# Malachite green



## Discordia

I am concerned with using the chemical Malachite green which is found in many ich treatments. Although it's highly effective in treating fungus there are a lot of negative side effects. It's a known carcinogen for humans and can be leathal to fish. Two of my cat glasses died as a result. There were a few things I didn't know about this chemical until I further investigated it:

1, It's toxicity increases with lower Ph levels. 
2. Even at half strength, it can kill sensitve fish.
3. Turning aquarium lights off during the entire treatment proccess is important because the chemical is photo-senstive. 
4. It lowers oxygen levels in the aquarium.
5. Tetras are sensitive to this chemical as well.
6. It can damage the biological filter.

I used API Super Ick Cure. It contains Malachite green and pvp. I do not know what pvp is. The bottle did caution that scaleless fish can be sensitive to the product along with catfish, but it did not say anything about tetras. It did not explain that its more toxic if using in an aquarium with a PH on the low side, nor did it say anything about turning the aquarium lights off. I continued aeration in my tank, but didn't increase it. Some of my fish were air-gulping at the surface and they all showed signs of stress. I halted the treatment a day early due to this.

The ich isn't completely gone yet, but I fear using chemicals. A lot of the chemicals used to treat ich are quite ominous. One of my biggest fears is damaging the biological filter as a result. This would create absolute chaos. I considered the high-temp salt route, but don't feel comfortable with my experience. Scaleless fish are sensitive to salt as well. Has anyone else had problems with ich treatments?


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## phlyergirl

In the disease forum there is a sticky about treating with salt and heat that gives a schedule. I did that schedule in a tank with corys and loaches and had complete success. None of the scaleless fish experienced any change in behavior, appetite, and most importantly, no one died and all the ich-infested fish were cured. I've had success with salt and lower temps (about 77) as well, you just need to leave the salt in longer. 

Personally I wouldn't even consider using chemicals unless the salt method failed.


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## Obsidian

Aquarisol would help and I have used it in the past for Ich. I have used salt at almost full strength with cories and pleco's. My loach was already gone then so I can't say how it would affect that. Aquarisol does not have malachite green and is not copper based. 

I think you would be fine with increased temp and half salt. It will kill your fish if it gets too strong of a hold. I lost about 80-90% of a tank to ich when it broke out and I was out of town. It had too good of a hold then, and I lost everyone as a result. Don't let it get that bad!


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## emc7

Malachite green is the 'safer' alternative to methylene blue. Both are regularly blended with formalin, aka formaldehyde in water. Both are dyes and will stain sealant, decor, hands. All meds should be used after research and with care. That you for posting the info. It is always good to know the risks of any product. Both are in danger of becoming unavailable do to restrictive regulation. Both are good for fungus and ich.


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## Fishpunk

I had heard just the opposite, that meth blue is supplanting mal green for the carcinogen reason.


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## grogan

phlyergirl said:


> In the disease forum there is a sticky about treating with salt and heat that gives a schedule. I did that schedule in a tank with corys and loaches and had complete success. None of the scaleless fish experienced any change in behavior, appetite, and most importantly, no one died and all the ich-infested fish were cured. I've had success with salt and lower temps (about 77) as well, you just need to leave the salt in longer.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't even consider using chemicals unless the salt method failed.


I had a fish death in my 14 gallon that went unnoticed and caused an ich outbreak. I was irritated at first because I thought I was out of this phase but had to treat regardless. I tried the heat and salt method as referenced above verses chemicals due to my stocking. I have shrimp so most ich chemicals were out of the question. I followed the instructions and did water changes every day for about a week. The ich cleared up with no lost fish..I was amazed. After that this will be the only method of treatment I will use.


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## phlyergirl

There's also the school of thought that you can treat with high temps (above 86) only, but I've never tried that.


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## Discordia

I made the mistake of not researching the product before using it. I just followed the directions on the back because API products are highly recommended. I did not realize the potency of the chemical until I lost two glass cats that appeared to be in excellent shape before using the treatment. I found quite a few resources on the internet that strongly recommends against using malachite green and formalin on scaleless fish. 

