# Need some advice on a new 20gal FW



## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

I'm currently cleaning out my tank to prep for a whole new setup, fully planted and stocked. I have a 65W 10k bulb, heater, Flourite substrate, and some nice driftwood.

I want to get a pair of blue rams as centerpiece fish, but I'm not sure if this is wise or not. What plants and other fish would go well with them?


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2006)

Do you already know that you have to cycle the tank? Is it just a regular 20g a 20g high or a 20g long?


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

Yes I know I have to cycle, I just like planning ahead. ^_^ It's a regular 20gal. I also have an Aquaclear filter (can't remember if it's the 150 or 200).


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2006)

Ok, if your going for rams as the centerpiece fish you could get 6 to 8 black widow tetras and 6 cory catfish of your choice.


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## aquachick (May 24, 2006)

Or some cherry barbs, just about any kind of tetra, kuhli loaches instead of cory cats... the possibilities are almost endless....
What kind fo fish are you interested in?


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Go for some tiger barbs!!


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

I like the way Harlequin Rasboras and Gouramis look, but have no idea how they act. I would like to put some shrimp in there, the kind that fan out and catch algae from the water. I need a bottom-dweller/algae cleaner, but I don't think my tank is big enough for corys or loaches (maybe some ghost shrimp?). Cherry barbs and tetras are a little on the uninteresting side to me (no offense! ). Threadfin rainbows would be pretty nice too.


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## cucci67 (Aug 3, 2005)

Well, the rams are a good choice, pretty much any plant suited for yout ank will work. Harlies will go fine in there. Also, for algae eaters, if the tank is pretty well planted then 3 ottos should be fine in there. If not, then I wouldn't go with less than 3. For bottom dwellers, shrimp are nice, but many times they become food for rams. A nice school of panda cories (4-5) will go nice in there. Dwarf gourami will work too. It's up to you, let us know what you want.


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## Guest (Jun 8, 2006)

A 20g is plenty big for corys, you could even put 3 in a 5g if its well filtered and heated. But I wouldn't get tiger barbs because the mimimum size tank they can be in is a 30g because they are so active.


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## darkfalz (May 7, 2006)

If you're going for tiger barbs then get adult ones, juveniles can be hard to take care of. I know :'(


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## vinimack720 (Apr 20, 2006)

the juveniles can be hard to raise, but their the most fun to watch when their young. i just got some that are under an inch long and they are extreemly active. they constantly chase each other around and dart through the plants, very playfull and very interesting


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

OK, I'm considering this: pair of blue rams, 4 cories (will peppered or swartz's work?), and I guess 7(?) harlequins (I'd go with gouramis, but would rather have the blue rams stand out more against the the orange and black rasboras). Should I consider anything else?

Also, I finally cleaned out the tank, put in the Flourite and filled the tank. I was only able to get 16 gallons in there, so would this have to adjust my numbers at all? It's also really REALLY cloudy in there from the Flourite; almost muddy. I haven't run the filter yet hoping that some of it will settle first. Is this a good idea or should I just get the filter going now?


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## craftyflalady (Jan 25, 2006)

_If you rinsed your flourite, it will clear up pretty fast. Me personally, I would go with the thread fin rainbows instead of the rasboras or gourami's. The thready fins are truely awesome fish! 

I have a 55 gal "Ram tank". With several pairs of Blue Rams and Bolivian Rams. I now have Danios and Rasbora's in the upper levels, and will be removing them and putting my Thread Fins in there. I think it will be a match made in Heaven! 

As far as 16 gal to 20 gals...all tanks displace some water once you start putting stuff in them. No worries. If you do start up your filter, you might wanna use the Polyfil in your filter for a few days to help remove any cloudyness. You can get it a walmart in the craft department for 2 bucks a large bag. One of the best water polishers I have found! Just remove the media that comes with the filter and add it instead. Cheap enough you can remove and add more every day until the water is clear. 

