# Hey all ! just got my black moore goldfish today! please come in



## lamonsas

Hey guys, i just got my black moore goldfish today and its so nice and preety, awesome fish IMO , i have it in a 10 Gallon tank, the starter kit that can be bought from petland discounts , i have put blue gravle along another rainbox gravle inside nicely, i have put a "No Fishing!" toy decoration kindda thing which is really cool  and i have put 3 artifical plants there which are cool i guess, i have put stress coat and the other coat which i forgot the name of, i got the sample 1 time use that u put when u setup the aquarim the first time so i didnt buy them yet so i dont remember what the second coat is called, anyway i have also a hood with yellow lights, looks great.i have a few question, the black moore goldfish is the only fish i have right now, he is kindda lonely there as far as i can see so i want to get him another orange goldfish in his size on friday, thta will be okay right? i was told to give the black moore goldfish food only in the morning, im feeding him the food that i got with the kit, goldfish food that it, the small leaves kinda food, i heared taht they like lettuuce too, is that correct? what else do they like? and do i have to chop it real real small so they can it it u kno? and 1 more question, is it ok if i turn on the light at night, i mean does that affect the fish'es vision, i assume it does? or should i just live the light on in the night and turn off in the day?

please assist and thx for having me on this lovely forum!


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## emc7

First, don't get another fish. 1 is enough for a tank that size and he will outgrow it. Next read the Nitrogen cycle sticky on this forum. Its really important not to overfeed during "cycling". Also water changes are a must. You can try lettuce the size of large flakes, but if he doesn't eat it in 1 day take it out of the tank. Give your fish 8-10 hours of light a day. It doesn't have to coincide with the true day, so when you get home it can be "morning". A timer is an easy way to keep it consistant which will make him more comfortable.


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## lamonsas

so i can just leave the light on in the night and turn it off in the morning, yea? where is the nitrogen cycle sticky? i couldnt locate it, 1 more thing i want to ask is, i only put food for him in the morning when i wake up yea, i dont feed him anymore after that till the next morning ? btw, the women at petland discounts told me that i shouldnt under any means get another fish for ATLEAST a week and that after that i can add 1 and only 1 more fish to the tank and thats what i want to do, 2 fish, this black moore i have and a normal orange goldfish, that'll be ok right? i really dont want only 1 fish, btw the women from petland also told me she has a very good tool which is 6.99$ that makes cleaning the tank easy, i ll be buying that soon probably, about the 2 coating products, the stress coat and the other one, i have to put that every time i clean the tank right?, when should be the next time to clean the tank, the women from petland told me in like 2 weeks, and is there some other kind of a product that i should add to the water?


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## bscman

NITROGEN CYCLE BASICS:
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/7125-nitrogen-cycle-basics.html

10 gallons is a bit small for goldfish. They are quite messy fish, and can get fairly large. I know I wouldn't feel comfortable putting two black moores in a 10 gallon--heck, I think a 20g would be my minimum for only ONE of them...but lets face it, ideal isn't always possible.
You can get by with the 10g, if you keep the water clean, but do NOT add any more fish!

ESPECIALLY a "cheap orange goldfish" as those cheap feeder goldfish can easily reach a foot in length as adults. A 10g tank will be MUCH too small, will stunt his growth, and evetually lead to his death.

"Rule of thumb" for goldfish is about 20 gallons for the first fish, and 10 gallons for each additional...so 30g would be good for two goldfish...but this only works for fancies, like your black moore.
This is NOT the case with comets or "feeder" goldfish, as they need a MUCH larger tank....and I mean MUCH larger.

As for cleaning the tank...get a small or medium size siphon and vacuum the gravel out about once a week (IMO). Also, and this is especially important since your tank has not yet cycled, keep up on your water changes... Let too much of the bad stuff build up, and it will permanantly injure/kill your fish...NOT a happy thought.
A test kit is a must (checking ammonia/nitrites/nitrates)

Do NOT do a complete cleaning of your tank (meaning, don't rinse the gravel...scrub the plants...etc)...a complete cleaning will wipe out all those healthy and helpful bacteria that break down the icky ammonia and such. A complete cleaning will re-start the nitrogen cycle and is VERY stressful (deadly) to your fish.

As for the light...
Is the room your tank is in well lit with NATURAL light? Many of my tanks don't even have lights since the rooms they stay in are usually well lit in the daytime (windows, sunlights, etc).
You don't want your poor fishy in direct sunlight, but you probably don't need the light on all the time either....especially since all your plants are fake. I vote only have the lights on in the evenings to enjoy your fishy better! Also, you mention "yellow lights" in the hood...I'm assuming incandescent. You can get more efficient, whiter "Flourescent" lights to put in your hood at your local pet store/walmart even...they'll use less energy and won't look so "dingy."

Above all....congrats on your new aquarium!!! You'll be addicted in no time!!!
I have TONS of goldfish, and TONS of tanks...a 40g, 30g, 25g, 15g, 10g, 2.5g, 1g, and a 100+ gallon pond... probably about 30 fish total. Some of my "feeder" goldfish that were bought late last summer (which I rescued from certain death) are now approaching the 7" mark...HUGE! 
Enjoy watching your goldy grow!


