eclipse 6s have 25w heaters but only because that room is so cold, 60F-65F.

Interesting how no one quotes the input I had on the OP's question. Or when I tried to give the boxermom credit for her experience. Or that all you hypocrites are being less than respectfull towards me. A friend belongs to a puffer forum and she has assured me someone's the same over there. :mrgreen: Now everyone, back to that horse! :razz:


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

rba said:


> A friend belongs to a puffer forum and she has assured me someone's the same over there.


What, all of a sudden you can't use my name or nick? Think you're being sly or clever? 

You make it sound like either its a bad thing that I act the same on other forums as I do here, or that people should be surprised that I act the same on other forums as I do here. Why on earth would you think it would be otherwise? I am who I am and don't change my personality for different forums. Why would I?


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> Still beating that dead horse I see. *yawn*


Yes... that person being you. Everyone can be right and wrong. It's a matter of experience as Dr House already eloquently stated. That's what makes a forum good, people post their different experiences. Tina isn't saying that those particular heaters just suck, she's explaining why she does not use them. And you're explaining why they worked for you. So the person who comes along and reads this forum can come to their own conclusion.

You musn't get upset whenever someone doesn't share your opinion or your experience.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Gosh, I LOVE YOU GUYS! *hugs for all*


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Dude chillax! I have to agree that starting a small tank can be tough if you don't get the right information... but thats all tanks. Heck my first tank was a 10 gallon... big by no means... and I had plenty of bumps in the road... that doesn't mean that I don't have bumps now though either! To answer her question though... bowls can ONLY house a betta with frequent water changes. Encourage bigger bowls... if you can... stop ordering the small bowls. Small tanks are pretty much the same. Bettas, maybe killifish, a dwarf gouramis (5g min), the point is, none of these can be housed with more than one in the tank.


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## Dr_House (Aug 15, 2006)

You see, rba? Everyone has an opinion and we share it; nobody has to agree. I suggested that you cast aside your infantile behavior and contribute to the discussion. You chose to contribute to the discussion and continue with your sophomoric jabs at people. I could get upset and call you names, but it is simply my opinion, and you have chosen to ignore it so the discussion continues. 

Furthermore, I do not find the sharing of ideas and experiences to be beating a dead horse, but you do. It doesn't mean we can't get along or that we need to exchange sarcastic remarks; it simply means that we disagree.



rba said:


> The big breeder tanks always had at least 2 heaters, always undersized. He explained that if one had the contacts stick ON the undersized heater could not overheat the tank and the other heater(s) would stay off.


This is very sound advice. I have heard a large number of people advocating for this type of setup. Another option to accomplish this (perhaps someone can assist me with the specifics of this, as I've only heard of it) is a device which acts as a regulator for an aquarium heater. The heater is plugged into the main power source through this device, which has a probe that is inserted into the aquarium. If the probe reads higher than a predesignated temperature, it assumes the heater has "stuck" and cuts the power.

Heating issues aside, a bowl and even most small aquariums, will typically leave a fish-keeper dissatisfied. Encouraging a person toward a larger setup is typically a more prudent course of action. Not to mention, the fish stand a much better chance of weathering any "beginner" mistakes. In my opinion, any aquarium of fewer than 20 gallons is more frustrating than fulfilling.



Boxermom said:


> You make it sound like either its a bad thing that I act the same on other forums as I do here, or that people should be surprised that I act the same on other forums as I do here. Why on earth would you think it would be otherwise? I am who I am and don't change my personality for different forums. Why would I?


I am glad to hear that. We wouldn't have it any other way.




Fishfirst said:


> excellent point Dr. House


Thank you. Can you pass on to my wife that I had a good point? She has never witnessed this first-hand. :lol:


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

You'll never hear me suggest that very small tanks are great for beginners or recommend one to a beginner. However, the question was what can be kept in one because people ask (and buy) about the small bowls/tanks. Yes, they should be encouraged to get a larger tank if possible, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of beginners see the big tanks as too big of an investment and see it as requiring too much work (remember, they don't have experience so they don't know any better). They don't want to invest in a lot of fish to fill a bigger tank, they just want to try their hand at one or two cheap fish, because, as we all know, fish don't live long so why waste the money? Hopefully they can be taught but first, they're going to get the small one no matter what anyone tells them so the best thing we can do is try to help them be successful at it. It was my impression that's what this thread was originally supposed to be about and, therefore, that is what my contributions to the thread were geared towards. 

I happen to feel the opposite about using heaters lower than recommended. I believe in using them higher than recommended, and using a couple for larger tanks. The lower the wattage, IMO, the more it will kick on and off trying to keep the temp stable, the faster it will burn out and the greater risk of failure. I have seen no studies that indicate one way or the other is better, but that's my gut feeling and its what I go with until I see evidence to the contrary (and something more than one or two people's anecdotal experiences). As with everything, you run your tank your way and I run mine my way. In a situation like this, there's really no one that can definitively say one way is right and the other is wrong, at least as far as I've been able to find. YMMV.


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## rcomeau (Apr 23, 2006)

What_kind_of_fish_can_you_keep_in_a_fish_bowl


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

speaking of heater... i don't really suggest anyone use the non-submerable heater. i remember i drop one in the tank and i got shock. shouldn't be this way but it just happen.

rba actually have a good point but just that he doesn't like another opinion on other's opinion on something that doesn't even have a right or wrong answer.


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## Dr_House (Aug 15, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> You'll never hear me suggest that very small tanks are great for beginners or recommend one to a beginner. However, the question was what can be kept in one because people ask (and buy) about the small bowls/tanks. Yes, they should be encouraged to get a larger tank if possible, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of beginners see the big tanks as too big of an investment and see it as requiring too much work (remember, they don't have experience so they don't know any better). They don't want to invest in a lot of fish to fill a bigger tank, they just want to try their hand at one or two cheap fish, because, as we all know, fish don't live long so why waste the money? Hopefully they can be taught but first, they're going to get the small one no matter what anyone tells them so the best thing we can do is try to help them be successful at it. It was my impression that's what this thread was originally supposed to be about and, therefore, that is what my contributions to the thread were geared towards.


Very well said, Boxermom! I couldn't agree more! "Tina is always right...Tina is always right..." :lol: I'm glad that you keep in recent memory how most people get in to this hobby. It's so easy to forget that for most of us, a 10 gallon tank was huge and we wouldn't be talked into anything bigger.



Boxermom said:


> I happen to feel the opposite about using heaters lower than recommended. I believe in using them higher than recommended,


I'm with you here, too. Having a heater "stick" on may change my practices, but for now, I do the same. My reasons do not have the strong base in science; I simply prefer to have as little in my aquarium as possible and one heater is fewer than two. :lol: With spraybars, intakes, a pH monitors and the heater, my tank is ugly enough. The last thing I want to do is add more to it.


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