# Sticky  thoughts of mine. . . . .



## PEVINE

i have a 10 gallon tank, lookin pretty lame. thought about getting Puffers but then i saw coral and alot of cool saltwater fish. i was wndering if it would be possibal to get this tabnk saltwater or if it were to small and what I might need for a small coral tank, and if i could put a couple small good looking fish in there. thanks for your help


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## Guest

A 10 gallon is way too small for a beginners saltwater tank IMO. Especially when they are a beginner to keeping fish in general. In a tank this small, it is very easy for the water to become unstable and a tank to crash. Takes a lot of work and know-how.
If you want saltwater, I suggest a 40 gallon minimum tank to get used to caring for a marine tank.


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## Bear

i agree with Scuba Kid, I have recently started caring for a 12g and it has shown its challenges. Without a doubt, if I had not had the back of my head smacked about a million times by the great people here it would not be possible.

I would look into a FW planted tank. You can make a 10g look gorgeous with FW plants. If ur interested you should try talkin to JustOneMore20, and take a trip to plantedtank.net


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## fishfingers

I'm not gonna lie, it could be done, but most people wouldn't advise it. If you did really wanna do one then you could set up a decent softie/shroom tank pretty easily. Basically all you would need would be LR, adequate lighting and regular water changes. Would probably not put any fish in though, except maybe _Gobiodon okinawae_. 

TBH nano tanks aren't as hard as people make them out to be. I had a successful shroom/zoa tank that I started up while my main tank was cycling that was very basic. I just made sure that I knew exactly what I was doing. That was an 18G though so it was quite a bit bigger.


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## Guest

fishfingers said:


> TBH nano tanks aren't as hard as people make them out to be.


They are when people dont have the knowledge and experience of basic fish keeping.


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## PEVINE

yea i will probly just do a planted FW tank. thanks for the help tho.


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## fishfingers

Scuba Kid said:


> They are when people dont have the knowledge and experience of basic fish keeping.


IMO it's a lot easier to go from nothing to saltwater than from freshwater to saltwater. They methods used are completely different.


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## Guest

Not necessarily. Anyone with a good amount of experience in freshwater will not have much of a problem in saltwater. The basic background they have helps a lot and they will have already made the common noobish mistakes that they can avoid with the bit more delicate sw.
Sorry, I don't agree with you.


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## flamingo

Starting with freshwater gives you the experience, confidence, and knowledge to take on the extra demands of the saltwater world. Someone who's never even done a water change isn't likely _always_ to master everything a saltwater environment needs to keep stable to begin with. Reading about doing something is different than actually doing it.


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## Guest

flamingo said:


> Starting with freshwater gives you the experience, confidence, and knowledge to take on the extra demands of the saltwater world. Someone who's never even done a water change isn't likely _always_ to master everything a saltwater environment needs to keep stable to begin with. Reading about doing something is different than actually doing it.


Agreed. Well said Dylan.


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## Bear

flamingo said:


> Starting with freshwater gives you the experience, confidence, and knowledge to take on the extra demands of the saltwater world. Someone who's never even done a water change isn't likely _always_ to master everything a saltwater environment needs to keep stable to begin with. Reading about doing something is different than actually doing it.


perfect


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## CollegeReefer

fishfingers said:


> I'm not gonna lie, it could be done, but most people wouldn't advise it. If you did really wanna do one then you could set up a decent softie/shroom tank pretty easily. Basically all you would need would be LR, adequate lighting and regular water changes. Would probably not put any fish in though, except maybe _Gobiodon okinawae_.
> 
> TBH nano tanks aren't as hard as people make them out to be. I had a successful shroom/zoa tank that I started up while my main tank was cycling that was very basic. I just made sure that I knew exactly what I was doing. That was an 18G though so it was quite a bit bigger.


