# Dont forget about that kid in the backseat



## Osiris

It's sad when they have to create devices and safety for leaving ur/a kid in the backseat of car cuz u forgot :chair: :chair:

http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/8819907.html


Sure that person should even be having kids allowed to have kids, if cant even remember them :chair:


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## Bear

Now how terrible is that! Forget ur kid in the backseat....idiots


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## Apotheosis

It can happen to even the best of parents. 

People make mistakes.


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## Apotheosis

I never said it happens to everyone, but it really can happen to _anyone_. If the kid is being quiet or falls asleep in the back of the car, the parent can forget more easily than one would think. 

But you're right. Most of the time it's because they get carried away with something that should only take a very short amount of time. No one should EVER leave a baby in the car alone for any amount of time. Leaving a child alone in a car deliberately rather than accidentally is a whole different story. Those parents are idiots who should have never had children.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/20/earlyshow/contributors/tracysmith/main689559.shtml



> Now how terrible is that! Forget ur kid in the backseat....idiots


That doesn't make them idiots. So many parents say the same thing, "that's horrible, I would never forget my child in the backseat", but it happens to them.


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## Ice

I never forget my 4 yr old in the backseat cuz he always tells me "I wanna go in !!!" LOL !!!

Unfortunately things like this do happen. It's kinda hard to fathom how a parent can actually forget their own children in their cars.


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## SBDTHUR

I think that parent's who leave there kid in the car are dumb. My parent's aren't the greatest on the face of the earth, but when I was a little kid I remeber they either didn't leave me in the car. Or they left me and my sister in the car, my sister being 3 years older then me, she'd always keep the air running with the car on and lock the doors! 

It really depends on what your reason was. If your saying you just forgot, that's like droping your kid's off in the desert. But without the sand.


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## Apotheosis

SBDTHUR said:


> Or they left me and my sister in the car, my sister being 3 years older then me, she'd always keep the air running with the car on and lock the doors!


Well, that's not really the best thing to do either. haha

The kid could get his arm stuck in the window (assuming its powered) or put the car in gear and who knows what would happen then....


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## Bear

Apotheosis said:


> The kid could get his arm stuck in the window


haha....good stuff


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## Guest

I can't find a good excuse to justify the actions of these parents. What's the excuse when social services knocks on their door? "I _forgot_ to feed them. It was an honest mistake."

"I _forgot_ to bring my child with me and not leave them in a car in blistering heat."

There is no excuse. A parent's child is their resposibility and whether it be remembering they are in the car with them, picking them up from school, or feeding them....a good parent cannot forget that they are responsible for the life of another human being.


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## Apotheosis

Scuba Kid said:


> I can't find a good excuse to justify the actions of these parents. What's the excuse when social services knocks on their door? "I _forgot_ to feed them. It was an honest mistake."


There is a bit of a difference though. The child can let you know when its hungry. If the child is too young to talk, he/she will cry. 

However, a baby in the backseat that is asleep and makes no sound whatsoever is comparable to say, throwing your cell phone into the backseat and forgetting about it when you stop your car, get out, and go wherever you have to go. That may sound bad, comparing a baby to a cell phone, but you have to understand that:

-The baby is asleep, and makes no sound to remind you it's there.
-The parent has alot on his/her mind and gets carried away in thought. 
-People do forget things, and it is not as hard as you think to forget a dead-quiet baby in the backseat. It's not like the parent is repeating in his/her head 5 billion times "don't forget baby, don't forget baby, don't forget baby, don't forget baby".

It's really sad to hear stories like that, but it happens. I'm glad that there is a device coming out that will alert parents if they leave their child in the car.

I provided a link earlier. I'll pull out the part that relates to where I'm coming from:



