# Help! Screwy backwars Fishless Cycle!



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

I thought I was at the end of my fishless cycle. The nitrite and ammonia readings were consistently going down, readings on 9/5/15 were ammonia .25 and nitrites between 1-1.5ppm. This was lower than the reading 2 days earlier. On 9/7/15 my readings were as follows: ammonia 0 (Yay!) but nitrites went UP to 3ppm from the 1-1.5ppm just 2 days earlier! How are nitrites now going up when they have been dropping for about a week? I don't know where to go from here and would appreciate any and all help! Thank you!


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

That's part of the process. Ammonia changes to Nitrites then changes Nitrates. Wait till you add fish. Your ammonia is going to explode. Fishless cycling is IMHO useless.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

When did you start the fishless cycle? A cycle takes 6-8 weeks to complete. Although I have cycled my 5.5 gallon tank in 3 weeks. I agree with Elliot225. I did a fish cycle and so far my cycle is holding. I like doing fish cycles, because then you don't have to supply the ammonia, the fish supplies the ammonia; and, you can let your tank cycle.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Do you have a nitrAte reading?


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Please do not get discouraged, you are almost there. 

I personally love to do fishless cycles, having done several at one time. Although it did not take as long as stated previously, I find them useful as it gives time to set up tanks ( Aquascaping) as needed per intended stock.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

WildForFish said:


> Please do not get discouraged, you are almost there.
> 
> I personally love to do fishless cycles, having done several at one time. Although it did not take as long as stated previously, I find them useful as it gives time to set up tanks ( Aquascaping) as needed per intended stock.


I never thought that a fishless cycle could give you time to set up the tank. That is interesting.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

the best thing you could do is just follow through with your cycling process..don't do anything different...as the old saying goes " it will all come out in the wash...
it does seem like your tank is doing just fine..


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

lohachata said:


> the best thing you could do is just follow through with your cycling process..don't do anything different...as the old saying goes " it will all come out in the wash...
> it does seem like your tank is doing just fine..


I agree with this^. It takes time and patience to cycle a tank. I was anxious about my 5.5 gallon tank cycling, but with forced patience I got it cycled. Once you have 0ppm ammonia and nitrite with some nitrate, then your tank is cycled. In my opinion, fishless cycling takes longer, because you have to add the ammonia in order to seed the tank, or you add the bacteria. I am having to do this to my 55 gallon tank. But with patience, you will get the tank cycled. Oh, lohachata always tells folks:

"The more you mess with the tank, the more problems you create for yourself".


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Just wondering...how long does a fishless cycle take as opposed to a fish added cycle??

What would make a fishless tank cycle if there is nothing to start the process and feed the bacteria??


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

This thread should be left for suggestions / help for the current tank cycling. 

I will start a new thread for fishless cycle discussion later this evening.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

Elliot225: it really takes the same amount of time to cycle a tank whether you do fishless or fish added. The difference is if you seed the tank with either filter media or the decorations from another tank. I cycled my 5.5 gallon in 3 weeks by taking 3 decorations from my 55 gallon and putting them in the 5.5 gallon and it cycled in 3 weeks.

To make a fishless tank cycle, you have to add the ammonia, and let it cycle.

Personally, I think that a fishless cycle is too much work, rather have the fish provide the ammonia source.


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks Blue Moon. Even if you move media or décor, don't you still need a continuing source of ammonia?


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)

If you have a fish or several in the tank, no. If you don't, then yes. I did a fish added cycle with the three decorations with my 5.5 gallon tank, and cycled it in 3 weeks.


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## Mugwump (Aug 7, 2015)

I've cycled a tank over night with a seasoned sponge...pop a seasoned sponge in with a new sponge or hob filter.....squeeze the seasoned sponge out well in the new tank water....and drop the sponge in too..the water will look terrible, but over night you'll have a cycled tank..clear as can be....just stock lightly for the first few days/week....


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

keep this in mind...
" little bo peep had lost her sheep and didn't know where to find them...
"LEAVE THEM ALONE" and they will come home , wagging their tails behind them.......

KISS

think about it.


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2015)

I see what you are saying lohachata. You are saying that if you leave the tank alone then it will cycle. If you don't leave the tank alone, it won't cycle.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Thank you to EVERYONE who responded - The information is very much appreciated.

I started the cycle the beginning of July BUT was unexpectedly hospitalized shortly afterwards for 2 weeks. The tank was on it's own with no readings during that time. So - I am not sure if that has caused this extended cycle - it's been 2 mos. and 9 days now! And it's only a 10 gallon tank. 