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## lamonsas

thanks alot for that great reply bscman! i heared about the vacum u mentioned , thats what the women told me too, she also said i only need to change 25% of the watever every 3 weeks, with my black moore goldfish ONLY that is, if i get another fish which will be my last fish it will probably need to be cleaned in 1 and a half - 2 weeks.. so i read the thread u linked me too , i didnt understand much, so right now my water is getting a change and gets all the things that the fish need? in about 2 weeks i will vacume it with the tool i'll buy from petland, i will have to add the special 2 coats yea? how much of each btw, does it like go by drops? if so how many drops of each coat, well the coats i got with my kit were only 1 use so u just drop the whole coat inside the water , i did that 8 hours and i let the filter work for 8 hours before i bought my fish. i bought a net with it too of course , a big one, btw just for refrence, when the time to clean comes, i take the fish out and put him like in the sink? full of water of course, then i clean the tank and then put him back? btw is there some other like recommanded stuff that will be good for my fish just like the stress coat and the other coat? oh and 1 more, what kind of food can i give him other than choped lettuce and the goldfish food? food that sinks that is? i heared shrimp but i dont buy shrimp usually, what else?


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## oliesminis

when you do a water change leave him in the tank and just take out 25% of the water and clean the sides. you dont need to scrub it each time. 
also 8 hours before you buy the fish ? a nitrate cycle can take over a month and doesnt happen in 8 hours. mine took 3 weeks and i still had high nitrates. do understand we are not moaning but we want the best for your fishy friend. he may make it but puting him during a cycle is not good

:fish:


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## bscman

Again, you DO NOT need to do a *complete* cleaning!

Basically, the nitrogen cycle works like this.
You put your fish in the tank, it eats and leaves waste in the water. This waste brings high levels of ammonia into the water--ammonia is DEADLY to fish! You want NO ammonia in your tank!
In due time, bacteria will start to grow that will break down the ammonia in the water (VERY good thing!) and turning it into nitrite (which is still harmful to fish)...the good news, however, is bacteria will also break down the nitrite into a much less harmful nitrate.

This whole process tankes time (usually several weeks) where the ammonia must first build up to a fairly high level (dangerous to your fish), then the bacteria starts to grow and colonize...the ammonia levels start to go down a bit and nitrite levels start to go UP...(still hard on your fishy!)...but eventually enough bacteria will build up enough that they can adequately break down the ammonia and nitrite quickly. 

All that is left is the nitrates, the byproduct of the process. These nitrates which are now left in the water are the reason you do water changes. While nitrates aren't all that bad (in low numbers) if left to build to high levels, it can be a bad thing. So by doing partial water changes (say 20%) you are in turn actually LOWERING the nitrate level by 20% as well! That is a GOOD thing!

The lady at the fish store is WRONG -- not all too uncommon. It seems like there aren't many people that understand the nitrogen cycle and how it works! Also remember, they are there to SELL fish...the more they sell,the more money they make...so if they give you *not quite correct* advice, and your fish die...you'll be back for more, and they make more money. Listen to the advice here, given by "experts" and successful enthusiasts.

The first 6 weeks or so of a freshly set up tank is the worst, most stressful, and most deadly time for your fish--also known as "new tank syndrome" where all the new fish you buy for your new tank keep dying.

*In other words, for the first 6 weeks or so (until you tank is done cycling) DO NOT do a complete cleaning of the tank and DO NOT add any more fish.* In fact, do NOT do a *complete* cleaning of your tank EVER, unless your fish all die of disease.

A complete cleaning of everything in the tank will kill off all the GOOD bacteria that has started to grow--a VERY bad thing. That bacteria NEEDS to build up and colonize in order to successfully break down the wastes your fish leave. No bacteria = high ammonia levels = DYING FISH. This bacteria will grow in your substrate (gravel), on your fake plants, on your decorations, and in your filter media. If you clean all those things, you remove all the bacteria, and when you put your fish back into the tank the ammonia spikes and the fish gets sick again.

Also, adding more fish while a tank is still cycling is bad. More fish in the tank = more ammonia in the tank = more dangerous ammonia levels (deadly). Wait until the cycle is over, and you have all that good bacteria to break down the ammonia...then it is safe to add more fish (slowly, not all at once)

*However*, in your case, I wouldn't recommend any new fish...since goldfish require larger tanks and are very messy. An overstocked tank means more stress to the fish, and more work for you to keep the water clean.


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## bscman

While your tank is new, and still cycling, it is very important to keep a close eye on both your fish, as well as your water parameters.

With a fish in your tank, you are somewhat stuck between a rock and a hard spot. You don't want any ammonia in the tank, because that is harmful to your fish...however, without any ammonia there is no food for bacteria to begin to colonize. Luckily, goldfish are pretty hardy and can handle being in a little ammonia.

Here are my thoughts...
The longer your goldfish is in the same water, the more ammonia will build it. The higher the concentration, the more deadly it is. How do you get around this? Give him fresh water from time to time. Also, vacuum out the gravel from time to time...and DO NOT OVERFEED your fish. If you're using floating pellets, one or two pellets a day is plenty. Excess food in the tank creates even more ammonia.

While the tank is cycling, I'd do 10-15% water changes every 2-3 days. This will help make sure he has some fresh water to swim in, and dilute the harmful stuff to a more tolerable level.
At the same time, however, since with water changes you are also removing ammonia...it will prolong the time it takes for your tank to cycle. BUT, at least it's less harmful for your fish--so he'll be more healthy!

