# New Tank Questions



## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Hey everybody! I just found this website and it looks pretty cool, and this seems to be the right subforum for my questions.

So right now I have a 24 gallon saltwater reef system set up in the bedroom and its doing great. Corals propagating, fish doing great, no problems what so ever. I thought, hmm the downstairs needs a tank now! I was looking at bettas in a 12 gallon tank. Originally dwarf puffers but bettas seem more readily available and hardy.

So heres my questions to you all:
1.) What pieces of equipment are required for success here? So far Ive established that I will need the aquarium (duh), filter, substrate of some kind, decent lights, heater (maybe not since I live in Florida). What else have a forgotten or what would you all recommend??
2.) How strong of lights would I need in order to keep the plants healthy? Any brand names and wattage sizes greatly appreciated.
3.) What species/types of plants are recommended for a beginner? Since I have no clue.
4.) How many bettas could I keep in a tank this size?
And sorry to hit you all up with all these questions but I cant think of a better way to do it :fun:


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Edited the post above. Doing a little research, would a 40-50 watt light be ok for the 12 gallon? Could the plants on bottom get enough light? Please help! Any advice is welcome.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

In terms of Betta's you can only keep one male in there. you could keep more than one female betta, but not with a male as they will fight and she will likely not survive this. 

I do not know much about plants at all, but if you look through the planted tank section there are some very good posts in there, especially from JustOneMore20. 

I would suggest that no matter what you go with you do a fishless cycle. This can be done with pure ammonia (no additives or scents of any kind) which can be difficult to find. You can also accomplish this with a simple shrimp from the store. Use one jumbo shrimp, and have yourself a nice c0cktail with the rest! Put the shrimp in a clean pantyhose and hang it in the tank. It will be easier to remove once the cycle is complete and will keep the mess to a minimum. This process does not cause any odor (or shouldn't) so do not worry about that. Test every few days and read up on the cycle process so you know exactly what you are looking for in terms of numbers. Here is a link to some information about this process http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/7125-nitrogen-cycle-basics.html

As far as substrate goes you need to look up what kind of substrate you need for a planted tank. I believe gravel will work fine as well for many plants, but not for all so some of it will depend on what kind of plants you want to keep. The lighting will also be plant intention dependent. For a 12 gallon you would be fine with a 50 watt heater, which I would recommend despite living in Florida, as it will help maintain a constant temperature in the tank (Visitherm heaters are very good). You could go with an aqua clear 20 HOB filter, which is good. Others here would recommend a penguin. I know nothing about them other than I have heard them recommended often. You will also need a thermometer so you can measure the temperature your tank is at. And you will need a test kit to measure the various properties of your water. I would recommend starting with the API liquid freshwater test kit. Avoid the strips as they tend to be inaccurate, which can be a very big deal when it counts. The liquid test is more expensive up front, but will last for several months and is well worth the initial output. 

A good place online to buy products is BigAls http://www.bigalsonline.com/ where I have obtained items for less than half of what my LFS or PetCo or PetSmart have offered. 

Hope that helps a bit with you getting started. Welcome to the forum!


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

OBSiD1aN xX said:


> Hey everybody! I just found this website and it looks pretty cool, and this seems to be the right subforum for my questions.


Welcome to FF!! 



OBSiD1aN xX said:


> So heres my questions to you all:
> 1.) What pieces of equipment are required for success here? So far Ive established that I will need the aquarium (duh), filter, substrate of some kind, decent lights, heater (maybe not since I live in Florida). What else have a forgotten or what would you all recommend??


Obsidian gave you good info above.  I would suggest a heater as well, even though you live in Florida. The temperature will most likely drop at night and a heater will provide a constant temp. Visi-therm heaters are great and I have not had any problems with them. Chances are it won't be on much, especially in the summer, but atleast you will have peace of mind that the temperature won't swing much and stress the betta out.

As far as substrate goes, that depends on what plants you want to grow. Plants need varying levels of light and most of the higher light plants benefit more from a nutrient rich substrate. For medium and low light plants, gravel is fine though. There are alot of nutrient rich substrates out there and for a 12g, you'd probably be fine with 1 bag of most of them. Eco Complete is a nutrient rich substrate that is dark (blackish-grey) in color and easy to plant in. I have it in 3 of my planted tanks. You'd just need 1 bag of it. If you'd rather have gravel, thats fine, just pick your plants accordingly.




