# Species advice needed...



## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

I am sure this is about one of the more odd questions you will have read on this forum but...I am a fan of Bonsai and I have this idea of making a "pond bonsai". In this Bonsai I would like to have 3 trees and 5 small fish. I would use a 3- 5 gallon container that is not glass so that you could only see the fish from the top. In the center of the pot I would put some type of post that the trees would set on so that they are only under about 1-2 inches of water, that would give the fish room swim and they could have the roots to "play" in too.

I was looking for a type of fish that when viewed from above would look like a "mini-koi". I would only want these fish to get one to two inches long and have colored "spots" like Koi can. If there are not any species that look like that and only grow to that size, would it be possible to "bonsai" Koi? (meaning to stunt their growth but keeping them in a 3-5 gallon tank)

As a reminder size, spots, and what the fish looks like from above are most important. I hope that there is something that I can use for this idea, because I think it would make a really great setup.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Don't stunt fish, they die. Endler's livebearers are cool, but if you put in 5, you'd have 30 before you know it. I would only recommend one betta per container, they are very colorful and don't mind stationary water, but i seldom see spots.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

What the..? No, you can't bonsai koi. What's the matter with you? Good grief.

Look Bonsai is an ancient japanese art, and koi breeding is an ancient japanese art. If Koi could be bonsai'ed, they would have figured it out long ago.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

Yeah, I did not think that you could "Bonsai Koi" but who knows...you can stunt the growth of plants and even humans though malnutrition...

I looked at photos of Endler's livebearers and there are some that have multi colored spots like Koi do...I would still like some other ideas for first that would be nice for this project.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

Well...theoretically you could stunt its growth through poor care and nutrition...but to be honest, you need to be pretty messed up to want to. Sorry to be so blunt.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

trashion said:


> Well...theoretically you could stunt its growth through poor care and nutrition...but to be honest, you need to be pretty messed up to want to. Sorry to be so blunt.



Is is any different then stunting the growth of a living tree? I see no difference... Is it more messed up then keeping chickens packed so tight that they can not even have room...










or 










All so we can have eggs or chicken to eat...really how happy do you think those chicken are. You should notice that I used that as a second option next to finding a smaller species of fish that would work and as soon as I learned that it would kill the fish I did drop the idea...I am not out to kill or even hurt anything that is living.

You talked about poor care and nutrition, so you know that is not the case at all with bonsai. It takes alot more care to keep bonsai and as part of that care you need to water them every couple of days and even give them ferterlizer every two weeks. The way that you "starve" bonsai is by giving them almost no space to grow their roots...its that simple.

I do not like to be called "pretty messed up" just for asking a question about a topic that I am 100% ingnorate about. I have never even had a 2 dollar goldfish before so I know absolutely nothing about fish other then the fact they live in an breath water. So please if we could just focus on my first point and the point that I restated in my second post...

Are there any species that only get about 1-2 inches and that could look like "mini-koi" when seen only from above.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

The difference between bonsai'ing trees and bonsai'ing fish is that fish are smart, conscious beings who experience fear, depression, and pain. A tree, as far as we know, doesnt. To want to malnourish them so you can have some little garden feature is seriously messed up. 
Why dont you ditch the bonsai fish idea. If you want to keep healthy, happy fish, you could go with koi swordtails, which look like mini-koi, but they need warm tropical water (75*) year round.
And I eat free-range chicken eggs.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

Thank you, Gourami Swami. Sorry to insult you, OP, but fish are conscious animals like any other. Do you think that "bonsai kitten" thing that was going around the internet is right?

(btw, I don't need the chicken propaganda, I'm already a vegetarian who eats free-range eggs.)


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2008)

There aren't that many fish that could live in 3-5 gallons. If you were to increase the amount of water, you'd have more choices. I still can't think of a mini-koi type fish that would work though. Endlers would be good, since they have nice coloration, but I suggest you get only males, since they are livebearers and reproduce like mad.

Another option, should you increase the amount of water would be some Platies (again, male only would be best since these too are livebearers). There are some "koi" type colorations in Platies.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

Gourami Swami said:


> The difference between bonsai'ing trees and bonsai'ing fish is that fish are smart, conscious beings who experience fear, depression, and pain. A tree, as far as we know, doesnt.