To do the 15% water changes, just siphon out some water from the tank into a bucket or a sink (if nearby). 

Also, you'll want to vacuum out the gravel to remove the excess waste from the tank...I would do this every OTHER time you do a water change--every 5-6 days. 
You'll need a gravel vacuum/siphon like the lady at the pet store mentioned. It doesn't have to be pefectly cleaned out, just get the big chunks--they'll be obvious. There should be instructions on the siphon to figure out how it works--or just ask here if you're stumped.

During the water changes/gravel vacuuming, just leave your fish in the tank. He'll be fine--after all, you're leaving MOST of the water in there.

When you are ready to add the fresh water to the tank, you'll need to treat it before you put it in. Tap water contains several different types of minerals which aren't a bad thing, however, tap water is also treated with chlorine and chloramine. These two chemicals are deadly to fish.
You'll need to go to the pet store and buy a bottle of chlorine/chloramine remover to make the water safe. 
You only need to add enough treatment to treat the fresh water you're adding (so in this case, about 1.5 gallons...which is usually only a few drops-read the instructions).

There are SEVERAL different types, of which I won't comment on which one to buy. Personally, I use Jungle Lab's "Start Right" which removes chlorine, chloramine, and adds a stress coat to the water that--supposedly--helps with the slime coat on your fish. 
Why do I use this? Well, I came across a few large bottles of it for a mere $0.76 each...it was TOO cheap to pass up. Works great for me, though.

After about 6 weeks, when your tank is ending the cycling phase and is becoming stable (and the good bacteria is colonized) you can relax with your water changes...and instead of doing them once every two or three days, only do them once a week.
IMO, it's better to do a 10% water change once a week than it is to do a 30% water change once every three weeks like the lady at the store told you. 
Doing infrequent, but LARGE water changes, puts your fish under a lot on un-needed stress. Remember he LIVES in that water, so any big changes with the PH, TEMPERATURE, and all that other stuff, can be a big SHOCK to him!

Small water changes more frequently are MUCH less stressful, and your fish will be much happier.

Here are a few more thoughts:
Your filter is one of the key places this "good bacteria" lives. Swapping out your established filter media with a new filter can throw your tank into another mini-cycle...because you just threw out a lot of that good bacteria you NEED.
Instead of just throwing it out, rinse it out in the water from your water change! Get the big chucks of ick off the filter, and just put it back in. DO NOT rinse it off it tap water--the chlorine in the tap water will kill the bacteria. Only rinse it off with the water change water you just drained from the tank.

If you decide you MUST have a new filter insert, place the new filter in the tank for a week or so. Just hang it from the edge of the glass, or lay it on the bottom. This way it can start to colonize with some bacteria before you remove your old filter insert. 
The goal here is to keep enough bacteria in the tank so you don't have to go through the cycling process again!

Also, if you decide you need to clean off your plants or decorations (due to algae build up or whatever) only clean one or two at a time...if you clean them all at once, again, you'll be removing a lot of that good bacteria. So just clean one plant with each water change...next time clean another....etc.

Most of all, just remember that the longer your fish has to swim in the same icky water...the less happy and healthy he will be. Remember, in the wild they have a LOT of fresh, free flowing water to live in...not just 10gallons in your living room...all the fresh, flowing water will dilute their wastes and they can live a happy, healthy, waste free life. 
Falling behind on tank maintenance--especially when you have messy fish like goldfish, or an over stocked tank (too many fish), can be a deadly mistake...


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## bscman

Oops, looking at your last response I realized there are a few more things I should address...

DO NOT let your new tank go three weeks before you do a gravel cleaning and a water change...you'll have so much waste and ammonia built up in the tank, you'll probably be signing your fish's death certificate. You'll need to do it more often than that--ESPECIALLY in a new, uncycled tank.

When cleaning your tank decorations, the glass, etc...do NOT use harsh chemicals...no dish soap, no windex, etc...A rinse in warm water is usually sufficient. Again, there isn't much reason to go all out and clean everything--especially all at once. 

If you have to take your fish out of the tank (for whatever reason)...fill a bowl, bucket, etc with water FROM YOUR TANK--then you can put your fish in that container. DO NOT put him in tap water, or directly into fresh/treated water. It'll shock him, and it's NOT healthy. Only use water he's used to, from the tank he lives in.

DO NOT put him in the sink, either. The kitchen sink is usually the dirtyest surface in your home--usually even worse than the toilet! Putting a fish in your sink could cause him to contract so creepy disease or infection.

As for foods...he'll be fine using goldfish pellets and the OCCASIONAL piece of lettuce (once a week, or less often). 
I have goldfish pellets, goldfish flakes, freeze-dried bloodworms, algae wafers, and occasionally a veggie treat for my goldfish.
They get the floating pellets the most, almost every day. Once or twice a week I'll substitue the pellets with flakes--they love flakes! Everything else I use as a treat. 
I give each tank 1 agae wafer a week. It seems like only a few of them like the agae wafers...some of them won't have anything to do with them, others love the wafers. They get bloodworms once or twice a month--they eat them, but aren't crazy for them. They get a fresh veggie treat maybe twice a month.
I feed my goldies twice a day...but not much at each feeding. They are pretty big (5-7" in length) so they can eat a lot. In your case, feeding once a day is plenty--again, probably just one pellet...you don't want uneaten food rotting in your tank.

