# M. Auratus out of control?



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Hi guys, I've got a 72 gal tank with some different types of cichlids in it; for this issue I'm gonna mention the Red Devil, M. Auratus, Cynotilapia Afra (Chimate), and a Geophagus Jurupari. So everything is normally very, very peaceful and serene in this tank surprisingly. Sure, there is a little chasing, but never any nipping or anything like that. However, my poor little Geophagus turned up the other day badly beaten. He seemed to have been paralyzed in his rear half, and had some nasty bite marks all over him. It was bad enough that I had to euthanize him. I was pretty devastated, I loved that little guy. He was so cute when he moved around, and he was totally peaceful- I don't think I ever saw him chase anybody. Which, of course, is why somebody decided to bump him off. At first I suspected the Red Devil, because he towers over the other fish in the tank, and basically owns the place. When somebody tries his patience, he'll chase them off, but that's it. I've never seen him bite. I figured this was just an unfortunate and isolated incident.

Part 2 of the story- Since the demise of the Geophagus, my M. Auratus has been constantly harassing my Cynotilapia- NEVER did it before then. It drives me nuts, because the Cyno is the smallest guy in the aquarium, but is surprisingly ballsy for his size, and is just totally adorable. I love that fish. But he is even afraid to come out and eat during feeding time. I constantly see the Auratus going after him. Haven't seen him bite, and the Cyno has no visible damage, but it makes me sad for the guy. So at this point, I am suspecting the M. Auratus was the assailant for the Geophagus. He kept acting up, so I stuck him in our Oscar tank (there is a ton of room for him in there, and the Oscars are pretty decent sized) for the time being, until I can figure something out. I'll be monitoring the Oscar tank very closely while he's in there. 

Anybody have suggestions as to how I can calm this guy down, aside from beefing up the Cyno until he is too big and scary for the Auratus to mess with? I tried rearranging things in the aquarium today on my lunch break, but by the time I got home from work the Auratus was back to his old habit.

Just tested water, and it's all perfect. 0 NH4, 0 NO2, 0 NO3, ph 8.3, SG 1.001, crystal clear except for a mild green algae issue that I haven't been able to shake completely. 

Any ideas how I should go about dealing with my M. Auratus? I like him, and had to nurse him back to health one time when he got Malawi bloat, so I don't want to get rid of him.

Thanks!!!!


----------



## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

I put my meanines in confinement.

This establishes a new heirarchy in the tank, and he isn't the *c*o*c*k* (did that because of the cencoring) of the block anymore. 

Re-arrange the tank. Change it ALOT. By the way, what sort of hiding places do you have for it? How many caves?

Also, do you have any females to go with him? Females could reduce aggression against other fish. 72 gallons, you could add a few more females for the auratus and the cobue. 

If your THAT worried about it, you could get rid of him.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Thanks Laura,
They have several little hiding places, it's kind of neat because if you go look at the tank at night, when the house is dark, you can't even find a fish, but there are like 8 of them in there. I guess they all have little bedrooms  

I did totally move all the ornaments around, but the little bast^ard just wouldn't knock it off! I grew kind of attached to him because he got the bloat and I managed to save him, so I would hate to get rid of him. I think he has been on edge in the main tank for a while now though, his coloration is usually pretty dark and I think this guy does that when he's a little ticked. Strangely enough- I've had him in the Oscar tank for about 5 hours now (I've been checking on him every hour), and his color has gotten nicer than I've seen it in months. Heck maybe the Oscar tank is the place he wants to be! There are three Oscars in there, they aren't huge, but much bigger than the M. Auratus is, but he has been huddling up in one of the caves with them like they've been best buddies for years. They're so goofy- they have all this room in the tank, but they prefer to stay right next to each other most of the time. Strange little critters.... Since I've removed him from the 72 gallon tank, my cute little Cynotilapia is happier than I've seen him in a while. He's so cool looking, I just can't bear the though of having to euthanize him next. 

So I guess so far so good, however something's gonna have to give in a few months. I've going to be moving halfway across the country in September, and the Oscar tank belongs to my roommate.. Hopefully by then the Cyno will have gained some weight and will be able to hold his own. He is surprisingly tough for as small as he is, it just appears that he has met his match in the M. Auratus. 

Rojo (the Red Devil) still owns the tank of course. All other fish kneel before him. He's kind of like the "hammer of justice". He'll appear and put other fish in their places if he feels the balance is being upset.


