# Fish That Should Never Be Bought or Sold.. My Views



## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Hello All,
This is just a post to hopefully start a lively discussion on a topic I have been in plenty of discussions about. Being that I work at a pet store, these are 4 fish I believe should not be sold in Pet Stores and the reasons why:

*Iridescent Shark*: This is a fish that is beautiful when you see it as a 3'' baby, and they seem to be relatively popular, and this is a problem. This is a problem because most people don't know that these sharks can get as big as 48'' long! So unless you have a 1000 gallon tank in your house... you should steer clear. Another problem with these fish is that they are very skid-dish, it doesn't take much for them to be startled and swim face first into the side of the tank, which is very damaging to them. Please think of the fish, what are you gonna do with that fish when its 2 feet long and your pet store won't take it back? Please just save yourself the trouble.. go for the Tri-Color Shark or the Redtail shark as replacements..

*Red-Tailed Catfish/Shovelnose Catfish*: Again this is just another fish where people buy them for their looks and don't know what they are getting themselves into. Once again, unless you have a 1000 gallon tank and plan on keeping this 4 foot long monster of a catfish his whole life, just don't bother. Another problem is that catfish are a very strong fish and at a large size, can thrashing around in the tank and break either the tank, or something in the tank, which is deadly of course. There are very few pet shops that will take a fish in after a certain size and releasing a fish like this into the wild can be hazardous. Stick with Raphael cats as good replacements..

*Clown Knifefish*: Don't get me wrong, I love this fish, it is truly a gorgeous and wonderful looking fish, and I know it is immensely popular, its just not a good pet. This is another fish that will get 4 feet long at adult size, so go get your 1000 gallon out for him too. This is a fish I see brought back all the time with stunted deformities which ultimately keep it from being resold and then it has to be disposed of in other means, and thats just not fair. Again, save yourself the trouble and go with the African(9-12''), Ghost(17-20''), or Glass(15-17'') Knifefish instead

If you do decide to take on one of these fish, the best option is to contact the nearest aquarium when its time and see if they can take the fish in for you as opposed to any other option. I have found that most Aquariums are very receptive to taking in a fish they have the ability to house. 

Now its your turn, let me know what you think, disagree? Agree? Anything you'd like to add? I look forward to the replies!


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

I agree about the ID sharks. I do not know the other two fish, so I have no opinion on them. Right now I do have two baby id sharks, no more than 2 inches. I do realize they get massive. ( I also have a 4 inch one in another tank). At this point in time, I do not have a 100 gallon tank. I have a 36 gallon, but no 100 gallon,lol. I plan later on to get a much larger tank when they get that size. When I was young, about 8 years old, I had two id sharks that got to be about 9 inches and I did have to take them to the pet store and I was sad about that, but I think there needs to be a warning that comes with these fish because face it, not many people research fish before they buy them. When I was 8, i never researched my fish before I bought them (frankly, living in the sticks and not having a computer limited me to researching them). Now is much different, but joking what I hear customers say in pet stores, they do not research them.
I guess I am just rambling here, but I think there should be some warnings that come with certain fish or at least a care sheet.
If every pet store had to carry a care sheet for its animals, things would be much different. (Kinda like an MSDS for chemicals).
Anyways, thats Just my 2 cents.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Common plecostamus. I feel bad for these because it is so popular and people are absolutely amazed when they get big in their tank. Very few people will ever think to return it to a store, they will just let it stunt, or release it to the wild in inappropriate environments (aside from the disaster of releasing into the wild in the first place). Those who keep them now have a fish that cannot even turn around in the tank. I am infinitely grateful that someone told me this about them upfront. To have something like that happen to a fish in my care would crush me. 

I cringe at the thought of how many of these fish live in 10 and 20 gallon tanks. 

I will give a small kudos to our local PetCo for actually advertising that this fish will get 2 feet long. I want to post the picture of the kid holding one up at the lake- right next to that tank. Lets see how many people go for it then (though I know some will anyway).


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

dont forget the columbian sharks.
most pet stores mark them as freshwater and do not say anything about what happens when they get larger.
pets unlimited out my way is starting to state about some fish getting large like the arowana and barracuda (they say they are freshwater but you never know lol)


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## Delthane (Sep 2, 2008)

Another one that i hear a lot about are Pacu. After having looked them up on google images and having read about them, I agree when people say that they should not be sold.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

All Great points! I was going to put the Common Plecostomus in my list too but I didn't want to ramble on too long, a lot of people think they can just throw their common pleco into a pond not realizing that they WILL die over the winter.

Pacu is another great point even though my pet store does not sell those, nor do we take them in anymore but they are a absolute load to take on as well.

I am not too worried about columbian, aka silver tip shark, because they don't normally get that big, maybe 7'', but it is a valid point in that they are a brackish water fish, and they are normally not sold as that, which seriously shortens their life span.

Thanks for the great feedback! Lets hear some more!


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Don't forget guppies.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

I don't follow with the guppy comment.. is that a joke?


