# GH and KH, are they ok?



## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm having a hard time understanding my GH and KH readings. The following are my tap water parameters and then my tank parameters.

Tap water: 
pH: 7.6-ish (hard to read this one...)
KH: took 13 drops to change color
GH: took 24 drops to change color

Tank: (29gal kept at 81degrees F)
pH: steady 8.2 whenever I test it
KH: took 14 drops to change color
GH: took 22 drops to change color
salt: stopped using so the plants would do better
substrate Eco-complete
have a large piece of driftwood
moderately planted
Fish: 4 Swordtails, 1 mollie (soon to be more adults from another tank), 5 Zebra danios (will be trading these in soon for more plants), 6 Neon tetras, 5 ghost shrimp

I know better than to attempt to add chemicals to change the pH. What I'm confused about is how to translate my KH and GH readings. The chart that came with the tester (API brand) only goes up to 12 drops, which it says is 214.8 ppm KH/GH.

I found this website that has a slightly more enlightening chart: http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hardness.htm

I find it odd that my pH swings so quickly from 7.6 to 8.2 in the tank within several hours. I've tested this a couple times with both the normal range pH tester and the high pH tester so I'm pretty sure the tap water really is around 7.6 or 7.8. I have a HUGE bag of peat "soil" that I can use if I need to gently buffer the soil, but I'd rather not. (The peat came from work, it's what we use to grow plants in, soil-less media mostly composed of peat moss ground very finely).

My final question is (drumroll please! If you've gotten to the bottom of this post, give yourself a pat on the back)

Are these parameters ok for the fish I'm raising? I'm pretty much sticking with mollies and swordtails. I realized after I bought the neons that they require completely different parameters, so I probably won't be getting more, but I'm keeping the ones I've got.

Thanks!


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## jamesandmanda (Sep 17, 2008)

kh and gh are measures of water hardness carbonate hardness(kh) and general hardness(gh). imho kh and gh dont matter that much to an extent. im sure someone on this forum with much more knowledge an experience than me will be able to answer your question in detail.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sam: Several Items



Manthalynn said:


> which it says is 214.8 ppm KH/GH.


Something is wrong here as I have rarely heard of this high of hardness.




Manthalynn said:


> KH: took 13 drops to change color
> GH: took 24 drops to change color
> The chart that came with the tester (API brand) only goes up to 12 drops,


Are you certain that you are reading the instructions correctly?

What I am accustommed to is that, in 5 ML, the GH and KH are equivalent to the numbers of drops necessary for a change of color.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

swordtails and mollies do great in "liquid rock" like you have. But don't expect baby neon tetras. I'd expect the test yields a linear concentration curve. So 24 drops would be twice the ppm of the 12 drop reading. You could confirm this by plotting ppm vs drops in excel. Anything over 300 ppm is very hard, in the L. Tanginika range. But your livebearers come from water carved out of limestone in mexico, so they won't mind at all.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> I have rarely heard of this high of hardness.


 I guess you never lived in Northern Illinois. Really high hardness is common is places where they mine limestone. Look at the oldest buildings in a town, if they are light colored rock, you will have hard water.


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## Delthane (Sep 2, 2008)

EMC is right about Northern Illinois, My PH is an insane 8.4 so Liquid Rock is an appropriate description


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> So 24 drops would be twice the ppm of the 12 drop reading. You could confirm this by plotting ppm vs drops in excel. .


Good idea! I'll have to try this and see if I can post the results.



emc7 said:


> But your livebearers come from water carved out of limestone in mexico, so they won't mind at all.


This makes me feel a lot better. I actually haven't had any fry yet that were concieved in my tanks, but I think that's because they've been in a tiny 10gal until now. Not that I need or want the fry, but I figure since mollies procreate like rabbits, if they're not multiplying, something's probably wrong.

I've read on here people talk about having a GH of 80 or 100. I'm assuming that's the ppm, not the "degrees of hardness" that is the number of drops?

Thanks all for your advice!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> GH of 80 or 100


 Yes, thats ppm. Anything under 100 is considered soft and there is a chance of pH falling when the "buffering capacity" is used up. I moved from N. Illinois well water to Atlanta "rain-water" so I've seen both ends. The greater chicago cichlid association is huge. The water up there is perfect for the africans lake cichlids. I think you could keep tanginikans in your tap water with no modification and they would thrive.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> I think you could keep tanginikans in your tap water with no modification and they would thrive.


They would be interesting, especially the rock dwelling type. But I don't have a large enough tank at this point. But I'll keep them in mind, definitely. I keep eyeing craigslist for another steal of a tank/stand.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks:

A couple of items:

*One*
I was aware that in the "old world" (historically and not fishie) the values which Sam reported were considered medium hard to very hard I had never experienced these values with my poor water quality (prior to going to RO) even with Edwards Plateau Limestone plates in my area of West Texas or have heard of them in Central Texas where this Limestone Formation is fairly uniform.

*Two*
Does Sam's test kit employ a color strip? My first liquid test kit did not and my current TetraTest does not.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Does Sam's test kit employ a color strip? My first liquid test kit did not and my current TetraTest does not.


