# Setup - First SW tank



## cheseboy

I am setting up a SW tank. This will be my first SW tank. 


20 Gallon
Wet/Dry Filter
Quality Protien Skimmer
All the SW Majors are thoes

The only thing I am not sure about is weather to keep "Fish only" or corals and anenomies also. I would need to buy a new light for corals and such. I would need to monitor the calcium levels. What would you guys reccomend for a beginning SW aquaist.


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## AshleytheGreat

If you really want corals you can do soft corals which dont require as much lighting. I wouldnt try the anemones b/c they require intense expensive lighting and are hard to keep going. EEK! But if you really just want fish go with just fish.

If you have a FOWLR tank your going to need some good lighting to keep the live rock alive.


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## TheOldSalt

I can't recommend any corals to a beginner in good conscience. Newbies can and often do keep them just fine, but it's just not such a great idea. 
Anemones are right out! No way. It's not just you, it's the tank.

Fish-only is what I recommend, and recommend very strongly. You've not yet had to contend with saltwater fish diseases, and having inverts in your tank will make it impossible for you to do anything about them. You'll also find that keeping things the way they should be is tricky enough to learn how to do without the added pressure of wiping out your whole tank if you make a mistake, and fish are a lot more forgiving than the other crittes.


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## cheseboy

AshleytheGreat said:


> If you have a FOWLR tank your going to need some good lighting to keep the live rock alive.


What do you mean by that. The rock it self isen't actually alive. The little critters need light? What about if the rock has been cured?

Ok then I will have a Fish Only tank. Mabey after it's been running for a while I will put in a shrimp, or mabey even a seahorse (if I can feed it). Plus I don't really have that much money for a fancy lighting system to suport corals.


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## Electric Monk

cheseboy said:


> What do you mean by that. The rock it self isen't actually alive. The little critters need light? What about if the rock has been cured?
> 
> Ok then I will have a Fish Only tank. Mabey after it's been running for a while I will put in a shrimp, or mabey even a seahorse (if I can feed it). Plus I don't really have that much money for a fancy lighting system to suport corals.


If live rock has poor light it just becomes well.....unwell rock. The Corraline algae need it to do well (as well as everything else on/in the rock).

Once your water levels are correct a Shrimp (cleaner) is one of the FIRST things you want in your tank, along with Turbo snails and Hermit crabs.

These keep the tank Clean ready for the fish.

As for the Seahorse, trust me, leave well alone for a while. They need the lighting and corals and water quality that is best left to the sea


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## flamingo

What do you mean seahorses need the lighting and corals?
Seahorses can be kept just fine in a tank with regular flourescent lighting and it's not totally advised to keep them with most corals do to sweeper tentacles and all that stuff.
Sorry if I read that wrong..
Seahorses though..well of course...are not for the beginner.

Most live rock can do just fine under normal lighting but sometimes critters come along on them and need the lighting. I would really suggest to start out with power compact lighting, regular flourescent gets annoying after a while and if you want to get into the whole reef scene than you can at least start stocking with shrooms and macroalgae or anything like that.

i would highly recommend starting with a fowlr tank. The addition of live rock will add a great deal of biological filtration and will overall stabilize your tank. 

Of course though the most important thing would to research sw tanks before starting. Saltwater isn't really impossible or very hard as you will usually hear. Really overall it's just the fish are more demanding and less forgiving when it comes to water quality. Every little addition in most cases can effect every other living thing in your tank. Overall you just need to plan carefully and it costs a heck of a lot more than freshwater tanks.

Oh yeah..like said above adding a few snails and a a bunch of hermit crabs will help out a lot.


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## AshleytheGreat

Well if your going to spend that 8 dollars a pound for some live rock I woudl try my best to keep it alive!


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## cheseboy

Do you guys use R/O or De-ionization filtration systems for tap water? Since I probably won't have enugph money to get one. Will a conditioner that "neutralizes" all the bad stuff work for a "Fish only" tank.