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

i'm confused too,lol


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Laugh a little folks


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

it must be a joke judging by the camo signature,lol


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

If he made it clear it was a joke I would laugh lol but its a little scary if its not! But this guy seems like hes full of jokes so I'll take it as that lol :lol:


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## Againsthecurent (Jan 22, 2009)

Dang Tallonebball, you need a sense of humor! 

Of course if you end up addicted to the guppies and the breeding you may need that 1000 gal. tank before long.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Haha my sense of humor has returned! and you make a valid point againstthecurrent... of course, a 1000 gallon tank with 1000 guppies would be quite a sight....
I just got a little intense because this post was sort of meant to be serious and help teach people and save certain fish from being mistreated by accident.. I don't want people Hatein on guppies! lol
but believe me, my sense of humor is far from gone!


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Shev's gots lots of humor in him  Guppy farm!


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm _dead_ serious. I've seen too many unsuspecting hobbyists fooled by their placid behavior, until it was too late.

I think it'd generally be a good idea to have a separate section for the fish needing a bit more experience/cash. I have nothing against clown knives being sold, it's just when an inexperienced and unsuspecting customer decides to get a little one. If they were matured just a bit longer, segregated from the noob fish (no offense), and made more expensive, then inexperienced people would think twice about getting them, and more experienced people would still have the opportunity to buy them. That'd be an ideal system, along with better training of employees and/or not duping customers into buying anything.

Then there are Chinese algae eaters passed off as amazing magical fish that clean your tank, but end up being evil and eating slime coats instead. leporinus are also often picked up by ignorant customers not expecting them to be the devil in fish form.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

I love it Shev! B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l
Chinese Algae Eaters are a complete nuisance and not only do they do almost nothing, they get up to 10" long and are mean as heck! Stick with the Flying Foxes folks..
And don't get me wrong, I have no problems with people buying a Clown Knifefish, I just believe that even if you are an experienced fish keeper, its just almost impossible for you to make a suitable home for them do to their huge size, I am only fine with it unless you seriously have a either a 1000 gallon tank, or pre-planned way to give them away when they are too big.


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Chinese High Fin Banded Shark aka Chinese sucker fish aka Freshwater Batfish....

These aren't as common as some of the others mentioned but they are out there and should NEVER be sold as aquarium fish. 
Sadly, I was one of those noobs that got duped. He was only about 4" when I bought him. I had him only two years and he had reached 8" when he died. I'm sure he was stunted. That fish became my baby and I nearly cried when I lost him. I tried to give him away to local aquariums and even offered to have him shipped to the San Diago zoo aquarium but no one wanted him. 

This fish is sold as a food fish in it's native land and is on the endangered list because of so many juveniles being harvested and sold in the aquarium trade and because of damming of their habitat. It can easily reach 36" and, bless his heart, gets UGLY as it gets older. Since it is only found in 1 river in the entire world (Upper Yangtze River in China), it won't be long before this fish is completely extinct.

Chinese Hi Fin Shark (4" Junvenile)


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Another great point Buggy! This is a perfect fish to be added to the list! My pet store also does not sell these but we have plenty of people trying to give them to us because they can't house them anymore.. its sad to see just the effect we are having on this species.. I really like where this thread is going and think its going to be very helpful to those who read it! keep it going people!


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

I saw something today at pets unlimited and I think its a fish that should not be sold. It did not have a name but my guess is that it was an alligator gar. I have a picture taken with my cell that is not that great, but he is about a foot and a half in a small tank. I think they get much larger than that I believe (around ten feet or so)
Anyways, my two cents yet again.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Alligator Gars were another fish I was going to put on my list... this fish is definetly a problem not only because they get, and this is no lie, at max 10 FEET. Now this is sort of misleading because it can take 50 years for them to get that big but yes it can happen. And with their long snouts they will eat anything they can. Yeah Komodo, your going to have to do something with that beast soon because you can't keep him.. unless you have like a 20 foot long, 15 foot wide tank in you living room that is lol


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## Hydr0 JoE (Jan 13, 2009)

Buggy said:


> Chinese High Fin Banded Shark aka Chinese sucker fish aka Freshwater Batfish....
> 
> These aren't as common as some of the others mentioned but they are out there and should NEVER be sold as aquarium fish.
> Sadly, I was one of those noobs that got duped. He was only about 4" when I bought him. I had him only two years and he had reached 8" when he died. I'm sure he was stunted. That fish became my baby and I nearly cried when I lost him. I tried to give him away to local aquariums and even offered to have him shipped to the San Diago zoo aquarium but no one wanted him.
> ...



awww poor guy, i would have cried if i had him for that long


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## Againsthecurent (Jan 22, 2009)

Tallonebball said:


> Alligator Gars were another fish I was going to put on my list... this fish is definetly a problem not only because they get, and this is no lie, at max 10 FEET. Now this is sort of misleading because it can take 50 years for them to get that big but yes it can happen. And with their long snouts they will eat anything they can. Yeah Komodo, your going to have to do something with that beast soon because you can't keep him.. unless you have like a 20 foot long, 15 foot wide tank in you living room that is lol


They can get 10 and larger. I would get rid of the word "max" in front of the "10 feet" since they can get much larger. There have been a few in the wild that researchers have found at 18-20 feet.