I am with fishfingers on this on. If you wanted you could set up your 10 gallon just as a invert and coral tank sticking too basic softies that thrive even in not the best water such as mushrooms, maybe xania, and a few others. Actually i think it would be kind of cool to have a tank with just different types of mushrooms. My 24 gallon tank sat with just coral and inverts for a long time and i must say it looked great then. I currently only have one fish in my tank and he isn't the main attraction the coral is. I say if you want to vanture into salt water a 10 gallon softie tank would be cool. And in all honesty i think you could set it up cheap. Like fishfingers said you would just need some pc's, live rock, live sand. and water movement and you would be set. Get coral frags from local hobbiest which are a fraction of the price you would spend buying from sites online. I think with weekly 20 percent water changes and makeing sure to top of with RO/DI or Distilled water, it would work out well. Let us know what you decide to do.


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## fishfingers

As I said, I didn't think most of you would agree with me. I do think your making SW out to a be a lot harder than what it is. In a system like the one I described making "newbie" mistakes would really not take that much of a toll on the health of the system. Obviously you would take the whole process slower if you were new to it as opposed to if you were experienced, but that's no different to a newbie setting up a FW tank. IMO setting up a planted tank is no easier than setting a SW tank up as I've described.

It's like learning the saxophone so that it will help you to play the trumpet. They are both instruments, but if you want to play the trumpet why bother learning the sax? But again, I really don't think its as difficult to set up a SW as its being made out to be.


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## flamingo

Well, for one, your right- I don't agree with it. But i'd also like to point out, if you come into chat, you'll see me and Scuba constantly saying saltwater isn't hard. I've also heard Katie say a few times "you make it to be more than what it really is". With saying, i'm also not saying it's the easiest thing though.

I just don't get how having absolutely no experience or time spent maintaining a simple set up beforehand is going to make things any easier. Oh well, all the further i'm going at this point .


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## harif87

Id have to disagree with the notion that its easier to go into SW without doing FW beforehand. 

Your claim is that they require 2 different methods of husbandry. That is infact very inaccurate. The methods used in FW are the basics used in SW. Yeah FW practices dont dictate one keeping an eye on one's calcium levels, but all of FW practices are found in SW husbandry. 
What your saying is the equivalent of saying that its easier to drive a truck before stepping foot in a car than it is to have experience in drivind a sedan before a truck...... How do you expect to drive a truck if you dont even know where the gas pedal is??? How do you expect to keep an 18 wheeler with a few tons behind it steady if you cant keep
a go-kart steady?


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## Damon

I'd agree Morris. Its comparing addition to calculus. They are both math but one requires much more thought and knowledge. Having a reef, planted tank, and freshwater I can say without a doubt that saltwater is more difficult. Water chemistry is a lot different, mistakes are more costly and overall its more time consuming. Ich in a fw tank is easy. Ich in a sw tank will ruin it to the point you may have to leave it fallow for months. Development of coralline algae alone takes months. Filtration is completely different. And breeding is not nearly as easy. While I'm not saying a beginner cant do saltwater, it is a much larger undertaking with a better possibility of failure without basic fishkeeping knowledge and with that still very possible.


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## fishfingers

Lol I'm not making any friends am I. Damon has said the reasons why I would do saltwater first without doing freshwater. Except for the most costly and time comsuming bit, remember we are talking about a tank with LR, sofities and light! Basically all you would need to worry about is salinity, lighting levels and iodine to some extent. I don't think freshwater is a good learning step to get when you get saltwater coz almost everything is looked upon from a different perspective. New people to the hobby start of researching FW, so why can't they just reasearch SW in the first place and start there. As I said your typical newbie mistake wouldn't be too much of a problem in the tank described so I don't see why you would need a FW tank to make all your mistakes on. It's like walking from A to B to C if you only need to go from A to C.

I would think there would be just as many parameters needed watching in a planted tank than a simple fishless softie tank anyway? From the way I've seen them I'd rather run an SPS tank anyday before going planted.


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## harif87

fishfingers said:


> Lol I'm not making any friends am I. remember we are talking about a tank with LR, sofities and light! Basically all you would need to worry about is salinity, lighting levels and iodine to some extent.