Ron, no, my kit does not contain a color strip. This is the kit that I have.

I'll have to do some more research, but I do know we have at least hard-ish water here in my county. It's not so bad that I've ever had a faucet clog with sediment, though. I'm not sure what the underlying soil series is or where exactly my water source is (can't tell which local lake it is...). Once I figure that out, it might help me. My LFS says, "Yeah, we have hard water." And that's all I was able to get out of him.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

You gotta love government white papers! I just found a 300+ page report on the water quality of my city. Attached is some info I pulled from the report. Does it make any sense to you? Good to know I don't have ammonia in the water already. I'm assuming "ND" stands for "none detected".

Interesting stuff, those white papers...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

539 to 623 mg/L. Not sure if that is a typical reading or the highest they found over a period of time. Millligram per liter is going to be close to ppm. Parts per million is a volume ratio, mg/L is weight/volume. Like they took a liter of water, boiled it and weighed the residue. If you were only talking about water, ppm would be the same. But since you are using heavier stuff, it gets more complicated. To go back to ppm, you'd have to know what the residue was made of. But you can safely say that your test is correct, your water is very hard.

Somewhere you should also be able to find a conversion from conductance to TDS.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> TDS = 0.935 x Sp.C. - 368


Using this equation, I get 380 to 660 ppm TDS. Which is also in the range of GH returned by your kit.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> Ron, no, my kit does not contain a color strip.


Sam:

Please excuse me here: when you said chart I believed you to mean spectral chart when you meant textual chart.

Now I understand (ie. finally got it through my thick head).

There may be a way around this. How many ml's do you put in the vial before you start adding drops?

TR




emc7 said:


> mg/L is weight/volume.


em:

Knowing you I am obviously missing something here but mg is a measurement of mass and not weight.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Ron, you're right, grams are mass, not weight. But here on Earth where gravity is constant its typical (and sloppy) to use them interchangeably.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> you're right


TG: been a bad two weeks here and I thought that I might have lost it!

em:

Please check me out even further as it has been a long, long time here (like decades) but

with a very accurate and precise digital scale in a vacuum, the knowledge of the specific gravity of a material and, the knowledge of the acceleration due to gravity at the location of the scale a mass of a sample can be determined?

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Please check me out even further as it has been a long, long time here (like decades) but
> 
> with a very accurate and precise digital scale in a vacuum, the knowledge of the specific gravity of a material and, the knowledge of the acceleration due to gravity at the location of the scale a mass of a sample can be determined?


Ron, it's been about a decade since I was a physics major (and have since changed majors!) but I think mass equals weight (W) divided by gravitational acceleration at a specific place. m=W/g...I think. Boy, it has been a long week if we're all thinking about this! Nice to know I'm not the only nerd concerned about these things. Um, not that I'm calling you a nerd

Also, in response to your other question, I added 5mL of water before adding the reagent.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> 539 to 623 mg/L. Not sure if that is a typical reading or the highest they found over a period of time.


The table said it was for a certain date. There were several individual tables for different dates and all the dates had around the same readings (there were at least five, giving a nice sample size to reduce the Standard Error).

Oh, and they had TDS listed, I just didn't know if they were important (chemistry was never my strong suit)

TDS (mg/L) Detection limit: 10
The two values listed were 720 and 990

I can also provide you with all the metals that are present (some nice little arsenic, copper, and zinc), the "organochlorine pesticides" (we're in a big agriculture area so there's nitrates present...), total oil and grease findings, chlorinated herbicides (thankfully not DDT or 2,4-D), disolved oxygen, and Electrical conductivity.

So I guess I am glad I pay taxes so that the government can do water quality reports like these that help me raise my fish properly!

Thanks for your help, guys (EMC and Ron), I really appreciate the time you've taken.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

TDS is quickest estimate of hardness because you can can buy a pen for $20 that will give you a number in seconds. Where KH is specific stuff in the water TDS (total dissolved solids in ppm) is everything and the I think the pen estimates it from conductivity. I like it because I have a pen and a chart with the TDS of the Africans lakes most of my fish are from. It is definately "quick and dirty" and doesn't tell you specifics of what is in the water. 

yes weight = mass * acceleration due to gravity (constant) and since most scales will read both in lbs (weight) & grams (mass) and you "weigh" things I tend to incorrectly think of grams as weight.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> since most scales will read both in lbs (weight) & grams (mass) and you "weigh" things I tend to incorrectly think of grams as weight.


That's ok, I tend to think of grams as weight, too. We're so blessed to have a constant gravitation force here on earth that we can take it for granted, aren't we!

How would you recommend I monitor my water parameters? I really only plan on keeping Mollies and swords (I gave up on the idea of Rams once I learned they like low pH water). And I can't afford to fill my tank with bottled water. As long as I keep the right fish, can I just keep using my tap water as is (with the addition of dechlorinator, of course) without having to buy fancy machines and chemicals to adjust th water?

Thanks for your help!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> As long as I keep the right fish, can I just keep using my tap water as is (with the addition of dechlorinator, of course) without having to buy fancy machines and chemicals to adjust th water?