Edited to add: They belong in no tank IMO, unless you are an institution that can home fish of that size. Their numbers are not what they once were.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Jezz Againsthecurrent get a sense of humor! obviously no one has a 20 foot long, 15 foot wide tank in their living room! it was a joke! Haha just getting ya back! But again its a another good point, and another great example of just why some of these fish should never be bought or sold, not only is it unfair to the fish, it can also lead to things as large as extinction to species. 
And thanks for the extra info, I def didn't even know they could get that big, just proves our point even better!
Oh and I haven't been in the internet long enough to know what IMO means, can I get help with that? lol


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

my list of fish that should not be able to have unless u have a big tank

irridescant shark
red tail/tigershovelnose cat
pacu
alligator gar
*arapaima gigas this is the one u have to be able to prove to have a huge tank in my opinion*
wells catfish
clown knife dont usually grow to be anywhere near four feet long in home aquaria even if put in the right setup but i do agree with u on it

those are just some to name i have many others


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## wrestlerboy (Apr 8, 2009)

I think a lot of beginners get tricked by juvinile non-dwarf plecos


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

i dont have that alligator gar, taht was at a pet store. lol


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Oh well thats good komodo! I didn't think you would do something like that, and yes frogman those have all been covered except for the gigas which is another great fish for the list, the common pleco has also been listed too but its good to see that more than one person realizes that they should be on the list as well, keep it coming people this is becoming what I think could be a very useful thread for this site! i would like to hear a couple more of the moderators and senior members chime in as well!


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

I have a few plecos that were sold to me as dwarf plecos but I do not think they are. This is not a big deal to me since I do want a very large tank later in life. I will try to get some pics of them so maybe someone can let me know what species of pleco they are.
ironically they are from walmart for under 4 bucks each,lol


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## Againsthecurent (Jan 22, 2009)

Tallonebball said:


> Oh and I haven't been in the internet long enough to know what IMO means, can I get help with that? lol


IMO = in my opinion


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

can anyone tell me what species of pleco this is?


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2009)

Komodo...talk to Lohachata. he will help you out.


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm not a big fan of "never" -- there might be somebody someplace with a big enough indoor pond.
But I am a big fan of "special order, only after you show me your indoor pond" -- I don't think any of these fishes should be available for "impulse buys".
ie -
If you are truly prepared to care for a red-tail cat for life, then go ahead and setup the proper indoor pond, get it running for at least 6 months, then come see me and order it, and I'll gladly sell you that fish. But don't expect me to order it for you for your 30g tank !

That being said - check out the Responsible Fishkeeping Initiative:
http://www.fishchannel.com/rfi.aspx

I talked with David Lass about this at the NEC convention, and got a nifty bumper sticker thats going on my truck as soon as the bumper gets cleaned :mrgreen:


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Good website, exactly what I am talking about. Thanks!


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

just for americans or can other people of the world join too? I ask this because of the zip code thing. Thanks


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

some more

the goonch catfish
goliath african tiger fish
sturgeon this fish should nvr be sold
paddlefish
*armatus i love this fish but most people shouldnt keep them*
C. Lopis
electric eel

just some more ill add some more later


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

thats a serious list,lol.
my university had sturgeons in a massive tank. I don't know how many gallons, they were liek swimming pools


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

yeh that is on occasions when they should be kept when biologist kno how to take care of them


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

they were for studying and it was a restricted zone, very few got to see it


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Yeah I actually consider sturgeons a cold water pond fish, I have actually never seen sold in a pet store.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Forgman you need to give us some explanations with those lists


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

explanations they get to damn big thats my explanation


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

and many like the sturgeon require very specific requirements that most aquarist are not able to give them


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Ok ok didn't mean to offend man, I obviously know they get too big but some people don't, I just want this to be a helpful tool. Again, I didn't mean to offend.


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

*some pics*

alligator gar










arapaima gigas










goonch catfish my favorite catfish










paddle fish










sturgeon










african tiger fish










electric eel 










wels catfish


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

none offense taken man just a little touchy today didnt have the best day sorry about that man 

some explanations tho

paddlefish: gets to big and to properly care for this beast a circular tank works the best cause it will always be running its nose into the glass with a square tank

sturgeon: to hard to care for

arapaima: get to big 

alligator gar: get to big


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

I have only seen the alligator gar in pet stores in my area. I have never seen the other guys around...which is probably a good thing according to the picture,lol


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

yeh most u wont see there is a subspecies of the goonch catfish that is more commonly sold

there are only a few sturgeon sold and same with paddle fish

wels catfish are also not very common only seen a few people get those 

and alligator gars are sort of commonly sold fish


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

i feel bad for teh alligator gar at the pets unlimited out my way. in like a 25 galon long tank, cant do much really.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Wow those pictures are even better than any explanation! If thats not enough to scare some people I don't know what is! Where do you live frogman? Im from virginia and even though I've heard of all these fish, I have never seen them in a pet store, though I have seen them sold online which is atrocious in my opinion. But heck yeah Frogman thats what I'm looking for! I really hope this post saves some awesome fish that are being mistreated...