Did the store teach you how to acclimate fish?
You don't just take your new fish and toss him in the tank, you have to get him used to your water. There are a lot of ways to do this, but basically...

Your new fish comes in a back full of fish store water...most likely of a different temperature, PH, etc.
The first step is to even out the temperatures. 
Let the bag (with the fish in it) float in your tank for 15 minutes so the temperatures can even out -- better yet, would be to use a different/clean container...that bag could be dirty and you don't want anything icky getting into your tank.

Once the temps are evened out, open up the bag with the fish in it and add a little water from your tank into the bag. Continue to let it float in the tank. After 10-20 minutes, do this again....and again...until the water in your bag is like 80% tank water, 20% water from the store...By then he's used to your water, and you can net the fish and add him to your tank. The process should take a minimum of an hour to do...you don't want to SHOCK the fish by putting him into strange water.
Also, don't dump the fish store water into your tank, it could contain some nasty parasites or something that are best left OUT of your tank!


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## lamonsas

Thanks alot for that greatful info bscman! First of, here is a picture of my tank i took today: http://rapidshare.com/files/34553109/05312007163.jpg.html (choose "free" and it will take u to the download page to download the picture)

Ok so what i have right now is the following, like in the picture, 4 fake plants, 1 filter and the gravle basically, so i will buy the vacum tommorow, its like 10 bucks i belive and no i wont add any more fish for few good weeks.. i will suck like 10% of the water with the vacum and then i will add fresh water to the tank and fill in the amount i took out with the vacum, right? oh and i will also clean ONLY 1 thing at a time so for example this sunday probably when i clean my tank i will only clean 1 plant this time, the next time i will clean a different plant and so on until i clean all my plants(4 plants) and then i will clean the gravle? or should i clean the gravle a little bit in every clean and just 1 plant/decoration at a time? btw i didnt buy lettuce yet so i cant try if he likes it but i went to petland today again and they ahve seeweed there and she said he will like it, i didnt buy it tho, i might be it if u guys say its good, is it good for the fish? btw what do u mean when u say flakes? do they sell these in petland and what brand do u recommand if theres any specific, oh btw about the cleaning, i will buy tommorow the 2 coats u know, the stress coat and the other coat.. she told me to put HALF a spoon from each coat everytime i put fresh water, meaning when i do a water change, oh btw , right now the only food i feed my fishy is "goldfish food", its like small leaves, i just take some with my two fingers and put it in the tank, the float at first but later on they just sink, what food is good for the fish that he likes and sinks so it will be on the ground of the tank for example, i would guess shrimp but i dont buy shrimp so thats not a real option. oh and i forgot to ask 1 more thing, is it ok that im turning off the aquarium light when i go to sleep? there is no light at a;; in the room when i turn the aquarium light off, does it matter for the fish? is what i just said correct?


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## bscman

Let me be a little more specific...maybe you weren't paying attention in my last posts.

The three biggest mistakes the first time aquariums tend to make are:

1. Over stocking the tank (too many/too large of fish for the size of tank)
2. Over-cleaning. If you thoroughly clean everything, you remove all that good bacteria, your tank will never cycle, and your fish will always be in water that has high levels of ammonia--they can only live in those conditions for so long until they DIE.
3. Over feeding. Only feed enough food for your fish to consume in about 3 minutes time. After three minutes, remove all excess food. That food you leave will rot and cause excess ammonia (TOXIC).

You don't need to clean your plants right now, next week, or realistically even next month. Only clean them when they LOOK really dirty. Then, don't clean them all at once--when you clean them, you are removing that helpful bacteria (which you don't want to do)...So only clean one at a time--maybe one per week. This way, you don't wipe out the WHOLE colony of bacteria but just a little bit.
(Enter cleaning the tank too much!) If you remove all that bacteria, ammonia levels spike and your fish dies. Plain and simple. This is a common mistake for "newbies"

The same is true for the gravel. A simple gravel vacuum (with a siphon) is more than sufficient. Don't remove gravel and rinse it out. The siphon will get out the big chunks of waste, and the decaying food that is missed...the good bacteria should pretty much take care of the rest.

IMO, do nothing more than frequent water changes and occasionally vacuum out the gravel. Don't take anything out of the tank to clean it, don't rinse out the gravel, and don't put in new filter media....Give your tank several weeks for the nitrogen cycle to complete!!! *I CANNOT EMPHASIZE THIS ENOUGH!!!*

As for the light...it's fine to turn them off at night. Fish need their rest, too. Remember, goldfish are found in nature. They live in sunlight and moonlight just like everything else...so having the light off at night is natural for them, just as it is for you.

DO NOT add any more fish. You tank is full...in fact, you have a fish that is too big for that tank. That is NOT just my opinion--ask any serious goldfish enthusiast and there will tell you ANY goldfish should have at least 20 gallons of water (for each fish!). Adding more fish will just make your water less inhabitable, cause more stress, and eventually end up stunting and/or killing your fish. NOT GOOD!
An overstocked tank is MUCH harder to take care of, and keep healthy, than a tank that is under stocked or appropriately stocked.

