# What did I do?



## ms-tiff (Mar 4, 2008)

Hi there,
This question relates to my 38 Litre tank (an Aquaone AR380).

It usually has 2 dwarf gouramis, 6 neon tetras, 1 peppermint bristlenose and 1marble bristlenose along with a couple of live plants and a snail. It's been set up for about 5 months and continuously happy for about 3 months now (since I learned about nitrate, ammonia, cycling etc). In fact I successfully used the filter media from this tank to seed the filter during fishless cycling of my new, larger tank. I do a 30% water change every week.

So.......Since the last ten ?? days or so, I've been returning higher than normal readings on nitrate (between 10 and 20ppm). I started testing more regularly because one dwarf gourami was not "looking right" - a little less active than usual. I had thought it may be due to a small amount of bullying from the other gourami who is a bit bigger and chases him around a bit. But I have upped the water changes - I did a 40% change when I first noticed the problem with fish behaviour and nitrate (about 7 - 10 days ago) and have since done a 30% and last night another 25% change. 

The not-quite-right-gourami is now looking very unwell: rarely moves/swims around unless chased, usually just lols about near the bottom or occasionaly at the top. He does not have any injuries and I've observed the bullying, it's a bit of chasing but no nipping or anything that looks too bad.

Now tonight I found the marble bristlenose dead (RIP :-( ) when last night I was admiring him, how much he had grown and he appeared perfectly healthy etc etc.

Despite the 25% water change last night, my nitrate result tonight is again at 20ppm - last night it was only 10ppm. Ammonia is at zero and has remained this way throughout the whole crisis. I even tested my tapwater to make sure it wasn't high in nitrates but it is at 0 for ammonia and nitrate.

So I am wondering what on earth has gone wrong??????????

The ONLY thing I can think of is: I was advised by the local fish shop to never wash filter media (3 layers of fine and coarse sponge) in clean water but to occasionally give it a few quick squeezes in the dirty water as I'm doing a partial water change. Last week was the first time I have done this at all, otherwise I have left the filter untouched. This roughly coincides with my problem. Was this wrong? Do you think this is the cause of my problem? Or could it be something else altogether.

I have removed the healthy gourami tonight and put it in my other tank. The sick gourami and neons are still in the "sick" tank, I'm not sure what to do with them and what is going wrong?

Sorry this is so long, and I hoep my questions are not too dumb.:withstup: 
I hope you can help!
Thanks
Tiff


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

ms-tiff said:


> Hi there,
> This question relates to my 38 Litre tank (an Aquaone AR380).
> It usually has 2 dwarf gouramis, 6 neon tetras, 1 peppermint bristlenose and 1marble bristlenose along with a couple of live plants and a snail.


IMHO you tank is not overstocked.




ms-tiff said:


> So.......Since the last ten ?? days or so, I've been returning higher than normal readings on nitrate (between 10 and 20ppm). I started testing more regularly because one dwarf gourami was not "looking right" - a little less active than usual.
> But I have upped the water changes - I did a 40% change when I first noticed the problem with fish behaviour and nitrate (about 7 - 10 days ago) and have since done a 30% and last night another 25% change. Despite the 25% water change last night, my nitrate result tonight is again at 20ppm - last night it was only 10ppm. Ammonia is at zero and has remained this way throughout the whole crisis. I even tested my tapwater to make sure it wasn't high in nitrates but it is at 0 for ammonia and nitrate.
> I had thought it may be due to a small amount of bullying from the other gourami who is a bit bigger and chases him around a bit.
> The not-quite-right-gourami is now looking very unwell: rarely moves/swims around unless chased, usually just lols about near the bottom or occasionaly at the top. He does not have any injuries and I've observed the bullying, it's a bit of chasing but no nipping or anything that looks too bad.
> Now tonight I found the marble bristlenose dead (RIP :-( ) when last night I was admiring him, how much he had grown and he appeared perfectly healthy etc etc.


Tiffany: this is a tough one.

