# Advice needed!



## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

I posted here a long time ago..here was the thread to refresh memories of whoever remembers me...

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/diseases/32001-nothing-but-problems-please-help.html

I'll try to keep this as short as possible. To try to keep it short, you will probably need to read...or at least skim the thread from my last post to understand all that happened.

So since then...I had that african brown knife in the tank, he was the only one to survive. I pretty much just left the tank and took a break from it for a while so to speak. I had some other things going on and the tank was the last thing on my mind. Every once in a while I would test the water, I used test strips. My ammonia stayed high...I tried using AmQuel ammonia remover for several days with no results..the test strips showed it went down a little, but never to 0.

Well after the ammonia stayed lower, I decided to try to get a couple more fish. Keep in mind, I still had the african brown knife in this tank all along. He did fine, never had a health problem with him. So this was about 1 1/2 months ago and I went to asmall petstore where I talked to a lady who did obviously knew a lot about fish. I told her about all the problems I have had, long story short, I came home with 3 tiger barbs and a product called "Stability" she told me to start using.

Well the same day I had also put stress coat and the amquel ammonia remover in the tank, and then I added the stability to the tank as well. The tiger barbs were only in the tank for 1 hour and all 3 were dead. Needless to say, I was very upset, but I figured it was my fault, that it was to many products at one time. 

Also, the lady had told me to stop using the ammonia remover because I needed to let the tank cycle more and if I kept adding it, I would never know where I stand with the ammonia. So I stopped using it.

So I let it sit for 2 weeks. The brown knife was still alive and doing well.(maybe i should just a tank full of brown knife's lol) Ammonia was still reading high, but I didn't add anything to the tank. I went back to the petstore, this time bringing a water sample. Surprisingly my ammonia according to her test, read 0. I didn't have any nitrites or nitrates but she said my PH was way to low. (was 6.0 or less) So she told me to start adding a PH agent to get my PH to at least 7.0. she said my tank should be cycled by now and once I get the PH up, I should be good. (keep in mind I had the brown knife fish in the tank all along, so this helped speed up the cycle probably)

So I came home(no fish this time) and started using the API powder stuff that supposed to just set the PH to 7.0. Well after about 2-3 days in a row of using this, my PH did not even budge at all. Was sitll reading 6.0. So I went buy a different product from Seachem, an alkaline buffer. Well it took about 2 days, and my PH finally went up. It spikes a bit to high at one point, but after a day came down between 7.0 to 7.2. So after a week of it staying this way, I decided to start getting fish again.

I gave the brown knife to someone because I decided to go back to the community fish. I am not going back to petsmart(for fish I mean) and the local petstore that I know had good quality fish only had community type of fish. They had a couple of semi aggressive and the cichlids, but much more of the community fish. So I would have more of a variety to choose from, I went back to the community fish.

So 3 weeks ago I got 4 fish. 2 creamsicle mollies( a pair) and 2 swordtails( though one is about to have to go, stupid me got two males and of course they are fighting now) They did fine so last week I got 6 neon tetras. A few days ago, I bought the master freshwater test kit that had the liquid testing agents instead of the strips. I figured they would be more accurate.

Im kind of worried right now though. All the fish are doing great(besides the fighting swordtails, i'm going to try to find him a new home this coming week, where I work, we have a fish tank with only 2 community fish, so im going to ask my boss if I can give her 1 of the swordtails) they are eating well, active, Ive been watching like a hawk for any signs of illness or other problems and I havnt seen any.

So its been a week with having 10 fish in the tank. The test kit is showing my ammonia is between 2.0ppm to 4.0ppm(the color is hard to compare sometimes) I have 0 nitrites, and my nitrates read 5.0ppm. My PH is still staying stable between 7.0-7.4(I have a couple of test things im using, and each reads a little different, and again colors are sometimes hard to compare with these kits).

So obviously, Im worried about the ammonia. I have been adding the stability for 4 days now. Im going by the directions on the bottle which says to use for 8 days (1st day you add the most,then the following 7 days you add less) And I have added stress coat the past 2 days. Figured this may help protect them from the ammonia?? 

Also, I started feeding only every other day as I read on here thats good to do, especially when cycling the tank. Though this is hard to do because they always act like they are starving!! especially the two mollies, theu are always at the top searching, especially when they see me by the tank! They are little piglets. lol When I do feed, I only put in a tiny amount at a time, let them eat all of it, before adding a tiny bit more. I do this a few times until they seem to get satisfied. I am feeding once a day at night. Is this ok? Or should I feed twice?? 

So any ideas what I should do? Is the tank just not cycled yet and this is normal, or should I do something? I don't want to do a water change and hurt the cycle, but I also don't want the ammonia to rise any higher than it is. I have learned so much about fish tanks and fish these past few months, yet I still feel like I know nothing and there is sooo much to keep track of, it gets overwhelming! 