Yes, keep mexican, central american or african lake fish and you will do fine with that water. You may have to periodically scrub the scale off your filter intakes or soak them in vinegar, just like you do you shower heads and coffee makers.

You may have to research the right plants, I could never keep plants alive in really hard water, but I know people that do, so there are some that will work.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> Boy, it has been a long week if we're all thinking about this! Nice to know I'm not the only nerd concerned about these things. Um, not that I'm calling you a nerd


Aside from the length of the week I believe the above statement would be appropriate, regardless of intention. The upside is that in my experience of Ron it will be seen as complimentary, which in my opinion it is. 

While I am in no fashion a numbers nerd (and thus somewhat lost in this thread, but have followed none-the-less), I remember the day I was called a nerd in relation to my psychology studies. To this day I feel it was the biggest compliment a person (not an instructor, who are people to but in a category all by themselves) has ever given me. The student who told me this appeared baffled by my gratitude for the statement. 

What it boils down to is this:
NERDS RULE!!!!!


Hijack complete.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> (I gave up on the idea of Rams once I learned they like low pH water).


Not that it is the "best" thing in the world to do I can tell you that my blue ram has been fine in a tank with 8.0 Ph. I started with 5 and lost 4 but that was clearly due to bullying by the sole survivor. In this instance it is highly possible that once this bullying began the high Ph made it easier for the stress of that to lead to their demise. Unless you are starting with a pair from the get-go I would recommend only getting one if you do make this choice.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I've lost lots of rams in my soft, acid water. There may be a virus out there specific to them, like the angelfish plague. Or they may just not travel well. I have heard of people breeding both rams & angels in hard, alkaline water, but with so many great hard-water fish availible why "borrow trouble". BTW, I hear bolivian rams are more tolerant of harder water than the little ones.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Obsidian said:


> is that in my experience of Ron it will be seen as complimentary


Yes it was although I did not respond to Sam's comment.

I came out of the pocket protector world, although I never wore one, and am very proud of it! Professional licenses are fine and dandy but just can come nowhere close to the Supreme Nerd exemplification hanging on the wall.




Obsidian said:


> NERDS RULE!!!!!


Much, much truer than most folks would ever conceive as the glad handers of our choice are out there because we want them to be and not the reverse.


Back on Topic:

Sam:

The primary water parameters of interest to fish keepers are ammonia and nitrites.

You did not publish the nitrate concentration of your tap water, if indeed this concentration is published, but 25% weekly WC's even with tap water but with a planted tank should obviate a concern with respect to nitrates.

I had limited success with Platy's which are very similar to Swordtail's (they will interbreed) but this was my fault.

I understand that Molly's are happy in an ecosystem with a low salt concentration but with current mass production breeding protocols I doubt that this understanding is true.

I have no experience with respect to API test kits.

With respect to your plants I have "el zippo" experience with hard water but I can say that my Anubias' and Giant Val's have survived in spite of "all of my experimenting".

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Many people keep mollies in brackish water, but I think very hard water will serve the same purpose in keeping the fish healthy. In the same way that many people keep African cichlids in brackish, even though their home lakes have very little NaCl in them. The presents of salts, not the type, is what seems necessary. Years age, I had thriving mollies and guppies in my "liquid rock" water in Ill. Now I treat my livebearers with the same Malawi cichlid salts & buffers I use for my Malawi cichlids. If I keep them in my soft tap water, they fail to thrive, get an illness and die.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> Yes, keep mexican, central american or african lake fish and you will do fine with that water. .


Good to know! I'm starting to learn the origin of different species of fish and their required biotypes. After you mentioned tanganikans I started researching them online and thought they were a breed of fish. Then in talking to my LFS owner about a certain catfish he mentioned they come from Lake Tanganikan. I was so proud that I actually knew what he was talking about (and that I finally figured out it was a biotype, not a species)! It's nice to know some of the knowledge that I've absorbed from this place is sticking!



emc7 said:


> You may have to periodically scrub the scale off your filter intakes or soak them in vinegar, just like you do you shower heads and coffee makers.


So that's what the residue is! (Duh, should have known) I thought it was NaCl salt build-up since I had been dosing with salt up until a few weeks ago (Don't worry, I slowly tapered them off). It builds up quite rapidly. After scrubbing with vinegar, can I just rinse it really well to remove the vinegar or do I need to take extra precautions?



emc7 said:


> You may have to research the right plants, I could never keep plants alive in really hard water, but I know people that do, so there are some that will work.


My anubias that I attached to my driftwood over a month ago seems to be doing well. It already has more leaves than when it started. My java fern also is producing a ton of pups (or whatever those type of asexual reproductive parts are called...) that I have started to divide. I planted a crypt of some sort last week and a tiny piece with one root broke off so I planted that, too. I've already got a new leaf on that one, so I'm assuming they're doing well.

If I find a definitive list, I'll post it under the planted aquarium section for others to yay or nay.



> The presents of salts, not the type, is what seems necessary.


How very interesting! I'm glad I understood enough of my chemistry to be able to follow this.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Obsidian said:


> Unless you are starting with a pair from the get-go I would recommend only getting one if you do make this choice.