I have a 15W light to a 20 gallon. I have not seen any power compact light fixtures in petsmart or petco. I will be going to basically a only fish warehouse\Store tommorow so they will probably have it there. I don't just want a PC for things to survive, I also want it to see the critters better because the light dosen't light up the whole tank the best I would like it too.

Also, why would the critters need light? What about if it's cured? There is an aquarium store that sells live rock not far from here. It's basically a huge pool of live rock. I think it cost $7.00 or mabey $7.99 per pound. They had no special light on the rock. All they had was the nomral flouresiant lighting from the store's lights shining on the live rock for costumer viewing, it looked cool.


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## leveldrummer

from what ive read, "cured" live rock means its not sick, it means its in a cycled tank, and isnt having "stuff" die off of it anymore, most people use distilled water, you can buy it at any major store (kroger, walmart etc.) im not sure about using a water conditioner on tap water, but i think its a no-no. it doesnt seem right for the store not to have special lighting on the live rock pool, if they dont have high output lights on it, then the critters on the rock will die, i dont know if the lights in the ceiling would be good enough, ask them, they might have an explanation.


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## TheOldSalt

Cured rock is crappy rock that has been allowed to experince massive die-off of it's encrusting organisms. The idea is that if the stuff is already dead, then it can't die & rot in your tank.
This of course is just plain stupid.
Go to any of the good online rockselling places online and take a look at the pics of how liverock is _supposed_ to look. Then compare it to that crap in your local shop.
Sad, isn't it?
Once upon a time, about 20 years ago when reef tanks were still in their infancy, curing was the only thing people could do. Nowadays it's simply inexcusable. There is no reason today why all the liverock organisms cannot be kept perfectly alive from ocean to your living room. Any shop selling cured rock is simply doing so because it's buying cheap pacific rock which is collected, stored, and shipped under horrible conditions which are quite simply a disgrace. by the time it gets to the shop it's already half-dead, so they go ahead and finish it off and call it cured like in the old days.
So, yes, if you buy cured rock, then you don't really need really good lights. Your rock is dead already, so why bother? Of course, you'll have plenty of problems with algae & red slime as a result, but hey, if you wanna do things the 20 year old way, then you should expect the 20 year old problems.
Of course, if you go that route, then why bother with live rock at all? Just get some Cera-pore blocks and carve them into nifty-looking shapes.

I do not recommend FOWLR tanks. They shouldn't even be considered an option; it's either a reef, or it isn't. Again, you can't treat for diseases in a tank with live rock.


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## Electric Monk

flamingonhot said:


> What do you mean seahorses need the lighting and corals?
> 
> Seahorses though..well of course...are not for the beginner.


Well, the team effort at hinting to the guy that keeping seahorses without looking into it a lot more is tough, ermmm, went pretty well. :?


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## flamingo

Obviously if your lfs has live rock in a giant pool with barely any light they are curing it or it's just junk like the lfs by me. He has it in a giant 200 gallon tank with just a simple hob filter and no lighting, the lr is worthless and comes with 50 million bristleworms on each rock.


And i was just wondering what you meant by the whole seahorses need coral thing...maybe i just read it wrong...


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## cheseboy

This pool is way bigger than a 200 gallon. I went again today and it infact did have light. The rock looked much alive. So can I suport live rock with a 15W light in a 20 gallon because while I was there I saw a PC light fixture that would fit my tank and it was $200. Home deopt has metal halide lights at about $100 a piece. Still a bit too expensive for me. So I have decided I will just need to work with the light I have. Since I want more money to buy the most important thing, the fish!

Also will a power filter work in my tank if I can not acquire a wet\dry filter?


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## Electric Monk

flamingonhot said:


> And i was just wondering what you meant by the whole seahorses need coral thing...maybe i just read it wrong...


I'm not sure if you are joking anymore............. 


Ok, what part did you think you read wrong?