I plan to get 2 dwarf gouramis, an algae eater and 2 cory cats and that will be it probably, but I want to get the water right and ammonia down, so I wont be adding anymore fish until I do so.

Tank stats:
26 gallon bow front tank
24'L x 15'W x 21"H
100 watt heater-temp is about 76* and stays pretty stable(i find my thermometer a bit confusing to read, may have to find a different one)
quiet flow filter 55. For 45-60 gallon tanks (biggest filter that will fit the hood of my tank)
Fish: 6 neon tetras, 2 creamsicle mollies and 2 swordtails

Thanks for reading if you got this far! lol Any advice appreciated! I hope this was understandable and made since! I tried covering everything that has gone on in the last 5 months and keep it as short as possible. lol I'm trying my best to do things right this time, as I obviously made many errors in my last 2(well 3) attempts at keeping fish. So I hope I can finally get things right. I have been literally fighting with this tank for close to a year now.!

Also, when I do (hopefully) get the water right, how often should I clean the tank, vacuume the rocks, do partials etc. And also, do I need to add the PH buffer in the water every time I do water changes??


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## Hansolo (Sep 10, 2010)

It sounds like your tank still isn't cycled fully. I believe that filter has 2 cartridges, be sure to only change 1 at a time. Change 1 instead of both when needed then change the other like a week later. Be sure to do small water changes on a regular basis rather than large ones over a longer period of time. I would have told you to forget the stability and change 5g every day or other day. Those chemicals are covering the problem not fixing it. The ph buffer is understandable. When I cycle a tank I buy these little gauges that suction on the tank and will always give you reading at a glance, they have always been pretty accurate when I check them with my API kit. You can also by these little sacks designed for filter media and really beef a hang on back filter right up. There just small mesh sacks with a drawstring. You can put the ceramic rings in them and put them in your filter behind your cartridge. This can make a big difference in a filters performance. I wouldn't use anything else for controlling ammonia chemical wise. Also no zeolite or you will never get it cycled. 
I don't understand your feeding schedule but once a day whether its morning noon or night. Just one tank time per 24 hour period. Your fish wont starve I promise. It sounds like they are getting fed every night along with every other day. After your ammonia flattens out then you can start gradually feeding 2-3 times a day. Be patient on getting any more fish. Wait till your cycled and have your feeding schedule how you want it, then by another fish or two. Then wait a month or so for your tank to balance out. You can't rush these things. Personally I change about 25% of my water once a week. In my few tanks with gravel it gets vacuumed at this time as well. I haven't ever used the ph buffer and I recommend you try and get away from it as well if you can. You wrote your water was very soft so I would that substrate that has the shells or whatever in it. That will naturally raise your ph and be alot more stable. You also could use some natural rocks for decorations and they will naturally raise and hold ph. I know not all rocks will so you will have to research what kind to use if you give that method a try. I use driftwood and peat in my filter to lower my ph. I believe if it can be done naturally or without chemicals its going to be healthier. I hope this helps. Best of luck to you.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

I completely agree with everything Hansolo said.
(Never thought I'd use that sentence in my life LOL)
"These are not the Plecos you seek"
Ok, that was fun, back to topic hehe.

here are the media bags and filter media he was referring to. there are more expensive bags also, but I've done fine with the 3x4 F&S brand for most HoBs. You will find a lot of other media there. If it fits in the bag, you can put it in your HoB. I personally make my own cartridges by using the blue\white sponge you see on that page and using an empty clamshell that you can find on that site also. I then add purigen, ceramic and a scotchbrite heavy duty scrub pad with a lil filter wool. My water stays crystal clear and the levels are always 0\0\5-15ish. Is it a lil overboard? perhaps, but I don't have issues anymore either hehe. I also change about 25% water every week. But, I do 50% for the puffers, they are a big bioload.
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.c.../c/3578/4136?s=lh&count=24&start=1&page_num=1

It can take up to 6 months for your tank to fully cycle. If you need a jumpstart, I would recommend trying Dr Tims or Safe Start. All the others have dead bacteria which feed the cycle, but does not contain any viable bacteria. If you do choose to use any bio-lift, make sure you have fish present to create ammonia or the bacteria will starve. Some have also done the "fishless cycle" by adding pure ammonia and adding fish after it's done and after changing at least 90% of the water. I have not ever used that method. I am old school and usually just put a couple danios or something that is very hardy in the tank and let nature do it's thing. It only takes a couple weeks usually.
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.c.../c/3578/3975?s=lh&count=24&start=1&page_num=1



I am a strong advocate for using Prime also. It neutralizes the bad stuff, but leaves it for the bacteria to eat, thus furthering the nitrogen cycle even faster.


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## AnimalHouse35 (Jul 19, 2011)

I can't answer all of your questions but I can answer a few!