> 2.) How strong of lights would I need in order to keep the plants healthy? Any brand names and wattage sizes greatly appreciated.


For medium and low light plants, 25-30 watts over the tank is fine....for just low light plants, you could get away with less than 25, but I'd have atleast 20w IMO (in my opinion). You'll be very limited, plant wise, with less than that. For higher light plants, 40-50w of light (daylight bulbs) would work, but you'll also need to inject carbon dioxide and dose some nutrients into the water column with that much light. I really wouldn't suggest high light for a beginner. I suggest starting out with about 25 watts and trying some plants that work in that lighting.



> 3.) What species/types of plants are recommended for a beginner? Since I have no clue.


If you go with my suggest 25-30 watts of daylight lighting (anything with a kelvin rating between 5500K and 10000K), you will have a fair amount of plant options. I'd suggest smaller leaved plants in a small tank, so it doesn't look tiny. Some good plants are Anacharis, Hornwort, Rotala rotundifolia, Dwarf Sagittaria, Bacopa monneri, Anubias nana and Anubias nana 'petite', some Cryptocorynes, although most will outgrow the tank eventually but they grow slow, Wisteria, Watersprite, and Java fern. All these would be fine in that lighting and with gravel as substrate. I'd suggest atleast getting a micro nutrient fertilizer like Flourish to dose 1-2 times a week, but otherwise, they should thrive without much extra care. Having a nutrient rich substrate will definitely benefit these plants, but its not required.

I just posted in another thread earlier today and provided links to pics of some of the plants I just mentioned. Here's a link to check it out: http://www.fishforums.com/forum/aquatic-plants/18559-need-help-plant-selection.html.

And here is an article I have written about starting up a planted tank: http://www.fishforums.com/forum/aquatic-plants/18027-so-you-want-planted-tank.html


4.) How many bettas could I keep in a tank this size?
And sorry to hit you all up with all these questions but I cant think of a better way to do it :fun:[/QUOTE]
You could only keep 1 male Betta in the tank unless you divide it to where they can't get to each other. I really don't suggest this though because being able to see each other, they will stress themselves out. Also, they can sometimes jump the divider and fight.

If you get female bettas, you'd be able to have a group of 4-5 IMO...or maybe 3-4 if you want less. Plant it pretty densely and the aggression should be lower. Females are less aggressive than males (with each other) and will tolerate other females to an extent. Some of them have nasty personalities though, so be prepared to have to return one if something goes wrong. Usually, these setups workout pretty well though.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Wow thanks for all the help. Just read it all and I have a much better idea of what to do now. So heres what Im thinking...

12 gallon with 40-50 watts of lighting. Substrate is going to be Eco-Complete. Ive got a 50 watt heater that came with my 24 gallon that I never used, which Ill use for this tank. 

For lighting (Im on Big Als), whats it going to be called? Is it going to be PCs like my saltwater or what?

Ill run out to Petsmart later on this week and see what plants they even have and research it from there. My LFS is almost all saltwater, but theyve got a buncha different kinds and Ill just see from there. 

Ill get the tank and such soon. Probably end up getting the 12 gallon and just keep 1 male betta, since from what Ive seen theyre bigger and prettier than the females.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

Depending on the length of the tank, PCs may work. Sometimes the only options are alot more than you need, wattage wise though.

What are the dimensions of the tank?

With a male Betta in the 12g, you could probably add in a school of small fish, like Harlequin rasboras. That way you'd have more than just 1 fish, if you wanted more.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

JustOneMore20 said:


> Depending on the length of the tank, PCs may work. Sometimes the only options are alot more than you need, wattage wise though.
> 
> What are the dimensions of the tank?
> 
> With a male Betta in the 12g, you could probably add in a school of small fish, like Harlequin rasboras. That way you'd have more than just 1 fish, if you wanted more.