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

I stick with my theory that every pet store should have a care sheet for all their pets. this would solve the problems of baby fish being sold that should not be sold at all.


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

im from indiana i havent seen many of these fish sold but out in california some of those i have listed are common fish and online has every fish i listed


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

I'm more of the theory that The pets stores need to just completely stop selling these fish, if they stop buying from the sellers than the sellers will stop selling. And a lot fo fish will be saved from people who either don't know or don't care


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

agreed very true


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## johnwayne1215 (Apr 22, 2009)

The picture is a little blurry, but I'd say its the florida needle-nose gar, I've got a quite a few of them in the river behind my house, some of them up to 4 or 5 feet long. These definitely shouldn't be kept in an aquarium.

P.s. This is in response to komodo's photo, it doesn't look to be the alligator gar fish due to its brown spotted markings, could be wrong, but I've lived with these in my backyard for 19 years.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

the picture (if ur talking to me about the gar) was with a camera phone (sorry).
I like ur theory better, but i think my idea will happen before your theory.
pet stores want to make money just like any business, but if they are forced to tell the truth about the fish, then the buyers will not buy and the demand will go down and then they will stop buying them from wholesalers.
problem solved


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Back to the OT... I'm not a big fan of 'never' as I believe people have the right to make choices, however ill-informed and stupid they may be. I agree that there should be some generally agreed upon rules to fishkeeping, but I would never support laws to enforce such rules. We're smart people. We can work it out without involving the government.

But as for a fish that doesn't belong in a tank at all, I think the fish that is probably the most commonly kept is the obvious example: comet goldfish. These fish belong in a good-sized pond, not a tank of any sort.


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

Alligator gars taking forever to get huge? Well, maybe past a few feet, but they're actually quite fast growers, and that pic is definitely a gator. I would put down gar, generally, as a fish that shouldn't be stocked in an lfs, unless specifically asked for. I had a florida gar, great fish, that aren't the most active until feeding time.
Needlenose fish (xenentodon cancila) or any of the "fake gars" are also something I would put on the list. Most don't get past 9-13 inches, but not many people can properly care for them... and they've been a huge "impulse" fish for people lately.

I'm surprised I haven't seen arowana on here yet either. Much more common than many posted. Stuff like the electric eel, goliath tigerfish, etc. are in the trade... but not the easiest/cheapest fish to buy.

I think smaller, common fish should also be stated... since they're much more easily obtained than those listed... but I personally can't think right now xD


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Tallonebball said:


> I love it Shev! B-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l
> Chinese Algae Eaters are a complete nuisance and not only do they do almost nothing, they get up to 10" long and are mean as heck! Stick with the Flying Foxes folks..
> And don't get me wrong, I have no problems with people buying a Clown Knifefish, I just believe that even if you are an experienced fish keeper, its just almost impossible for you to make a suitable home for them do to their huge size, I am only fine with it unless you seriously have a either a 1000 gallon tank, or pre-planned way to give them away when they are too big.


I really wish flying foxes were as readily available as SAE's. I've never seen one before in all of Montana.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Arowannas are another good fish for the list, yeah Im surprised I forgot them and now one else had said anything too.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

pets unlimited here sells them and all they say is they get LARGE
they also sold piranhas there which is an iffy topic in my opinion.
if fact, the staff got bite by them,lol. but a pretty site


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

now we must wake up to reality....
we have a group of people here that are saying that certain fish should not be sold..
while there is good reasoning behind this; we must all look at a much bigger picture..
one species leads to another , to another and so on.until it becomes house bill 669 or whatever it is; that will pretty much wipe out the fishkeeping hobby.
as i have stated before; i am all for this bill.. but i believe that it needs to be properly executed.."all" nonnative species should be banned and eradicated...
we can start with fish reptiles and amphibians... go to cats and dogs.. then move on to horses, cattle,pigs, goats and such... and then we can move on to humans..even the indians are not native to this country.. and humans are the most invasive of all.... so lets get rid of everything...

do we really want to turn this country into the kind of a dictatorship that controls everything we do..


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

We are talking about changing impulse buying here, not banning the world,lol.
certain fish should not be for sale for general public, just those who have the knowledge, time, money and equipment to house and care for them.

also, I do not see any indians or humans for sale at pet stores.......lol


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2009)

lohachata said:


> the indians are not native to this country.. and humans are the most invasive of all.... so lets get rid of everything...
> 
> do we really want to turn this country into the kind of a dictatorship that controls everything we do..