No fish? Surely begginers want to have "nemo" in their tank. 
Ammonia/nitrate levels need to be monitered along with phosphates and other nutrients to prevent algae blooms. You dont need to have fish in the tank to have high nutrient levels. All that good stuff can come straight from the tap.

Also id like to point out that you just contradicted yourself a bit by saying this. Your saying that there is nothing to keeping Sw the way you just described it. It sounds like a FW tank just with some salt in the water.... in that case why even mention the given scenario? I mean you should be all for begginers keeping hard to keep species like certain pipefish, cephlapods, butterflyfish etc....



> I don't think freshwater is a good learning step to get when you get saltwater coz almost everything is looked upon from a different perspective.


And what perspective is that? I myself dont see it in any different perspective than i do my reeftank.




Id also like to say that your theoretical thinking (which is appreciated) doesnt agree with reality. The reality is that there have been countless people who jump into SW and end up having to tear down their tanks. Go to craigslist.org.. where do you think the deals on SW equipment and livestock are comming? Not from the experienced reefer who wants to give out deals at his own expense, but by those people who have failed. Its not an easy hobby at the begginer level and im sure hundreds of people can testify.


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## Fishboy93

Seeing as though im in this exact situation, Im a little overwhelmed even though i've done most of what you can do with freshwater(Natives, Planted, Community, breeders) IME it seems like doing freshwater first has helped me gain experiance and how to react to certain situations. Just my 2 cents..


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## TheOldSalt

What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations.
Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.


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## 247Plants

> I would think there would be just as many parameters needed watching in a planted tank than a simple fishless softie tank anyway? From the way I've seen them I'd rather run an SPS tank anyday before going planted.


having 3 planted tanks and being in the freshwater end of things, all I can say here is if my plants arent happy they wont kill each other or foul the tank horribly to the point of killing the whole tank. You are right there are lots of params to watch on a high tech tank but I can let mine slip for a bit and come back and dial it in and be back 100% within a week or two with the same stock generally.



> No fish? Surely begginers want to have "nemo" in their tank.


I have yet to have a saltwater tank, but when I do I would be perfectly happy with a invert/coral tank as a beginner. Then again I wouldnt start off with a 10 gallon.


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## fishfingers

Yeah ok, this is just going around in circles. But I still stand by what I've said, and I'd tell people it again. Remember I'm only trying to give information to people based on my opinions and experiences. Its not like I lurk the forums preying on newbies with the aim of destroying their tanks in mind. I knew my opinion on this topic wouldn't be popular, but at least there are two different opinions out there now. 

Tis been a fun discussion though...


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## harif87

fishfingers said:


> Yeah ok, this is just going around in circles. But I still stand by what I've said, and I'd tell people it again. Remember I'm only trying to give information to people based on my opinions and experiences. Its not like I lurk the forums preying on newbies with the aim of destroying their tanks in mind. I knew my opinion on this topic wouldn't be popular, but at least there are two different opinions out there now.
> 
> Tis been a fun discussion though...


And of course were just voicing our experiences and opinions as well.

To each their own


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## Reefneck

TheOldSalt said:


> What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations.
> Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.


I could not agree any more with these statements!

I have kept my mouth shut in this thread so far, biting my tounge hard. Now my tounge started bleeding so I had to speak up when I saw what I feel to be "facts"! posted.

Great, Now some of you will hate me.


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## Fishboy93

Reefneck said:


> I could not agree any more with these statements!
> 
> I have kept my mouth shut in this thread so far, biting my tounge hard. Now my tounge started bleeding so I had to speak up when I saw what I feel to be "facts"! posted.
> 
> Great, Now some of you will hate me.


I think people should be respecting you for biting your tongue, seeing as though you do have a thing against nano tanks(as do most experienced reefers when refering to noobs) and your experianced so...


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## Kyoberr

Scuba Kid said:


> They are when people dont have the knowledge and experience of basic fish keeping.