Thank you for the experienced advice! As Emc said, there are so many other great fish to keep, I think I will stick with them for now since you mention Rams are slightly more iffy in hard water. I'll save myself the money since I'm just starting out. When I feel the need for a new challenge, then maybe I'll look into them.

(By the way, glad to see another hijacker around here! I'm terrible at that!)


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Yes it was although I did not respond to Sam's comment.


Ron, I'm very glad you took this as a compliment. It was definitely meant as such! But sometimes my compliments don't come out very clear. Calling someone a nerd is indeed high praise in my book.





> The primary water parameters of interest to fish keepers are ammonia and nitrites.


Good to know. I suspected as much and I feel confident that I have those down. I have no detectable ammonia in my tap and I monitor ammonia and nitrItes in my tanks carefully (more than once a week on two of them since they're fairly newly set up).



> You did not publish the nitrate concentration of your tap water, if indeed this concentration is published, but 25% weekly WC's even with tap water but with a planted tank should obviate a concern with respect to nitrates.


It only mentions "Total Kjeldahl Nitrogen" and "Total Organic Nitrogen", both of which report none detected. I had just heard that we have nitrates in the water because we're in Ag land. I'll have to verify this by testing my tap water with my kit again.

According to Wikipedia, "Total Kjeldahl Nitrogen or TKN is the sum of organic nitrogen; ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4+) in biological wastewater treatment." 



> With respect to your plants I have "el zippo" experience with hard water but I can say that my Anubias' and Giant Val's have survived in spite of "all of my experimenting".


My plants seem to be doing ok for now. The _V. contorta_ (at least, thats what the LFS claimed they were) seem ok, they haven't melted yet. It's only been a week so we'll see how they're doing.

Thanks for your help!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

rinsing the vinegar until you can't smell it should be good enough. If you really want to test something, check the pH of the rinse. When it stops being acidic, its good to go. Vinegar isn't toxic but it lowers pH, after all, its an acid, that's why it works.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I will probably test the pH just to make sure. Believe it or not, I have no sense of smell, none, zippo, nada, and never have so that route won't work for me.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sam:

I very much appreciate your diligent research here (but if you continue much further I will have to get back into Water Treatment Plant design [hence really have to get into this "thinking business"])


em & Sam

em: your vinegar post really rang a bell which should have already been rung but it brought me back to a chemistry course in high school (ie. the concept of titration).

Why do we not try this Sam? as you have a 29G tank.

Wash out a 1G jug with hot water and soap, rinse several times in hot water, then in the water with which you perform WC's and fill the vessel with your WC water and add dechlorinate.

Induce 5ml of vinegar into the vessel and I believe that (although I am really struggling here with the calculations this morning) you will observe that the Ph of the water in the vessel will have dropped from 8.5 to 8.0.

Continue "titrating" the water in the vessel with 5ml of vinegar until the Ph decreases to 7 and you will then know what "you are dealing with here".

I have absolutely no experience with what you are dealing with here but maybe decreasing the Ph over like a 4 week period might be appropriate.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You don't have to use vinegar. Many people just use hot water, brushes and brute force. But you do want to make sure the small openings in your equipment stay open. Usually its the little air holes that get clogged. The rest (on the lid, on the sides of the tank) is just ugly. Try to wipe off any drips as soon as they occur.


Ron: titrating with vinegar may give you an idea of what hes dealing with, but IME trying to drop the pH in water like that is a losing battle. The only sensible way to do it (assuming there was a good reason to) is to use at least 70% or RO or rainwater. The "buffering capacity" of a tank with that hardness is very high. One of this days I'll pull out my old p-chem books anrd run some equations for us.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> (but if you continue much further I will have to get back into Water Treatment Plant design [hence really have to get into this "thinking business"])


Yeah, I'm pretty much at the end of my science rope, too! And you used the word titration. I think I just got hives...




> Wash out a 1G jug with hot water and soap, rinse several times in hot water, then in the water with which you perform WC's and fill the vessel with your WC water and add dechlorinate.
> 
> Induce 5ml of vinegar into the vessel and I believe that (although I am really struggling here with the calculations this morning) you will observe that the Ph of the water in the vessel will have dropped from 8.5 to 8.0.
> 
> Continue "titrating" the water in the vessel with 5ml of vinegar until the Ph decreases to 7 and you will then know what "you are dealing with here".


I would be interested to see how much vinegar it takes to reduce my pH, but I'm not sure I would be able to keep up with it for the tanks at large. I'm afraid that if I lower the pH in the tank, I will cause a mess up pH skyrocketing them plumetting. But I think the buffering capacity of my water is extremely high, so it's going to take a LOT of vinegar. 

Is that what people use when they want to adjust the pH of their water? I'm very wary of using pH modifiers...

Thanks again for all the brain work you guys have done for me. It was really above and beyond!

PS: Did I mention I have access to a whole bunch of peat moss? If I do any pH modifying would it be possible to use the peat?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> But I think the buffering capacity of my water is extremely high, so it's going to take a LOT of vinegar.
> 
> Is that what people use when they want to adjust the pH of their water? I'm very wary of using pH modifiers...


