# New Tankmates ...



## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Tonight I added 2 tankmates to my snail tank.
I breed Ramshorn & malaysian trumpet snails to feed my other fish.
Yes, I do break the shell on the MTS, but my puffers can and do suck them out when I don't. I also have ghost shrimp in there which I'm having a hard time getting to breed. I keep seeing my females pearl, but I never see any babies. At the moment, I also have assassin snails and a gold inca mystery snail hanging out in there too. They are just there until my clown loach has cleaned out my betta tank of snails, it got over run.

Anyways ...

Tonight I added a Calico Goldfish and a Dwarf African Frog.
The calico is an odd one. First of all, it isn't exactly a calico. It's solid gold (not orange) with no dots at all. But is definetly classified as a calico by the breeder. He has no idea why this guy looks like this, but was born in a tank with only calico goldfish. All of his siblings look like standard calicos.

I wonder if anyone else has ever seen one like this.
As soon as I put the goldfish in the tank, he started eating my baby snails whole. Keep in mind this fish is only about 2.5" at the moment. I've seen it chasing my shrimp also. I have never heard of goldfish behaving this way. 

I'm wondering if it's just getting situated in the new tank and will go back to eating flakes like any other goldie. Is this considered normal?

Also, should I worry about the dwarf african frog being in there with the goldfish? I know the ammonia levels are rather high because of all those snails, that's why I chose the goldfish. I'm wondering how the dwarf frog can handle the ammonia. I can move him into the community tank, but then do I need to worry about any of those fish attacking the lil frog?

It's been about a week since I saw my Hog Choker. Think I should start assuming the worst? Nobody in that tank has ever even chased him, so I doubt he became food, even for the Puffers. They have pretty much ignored him and have even slept next to him a few times. He could be hiding, but he usually is out playing in the sand a few times a day.
Lots of questions, I know.
But, thanks ahead of time to anyone who can answer them


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## lmb (Nov 1, 2011)

Why did you get the Calico Goldfish? For the snail overpopulation?

And how is the Ammonia so high? Do you do regular weekly water changes on this tank?

African Dwarf Frogs are very sensitive to high amounts of ammonia. I would recommend removing him temporarily for now. Personally, I would move him to the Betta tank - he would have a much more chance at survival in there than in the 38 gallon community tank. Some people don't recommend bettas and ADF's together, but In My Experience I've had success with them in the same tank (Why others don't is because it's hard to separately feed them because the betta will eat the ADF's meal as well as it's own).

As for the Ammonia, locate where it's coming from and stop it. In the mean time, start doing regular daily partial water changes (10% - 15%) with the addition of a good water conditioner (Like Prime or Amquel+. They both detoxifiy ammonia and nitrite for a total 24 hours < keeping the tank livable until the next water changes).

And just to advise you.. Fancy Goldfish need at least 20 - 30 gallon tank to live happily.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

lmb said:


> Why did you get the Calico Goldfish? For the snail overpopulation?


No, this is my snail breeding tank, I want the over population of snails for this tank only 
Is it normal for goldfish to eat snails? If so, this isn't the right home for the lil guy.



> And how is the Ammonia so high? Do you do regular weekly water changes on this tank?


It's so high because there are thousands of snails in a 10g tank 



> African Dwarf Frogs are very sensitive to high amounts of ammonia...


Thanks, I wasn't sure if he could handle the ammonia or not. I'll move him into the community tank. I'll just have to keep an eye on the angel.



> As for the Ammonia, locate where it's coming from and stop it...


It's coming from all the snails. Thanks for the advice of general maintenace, but I know how and have been keeping fish for over 20 years. This tank is the only one that I can't keep the ammonia levels livable for fish. My other tanks are all nearly perfect.



> And just to advise you.. Fancy Goldfish need at least 20 - 30 gallon tank to live happily.


Oh? I didn't realize they got so big. I guess I was just thinking of the goldfish you win at the fairs  I only chose a goldfish because of the high ammonia levels. I don't know of many fish that can handle it, but goldfish are supposed to be OK with it from what I've been told.