Hope that helped you some 
Kathy _


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

craftyflalady said:


> _...If you do start up your filter, you might wanna use the Polyfil in your filter for a few days to help remove any cloudyness. You can get it a walmart in the craft department for 2 bucks a large bag. One of the best water polishers I have found! Just remove the media that comes with the filter and add it instead. Cheap enough you can remove and add more every day until the water is clear..._


That's a great idea, I'll pick some up today.  How many threadfins would I be able to go with?


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## craftyflalady (Jan 25, 2006)

_In a 20 gal, I think you could easily go with 4 to 6 Thread Fins. They stay fairly small themselfs. I don't think you would dissappointed with them. 

Good Luck! _


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

I think I need something denser than polyfill. This tank is still really cloudy.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

Trust me, once you leave your tank to run for a while, the cloudyness will clear. Don't wait for it to settle, it never will without the filter going.

As far as stocking goes, looks like you're after a peaceful, colorful setup. Your heading in the right direction, but don't go with the suggestions for barbs and large tetras. The only gouramis really suited to your tank are the dwarf, and the honey. They're both quite attractive too so you're not missing out on their larger cousins.
Rams, small tetras e.g. neons, glowlights, black neons are all good candidates. Good luck!


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

By the way, threadfins are one of my favourite fish, and they're not as fragile as they look. Good Luck!


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Cichlid Man said:


> Trust me, once you leave your tank to run for a while, the cloudyness will clear. Don't wait for it to settle, it never will without the filter going.
> 
> As far as stocking goes, looks like you're after a peaceful, colorful setup. Your heading in the right direction, but don't go with the suggestions for barbs and large tetras. The only gouramis really suited to your tank are the dwarf, and the honey. They're both quite attractive too so you're not missing out on their larger cousins.
> Rams, small tetras e.g. neons, glowlights, black neons are all good candidates. Good luck!


I got 2 Dwarf and 2 blue gouramis in my 20 gal...the blue gourami dont seem to be getting along, i think im gonna have to either give em away or fill a new tank for em


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2006)

I had that same problem when I had blue gouramis, I had 2 of them and the bigger one harrassed the smaller one, I believe you need at least 4 of them so they can spread the aggression. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

I don't think I'll be going with gouramis, as they'd probably take away from the rams' spotlight. As long as I find a pair of rams I should be good.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

Yep, good choice.

Blue gourami males shouldn't really be kept together in small tanks. A male and a few females is best. Or just one is recommended.


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## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

I have a pair of blue rams in my tank and their only tankmates are 3 celebes rainbows so far. They are gorgeous though, and they even play together. I intend to add a small school of panda cories, and a few emperor tetras too.

This is in a 30 gallon though, so I don't want to give you advice that would lead you to be overstocked.


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

The tank cleared up significantly, but there's a fine layer of dust on the substrate, so I started cleaning it and that tank was instantly cloudy again. I siphoned as much of the dust out of the rocks as I could and then did a 50% water change. It is starting to clear up a lot faster, and I keep changing the poly stuff every day. Progress appears slow but certain!


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Cichlid Man said:


> Yep, good choice.
> 
> Blue gourami males shouldn't really be kept together in small tanks. A male and a few females is best. Or just one is recommended.


Yeah males tend to be aggressive to eachother, but the thing is i got 2 females that dont stop fighting........at least i think i do.........


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

Well here's an update... The tank finally cleared after lots of siphoning of the substrate and water changes. I have some plants in there but not enough yet, as a few of the leaves are showing signs of algae growth. I decided to start with 8 harlequin rasboras (very nice coloration on these, too), and I have a young goby in there as well. 

I was somewhat disappointed in the local selection of blue rams; they're just not as colorful as I had hoped. Also, I did find a couple threadfins (about 3 or 4), but they didn't show off their fins at all and were constantly hiding. So I've been rethinking the plan.

I still have plenty of plants to get, I'm just planning as I go with that. I decided against the corys as I think they're just too active for a 20 gallon, and would outcompete the goby for food. So I'm now planning on getting 3 otos, and potentially 4 blue tetras if I can find those.

Are blue tetras naturally blue or are they injected? Would they mix well with the rasboras?