I have 2 mollies and twice a day I give them like 2 medium flakes. It keeps the water clean and mine are doing just fine. Fish really don't need much food to survive! But yes, mine are always in the top left corner when they see me walk in since that's where I usually feed them! It's adorable!

Cory cats are schooling fish and usually like to be in groups from 4 to 6 corys from what I've read. I don't know how many fish you have/size of your tank so I I don't know if that's too many!

What type of cory where you planning on getting? There are alot of types and all have different needs.

Sorry that's all I could help! Good luck!


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

I think theirs been a bit of confusion...first on the feeding thing, I did word this badly. I am feeding every other day. On the day I feed, I only feed once a day at night, and very small amounts at. Time. 

I'm no longer using the buffer to raise the PH. I stopped that once I got my PH up. I have one more day( tomorrow the last day) of the stability. It's not hurting anything, but not really sure if it's doing any good anyway.

To update...Saturday I went and bought prime, ammo lock and stress zyme. Before anyone freaks I have yet to use any of them, and defiantly if I do ever use them, it will not be at once! I thought they would be good to have handy, but I've been reading on here a good bit, and it goes both ways. Some people like it, some people hate it. I read a lot of good things on prime but I, almost afraid to use it because I'm Afraid to overdose! Its only 1ml per 50 gallons! Math is a very weak point with me. So I figured I'll wait and ask here, that its better to add nothing, than to just guess and add and overdose.

I THINK I am on the right track though. I agree, I know my tank isn't cycles yet, yesterday I did a small water change. Like 15%. I quick vacuumed the gravel to. 

As of today my test results read 1.0ppm of ammonia( so that went down!) but now my nitrites sky rockets into 5.0ppm. I think this is a normal process, but is there anything more I should do besides wait it out? My nitrates are between 10-20ppm. The color on the chart looks pretty much the same for each of the levels, so hard to tell.

I have added stress coat the past 3 days, should I stop this? I'm just hoping it will help the fish deal with the stress of the cycle better...

I'm not sure where I wrote that my water was soft. We have hard water, though when I added the buffer to correct the PH the water did get softer, but not very soft. 

Animal house- I'm not sure what kind of corys yet. The pet store has a couple of different kinds, but have not payed to much attention yet since it will be a while before I get any. I'm not getting any more fish until the tanks for sure cycled.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> I have one more day( tomorrow the last day) of the stability. It's not hurting anything, but not really sure if it's doing any good anyway.


Are you referring to seachem stability in the blue bottle?
The only problem I ever had with it was foam on the water surface. But it went away after a water change. It does work pretty good with it's cousin Prime. But, if you add any other conditioners, it could create a white\yellow foam. Not usually deadly, but be sure to skim it off. My personal opinion would be to stop using the stability once you have run out. If you really want to jumpstart your cycle, ask a friend with a well established & healthy tank if you can get some filter media from his filter. Transport the media in his tank water to your house. Put it in your filter and you will be almost instantly cycled. Seriously, it works. If you live within an hour of me, I'll be happy to give you some of mine. My water is crstal clear and the levels stay at 0\0\5-15ish. If you don't have any friends nearby, ask your LFS. Most of them will be glad to give you some, if not only charge only a lil bit. The last resort would be to add Dr Tim's, Tetra Start Smart or Bio-Spira (if refrigerated). I could be wrong and I encourage someone to correct me if I am. But, last I knew Bio-Spira only contained live bacteria if it was refrigerated. Perhaps they have changed the formula or packaging?


> I read a lot of good things on prime but I, almost afraid to use it because I'm Afraid to overdose! Its only 1ml per 50 gallons!


You can't really overdose on it. It neutralizes ammonia nitrates and nitrites. I_t also boosts the slime coat, etc etc. It's really te only conditioner you should need IMO. _That means that the deadly chemicals are molecularly bonded and can no longer harm the fish. But, the bacteria can still feed on it. Prime rocks. As for dosage ... what size bottle did you buy? If it's the 250ml or bigger bottle, 1 cap = 50 gallons. if it's the 100ml or smaller, it's 2 drops per gallon. Also, every thread in the cap = about 1 ml. Here's some more info on Prime if you want, click on more info for more instructions:
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4057 


> As of today my test results read 1.0ppm of ammonia( so that went down!) but now my nitrites sky rockets into 5.0ppm. I think this is a normal process, but is there anything more I should do besides wait it out? My nitrates are between 10-20ppm. The color on the chart looks pretty much the same for each of the levels, so hard to tell.


