# Setup a new tank, 210 Gal



## buzz1167 (Sep 23, 2011)

Ok so I'd like to start by thanking you in advance for whatever knowledge I can gleam from you guys and that I know that I don't know everything  Crap, yea I said it but i do tend to be very analytical so i have already looked around... I'm looking for some help to setup a much bigger tank cuz I don't want my fish to die when i swap them over and I know I didn't do everything right the first time (or the second). I know of cycling but haven't done it properly before? I also dont know what kind of substrate I want because I want plenty plants for my fish which are in my sig... That brings me to plants, and what kind of fish, and omg it goes on forever.

You can skip my next paragraph or 2 if you don't care, just some general info, my thoughts, my current setup, how i got here. My tank setup is below in the sig. 

We started with 2 goldfish from a fair and quickly bought a 10 gal tank (cuz the one from the fair was tiny) and kept the goldfish with a wall mart Betta. I didn't know it mattered when I bought it, but it is a male. The tank was super dirty all the time even thought we had a "hang off the back filter" so I eventually got a bigger one - 25gal and it suffered the same fate but it took like a week or more, which I thought was normal, cuz i had heard of weekly water changes. We got some more fish, and some died, id say about 1/4 of the new ones died. 

2/7 platys, two of the original goldfish, and one fancy goldfish we bought. Maybe you can tell me if I'm right in their guesses of why they died.

1) Fancy goldfish got harassed by the regular goldfish until it died, i looked it up just recently (as i got more into it) and i see that the fancy goldfish cant hardly be with anything...
2) Platys, both of them died after their fins got nipped at the same time, they were fighting each other it looked like??? I didn't think they were aggressive. I never saw the betta get into it with any of the other fish, I figured he would be the problem but he had nothing to do with it to my knowledge.
3) I have no idea why the regular goldfish died? Maybe something to do with the water? One day he was just turned up on the bottom of the tank, all fins intact, didn't notice anything special, this was after maybe 3 months? After more than a month in the large tank, the other fish seem fine...

I eventually made a filter from stuff I had laying around, Rubbermaid container, old water-cooling computer pump, some pvc pipe and I bought the filter stuff from petsmart. Big cell foam, small cell foam, and two bags, one with carbon, one with bio ceramic things. I tried to emulate the design by fuval canister filter. The pump is obviously not "for aquariums", but the specs say 50Psi or 300GPH and I use it on the "clean side" of the filter device i made. I have it on the lowest setting and I made a sprayer bar from pvc with holes drilled in it for tank circulation.

Let me suggest what I think I should do with my 200Gal tank and you can pick it apart or tell me what I forgot.

1) Find a substrate, Sand? What will keep the plants rooted cuz I have plecos?
2) Plants I plan to use are java fern and anubias (Pleco and pretty recommendations?)
3) Find some kind of wood or rocks for fish to hide in, i have no idea here...
4) Find a sump tank 30-50 gal
5) I cant use a skimmer cuz that is saltwater only??? Yes/no? I guess ill just make a few different levels in a sump and put increasing density filter foam as I go along? Put the bioball things in the middle of the filtration setup somewhere?
6) Cycle the tank by planting everything and adding pure ammonia and testing till it goes away? I have a 1year ammonia meter on my tank now, i'd just get another one for the big guy and use that?
7) What other water qualities do I need to worry about? Currently I have watched the ammonia and nothing else, clean the rocks every week with 1/4 water change and add dechlorinator (smart start) to the new water before I put it in.
8) Do I need a heater?
9) I'm building LED light array as a project now... ~ 180W worth
10) More fish! What to get? Angelfish?

I have time to set it up and gather stuff on a budget because I have not yet closed on a house, so its just sitting in the garage, but I want to be ready.

Again thanks for reading and in advance for any help.
Pictures attached of my current tank. I use the water in the pump tank (10 gal) to isolate fish if they need it and in case the pump breaks :-( . Sometimes the barbs fight...

https://picasaweb.google.com/112267906351695505935/Aquarium


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## platies pwn (Nov 29, 2010)

nevermind.


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## buzz1167 (Sep 23, 2011)

Lol, that's awesome :sarcasm: what would you comment on? Send me a message instead.


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## platies pwn (Nov 29, 2010)

i will let the other members help you out there


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## elitesrock (May 4, 2011)

Welcome to fish forums! I really have no idea what to say so: HAI!