The more fish the better, but I dont want any of them to be crowded or stressed. Im thinking good plant placement would help keep them a little more calm. Ill check out rasboras to see what they are. The 12 gallon I was thinking of is the Eclipse brand 12 gallon kit. If I can find the proper dimensions I will post them.

For right now, first priority is getting my reef tank good to go, and hopefully Ill have everything done tomorrow, and I can begin to tackle this next project.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

Awesome.  Well, with the Eclipse 12g, to get more lighting, you won't be able to use the hood that comes with it, meaning you'll need another filter and light fixture. Looking on Drs Foster and Smith, it looks like it comes with a 13 watt bulb.....I couldn't see if it was 1 or 2. If its 2, you'll be fine, as long as the bulbs are daylight bulbs. But if its just one, you'll have to get another light and won't be able to use the hood.

If you want more than a low light tank and you haven't bought the tank yet, I'd suggest a standard 10g tank and find an incandescent hood that you can get screw in bulbs for. It would be alot cheaper too.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

JustOneMore20 said:


> Awesome.  Well, with the Eclipse 12g, to get more lighting, you won't be able to use the hood that comes with it, meaning you'll need another filter and light fixture. Looking on Drs Foster and Smith, it looks like it comes with a 13 watt bulb.....I couldn't see if it was 1 or 2. If its 2, you'll be fine, as long as the bulbs are daylight bulbs. But if its just one, you'll have to get another light and won't be able to use the hood.
> 
> If you want more than a low light tank and you haven't bought the tank yet, I'd suggest a standard 10g tank and find an incandescent hood that you can get screw in bulbs for. It would be alot cheaper too.


Yea that eclipse system comes with a lot of stuff but honestly I have parts and pieces from past tanks and Ill be ok. I figure that a standard 10 gallon and Ill pick out the filter and lighting fixture. 

Ill look and see what I can find. Ill post it here too for approval haha


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Are there any good sites for just bare tanks? Meaning the aquarium and nothing else?


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

I don't know any sites, but if you have a Petsmart or Petco nearby, they usually have bare 10g tanks for around $8-10. I don't think you'll find a better deal than that online.  As far as other sizes, well they are more expensive of course. If you want a tank and stand for a bigger tank, check http://www.craigslist.org if you live in the US. You'll have to choose your location or the nearest big city.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Yea I think Ill swing by Petsmart on my way home tomorrow. I didnt think they would be that cheap honestly  . Then Ill end up ordering online for all/most of the other stuff. My LFS is so expensive for most equipment, and I think Big Als can help me keeping it as cheap as I can.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Ok whats everyone think about these.

Tetra Whisper Power Filter

Plant Gro Co2 Natural System

I might as well go for some moderate-high wattage lights since they dont cost very much anyways. Would a 32 watt be ok for the tank? Ill just end up getting this piece at Petsmart or my LFS, along with the tank so I know it will fit ok.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Personally I would pass on the Whisper. I have one, I hate it. I only have it because it came with the kit. I quickly upgraded that kit to an Aquaclear and now use the Whisper on my smaller tank. If I had money to take it off and run an AC on that tank, I would, but I don't have money for that at this point. 

Thats the only thing I will speak of in the list you gave because it is the only one I have experience with. The piece I have the most specific problem with is the fact that the charcoal comes inside the floss in an all in one fashion. The charcoal is no longer active way before I would want to change this piece out. The floss is difficult to rinse in any effective way. I prefer ceramic pieces and separate activated charcoal only if I need it, with a sponge. The sponge in there is separate so that part is okay. I had this same problem with my cascade, but I just cut an AC filter sponge to fit and stole some bioballs from that all for an instant cycle since I had to use the tank right away for the fry. That has worked quite nicely.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Tanks are almost never worth ordering online. But finding them used locally on craiglist or on the newspaper site works well. I really want to support the real LFSs, but petsmart and walmart usually beat the locals on tanks. For weird size or custom tanks, glasscages.com has cheap tanks, but unless you are driving through Tennessee or picking up at one of their delivery days (usually ACA conventions and the like) the shipping gets scary. 