The ich isn't severe yet, but I have noticed it has spread since I discontinued treatment to two other fish. Before, it had only afflicted one fish (visibily), which cleared when using Quick Cure but the spots are back. I now realize that ich could have been the cause of two other fish deaths prior to it being visible. Ironically enough, the community tank that I buy my fish from is infected with ich. She's been treating her tank via high temp and salt for the last week. She thinks the ich is gone. I think she hasn't done her research. I think she will continue to have outbreaks in the tank because she's not vaccuming the gravel and treating the tank long enough. 

At the moment, the fish don't seem extremely stressed. I am going to try Kordon's Ich attack. It has a mixed review. Some people highly recommend it, while others say don't waste your money. If it doesn't work I will try Aquarisol or high temps with salt. I have a quarantine tank up and running now. However, it's not cycled yet. IMO, prevention is the best solution. I didn't realize how serious ich could be. I will definitely use a quarantine tank from here on out.

Thanks for all the advice.


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## Discordia

phlyergirl said:


> There's also the school of thought that you can treat with high temps (above 86) only, but I've never tried that.


I read that treating the tank with high temps alone is not very effective. High temps speed up the life cycle of ich but won't kill it unless it's around 90 degrees f. That high of a temperature can be fatal to some fish. Probably as fatal as using malachite green... However, I haven't tried that yet so I don't know what the results would be. I am trying to find the most safe and effective way. After it's cleared up, prevention is my main goal.


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## Obsidian

A q u a r - i s o l


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## emc7

There are med-resistant strains of ich and even salt-resistant strains. Pick one treatment use as directed, but if you don't see progress in 3 day, try another. But once you see improvement keep treating. It can take 2 weeks or more to get rid of all the ich and keep it from coming back later stronger.


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## mousey

there are different strains of ick. what works for one may not work for another. There are some new medicines that are herbal that are supposed to work. unfortunately my memory is not working today!
Aquarisol is chelated copper as far as i know and is a mild treatment.


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## Discordia

So, I spoke with the rep of Kordon about Ich attack. He was a total tool. I asked if it was safe to add salt with the treatment. He told me not to add salt because of the scaleless fish and that salt would not kill ich. I know that a lot of people use this method with success. However, that isn't why I found him to be 'enter explicit here'.

The product recommends against water changes during treatment. However, the length of the treatment is unclear. It could take more than two weeks before the whitespots dissapear. Until I pointed out this fact, he told me not to do weekly water changes. However, nitrates will build up if the treatment takes a long time, which will further stress the fish. He agreed that it could be a problem. He then told me that I could do weekly water changes during treatment IF I used their water conditioners. The ones I have now are perfectly fine. Instead of wanting to help me, he was pushing an agenda. He definitely rubbed me the wrong way.


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## phlyergirl

Salt doesn't kill ich my patootie. :lol:


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## Fishpunk

@Discordia This is one of the rare cases where ammo-chips have a legitimate use.


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## Discordia

Fishpunk said:


> @Discordia This is one of the rare cases where ammo-chips have a legitimate use.


I am using ammo-chips currently. I have a low level of ammonia in my tank (.25). The source of it is something I haven't been able to figure out. I feed them once a day, only as much as they can consume in a few minutes. I haven't had any nitrite spikes and my nitrates are 20 ppm. The nitrates will always be at that level because it's in my tap. I did pull some live plants as they weren't doing too well. I think that they may have been slowly decaying, which might be the source. Other than that, I can't think of anything.

Re: salt
Salt doesn't necessarily kill ich directly. It makes ich harder to attach to a host and survive from my understanding. I have done so much research and there are a lot of different opinions. It makes it somewhat harder to find the best solution when treating sensitive fish.


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## emc7

The only thing wrong with ammo-chips is that a tank can become dependent on them. You'll goal is a tank with stable ammonia levels (hopefully 0) and nitrate levels that are controlled by periodic water changes. If the chips are taking up ammonia, then the filter bacteria isn't. When the chips are used up, you can get a sudden ammonia spike and need to "recycle". It you change out the chips periodically to prevent this, costs will add up over time. That being said, they are good to have on hand for emergencies, QT and shipping.


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## Fishpunk

The ammo chips should be used like activated carbon: to treat an issue then remove when done.


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## Discordia

I absolutely agree with both of you when it comes to using the ammo-chips. They are just a band-aid. I don't want to mess with anything in my tank until the ich is gone, however.