> To Melanie and Ed Hynes, who had just had a baby of their own, it was unthinkable.
> 
> "I said, 'What kind of idiot would leave their child in a vehicle?' " Ed remembers.
> 
> "I had told him, 'If you ever forgot her, I would kill you!" Melanie says.
> 
> "It was like, who would do that? A precious child like that? A gift from god?" Ed continued.
> 
> The baby, Mackenzee, was daddy's girl.
> 
> "He doted over her," Melanie recalls. "When we went places together and we got out of the car, that was the first thing he did, was get her out of the car."
> 
> That's why what happened just two weeks later July was such a shock, Smith observes.
> 
> "I was supposed to drop Mackenzee off," Ed says. "And she ended up falling asleep in the back seat."
> 
> Ed went to work, forgetting Mackenzee was still in the car.
> 
> Eight hours later, Melanie called.
> 
> "I said, 'Ed, where's Mackenzee? She's not at day care. And the phone went dead. And I knew."
> 
> "Did you know when you got to the car that she was gone?" Smith asked Ed.
> "Yeah. I didn't want to believe it. But, yeah."
> 
> "When I got there, they were pulling her out of the car," Melannie cried. "And they wouldn't let me hold her. They wouldn't let me touch her. They kept pulling me back and wouldn't let me touch her."
> 
> Mackenzee died of hyperthermia, Smith reports. As the car sat in the Florida sun, her body temperature hit 107 degrees.
> 
> "You know," Smith remarked to Ed and Melanie, "there are people out there who look at you guys and can divorce themselves from your story by saying, 'I would never do that. What do you say to them?"
> 
> "We were the same way," Melanie responded. "It never crossed our minds that we would ever have to go through anything like this."
> 
> "You have things on your mind, you're thinking about the rest of your day, you're thinking about what you're going to do next, and you just get, as cruel as it sounds, it escapes your mind," Ed explains.


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## Guest

I don't care how quiet the baby is. Doesn't matter. The fact is, that parent is responsible over a human life. Its not simple enough to say, "Its easy to forget a baby in the car. These things happen." Know what? They shouldn't. Its beyond irresponsibility when these things happen.


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## Apotheosis

I understand your point. It is the parent's responsibility. 

I'm just not sure if the punishment should be nearly as severe as if the parent left the baby in the car _intentionally_. You know? 

Sometimes, knowing that it's your fault you lost your child is as bad as punishment could get. You would have to live the rest of your life knowing that you were the reason your child died. It's not something you shrug off.

In that actual case I quoted, no charges were filed against the father.



> No charges have been filed against Ed Hynes.
> 
> But his family says losing Mackenzee is, in its own way, a life sentence.
> 
> "I don't think there's a bigger punishment than that," Melanie says. "I don't think any amount of prison time or jail could ever punish as bad as living with the fact every day that she's not with us."


EDIT: I found this interesting:



> The AP identified more than 220 cases in which the caregiver admitted leaving the child behind. More than three-quarters of those people claim they simply forgot.
> 
> It's easy to forget your keys or that cup of coffee on the roof. But a child?
> 
> The awful truth, experts say, is that the stressed-out brain can bury a thought -- something as trite as a coffee cup or crucial as a baby -- and go on autopilot. While researchers once thought the different parts of the brain worked in conjunction with each other, they now realize that different portions dominate at different times.
> 
> "The value of the item is not only not relevant in these competing memory systems," says memory expert David Diamond, an associate psychology professor at the University of South Florida. "But, in fact, we can be more complacent because we tell ourselves, 'There's no way I would forget my child."'
> 
> Nationwide, about 60 percent of cases where the child was left unintentionally result in charges. But policies vary wildly from one jurisdiction to the next.
> 
> At least nine children in Las Vegas have died in hot vehicles since 1998, but charges were filed in only two of those cases. For several years, it has been the policy of the Clark County prosecutor's office not to file charges unless there is proof of "some general criminal intent ... to put the child in harm's way," says chief deputy DA Tom Carroll.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/26/left.2.die.ap/index.html


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## gemjunkie

There is NO excuse for leaving your child in a car, NONE PERIOD. People that do, should NOT be allowed to have them EVER AGAIN. A child that young and small depends on YOU for EVERYTHING, most important their SAFETY! 

'I Forgot', that's a cop out. That is trying to lay blame away from themselves. 'Oh, it wasn't my fault, I forgot!' What a load of hog wash.... Don't even try to justify it...


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## Apotheosis

gemjunkie said:


> There is NO excuse for leaving your child in a car, NONE PERIOD. People that do, should NOT be allowed to have them EVER AGAIN. A child that young and small depends on YOU for EVERYTHING, most important their SAFETY!
> 
> 'I Forgot', that's a cop out. That is trying to lay blame away from themselves. 'Oh, it wasn't my fault, I forgot!' What a load of hog wash.... Don't even try to justify it...


So you think that in every case the parent did it on purpose? Don't be so quick to judge. Let's try to reserve judgement to those parents that it happens to. 

When your brain gets so caught up in things, and when you're extremely stressed, it is not hard to forget things. You can't deny that. When you're extremely busy and stressed, you usually lose all thought of anything else _other_ than what you're focused on. 

Did you even bother to read what I posted?