?!?!?!?!?!?!? u lost me there


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Zakk said:


> ?!?!?!?!?!?!? u lost me there


Heh, often times native americans are referred to as Indians here in America.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

lol...... not indians from india.. but those that are referred to as native americans; or american indians..but they migrated to north america from asia.

i think that a few are missing my point here.. here is a small group of people looking at setting up who should or should not be able to own certain fish...i would consider that to be infringing upon anothers rights... be it good , bad or otherwise; in this country we have the right to own what we wish to own..


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

2 things:
1) so no animal rights in america?
2) just cuz you can do something, doesnt mean you should. Anyone can drive a car, but without a license they are doing it illegally. anyone can shoot a gun, but they should have a license or else its illegal.
I think the same should be for some fish.
We can go all art studenty (yes i made up a word here)and say its against rights, but frankly this is getting off topic, this is about fish that should not be sold because of their size and various reasons.
Facts come down to it, yes its against people's rights, but people have to stop being selfish and start worrying about their pets, instead of just saying hey that looks cool, lets get it.


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

In this case, he is saying certain fish "shouldn't" be sold because of how often it becomes cruel for these fish to be kept in captivity. Most current laws(if not all) that are blocking certain fish from being sold/imported is to protect fish species as a whole. Fish that could be released and easily compete with or destroy native species are generally prohibited, along with endangered or just rare fish where the trade would hurt that species as a whole.

Unfortunately with our system today, the competition pushes many pet stores into selling anything they can in order to make a buck. The only method I see other than legally barring fish that would go along with our capitalistic guidelines would be for pet stores to band together and increase the price of certain fish, making a price floor, kinda like with oil. This would still allow capable hobbyists of having the fish available, and would deter the average fish keeper from buying a ID shark over a bala shark. The fish win, the fish sellers win, the fish buyers lose some, and importers should come out even assuming the demand for easier to keep fish would go up as much as the demand for harder to keep fish would go down.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

very good point. supply vs demand equilibrium

higher the price (macroeconomic theory) lower the demand.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

I think Shev has it right, My whole point in starting this thread was not to have these fish banned, I'm mean lets face it, there is no way in heck I would ever be able to get pet stores to stop selling common plecos, they just make too much money. The point of this thread was to open eyes and inform, I'm dead serious that If you want to build a 1000 gallon tank in you basement then go ahead and buy any fish that you are CAPABLE of taking care of. I am also serious that if you read this and still go out and buy these fish, then please make sure you have some proper way of disposing of them planned out beforehand. I am never for people losing rights, but I am all for people making informed decisions, and thats all I want this thread to help people do. I really hope it is!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, guess what?
HR 669 has been put on the fast track to approval. I don't know how or why, but it probably has something to do with a whole bunch of idiots saying stupid things, like those in this thread, to the very wrong, even stupider people.
Congratulations, Tallonebball, you're probably about to get your wish. It looks like ALL fish will no longer be sold very soon, not just the ones you don't like.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

My bad old salt, it was just a discussion man, didn't know I ruled congress and made all the decisions for the world. And maybe you should read the whole thread before you call me an idiot because I have made it clear more than one time that I am not for the banning of fish being sold. I am for the awareness that people need before buying said fish. I didn't think I was coming on this forum to be made fun of but I guess its a free world and people can say what they want. Ill take this one on the chin, im sorry for getting fish banned from being sold everyone.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Oh and whoever thinks I don't LIKE fish is even stupider than me, my freaking message was to save certain fish that have been mistreated since the aquahobbist started this hobby, not to end the hobby. I guess I'm wrong though, anybody can buy anything they want I guess. Go ahead and delete this post now, I thought it was good but apparently I was way off.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

thank you TOS.....part of the point i was trying to make...... they do not stop at just 1 or 2...this bill is "all nonnative species".. 
that is why i said do it right and eliminate "all" nonnative species...which would include all plants and animals..which would include us...
komodo..don't be starting on guns now.sounds like you are trying to be the new hitler.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

how do I sound like the new hilter......?:admin:

you guys are going and removing people's rights yourself right now.
the starter of this thread just wants people to know some fish that should not be sold to the average fish owner.
now your trying to blame him for fish being banned......
its a good try to blame your area's problems on one person, but frankly i do not think one person can change a whoel country's mind unless that country is dumber than a kid drinking liquid mercury.

this is for suggestion thread for new and experienced fish owners about certain fish they may want to avoid, not a thread to bully people


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

oookay, fish keeping may be something really close to your heart, but let's start taking our meds again, along with a deep breath, then actually read the thread. Tallonebball is merely saying there are certain fish that he thinks _shouldn't_ be so readily available. I emphasize "shouldn't" because certain people tend to jump to the conclusion that this means "the government should intervene".

H.R 669 is defininitely getting (over)hyped up, but I'd like to see how it's "on the fast track". Is that info from PETA themselves? Or another heavily involved and biased group?


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

what is H.R 669. i am not from the area and as far as I know its not in canada.