Now to answer some questions that were posed:

WildForFish - Nitrates are about 15 ppm - I have been showing nitrates now, although slight at first, for close to a month now. I am just confused as to why the nitrates are going UP instead of down.

Blue Moon - You said I should have 0 ammonia and nitrites with nitrates. Unless I am misunderstanding the cycle, I thought it was cycled when I had 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites. Can someone correct me if I am wrong? 

Thank you again!


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

Lady...you are almost there..i will try to explain a little and hopefully it will ease your concerns..
as the cycle starts Ammonia levels are up..as the nitrifying bacteria form and consume the ammonia the nitrites will rise...there will be a peak in the ammonia and it will start to fall... the nitrites rise and start to be converted to nitrates .once the nitrites peak the cycle is almost done..ammonia will be at "0"...the nitrites will be falling and nitrates rising...soon after you will have readings where there are "0" Ammonia...."0" Nitrites...and some sort of Nitrate reading..it will vary...now the cycle is completed...there after try to keep the Nitrates around 20 or lower...
BUT.................................nothing is perfect...every time you add a fish or 2 there is a very small spike in Ammonia and Nitrites..that is normal and can be disregarded....a little overfeeding also causes a slight change...
once the tank has cycled i would only test if it seems there is a problem..smell the tank every now and then..it should smell kind of like dirt..
i hope this helps and has not confused you further...you are doing just fine...
like i said...be like little bo peep..


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## Guest (Sep 9, 2015)

LadySamsara: listen to loahchata. He knows his stuff, as he has been in the hobby quite awhile. I have only been in the hobby for 10 years and have my first cycled tank, working on my second. I am glad that lohachata explained it to you, because I wasn't sure how to explain it to you without the possibility of confusing you more. Lohachata has helped me with my first cycled tank. Remember what he said about little bo peep, it was a very good analogy. I hope that your question has been answered and if there are any more questions, we all are happy to help.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Not sure where some posts went - they are missing - Now I have no idea if people responded with information or not.

I have heard of Safe Start - do you think that would help me at this point? I just want the tank ready for my Betta already!


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

I've used that to help the tank to cycle, but I used with fish in the new tank.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Hi Elliot 225,

Thank you for your reply. I could not believe the bottle was $25.00! Tetra's got it made! But it gets rave reviews online,

I think I'll give it a little more thought (that $25.00 could go quite a ways at my LFS - towards the other fish I want and other supplies -) so I am not sure what I want to do. I am not sure if it's worth the $25.00 for an instant cycle or just wait it out.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Seeing as you so close to completing the cycle, I would just wait it out for a little bit longer.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

I agree, WildForFish - I just can't wrap my mind around this bottle being $25.00, and to use it when I am so close! 

I will put it aside and return next time I am at my LFS. 

Thank you for your help, it is very much appreciated!

>>Lady Samsara - desperate and stupid lol


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

LadySamsara said:


> >>Lady Samsara - desperate and stupid lol



 

Not at all, This is a learning experience which is always a good thing


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

WildForFish - I noticed the Safe Start had a money back guarantee written on the bottle! Flew to the tank and poured the whole bottle in as directed! I will test again tomorrow and see if anything has improved. I have a feeling Tetra might be getting a return if things don't straighten out overnight as they advertise..."Put product in and ready for fish immediately". I cannot believe my luck that I happened to get the bottle that had the guarantee ~sly smile~


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

~Doing The Happy Dance~

Just 18 hours after getting up and down nitrite readings at the tail end of my cycle, I tested this AM. .25 ammonia - 0 nitrites! I am not quite sure why the ammonia went up from zero, unless even the one drop of ammonia I was adding daily was enough to create a reading (it's only a 10 gallon tank - apartment rules  I am another happy customer of Tetra Safe Start plus - it really does work! I will wait until tomorrow to let the tank settle some more, do another reading and if the readings stay the same (especially the nitrites) I will do an 80% water change (as directed in the fishless cycle) and test again just to be sure before I put my fish and snails in. YAY~ Cycle completed - tray table with betta and snails out of the middle of my living room! 

I want to thank everyone who assisted me during this process - the help and advise is so greatly appreciated!


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2015)

When both ammonia and nitrite are 0ppm, then test for nitrates, you should have a nitrate reading. When my 5.5 gallon tank cycled, I had 0ppm ammonia and nitrite, then I tested for nitrate, which I had 20ppm. That is when you know your tank is cycled, is when you have some nitrates.

Thank you for that review of the TetraSafeStart Plus, I have it and will be using it in my 55 gallon tank and was wondering if it really does work. YAY! Now I know thanks to you.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Will you please post all levels at once? before the water change.