Holy Cow! Those were some very very high levels! Gad to see them going down. Still high though.
You need to do an emergency dose of Prime ASAP! that is 5x normal dose.
so, if you have a 50g tank, you want to add 5 capfulls or 10 drops per gallon. If you're not sure, just multiply your tank size (in gallons) times 10. That will tell you how many ml you need to add. Normally it'd be x10. so, 10g = 20 drops or 1 thread line on the cap. 50g would be 100 drops or 1 capful. But, for emergency dosage, which I would say is the case here ... 10g would be 100 drops or 1 capful. 50g would be 500 drops or 5 capfuls.
If you don't feel safe doing the math, just tell me the size of your tank (in gallon), the size of your prime bottle (???ml) and I'll happily tell you how much to dose and the easiest way to measure it.
A spike is considered .5 IMHO. I freak when I see .25 ammonia or nitrites. I don't worry about nitrates unless it goes past 40. It's good to have some nitrates. I keep Moss balls in my tanks to keep the levels down. Mine rarely goes above 10.
I agree about those color charts ... is think pink or salmon? blue-green or teal? do my fish live or die? ugh! There are electronic testers out there that give a digital readout. But, they tend to be a bit too expensive for the casual hobbyist.


> I have added stress coat the past 3 days, should I stop this? I'm just hoping it will help the fish deal with the stress of the cycle better...


 you really only need to add strees coat with a water change. Too much stress coat and you can actually make the carbon non effective. But, it shouldn't hurt the fish directly. The best way to relax the fish is usally a lil salt and higher temp assuming you have tropical fish. I didn't catch what type of tank you are keeping, fw or sw? tropical? if sw, i'd just increase the temp a bit. not past 82-84. 86 would be the max and only for tropicals.


> I'm not sure where I wrote that my water was soft. We have hard water, though when I added the buffer to correct the PH the water did get softer, but not very soft. [\quote]I have hard water also. Most fish won't really care that much. IMHO it's best to let your fish get used to your local conditions. I have very hard water and a PH of 8.6 out of the tap. I only add prime and crushed coral to my water. I do add a lil baking soda once a month also. The main thing is not to let the Ph drop too low. That's when it becomes acidic and kills off the fish pretty quickly. If you have snails, they usually die around 6.5, they are a good living PH monitor
> 
> 
> > Animal house- I'm not sure what kind of corys yet. The pet store has a couple of different kinds, but have not payed to much attention yet since it will be a while before I get any. I'm not getting any more fish until the tanks for sure cycled.
> ...


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

I can't type much right now since I'm on my phone on my lunch hour at work. So I'll type more details later.

All the tank specs were In my original post. Along with the kinds of fish I have. I have a 26 gallon tank. I would appreciate if you tell me how much prime to add( in MLs preferred, it will be hard to measure drops. I'll have to search for a dropper) and I'll add it ad soon as I can when I get home. I know it's high levels, it shot up in literally 2 days, but from what I've read on here and countless books, that's expected when cycling a tank. The trick is to get the fish through it..

More later. Hope I can get a reply on how much prime to use soon so I can add it ASAP.Also, I'm going to go buy some salt today, will that be ok to use at same time with the prime?? And should I just stop the stabilty?( today would be last day) also I'm pretty sure the prime is the 250ml bottle.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

Ok...water test update! Ammonia is now 0.50ppm! =) so that went down more! Nitrites are still sky hi though at 5.0ppm. The coloring actually doesn't even match any of the colors on the chart though...I'm not taking that as a good sign...I did a test strip test to compare and that to, shows very high nitrites. Nitrates are between 20-40ppm now.=/ when I put the tube against the paper to compare, it looks more at the 40ppm color, but when I have the tube away it looks more like 20ppm. I wish these test were easier to compare. Either way, it is defiantly darker than yesterday so it got higher.

I just added some salt...still waiting on advice on how much prime ton add and is tha safe t use at the same time as using the salt...?

Edit: HUGE surprise! While I was watching the fish, I saw something move, I wasn't sure what it was, it was at the bottom in the back of the tank...well to my surprise when I looked closer it is a baby Molly!! It's so cute! I managed to catch it and put him in one of those nets that hang inside the tank. I crushed up a teeny bit of flakes and out it in there..havnt seen him eat, so I'll guess we will see he makes it! I know mollies breed easy, but sure wasn't expecting it this soon since the female Molly did not even look that big and I have only had them for 3 1/2 weeks. Hha


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## jlpropst00 (Jun 12, 2011)

I award this thread the "one freakin' long thread" award.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

jlpropst00 said:


> I award this thread the "one freakin' long thread" award.


Lol sorry, I'm just trying to do my best to do things right this time around and I ask and have a lot of questions!


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Prime is safe with salt.
I didn't see your tank stats before.

So, you have a 26g tank...
Your normal dose of Prime will be 2.6ml. If you have the small 100ml bottle of prime, you will need to add 52 drops of Prime. If you have the 250ml bottle of Prime or larger, you only need about half a capfull.
But, I would recommend you do an emergency dose of prime. That would be 5x the regular dose, so 260 drops or 2 1\2 capfuls. This is not the normal dose, just a one time dosage. You should only add this much if your levels are way out of whack.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

CyberBob said:


> Prime is safe with salt.
> I didn't see your tank stats before.
> 
> So, you have a 26g tank...
> ...