> It's easy to forget your keys or that cup of coffee on the roof. But a child?
> 
> The awful truth, experts say, is that the *stressed-out brain can bury a thought* -- *something as trite as a coffee cup or crucial as a baby -- and go on autopilot*. While researchers once thought the different parts of the brain worked in conjunction with each other, they now realize that different portions dominate at different times.
> 
> "*The value of the item* is not only *not relevant* in these competing memory systems," says memory expert David Diamond, an associate psychology professor at the University of South Florida. "*But, in fact, we can be more complacent because we tell ourselves, 'There's no way I would forget my child.*"


From http://www.cnn.com/2007/LIVING/wayoflife/07/26/left.2.die.ap/index.html

Let's debate with logic rather than emotion.

I'm not saying this is something that should be brushed off. It is absolutely horrible and the parents should be punished. I can't even imagine what a child goes through when it's left in a hot car by itself to die.


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## wm_crash

Killing a child (by leaving in hot car or otherwise) is the greatest crime and deserves the greatest punishment. There is no excuse. There is no explanation. There is no forgiveness for deserting the child that one is supposed to protect. Yes parents forget things, but are not allowed to forget that they are parents.

take care,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Apotheosis

Thanks for ignoring my posts. Do you honestly think there is more of a punishment than having to live every day without your flesh and blood?

Stress affects everyone differently. It can be so extreme to where people forget things. That is all I will say.

I'm done with this thread, since everyone is ignoring my contentions. 

...and because I hate arguing. :mrgreen:


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## Ice Prince

well for someone who hates arguing you put up great fight. yea wouldnt knowing that you accidentally killed your child be enough punishment?


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## gemjunkie

The greatest gift we are given is our children and WE are supposed to protect them, if we don't or aren't willing to ALL THE TIME, they are taken away one way or another.

Killing a child under ANY conditions is WRONG be it ignorance or negligence or murder. 

I read your posts, doesn't mean I have to agree with them....


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## wm_crash

Justin my friend,

I don't ignore what you say. I read what you write. The problem is, you are clouding the situation with too much afferent information. Once you remove all smoke and mirrors, it boils down to four words: parent killed the kid. And from there, it is easy to judge clearly.

Yes indeed like you say, stress does things to people, and so do the in-laws, and the global warming, and the migration of the butterflies, and the price of gas, and the three-eyed green aliens from Mars. But that is all distracting stories. When you bring a kid into the world, you accept ALL responsibilities related to that. To fail at those responsibilities is a crime.

And no, the burden on once's conscience is by far NOT enough punishment.

cheers,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Apotheosis

All I was saying in my posts is that people forget. It is human nature. Can we agree there? And I did say it was the parent's responsibility to not let their child roast in a car. I never brushed it off. I think that humans make mistakes and that no one is perfect. Am I wrong for thinking that? 

I do admit though, I thrive off complexity and that can sometimes work against me. If I do get too afferent, let me know.


I don't want to argue, but I find this intriguing. 

So you assume that intention and accident are no different from each other? 

Do you think that parents who purposedly left their children in the car should receive the same punishment as parents who forgot?

What do you propose as punishment?


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## Zoe

Apotheosis said:


> So you assume that intention and accident are no different from each other?
> 
> Do you think that parents who purposedly left their children in the car should receive the same punishment as parents who forgot?


When the end result is a child dying, then no, there is no difference between 'forgetting' and 'I didn't think the car would get that hot in the two minutes I ran in to get coffee.'

Yes, people forget. It's not human nature, but a fault of our brains. But a quiet baby is NOT the same thing as a cup of coffee. Forgetting your baby is not acceptable. People who forget their babies in cars are idiots, as are the people who leave them in the car to "run into the store" for a few minutes.

When I get out of a car, leave a table, restaurant, etc, I take a moment to glance around and make sure I haven't forgotten anything under my seat, on the table, etc. I have yet to forget anything, be it a coffee or a cell phone or anything else. If I can manage that, with normal daily stresses, then any normal person can remember their baby. If they can't, they are not fit to be parents.


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## Apotheosis

Ok, and what punishment do you think would be appropriate? 

Basically, what I want to know is how parents could forget their children. Is it because of extreme stress? Or because they don't care about their children (which would seem contrary to what I've gathered)? If not, then what?

I don't know who to trust: a psychology professor or fish forum members. When I thought about it, it seemed pretty rational - that stress can make you forget things. I've experienced that, and it didn't matter the importance of what I forgot. Personally, when I'm really stressed, I become unaware about everything other than what I'm stressed about. It's like I don't realize what's happening around me; only what's happening in my head, what I'm thinking about.