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## blindkiller85 (Jan 8, 2011)

buzz1167 said:


> 1) Find a substrate, Sand? What will keep the plants rooted cuz I have plecos?
> 2) Plants I plan to use are java fern and anubias (Pleco and pretty recommendations?)
> 3) Find some kind of wood or rocks for fish to hide in, i have no idea here...
> 4) Find a sump tank 30-50 gal
> ...



Ok well, here we go.

You're 25g that you have currently should have a heater as well. They are all tropical. If you don't already.

1) The problem with having pleco's and a planted tank is simple. They don't like sand, they end up eating it trying to suck algae. The plants that you're wanting to do fortunately don't need that much. Can simply bag the roots in a quality substrate in like a filter bag. 100 microns or so that you can get at chain pet stores. Bury it in the gravel and it will work, then you dose the plants as needed. Or of course, don't do that and do sand and get Siamese Algae eaters. Which you will need regardless with a planted tank to help keep your plants algae free. If they have algae on them, that means their light is reduced and can die.

2) I don't know exactly how the watts per gallon work with LED's. I don't know if it's the same. However, assuming it's the same as regular lights ( obviously not T8/12 ) you're just under 1 watt per gallon. Which is plenty to do the low light plants. See the list here and that will all be fine http://www.fishforums.com/forum/aquatic-plants/4069-beginner-plants-new-planted-tank-owners.html Also keep in mind that if you do too much plants, without enough livestock you will need to think about getting Co2. Even if you have a large livestock and alot of plants, it really helps with a full planted tank having Co2 injection.

3) You can get plenty of driftwood online, decorations from chain petstores, and rocks at where ever you want. But of course, the rocks need to be aquarium safe to not adjust pH other than how you want it and hardness. Getting stuff like that you should do, wood for pleco's particularly. But otherwise, it depends on how you plant it and how you want it. Because you could set it up that the plants give cover, and they do naturally anyways with just being in the tank.

5) You can't use a protein skimmer on FW. It just doesn't work. Using the bio-balls of course is good, with a polishing pad works. Basically you're bio-filtration on the bio-balls and solid elements on the pad. I would say having 2 foam blocks in front of the bio-balls. One coming right off the drop on the intake to the sump, and another to the entrance of the bio-balls.

6) I never cycled any other way than setting everything up (but I've never used live plants) and adding some fish and keeping a close eye on it. Personally, rather than buying a 1 year ammonia reader, get a kit. API liquid test kits are mediocre accuracy wise and in the middle of the prices as well. Yeah, it takes more work. But you'll save money in the long run. I've tested my tank probably about 60 times in 2 years now and I still have more that I can do.

7) When you're cycling there are 2 main elements that you watch. One of them is ammonia, and the other is nitrite. Because those two are the one's that tell you where you are in your cycle. Write them down, and post them. People will gladly help you without a doubt.

8) For any tropical fish you need a heater, period. Same goes for most plants too. They will do better in warmer waters. Pleco is one of them that needs the 70-80 degree temperatures (Farenheit). Platties are another, any algae eater is in the range of tropical fish. Same with the barbs. Same for your whole 25g for that matter.

10) Fish wise, I would look only at tropical. If you want to go cichlids in any means, then you're not wanting to do a planted tank, as they unroot them and destroy them. Most of the planted tanks are going to be community tropical fish. After that, you can google every fish as far as compatibility and ask here and we're all glad to help. It's a learning curve, that's for sure.

Angel fish you will have a problem with smaller fish such as neon and cardinal tetra size once the angels are full grown, as well as the those tetra's for example. These guys need a heater, they are tropical. Not to mention, you'd be surprised at how many of these fish hunt and are active even in the pitch black. So having all the cover you can need, won't always help keep them alive. But you won't have a problem with angels and planted tanks too, because they love the cover and plants.

If there's anything else, post it. And I'm sure someone else will reply to your initial post as well.


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## platies pwn (Nov 29, 2010)

you forgot that goldfish are cold water


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## blindkiller85 (Jan 8, 2011)

platies pwn said:


> you forgot that goldfish are cold water


They can and I have had them live in 75 degree water. They just prefer colder water, a lot. Couldn't do anything because my tanks naturally stay above 70 in my house minus the winter. I wasn't about to put a chiller on a 10g FW tank.


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## buzz1167 (Sep 23, 2011)

First, can you all see the pics? I cant for some reason...