IMHO the significant nitrate concentration change may be partially effective in the problem but I believe that this change in such a brief period is indicative of a much worse problem (or else the MBN would not be dead as in my experience these are very hardy fish).




ms-tiff said:


> The ONLY thing I can think of is: I was advised by the local fish shop to never wash filter media (3 layers of fine and coarse sponge) in clean water but to occasionally give it a few quick squeezes in the dirty water as I'm doing a partial water change. Last week was the first time I have done this at all, otherwise I have left the filter untouched. This roughly coincides with my problem. Was this wrong? Do you think this is the cause of my problem?


No this was not wrong unless you did not wash out the vessel in which you rinsed the filter media in with tank water prior to filling the vessel and rinsing the media.




ms-tiff said:


> So I am wondering what on earth has gone wrong??????????


Welcome to adventures in fish keeping and I have had several.




ms-tiff said:


> Or could it be something else altogether.


Tiffany: you did not indicate if you had aesthetic material on the bottom of your tank but my gut reaction here is that
you have been overfeeding and "something" is coming out of the material or
you have induced something toxic into the filters and hence into the tank water.




ms-tiff said:


> I have removed the healthy gourami tonight and put it in my other tank. The sick gourami and neons are still in the "sick" tank, I'm not sure what to do with them and what is going wrong?
> Sorry this is so long, and I hoep my questions are not too dumb.:withstup:


Tiffany: the only dumb questions are those which are not asked!
BUT OK and if this were my tank I would either:

Remove some water from your good tank & place in a vessel, remove the fish which are still alive from the problem tank (they may recover) with a net, rinse the fish and net in the water in the vessel, and put the fish in your good tank; or

like right now go out and purchase a jug of activated carbon and a media bag, place the carbon in the media bag and the media bag around the intake of your filtration system.

TR

BTW Tiffany:

Please post if you have a problem with either of the preceding two suggestions.

An ecosystem with a 12G tank is much more prone to fish and plant problems than an ecosystem with a 110G tank.


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## Madam Macaw (Jan 29, 2008)

Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the nitrate range from 20 - 40 to begin with?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Madam Macaw said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the nitrate range from 20 - 40 to begin with?


MM

When you say "shouldn't" I do not understand where you are coming from as the literature typically indicates that nitrates should be less than 20 if possible.

I attempt to keep the Gh<5, the Kh<3 and the nitrates<5 in my tank water for the health of my plants and fishies.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

40ppm Nitrate is safe for most freshwater fish. Discus and some wild-caught fish like it lower. But if you wait until 40 to change water, you end up with 50% water changes. 30% at 30ppm is easier. 20 is good target for a beginner tank. The fact that nitrate is suddenly climbing isn't a problem with the filter -- that would be indicated by nitrite, but it could indicate a problem with the plants -- they stopped removing nitrate, letting it climb. It doesn't explain the gourami's behavior or the bristlenose's death. That sounds like a separate issue. I don't see any nitrite test results, it would be prudent to get some, in case it is a filter issue. Plecos are sensitive to Nitrite.


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## Madam Macaw (Jan 29, 2008)

http://www.cichlidforum.com/articles/cycling.php
Articles that this forum lists in the beginning section. The graphic in this article shows a nitrate level of over 50 before the water change is done. I believe on the test strips list 20-40 as "normal" - though I haven't used them since getting the liquid testers, but will check tonight.

My water with weekly water changes is 10-20 nitrate with nitrite and ammonia 0. Nitrates should never be 0. Hmmm, after doing a bit more reading it looks like 10-20 is a better number to go by. Someone please, correct me if I am wrong.


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## Madam Macaw (Jan 29, 2008)

emc7 said:


> 40ppm Nitrate is safe for most freshwater fish. Discus and some wild-caught fish like it lower. But if you wait until 40 to change water, you end up with 50% water changes. 30% at 30ppm is easier. 20 is good target for a beginner tank. The fact that nitrate is suddenly climbing isn't a problem with the filter -- that would be indicated by nitrite, but it could indicate a problem with the plants -- they stopped removing nitrate, letting it climb. It doesn't explain the gourami's behavior or the bristlenose's death. That sounds like a separate issue. I don't see any nitrite test results, it would be prudent to get some, in case it is a filter issue. Plecos are sensitive to Nitrite.