And I'm not saying that it's an excuse, but rather an influence. It's the parent's fault regardless if he/she is stressed or not. The parent is the reason the child is dead.


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## wm_crash

Doooood,

I think you are simply regurgitating what the psycho guy said without trying to make sense of it. And if you have to compare between the psychology professor in need of publicity and the fish folk who actually _have_ kids and talk from experience, then you figure out who's to trust.

And Justin doooood, if at 16 stress gets to you in a manner that makes you forget about everything else but what stressing you, then you need to get a hold of this matter and fix it. 

So you ask what punishement would be appropriate. In the spirit of punishment matching the crime, they should be strapped in a car and left to roast in the Arizona sun. Does that sound fair to you?

One final word, please don't be stressed over this conversation (it's not even an argument) that we're having. We're just shooting the sh!t, this is still a fish forum.

take care,
wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


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## Osiris

There is absolutely no excuse for forgetting a child in the car, NONE. 

Sitting in court, and saying "o i forgot" hell no that ain't a excuse, there is no excuse!

Fair punishment u ask? Life in prison. Maybe Mexico prison :chair:


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## Zoe

Apotheosis said:


> Ok, and what punishment do you think would be appropriate?
> 
> Basically, what I want to know is how parents could forget their children. Is it because of extreme stress? Or because they don't care about their children (which would seem contrary to what I've gathered)? If not, then what?
> 
> I don't know who to trust: a psychology professor or fish forum members. When I thought about it, it seemed pretty rational - that stress can make you forget things. I've experienced that, and it didn't matter the importance of what I forgot. Personally, when I'm really stressed, I become unaware about everything other than what I'm stressed about. It's like I don't realize what's happening around me; only what's happening in my head, what I'm thinking about.
> 
> And I'm not saying that it's an excuse, but rather an influence. It's the parent's fault regardless if he/she is stressed or not. The parent is the reason the child is dead.


Why is this professor so important to you? You're focussing on the question, not the logic behind the REALITY of forgetting your child in a car. A professor can say anything - doesn't make it right. You'll get the best melee of opinions from regular people (such as those on fish forums). Not everyone is right, but it's better to share opinions and make your own conclusions (even if you don't agree with everyone), than plug your ears and say "la la la but the professor said la la la".

Parents who forget their children do it because they are irresponsible and not fit to be parents.

I can't imagine someone being SO stressed out about something they can forget things like cell phones and keys - let alone coffee. Unless you're going bankrupt, are worried about your secret other family, dying of cancer, and know you're about to get caught cross-dressing by your conservative Christian wife, there is NO excuse. Sounds like you may some issues dealing with stress? Like someone else suggested, now is the time to address this issue and get some help with it... BEFORE you have kids 

Reasonable punishment? Prison. Just like any other child death by neglect. I'm not saying life in Sing Sing or Alcatraz or anything, but just "letting them feel bad about it", is not enough.


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## Ice Prince

Good point baby_baby they might have childeren, but i bet that they get stressed out sometimes and they might forget somethings.


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## Buggy

Whoo, this subject is getting stickier by the minute!
I'm going to jump in here and give my 2 cents...for what it's worth.
Topic #1: Forgot about the child
I think it would be a VERY rare instance that someone could acturally forget the child is in the car. But there are some exceptions. New parents that are not used to having a child with them may forget that they have the child in the car. 
Topic #2: Stress caused parent to forget the child
It is more likely a case of DISTRACTION rather then STRESS that would cause the parent to forget. Running late, overly tired, distacted by someone else (i.e. phone call). Example: the forgotten cup of coffe. You sit the cup on the roof of the car, fish around for your keys, open the door, put in purse, packages, briefcase etc, sit down and start the car...like I said before, DISTRACTIONS.
Topic #3 Person that forgets child should not be a parent
Moot point. They didn't plan on this happening when they became a parent but the fact is, they are a parent. "Should" is irrelevent at this point.
Topic #4 Parent is "dumb", "stupid", "ignorant"
This is stating that the person is of low intelligence. Yet this can and does happen to highly intelligent people. Albert Einstein was extremely intelligent but would do seemingly stupid things like walk out into the street or forget to eat. He wasn't dumb, just not always in focus. Irresponsible is a better term.
Topic #5 Punishment for the "crime"
If you lose control of your car on an icy road and hit another car and the result is someones death, does that make you a murderer? Should you be punished as severly as if, say, you were drunk when it happened? NO! That is why the judicial system has varying degress of judgement. 1st degree murder is not the same as 2nd degree manslaughter. The unintentional death of a child should carry some degree of punishment but not the same as intentional death. 
Conclusion: This is a tragic and senseless thing to have happen. It shows very poor judgment, poor parenting skills and extreme irresponsiblity. But it doesn't make the person a hideous monster. It makes them HUMAN.