The part where i tried to hint to the guy that keeping a seahorse is not a good idea at the moment, in a new tank etc etc, without calling him an idiot for thinking about it.

or

The part where i tried to hint to the guy that keeping a seahorse is not a good idea at the moment, in a new tank etc etc, without calling him an idiot for thinking about it.


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## flamingo

Sorry,

I knew you were telling him not to get them but I was just wondering about the the they need coral part.

Im just going to drop out here. Im very confused at the moment and I feel very stupid....


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## Electric Monk

No, don't you go anywhere mate!!

My fault, work got my back up and I took it out here.

Sorry.

p.s. Would that be There's No Penguins In Alaska lyrics I spy in your sig?


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## cheseboy

Ok, ok lol. This is not a seahorse discussion form ,lol. So please I want help!

My questions:

1.Can I use a power filter in a 20 gallon if I can not aquire a wet/dry filter?

2.Can a 15W Non PC fluorescent light suport live rock?

I don't think it's that hard to answer :twisted: .


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## Reefneck

cheseboy said:


> Ok, ok lol. This is not a seahorse discussion form ,lol. So please I want help!
> 
> My questions:
> 
> 1.Can I use a power filter in a 20 gallon if I can not aquire a wet/dry filter?
> 
> 2.Can a 15W Non PC fluorescent light suport live rock?
> 
> I don't think it's that hard to answer :twisted: .


Answers

#1 Sure but it won't be as good.

#2 No way! It will be dead rock in no time and wasted money!

#3 Saltwater aquariums are costly. If you can't afford the equipment you should stick to freshwater. (Not trying to be mean, Just honest).

You can have nothing but Fish ONLY in a tank like that and very few of them without excellent filtration and you are still limited in the types of fish because of the small size of the tank. No Tangs, Eels, Groupers, Angels etc in a tank that small.

Without proper lights & filtration (IMO) it is not worth doing a SW tank.


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## flamingo

You can totally have a HOB power filter.
Mine is running perfectly on one. Plus I don't think it's worth getting into wet/dry with a tank that small.

And yes Em that's the lyrics to the penguin thing lol. At least I think it is..I don't know I always forget the titles to they're songs lol.

And sorry for kind of derailing this thread lol.


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## AshleytheGreat

What about buying a canister filter?


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## leveldrummer

some one gonna tell him about a protein skimmer? or should i? ok i will, you should look into getting a protein skimmer!! it will help immensly


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## cheseboy

leveldrummer said:


> some one gonna tell him about a protein skimmer? or should i? ok i will, you should look into getting a protein skimmer!! it will help immensly


I already have one.


I have found out on ebay there are alot of good deals on power compacts, I probably will be able to get one.

WOuld a 65W PC on a 20 gallon work?

I can go higher if needed.


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## cheseboy

I also have a few more questions. Ok here are my questions:

1. Can a 65W PC on a 20 gallon light suport live rock, can it suport soft coral?

2.Would a tap water conditioner be good enugph for soft corals?


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## TheOldSalt

Here's the thing: a 20 gallon tank is no place for soft corals. Soft corals are a royal pain due to their odd habits of shedding/waxing & exuding noxious turpenes. If you tried to keep soft corals in a 20 gallon tank, you'd be spending a LOT of time & money trying to keep the tank in good condition.

As for your question, you'd have 3 watts per gallon. That's just barely enough to keep some simpler, less demanding things, but not very well, but not enough to keep the trickier stuff. If you can find a 2X65 setup you'd be in business, and could keep a much wider array of crittters alive with less hassle. ( watch the temperature )

Tap Water Conditioner? I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but the answer is probably no.


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## cheseboy

1. Ok, then what type of fixed invert would you reccemend for the starting Reef Keeper with the correct equipment?

2. For some reason 2x55 is much cheaper than 2x65, with a 110W (2x55) would I "be in business"?

3. What are all the terms you guys are using, FOWLR (Fish only with live 
rock???)?

I have already done alot of reading on the diffrent elements corals need to survive and believe I can meet them, with some help


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## Electric Monk

AshleytheGreat said:


> What about buying a canister filter?