Sam:

I am not "hot to trot" on putting chemicals into my tank and do not do so.

em does not think that my suggestion is a good idea but vinegar is just acetic (ie. organic) acid and via titration you will be able to get a handle on how much is necessary in order to slowly lower your Ph as well as to maintain a lower Ph via WC's (should you desire a lower Ph).

I do not believe that much vinegar will be necessary based on my calculations this morning (but I was really struggling for non-nerd reasons) and if vinegar does not work then we could go to sulfuric acid (cheap in office maintenance supply stores) or muriatic acid (cheap in swimming pool supply stores) but these acids are obviously not organic.

TR

BTW: In my brain the problem with the peat is the inconsistency which will you will observe from its' employment in your filtration system.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

pH Down is hydrochloric acid and I tell people not to use it because the pH just pops back up and the yoyo is worse than leaving it alone. I think, except for the neons, all MLs fish will thrive in his tap water, so why bother messing with it. 

I do think vinegar would get the pH down. Any acid will. But if you start addding it, you can never stop monitoring and adding more. Also, for most "low pH' fish, the pH isn't really what they need low. Most "Blackwater" fish need soft water as much or more than they need acid water and lowering hardness by adding stuff causes other issues. To get stuff out of solution, you have to cause it to precipitate which makes a nice "snowglobe" effect in your tank. I usually recommend RO water instead of adding stuff if you want to do a soft, acid water biotope.

And I don't think 'organic' is a good criterium for a acid to add to a tank. HCl is actually a good choice because the counter ion, Cl- is something fish can live with. A little salt is probably a better choice than a big organic molecule.

This idea the "organic" is safer is a pet peeve of most chemists. Botulism and curare, & cobra venom are all organic. Evolution has created 10,00+ natural ways to kill other organisms. A synthetic chemical that is 99.97% pure where I know what the other 0.03% is seem a lot safer to me than any "plant extract" where toxic mold could grow on the leaves or the plant could be mixed with a toxic plant with similar shaped leaves. As for food, I just want it clean, no bacteria, mold, or chemical residues. Sorry for the digression.

I don't think any effect from peat would be very strong in such a well buffered system. But I'm just guessing, it could be something to experiment with.

But most of this is speculation and opinion. Its been too long since I did the math.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Sam:
> 
> I am not "hot to trot" on putting chemicals into my tank and do not do so.
> 
> em does not think that my suggestion is a good idea but vinegar is just acetic (ie. organic) acid and via titration you will be able to get a handle on how much is necessary in order to slowly lower your Ph as well as to maintain a lower Ph via WC's (should you desire a lower Ph).


If I ever decide to set up a low pH tank, I will definitely try this method. Thanks! (There's a 55gal WITH stand on Craigslist for $100 right now and I'm really itching to buy it and try another biotype! Tuition...tuition...tuition...that needs to be my mantra)


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> the yoyo is worse than leaving it alone.





> I usually recommend RO water instead of adding stuff if you want to do a soft, acid water biotope.


How does one do RO water, anyway? I know we used it at our nursery, but I never saw the machine that carries out this process since it was in the boiler room. Is there a cheap, home version? I also read somewhere mention of a chemical that you add to deionize water. Is there really such a thing? But it sounds like RO or rainwater would be better in this case. 



> A little salt is probably a better choice than a big organic molecule.


Which is a problem with a planted tank. My poor little mystery snail. I plopped him in and he was dead in a few days. Duh! I'd forgotten I'd been dosing with 1Tbs of salt per 5 gallons! 



> This idea the "organic" is safer is a pet peeve of most chemists. Botulism and curare, & cobra venom are all organic.


Incidentally, did you know there ARE synthetics allowed in "Certified Organic" crop production? See here for details. I'm allergic to a few organic supplements and I just get annoyed with the whole fad part of organic. I think it could be a great idea, but for the moment I have a few caveats. I am wholely for Sustainability, which is why I have a really hard time using my Python to clean my tanks. It's cool that it pumps it directly down the drain so I don't have to empty a 29gal tank 2 gallons at a time. But it takes twice the water flow to set up the suction pressure and then all that good, full-of-nitrates-for-your-house-plants, water goes down the drain, too. But that's for another post...




> I don't think any effect from peat would be very strong in such a well buffered system. But I'm just guessing, it could be something to experiment with.


I thought it would be interesting to set up my 5gal Hex with peat media as the substrate for a planted tank. I don't have anything in there right now and it would be interesting to see how drastically it affects the pH. I use the peat soil in my pots since I get it free from work and it does ok. Ooo, and then I could use Ron's vinegar or acid solution to make initially get the water lower...hmmm...scheming already...

Thanks for the help!

Samantha

PS: By the way, I'm a she. For some reason, my online persona always makes people think I'm male. Haven't figured out why, because in real life, I'm about middle of the road when it comes to being girly or tomboyish...ah well...it doesn't offend me. How were you to know, I have a weird screenname.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

em: Please believe me in that I am not being argumentative but only expressive.



emc7 said:


> HCl is actually a good choice because the counter ion, Cl- is something fish can live with. A little salt is probably a better choice than a big organic molecule.