Ok, I'm done....bash away. LOL


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## Apotheosis

This may take awhile. Trying to answer everyone.



wm_crash said:


> Doooood,
> 
> I think you are simply regurgitating what the psycho guy said without trying to make sense of it. And if you have to compare between the psychology professor in need of publicity and the fish folk who actually _have_ kids and talk from experience, then you figure out who's to trust.
> 
> And Justin doooood, if at 16 stress gets to you in a manner that makes you forget about everything else but what stressing you, then you need to get a hold of this matter and fix it.
> 
> So you ask what punishement would be appropriate. In the spirit of punishment matching the crime, they should be strapped in a car and left to roast in the Arizona sun. Does that sound fair to you?
> 
> One final word, please don't be stressed over this conversation (it's not even an argument) that we're having. We're just shooting the sh!t, this is still a fish forum.
> 
> take care,
> wm_crash, the friendly hooligan


I do not get stressed alot at all. And I am not stressed over this conversation. However, I forget things when I'm under stress. No one is perfect, we must remember that.

I'm not sure on the punishment myself. Part of my brain is saying "eye for an eye punishment is flawed and doesn't accomplish anything". Another part of my brain is saying "eye for an eye punishment seems fair". 

However, there is no evidence that suggests that if the parent who left their kid in the car would ever do it again. IF THERE IS, please give me a source.



> There is absolutely no excuse for forgetting a child in the car, NONE.
> 
> Sitting in court, and saying "o i forgot" hell no that ain't a excuse, there is no excuse!


Indeed. I completely agree.



> Why is this professor so important to you? You're focussing on the question, not the logic behind the REALITY of forgetting your child in a car. A professor can say anything - doesn't make it right. You'll get the best melee of opinions from regular people (such as those on fish forums). Not everyone is right, but it's better to share opinions and make your own conclusions (even if you don't agree with everyone), than plug your ears and say "la la la but the professor said la la la".
> 
> Parents who forget their children do it because they are irresponsible and not fit to be parents.
> 
> I can't imagine someone being SO stressed out about something they can forget things like cell phones and keys - let alone coffee. Unless you're going bankrupt, are worried about your secret other family, dying of cancer, and know you're about to get caught cross-dressing by your conservative Christian wife, there is NO excuse. Sounds like you may some issues dealing with stress? Like someone else suggested, now is the time to address this issue and get some help with it... BEFORE you have kids
> 
> Reasonable punishment? Prison. Just like any other child death by neglect. I'm not saying life in Sing Sing or Alcatraz or anything, but just "letting them feel bad about it", is not enough.


I NEVER ONCE SAID IT WAS OK TO FORGET THE CHILD, NOR THAT IT IS AN EXCUSE. lol

You people seem to think so. I'm only contemplating if stress could cause something like that. None of you would obviously be able to judge that universally. I'm sure you all handle stress well and are completely flawless human beings, perfect in every way. However, I pointed out that people handle stress differently and that leaving the child in the car as a result of it CAN HAPPEN. No one can disagree with that because no one can judge others in such a situation. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S OKAY. I THINK IT IS HORRIBLE. THERE IS NO EXCUSE. PARENTS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY OF PROTECTING THEIR CHILDREN FROM HARM. Thought I should make that clear. ;-) 