Whew - thanks. I started thinking I was doing something wrong. Mine run between 10-20 with nitrite and ammonia 0.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

I'm going to guess that the gourami sickness is from the bullying. Unless you watch the tank all the time, I think you could be missing alot of the bullying going on. Its not recommended to keep 2 dwarf gouramis together in a small tank. The stress from the bullying could be taking a toll on the gourami. Another possibility is internal parasites. Does he look skinnier than normal? Any white stringy poo?

IMO you were a bit overstocked with the 2 bristlenose plecs, the DGs, and the Neons. The tank is right at 10 gallons for those not familiar with liters. I personally wouldn't put a BN in a 10g because they produce alot of waste......not to mention 2 BNs. But, like said above, nitrates aren't your problem. 20-40 is the safe range.....try to keep it below 40 though, like emc stated.

As far as the BN death is concerned. Its hard to say what happened there. I'd also be interested in what your nitrItes are. Everything else looks ok to me and I don't see anything that sticks out that would cause the death.

Do you vac the gravel when you change water? And also, how often do you feed? Has this changed recently (increased) or have you used a different type of food?


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## Madam Macaw (Jan 29, 2008)

JustOneMore20 said:


> I'm going to guess that the gourami sickness is from the bullying. Unless you watch the tank all the time, I think you could be missing alot of the bullying going on. Its not recommended to keep 2 dwarf gouramis together in a small tank. The stress from the bullying could be taking a toll on the gourami. Another possibility is internal parasites. Does he look skinnier than normal? Any white stringy poo?
> 
> IMO you were a bit overstocked with the 2 bristlenose plecs, the DGs, and the Neons. The tank is right at 10 gallons for those not familiar with liters. I personally wouldn't put a BN in a 10g because they produce alot of waste......not to mention 2 BNs. But, like said above, nitrates aren't your problem. 20-40 is the safe range.....try to keep it below 40 though, like emc stated.
> 
> ...


Glad you came on board here and reiterated 20-40 being the safe range. I couldn't find anything "concrete" with the figure. Question - is it still safe to keep it below 20? Mine normally runs between 10 and 20 or am I changing the water too much?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2008)

Anything below 40 is safe. People with plants usually keep them in the 5-10ppm range because you want to have some for the plants to take in, but you don't want too much....and the plants lower them, so it stays in that range (or 5-20). So its completely safe to have them around 10-20. In my high tech planted tanks I actually add nitrates so the plants have something to take in.


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## Madam Macaw (Jan 29, 2008)

JustOneMore20 said:


> Anything below 40 is safe. People with plants usually keep them in the 5-10ppm range because you want to have some for the plants to take in, but you don't want too much....and the plants lower them, so it stays in that range (or 5-20). So its completely safe to have them around 10-20. In my high tech planted tanks I actually add nitrates so the plants have something to take in.


Thanks - I feel much better now.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Okay I have 2 concerns:
1. 38 litres = 10 gallons. This is a bit small for 2 dwarf gourami's and for both of the plecos, though I know now you are down to 1. Gouramis are somewhat aggressive and territorial and in 10 gallons they will not have much room to play out this aggression without causing harm. So I would expect that separating them is your best answer and hopefully this will help the one being bullied. 
2. While your nitrates are within safe levels I do find it suspicious that the levels rise so quickly. Part of this has to do with the size of your tank. Small tanks are hard to keep stable. With the plecos that were in there I suspect that your filter cannot keep up with the bioload. Plecos are very messy and even a single one would be able to overload a small tank, especially if it has a filter that is rated only for 10 gallons as well. 

One long term solution for this tank would be to buy a filter that is rated for at least 30 gallon tanks (if you do not already have one, that is!) 

Solution #2 put the pleco in an appropriate sized tank: For a bristlenose this is 20 gallons as they do tend to stay around 5 inches. It is not horrible for the BN to be in the 10 gallon tank, but if you choose to keep him in there then I would definitely get a better filter to help with his messiness. 

Solution #3 Make sure you do not have any more than one dwarf gourami in this tank at a time.


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## ms-tiff (Mar 4, 2008)

OK. Firstly thank you all.