The only theories that I have on the slightly elevated ammonia levels are:
1. The live plants are slowly dying in the tank. I removed two of them that were turning brown. I have two other live plants that don't seem like they are doing as good as they should. I am considering removing those as well.
2. Snails. Although my tank isn't poluted with them, they do add to the bio-load. I will be trapping and removing a majority of them. Their numbers have been kept in check because I closely monitor the feeding of my fish to prevent excess food from reaching the bottom.

What confuses me is why I haven't had any nitrite spikes because of the low level of ammonia. Nitrites always test zero when I check my water parameters.

I have not seen any improvement with the ich, but it has not gotten any worse. I increased the dosage of ich attack to 100% the normal dosage, which is safe according to the bottle. However, I shouldn't have to do that because the infection isn't severe. I will continue using the product for a few more days, but I am questioning whether it works or not. The prior treatment I used showed improvement within the matter of a day. 

The smell of the product is puke worthy. I can smell it whenever I am close to the tank. I can't even compare the smell to anything... it's just bad. I just hope it doesn't reek up my whole living room.


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## Fishpunk

It could be that something killed off part of your ammonia-consuming bacteria but did not impact the nitrite-consuming bacteria, or so little ammonia is converted that the remaining bacterial can covert it almost instantly to nitrate.


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## Discordia

@ Fishpunk

What could kill off the nitrosomonas bacteria that breaks down NO3 and how would you go about re-establishing it? My water parameters have been stable. So, it's probably not a ph fluctuation. 

From my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), The nitrobacter bacteria breaks down nitrites that the nitrosomonas bacteria produce via the consumption ammonia. If the nitrosomonas bacteria isn't consuming enough ammonia to support the bio-load, then the nitrobacter would start to starve and die off, thus producing nitrite spikes. How can 'left-over' ammonia be instantly converted to nitrates? It skips a step of the nitrogen cycle altogther. The nitrobacter bacteria does not consume ammonia, therefore it couldn't convert ammonia straight to nitrate.


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## Fishpunk

You said you have an ammonia spike and nitrates. If you have no nitrites then either your cycle is killed and you are starting over, or the nitrobacter is consuming all the nitrites that the weakened colony of nitrosomonas produces. Because you have nitrates, I suspect the latter may be true unless it's left over from before the crash.


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## Discordia

The nitrates are coming from my tap water. It tested 20 ppm. My tank tests at 20 ppm. I will never have a reading of zero unless I buy a filter to remove the nitrate from my water source.


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## Fishpunk

Okay, never mind then. Probably the cycle crashed. That always sucks.


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## Discordia

I don't think my cycle has crashed because I am not having nitrite or nitrate problems, but it's undisputable that something is wrong. I will figure it out as I can be quite obsessive. I am not getting enough days at work to occupy myself and it's too cold to be outside. I really have nothing better to do today considering I was scheduled to work until my boss called me off. Focusing on my aquarium keeps me from going stir-crazy. I hate having too much time on my hands.


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## Fishpunk

When you start a cycle you never have nitrites or nitrates (other than what's in the tap water) so I don't understand the logic.


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## Discordia

Fishpunk said:


> When you start a cycle you never have nitrites or nitrates (other than what's in the tap water) so I don't understand the logic.


Theoretically, my nitrates are zero... or would be if it wasn't in the tap. I don't think my bio-filter has crashed as it keeps the nitrites and nitrates at zero. The nitrosomonas bacteria is breaking down most of the ammonia and the nitrobacter bacteria is consuming all of the by-product. If it wasn't, my nitrites would spike. 


So the problem is with the nitrosomonas bacteria, but that doesn't make sense either... If some of it died off it would create a chain reaction, afflicting the whole system. The nitrobacters would die and create a nitrite spike, followed by high nitrate levels. This hasn't happened, which makes it hard to figure out what is causing the slight ammonia elevation. 

If my tank tested for nitrites and nitrates, I think it would probably be easier to get to the root of the problem. Maybe I should use a different ammonia testing kit. That would be one more thing I could rule out if the tests yeild the same results... I use the API master kit, so I doubt it's wrong, but ya never know.

I can't do daily water changes because of the ich meds. So, Ammo-chips are currently my bestfriend.