> Whoo, this subject is getting stickier by the minute!
> I'm going to jump in here and give my 2 cents...for what it's worth.
> Topic #1: Forgot about the child
> I think it would be a VERY rare instance that someone could acturally forget the child is in the car. But there are some exceptions. New parents that are not used to having a child with them may forget that they have the child in the car.
> Topic #2: Stress caused parent to forget the child
> It is more likely a case of DISTRACTION rather then STRESS that would cause the parent to forget. Running late, overly tired, distacted by someone else (i.e. phone call). Example: the forgotten cup of coffe. You sit the cup on the roof of the car, fish around for your keys, open the door, put in purse, packages, briefcase etc, sit down and start the car...like I said before, DISTRACTIONS.
> Topic #3 Person that forgets child should not be a parent
> Moot point. They didn't plan on this happening when they became a parent but the fact is, they are a parent. "Should" is irrelevent at this point.
> Topic #4 Parent is "dumb", "stupid", "ignorant"
> This is stating that the person is of low intelligence. Yet this can and does happen to highly intelligent people. Albert Einstein was extremely intelligent but would do seemingly stupid things like walk out into the street or forget to eat. He wasn't dumb, just not always in focus. Irresponsible is a better term.
> Topic #5 Punishment for the "crime"
> If you lose control of your car on an icy road and hit another car and the result is someones death, does that make you a murderer? Should you be punished as severly as if, say, you were drunk when it happened? NO! That is why the judicial system has varying degress of judgement. 1st degree murder is not the same as 2nd degree manslaughter. The unintentional death of a child should carry some degree of punishment but not the same as intentional death.
> Conclusion: This is a tragic and senseless thing to have happen. It shows very poor judgment, poor parenting skills and extreme irresponsiblity. But it doesn't make the person a hideous monster. It makes them HUMAN.


Hmm, where to start. I suppose I can address this issue in the same way you did.

1. Very rare perhaps. We do not know though because we cannot read the minds of parents who do this. This is why I say we shouldn't judge them as evil parents who don't care for their children. 100% agree with you in that new parents are especially susceptible forgetting their children.

2. Indeed. However, stress in itself can be a distraction. Stress combined with other distractions could cause the parent to forget. I'm not sure. I wouldn't know. None of us would know unless it ever happened to us.

3. 100% agree with you there. They are responsible for their children, but unexpected things happen. Horrible things. If in all cases, the parents did it intentionally, then it's obvious they should not be parents. However, we do not know this for sure because, like I said earlier, we are not them...we do not know if they did indeed forget the child. I know that my mom forgot me at a park, but found out a few minutes later, and immediately turned back around to get me. Does that make her a bad parent? I do not think so. She is the best mother in the world.

4. 100% agree again. 

5. You make a good point with that example. Although, most would probably combat that by saying, "the person had no control over that death, whereas a parent does with a child in the backseat." However, sometimes we don't have control over our own actions. The mind and the body can sometimes act against each other. That's just what I believe. Others would probably disagree with me.

K, done.


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## Zoe

> If you lose control of your car on an icy road and hit another car and the result is someones death, does that make you a murderer? Should you be punished as severly as if, say, you were drunk when it happened? NO! That is why the judicial system has varying degress of judgement. 1st degree murder is not the same as 2nd degree manslaughter. The unintentional death of a child should carry some degree of punishment but not the same as intentional death.


There's a huge difference between losing control of a car on an icy road, and forgetting you're driving (say, falling asleep at the wheel?). Falling asleep or passing out at the wheel is as bad as intentionally ramming someone with your car. You don't have mens rea, of course, because it's an accident, but it still calls for harsh punishment because you CAN'T make those kinds of mistakes when other people are involved.




> It shows very poor judgment, poor parenting skills and extreme irresponsiblity. But it doesn't make the person a hideous monster. It makes them HUMAN.


Huh? Forgetting your kid in a car and letting the child die makes the parent HUMAN? No way. They were human to begin with; all this does is make them terrible people. The ones who are "human" are those who will break the window of a stranger's car to save the baby; not the person who stepped out without a second thought about the little human in the back seat.


Anyway, this doesn't make the parents "evil"; but you cease to be a good person when you allow distractions to make you forget about your baby, resulting in its death. They are all excuses, anyway. But saying "Well, they're only human, they were probably stressed and forgot!" is dismissive and irresponsible.


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## Apotheosis

> The ones who are "human" are those who will break the window of a stranger's car to save the baby; not the person who stepped out without a second thought about the little human in the back seat.


What if all of their other thoughts are shoved away? What if their brain is so caught up in something that everything else is irrelevant?

Can you provide me with a source that says that couldn't happen? Otherwise, you're completely basing everything you say off opinion.


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## Zoe

No no, I agree it can happen, because obviously it DOES happen. People get distracted and forget about things. That's a fact, obviously.

What is opinion is that this is not acceptable. If you're a parent, and you get distracted or stressed and forget your baby, that is completely inacceptable. Normal daily stresses and distractions cannot make your baby "irrelevant".

It does happen, over 30 to 40 times a year in America. Doesn't make it okay. 

That's all I'm saying. 

And just because some professor thinks so, I will never consider it to be "understandable" for a parent to forget their baby because of daily distractions.


