# Ammnoia Spiraling out of control?



## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Ok so my tank has been up for about 11 days. I am using a Freshwater Master Test kit. Right now the ammonia level is at about 3-4.0 ppm. There is no nitrite. I assume that the ammmonia is too high for the first bacteria to form. The only residents are 3 small zebra danios. The tank size is a 28g bowfront. The filter is a Whisper EX 30. Temp is a steady 80 degrees F. I started 6 days ago trying to correct this. My goal is to lower the ammonia to a level so that nature can take over so to speak.

Things i am guilty of but have stopped:
1) Overfeeding

Things I am doing to correct:
1) Feeding every other day. Very small amounts.
2) 30% WC every other day.
3) I removed the unused food from the sustrate by vacumning durring the first water change.
4) Added an aquaclear ammonia bio-bag to the filter(until the ammonia is in a managable range).


Is there anything else I can or should be doing? Please help!?!


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Nope, sounds like you are right on schedule. You need that ammonia for the first set of bacteria to grow. Very soon you should see the ammonia start to fall off and get readings of nitrite. The entire cycle could take 3-6 weeks depending on the w/c's (smaller w/c's = faster cycle BUT more danger to the fish).


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Oh whew! At what levels would you say that the ammonia is too high and is actually stopping the cycling from continuing? After todays WC it is down around 2.0 ppm.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso2k4 said:


> Is there anything else I can or should be doing? Please help!?!


Yes.

3ppm ammonia is lethal to fish and more drastic measures are necessary as something is wrong here.

Have you vacuumed the substrate subsequent to the first vacuuming and observed the waste stream?

Have you thoroughly rinsed your filtration media in RO water?

Have you observed the output from your filtration equipment to ensure that the flow is appropriate?

I also recommend that you cease feeding for a day and implement 50% daily WC's for three days.

With 3 small zebra danio's in a 28G tank you should have never observed an ammonia or nitrite concentration during cycling.

TR

BTW: per several of you comments you have done good in your research.


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

The first 2 times I vacuumed i pullled up un-eaten food matter. Now I pull up nothing. The water flow thru the filter is very good and it creates good movement around the tank. I have not cleaned the filter media. If I do not have RO water available will used tank water be sufficent, or can you recomend a suitable alternative?

Thanks!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso2k4 said:


> If I do not have RO water available will used tank water be sufficent


Yes.

Please ascertain the ammonia concentration prior to your next 50% water change and post the concentration.

Also please post with respect to the condition of the Zebra Danios.

TR


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

If i had to make a guess i would say the current Ammonia level is between 2 and 3.0 ppm. the colors of green on the card are very hard to discern even holding the test tube next to it under bright lights.

The danios are swiming around. The come to my finger if it gets near the waters surface. one has some nipping on his tailfin. I think he is a second less dominate male. As one of the others chases him from time to time then rejoins the 3rd. They traverse all of the water column. There are no sores, scaley patchs, spots on the eyes, and they seem energetic.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso2k4 said:


> If i had to make a guess i would say the current Ammonia level is between 2 and 3.0 ppm.


Prior to your 50% WC on Sunday the concentration of ammonia will be less than 0.5ppm, the population of ammonia digestion bacteria will be increasing exponentially and you will be observing a concentration of nitrites.

Please post should you not observe the above stated conditions.




iso2k4 said:


> the colors of green on the card are very hard to discern even holding the test tube next to it under bright lights.


Tell me about it!

The best method which I have ascertained is with the light behind me but I still have trouble comparing the hue of the test vial liquid with the hue on the chart.

TR


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Thank you for all your guildance and wisdom in these matters! I guess texans are really just southerners that call themselves texans.

=)


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

you can add a good water conditioner such as Prime or Biospira to help out with the problem. Neither will stop the cycle and the fish will sure feel better..


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

I went to the LFS. I told them to order me some Tetra Safestart. It's my understanding that is the marineland Bio-Spira. What is the difference between Cycle and Prime? I swear i do get a little overwhelmed looking at all those bottles on the shelf. Furthermore when I read the labels they say about the same thing. Are those just 2 different brands of the same bacteria?

Thanks!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Prime is not bacteria, its a chemical that makes ammonia less toxic to fish.


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Ah so Prime would be a replacement for API stresscoat and say something like Ammo-lock. Gotcha.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso:

Glad that em posted and note that she said Prime as this is the product which most folks who have tried several use.

Also please note that the label indicates the product removes chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and nitrites.

It does not. The constituents of the product only bind these molecules such that they are not toxic or lethal to fish. The use of this product does not substitute for your 50% daily WC's.

TR


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Yah i was editing my reply when my boss walked in. I meant to compare stability to cycle i think.

Also If i am using API stress coat as a declorinator. Shouldnt i just move to the Seachem line. It seems to me that Prime does so much more, dechlorination, ammonia binding, nitrite binding, it promotes healthy slime coat, and reduces heavy metals. Is there any downside to using prime as the be-all for water treament? 