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

I would have to imagine they are dyed. If this is the case, DONT GET THEM. Anyway, sounds pretty good with the harlies and the gobies. And blue rams arent really that blue. Most everywhere they are gold with a few blue dots on the side of females. Its probably not your "local selection" unless they are REALLY uncolorful. they usually look like this...http://www.petsmart.com/media/ps/images/articles/details/Fish/Breed/blueramCich_39f87.jpg

Also, there are many different subspecies of rams, such as gold rams and german golds. Look at all of your local lfs' and lps' and find some colorful ones. I would buy the male and female from different places if your going to breed.


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## book_em_danio (Jun 12, 2006)

There is 20 long (30x12x12) and 20 high (24x12x16). There is no such thing as "regular". A 20 long is great for Danios. Long finned Blue Danios Danio Kerri are my current favorite and I breed them as well as Giant Danios and short finned Pearl Danios. A 20 high is a bit of a stretch for any Danio. Giant Danios would be cramped, even in a 29.
I will not get into what to get any further. I will offer this advice, a 20 high has somewhat limited surface area for oxygen exchange. 20 long is much better in that case. In either case, you should not stock more than 20" of petite fish measured mouth to begining of caudal fin. This is especially true of the 20 high. Initially stock it with less than 10" of fish until after it is cycled and the water chemistry is stable.


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## book_em_danio (Jun 12, 2006)

Gourami Swami said:


> I would have to imagine they are dyed. If this is the case, DONT GET THEM. Anyway, sounds pretty good with the harlies and the gobies. And blue rams arent really that blue. Most everywhere they are gold with a few blue dots on the side of females. Its probably not your "local selection" unless they are REALLY uncolorful. they usually look like this...http://www.petsmart.com/media/ps/images/articles/details/Fish/Breed/blueramCich_39f87.jpg
> 
> Also, there are many different subspecies of rams, such as gold rams and german golds. Look at all of your local lfs' and lps' and find some colorful ones. I would buy the male and female from different places if your going to breed.



Blue Tetras, Boehlkea Fredcochui, are not dyed fish. They are wonderful little Tetras! I agree 100% don't buy dyed fish.


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

That's why I was asking, I really didn't want to buy a dyed fish. Would 3 blue tetras mix well with the rasboras, goby and otos?

And the tank is a 20 gallon high. I learned a week ago about the names and never changed it on this thread.


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## judya (Jan 23, 2005)

Rams are sensitive to ammonia and nitrites so make sure the tank is WELL CYCLED before you add them. They prefer a lower pH than many fish also.


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

I've decided against the rams. Asking about blue tetras.


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## book_em_danio (Jun 12, 2006)

Rasboras and Tetras get along fine and require similar water conditions.
Rasboras and most Tetras are schooling fish. This means they need 6-8 of their own kind, to thrive and show best colors. I don't know about they Goby.


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

It's a tough call, considering I already have 8 rasboras and it's only a 20 gallon tank. I really like the blue coloring on those tetras when I saw them in person.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Id say with 8 harlies in there already you could add maybe 4-6 of the blue tetras, as long as you dont add any other, bigger fish.


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## book_em_danio (Jun 12, 2006)

CaysE said:


> It's a tough call, considering I already have 8 rasboras and it's only a 20 gallon tank. I really like the blue coloring on those tetras when I saw them in person.


The unknown goby fry is the real problem. Is it going to grow up to be big enough to eat the Rasboras? Possibly. Is it freshwater? Probably. Is it brackish water? Possibly. 
I'm no expert on goby's and will not pretend to be. It is a big question mark for me. I'd almost say put him in a cheap ten gallon for now, let him grow out a little and figure out exactly what he is. If it was my tank, I wouldn't keep him with Rasborras. I'd let things settle with the 8 Rasboras. Sound like you have some Espei Rasboras








as well as Harleqins







and something I don't know...
Let's say they add up to 12" of fish. Another six Blue Tetras would be nice, six would add another 9" of fish, putting you up to 21". Assuming no casualties, that's slightly over. Personally, I'd see no problem with 21" of this type of fish in a well maintained 20 long, but a poorly mainted 20 high would definately incur casualties. 
The tank in my living room is a 25 (almost poor oxygen exchange being 24x12x20, the same surface area as a 20 high, yet 20% taller) and I have 8 Harlequins and 12 Neons in the 25. That's pretty full, but with intense upkeep, I have not had a death in over a year. Generally, if a fish should live 3-5 years, I get that sort of lifespan, even with fragile neons. I would only mix neons and rasboras if the neons outnumbered the rasboras.