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## Apotheosis

Ok, ok, I was just making sure. 

And I agree with what you say. It IS unacceptable. There are no excuses whatsoever. 

The psychology professor that I quoted did not say it was _okay_; he was pointing out that it can _happen_, which is what I was getting at.


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## Zoe

I think when it all boils down we're all saying the same thing. It *can* happen, obviously, because it *does* happen... But it certainly isn't responsible parenting behaviour


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## Osiris

dont u guys ever watch carlos mencia?


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## Zoe

Baby_Baby said:


> We need a professor to say it can happen when it already has?
> 
> Dang if I could make money pointing out the obvious...


Haha, touche!


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## Apotheosis

Baby_Baby said:


> We need a professor to say it can happen when it already has?
> 
> Dang if I could make money pointing out the obvious...


I pretty much pointed out the obvious in my first post, but you guys had to bash what I said. lol



> It can happen to even the best of parents.
> 
> People make mistakes.


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## Osiris

That mistake cost a child their life, thus forth, the parents life shall be taken away with life in prison.


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## Apotheosis

Oh yay, now we can argue about punishment. 

Perhaps they should receive the same treatment? Let them bake in a car for 8 hours?

That would be interesting. LOL, that reminds of the time in AP Govt last year, when we had to do group projects and make our own countries and government, and one group said that they would have equal punishment. Like if you ran someone over with a bus, you should get run over with a bus.


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## Ice Prince

thats what my social studies teacher said one time during class.


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## Guest

Apotheosis said:


> I pretty much pointed out the obvious in my first post, but you guys had to bash what I said. lol


If a parent forgets their child in the car, then they are NOT THE BEST OF PARENTS. Thats what is wrong with your thinking...good parents do not leave their children in the back of their car to die in the heat. Good parents remember about their children no matter what else is going on around them.


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## Damon

Apotheosis said:


> It can happen to even the best of parents.
> 
> People make mistakes.


No it cant. And this is completely unacceptable. I have never left my child (or nieces or nephews or any other kid) in the back seat of a car.

People can and will make mistakes but there is a HUGE difference between locking your keys in the car while its running or bouncing a check vs endangering the life of a child.


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## Apotheosis

asdfghjkl

My perception of a good parent is one who loves and cares for his/her kids and would never want anything bad to happen to them.



> "Never think that this can't happen to you," she says,."And do everything in your power to prevent it from happening. Make a habit of always checking the backseat. Never, ever, intentionally leave a child alone in a vehicle. Not for a minute, not for a second, because those seconds could mean your child's life."
> 
> Experts say many of these cases do not involve deadbeat parents. These are loving, caring, and well educated parents, like doctors and lawyers, who forget their children in the backseat.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/21/earlyshow/living/ConsumerWatch/main710550_page2.shtml You don't have to agree with that. That's just similar to my opinion.

No one really answered my question before. My mom accidentally left me in a park by myself when I was really young (like 5 or so). She realized after driving off for a bit that I wasn't in the car with her, so she immediately turned around to get me.

Does that make her a bad parent?


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## Apotheosis

Scuba Kid said:


> *If a parent forgets their child in the car, then they are NOT THE BEST OF PARENTS. Thats what is wrong with your thinking...good parents do not leave their children in the back of their car to die in the heat*. Good parents remember about their children no matter what else is going on around them.


You're blatantly right. I said it could _happen_ to the best of parents. We were talking about them forgetting their children in the car. If they are good parents, they will realize this within seconds and run back to the car to get their child out. However, I do think that if they forget their kid and go and do something for 8 hours and realize their kid isn't with them, then they aren't the best of parents. The best of parents don't leave their kids to die in the heat.


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## Zoe

> No one really answered my question before. My mom accidentally left me in a park by myself when I was really young (like 5 or so). She realized after driving off for a bit that I wasn't in the car with her, so she immediately turned around to get me.
> 
> Does that make her a bad parent?


Yes! Yes it does! How can you leave a child alone at a park? There are so many things that could happen. I'm sure your mom is a nice person, but you can't say "I drove off and left my kid by himself at a park. But I came back from him when I remembered, so I'm still a good parent!"



> My perception of a good parent is one who loves and cares for his/her kids and would never want anything bad to happen to them.


There's more to it than that. You can't just love your kid but forget about them, and still consider yourself a good parent. You can't forget to feed them, forget to change their diapers, forget to bring them to the doctor's office, etc. A good parent, who doesn't want anything bad to happen to their child will focus all the time on not allowing something bad to happen, such as letting the child die in an overheating car.