Tell you what, more use than they are given credit for!!!. I've got one to run my Sulpher DN unit and UV unit. 

Pretty much useless for filtering anything in a marine tank, but, you can amaze people with the amount of plumbing under your tank 


(Flaminonhot........Choidos, All's well that ends well, Track 8) Good taste my good man.


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## cheseboy

1. Ok, then what type of fixed invert would you reccemend for the starting Reef Keeper with the correct equipment?

2. For some reason 2x55 is much cheaper than 2x65, with a 110W (2x55) would I "be in business"?

3. What are all the terms you guys are using, FOWLR (Fish only with live 
rock???)?

4.Will using a deionizing tap water filter vs. a conditioner improve the welfare of my fish\inverts.

5.How much flow will I need in my tank for soft corals?

6.Should I worry about the disloved oxygen in the water for soft corals, how do I control it if the only oxygen coming into my tank is from the protien skimmer?

Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Purifier (deionizer) 

I have already done alot of reading on the diffrent elements corals need to survive and believe I can meet them, with some help 

Everyone Have A Happy New Year :fun: :fun: :fun:


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## TheOldSalt

1-- with correct equipment in a 20gal = anything BUT soft corals. Why are you hung up on soft corals?

2-- Yes

3-- FOWLR does indeed mean fish-only with live rock. This is a popular but grossly improper term, as there is no such thing. It's either a reef or it isn't. The FOWLR tank is a reef which has everything but corals.
FO = fish-only; no live rock

4-- An AQPharm Tap Water Purifier will produce highly suitable water without waste. However, the cartridges don't last very long at all and they're expensive. You're better off buying purple-capped distilled water from WalMart.

5-- tricky question. too many variables. Enough to wash them clean but not too much more.

6-- use an ozonizer and a redox controller with the skimmer to set the redox level at 425


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## cheseboy

Ok, I'm not really hung up on soft corals, I just thought they were the best begenner kind. Since Anemones are not for the begenner and I have heard that hard corals are very pertictular about what they need, that leaves the soft corals. I have heads that the soft corals are more of a begenner's coral than hard or Anemones are.

1.Ok, number 6 made absolutly no sense to me, what is a ozonier and a redox controller?

2. So then what stationary invert group would you recemend? ( besides tube worms)

4.The thing is my parents don't want to drive me to the grocery store everytime I need to do a water change, I can't store water anywhere either. If you look at the review it seams like someone had hard tap water and their filter was used up quickly, I have VERY soft tap water, I think the purifier might be better in the long run. Plus doesn't distilled water still contain nasties witch inhibit the groth of corals,anemones.


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## AshleytheGreat

Why dont you buy a RO unit.


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## cheseboy

AshleytheGreat said:


> Why dont you buy a RO unit.


Deionizing filters are about $40. I looked at ones on ebay and they started around $100 with shipping.


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## leveldrummer

cheseboy said:


> Deionizing filters are about $40. I looked at ones on ebay and they started around $100 with shipping.


thats because they are far better, you get what you pay for,


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## cheseboy

leveldrummer said:


> thats because they are far better, you get what you pay for,


how many gallons can an R/O filter, filter? If it's under 200 gallons per filter change then it is ineficcient because I can buy 200 gallons of water from walmart for $100 in theroy that they would have 200 gallons in stock :-D .

If I were to spend 40 dollers on water from walmart ( the price of the deionizer) I could buy 80 gallons, the deionizer can purify 50-150 gallons of water. So if it purifys more than 80 gallons of water, the deionized would be cost efficent. I have very soft tap water so the purifier woulden't spend all of it's contents trying to get hardness out of the water. Other contaminents I'm not so sure about.


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## TheOldSalt

I guess the Tapwater Purifier would be a good way for you to go, then.