Crap! I JUST added the stability again, I didn't think I was going to get the reply about the prme tonight. So the tank has had salt and the stability( wont be doing anymore, this was last day) today. Would adding prime toda be to much in the Tank at once? Or should I wait and how long?


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> Crap! I JUST added the stability again, I didn't think I was going to get the reply about the prme tonight. So the tank has had salt and the stability( wont be doing anymore, this was last day) today. Would adding prime toda be to much in the Tank at once? Or should I wait and how long?


prime and stability are actually made to be used together. that's why they look so much alike  I personally don't use stability anymore, but only because it was causing a foam in my tanks.

I feel like I should have mentioned how much salt to add... dare I ask?


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

CyberBob said:


> prime and stability are actually made to be used together. that's why they look so much alike  I personally don't use stability anymore, but only because it was causing a foam in my tanks.
> 
> I feel like I should have mentioned how much salt to add... dare I ask?


Thanks for replying quick because I need to bed! Gnna regret this in morning when I wake up for work! Lol

Ok thts good, so. Can go ahead and add the prime. On the salt I read the instructions on the bag it was 2 tb per 10 galloms so I added 2 1/2 tablespoons.

So to double check, right now for the emergency dose, I add 2 1/2 capfulls( equals to 10.5 ml? On bottle it says a capful is approx 5ml)


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> Thanks for replying quick because I need to bed! Gnna regret this in morning when I wake up for work! Lol
> 
> Ok thts good, so. Can go ahead and add the prime. On the salt I read the instructions on the bag it was 2 tb per 10 galloms so I added 2 1/2 tablespoons.
> 
> So to double check, right now for the emergency dose, I add 2 1/2 capfulls( equals to 10.5 ml? On bottle it says a capful is approx 5ml)


i would usually add 1tb per gallon. But, he is sick, so a lil extra won't hurt  Keep in mind though, salt never comes out of water. It doesn't evaporate. So, once you add salt, it's there. The only way to get it out if with huge water changes. Basically, I'm saying not to add more salt for a while hehe.

yes, 2 1\2 caps is perfect for emergency dose.
normal dosage with water changes will be 1\2 cap.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

CyberBob said:


> i would usually add 1tb per gallon. But, he is sick, so a lil extra won't hurt  Keep in mind though, salt never comes out of water. It doesn't evaporate. So, once you add salt, it's there. The only way to get it out if with huge water changes. Basically, I'm saying not to add more salt for a while hehe.
> 
> yes, 2 1\2 caps is perfect for emergency dose.
> normal dosage with water changes will be 1\2 cap.


Ok. Bit confused.( not unusual for me lol)I didn't add a tablespoon PER each gallon. I was a tablespoon per 10 gallons. 26 gallon tank..so I added 2 1/2 tablespoons. Hope I didn't over due it i just followed the instructions of the bag, I won't add anymore though!

Thanks soo much again for the help! Il'm going add that prime and hit the sack! I'll update tomorrow!


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> Thanks for replying quick because I need to bed! Gnna regret this in morning when I wake up for work! Lol
> 
> Ok thts good, so. Can go ahead and add the prime. On the salt I read the instructions on the bag it was 2 tb per 10 galloms so I added 2 1/2 tablespoons.
> 
> So to double check, right now for the emergency dose, I add 2 1/2 capfulls( equals to 10.5 ml? On bottle it says a capful is approx 5ml)


I usually only add 1 tb per 10g. But, a lil extra wont hurt when healing. Just remember that you can always add more salt, but it's very very hard to take it away. It doesn't evaporate with the water. Basicaly, I'm saying not to add anymore salt for a while hehe. Also, I need to ask this ... you said "bag" of salt ... does it say marine salt on the bag? Usually for freshwater you only want to use aquarium salt. Unless you plan to move this up to brackish.

yes, emergency dose is 2 1\2 caps.
normal dose with water change will be 1\2 cap.
1 cap = 5ml, so half of that would be 2.5ml


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

2.5 capfuls is 12.5 mL. I suggest getting a 1 mL pipette for dispensing Prime. The stuff is cheap per dose, but only if you can measure it accurately. Salt is supposed to protect from nitrite, the "emergency" dose of Prime is supposed to protect from ammonia and nitrite. Its a good safety measure for cycling with fish. That you have measurable ammonia is bothersome at 5 months. Why isn't this tank cycled? You should expect spikes of a mini-cycle when you add new fish, but ammonia should go away in couple days. Is the tank overfed, under-filtered or full of decaying stuff (dead fish, algae, plants, uneaten food, poop in the substrate...)? Ignore that 'never change water during cycling' myth. High enough ammonia or nitrite can kill off your filter bacteria and keep it from ever cycling. You don't want to change so much water that ammonia is always 0 and the bacteria starve, but you do want to keep levels down. 