> Research by the School of Psychology at the University of Plymouth in 2003 demonstrated that goldfish have a memory-span of at least three months and can distinguish between different shapes, colors and sounds. They were trained to push a lever to earn a food reward; when the lever was fixed to work only for an hour a day, the fish soon learned to activate it at the correct time.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfish


What you see there is what is what Psychologist call "classical conditioning", that is where you train something to have a reaction to a predetermined stimuli. Now to get into philosophy...just because something can be trained to do something does that mean that it is smart...

To be conscious means that you are self aware, fish are not. A easy day to test an animal to see if they are conscious beings is with a mirror. If they can look in the mirror and now that that is them that they are looking at then they are conscious beings. If you put an aggressive fish in front of a mirror it will try to attack the "other" fish that it thinks is in its area. 

Now for history...Before 1492 people of Europe did not know that North and South America Existed, does that mean that they did not? Only in the past 10 years has science proved that St. Johns Wort helped with mild cases of depression but does that mean that since science could not prove it till now that it did not help depression, even though it has be used since the days of ancient Greece? Just because we do not know if plants experience fear, depression, and pain does that mean that they do not. 



> To want to malnourish them so you can have some little garden feature is seriously messed up.


Malnourish what the fish or the tree? To say one step ahead of you I will answer both, though if you would just learn to read what it typed and not just what you think it said then I would not have to answer this. As far as me wanting to malnourish the fish, where did I say that I wanted to do that? did say "...stunt their growth but keeping them in a 3-5 gallon tank..." (the word but should have been by). First I need to teach you what malnourishment is.



> Definitions of malnourishment on the Web:
> 
> * Poor nutrition due to insufficient food or diet problems.
> library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00282/other_glossary.htm
> ...


So unless Koi need to eat a larger tank then putting them in smaller tank is not malnourishment. As far a malnourishing Bonsai, they get watered ever two or three days and you give them fertilizer ever two weeks. They are nourished better then trees in the wild, but that is just because of the very small root structure and the small amount of soil. Since there is less soil to hold what the tree needs to grow then you have to give the plants more attention.



> And I eat free-range chicken eggs.


Good for you? Do you think those mother chickens like you eating their babies? What about beef? Do you think cows are happy living in the conditions that they live in just so some guy can kill them? Pork? Lamb? My point as not about you eating chickens; my point was about how you become all "I am better then you because you a so mean and cruel and unkind and...and...a meany head because you asked if you could stunt a fishes growth" when there are things far worse then stunting the growth of 5 fish and they are look at as normal and alright. Look at the bright side...I asked if it could be done before just doing it and when I learned that it could and/or would kill the fish I dropped the idea. (I wish other people would too...)

So learn to read...learn what you are talking about...say what you mean...and quit flaming me!


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Okay: you say "learn to read" I will ask you to take that same advice: She said she is a VEGITARIAN. That means no moo moo cows. Obviously if she eats free range chicken eggs she is not vegan. Oooo Ahhh. I will also give you some advice here for this forum: "Take what you want and leave the rest." That means sometimes people, yourself included, do act on their thoughts, not necessarily what was written. So if you are offended by the comments about stunting of fish, take the information you want (which in this case is: It hurts the fish and kills them- which I believe you DID take. Congrats!) and leave the rest: the "flaming." 

Back on topic: 
To really go with your idea I would seriously consider having a container that is closer to 10 gallons, then you could go with a few male platy's (Micky Mouse platy's are a good place to start). Anything about that size will work. If you go with a livebearer then you very honestly want males only. Being overrun with fry can be a huge problem. I would love to see pictures once you have it all figured out! Research any fish you choose, before you engage in this. All will require some form of filtration OR daily water changes. You need to read about the nitrogen cycle to fully understand how to safely keep fish. If you google that you will get a bunch of responses and I strongly believe you are very capable of this type of research. 

Goodluck!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Alright already! Knock it off!
He said he gave up on it and it was only a second choice idea and that he didn't know anything to start so he couldn't intentionally be trying to be cruel, so that's enough.


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## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

Really all I put in a 3-5 gallon would be a betta maybe some guppies. But I really dont know what other kind of fish would look like a " mini Koi" GL. I really dont want to get on the poor animals things. But them are bread to be there born and killed there. The pic with the boy and chickens are form a diff country it looks like. Because in America we have a advance way all the waste go down through the raised floor to a holding tank water and food every where. And the facility is bigger then 2 football fields long and 2 wide. Just though I would share my 2cents in.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Even after I told you not to?

This is a fish topic thread. Talk about fish, not chickens.

Koi swordtails look like little Koi from above, but they need a lot more room than that, about 10 square inches per fish.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

I been thinking about it and I think with the right container I could do a 10 gallon tank. I will do my research on Koi swordtails, thanks of the advice on the fish people.