Soft corals are pretty easy to keep, BUT: you'll have a very tough time keeping anything else with them in a 20gal tank. Hmm.. actually, it's the toadstools & leathers which cause the most problems, with the others being less trouble.

Caulastrea, Cladiella, Sinularia, Xenia, Zooanthus, Palythoa*, Clavularia, and of course the mushrooms are all good beginner corals of varying types which will do fine in your tank.

*= very toxic to humans; can be fatal. Extremely easy to keep & grow, though. The mushrooms are dangerous to other corals near them.


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## TheOldSalt

Uh oh; I forgot to answer the other stuff, so here goes:

An ozonizer is a gizmo which creates ozone. This ozone is pumped or sucked into your skimmer, where it breaks apart, resulting in :
A-- instant nitrification, 
B-- disease control,
C-- oxygen boosting. Once that 3rd oxygen atom is burned off in some reaction with waste or microorganism, the remaining O2 is free to be used by your fish.

Redox is a word which is a shorthand way of saying Oxygen Reduction Potential, also known as ORP. This is a measure of the water's ability to clean itself, sort of, but in effect it means how much oxygen is in the water in relation to how dirty the water is. The higher the ORP, the more O2 saturation you have.
425 is actually pretty high; 385-400 is plenty for most applications.

A redox controller is kinda like a thermostat for your ozonizer. It measures the ORP of your water and switches on/off the ozonizer to maintain the level you set.

Yes, you can have the thing set too high.


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## cheseboy

Hmm, complicated

Do I need to inject Ozone into my tank. Or is it more of an extra that will help out your tank if you do have it? 

I ask all of these questions because I have a book about reefs and it has a section about tank specifications:

*Recommended Water Quality Values For A Reef Tank*


_temperature_-----72-78 F
_specific gravity_-----1.022-1.026
_salinity_-----32-36 o/oo
_PH_-----8.0-8.4
_alkalinity_-----6-9 KH
_carbon dioxide_-----2-5 ppm
_calcium_-----400-450 mg/L
_oxidation-reduction potential_----- +250-375 mV
_dissolved oxygen_----->5.5 ppm
_Ammonia_-----<0.25 mg/L
_Nitrite_-----<0.25 mg/L
_Nitrate_-----<30 mg/L
_phosphate_-----<0.03 mg/L
_iorn_-----0.1-0.2 mg/L
_movement_----->5x tank volume (gph)

*Symbols*

F-----degrees Fahrenheit
gph-----gallons per hour
KH-----german degrees of calcium alkalinity
>-----greater than
<-----less than
mg/L-----milligrams per liter
mV-----millivolts
ppm-----parts per million
o/oo-----parts per thousand
o/o-----percent or parts per hundred

Taken from:
*Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook*
by:_Dr.Robert J. Goldstein_


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## cheseboy

Up,Up Up is Goes :twisted:


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## TheOldSalt

Those ranges are pretty liberal, to tell the truth, but they'll work for the easy stuff.

No, you don't _need_ ozone, but it helps. If you don't want to use it, then you _are_ going to need some more aeration/circulation than just the skimmer alone will provide, but not much more since it's only 20 gallons.


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## cheseboy

Will I? Since I haven't said anything, but my protein skimmer is overpowerd for my tank. It's a protein skimmer ment for a 55 gallon tank I beleve. My uncle is giving it to me.


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## TheOldSalt

Saltwater tanks need more anyway, but I guess you can try just running the skimmer and seeing what happens, although without an ORP meter you'll have a tough time telling if it's enough, since you're new to saltwater and thusly won't be able to tell normal from abnormal by just looking.