Its weird that your pH wanted to stay down. Usually, pH wants to stay up because of buffers naturally found in hard, alkaline water. But occasionally you find hard, acid water. But please verify you tap water pH, if the tank is way off, something is strange.

To answer your question, you do need to keep using pH modifiers with every water change forever, or your pH will go back. If you change 5 gallons of water, dose for 5 gallons. However, you don't need to add it to evaporation water replacement, just dechlor. Once you get this thing cycled, you may want to reduce additions and let pH go back gradually.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> Ok. Bit confused.( not unusual for me lol)I didn't add a tablespoon PER each gallon. I was a tablespoon per 10 gallons. 26 gallon tank..so I added 2 1/2 tablespoons. Hope I didn't over due it i just followed the instructions of the bag, I won't add anymore though!
> 
> Thanks soo much again for the help! Il'm going add that prime and hit the sack! I'll update tomorrow!


doh! typos. 1tb per 10g is right  You did just the right amount 
the reason you see two posts is because I usually have this in "hybrid" display on the posts are showing up there, but they show up under "linear" apparently.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

emc7 said:


> 2.5 capfuls is 12.5 mL. I suggest getting a 1 mL pipette for dispensing Prime. The stuff is cheap per dose, but only if you can measure it accurately. Salt is supposed to protect from nitrite, the "emergency" dose of Prime is supposed to protect from ammonia and nitrite. Its a good safety measure for cycling with fish. That you have measurable ammonia is bothersome at 5 months. Why isn't this tank cycled? You should expect spikes of a mini-cycle when you add new fish, but ammonia should go away in couple days. Is the tank overfed, under-filtered or full of decaying stuff (dead fish, algae, plants, uneaten food, poop in the substrate...)? Ignore that 'never change water during cycling' myth. High enough ammonia or nitrite can kill off your filter bacteria and keep it from ever cycling. You don't want to change so much water that ammonia is always 0 and the bacteria starve, but you do want to keep levels down.
> 
> Its weird that your pH wanted to stay down. Usually, pH wants to stay up because of buffers naturally found in hard, alkaline water. But occasionally you find hard, acid water. But please verify you tap water pH, if the tank is way off, something is strange.
> 
> To answer your question, you do need to keep using pH modifiers with every water change forever, or your pH will go back. If you change 5 gallons of water, dose for 5 gallons. However, you don't need to add it to evaporation water replacement, just dechlor. Once you get this thing cycled, you may want to reduce additions and let pH go back gradually.


I agree about the pipette. They are very cheap also. Something like this:
http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8940

I've been doing this so long that I just count the threads of the cap hehe. 1 thread = 1ml 

I usually just let me fish swim in whatever PH my tap is at. within reason of course. My tap is 8.6. when I do a water change, it mixes with the existing water and raises the PH a bit. I keep crushed coral to help maintain the level at about 8.0. My fish are happy and healthy. IME, Fish can live in just about any PH level if they are slowly acclimated to it. Of course, if my tap PH was too far away from 7.0, I'd have to use a PH buffer. The last house I had used well water and I always needed a buffer there. My PH was about 5.2 from the well hehe.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

"Why isn't this tank cycled? You should expect spikes of a mini-cycle when you add new fish, but ammonia should go away in couple days. Is the tank overfed, under-filtered or full of decaying stuff (dead fish, algae, plants, uneaten food, poop in the substrate...)? Ignore that 'never change water during cycling' myth. High enough ammonia or nitrite can kill off your filter bacteria and keep it from ever cycling. You don't want to change so much water that ammonia is always 0 and the bacteria starve, but you do want to keep levels down. "

The tank isnt cycled because the tank has only had fish in it for 3 1/2 weeks. I had that brown knife for a few months before that, but I am not really counting that into the cycling, expecially since I changed both filters at the same time about a week before getting more fish(so about a month ago) I know now to never change both filters at once, and I will clean them the best I can using the water I take out the tank during partials. I used to rinse them in the sink, but I read here that that can kill the bacteria. That could have been one of my big problems my previous two attempts to, the tank never got a chance to cycle because i kept rinsing the filters. I was rinsing once or twice a week. Tank was overstocked and they got dirty quick. 

Also, I only feed tiny amounts every other day. Im being careful with now over feeding, expecially right now with trying to get the tank cycled.

You are saying you WANT a little ammonia in the tank? Everything I have read says ammonia needs to be kept at 0. Along with nitrites and nitrates..

Cyberbob-the aquarium salt isnt instant salt. I know what that is, we used to have a SW tank years ago. I say that because the salt I bought just came in a little bag, its from jungle products and it does say on the bag for tropical and freshwater fish.Glad to know I didnt overdue it on the salt! Im bad with typos, expecially since 99% of the time Im typing on my ipad, and its not as easy to catch mistakes on their. 