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

Thanks for all the help, you are all a great resource to keeping my fish happy. I don't think any of the Rasboras are Espei... the ones I have are 2 that look just like the harlequins pictured above, 3 that have the entire back half of their bodies in black, and 3 that have almost no black markings at all. It's near-impossible to get a good picture of them with my point-and-shoot because they move around so much.

I plan on getting 2-3 otos for algae management, so it sounds like I should just stick with what I have so I don't overstock. I like the blue coloration on the blue tetras and they'd look great in the tank, but I think I just wouldn't have the room.

I imagine with the goby fry being about the same length as the rasboras now, I wouldn't have to segregate him yet. I do recall seeing a show mini-planted tank with a 2.5-inch long goby and 4 1-inch blue tetras at one of the LFSs. I went back a couple days later and all the tetras were still swimming about and the goby was still there. How big can a freshwater goby get?

Also, what's a good food to feed the rasboras and goby? Flake food seems to be fine for the rasboras, but they eat it all before the goby can get any. I dropped in a couple blood worms yesterday that the goby gobbled up, but they seem kinda large for it.


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## book_em_danio (Jun 12, 2006)

CaysE said:


> Thanks for all the help, you are all a great resource to keeping my fish happy. I don't think any of the Rasboras are Espei... the ones I have are 2 that look just like the harlequins pictured above, 3 that have the entire back half of their bodies in black, and 3 that have almost no black markings at all. It's near-impossible to get a good picture of them with my point-and-shoot because they move around so much.
> 
> I plan on getting 2-3 otos for algae management, so it sounds like I should just stick with what I have so I don't overstock. I like the blue coloration on the blue tetras and they'd look great in the tank, but I think I just wouldn't have the room.
> 
> ...


My guess is sooner or later the goby will develop a taste for rasboras. I've read that in Singapore harlequins are eaten for human consumption, because they are raised in such huge quantities, they are maybe a penny there. They are floured and pan fried like a pancake, so perhaps they are tasty. I'm not going to find out personally. I don't trust that goby already.
Some 2" some 10" don't know which one you have...
http://www.elmersaquarium.com/10goby.htm


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## wildtiger (Jun 8, 2005)

I had 3 blue tetras in a 20 gal tank with rams, I realize your no longer interested in the rams, but I'll tell ya this, those blue tetras drove me nuts, they are fairly aggressive for tetras and don't particularly like to be around each other, they are not a schooling fish, although everything you find on the net says they like to get kept in groups. This was not the case with mine, they also spooked easily even in a dark tank that was well planted. They made me nervous just watching them.

This is just my experience with them, I loved the colors (they are not dyed) but was not impressed with the actual fish. Now on the other hand, I love my emperors and head & tail light tetras and think they would be a much better choice. IMHO


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## CaysE (May 21, 2006)

A quick update... the goby is almost definitely a Goo Obo gudgeon, and I want to put together another 20 gallon tank to build a native habitat for him (and possibly a few others). The "blue tetras" that I saw at the fish store actually turned out to be Neon Blue Endler's. I think I will consider them for a future incarnation of my tank.


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2006)

Blue tetras are far too active for a 20g IMO. I have a friend that has some in her 55g and she says a 3 ft tank is minimum. They constantly swim the length of the tank, so I think a 20g would be cramped. So, good thing you didn't go with the blue tetras, since they weren't really tetras.

I've never seen endlers, except in pictures. They are pretty little fish but keep in mind they are livebearers. I'd get all males...so you don't have fry.


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