The advice at local pet shops is hit and miss. Again, they're mostly there to make money--sure there are some good, honest, helpful shops out there...but don't expect the best advice from a large chain store. Why not? Because if your fish dies, you come back and buy more fish. They win, you lose. If their advice is not the best, and your fish end up sick or dead...you come back to buy medications or more fish. They win, you lose. They want you to come back and buy more, plain and simple.

If you want good, solid advice...talk to some local enthusiasts that have been successfully been keeping fish for a long period of time, or find a good, honest, successful, mom and pop type fish store..they will tell you the TRUTH about fish care. They have experience the good and the bad, and can really help you AND YOUR PETS out.

I think I've pretty much laid it out on the table. I'm just trying to help. If you choose to disregard my advice and add more fish, or over-clean your tank because you'd rather listen to the lady at the chain store, just trying to make a living, then so be it. 

I wish you and your goldy the best, and hope you can both live long, healthy lives. :fish:


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## lamonsas

Thx for the post and i listen to each and every word ur telling me  i wont be adding any fish at all, in my last post i asked also , what do u mean by flake treats? and also they sell seedweed in petland, is it any good for my fish? btw i will do a water change with the vacum tommorow, i will put the vacum in, i wont be taking the fish out, and i will vacum the gravel a little bit, i wont touch the plants for now and i will suck in around 10% of the water and then add 10% new water from the sink as usuall, that will be good right? i will keep on doing the water change every 5 day and ill be basically just cleaning out the big chunks from the gravl, nothing major , correct? and i only feed him in the morning a few leaves from the gold fish bottle, can i give him treat like in the evening such as a little piece of lettuce or the seed weed, is the seed weed any good? its like 4$ in petland, btw i want to get the flakes u guys are talkin about because u guys' fish seem to love them according to ur coments


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## bscman

Sounds like a good plan!

As per the flakes...
I've actually got 2 different brands...why? I dont know, they both look pretty much the same -- One made by wardley, the other my tetrafin. I can't tell you which brand is best, as my fish love them both and again they seem pretty much the same.
Most of aquarium "kits" that come with food samples include a small sample of goldfish flakes, so it's likely the stuff you have is the same stuff we're talking about.

As for the seaweed, I can't really help ya there. Never tried it.
If you've got romaine lettuce (not iceberg), cucumber, or zucchini you can try feeding those to your goldies. Some will eat peas as well--just take the skin off the peas first, and squish them between your fingers. Any of those would be cheaper than $4 for seaweed ;-) 

Just make sure you remove the excess food that is not eaten after a few hours, otherwise it'll start to rot and mess up the tank.


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## lamonsas

u mean take the uneaten food with the vacum right? ok so i will buy the vacum tommorow from petland discounts  and i will go over the gravle briefly and pick up the waste my goldie did and take out like 10% of the water and fill in the tank with 10% of fresh new water, ill do this every week, i will only clean the decorations when they look "dirty", btw i have 1 question that i am unsure of, i remember the name of tthe other water thing, so the first one is stress coat and the other is stress Zyme, i need to put the stress coat every time i clean my water with the vacum right? just like i will do tommorow, probably half a spoon or 2 drops depends on which brand i will buy(im not sure yet), now about the stress enzyme, do i put that too everytime i clean my water? thats basically the thing i wasnt sure about , btw i asked the guy in petland what food my fishie eats and he said my fish can eat the flakes of course, i asked him about the seaweed and he said that that wont be a good idea because my fish is not big enough and to basically only give him the flakes until he grows a little, i will try to give him a little piece of regualr lettuce that i buy from the vegetable store and u said cucumber, which i actually have in my house right now  how do i give it to him , like cut it very small and give him like 1 of these pieces or maybe 2 of these pieces, and btw i do have the bradley brand flakes u have too! i mentioned 1 thing, behind the bradley flakes box it says there that fish should be fed multiple times a day, well i only give my fishy some flakes in the morning(8 AM) and he goes right away and eats them hehe, should i feed him in the evening too a little flakes or no need for now until he grows a little? plus my water hasent finished its cycle yet so giving him alot of food is not such a good idea atm ,right? btw about the cucumber, i just drop a small piece of cucumber in the water, right? and he will eventually see it and eat it right? if it sinks and i see he doesnt eat it i will just suck it after a few hours with the vacum right? and regarding giving him a pea, i just wash it with warm water, peel the skin of the pea off and squash it with my fingers and then just put it in the water and he will eventually eat it? yea?


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## bscman

The stress coat and zyme coat stuff really doesn't need to be added with your 10-15% water changes (FWIW, you CAN change more that 10% if you like...whatever you choose, make it a routine and stick to it--this will keep the water somewhat consistent)

The only thing you really need to add to the fresh water, during a partial water change, is a chlorine/chloramine treatment. Or, if you really wanted to you could do the water changes with bottled water instead of tap water--you have to be careful here, though, as not all bottled water really is "natural spring water" a lot of it is just bottled tap water. We have a bottling plant here locally that pulls water from fire hydrants to put in their bottles :-x So that would still need treated for chlorine/chloramine.
(This just confirms that bottled water is unneccesary and a waste of $)

I would only add the stress coat stuff if you plan to change like 75%+ of your water, or if you're adding new fish to the tank. The stress coat is only there to make new fishes acclimation to new tanks a little less stressful. It's not necessary when doing small water changes...it'd pretty much just be a waste of $$$ in my opinion.