I will give a water test update tonight. Another question, will adding these products have any effect on the accuracy of the testing kits?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

No ammonia is best for fish. But no ammonia means no cycling, so this is the origin of the ''Never change water during cycling" advice. A tank with a trace amount of ammonia like 0.25 may cycle faster than a tank with none measurable. So "detoxifying' ammonia with a product like Prime should allow both the cycle and the fish to survive. Salt won't have any affect on testing. Prime may. There are reports that some test kits show 'detoxified' ammonia as ammonia, allowing you to watch the cycle. But there are also reportedly some test kits will show 0 ammonia after you add Prime even though it is supposed 'available' to filter bacteria. Its not that the accuracy is affected, its a matter of what the kits measure.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

Water test update...not a whole lot of change.

Ammonia- 0.25( though at angles it still looks like .50) 
Nitrites-sky high, at least 5.0ppm...color doesn't even really match any of the colors on the chart still.
Nitrates- still between 20-40 ppm. Again...hard to tell.

The baby is still alive and all the fish are still doing fine. I just pray these nitrites and nitrates will go down soon and that the ammonia will continue to go down! Anything else I should do?


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

CyberBob said:


> doh! typos. 1tb per 10g is right  You did just the right amount
> the reason you see two posts is because I usually have this in "hybrid" display on the posts are showing up there, but they show up under "linear" apparently.


LOL! I just now caught myself! I just read back and I did accidentally say 2tb per 10 gallons. I meant 1 tb per 10 gallons! Oops..sorry for the confusion!


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> Water test update...not a whole lot of change.
> 
> Ammonia- 0.25( though at angles it still looks like .50)
> Nitrites-sky high, at least 5.0ppm...color doesn't even really match any of the colors on the chart still.
> ...


if you have added the emergency dosage of prime, those are most likely false readings. Some test kits will still detect the ammonia, etc even after they have been de-toxified. The chemical is still present, but has been detoxified. The bacteria can still eat it though  If the numbers start going up, add a normal dosage of Prime. I keep a chart so I can easily tell if it's a spike or not. Also, be sure to keep up on your regular maintence schedule.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

Ok..do you know about how long it takes until you can get accurate readings on the test again??

I should be doing small partials about once a week right? Or should I go longer of shorter? I did a 15% partial Sunday.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> Ok..do you know about how long it takes until you can get accurate readings on the test again??
> 
> I should be doing small partials about once a week right? Or should I go longer of shorter? I did a 15% partial Sunday.


I'm afraid I don't know for sure how long it will take 
I would suggest a 20% WC every week. So, in your tank that would be about 5g. I ad prime with every WC also. The kit I use is the API Master Test kit (liquid) and it seems to give accurate readings. I always take the reading before I change water and then change the water based on the levels indicated. If it shows 0\0\5ish I only change about 20%, but it shows more, I increase the amount changed. Then add prime to the new water. Seems to work for me.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

In use the API master test kit as well. 

Tested the water again and no change at all from yesterday. I did a test strip as well to compare, it also says the nitrites are still way high, but it is showing lower nitrates than my liquid test does. According to then strip, it is still showing in the safe zone. Since the prime can affect the results...not sure what to really think...

I will do another partial on Sunday then, and continue to do them once a week. Is is once a week for ever, or just until then tank is cycled?


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> In use the API master test kit as well.
> 
> Tested the water again and no change at all from yesterday. I did a test strip as well to compare, it also says the nitrites are still way high, but it is showing lower nitrates than my liquid test does. According to then strip, it is still showing in the safe zone. Since the prime can affect the results...not sure what to really think...
> 
> I will do another partial on Sunday then, and continue to do them once a week. Is is once a week for ever, or just until then tank is cycled?


Most folks do weekly water changes and weekly tests.
Once the tank is completely cycled (usually takes 6 months or more), you CAN ease up a bit if needed. But, only after monitoring the levels for a while. I would still highly suggest you at least test the water ever week so you know if you need a WC.
But if the levels are low, you can skip that week. Note that this is only after the tank is cycled and stable. Always test weekly just to be safe.
It is really going to depend on how you feed and how stocked your tank is. When I kept my oscar, he only ate twice a week and he was the only fish in the 120g tank. So, I could go a month without changing his water usually. Surprisingly, he wasn't messy at all. He ate every last bite of the fish 
I just had to vacuum out his poop and it kept the water clean. Yes, oscars have big poop hehe.


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## Hansolo (Sep 10, 2010)

Be patient on getting the tank fully cycled. It can tank several months. In short I would test my water once a week right before I did a water change. Stress coat once a week. The only chemical I would use is tap water conditioner. You are trying to speed up/control something that can't be done. Just let nature run its course. As long as your fish are surviving just roll with it.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Hansolo said:


> Be patient on getting the tank fully cycled. It can tank several months. In short I would test my water once a week right before I did a water change. Stress coat once a week. The only chemical I would use is tap water conditioner. You are trying to speed up/control something that can't be done. Just let nature run its course. As long as your fish are surviving just roll with it.