Temperature could be something. My tank is currently at 78-80Deg at 2:04 AM and it probably wont get below 76 tonight. Around 4 or 5 pm it'll be back to 82+, in the winter I'll need a heater i guess. Let me try to rephase what you wrote so I understand.

1) Those plants are good, get some "socks" and throw them in with a minimal amount of "expensive" soil and use gravel for the main substrate.
----Might you suggest any other plants for variety that can handle the pleco or an angel?

2) Ive been doing lots of research with the plants and light requirements and I'm sure that if i don't have enough light, I can fix that because its super cheap to build in comparison to buying them...

5) Use a multistage mechanical filter with some bio balls or ceramics. 
-------Is the 300GPH pump enough for the big tank if I were to turn it up so it actually flowed that? Is there a rule of thumb for pump size?

6) Ok, so I dont feel so stupid now. That's how I did it, the goldfish first, then just added a few at a time over a month or so. I unfortunately did not think that the goldfish had an issue being warm so that's probably why he died, and the other one will too...
-------What do you like about the kit the most, just that it lasts longer?

10)------ I'm confused about your statement with angels, its a chichlid is it not? But its ok with plants?

I don't plan on having any fish smaller than the Platys/Barbs/Mollies >=2", is that large enough to keep the angelfish at bay? I also have a tiny rainbow shark that I forgot to put in my sig.

Im worried about the conflicting info I get online with barbs and angelfish, the gf and I really like the angelfish, but i want to get some more barbs also when i get the bigger tank going (I certainly don't want to get rid of the ones i have either...)

http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-species/freshwater-profiles/angelfish-2.aspx
Says angelfish dont deal with fin nippers or fast swimmers - I have barbs and bala sharks
http://www.fishchannel.com/fish-species/freshwater-profiles/tiger-barb-2.aspx
Says tiger barbs may pick at angelfish...

http://www.funfishtank.com/wp-content/freshwater-fish-compatibility-chart-for-you.jpg
Says angelfish and barbs and sharks get along... What gives?

Thanks so much for the complete reply blindkiller!


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

depending on the fish you want to keep in the 200gal you will need a couple of heaters


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Platies- you are not in the "introduction" section and he asked for opinions. When he asks you can answer. I would ask that you be nice about it and refrain from freaking  

Goldies won't like those high temperatures and in my opinion it is not nice to them to put them in it. You run the risk of lowering their chances of doing things like fighting infections and of being as active as they can be. It looks like the ones you had have died so the lesson would be not to get more uless you plan on keeping them in a cooler tank. 

Heater is always a good idea even for "cold water" fish because they still will do best with a stable temperature. 68-72 is good for most cold water fish and in the winter you would still want a heater to make sure the tank stays in that range. For a tropical tank the temps need to be between 75 and about 82 at the high end so yes you need a heater to pull that off. In a 200 gallon tank you could use 2 200 W heaters but personally I would go with 2 300 W heaters. I had 2 300's in my 100ga tank and they did a great job of keeping the temp without over working. In a tank that big 2 heaters are always a good idea, one for each side of the tank to keep it a uniform temperature. This takes some adjusting to make sure the heaters are working in synch, but it's not too hard. 

Straight gravel is fine. I would avoid sand with plants. I have found that with a planted tank it chokes off the oxygen and the plants don't grow much, and in some instances they shrink. I have a bunch of sad looking plants in my tank right now LOL. I am in the process of switching out sand for gravel. I hope that works LOL. I don't know that a filter bag will work as a place to put the plant roots as I would think it has the same problem... no room to grow the roots. But others may have done this and it's worked for them. I am not a plan guru by any means. I'm great at killing them so far 

Wood is great and there are many woods that would be great. I like Manzanita and Mopani, I also have a piece of bogwood (I think that's what it is). Plecos love the stuff, and in fact it's really good for their health.


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## P.senegalus (Aug 18, 2011)

buzz1167 said:


> First, can you all see the pics? I cant for some reason...
> 
> 10)------ I'm confused about your statement with angels, its a chichlid is it not? But its ok with plants?


Angelfish are cichlids and should be ok with plants 
and I can't see your pictures either.


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## buzz1167 (Sep 23, 2011)

Ok so I've done some searching on the subject and I think for 200gal, i want a 1000-1500GPH pump because they will loose flow rate with height and i'm shooting for 5x?
The tank has built in overflow boxes so I will be using a sump system. Can I put the heaters in the sump in the pump compartment?

Tell me if this is a good idea or if Im missing something.