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## cheseboy

Ok, I have just moved my FW fish from my 20 gallon to a spare tank. I will leave the 20 gallon tank up fom a bit just incase I need to move them back temperarly for some reason. I plan to completely clean out my 20 gallon on friday and go out in search for bio-spira. Then I will get it cycling. Also, I won't have acess to my protein skimmer or my wet\dry filter for a few weeks, I want to start my tank cycling soon. Will my tank be ok cycling if I don't have a filter (I could use a hang on power filter if nessasry)? The only thing I intend on running in my tank during cycling is an airpump to supply oxygen to the bacteria.

1.Also, should I use my hang-on power filter that came with my 20 gallon when my tank is saltwater, if there is room on the back, will it help?

2.I don't need a powerhead to cycle a SW tank, right?


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## TheOldSalt

Both the HOB & the powerhead will help a lot. Not crucial, but very handy.


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## cheseboy

Now, I'm researchin powerheads, I have heard that Laminar flow is bad for most coral's health. I would like to get a Turbulence pattern in my tank since I don't have money for an expensive wavemaker and I have heard it'
s a good generic pattern for reefs. Can I attach a diffuser to the end of my powerhead? Can I buy two weaker powerheads to achive a Turbulence pattern of water movement?
It's all coming together now, I have ordered sea-salt and the water de-ionizer and have bought crushed coral. Slowly but surly!​


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## TheOldSalt

Use "Powersweep" powerheads ( my invention, by the way, sort of... long story ).
They sweep back & forth already, negating the need for wavemakers.


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## leveldrummer

with a sump, if you split the return lines into 2 injectors, is there something you can buy to alternate spray from one to the other? also, can you get a check valve for the return water line, so you can set the sprayers in the water and still avoid an overflow incase of power outage, check valves stop back flow so it should stop syphoning in this case.


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## cheseboy

TheOldSalt said:


> Use "Powersweep" powerheads ( my invention, by the way, sort of... long story ).
> They sweep back & forth already, negating the need for wavemakers.


Thanks T.O.S! They have some reasonably priced "Powersweep" powerheads at petsmart.

Also, can corals grow in other places besides on live rock? Since at my LFS live rock is quite expensive and I would perfer to minimize the amount of money I spend of live rock.


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## leveldrummer

chese, im not sure, but i think you can buy a ratio of 1lb of live rock to 3 lbs of "not live" rock and it will seed it, and eventually become live rock it self. some one will chime in soon and straighten this out, but if knowing you can do this gives you hope. just do some research and find out the correct ratio and how long it will take to acheive.


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## cheseboy

I forgot all about base rock, lol. I saw some in my LFS near the Live Rock tank. I'm doing research right now. If you have any information to add please do so.


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## leveldrummer

ok, in another thread someone just recommended half live, half base, but it will take time to seed and turn it into live rock. good luck with all this, hope i was helpful.


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## TheOldSalt

Coral will grow on anything, but it will grow better on calcareous rock. If you want to avoid the use of a lot of rock, then use an ecosystem mud/macroalgae filter instead, which replaces it's functioning quite nicely. You won't have much luck without using one or the other, though. Corals are not for cheapskates. LOL!

If you can find a check valve that fits, then that's certainly an option. As for splitting the return into two alternating outputs, this is easily done by using a SCWD "squid" unit.


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## cheseboy

TheOldSalt said:


> Coral will grow on anything, but it will grow better on calcareous rock. If you want to avoid the use of a lot of rock, then use an ecosystem mud/macroalgae filter instead, which replaces it's functioning quite nicely. You won't have much luck without using one or the other, though. Corals are not for cheapskates. LOL!
> 
> If you can find a check valve that fits, then that's certainly an option. As for splitting the return into two alternating outputs, this is easily done by using a SCWD "squid" unit.


What about half base rock and half live rock?

What is a mud/macroalage fitler?

For me I mainly want to buy live rock so corals and other organisims can attach to it, the de-nitrifying bactaria that grows on it is really just an extra goodie for me.

I will probably start out my tank as a fish only with a simple clown, then as I get more money I will get live rock and upgrade my tank to a reef tank.


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## cheseboy

Faster water faster! :evil:


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