# Water problems...fish dying..tank not cycling?



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

Really need help with what to do...55 gallon freshwater tank newly set up (three weeks), 20 (3 months old) fry, and 20 (2 week old) Molly fry in a breeder box. There are 4 adult Mollies, and 4 adult Platies also. The 20 Mollie fry are from the silver Mollie female who dropped the fry the day I got her from the LFS. The other older fry are from my daughter's 29 gallon tank and her adult Mollie. They are creamsickle lyretails and dalmation lyretails, and mixed colors of both. We had to put all of our (50) Mollies together for a period of 2 weeks due to needing to fleabomb where daughter's 29 gallon tank was in her room. The 25 young Mollies are now back in their own tank, hopefully decreasing the load on the 55 gallon, however, still having water/chem issues with the 55 gallon. We have lost about half of the newborn Mollie fry, and about 4-5 of our young adult Mollies, also have lost my new sunburst platy female, and my panda platy male. We have been trying to get the water properly cycled, without any luck, having tried many different approaches recommended by others with more knowledge than we have. We did a 90% water change last week which cleared up our cloudy water, and all the detritis in the tank, also found a dead mollie after doing gravel vacumning. Still the tank chemisty is off...ph tonight is 7.6 (it was 6.8) and for some reason we are having pH drops. Ammonia is .50 which is the lowest it has ever been, but no detectable Nitrates or Nitrites. Using a chem kit, no dipsticks. What to do at this point to save our fish...Need help and good advice so we don't lose any more fish (we have obviously screwed up here) Very confused on what to do to fix this situation. Appreciate any help! Thank you!


----------



## lmb (Nov 1, 2011)

Did you properly cycle the tank prior to adding all these fish? From what it looks like, that's what happened. Keep doing daily partial water changes until at least the ammonia is down to .25 ppm or less. To help cycle the tank, raise the heat in the tank and you could as well add a bacterial additive to help start the cycle (I recommend Tetra SafeStart as an bacterial additive - When you do add the bacterial additive, don't do water changes because that'll just mess everything up once again. Read the direction Carefully).

As far as the pH drops, can you give us more information?


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Do you have any idea of the hardness? Usually pH swings are associated with soft water + high nitrite or nitrate. But seeing ammonia rather than either means the large number of fish most likely caused a big enough enough ammonia spike to kill all your filter bacteria. 

I agree with the big water change + bacterial supplement advice you've been given. You have to treat it like a new tank. 

Consider either cranking up the pH & hardness with an additive (baking soda, cichlid salts, alkaline regulator, etc.) or adding salt. Seasalt like instant ocean is good for mollies and platys. You'd want either a TDS pen, a hydrometer, or a liquid kH, gH, pH test. Whenever you start altering water chemistry, you need to monitor it. A sudden pH or hardness or salinity drop is bad for livebearers, so be careful with large water changes, but keep the ammonia down.


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

We thought we properly cycled the tank, but obviously we did not. We used Seachem Prime before we added the fish for about 2 weeks and have been using Seachem Stability for ammonia spikes to try to control the ammonia. When the pH dropped we added baking soda to try to raise it slowly. We had originally added aquarium salt to the tank for the Mollies in the amount suggested before we added the fish to the tank. So we tried to cycle it, but apparently didn't quite do it right. Our tap water pH is 8.4. Why the pH keeps dropping I don't understand, but this morning we have lost another 4-5 Molly fry. We have been trying to cycle two other tanks to move some of the Mollies into. We have a 15 gallon tank we got for the Molly fry two weeks ago that we have been trying to cycle also. Temp is 82, pH 7.2, Ammonia is 4.0, nitrate is 5.0, and nitrate is .25. We also have another 5 gallon that had cycled water from daughter's aquarium. We added some of that water to the 55 gallon tank and the 15 gallon tank. The water parameters on the 5 gallon tank are temp 78, ph 6.4 (???) ammonia 4.0, nitrate 40, and nitrite 5.0. Did a 25 % water change on it yesterday. I was hoping to get the 15 gallon tank cycled to add the Molly fry before I lose them all in the 55. I have been adding bacterial supplement almost every day and doing at least 30% water changes every week. I am so confused....UGH. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about cycling to try to understand what is happening..but I am not understanding it apparently. Thank you for your suggestions. If I do another big water change, won't that disrupt the cycling?