Our bodies deal with or principally utilize organic appendages to the benzene ring for sustenance whereas minor changes in salt concentrations can be lethal.




emc7 said:


> This idea the "organic" is safer is a pet peeve of most chemists. Botulism and curare, & cobra venom are all organic. Evolution has created 10,00+ natural ways to kill other organisms. A synthetic chemical that is 99.97% pure where I know what the other 0.03% is seem a lot safer to me than any "plant extract" where toxic mold could grow on the leaves or the plant could be mixed with a toxic plant with similar shaped leaves. As for food, I just want it clean, no bacteria, mold, or chemical residues. Sorry for the digression.


I do not disagree with these assertions but if I believed that acid were necessary I would use acetic acid instead of sulfuric acid.




emc7 said:


> But most of this is speculation and opinion.


Same here.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Carbonic acid would also be a way to lower pH. Carbonate is also the water already. Or if you really want to go planted, bubble CO2. 




> minor changes in salt concentrations can be lethal.


 For what its worth, minor changes in blood pH can kill you too, but its fine to drink lemonaid and eat pretzels. 
I figure evolution provides a mechanism to deal with salt in water and food. What you don't want to do is introduce something into the tank or into your body that wasn't around when we were evolving unless you know what it will do. Thats why trans fats are bad, we have no mechanism to deal with them. Lots of inorganic minerals are both natural and essential both to fish and to us. I think "sustainably harvested" or "locally grown" are both better goals than "organic". There are reasons to switch to organically grown produce, but safetly isn't one of them. If I had a kid, it would always get pasturized milk and apple juice and irradiated meat. IMO: Microorganiisms are a far more of threat to us than "unnatural" processes. I fear ergot more than I fear funguscide. I am for truth in labeling. In this day and age its unacceptable that we can't backtrack any food back to its source and see every lot number of evey thing it was fed or sprayed with. Every school child around the world should know that scrap industrial waste does not belong in the food supply. I'm pro-chemistry even in food, but you must know what you are adding to food and you must disclose everything to the consumer. 


Back on track. RO is reverse osmosis. Its a filter with a membrane that separate your water into two streams, one with almost no dissolved solids, the other with more than you started with. If you let the "waste" water go down the drain, you do waste water maybe 2 or 3 gallons for each gallon of filtered, but you can capture the waste water and use it depending on how you plump it. You can buy home systems somewhere in the hundreds of dollars, but there is continuing expense as you buy replacement cartridges. You often see cheap used systems for sale on ebay with spent cartridges. You can usually buy "filtered" or distilled water at places like wal-mart or the grocery store. For a test 5 gallon, its not worth buying a system. Distilled is boiled and then condensed to remove impurities. Deionizing is a different process, I'll have to read up on it. You don't want to use any of these straight. You either blend it with your tap water or add in measured amounts of exactly the minerals you want in the water. 



> I'm a she.


me too


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

> Or if you really want to go planted, bubble CO2.


Does CO2 help with the hardness? Or is it just good for the plants? (I'm aware of why it's good for plants regarding photosynthesis, I'm just wondering if there are other reasons it's good...)



> You can buy home systems somewhere in the hundreds of dollars, but there is continuing expense as you buy replacement cartridges. You often see cheap used systems for sale on ebay with spent cartridges. You can usually buy "filtered" or distilled water at places like wal-mart or the grocery store.


I think I'm going to just watch the fish for now. Since you say that the species I have should be fine, I'll just monitor them for the time being. I think one of my swords is going to give birth in a couple weeks. I've had her for a couple months, so I think that means she's happy now in my larger tank.





> > I'm a she.
> 
> 
> me too


D'oh! Sorry! Pot calling the kettle black! (It would be interesting to see a psychological research study on what we assume online people's gender is. I always thought that whole he/she in textbooks was too PC and annoying. But perhaps it's important! Man, do I digress...)

Thank you both for your invigorating and enlightening comments. I sure learned a lot and appreciate all the time and thought you put into this discussion!


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Hey, I just found this regarding Vals and hard water... I might start a thread for any research I find on plants and hard water/high pH. 

"[Vals] respond best to a nutrient rich bottom and moderate to bright light. They also do well in hard water and under bright light will strip CO2 from the KH molecule, causing biogenetic de-calcification." Aquabotanic

"Biogenic decalcification 
When there is a carbon dioxide deficiencey in the water, plants can derive CO2 from the hardening constituents of the carbonate hardness. First they split the hydrogen carbonates into CO2 and carbonates. This causes the pH to rise about one step and the largely insoluable carbonates precipitate and form rough deposits on the leaves and substrate. Some plants such as Vallisneria can even destroy the carbonates and obtain CO2 from them. This raises the pH again by another step. Biogenic decalcification thus causes the water to be 10 to 100 times more alkaline than it was previous. In the dark, the process reverses and the pH drops considerably. Thus these continous large pH swings can pose a significant risk to the well being of fish and animals. The solution is to add enough CO2 to the water and have a significant carbonate level to act as a buffer. "

Hmm, I think I will have to measure my pH after having the light on all day and then early in the morning just before turning the lights back on, so as to catch them when they've been dark longest. I'll do this for several days (pH is quick and dirty) then plot them and see if I can see a trend. Oh, I forgot to mention my tank has over a dozen Vals in it, hence the interest in Vals in particular.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sam:

Do you know that you are making my head hurt. :chair: :chair: :chair:

Just kidding of course as you are doing very good here via the condensation of your research.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Thats kind of cool, how the plant turns hard water into an asset. I'll have to try some vals in my hard-water tanks. Do show us some results. I'm guessing that your water is so hard that your pH swing will be pretty small. 