I agree with everything he said ... except for the stress coat.
I think you should only add stress coat when handling the fish or netting them.
If you use Prime as your tap water conditioner, you are already promoting their slime coat  Just FYI
Tip: I use the cheap API dechlorinator on all my water before I add it to my tank. You don't wanna kill all the good bacteria ya know  But, then I add Prime for the whole tank rather then just the new water. Less waste IME and the API bottle lasts a loooong time and only costs about $3.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

Havnt tested yet today( will later this evening) but yesterday was still no change at all.

Another question...when I do the once a week partials, should I vacuum the gravel each time? Or just take out the water. I vacuumed the gravel last Sunday. And Also, I add 1/2 a capful of prime each time I do a partial? I havnt put anything in the tank since I added that emergency dose of the prime. 

All the fish still doing well, and that baby is still alive! =)


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

I vacuum every week. It's the main reason I change the water hehe.
Just an FYI though, if you have a biowheel on your filter, you don't even need gravel. Gravel is mainly for decoration anyways. But, if you skip the gravel, your water will actually be easier to maintain. Yes, 1\2 cap of Pime will treat 25g. Sometimes I only vacuum the gravel and add Prime. Often times that is all it needs. Prime neutralizes the bad stuff and if I don't have an overstocked tank, there isn;t much poop to clean up hehe. Iwould still recommend doing water changes more often for a while though, at least until your water remains clear and stable. But, I wouldn't skip any water changes until it's been about 6 months or so. G'Luck 

Today's my mainteneance day also. Now I just have to try and motivate myself to haul 5g buckets for an hour or so hehe.


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't have a biowheel...I have the carbon filter cartridges. I defiantly wouldn't like the look without gravel! Lol

Thanks sooo much for all the help. I will do my water change tomorrow, and continue to do the weekly water changes for a good while and add the prime on each water change. 

I think Im actually out of questions!( at least for the next hour lol!) who thought that was possible! Haha


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Starlight said:


> I don't have a biowheel...I have the carbon filter cartridges. I defiantly wouldn't like the look without gravel! Lol
> 
> Thanks sooo much for all the help. I will do my water change tomorrow, and continue to do the weekly water changes for a good while and add the prime on each water change.
> 
> I think Im actually out of questions!( at least for the next hour lol!) who thought that was possible! Haha


LOL no problem. As far as the gravel. I think it looks weird also. But, unless I have live plants, I only put about 1\4" - 1\2" of gravel. Soooo much easier to clean. With plants, usually 1 1\2" - 2"


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## Starlight (Apr 20, 2011)

Update!

I think my cycle is almost done! Bur strange how it happened. The day before yesterday my nitrites were still sky high. Nitrates had also gone way up reaching 80ppm. My ammonia stayed at 0.25ppm. It stayed at these levels for nearly a week, pretty much ever since I last updated this. Only thing that had changed since I last updated was the nitrates going even higher.

Well yesterday I tested again and surprise! I actually redid the test because I thought I did the test wrong! Lol As of today and yesterday my levels are..

Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrates: between 10-20ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm!!

So once I get the ammonia down to 0 it should be able to get some more fish Right? Seems like the ammonia should be 0 since the nitrites peaked and went down huh? That's what I'm confused about. 

I plan on getting 2 dwarf gouramis, an algae eater and 2 Cory cats maybe. I know Cory cats do better in larger groups, but I don't want to overstock tank. Obviously I wont be adding these all at once. I'll get 2-3 at a time when I do start getting them. But would 2 dwarf gouramis, 1 algae eater and let's say 4 Cory cats be to much? ( right now if forgotten, I have 2 swordtails, 2 creamsicle mollies and 6 neon tetras)

I have Been doing my weekly partials taking 15-20% of water out. Adding the 1/2 capful of prime each time. I also add a little stress coat to kill the chlorine and stuff before I add the water to the tank. I add the prime in after all the waters back. I have to make a couple of trips to refill tank after and I feel safer adding stuff to kill the chlorine and stuff before adding it to the tank. So stress coat and prime are the only things I put in the tank every week.

All the fish are doing great, baby getting a little bigger! They sure grow slow! Lol


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## Hansolo (Sep 10, 2010)

I would only get 2 fish at a time at least a week apart. Get the corys last. Your tank should be super established before adding them. Most will say 6 months before getting corys. Im glad your tank finally cycled. Traces of ammonia are normal do to fish producing more waste from day to day. Same with feeding. Im sure the amount of food given/eaten varies enuff to produce small amounts of ammonia that will show up when tested. Mini spikes


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