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## Fishpunk

Some test kits do expire. I had a nitrite test that went bad, and also a GH test that would never change color even if you titrated the whole bottle.


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## Guest

Discordia: I have three clown loaches and they are considered scaleless fish. Malachite green will burn them if fully dosed. But when it is half dosed it doesn't burn them. Malachite green is safe at half dose for scaleless fish.

I hope that you get your ich outbreak all better.


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## Discordia

Thanks Angel. If the Kordon Ich Attack doesn't work, I will have to resort to doing that again. I just didn't have luck with it the first time around. My scaleless cats died.

The API master test kit doesn't have an expiration date on it. I looked all over for one. This bothers me as the chemicals cannot last forever... I did once purchase a test kit and realized that it was expired by a year. The color reaction didn't match any colors on the chart.


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## phlyergirl

Look on the lot number, the last four digits are the month and year it was manufactured. I think the amm. and nitrite are good for two years and the pH and nitrate for like three. Don't quote me on that, though. :lol:


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## Discordia

Thanks Phlyergirl. I will have to look into that so I have an idea of how old my kit is. Unfortunately, an independant test yeilded the same results for ammonia at .25 ppm. I have a couple of ideas of what is going on and will look into it. If nothing else, I will start feeding them every other day and do pwc's twice weekly.

The Kordon Ich Attack does not work. I have dosed the tank at 100% for the last four days without improvement and have enough left in the bottle for maybe one more treatment. The crap cost $16 for a 16 oz bottle. The water smelled acrid, which permeated the room. The treatment turned my water a nasty brown and saturated my filter pads with it. I did not do my water change because the product recommends against it, and that resulted in a dangerous nitrate spike, 80 ppm.

I did a pwc last night. I conditioned my water with Stress Coat, Prime, and added salt. I replaced the carbon and left it in for about 12 hours to clean out the Kordon Ich Attack before resulting back to malachite green. This time however, I accounted for water displacement. I added the treatment slightly below half strength to a cup of aquarium water before introducing it to my tank. Hopefully they will be fine. I won't be able to watch them today because I have to work.

Hippy remedies = failure.


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## Guest

I think that I know your problem. You have said that you added salt. Well with most fish, especially scaleless fish, you shouldn't add salt because it actually harms them instead of heals them. I never added salt with any of my fish, especially when they are sick, and they do just fine.

I would not add anymore salt, especially when you do your water changes. I bet if you don't add salt to your tank, your fish will start to improve.

Stress coat and Prime, I believe are the same thing and do the same thing to the water, so adding them both isn't necessary, but I could be wrong about that.

I hope that this helps.


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## Discordia

I have always used small amounts of salt in the tank. Prior to the ich treatment the scaleless fish seemed to do fine. I assumed that a small amount wouldn't really hurt them. There is a mixed opinion on whether to use salt at all with scaleless fish. However, you are probably right. It's better to be safe than sorry. 

Stress coat and Prime both remove chlorine, so they are the same in that effect. Stress coat is supposed to help with the slime coat. Prime is supposed to help with ammonia and nitrites. Generally, I just use one but decided to use both because my ammonia is slightly elevated.


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## Guest

I see. Yes it is better to be safe than sorry. I am glad that I was able to help in some way.


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## Discordia

Yes, Thanks Angel. Even if adding small amounts of salt seem not to hurt them now, it probably could or will long-term. 

I am almost certain I figured out my ammonia problem: cleaning my filter pads too often. I would clean them weekly with my water change. It's something so obvious, yet I missed it entirely. I am going to clean them once a month and see if that resolves the problem. If not, it's something else I can rule out. I was trying to be meticulous in caring for the tank, but it's counter productive. Ironically enough, I know not to vaccum the gravel constantly because of the bacterial bed, but I never thought about over cleaning the filter pads. It should have been so obvious considering that most of the good bacteria is housed there.


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## Guest

You're welcome.

Yeah cleaning the filter pads too much might be the problem with your ammonia. Once a month would be a good thing to clean the filter pads.

I would vacuum the gravel twice a month, since the good bacteria are on the filter pads then you wouldn't be killing all the good bacteria when you do water changes.

Glad I can be of some help to you.


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