Injecting CO2 causes pH swings too. The plants don't take it in all the time but few people use timers to turn it off and on. 

The whole CO2 thing is kind of expensive and complicated to try, but some of the tanks I've seen with it are really gorgeous. 

If I've called you "he", I apologize.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> The whole CO2 thing is kind of expensive and complicated to try, but some of the tanks I've seen with it are really gorgeous.


Sam:

I employ a 2L DIY CO2 reactor for my 110G tank.

This reactor produces approximately 5ppm CO2 which, very qualitatively, seems to really help my plants.




emc7 said:


> If I've called you "he", I apologize.


em:

please excuse me also as I have always believed you to be male (ie. only a male could be as proficient as you are
:chair: :chair: :chair: :fun: :fun: :fun::twisted::twisted::twisted:

TR


BTW: em: please excuse me em but I just could not help myself!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Lol, I'm kind of flattered. Given the sex ratio in my Physic's classes I can't blame you for playing the odds. I have let plenty of oppurtunities to correct you go by. I just never considered it important. I find that he/she construction in the books really annoying.


Elaine M. C.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

> em:
> 
> please excuse me also as I have always believed you to be male (ie. only a male could be as proficient as you are
> :chair: :chair: :chair: :fun: :fun: :fun::twisted::twisted::twisted:
> ...


I was thinking the same thing, too! Boy, I do a diservice to my sex. Whenever I have any doubt, I just figure, "Oh, EMC said it. It must be correct because they have proven their experience!"

Ron, sorry for making your head hurt! I annoy my professors, too, with my incesant questions. Oh well, you two seem to be patient enough to help me.



> I employ a 2L DIY CO2 reactor for my 110G tank.
> 
> This reactor produces approximately 5ppm CO2 which, very qualitatively, seems to really help my plants.


That's good to know. I kind of dismissed those because I didn't know if they worked very well. I need to research those more in the DIY folder.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

> Thats kind of cool, how the plant turns hard water into an asset.


That's what I thought at first, too. But then I thought, hmm, it does talk about pH swings, so maybe that's a bad thing. But my fish and plants are at least surviving (I've only had a planted tank for little over a week) so things must be at least acceptable for now.



> I'm guessing that your water is so hard that your pH swing will be pretty small.


That makes me feel better.



> The whole CO2 thing is kind of expensive and complicated to try, but some of the tanks I've seen with it are really gorgeous.


I would love to try CO2 some day, but I just really don't have the time and money for it right now. I saw one at my LFS that was only 50 bucks. Sort of a cross between a DIY and a real setup. I'll have to find it on a webpage and make a post for it in the equipment folder for people to critique.



emc7 said:


> If I've called you "he", I apologize.


Don't worry at all! It wasn't offensive, I just figured I'd clarify. It takes a WHOLE lot more than that to offend me.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> Lol, I'm kind of flattered. Given the sex ratio in my Physic's classes I can't blame you for playing the odds.
> Elaine M. C.


Me too. In my Calculus 4 class there was me and 12 guys. But I heard recently on NPR that girls are now equal in ability (ie: test scores and enrollment, we always knew they were just as capable) to boys in the sciences.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> Me too. In my Calculus 4 class


Sam:

Things have really changed in 40 years.

Ours stopped at Calculus 2 (remember the transcendental substitutions in integral equations and the joy in figuring those pesky little devils out?).

We then went into differential equations along with numerical methods.

I am just curious as to the material which you studied in Calculus 4?

TR


BTW: 

When being accused of being in some state of inebriation while drinkin and dancin in a West Texas honky tonk my standard response is "No way as I can still solve 1st order differential equations in my head".

Obviously by this time of night I am flat out lieing but the assertion does dampen the noise when I order the next Lone Star longneck.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I've actually blocked out all of my Calculus knowledge except for the sense to shudder when infinite series are mentioned. It's been 8 years since I studied it and I changed majors to horticulture since then.

My university was odd in that it had four quarters of calculus. Other universities in the state only had three quarters and everyone thinks I'm exagerating when I say four quarters. Our third quarter was out of left field stuff, and then in quarter four we resumed normal things. I only took the 4 quarters of calculus and 1 quarter of Linear Algebra before switching majors.

The first two quarters were "techniques and applications of differentiation and integration of the elementary functions."

Third and fourth quarter were multivariable, "Differential and integral calculus of multivariable functions and related topics."

I used to hate dx/dy notation until I got into the multivariable and then I finally saw the value in it.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sam:

I understand now.

My 1 was your 1 & 2 and my 2 was your 3 & 4.

You did not answer my question.

Did you not thoroughly enjoy "figuring out" the transcendental substitutions in order to solve some of the integral equations?