TheOldSalt you said that they need 10 square inches per fish (10x10) did you mean 10 cubic (10x10x10)? Also a gallon of water takes up 4 cubic inches, right? 10 gallons would be plenty of room for 5 Koi swordtails, without stocking the tank, right? I would like to only keep the tank about half stocked since there will be 3 small trees in the tank too, even though they will only be on the top inch or so.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

No, I meant 10 square inches of surface area, as an absolute minimum, and that's in barely surviving mode. Your formula works out much better for the fish, but you can actually put in more fish than that. I'd say you could split the difference @1 fish per gallon and be fine in a standard dimension tank, making sure to allot for the volume & surface area lost by the decor items and substrate. That should come out to around 7 or 8 fish in this case.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the help. I was looking at some of the Koi swordtails and there are some really nice looking black and white ones, I am not a fan of the orange and white ones though. The Platy have some really great looking spotted black and orange, all and all I think that the Platy have more Koi like patterns than the swordtails do, but that is just going buy the photos I have been looking at.

So in reading the forums I ran across a post (can not find it now) that said some thing about the more surface area the better for the fish. Is that true? If so is it the more tank surface area the better or the more "air" surface area? Sorry but I am trying to make sure that I pick a tank that will be best for both the fish and the trees. If it is any easier you can just post a link to some information that does a good job explaining surface area and the importance it plays with fish and/or the tanks maintenance.

Again thanks for the help.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Surface area is one of the most important factors to consider when choosing a tank.
The more surface area you have, the more air/water contact you have, and this is what determines how much oxygen will be available for your fish.
Some fish don't need much, but some fish need quite a bit.
Tall "show" style tanks look nifty, but they are really very poor aquariums. Short, wide "flat" style tanks are very good, but usually a bit impractical or lacking in visual appeal.
Standard dimension tanks are a good overall formula proven over the past century to be very effective.

For your tank, meant only to be viewed from above, a short flat tank would be a good choice. It's difficult to find such tanks, though. There are many places online nowadays that can make custom sizes for you, but that's an expensive option. You might be better off using a standard "long" style tank, such as a 20-long. Long tanks are stretched out, longer versions which provide more surface area per gallon than standard dimensions, and they are common and easily found.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

Ok so I did some looking and I learned that a 10 gallon tank is about 2400 cubic inches. Keeping three things in mind...1) 2400 cubic inches 2) air to water surface 3) trying to keep the feel of a bonsai pot...I have come to the size of 20x20x6.

In general are Platy fish jumpers, I know that that can really depend on the fish, but are they know for it? Also do you think that they would kill the trees by eating all of the roots? If so I could protect the roots.

I am thinking about making my own "tank" out of hypertufas. Doing that I can make it what ever size I need to and I can make the base of it large and hollow to hide the filter and heater and what ever else I need.

The only thing I need to research, that I can think of anyway, is how to give the trees what they need to grow and with out harming the fish.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The tree roots should be safe enough from the fish, but I'm more concerned about having them exposed underwater in the first place. If you can build your own container, maybe you could consider making some little islands for the trees which enclose the roots and soil.
Can you bonsai mangrove trees, I wonder? That would solve that problem.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

Yes you can bonsai mangrove trees, they where my second choice for this project but I liked the look of the Cypress over the Mangrove. Bald Cypress, the tree that I am using for this project, is a native swamp tree and it can thrive in water. I have talked to someone that has a Bald Cypress in his backyard pond, he said that the tree would do just fine in a fish tank so long as I took the time to maintain the roots so they do not take over the tank.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, there ya go, then. Fish and Cypress roots have always gotten along fine as far as I know, but I've never seen a Cypress in clear water. I never really thought much about it until right now, but aren't Cypress roots sticky with protective goo? That may or may not have an impact on your water, but I would suspect that once the roots are coated in various bioslime that they'd be pretty much insulated from the water and not as likely to affect it.
Yeah.. I can see your plan working just fine after it gets established.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

I would have to talk to that guy about the root goo, but I would not think that it would harm the fish...it does not in the wild.

Ok, one last question that I can think of, I should set up the plants and make sure they are healthy then the fish, right?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

That's a good idea. You might wind up having to make several big waterchanges in the early days until everything slimes up and stabilizes, and it's easier when there's no fish in the tank which might not like that very much.


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## Herby Canopy (Mar 17, 2008)

Thanks, once again, for all the help and advice.


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