And I havnt let anthing keep me from doing WC. My Ammonia was at 1 ppm last night. =)


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I haven't found any downside to Prime. You use less and it does more. There isn't anything wrong with the API products, I have used them with success, but I am more familiar with the SeaChem stuff and I like the SeaChem website for explaining their stuff. You do want something that "detoxifies" ammonia and nitrite when you are cycling with fish. Any of those products will increase the odds of your fish coming through unharmed.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Stabilty is a bacteria product. Its not an "instant-cycle" like bio-spira is supposed to be, but it does help. Cycle had a bad rep a few years back for having the wrong cultures (it actully took longer to cycle the tank with cycle than without). They have since reformulated, but I haven't tried it myself.


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Ammonia is now at < 1ppm. With this 50% WC I conditioned with Prime and Stabilty. I used the dose for a fulltank. Fish are frisky and constanly hunting the bottom for food. I tested for nitrite for shiggles. Nada. But i am much less worried than I was. I hope to see my ammonia start falling by itself and nitrite to start up. 

I would like to thank this forum, its users, and especially Em and Jones.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso:

Things may be looking up but "s....t" happens: I have been there, done that and got the tee shirt.

Please post your ammonia and nitrites' concentrations prior to your WC tommorrow night.

TR


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

i have had amazing results with the Stability bacteria in a bottle! be aware that if you are doing it daily as they recommend you likely will not have any nitrate readings! I have not had them until after I stop using the Stability.
I have contacted Seachem about this and their answer was" well the product is doing what it is supposed to do."
It is also a good product to use when you are adding new fish to the tank. I just used it when I added 6 new platies to my tank. I would have expected an ammonia spike for a couple of days, but I added the Stability and there is not a spike of anyhting.
I also use it when I do a major gravel cleaning and filter cleaning on the same day.
I like to check stuff out with my test kits and so far I have been exceedingly pleased with the product.


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Sorry i have been so long in replying. My girlfriend had a stomach virus over the weekend so i was taking care of her. 



> Please post your ammonia and nitrites' concentrations prior to your WC tommorrow night.


I was unable to do a WC saturday. I did test my water first thing sunday morning and to my surprise the ammonia levels had went down. They were at .25ppm. I did a Nitrite and Nitrate test. Both of those were 0. Based on the ammonia reading I did not change any water. I will post updated levels this evening.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso2k4 said:


> Sorry i have been so long in replying. My girlfriend had a stomach virus over the weekend so i was taking care of her.


iso:

np: I have one and being "Nancy Nurse" to help them (as much as they help us) is important.




iso2k4 said:


> I was unable to do a WC saturday.
> I did test my water first thing sunday morning and to my surprise the ammonia levels had went down. They were at .25ppm. I did a Nitrite and Nitrate test. Both of those were 0. Based on the ammonia reading I did not change any water. I will post updated levels this evening.


Just as well as you did not.

We are cooking with gas now and this happened earlier than I had anticipated.

You did good!

We are "back on track" here and I am very glad that your zebra danio's survived the ordeal.

Please start 25% weekly WC's for two weeks and keep your feeding to a minimum required for your fish and please do this for two more weeks.

You may, but probably not, observe an ammonia concentration but will not observe a nitrite or nitrate concentration.

Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates will be present;
ammonia and nitrite digestion bacteria will be growing in your biological media; but
our rudimentary test kits will not indicate their presence.

Then please post your proposed stocking and we can "map out" the algorithm for attainment.

TR


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Update: I will be doing my WC today.

Current levels:
Ammonia: 0ppm ( it barely turned )
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm

Jones: Did you see my thread on my proposed stocking?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso2k4 said:


> Update: I will be doing my WC today. ...


iso: you did note in one of my posts that when this plateau is attained 25% weekly WC's are appropriate.




iso2k4 said:


> Jones: Did you see my thread on my proposed stocking?


Could you provide a link please?

TR


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Jones: Here is the link to my proposed stocking thread. Yes I did read this and only changed 25% of my water. This is my first WC since last sunday.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

iso2k4 said:


> Jones: Here is the link to my proposed stocking thread. Yes I did read this and only changed 25% of my water. This is my first WC since last sunday.


iso:

Thanks for the link and I will post there now also (although I will not be of much help).

I am certain that you aware of the following but will verbalize "just in case".

Next Sunday your biological filtration media will be populated with ammonia and nitrite digestion bacteria which are sufficient for your current stocking and feeding.

The achievement of your ultimate stocking and feeding protocol must be done slowly or else you will once again observe a concentration of ammonia and/or nitrites (ie. add a group of one species with an appropriate increase in feeding, wait fourteen days ....)

TR


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## iso2k4 (Oct 20, 2008)

Understood.


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