How do you know that this person doesn't have basic knowledge about fish keeping?!? They probably know what they are doing, experience _is_ a good thing to have though, so if you read enough about it and took good care of it, then you could probably do it.

Nothing is impossible.


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## Guest

Kyoberr said:


> How do you know that this person doesn't have basic knowledge about fish keeping?!? They probably know what they are doing, experience _is_ a good thing to have though, so if you read enough about it and took good care of it, then you could probably do it.
> 
> Nothing is impossible.


I know he does not have much experience in fishkeeping because I know who this member is and recall their previous posts and questions from no-to-long ago. 

By the way, reading does not gain you experience.
How long have you been keeping saltwater, Kyoberr?


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## CollegeReefer

TheOldSalt said:


> What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations.
> Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.


Its not like i promote it, i just say it can be done and can be done with sucess. Makeing a 10 gallon softy tank with a CUC would be a nice nano tank with a little work and time. I being a noob when i started my nano with great sucess will give support to those who seek to start a tank smaller then 50 gallons. I will and always have told them that it is easier to start with a bigger tank, but with a little extra work and time can have sucess with a smaller tank. That is all i have to say. If the starter of this thread would like to get help i will provide it, and if he isn't comfortable posting on the thread he started, he can always pm me or email me.


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## fishfingers

harif87 said:


> And of course were just voicing our experiences and opinions as well.
> 
> To each their own


Yep I realise and respect that.

CollegeReefer you basically summed up my orginal point in your last post. I think I might of gotten a bit caught up in the swing of things trying to defend my position, but thats basically what I was trying to say.


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## Damon

fishfingers said:


> Yep I realise and respect that.
> 
> CollegeReefer you basically summed up my orginal point in your last post. I think I might of gotten a bit caught up in the swing of things trying to defend my position, but thats basically what I was trying to say.



And we do understand you point of view, but I believe you 2 are missing the bigger picture T.O.S. touched on without actually saying it.

It IS possible to do it. But the % of failure is A LOT higher. A lot of corals are still harvested which depletes the ocean. To encourage a new reefer (whether or not you believe you are) is not healthy to our environment. Our natural reefs are being depleted already let alone to risk the lives of these animals because one doesn't want to give their tank the best possible chance of success. It would be great if everyone succeeded but thats just not possible. Why increase the chances of killing the animals if you dont have to?


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## Ice

I'm going to have to agree with TOS, Reefneck & Damon on their responses. I, too was going to start a SW tank with a 36G tank but decided to start with a much larger tank after some serious advice be considered by Reefneck. Since then I have begun to to read and research more on SW keeping.

I'm also going to agree with harif with the notion one must start with FW keeping before getting into SW. I've read in amny books that people have started out in SW with great success without starting a FW tank.

Nano tanks - is it possible ? Yes.
Is it good starter for a beginner ? No. 
Is it more probable to failure for a beginner ? Yes.
Small tanks, IMO are best left alone to experienced aquarists. 
Just my 2 cents ...


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## CollegeReefer

I like most you you hate that so much is being taken from the oceans, and that is why i stated to the orginal poster that he should just get some coral frags. They are cheap and are not taking away from the already dewindling ocean corals and fish. There are so many tank bred fish and coral that i would hope people will start buying those instead of fish and corals from the ocean.


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## Ice

Frags are the way to go as far as getting corals rather from the ocean. Think Green ! LOL !!


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## TheOldSalt

Well, at least we can all agree on that, I think.


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## Fishfirst

A 10 gallon reef tank is definately tough. I've done it... but its not all that enjoyable LOL


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## leveldrummer

TheOldSalt said:


> What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations.
> Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.


what is this? i hope you were saying this in jest, these seem like some very hard comments for someone just leaving their opinion, instead of telling newbs that they are doomed to fail with a nano, why not help them be succesful? thousands and thousands of "all in one" cubes are being sold these days, and many many many newcomers are being very very succesful with them, salt water really isnt as hard as everyone makes it out, its actually WAY easier to do that freshwater. just more expensive. frankly i think freshwater can set you back, you spend all this time learning how to care for a freshwater tank, just to show up on a forum and say "im finally ready for a reef tank, ive been doing freshwater for years, and i just set up my first tank, it has 2 HOB filters, a canister filter, some NO lights, and its got a 5 inch deep crushed coral bed. so far i have 10 tangs and an anenome"

instead they could have been doing salt water from the beginning, and know how a skimmer works, and know about the proper lighting, and know why crushed coral and other mechanical filters are junk. get some good lights, a good skimmer, and some live rock. BOOM instant reef, change a couple gallons every week, and keep it topped off, what else is there?