Ammonia, nitrIte & nitrAte so we can have a better idea of where the cycle stands


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Hi WildForFish - here's the information you requested:

Ammonia - .025PPM
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - Approximately 15PPM

Am I not cycled? 

Thank you for your help!


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Leave the tank for 24 hours, don't do anything with it.

Re-test levels and we can go from the results to be sure.

( I would consider it cycled with a minor ammonia spike.)


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

I dosed the tank with ammonia yesterday , let sit overnight and today the readings were:

NitrItes: 0
Ammonia - Was zero until one second after the reading time, then it went to a little below .25. It was very weird....zero and then a reading. I am not sure what to make of that,
NitrAtes: About 15

Should I still be dosing the tank or should I wait until the ammonia goes down to zero naturally.

Any thoughts or assistance would be greatly appreciated!


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

not understanding why you had to dose with ammonia again..that should have stopped when you added the safe start...you are just restarting the cycle by raising the ammonia levels..
but i do understand that 20 people giving you different advice can be confusing..
and as i always tell folks.............

"THE MORE YOU MESS WITH YOUR TANKS ; THE MORE PROBLEMS YOU CREATE FOR YOURSELF"

had you left the tank alone you would be all done by now.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2015)

What lohachata is saying is leave your tank alone and let the ammonia go down to 0 naturally. 

I am having ammonia issues in my 5.5 gallon tank right now. Going to leave it alone today and possibly tomorrow to see where the ammonia goes, if it goes down=great, if it goes up=water change.

So I agree, leave your tank alone and let the ammonia go down to 0 naturally.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Okay, WildForFish, lohachata and Blue Moon, I think I have it.

I re-dosed before I saw WildForFish's post about NOT redosing- I have no idea how I missed his post because I have been checking here practically every hour for replies.

lohachata - I was going off of the fishless cycle information that says until the tank is cycled, it should get a drop of ammonia every day to keep the bugs fed (And that is literally what the tank got, 1 drop from a plastic dropper - that's probably why right at the end of the reading time I got a very low reading). I didn't realize the safe start changed that. I will put NO more ammonia in.

Blue Moon, you have been so helpful hanging in here with me, thank you!

I promise I am not the dolt I sound like - once the tank is cycled I know the basics and then some (I have been fish keeping for 15 years) - I just never did a fishless cycle - I'm not sure if I would do another!

Thanks again to everyone for their help, I could not have gotten through this without it!


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

And here I go being a bird brain again - I totally forgot to add this to my post. Have I really messed up my cycle with that dose? If I am understanding correctly, wait a few days and keep testing for ammonia. When the ammonia is zero, I am cycled? Or I am cycled now and doing an 80% water change as they instruct in the fishless cycle should take care of the slight ammonia?


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Leave it as is and retest all levels 24hrs from when you last dosed with ammonia.

Then let us know what your levels are.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Hi WildForFish,

My sincerest thanks to you for your continued support, time and advice!

These were the reading 24 hours after dosing with one very small drop of ammonia (One of those baby syringes):

NitrItes: 0

Ammonia - Was zero until one second after the reading time, then it went to a little below .25. It was very weird....zero and then a reading. I am not sure what to make of that.

NitrAtes: About 15

It was the second time the nitrItes were 0 since the Safe Start. The ammonia was 0 previous to this and was reading about .25 before I added the Safe Start. And when I say it went from 0 to the .25 in a second, it did. 

Where should I go from here?

Again, many thanks.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Here I am again  Posting today's (Sunday) readings:

Ammonia - .25

NitrItes - 0

NitrAtes - 15

It seems as if that small drop of ammonia I put in days ago is still lingering. 

Any advice would be appreciated as to what I should do - Thank you SO much!


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

hmmmmmmm....are you using anything like prime or some other dechlorinating agent or any other chemicals in the tank ?????
it seems like you are getting a false positive reading..i am thinking that your tank is done with the cycle..and that may be the the reason for the ammonia reading....i would add some fish...
if it were me....i would put the test kit away.. add some fish....and watch the fish.they will tell you if there is a problem...


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

At this point, I agree with Lohachata.

Consider the tank cycled, do a 10% water change ( do not use any dechlorinator ) and add the Betta and snails.

Feed lightly daily.

Re-test your levels in a week. 


Please let us know which dechlorinator you are using also.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Thank you again to both lohachata and WildForFish - I really don't know what I would have done without both of you!

I am using Stress Coat - what I liked about it is I have used it in the past with my Bettas with good results:

Stress Coat:
Makes tap water safe for fish - Removes chlorines and chloramines - Detoxifies heavy metals. Protects fish: The healing power of Aloe Vera - Proven to reduce fish stress - Replaces slime coat

Because I have a specialty Betta (Half Moon) with very flowing fins, I liked the fact that it had the Aloe Vera. I also liked that it replaced the slime coat.