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

i like all fish i would just give my two cents on some fish that do get mistreated just because the owner cant provide a big enough tank


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i agree that there are certain fish that really do not belong in the hobby.. but you have to understand that the only way to keep shops from selling them is to create laws that forbid it... now politics comes into play.. set up a list of 25 species that should not be sold; and by the time that hits the house, it will be 400 pages long with thousands of species on the list.. just like HR669 is doing... just like lays potato chips.. bet you can't do just one.. 
does anyone here feel that they have the right to dictate to people what they can or cannot buy or sell? and how do we propose to keep shop owners honest with their customers? 
everything is not just black and white...and as i said before...we must look at a far bigger picture.....
komodo..as far as the gun thing..since that is off topic here; we can talk it in the watering hole if you would like.. you could learn some interesting stuff.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

thanks for the invite, but I woudl prefer not to be compared to a one of the most evil dictators of the known world. a little immature and extremely uncalled for from a moderator.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Wow folks, Im sorry I started such a commotion, this thread was really not meant to ruin the fish keeping hobby, I was meant as a way to keep people from making a mistake when they buy certain fish. I'll admit the name of the thread is a little misleading but I didn't think that "Fish That Should Come With a Care Sheet to Keep People From Making a Big Mistake" was catchy enough lol. It was meant to create AWARENESS, I am NOT for H.R 669, check my Facebook groups and you'll see that I am in the very group TOS is telling people to join. Lets face it folks, part of the reason H.R. 669 is getting so much attention is because people buy fish they can't handle and then throw them in the wild when they get too big, which is mostly what I'm trying to avoid. If you have a problem with what I'm saying, lets be an adult and make an argument instead of jumping to conclusions and calling me, and everyone else in this thread, Idiots. Letting your anger get the best of you is not a smart way to stop a bill people, being rational is.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

HR 669 is still mired in committee. Not fast-tracked. Nothing of the sort.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-669


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I do think it is important to recognize that this was intended to be a discussion about things that *probably shouldn't be sold in stores*. It is not a discussion saying that they absolutely cannot be sold in stores, or that we should actually move to ban from stores. That is an entirely different issue that is obviously very touchy. 

Name calling is never a good idea. Would it be possible to get some points across without putting people down? It degrades everyone in the interaction, especially the one calling names. It speaks to character, be above it and make your point productively and all adult like. Hopefully that can be accomplished very very quickly.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Thank you obsidian. I like this site very much, I am not trying to do anything to upset or degrade anyone or their point of view. I just wanted this to be a fun discussion.


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## Mr. Puffer (Mar 26, 2007)

COM said:


> HR 669 is still mired in committee. Not fast-tracked. Nothing of the sort.
> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-669


Beat me to it... And in all honesty has anyone really looked into this at all? I read over the bill and from what I gather its to prevent the import of any species of animal that will be a detriment to the Economy and or Environment. Meaning anything that can and will adapt and survive to the environments given in the different areas of the country. And then have an adverse effect on that environment they have adapted to.

To me this doesn't affect all that many tropical aquarium fish that are imported. Perhaps some yes, but do you honestly think the government is going to ban the import of African Cichlids? I very highly doubt there is a freshwater lake in the country that could support them... let alone hundreds of other species that are found all over the world. Now something like Lamprey which migrated into the Great Lakes and are now a problem pest, that to me is what they are planning on banning.

This all will blow over though as more then likely the bill will get overlooked and tossed aside. Do you really think with the crumbling economy the Senate and House care so much about this? I think they have bigger fish to fry.... No pun intended.

Thats just my $0.2


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

If you were to read the bill, Mr. Puffer, you would see that yes, indeed, they are planing to ban all african cichlids AS WELL AS ban all interstate traffic on them and all other tropical fish. There is a good reason to be enraged about this. Oh, sure, the plan is to compile and release a list of "approved" species in 37 months, but in 3 years there won't be an industry left to import them.

The Idiots I was referring to were politicians and PETA types, not you guys.


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## Mr. Puffer (Mar 26, 2007)

Ahhh right on salt... I didn't get too in-depth but just briefly scanned over it while working on a stack of paperwork last night. But anywho I really doubt this will pass. There is just way to many other pressing matters for congress to worry about currently.

And if it does... I will be putting my foot in my mouth, and then shaking my fist vigorously at our ( insert sarcasm ) oh so insightful government. :-x


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2009)

lohachata said:


> i think that a few are missing my point here.. here is a small group of people looking at setting up who should or should not be able to own certain fish...i would consider that to be infringing upon anothers rights... be it good , bad or otherwise; in this country we have the right to own what we wish to own..


i agree John. no one should determine what you want to do with the freedom given, provided it does not infringe on others privacy or freedom. personally, think its total bull**************** that they even trying to pass that bill. you never know, some one maybe getting a kickback for it.

cheers!