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## CollegeReefer

Thanks level drummer and well said. The saltwater part of fishforums needs lots of help before it will ever grow.


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## leveldrummer

CollegeReefer said:


> Thanks level drummer and well said. The saltwater part of fishforums needs lots of help before it will ever grow.


i know of at least 5 people that have never had a tank before, they went out, bought a nano cube, with just a tiny bit of bad advice from a fish store, they stocked it, and it has been doing great for a couple years, its actually very simple.


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## fishfingers

Yeah thanks for sticking up for us LD. As I've said in another post I've found most people here to be very helpful but tbh TOS's comment did cut a little deep. I tend to ignore things like that though.

Its good to hear you know of some people who have done a nano tank on their first go. I'm sure it could be done, but I've never talked to anyone whos done it, with people usually saying "it's to hard, I'll learn with FW first". Now that I've accomplished tropicals, cichlids and reef tanks, I'm surprised I thought this when I first began. You sum everything up nicely, well done.


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## Damon

leveldrummer said:


> instead they could have been doing salt water from the beginning, and know how a skimmer works, and know about the proper lighting, and know why crushed coral and other mechanical filters are junk. get some good lights, a good skimmer, and some live rock. BOOM instant reef, change a couple gallons every week, and keep it topped off, what else is there?


There is know about liverock placement, waterflow importance for different types of corals, fish who will or will not nip at corals, coral placement, what to look for when purchasing a coral, how to treat a sw tank (different than fw), hitchhikers than can arrive and if they are good or bad. I could go on but you know this stuff already................

Again I'm not saying it cant be done. Its just much harder.........

And for every 1 person you know that started with a nano and it thrived, I can list 10 who failed..........


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## CollegeReefer

Damon said:


> There is know about liverock placement, waterflow importance for different types of corals, fish who will or will not nip at corals, coral placement, what to look for when purchasing a coral, how to treat a sw tank (different than fw), hitchhikers than can arrive and if they are good or bad. I could go on but you know this stuff already................
> 
> Again I'm not saying it cant be done. Its just much harder.........
> 
> And for every 1 person you know that started with a nano and it thrived, I can list 10 who failed..........


You need to know the same thing for a larger tank though as well.

FishFingers,

My first and only tank is my aquapod 24 which is still considered as a nano tank.


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## TheOldSalt

*sigh*

The thing you are forgetting though, is that larger tanks have the inherent quality of having a lot more room for error in them. They are safer by far than small ones, and beginners have no business doing anything unsafe since they'll have enough problems.
As for your snappy comeback to Damon, yes, you do have to know these things for both large and small tanks. However, in a larger tank you actually have room to put that info to actual USE. Coral placement factors of flow and lighting/height are vastly easier to account for in a tank with some room in it. Wit nanos, you're just stuck with what you've got pretty uniformly throughout the tank. Corals fight, too, and exude, and spacing them correctly is again a lot easier if you have the space.
A nano limits your ability to do things correctly, plain and simple. You _can_ do things acceptably well in a small tank, of course, but your choices will be greatly limited as a result, since fewer species can work together well in such close quarters. So yes, if you limit your selections to such species, and if you know what their specific needs are, and if you take the time to place them correctly to meet those needs, then you can succeed with a nano tank nearly effortlessly. 
So, then...how many beginners are going to know these things? Not many.