Still open to anyone's opinions & advice. Thanks ahead of time


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Goldfish love a snack of tasty snail. I've seen pet stores put the goldfish in tanks that get snail infestations just to clean them out. 

All goldfish get huge. It's a common misconception that they don't. The reason people think that is because the fish will not outgrow its aquarium. It will stunt the fish and cause health problems though.


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## lmb (Nov 1, 2011)

Hmm, I wonder why the snails make soo much ammonia..

Anyway, yes Goldfish will eat snails. I once used a Goldfish to get rid of my snail infestation once - He himself ate or killed all of them within a matter of 1 week flat.

bml is absolutely right. And yes, they do get that big.


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## P.senegalus (Aug 18, 2011)

Your goldfish will probably eat your shrimp too if it can catch them.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

+1 with bmlb!


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Sounds like I might need to re-home the goldfish then.
I'm debating on leaving the frog with the snails or moving him into the community tank still. It might only be a 10g tank, but it's running 2 Aqueon 30s. Lil overkill? sure, but it's a breeding tank and needs lots of filtration hehe.
I found it odd that the snails produce so much ammonia also. But, when there is nothing else in the tank, the snails still cause huge spikes.

For the moment I've moved the goldfish into the community tank.
He's happily gobbling up the few snails that the clown loaches missed.
I might move him into the betta tank to clean up the snails.
Think he'd be Ok with a betta?

I would have moved the frog also, but he's hiding very well at the moment.
No, he didn't escape. The lid is tight as a nun's .. well ... you know.


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## PostShawn (Dec 22, 2009)

It's not only that the goldfish get bigger. It's also that they are messier fish. They poop more then other fish. Also they are cold water fish, no heater needed. In a small tank with other tropical fish you are only increasing it's chances of getting diseases it would not normally be prone to and stunting it's growth which makes then die quicker. Goldfish can easily live 10 years or a lot longer. If it's not really what you want in a pet fish then take it back. It's the most common misconception to put goldfish in such small tanks and bowls. Even pet store employees of the big chain stores say it's fine but just do any research and you will see the truth. If you want to keep it then great for you and eventually get it the proper home. They are great fish with fun personalities. They make a variety of food for goldfish. You can try different things and see if it likes one of them the best. Also shelled peas are good for them too. Just squeeze the guts out of the pee shell because the they can't digest the shell as good. 

It sounds like you have a nice collection of tanks. Very cool!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

betta w/goldfish? Ok for a short time, not a good idea long term.: Betta like it warmer, goldfish will gobble up all the food, High-protein betta food not good for goldfish (should eat plants also, could "bloat"), goldfish will outgrow any betta-sized tank.

IME, snails see to breed proportionally to the amount fed. If you have high ammonia and too many snails, feed them less, a lot less.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

You could always put some plants in your snail tank to help with the ammonia. It would help to kill some of the waste that snails put out. They won't stay alive for very long, as the snails will most likely eat them.
You could put Anarchis in one of your snailess tanks, that grows like a weed, and just trim some off and throw it in the snail tank from time to time. 
This is, of course, allowing that your angels and other fish don't eat the Anarchis.

Also, on dwarf frogs:
A low filtered tank is best for these guys. If the tank has too much filtration and water movement it will become stressed and die within a week.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Sounds like the frog would do best in the community tank then.
I would rather keep him in the snail tank though, maybe with a friend.
I have a couple caves in there for them to get out of the current. I've watched this little guy and he doesn't seem to have any issues staying in one place on the bottom. I assume it's the water movement that stresses them, right?