As for the cucumber...take a small slice, without any of the skin, and microwave it for like 30 seconds. Let it cool and just drop it in the tank and watch. It might take a while for your goldy to figure out its food, and it might not even like it. After a few hours remove the left-overs. If he doesn't eat it, no reason to give it to him again.
I've heard some people dropping cucumber in w/o microwaving it, but I always do...heard it was a good thing to do a while back - better safe than sorry  
As for lettuce, romaine lettuce is much healthier and better than iceberg...just so you know.
As for peas, you're right on the money.

Pay close attention to how your fish is acting (it's be a good idea to get a water test kit). If ammonia and such gets too high, do a water change so he doesn't get sick and die. If he starts acting sluggish or sick, try a water change and see if he gets better. The cycling process is VERY hard on fish.


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## lamonsas

i see, so i need to forget about the stress coat and stress zyme at all, right? unless i do a 75% water change, however tommorow when i will change 10% of the water i will need to add chlorine/chloramine medicine, wel not medicine i just cant find the right word for that. what brand of the chlorine/chloramine product do u use? and how much do i have to put in the water since im doing a 10% water change? btw ill be good with a 10% water change every 5 days right? every week that is, and u sure i dont need the stress coat and stress zyme at all?


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## lamonsas

oh i just read about the stress coat and looks like i was confused, stress coat removes chlorine and chloramine, so tommorow when i will replace like 10 percent of the water with the vacum and put 10% of new tap water, i will add stress coat to the water(amount according to the directions on the product for a 10 gallon tank of course, right? i do not understand when i should use the stress zyme however, please assist me, i am askin this because this is most likely the last part i need to know in order for me to maintaine my aquarium, every week i will vacum the gravel and take out 10% of the water from the tank with my vacum and replace it wil tap water, then i will add stress coat, the amount thats needed for a 10 gallon tank according to the directions, am i correct on that part? and do i need to add stress zyme as well every time i change the 10% water? if not , when do i add stress zyme?


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## bscman

The only thing I add to my water during a water change is chlorine/chloramine remover. If your stress coat does those things as well as a few other things that's probably just fine--go ahead and use it--it shouldn't hurt anything.

Also, when adding the chlorine treatment...
You do NOT need to treat 10 gallons of water. You only need to treat the new, fresh water you are adding to your tank. So if you're adding 1.5 gallons of fresh water, you only need enough treatment to treat 1.5gallons of water. Read your directions. It seems like many of them say "One scoop or capful for every 10 gallons" so in this case, you could just guess how much would sufficiently treat 1.5 gallons...so like 1/8 of a capful or so.

As for the other thing, I really doubt you need it...
Out of curiousity, what is the brand and name of product so I know what you are talking about exactly? Maybe that would help me give you a little better advice.

Otherwise, I think you're set. 
Once a week PWC (partial water changes) via gravel vac (siphon) and treat the new water before you add it. It wouldn't hurt to change more water, like 15-20% too, if you feel like it. There is no such thing as too clean of water.

I should add, try and get the new fresh water close to the same temp as the tank...too hot or cold can shock the fish and stress him out.

Best of luck


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## lamonsas

the brand of my stress coat and sress zyme is from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (API), i did the vacum with the siphon vacuma and then i added tap water to the tank and then i added stress coat and stress zyme, i had a little difficulity with the siphon vacum btw, i mean i was moving it up and down and it was like geting the waste up in the water i think it sucked some but not all, is there some trick to this or anything to make it more sufficiently, btw i thought it was also sucking the water but i was wrong, anyway i just tooked a bowl and a bucket and thats how i took the water out and then i just added tap water with bowl, filling in the amount of water i took out with fresh new tap water and like i said then i added stress coat and stress zyme,


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## bscman

Well, there is a bit of a trick to get a siphon started...
TO make it easy, put one end under the water in tank and suck on the other end until water starts flowing...then put the end u sucked on into a bucket (that is below the level of the tank) and let gravity do the work.


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## lamonsas

i dont understand, can u please be more specific? btw i didnt relize that the instructions were for a complete 10 gallon water replacment and i added 2 teaspoons of both stress coat and stress zyme even tho i only changed like 15-20% of the water, i didnt harm the fish right? next time i will only add HALF a teaspoon or less, right?


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## bscman

I don't think it'll do too much damage putting too much stress coat in the water--my local Petsmart will put a HUGE amount in the bag when you buy fish (probably enough for 15-20 gallons of water) and they always turn out A-Okay.

As for the gravel vac.
Do you know how a siphon works? 
You can only siphon from high to low. So if your tank is on a stand, place the bucket you want to drain water into on the FLOOR. Gravity does the work here.

You need to get the siphon started. Put one end in the tank and suck on the other end to get the water flowing. Once it starts flowing, gravity will take over and keep the water flowing.
Then just dip the large end of the gravel vac lightly into the gravel and it'll suck up the debris, but not the gravel. One you're done, simply remove it from the tank. The water stops flowing and you're done!