I'm sick of this recurring argument. Nanos and novices do not mix. Period. There are exceptions to every rule, sure, but there's a very good reason that they _are_ rules in the first place.


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## CollegeReefer

TheOldSalt said:


> A nano limits your ability to do things correctly, plain and simple. You _can_ do things acceptably well in a small tank, of course, but your choices will be greatly limited as a result, since fewer species can work together well in such close quarters. So yes, if you limit your selections to such species, and if you know what their specific needs are, and if you take the time to place them correctly to meet those needs, then you can succeed with a nano tank nearly effortlessly.
> So, then...how many beginners are going to know these things? Not many.


So why not take your experience and help those who want to start a nano tank. Spread the word of what they can and can not have in the nano tank. Show them what corals need to be seperate from others. Tell them what fish are appropiate for a nano tank. If they come looking for awnsers they are showing that they want to know these things so they can be successfull. And as you stated above, if the begginer knows what species, specific needs, and takes the time to place the coral they "can succeed with a nano tank nearly effortlessly." And this of course is my belief. Never thought I would hear you say that.


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## leveldrummer

it took you about 2 minutes to type that, and that is all that is needed for a noob that wants to set up a nano, i just have a real problem with how everyone here makes salt water sound like rocket science, it is a little bit more involved, but like damon said, if you want to learn, it can be done, people show up here all the time from freshwater ( i did it myself not too long ago!) and ask how to transfer everything, and for me... learning all the differences were much harder than just learning salt in the first place would have been. 

its much easier to say "nano's are impossible for a noob, dont do it" then to say " just make sure you stock it right" 
if any of you arent interested in walking people through setting up a nano, then why are you even on this site? you obviously dont have questions yourself, so if your not willing to help with something that is obviously effortless, than you must be here to show off or brag about something. it dont make sense.

i think it would make much more sense to start with a nano, you end up putting 60$ worth of coral and fish in it, and if it crashes... so what? now if you start with a 75, and drop about 2000 grand in coral and fish and it crashes, your probably gonna quit the hobby. its not the size of the tank that causes a crash, its the mistakes that people make, and crashing a nano isnt near as big of a deal as crashing a big tank. and if they do crash it, (which may or may NOT be more likely) at least they arent pawning their car title to get it back up.


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## leveldrummer

pevine, im very sorry this discussion has totally hijacked your thread, you had a very valid question, and you probably dont even check it anymore simply because everyone scared you away.


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## TheOldSalt

"..._i think it would make much more sense to start with a nano, you end up putting 60$ worth of coral and fish in it, and if it crashes... so what?..._"

There. Right there. THAT is the very reason I don't bother helping people like you. Why cast pearls before cheapskate swine who will promptly ignore any advice given and do whatever is seemingly cheapest and easiest, since it doesn't really matter to them anyway?

"..._its not the size of the tank that causes a crash, its the mistakes that people make, and crashing a nano isnt near as big of a deal as crashing a big tank_...."

Oh. I BEG to differ. 
First of all, those mistakes are easily absorbed and rendered safer in a bigger tank, which means that making a nanoreef is only the _first_ of those mistakes. 
Next, I'm sure all the dead nanoreef critters will be happy to know that their demises aren't a big deal. Of course, when you consider that for every big tank set up correctly there are several dozen little glass coffins all adding to the compounded slaughter, it suddenly becomes quite clear why nanoreefing among noobs must be discouraged, NOT encouraged. The allure of nanoreefing is very strong, and it attracts a lot of people who don't care if the animals live or die so long as it isn't expensive, and since it isn't expensive, they don't take enough time to do things properly, thereby snowballing the problem. People who just slap a nanoreef together, thinking it's going to be simplicity itself because they read on the internet that it is, and because it's cheaper, are the ones who quit the most, having had no real investment in their systems and also because they of course FAIL the most. A few people doing it right have a much lower environmental impact than hordes doing it wrong. ( or hordes doing it right, for that matter )

NOW do you see why I'm so against nanos for noobs, and the promotion of same?