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Ok guys, ease up here. Talloneball didn't start this thread to gather supporters to sign a petition to have the sale of all lunker fish banned from the free world. He just thought by listing some of the more commonly sold fish in the hobby that are a bad idea to try to keep in the home aquarium it would deter uninformed people from making a big mistake. I think it was a very good idea to bring this subject up. How many times have we all seen newbs harrassed, flamed and picked apart for buying a tank buster fish because "the pet store guy" said it would be fine only to find out from us that it will get 2' long and eat the family cat? 
This is what this forum is all about...educating people about the hobby and giving insite to those who don't know where else to look.
And komod simply said that shooting a gun without a license is illigal...and he is absolutely right. He didn't say take guns away from people and make it illegal to own them. I see nothing "dictatoral" about that statement. 
I understand the more advanced fishkeepers are upset about the house bill to ban fish but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with what this thread is about.
Would it help if I changed the name of the topic to "Fish that should not be sold by the average fish store to the average fish hobbiest"?


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

thought of a new one,lol.
featherfin syno if you have any other bottom feeders in the tank that it is going into.
I have been told it depends on the fish, but my female one is a bugger and has injured my 3 raphael catfish


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Please Buggy! change it, do something to get some of these people off my back, I don't care if you just straight up delete this thread, I just don't want to be pegged as something I'm not, and yes TOS you directly used my name and accused me of wanting to pass this bill so don't act like you weren't targeting anyone in this thread please. I think that was extremely unfair and out of line. If your looking for an enemy, take it out on PETA, not me. And I thank Komodo, Shev, Obsidian, and Buggy for trying to help me convey my message, Thank You all.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

TheOldSalt said:


> a whole *bunch of idiots saying stupid things, like those in this thread*, to the very wrong, even stupider people.
> Congratulations, Tallonebball, you're probably about to get your wish. It looks like ALL fish will no longer be sold very soon, not just the ones you don't like.


Own up to what you said TOS, maybe you said something that could be taken out of context just like me?


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## Againsthecurent (Jan 22, 2009)

I do believe we need to educate new people to the hobby, but Tallonebball your thread was written poorly if it's just a suggestion. Your first comment of: "these are 4 fish I believe should not be sold in Pet Stores and the reasons why". This is not stated as a recommendation, but as a complete ban on such. The title "Fish That Should Never Be Bought or Sold" is the same type of statement. How else do you want people to take it (on a written forum) when it's is what you have stated.



shev said:


> .R 669 is defininitely getting (over)hyped up, but I'd like to see how it's "on the fast track". Is that info from PETA themselves? Or another heavily involved and biased group?


I get tired of hearing this. People sit and claim that a bill is "over hyped". Why does it have to be on the fast track for you to be concerned? Isn't it enough that it's on the books already? Our government continues to do more and more behind closed doors. Would you prefer to wait until it is on the fast track and possibly too late? The "over hyped" mentality concerns me. There are times where a bill goes nowhere and your hear "see, it was all over nothing". But that is most times not the case. Many times it's because there were enough people making their opinion heard. Everyone should be careful when it comes to taking people’s rights away, even when it doesn't affect you, some day it may. 

Sorry guys, but I will have to agree with lohachata on this one. This kind of talk and mentality is what turns into unneeded laws that restrict us all. Try to keep it to educational purposes and not demand statements that started this thread. That is my opinion.



komodo182 said:


> thanks for the invite, but I woudl prefer not to be compared to a one of the most evil dictators of the known world. a little immature and extremely uncalled for from a moderator.


Some of the statements about guns are a touchy subject, such as you statment about guns licensing. Licensing of firearms was a technique used by Hitler to implement gun control. I would love to discuss this in the water hole with you if you like. No name calling.


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## Againsthecurent (Jan 22, 2009)

Buggy said:


> And komod simply said that shooting a gun without a license is illigal...and he is absolutely right. He didn't say take guns away from people and make it illegal to own them. I see nothing "dictatoral" about that statement.


Sorry Buggy, but that is not entirely true. In some areas of the country people's rights have been taken away through licensing. Most areas you do not need a license. To make the insinuation gets touchy to some. After you have been attacked time after time it wears thin to have to hear it.

Sorry, off subject again.


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

"Should" =/= "government should intervene"

Againsthecurent, i think you'd be surprised at how many bills are proposed and never go anywhere, or how ridiculous some bills are.

Anyway, just wanted to throw this in here. I'm a big advocate of the logic used in this thread, very libertarian, I love it. Minimal government intervention, from fish to guns and drugs. This is why I use the word "should" how it "should" be used. People shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the government is obligated to regulate everything just because people have opinions on how something "should" go. I think people "shouldn't" smoke in restaurants right next to me, but I definitely don't want the government making rules about it, it should be up to the restaurant owner, the same way selling these fish or not should be up to the pet store owner, not the government.