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## lamonsas

well i do have it on a stand but i still dont understtand how to make it suck the waste, well 1 side of the vacum is basically like a pumper shape with a nose and i connect a hose to it, its basically like this in the picture i found on google: http://cichlidresearch.com/gifs/simpleaquarium/gravel_siphon_DSC_4803.jpg 

just has like a broom tip on the front part(not the blue part, the blue part is where i connect the hose)

the tank is very heavy and i dont think i can put it on the floor really

btw i gave my fishy today cucumber, a little piece of course and he ate it and i also gave him a litttle piece of lettuce and he also ate it!


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## Willow

Don't put the tank on the floor---don't try to move it at all, if it's full, the weight of the water will crack the glass. The tank needs to be higher than the bucket, or the water won't flow (at least not in the right direction!). What you want to do is put a bucket on the floor (3 or 5 gallon buckets cost a couple bucks in the paint section at Wal-Mart), then put the siphon into the tank and move it up and down until water starts coming out the other end. At least this is how it works theoretically. I always have to start the siphon by sucking on the end, but be sure to watch the water coming down the tubing, or you'll get a mouthful of fish water. Which is really gross, but won't kill you. I've done it a zillion times. 

StressCoat is a good dechlorinator. I use it most of the time. It doesn't matter if you put too much in, it's not toxic even in large doses, but it isn't cheap, either. You only have to put enough in for the amount of water you replaced, so, yeah, 1/2 a teaspoon should do it. 

StressZyme doesn't do anything. Though it won't hurt if you want to keep adding it until it's used up. But you don't have to buy any more of it, save your money for better things.


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## bscman

It works by the basic concept of a siphon. Do you know how to siphon?



And again, the TANK STAYS ON THE STAND....the bucket you drain into goes on the floor. Siphons work by gravity.
Put the large end into the tank, make sure it stays submerged. Get the water flowing through the hose (start sucking on it until the water is sucket to the end of the hose you're sucking on....put it immediately into the bucket. The pull of gravity will continue pulling water out of the tank until you remove then large end from the tank. 

The large end goes in the tank, once the water is flowing, plunge the large end lightly into the gravel...the suctions from the siphoning action will lift the waste and leave the gravel in place.

A simple siphon.


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## fishiesrfriends

Tbh, I didn't read the whole thing, but let's see if I get this right... you've got 2 goldys (goldfish) in a 10 gallon?
Overstocked, those need 30 gallons, so you should rehome them or ut them in a 30 gallon.
Also, you haven't cycled your tank?
You should do that right away or your fish will suffer.
You don't know how to use a siphon?
You can also use a turkey baster, I heard some people use that. To use a siphon, it usually has 2 tubes, a big cylinder, and a long small tube. You put the big tube in the tank, with the little tube sticking out, then you push it up and down to create a flow... btw, there will be a bucket on the other end of the small tube where the water comes out. So the water and dirt is floating out of the tank and into the bucket. Do this until you remove the amount needed. Since you are so overstocked I suggest a 50% every other day. Then you take the bucket, dump it somewhere (it's really good for plantS) and you replace it with tap water (you have to add the "coats" first).
Flakes are these:








they come in different colors.
HTH!


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## Guest

i have the same siphon that you showed but to get it working, i just put the whole thing in the water and get all the air out of it. then i just plug the "out" hole and put it in the bucket. once it is in the bucket, i let it go and water starts to come out. that way only my hands get wet and there is no dirty fish water in my mouth.


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## lamonsas

i gott the siphon to work and WTF fishiesfriend, who said i have 2 goldies eh? i have 1 black moore goldfish and im getting my tank cycled by changing my water every 2 days and putting stress coat and stress zyme with every water change, im doing around 50% and yes its a 10 gallon tank, i have 1 question, if i were to get ANOTHER 10 gallon tank, could i put an albino oscar in it ? hes small right now, i saw him in the store yesterday but i heared that 10 gallon is too small for an oscar albino, and again im talking 1 oscar albino not 2 or anything, ?


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## Guest

i wouldn't even put an oscar in a 10 gallon as a grow out tank. they produce so much waste and grow so fast you prolly wouldn't even be able to keep him in there for a month if you feed him right. they will eventually need at least a 75 gallon tank. i might be wrong because there is somehing in the back of my head that says they need more but...


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## lamonsas

ya so i guess i will forget about the oscar cuz i cant get a 75 galon, why do they have him in a 10 gallon tank in the store tho? or maybe its 30 gallon


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## lamonsas

btw that fishiesfriends tells me my fish will suffer, WTH is he talkin about? rofl in order to get the cycle i need to have a fish to start with


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## Guest

the reason they have him in such a small tank at the store is because they have idea about how to care for fish properly. It is also just a tempory home for them so they will hopefully, but not likely, live out their lives in a proper size tank. i was at my lfs a few weeks ago to get some feeders and a dad and his kid were getting 2 oscars for their 20 gallon long tank that alrady had 2 zebra cichlids in it. Just because tey were 2.50 each. 

he is saying that the fish will suffer because they can't tolerate the high levels if amonia and such that the water gets during a water cycle. 

if you need anything else let me know, K?

Andrew


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## lamonsas

do u have msn/aim/icq fishguy? please pm me if u do u sound like a good person with good knowledge.


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## lamonsas

btw i have a question, these very small fish that they sell in petland so ppl feed these to their fishes, should i do that too? i mean u know these small fishes that they have in the big tank in large ammounts, ppl usualy take like 20 or more of these and they feed their fish with these small fishes, should i feed my black moore goldfish too?