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

*Additional info*

Also, the water in the 55 gallon tank is quite cloudy..has been for days. Is this bacterial bloom?


----------



## mpfsr (Jun 22, 2011)

You sure are in a pickle.. I would do 50% W/C this morning then another tonight. If the ammonia is that high your nitrite is gonna spike to even using prime. This will surly kill everything in the tank or weaken them and make them get sick. You have to keep those number Down way down from there current state. Make sure to add the salt you have been for the molly's to the water changes. You will need to do this till you see 0 for ammonia and nitrite.. then try to keep nitrate under 20 with weekly water changes.. I keep mine under 10-15 but anything under 40 is considered safe.


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

Just did some parameters on the 55 gallon tank...today it is temp 82, pH 7.4 (headed down again) nitrate is 5.0, nitrites 0, and ammonia is 0.5. Should I do a large water change based on these readings. Water is also very cloudy today.


----------



## mpfsr (Jun 22, 2011)

Question for you, Have you ever tested your tap water for ammonia or nitrates? It sounds like your tank is cycled might have some left over ammonia from all the added fish. I would test my tap water for ammonia if it tests positive i would always use prime or something similar with water changes. When you tested your tap waters Ph did you let it sit 24 hours with an airstone in it? Some places use buffers to raise Ph so its less likely to damage water pipes. but those will dissipate after time and aeration.


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

I did a test for nitrates and ammonia in our tap water..just a few days ago and it was negative for both. We have added Prime to every water change we have done. We did not let the tap water sit at all with an airstone, it was added directly to the fish tank with the Prime. Is this something we should be doing before a water change? What is the point of that? I did not know about this at all. I am still quite confused how the pH is dropping.


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

Here are our tanks parameters:

55 GALLON
6 adult Mollies
15 young Mollies
20 Molly fry about 3 weeks old in breeder box
non planted
Rena 3 Filstar

Today's water parameters
pH 7.4
Nitrate 5.0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia .50
82 degrees F
water is quite whitish cloudy

15 GALLON
cycling, no fish yet
non-planted
pH 7.2
Nitrate 5.0
Nitrite 5.0
Ammonia 4.0
80 degrees F
Tetra X10 filter (came with tank) isn't this too small for the tank?
clear water

5 GALLON
cycling, no fish but had a common pleco in it (now at LFS!)
pH 7.6
Nitrate 5.0
Nitrite 1.0
Ammonia 4.0
temp 78 F


29 GALLON 

20 Mollie young fry (4 months old)
1 Siamese algae eater
non planted
pH 7.2
Nitrate 5.0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0.5
temp 80 F

I am so confused now..what should I do with each tank to get it to the point I can add fish to it? The 5 gallon tank was to be for the Mollie fry

Thank you.. I think I have read too much now without really understanding. Appreciate any help!


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

*Need some recommendations on what to do with our four tanks..CLUELESS In Charlotte*

I posted this last night...would really appreciate some advice on how to get these tanks cycled so I can move some fish from my overcrowded 55 gallon tank with all the problems..thank you very much!


----------



## mpfsr (Jun 22, 2011)

Letting your water sit with an airstone..You only need to do this to test your tap water so you get the correct readings for Ph. Not on every water change.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

As long as you have ammonia, you aren't cycled. Any large ammonia spike (>=5 ppm) could kill the cycle and make you start over. 

One drawback with Prime is that it can use up oxygen in the water. If you see fish gasp at the surface after a water change, you may need to let your treated water sit before using it (depends on how much oxygen is in your tap water). If you don't have an oxygen problem, you can safely use 4 times the normal dose when you are having an ammonia "emergency' and it will often pull your fish through.

IMO, an "uncycled" tank with 100% clean water is okay to put fish in, as long as you consider it "cycling with fish" and watch your level, change water religiously, and use an ammonia-detoxifier like prime. 