Use flex hose for the output of the pump till i get to the top of the tank, then use pvc in the tank and run a line down the corner of the tank to the bottom and run down the length of the tank capping the end. Then I place T's every foot or so and put one of those adjustable output nozzle's Ive seen.
Cover all the pipe with gravel leaving just the output nozzles to be seen... 

Is this a problem for the fish? If I do it this way I think I can put the heaters in the sump and still be assured pretty decent temperature distribution and I can adjust the nozzles to get good circulation.

I'll try to repost the tank pictures and host them somewhere else...

https://picasaweb.google.com/112267906351695505935/Aquarium


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## blindkiller85 (Jan 8, 2011)

That's what 90% of everyone does is they put the heaters in the sump if they are running one. And you're right about getting even distribution with the nozzles and having a higher flow within the ranges you want to have.

I forgot about that and you got it right the last time that no, 300gph really isn't enough. and 1000gph would be plenty, but some people swear with over filtering. I just think it would whirlpool the fish at certain levels of gph rate. I run about 600gph on my 125g (Fluval FX5 canister). Just below 5x.

Plant wise with what obsidian said. I mean rocks are heavy enough that you could, and you probably could do rocks around it and no sock. It makes sense what he said about the roots growing out, but if you dose accordingly and don't have a nozzle pointed right at the plant, shouldn't be an issue as well with it coming up. And as long as you put enough gravel around the plant, should be fine enough to weigh it down. I guess I forgot that whole area of no sock when I posted that reply. Or I was too tired, I don't know. Whoops.

Angel's are cichlids, but they don't harm plants at all. There are a few that won't touch them, but 95% of cichlids tear plants up. The ones that come to mind that don't have issues with plants are Electric Blue Jack Dempseys, Angels, Rams that's all I know honestly haha.

Ok back to fish because I forgot about the combinations. In my experience yes bala sharks are semi-aggressive and fin nippers. Mine never had an issue with anything but their own species. Tiger barbs though, will probably annoy the crap out of angels. Not suggested to have them together really if you asked me. Why not get both types of fishes. Keep and add some more barbs to the 25g and put the angels in the big tank. 

Is that your tank temperatures naturally is 78-80 because that'd be awesome if that's how it settled out on its own summerwise. And then winter times you'll need as suggested of atleast 2 200w. I'm lucky because I only have a 125g and 1 300w heater, or I'm stupid and lazy. Either way, my tank stay's plenty warm in the winters.

As long as they are both full grown at the same time, there shouldn't be an issue. It comes into play when you have a full grown FW angel, and fish that are under 1" and have no girth to them. Mollies and platties have a lot more girth than any neon/cardinal will at full size. Should be fine, but of course they are fish. And you might end up with some dead when they are finally near their max size.

Oh and you're welcome for the indepth replies. I'm not the best at everything around here, but I think they would agree that I'm sufficient enough. And believe me, I'm 100% sure that most are annoyed with my, really really long replies haha.


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## buzz1167 (Sep 23, 2011)

How tall would you make a stand for a tank that's about 28" tall, I want to get it started this weekend. I got a tape measure out and I was thinking maybe like counter top height for when your standing up, say 36"? That would put the rim of the tank at eye level, which would look really nice I think... This would require me a small step stool to setup the tank (I.E. put the decorations/plants in the bottom) But I doubt that it would hinder everyday feeding.

Or maybe i should make it lower so the rim is at armpit level so its really easy to work on? Something more like 30-32"? It would also look better lower while you're sitting down. What do you guys have?

Thanks again


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## blindkiller85 (Jan 8, 2011)

The top of the tank on mine and most that are 100+ gallon tanks are in the vicinity of 48-52" tall total. The upside about being around armpit level for working on (which I agree with) is that you basically just submerge your arm into the whole tank to reach the bottom. Instead of having to stand on something to bend over, or having it lower and having to bend over. It has it's ups and it's downs. Viewing a tank that's around that height means that standing from about 4-6 ft away you can see everything without leaning over. You get right up next to the tank and you're having to bend over to look all the way in. Balance it how you like, but for cleaning purposes, it's better as you said around armpit height.


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## buzz1167 (Sep 23, 2011)

Thanks so much for your help guys, I'm gonna get started on the stand and I'm gonna look around for deals on craigslist for a sump tank while I wait. Also look into heater ans pumps more more. Any good suggestions for websites for nozzles, and other random accessories?


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