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> You did not answer my question.
> 
> Did you not thoroughly enjoy "figuring out" the transcendental substitutions in order to solve some of the integral equations?


Sorry, I thought I had with my comment of having blocked everything out. I recently tried to help someone with a limits problem (classic Pre-calc) and couldn't do it.

But I did look at this website, and if this is what you're talking about, I seem to remember enjoying this part. I LOVE algebra. And really, calculus is just algebra with letters instead of numbers. In fact, looking at this, I kind of miss calculus! I love just sitting down and crunching numbers. 

As you can tell, I'm sort of in a funk as to the "what do I want to do with my life" question. Tried Math/Physics (needed more math for my physics degree anyway, so I figured I'd just take the one extra class and declare a double major- looks impressive but really wasn't). Then I decided I didn't want to sit behind a desk and "consider a spherical cow" for the rest of my life (sorry, math joke...mathemiticians simplify everything). I still see changing rate problems everywhere I look.

Then I transfered, considered physical therapy for 6 weeks. I was lucky enough to work for an SLP so I got to observe PT's and decided, nope, that's not what I want to do. So there went my need for my physiology and anatomy class and my advanced basic chemistry class, which left me with Russian 101. Which, albeit interesting, did nothing towards moving me forward toward a degree. I already got my language requirements out of the way in my first two years of college.

Then I discovered horticulture and really enjoyed it. I LOVE taxonomy and systematics. But then I got into problems with severe anxiety and moderate depression (living in Seattle only compounded the problem...dark, crowded, traffic...yick...beautiful city otherwise, it just wasn't for me). So after struggling along for a few years there, I decided to move back home to California and got a job in the horticulture industry.

Three years later, and one really great therapist later, I've re-discovered my courage and confidence and am back in school. I had a couple weeks here where I plumeted into an anxiety spiral because of a "who moved my cheese" situation. I lost sight of what I really wanted and I unknowingly started chasing a new goal. When that new goal wasn't pleasing me and was stressing me out, I thought. Now what?! I thought this was what I wanted? So if it's not, I really have no clue because I've tried everything else and I really thought this was it. So I can't trust myself. Then I realized, hey, this isn't what I wanted to do! I was letting people confuse me. So now I'm happy again, not feel lost as to what i want to do and what I can do. My Statistics class kicked my butt because of testing anxiety, something I've never experienced before. But I suspect that was due to another professor nominating me for an honors society position and I thought then I had to achieve 100% in my classes (and obviously couldn't do that...) so I freaked out and did nothing for three weeks. So I'm taking that again next quarter. Yippee...

There now, aren't you glad you asked me a simple question about calculus?

Incidentally (and this also has NOTHING to do with water hardness or fish keeping...) I do remember the day I learned where Trig tables come from. Wow! I could take a piece of paper and a pencil and solve for the cosine of X out in the middle of nowhere with no calculator if need be. Knowing the why and how of things really motivates me. I think the McLauren (sp?) series was my favorite of anything I studied. That and "Linear Algebra Cheerleading" (Imagine...hold an arm out to your side at a 90 degree angle to your body. The other arm goes straight out front of your body, also 90 degree angle from your body. Those two arms represent axes X and Z. Your head represents axis Y....yeah, nerd...)


Ok, enough off topic for now...


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> I thought then I had to achieve 100% in my classes (and obviously couldn't do that...)


Sam:

Why not?


IMHO, the statistics classes and other classes where problem solving behavior is acquired is very good as well as the material.

Envision in 1984 the highest end wet tire test track in the world be constructed in the boonies of West Texas via the employment of least squares and sampling theories.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Statistics kicked my butt, too. It was so different I called it Psuedomath. They really didn't do a good job of explaining to me which of 3 similar equations with different results could be applied in given any situation. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. 

I didn't start to get a handle on them until I started playing with software to analyze data. Its really an essential part of mathematics, but it was taught to me totally differently from anything else.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> Statistics kicked my butt, too. It was so different I called it Psuedomath.... Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
> 
> I didn't start to get a handle on them until I started playing with software to analyze data. Its really an essential part of mathematics, but it was taught to me totally differently from anything else.


That's my biggest problem with Statistics, too. I keep trying to treat it like Algebra and Calculus. But its really not. The first test through me off hugely because I had been going along doing the homework just fine. And suddenly the test was mostly T/F questions. What math class has true false questions! The homework was all equations, etc. I think my teacher was an acceptable teacher, I just wasn't getting it. 

I'm starting to get a better handle on Stats by working for a professor of mine. I'm a fiend when it comes to Excel spreadsheets so she always has me run her spreadsheets with the data. I can make a spreadsheet to analyze anything, including qualitative responses. And she's had me include St. Dev and Standard Error for most of the worksheets. So I'm learning what you can do an SE on and what you can't.

Back to fish (I am so bad at getting people off on tangents!)

I will be posting in the Aquatic Plants folder my experiment proposal for testing pH in my tank as I mentioned before. I won't start for a few days, so hopefully people will critique my methods and give me a few hints. I'll post a link to the thread soon.

Thanks!


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Here's the link to my experiment proposal post...

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/aqu...eriment-ph-swings-vallisneria.html#post197677


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