There ARE several groups working very hard to shut this hobby down completely, and one of these days, if this trend continues, they are going to have enough evidence, in the form of failure rates, to put a serious hurting on us. _Again._ We MUST do what we can to prevent those failures, and while education and training are ideally very useful tools for that, your own attitude demonstrates why they alone won't work.

Oh, and finally, while I'm on a roll, all fishkeeping is the same. The big differences between fresh and salt are artificial and all in your mind. It's simply a matter of range. All the same things happen, but in different ways in different ranges, which means that learning to keep one type really does help you learn how to keep another. You are looking at fresh and salt as two completely different things, when in fact they are not different at all. Once you get past that you'll understand the flaws of your argument. The only extra things you have to learn when switching from one to the other are those few little ways the same processes are carried out differently, and how to account for them in practice. Piece of cake.


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## CollegeReefer

leveldrummer said:


> i think it would make much more sense to start with a nano, you end up putting 60$ worth of coral and fish in it, and if it crashes... so what? now if you start with a 75, and drop about 2000 grand in coral and fish and it crashes, your probably gonna quit the hobby. its not the size of the tank that causes a crash, its the mistakes that people make, and crashing a nano isnt near as big of a deal as crashing a big tank. and if they do crash it, (which may or may NOT be more likely) at least they arent pawning their car title to get it back up.


I am not with you on this one leveldrummer. I hate it when someones tank crashes because they don't do what they need to do to keep it going. I also don't like the idea of shrugging off the loss of life. When it comes to tank size, a small mistake in a small tank can cause the tank to crash where as in the larger tank the mistake will be almost unoticed. I have have a 20 gallon, 40 gallon and a 75 gallon and i will admidt that my nano is more work, but i love putting in the work. I check the parameters almost everyday. Add ro/di water everyday. I spend a lot more time with the 20 gallon then the other tanks.


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## Damon

CollegeReefer said:


> I am not with you on this one leveldrummer. I hate it when someones tank crashes because they don't do what they need to do to keep it going. I also don't like the idea of shrugging off the loss of life. When it comes to tank size, a small mistake in a small tank can cause the tank to crash where as in the larger tank the mistake will be almost unoticed. I have have a 20 gallon, 40 gallon and a 75 gallon and i will admidt that my nano is more work, but i love putting in the work. I check the parameters almost everyday. Add ro/di water everyday. I spend a lot more time with the 20 gallon then the other tanks.


Ahh.... Refreshing.


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## Fishfirst

I think that nanos should not be _encouraged_ to people who haven't had fish before, or people who haven't had fish for very long, or for people who have had freshwater but have never had saltwater. Everyday at work, I meet someone who wants a nano tank, but has no clue how to even mix the salt. Now I'm not saying that with some good research, hard work, and a good forum like this one to help someone along, that it can't be done successfully... but I think most newbies don't want to take the time to do these things, nor have the motivation. 
At work, even talking about mixing salt turns people away from getting a saltwater tank... the average newbie wants to take as little time learning as possible. So WHY encourage it? WHY promote it? There isn't a good reason besides having that 1 in 20 newbie who actually cares about the fish and does well, and THAT is the newbie who will take advise and get a larger tank to start with, OR get the largest possible tank he/she can afford even if it may be a little small on the gallonage side of things. These people with the "great idea" of "going saltwater" don't even recognize half the time that these fish are being harvested from the ocean, much less understand the nitrogen cycle, FISHKEEPING 101 here!!!! 

I would like to say that we on fishforums have a responsibility to discourage people from doing a nano tank... at least at first. BUT if someone does still wants a nano tank after a few posts discouraging it, and they are willing to put in the time to research and work... we must do our best to set them up the right way, and do everything we can to help them. Lets try not to debate whether a nano is a good idea anymore, because the truth is... it isn't a good idea for most folks. So lets help the newbies that really want to make the effort and not the ones who want to start a nano on a whim.


This arguement has been beaten to death. The points have been made... the user is on a vacation from the forums right now, and this thread has worn out its use. This thread is closed.


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