However, if you buffered and/or salted one tank, you have to be careful when moving fish to lower hardness or lower salt water. You'd acclimate slowly to be safe. For a tank that will have livebearers, I'd up the hardness and salt to slightly above the tank they are in and move them over. 

White/cloudy is most likely bacteria eating ammonia in the water, but can result from buffers or substrate also. I would not worry about it, but watch the levels.

You filter for the fish load as much as the tank size. That filter will work for a few small fish, but i would add a second filter. 

Did you test the tapwater for ammonia after adding dechlor? Chloramine would explain higher ammonia levels after a water change. 

If your tank is softwater, you may need a more aggressive buffer. Look at something like cichlid chemistry or Malawi buffer.


----------



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

*Tap water problems...now*

I tested our tap water....let it sit for 24 hours..and surprisingly the parameters are very different than when I tested them before. The pH is 7.8, Ammonia is 1.0, and 0 for Nitrates and Nitrites. When we tested the tap water this am right from the tap Ammonia was .50

Do we need to get other water to use for our aquariums? We are having much trouble with pH drops and high ammonia, though the tanks are not completely cycled.


----------



## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

If there is a large amount of ammonia in the tap, you probably want to consider different water. You can get a reverse osmosis/deionization system to remove everything from your tap water, including the ammonia. You will need to buy a few things to replace trace elements and make your pH and hardness go back to where you want it, but you will be in complete control of everything that enters the tank. 

You can also use chemicals like Nitro-ban, Seachem Prime, Neutral Regulator, etc to neutralize the effects of ammonia.


----------



## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I disagree about it needing to be a different water source for one reason: The biological filter will deal with the ammonia- that's its job. What I would do is set the water out and use an ammonia detoxifyer on it, let it set for a few hours then put it in the tank and let the bio filter do it's magic  

With that said I would check my tank 24 hours later and see if it reads ammonia then. If it is reading ammonia 24 hours later then the bio filter isn't able to keep up with it- look at another water source.


----------



## phlyergirl (Nov 6, 2011)

I also have high ammonia in my tap water from all the chloramine they use, since we've been in a severe drought and they add more chloramine for stagnant water conditions. I've also cycled a few tanks with it like that, so I don't think you need different water. Just figure out what your tap reading is, and do large daily water changes (80% or more) and use prime at 2-3x the normal dose and try to keep it at the same level your tap water is at. Test your water right before you change it until you are getting fewer ppm on your ammonia than your tap and/or 0 nitrite before your water change. It's a lot of work, but it can be done. Good luck


----------



## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I disagree with the 80% daily changes. You do need to let the bacteria establish. I wouldn't do more than 50% and not necessarily daily. Stability will really help if you can find some.


----------



## phlyergirl (Nov 6, 2011)

Well, just saying what I did, and it worked.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

For the pH swings, you'll need something to buffer the water, whether a water additive, or something like dolomite substrate. i do think they it will calm some when you get the 'cycle' under control as ammonia is basic and nitrite and nitrate are acidic. 

It sounds like you are having real trouble establishing the biological filtration. High ammonia can sabotage it as can pH < 7. I would suggest either adding bio-media to your filters (sponge, rings, etc.) or adding sponge filters to all the tanks. Then when you can get one tank "cycled", you could relocate a sponge filter to seed another. That you are seeing nitrate is a good sign, that you are seeing nitrite is not.

Obs is right that a "cycled" bio-filter should handle the extra ammonia from the tap-water. When you change water in a cycled tank, the extra ammonia should be converted to nitrate pretty quickly, certainly be all gone by morning. Having ammonia in the tap means more water changes because your nitrates will go up faster that if you didn't. Before anti-chloramine conditioners, we would pre-treat our water for 24-48hr with a box filter in a large rubbermaid trash can. Worst case you could try this, add dechlor and run a big sponge filter in a large water container, you could buffer the water here and heat it if you needed to. Then use it for water changes.

You can top off, replacing evaporated water with distilled or deionized water, but don't use it for waster changes. fish need minerals, esp. livebearers.


----------