Overnight the unwell gourami has died. The bully gourami is doing well in my larger tank, seems a bit shy of the others and not bullying them so that is good I guess? I still have the neons in the sick tank at present. 

As a temporary measure, should I/is it Ok to put them in my larer tank with
2 angels
6 cardinal tetras
3 dwarf gourami (which includes the bullyremoved from sick tank)
1 gold gourami
2 rainbow sharks
3 peppermint bristlenose (includes the one removed from sick tank)

or maybe I should go buy the carbon? (it's now morning here so this is an option in an hour or so)

.............

Here are my answers to many of your questions/comments...

My bristlenoses are/were both less than one inch in size, so with regular, thorough vacuuming and water changes would their waste really be significant at the moment? Granted in the future you may argue it could become a problem, but would it be the cause of the problem now?

Yes I vacuum the gravel (fairly savagely) when I do a water change. The vacuum touches the bottom of the tank.

Substrate is coarse gravel, the typical coloured stuff that you "buy in a bag" at the aquarium shop. Probably around 5 - 7 mm. I also have 2 pieces of driftwood in the tank, they were purchased from the aquarium shop and were already cured and in tanks when I purchased them.

The bucket that I am using for my water changes is used only for this purpose so I'm pretty sure I haven't contaminated the water this way - plus I use it for my other tank and it is fine???

I am not sure re: overfeeding - I only give them a tiny pinch of flakes each day, and sometimes skip a day. I give them less than my natural inclination would be. Plus I drop in a pellet about every 2nd or 3rd day for the bristlenose. No recent change in food.

No noticeable physical changes or white poo from the (now deceased) dwarf gourami, except that he became inactive.

.......

Sounds like I made a mistake with the 2 dwarf gouramis being in together, will not do this again! So much for the 'advice' I have been receiveing from the aquarium shop!

So, any comments, suggestions, advice on where to go to from here greatly appreciated. 

Also - with a view to the future, once this is all sorted out, suggestions on which type of fish and what stock levels would be appropriate for this tank would be useful. Colourful but hardy....The tank is 'officially' my 5 yr old daughter's - she is getting a rapid lesson in the cycle of life :-(
Thank you all so much,
Tiffany


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## oliesminis (May 7, 2007)

ive had the same situation with gouramis fighting. also when the bristlenose died was it eating regulary before it died, however i would check before adding neons with angels as ive heard the angels may see them as food but check on that from someone else.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Yes, neons do tend to become food for angels once the angels' mouths get big enough. 

At this point I would advise keeping the fish in the "sick" tank in informal quarantine. If your larger tank has healthy fish and no problems, I would be loath to risk it by introducing an unknown infection. If you had data that your little tank problems were water quality I wouldn't hesitate, but since you don't know.. Well better safe than sorry. If you lose everything in the little tank, you can bleach it and start over.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

ms-tiff said:


> As a temporary measure, should I/is it Ok to put them in my larer tank with ...
> or maybe I should go buy the carbon? (it's now morning here so this is an option in an hour or so)


Tiffany:

I unfortunately do not know where "here" is as your location is not on your public profile.

Back on topic the answer to your questions is that it is a real crap shoot but this is my best guess based on experience.

Go with the activated carbon and get plenty of it.

TR

BTW: with respect to your long term question I am substantially in agreement with Obs but let's deal with that issue when your fish quit dieing (which if I am correct about the carbon, and I really hope that I am, should 80% over in 12 hours).


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## ms-tiff (Mar 4, 2008)

Hi again, 
Thanks for all your help so far.
Just wondering...after I have had the activated carbon in the tank for a day or two should I take it out? Then what do I do? Should I do a partial water change? Test the levels? How will I know if my problem has been fixed?
Neon tetras are all still alive (thank goodness!) although I think a couple have lost a bit of colour.
Thanks
Tiffany


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

If you are not using medications in this tank then leave the carbon in there for a while. They are usually "active" for 3-4 weeks. The smaller the carbon pieces, the better it is. 

Sorry to hear you lost the one gourami


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You don't know a problem is solved unless you know what it was to begin with. If you had high nitrites and they are now 0, you might call it solved. But if you suspect disease, after 4 weeks with no new sick fish or deaths, you can hope you are in the clear.


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