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## Guest

No don't feed your goldfish feeder fish...I'm not even sure they will eat them. Feeder fish can harbor all kinds of diseases that might infect your goldies.


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## lamonsas

Ok good to know thx


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## Guest

i don't have any aim, myspace etc. only [email protected]

thanks...i appreciate it. when i had a regular comet, almost three inches long, he would eat feeder guppies like a hoover. litterally he would just suck them down.


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## Willow

I know everybody already told you not to get an Oscar for a 10g tank.....but they didn't really say why. The reason is because Oscars will get to be over a foot long. I mean really huge. And they have a habit of "throwing" tank decor and gravel at the glass, and this can break the tank. 10g tanks have really thin glass compared to a 75g or 90g, and are easily broken, I owuldn't even put an Oscar in a 10g for an hour while you cleaned his tank. Even if you have a large tank, you have to be really careful what you put in with an Oscar, it needs to be light so he can't break anything. They're really fun pets, if you can get them a big enough tank. 

As for the cycling question, there is a way to cycle a tank before you put any fish into it. This is better because no fish has to suffer through the cycling process. But since you already have a fish in your tank, you're doing the best you can. It slows down the cycle to do so many water changes, but it's necessary to keep your fishy alive. Your tank will cycle eventually.

You're doing a great job with your tank! Most people would just put 10 comets in a 10g tank and wonder why they're all dying off :/ .


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## Willow

Oh, and about the feeder fish----I wouldn't try it, at least not yet. Your black moor probably isn't big enough to eat other fish yet. Once he gets really big, he might eat guppies, but I doubt he'll ever get big enough to eat comet goldfish. They'd have to fit completely into his mouth for him to eat them, goldfish can't tear up their food. Not that I'm recommending feeder fish for a black moor, I'm just letting you know the realities of it. Fedder godlfish are fatty anyway, and frequently diseased.


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## emc7

I had a goldfish eat a whole mouthful of cichlid fry once (they got under the divider), Goldfish are true omnivores that will eat fish that fit in their mouth. (Pet stores still sell goldfish with guppies and people wonder why "Beauty" dissapeared). But I don't recommend feeding them this way unless your trying to reduce a convict population explosion. Goldfish need more plants in their diet than protein and most flake foods already have more protein and fat than they need.


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## Guest

i've hear dthat gold fish and koi LOVE duck weed. you can find it very easily in a local pond that doesn't have a very strong current


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## emc7

> Also, when adding the chlorine treatment...
> You do NOT need to treat 10 gallons of water. You only need to treat the new, fresh water you are adding to your tank. So if you're adding 1.5 gallons of fresh water, you only need enough treatment to treat 1.5gallons of water.


 The won't apply to most people, but I want to clarify. 
This is true *if and only if you treat the water outside of the tank.* If you add the treatment to the tank instead of the new water, you should dose based on the size of the tank and add the treatment before adding the new water. This is because the chemical reactions are concentration dependent, so if the treatment is diluted, it may not get all the chlorine even if the chlorine is also diluted. Its cheaper to treat the new water in a bucket, but if you ever fill a tank directly from the tap, do not under treat.


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## PrincessT-Amika

*Im new here and i need help!i have a black moor goldfish!*

hey everyone My name is T-Amika and i really need help i got my black moor goldfish on sunday and i have the fish in a little container for fish and it just stay at the top of the tank all day and it dont really eat. the fish seem really unhappy to me.today is now wednesday and its still alive but i dont want my fish to die im getting a fish tank on friday but only a 10 gallon one untill i can get a bigger one i only have one fish.how long should i wait to put my fish in the tank after i get it set up?and i keep hearing about ammonia and i dont want my fish to die from that while its in that very small contanier i have cleaned it out one time this week so it wont die and i put new water in the container and i put some start right in there untill i can get that tank on friday it say that start right stuff removes chlorine chloramine and i only put a drop cause the container is small.i dont know what to do im sad about the whole thing cause i dont want the fish to die.im a newbie and a dumbie please some one give me answers so i can help my fish live.:fish::sad::?::-x


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## PrincessT-Amika

*Im new here and i need help!i have a black moor goldfish!*

hey everyone My name is T-Amika and i really need help i got my black moor goldfish on sunday and i have the fish in a little container for fish and i just stya at the top of the tank all day and it dont really eat. the fish seem really unhappy to me.today is now wednesday and its still alive but i dont want my fish to die im getting a fish tank on friday but only a 10 gallon one untill i can get a bigger one i only have one fish.how long should i wait to put my fish in the tank after i get it set up?and i keep hearing about ammonia and i dont want my fish to die from that while its in that very small contanier i have cleaned it out one time this week so it want die and i put new water in the container and i put some start right in there untill i can get that tank on friday it say that start right stuff removes chlorine chloramine and i only put a drop cause the container is small.i dont know what to do im sad about the whole thing cause i dont want the fish to die.im a newbie and a dumbie please some one give me answers so i can help my fish live.:fish::sad::?::-x


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## Guest

once this week wont do much. i suggest daily water changes. depending on how small the container i would do 50% to 90 % of water changes. add an airstone with a pump set on low so that you can areate the water as well. mind if i asked why wait till friday to get the tank?


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