> If they are good parents, they will realize this within seconds and run back to the car to get their child out.


That's a different situation altogether. We, you and your beloved professor are talking about children who die in a car as a result of being left there.


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## Apotheosis

Zoe said:


> Yes! Yes it does! How can you leave a child alone at a park? There are so many things that could happen. I'm sure your mom is a nice person, but you can't say "I drove off and left my kid by himself at a park. But I came back from him when I remembered, so I'm still a good parent!"


She turned around within seconds. I don't even think she really drove away. She said she backed her car out and then remembered me. That's the only time she's ever forgotten me anywhere. She never left me in a car and would never want me to die. She'd risk her life for my own. Call me crazy, but I don't think she's a horrible parent.




> There's more to it than that. You can't just love your kid but forget about them, and still consider yourself a good parent. You can't forget to feed them, forget to change their diapers, forget to bring them to the doctor's office, etc. A good parent, who doesn't want anything bad to happen to their child will focus all the time on not allowing something bad to happen, such as letting the child die in an overheating car.
> 
> 
> That's a different situation altogether. We, you and your beloved professor are talking about children who die in a car as a result of being left there.


I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say. I said that people aren't perfect and can forget. Parents forget. It happens. Good parents forget. It happens. However, everyone is right in that they *don't let their children die*.

Good parents can forget their children. Sometimes they may walk out of the door of their house, get in the car, and then immediately realize they left their kid in the house within seconds. They'll immediately go back into the house and get their child. 

Good parents can forget their kids in cars. They'll immediately realize this in seconds and go back and get their kids out of their cars.

I also said that good parents don't let their children die in hot cars. 

Not everyone is completely flawless. Just because parents forget their kids somewhere accidentally doesn't automatically label them as evil. 

However, if they forget and don't realize their mistake extremely soon, then yea, they probably aren't good parents.


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## Zoe

Apotheosis said:


> It can happen to even the best of parents.
> 
> People make mistakes.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were here refering to the parents who forgot their child in the car, resulting in the child's death - as opposed to parents who got sidetracked for a half second.



> I don't think you're understanding what I'm trying to say.


I think that's because you're saying something different from what you were saying earlier... I've lost track of your point 



> Good parents can forget their children.


For a second, yeah. But one second is completely inconsequential and not the subject of this topic. But the very act for actually forgetting a child and driving off or walking into a store is what makes them not good parents. I mean, you can't have it both ways. Either you're a good, responsible parent who place their children above all else and DON'T forget them; or you maybe you're a nice parent, but you forgot your kid in your car. Like my parents weren't the greatest, but they never forgot me anywhere (at least not that I can remember )


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## Apotheosis

Zoe said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were here refering to the parents who forgot their child in the car, resulting in the child's death - as opposed to parents who got sidetracked for a half second.


I was referring to parents forgetting their children in cars. I said it could happen to the best of parents - and it does, but they realize their mistake.



> I think that's because you're saying something different from what you were saying earlier... I've lost track of your point


I think I've been quite steady in my point -> that parents can forget their children. That no one is perfect. I never once said forgetting was an excuse for the child's death. Nor did I say that good parents let their children die in cars. If I did, show me where I did. All I recall posting about is how stress can cause parents to forget and that I didn't think that all parents who had left their kids to die in cars did it on purpose. 

I did argue about punishment though. I have different opinions on that. I don't like "eye for an eye punishment". I have my reasons. 

I thought things would be clear after my first couple of posts, but you guys continued to bash me. I NEVER said that people who left their kids in cars to die were good parents. Maybe you thought I implied that? I don't know.

The original post wasn't even about kids dying in cars. You guys brought that up.




> For a second, yeah. But one second is completely inconsequential and not the subject of this topic. But the very act for actually forgetting a child and driving off or walking into a store is what makes them not good parents. I mean, you can't have it both ways. Either you're a good, responsible parent who place their children above all else and DON'T forget them; or you maybe you're a nice parent, but you forgot your kid in your car. Like my parents weren't the greatest, but they never forgot me anywhere (at least not that I can remember )


People forget. We already discussed this. Good parents can forget. It happens. I'm sure your parents were perfect. However, not all parents are perfect.

I don't even know how we got into a discussion like this. The original post was about devices that alert parents when they forget their children in cars (which I think is genius). lol

This thread should be locked. It's been off-topic for like 2 pages now.


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