----------



## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

That sounds just like my Mack daddy 









He's my big boy... you should see him... he literally dominates the tank!!


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

M. Auratus are the the terrors of the Mbuna community. The tend to end up alone in a tank. The only thing I can think of hearing is that they are less aggressive on a low-protein diet. But then I've also heard that if fish are craving protein and don't get it, the will "elect" an occupant of the tank for dinner.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

LOL! Maybe that's what happened in my tank! I try to give them a varied diet, some flake, some pellet, some live blackworms, freeze dried krill, occasional frozen bloodworms, and even a little piece of uncooked human shrimp every once in a while. 

HOPEFULLY he will be less aggressive in a tank with three Oscars that are way bigger than him... But only time will tell! 

Laura - Yeah, your guy has that look to him! He seems to have a fearless expression =D


----------



## Guest (Apr 14, 2007)

Auratus are usually terrors....so he's behaving normally IMO. You have a strange mix of fish there, but if it works, then leave them be. 

And I agree with ya, to be small, Afras are very bold little fish. 

Mbuna are usually kept in groups, which helps with aggression issues. I'm not sure what else is in the tank, besides what you've mentioned, so I can't tell if you have room, but if you could find the Auratus some females, it might calm him down....or atleast direct his attention elsewhere. The Afra might like some females as well.


----------



## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

Eraserhead said:


> ...HOPEFULLY he will be less aggressive in a tank with three Oscars that are way bigger than him... But only time will tell!


Size doesn't matter as far as male auratus are concerned. They're really among the most aggressive cichlids around (I once saw a 5" male auratus completely brutalize a foot long oscar). 

The manifestation of increased 'sudden' aggression you're seeing is due to your auratus maturing and is probably coinciding with its color transformation. Also, there's relatively (in mbuna terms) few fish in the tank. 12-20 additional targets, er, I mean fish may help spread the aggression around and prevent your auratus (but that would be too many fish for the tank you have). Hyperdominant species like auratus tend to carry out killing sprees in tanks with relatively few fish.



emc7 said:


> ...The only thing I can think of hearing is that they are less aggressive on a low-protein diet. But then I've also heard that if fish are craving protein and don't get it, the will "elect" an occupant of the tank for dinner.


Auratus are adapted to eating low-protein diets, and in a way it's the reason for their aggression. In the wild they graze on algae and similar plant matter off the rocks (along with any edible organisms living among it). It's not a very nutritious diet so they must constantly graze on this to fulfil their dietary requirements. To ensure they have enough to eat auratus (and a lot of other mbuna) stake out terroritories and fiercely defend the algae-covered rocks from intruders (by being aggressive). This aggression plays out in aquarium settings despite being offered more nutritious meals.


----------



## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

> 12-20 additional targets, er, I mean fish may help spread the aggression around and prevent your auratus (but that would be too many fish for the tank you have).


True, but you have to think in mbuna terms here. 12-20 fish is alright for a 72 gallon, even with a red devil in there. As long as he keeps the water clean I'm sure adding a few more (not as many as 20, but maybe a small group of females to each male) would be just fine. Overstocking helps control the aggression ALOT in my own experiance.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Wow I could really add several more? I just always hear people complaining about how you need 20 gallons per fish or some other garbage. My roommate has been keeping Cichlids for many years, and he tells me that as long as you keep the water quality impeccable, you can keep a ton of fish around. I did have a total of 11 fish in there (all juvenile), but one died while I was cleaning the tank a few weeks ago (I was devastated, he crawled up into this ornament that was like a maze, and apparently couldn't get out, although I was very careful to make sure that all fish were out of the ornaments), and then of course there was the Geophagus that was killed, and the M. Auratus who is in a different tank now. So it's only got 8 in it now! However the tank is VERY peaceful now  

Yay now I'm excited that I can get me another fish!!!


----------



## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

Oh yeah, you can have alot more in there... being that it is a 72 gallon, you have a good bit of room.

I have 25+ fish in a 55 gallon and they get along fine. Ever since I have overstocked the tank there have been less fights and more males focusing on their females. Matter of fact, I have 2 female afras holding right now... 

Now if those damned aurora cichlids would get to it....


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Wow lucky you!!  