The goldfish will most likely be returned. 
It seems to be doing fine in the community tank though. It's running an Emperor 400, so it can probably handle the extra waste. I'm running a penguin 350 on the puffer tank and an aqueon 30 on the betta tank. The snail tank is running 2 aqueon 30s.
I also removed almost all the gravel from my FW tanks. It's helped big time with the water levels and clarity. I only have about 1\4" - 1\2" in each tank. I have sugar sand in my puffer tank. I also run purigen on all my tanks and also have a sponge filter for the puffer tank. Long story short ... I am over-filtered. But, I still get ammonia spikes in the snail tank. My other tanks stay nearly perfect. I've gone down to changing the water every other week now and adding prime on the off week. When I have a bad spike, a lot of the adult snails will die off. Their babies eat them or I feed em to the puffers. I do a water change & after a couple of days, it returns to normal.

I have live plants in all my tanks by the way. Except the puffer tank, I'm still trying to find something that can tolerate the salt. I only keep it at about 1.005-1.007, but that seems to be too much for snails & plants.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

For anyone that might be interested (if any) ...
The final result was that the goldfish is with the betta, which has no heater. I live in FL by the way, I only turn my heater on for about a month out of the year at most. The water rarely goes below 75 without a heater 
For now, the goldfish can eat whatever leftover snails are in there. Shouldn't be many, I've had a clown loach in there for a coupole weeks now  The goldfish will most likely be returned in a week or two when petco gets more frogs for me to exchange him with 

The froggy is staying with the snails. I tested the water before I did a water change (I change all 4 tanks every other weekend and add prime the off weekend). To my surprise I had an almost perfect result. 0\0\0\ <5ppm nitrates. Perhaps the spikes were just the tank cycling, but it had been setup for almost a year, so I wasn't expecting a cycle  Anyways, frog is happy and swimming. I threw in a couple silk plants for him to hide under and he seems to have found a corner to call home. I will add a friend for him once the new order comes in.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

I can't imagine changing the water on a tank that is FULL of snails. I had an unexpected stow away snail this week and I'm having trouble keeping him alive because he hides in my plants when I take them out, and then goes to stay in the bucket when I take them out!!
Good luck with your froggy!
Yup, its the water current that stresses them out. They're actually very active if you give them enough room, and a hide hole to stay in.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

A big enough ammonia spike will force you to 'recycle' the tank. One serious overfeeding or a big snail die-off can do it. The rerun usually goes much quicker. Keep your food levels down and hopefully it will stay "cycled".


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

emc7 said:


> A big enough ammonia spike will force you to 'recycle' the tank. One serious overfeeding or a big snail die-off can do it. The rerun usually goes much quicker. Keep your food levels down and hopefully it will stay "cycled".


interesting ... I kept assuming the spike killed the snails. But, it was prolly the snails dieing that caused the spike. I haven't figured out why yet, but for some reason every 2-3 months most of my snail tank will just die off and then I have a ton of babies show up within a week.


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## CyberBob (Jul 22, 2011)

Sorafish said:


> I can't imagine changing the water on a tank that is FULL of snails. I had an unexpected stow away snail this week and I'm having trouble keeping him alive because he hides in my plants when I take them out, and then goes to stay in the bucket when I take them out!!
> Good luck with your froggy!
> Yup, its the water current that stresses them out. They're actually very active if you give them enough room, and a hide hole to stay in.


The water really isn't so bad. They certainly create waste, but it's almost microscopic. The filter catches nearly all of it. The trick is to only use a lil gravel. It lets the filter suck up the poo much better. The snails don't get to burrow as much, but that's OK ... they are food and easier to find that way.

Under current or surface?
I have a lot of surface activity from the filters, but the current is only strong at the front of the tank. I'm going to do a lil research and see if there is a way to possibly diffuse the water flow.


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## katfemme89 (Nov 27, 2009)

I just had a thought: snails can feed on microscopic organisms... aka the nitrifying bacteria. That's possibly what's keeping the ammonia high... lack of nitrifying bacteria. And I've noticed that a lot of people never realize how aggressive goldfish are. Mine are downright vicious. Killed a betta when they were still small (ate all his fins off). Now they're in the pond. They spawned and I have the small goldfish in my community tank, but even at an inch and a half they're starting to cause problems. I'm gonna put them back out there with their parents soon.


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