I tested my water after using the Stress Coat and got 0 readings for ammonia, if that has any bearing on the false positive reading that lohachata mentioned.

I did see the Prime at the LFS when I was there...also everyone seems to recommend it - What is so great about it and do you both think I should buy it next time I am there? I almost did buy it but money is tight and I thought why buy it when I have something that works at home. 

WildForFish - I am not sure if the Safe Start changed the amount of the water change I should do - the fishless cycle instructions say to do an 80% water change after the tank is cycled. Would you stay with the 10%? I know you are very experienced so I will go with what you recommend. 

I was also going to test every other day - I am a bit of an anal person when it comes to my fish - I don't want any ammonia in the tank and if I see any, I was planning on doing partial water changes. Is that OK to do.

Again, both of you have hung in there with me through this dreadful cycle - you have both been so kind with your time and experience - Thank you both so much!


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Oh and WildForFish - Why not use dechlorinator in the water I am putting in? Thank you!


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2015)

I have used stress coat and it is a good product. Right now I am using Dechlor for my tanks. Just be careful not to use the stress coat when it expires, I had trouble with it when I used it because it expired. The stress coat will not work if/when it expires.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

phew it took me a bit to put to responses so they make sense to your questions 

1. _I am using Stress Coat_
Ok while I am not familiar with Stress Coat, it is a good declor product.

2. _I did see the Prime at the LFS_
Prime has been known to give a false positive reading of sorts = 
Prime detoxifies ammonia, not actually removing it but making it non-toxic to fish.
Testing still show the normal readings..

3. _I am not sure if the Safe Start changed the amount of the water change I should do - the fishless cycle instructions say to do an 80% water change after the tank is cycled. _
ok, do as the instructions indicate for completed cycle

4. _I was also going to test every other day_
Testing every other day is fine and water changes dictated by levels is a excellent plan of action.

5. _Why not use dechlorinator in the water I am putting in?_
Please disregard this instruction

6. _Thank you both so much!_
You are very welcome!

Please keep us updated as you go and ask if there are any questions or doubts.


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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Thank you Blue Moon for agreeing that Stress Coat is a good product - I feel very relieved!

WildForFish - you are such a Mentor! I so appreciate you sharing your knowledge and taking the time to help me with this mess. 

Now if I could ask you just a couple more questions and hopefully I will be out of your hair for a while!

The filter media is beyond funk but I know it is loaded with the beneficial bacteria the tank needs. How long do you think I should wait to change it?

When do you think it's safe to vacumn the gravel? Again, I don't want to start removing the good bugs.

And one silly question - how do you get the avatars by your name and information lol! I have tried every setting in my profile and cannot find it.

I have an appointment tomorrow, so I will be doing the tank on Tues. I will wait a little bit and post an update on how Cowboy and the snails are doing. I will be getting a few Ghost Shrimp and maybe a small school of rasboras...the jury is still out on that.

Once again, my thanks for everything!


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

1._The filter media is beyond funk but I know it is loaded with the beneficial bacteria the tank needs. How long do you think I should wait to change it?_
What type of filter are you using? 
If it is a cartridge type filter, it is best to rinse or swish the the loose material from the cartridge and reuse.
Never replace the cartridge unless it is literally falling apart.
When you feel the need to switch out a cartridge, you would seed a new one by adding the filter material to the filter along with the old one for a period of time then removing the old one at a later date. 

2. _When do you think it's safe to vacumn the gravel?_
I would not deep gravel vac for at least a month or so.
If you should have debris atop of the gravel, when you water change, just hover your drain hose over the gravel and the suction will pull the loose stuff.


3._ how do you get the avatars by your name and information_ 

User CP (control Panel) at the top of forum page
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## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

WildForFish - It is a cartridge filter that came with the whole aquarium deal but for monetary reasons (those cartridge refills are so expensive!) I buy the filter media and carbon in bulk and cut them to fit the filter box. I was aware to rinse the filter material out in used aquarium water but was not aware that you should keep them in as long as possible. I will do that from now on. And yes, thank you, I do usually seed a new filter by squeezing a new one in by the existing one and leaving it there for a month or so.

WildForFish - Your generosity in sharing your knowledge and time here is incredible! You are the epitomy of a lover of this hobby and you show so much pride and enjoyment in helping others. I REALLY could not have gotten to this point without all of your assistance. Thank you so very much!

I will check in in a week or so and let you know how the guys are doing.


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