I'm glad to hear that I can stock it with more fish, there are some people on here that constantly whine about people that put more than 3 Oscars in a 125 gallon tank and such. Three fish in such a huge tank are just boring! We have 3 Oscars in a 36 gallon tank and they are lovin' life. We've actually been thinking about putting a small fountainy pond thingy in the back yard (only a few feet apart) and putting the Oscars in there for the summer. I'm a little wary about it, but my roommate has seen people do that before, and the Oscars have done very well. It sure would be cool though!

On another note, I think one of my Oscars might be holding too!!! How can I tell for sure? She has a little pouch down by her cloaca that is a little enlarged. None of the other fish have it, and I have a hard time thinking it's any type of illness, because no fish has ever been sick in that tank, and the fish have been eating everything in sight. How can I tell for sure??

Thanks!!!!!

Bobby


----------



## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

In the end you will have a red devil alone in the tank.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Hahahahah, yes he OWNS the tank. I just gave them a couple pieces of Krill to tear apart, it's so much fun to watch! Whatever Rojo (the Red Devil) wants, he eats. He chases everybody around, but has exercised a lot of restraint. From what I've seen, he's never actually bitten anyone. Yet....


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't recall oscars being mouthbrooders-I think they guard eggs on substrate. Listen to Oscar people about oscar stocking. Mbuna (esp. aggresssive ones) do do much better in larger groups, but remember to up the filteration too. I don't know anybody else who keeps oscars with africans so I cant help there. A big outdoor pond-thingy (I've been looking at them at home-depot) sounds good to me, esp. if your climate is warm.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Oh I don't plan on keeping the Cichlid in with the Oscars for very long, just until I can get a female or two for him to play with, and let him forget about how much he hates my Afra.  I might grab another Cichlid or two to put in the big tank, since I did suffer those two losses within the last few weeks. After I lost the first one (he was a cobalt), all hell seemed to break loose. I have a canister filter that is rated for a 125 gallon tank, so I should be pretty set there. We are in Indiana, so our climate is anything but stable, though in the summer it tends to stay between 75 and 95 degrees air temp. We would definitely wait until mid June or so to put in the pond. It's been known to have a few 40 degree nihts well into May arond here... Heck it was 83 degrees about 2 weeks ago, then dropped 40 degrees one night! It's annoying because you never know what to wear...


----------



## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Trust me.. Your devil is small now. When he gets larger he will keep true to his name. I was lying when I siad you'd have only the RD in the tank. The other fish will be there, in the form of RD poo 

And out of curiosity, how big is your oscar tank? im an "oscar guy"... got a few meself


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Hehehe, I've heard the Red Devils can get up to 10 inches. I'll need to be buying a 200 gal tank for that, hopefully he holds off on that type of growth until I've got more spare cash laying around! We've got 2 Tiger Oscars, each is about 3 1/2 inches long, and an albino who is a little bigger (maybe 4 1/2 inches) in a 55 gal tank downstairs. And of course my naughty little M. Auratus... But he'll be coming back upstairs soon hopefully. I'm going to try to find him a female or two this week and see if that chills him out. 

Only one of the Oscars is mine, the Albino and one of the Tigers are my roommates. However, it looks like mine might be holding some eggs (I hope that's what it is at least!). How can I tell? It looks like it's got a little pouch in front of the cloaca that is maybe a half inch tall, and 3/4 inch long. If that's the case, then we are going to have to move those other fellas on out of there for a while. My roommate has another 55 gallon that he was going to toss the Albino is anyway, and then that only leaves his Tiger...


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Don't give him 1 female unless shes 3x his size. He'll just kill her.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Should I try to find him a couple females? How many do you think it would take?


----------



## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

2-3 would do the trick. 

If your afra is male, get him some girlies too... they are VERY agressive without females.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Oooh sweet, I would love to have more Afras. I really think my little guy is great, he is so cool looking. Except he has some stupid kind of brown fungus-ish growth on his nose. He had a little white fungus on there a few weeks ago, I treated a couple days with Pimafix and it went right away. Then 2 or 3 days ago it came back, but was more of a brownish color (Probably didn't help matters that he was getting bullied by the M. Auratus). After 1 day of Pimafix treatment, it became a much lighter shade of brown. I'm sure it'll go away, he sure hasn't been acting any different, still rambunctious and adorable as always.


----------



## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Just so ya know... the Red devil can actually get 15 inches if its a male (12 if its a female), and the oscars will each get a foot long.