edit: (to an extent) lol.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Wow this thread has gone completely over the top, I have already stated that I worded things incorrectly Againstthecurrent, I have already owned up to that. And if I'm not correct, you made some posts early in the thread that went with what I said because you understood what I really meant, there are too many people judging the book by its cover right now instead of reading the thread. I would rather have this thread deleted immediately than be associated with someone who is trying to advocate for H.R. 669. I apologize to TOS and anyone else whom I may have offended by starting this thread, Consider me done with it, I don't want to be associated with it anymore and would rather just have it deleted if it can be done. Again, I am sorry for the commotion, this is a very good site and I do not want to undermine it.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

still not a fan of the hitler comment. what if i was jewish? what if my family died because of hitler, etc.

but anyways,
its just opinions here and to shev, my province has banned smoking in public places and its worked great. no one has to fear going to a bar and getting cancer from smoke. they only have to worry about alcohol poisoning and get cancer from the poly plastics in the cups,lol.
cheers


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## Againsthecurent (Jan 22, 2009)

Shev; I am fully aware at how many bills are proposed and never go anywhere, or how ridiculous some bills are. But, there are some ridiculous bills that do make it. It is our responsibility as citizens of this country to keep tabs on them.

Tallonebball; I posted to this thread hoping that a suggestion (education for others) is what you were trying to make and not a demand as written. I am glad to learn that this is the case.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

*sigh*

"_... a whole bunch of idiots_" = The sponsors of this bill
"_saying stupid things_" = "these and other fish should not be allowed"
"_like those_ (THINGS ) _ in this thread_"
"_to the very wrong, even stupider people_" = people who donate money and the politicians

Fine. I left out the word "things" and caused confusion. Sorry about that. It should have been easy enough to figure out, but apparently it wasn't. It made sense to me at the time.

As for my claiming that you don't want these fish sold...well.. you pretty much declared that one yourself. Of course, NOW that seems to not be the case, but at the time, it did. Now everything has changed.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Im sorry TOS, It was all a big mistake, I understand that the way I worded this post was wrong but you see, I didn't think I would cause an uproar so I didn't choose my word carefully enough because I didn't realize the effect they could have or how they would be misleading. I am all for what you are calling for with HR669 TOS, your a very smart man and the last thing I wanted to do was step on your toes, I have a great deal of respect for you. Maybe this thread should be deleted and started over in the right way because I still believe if its done right this thread could have been very helpful, the problem was that I was the one who wrote it.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

Good to know. Thanks.


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

I think this thread needs a mulligan,lol


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

Change the thread, put it into BETTER words, and delete the 3 pages of comments not pertaining to the subject. Seriously, yet another thread that could possibly help out, that turns into a giant pile of nothing.
If someone wants to argue about HR 669, blah, then start a new topic about it, or talk on the one (that I think) has already been started.
If you want people to continually return to this site, and share what they know on FISH, don't take everything down multiple different routes. There's been the countless political threads, obama, etc. that dominate the new threads everytime I come back to this site, and it's a huge turn off.


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## wrestlerboy (Apr 8, 2009)

that pleco looks like a candystripe pleco,komodo,theyre a dwarf spieces


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## komodo182 (Apr 14, 2009)

thats what I like to hear. Sorry the picture was bad but they are pretty small right now.

Thanks for the help


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## Sunshinessmile (Apr 21, 2009)

the local super pet has a sting ray, half dollar size(for now) and 20 or so little bitty flounders....


im just not thinking thats right... unless im missing something....


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'm with Red on this. Never say never. There are a few monsterfishkeeppers who can handle most anything. But its also irresponsible to sell fish that are likely to outgrow 99.99% of the tanks. Does every local petstore need tanks full of peacock bass, oscars, Pacu and goldfish? Go on craigslist and count the unwanted Pacu and Oscars. Someone should do this daily for a year. Someone should post a top 20, un"rehomeable" list. Can't we be responsible without legislation? Banning imports of unlisted species will prevent us from getting small, easy to care for, beautiful fish established in breeding populations and stick us with whats already in Florida's ponds. Oppose the bill and support responsible pet ownership and education. 

By the way, IR sharks are perfectly acceptable food fish. If you want to raise them in a pond to eating size, go ahead. Because people do this in Asia, they are so cheap compared to other fish that pet stores buy them in quantity. But for a store to sell them as 'aquarium' fish borders on fraud.


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## Artemis JT (Apr 26, 2009)

komodo182 said:


> I saw something today at pets unlimited and I think its a fish that should not be sold. It did not have a name but my guess is that it was an alligator gar. I have a picture taken with my cell that is not that great, but he is about a foot and a half in a small tank. I think they get much larger than that I believe (around ten feet or so)
> Anyways, my two cents yet again.




that is a spotted gar, not an alligator.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Woot! I went to PetSmart today and found an actual smart fish keeper  She was talking to me about the fish that she hates that they sell, such as their pacu, common plecos, and snooks. She has a 2 foot common in her 200 gallon tank (bought it before she knew how big it gets and now doesn't like how ugly it is LOL). She wants to build a 600 gallon tank and I pointed her this way at you John. Be nice


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Wow I can't believe this post is still going lol, maybe I should start a new one that is more along with what I really wanted it to be? lol This thread got waaaaaaaaaaay off topic lol


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