Heresn a big devil


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

WOW what a beast! Oooh I hope he (she?) gets big like that. Mine seems to have grown very rapidly compared to my other fish, are they typically fast growing? Also, do you have any idea how I can tell if it is a male or female? You know what else is kind of strange, since I moved the M. Auratus out of the tank, the Red Devil has been hanging around outside of his tree stump thing all the time. Usually he comes out to eat, chase other people around a little, and say hello, but spends a lot of time hidden. Now he's been out constantly. I love it, because he is so cool looking! Very, very orange.


----------



## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes, they are very fast growers! Usually upwards of an inch a month untill about 7". In RD's its hard to sex them, the best way would be or you to get a photo of its vent and post it for us to decide.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

I'll do my best to get some photos of him! He is pretty calm when he's not chasing somebody around, so it shouldn't be too difficult to get him to 'stand' still. I suck at taking pictures of the fish though, I can never get any good ones! I'll see what I can do though 

An inch a month would prohbably be about right for this guy. I bought him at about 2 1/2 inches, and have had him foir around 4 months. He's nearly tripple the size of the next biggest fish in my tank!


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Well I went on an out-of-town fish finding mission last night, because we really don't have any good stores in the town I live in. There is a petco, but their cichlids are always so tiny that the Red Devil would just gulp them down. There is a great store about 30 miles from here, so that's where I went. 

Unfortunately, they didn't have ANY M. Auratus, male OR female!  Bummer... But I did break down and get a Yellow Lab and an Albino Redfin that they had there- awfully good lookin fish! They were reasonably sized. The amazing thing is, I got the first 4 guys that are in my tank in November or early December (only two are still around- one was accidentally killed while cleaning, he somehow got caught in a maze-like ornament. I swear to God I counted them all when I took the ornaments out to clean... And the other one was the M. Auratus's victim), and they were almost microscopic in size. I ordered them from petsolutions.com, and keep in mind that if you order a fish that says size:small, it is REALLY SMALL! The Lab is a little bigger than the albino, but they both 'looked' larger than the four originals in my tank. When I got them home, I found that the albino is about the same size as the four that I originally had. For some reason I just think of them as little tiny things. Maybe that's how it is when you have children too. You always think of them as your little babies. Hopefully I don't learn that lesson for several years :lol: 

Anyhow, I rearranged everything very well in the aquarium, and added the two new fish. They all spent time checking out their new surroundings, and are some happy fishies. I am thinking about reintroducing the M. Auratus tonight to see what happens.... Wish me luck!! :fun:


----------



## Guest (Apr 20, 2007)

Yellow labs are much more laid back than the fish you have in the tank. Good luck to him and I hope he/she doesn't get killed.


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Yeah, most everybody in the tank is pretty chill at this point. Even the Red Devil pretty much minds his own business (for the time being), he chases the others around occasionally, but he's not vindictive about it.

The M. Auratus is absolutely insufferable. I went down to check on him today, and one of the Oscars, MY Oscar to be specific, has had several of his fins torn up. Hmmm, I wonder who could have done that? :-x I decided to put him back in the 72 gal tank, I figured he would be fine now. Nope. After a little while, he was torturing the Afra again. I called Petco to see if they had any room for him, and as fate would have it, one of the employees there has a 125 gal tank that she is putting 2 other M. Auratuses in, and she took him!! So things all worked out!  

For a minute I debated sticking him in my roommate's 55 gal. He has a 5 year old Jack Dempsey, a 3 year old Cobalt, and 2 other pretty large guys in there that would have made a snack out of him... Bad idea there. 

I'm just glad it all worked out for the best!


----------



## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

Oops, for some reason it double posted. So go ahead and delete this. Sorry!!


----------



## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

Mbunas are agressive, and the Auratus is one of the most, the bad part is the agression isnt even conspecific. With these guys you have to pack em in. a cpl female wont help, they will just get the snot beat out of them as well. 15 of them in a tank will soread the agression around with some rock work. Even still you will have casualties until the dust settles in a few weeks after new introductions. Pack em in to get a colony of 15 or so, get rid of the other tank mates. and if that doesnt satisfy you, put them in a 100g with a small colony of Fronts and see how tough the Auratus reall is 

heres a link to a Black Calvus and a yellow lab that decided they were going to flare their fins at the wrong Front 

http://www.kwas.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=725


----------