If you really intend to stop with one betta and a few rasboras, that filter is fine. If you think you might add more fish later on, you could go up a size or add a second little filter. The Whispers have a floss cartridge, that you fill will charcoal from a sealed bag. Its nice thats its separate, you can use it without the charcoal for medicating and use old charcoal to seed a new tank. However, I'm not real thrilled with the clip for holding the carbon in. I have a tendency to dump carbon in strange places. I would suggest getting the biggest tank you have room for, everything else you can upgrade piecemeal. 
The main drawbacks of high lights on small tanks is that they are hot (you may have to put them on feet if the tank gets too hot) and you almost have to use CO2 or flourish excel and ferts or get lots of algae. If you are planning on doing this anyway, go ahead and get quality lighting right away. True planted tanks are more work than fish-tanks with a few plants in them like I have, but they are beautiful. Since your reef is doing well, I think you will be successful with a planted tank.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay so I dont think I will go with the Whisper if you all say its not very good. Ill keep looking.  Thank you!


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## dolifisis (Sep 27, 2006)

OBSiD1aN xX said:


> The more fish the better, but I dont want any of them to be crowded or stressed. Im thinking good plant placement would help keep them a little more calm. Ill check out rasboras to see what they are. The 12 gallon I was thinking of is the Eclipse brand 12 gallon kit. If I can find the proper dimensions I will post them.
> 
> For right now, first priority is getting my reef tank good to go, and hopefully Ill have everything done tomorrow, and I can begin to tackle this next project.



I have an Eclipse 12 system and I kept my Betta in it for a while with several white cloud mountain minnnows and a snail. I've also had him in my smaller Eclipse tank with razboras. He'll get along fine with other fish as long as they don't have flowing fins, otherwise he might get confused. If you pick low light plants the lighting is okay but I did add a retrofit kit to mine and it fits under the hood. You won't need a new hood or filter.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

OBSiD1aN xX said:


> Ok whats everyone think about these.
> 
> Tetra Whisper Power Filter
> 
> ...


I'd suggest getting an Aquaclear 20 over the Whisper. The Whisper will work if you have to get it, but you get what you pay for. The Aquaclear is just a little more expensive, but alot better quality IMO.

That CO2 system is fine for a small tank. Its the yeast CO2 method which people usually refer to as DIY CO2. You could make your own system with 2 liter soda or juice bottles, some airline tubing, a check valve, and some type of diffusor. If you'd rather buy a prepackaged sytem, that one is good.

32 watts would be fine for a 10g. You'll have a fair amount of plant choices with that lighting (considered medium, maybe medium-high lighting). For smaller tanks, more lighting is usually needed to grow the higher light plants. You will have alot of choices though.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay so that sounds about right. Ill get the aquaclear in place of the whisper for filtration. The lighting Im still yet to actually measure and fit, but I will when the time comes. 

For Co2, Im going to experiment. I just want the method thats going to need to be changed the least amount of times. Convenience is what Im going for. Just with my 24 gallon reef, I check the parameters so much and keeping the new frags in place is quite a job, along with spot feeding my tubastrea (its non photosynthetic so daily feedings are necessary.)


This tank wont be put together until I get my reef set for a while. Hopefully my new maroon clown will do good and I can decide on a good rock work layout.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

Don't know if anyone said it, but I live in Florida as well, and let me tell you You will need a heater, especially in the winter time. That's it! Thanks!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

The most convenient method of CO2 is going to be pressurized. On smaller tanks, you could use the CO2 bottles that are for paintball guns. http://www.aquabotanic.com sells regulators to fit them. The cylinders themselves should be pretty inexpensive and last a good while on a small tank. You'd need tubing, a needle valve (for regulating), and a check valve at the least, but those are all pretty cheap.

If you want inexpensive and convenient, it might be better for you to go with a non-CO2 tank with lower lighting.


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## OBSiD1aN xX (Dec 31, 2007)

JustOneMore20 said:


> The most convenient method of CO2 is going to be pressurized. On smaller tanks, you could use the CO2 bottles that are for paintball guns. http://www.aquabotanic.com sells regulators to fit them. The cylinders themselves should be pretty inexpensive and last a good while on a small tank. You'd need tubing, a needle valve (for regulating), and a check valve at the least, but those are all pretty cheap.
> 
> If you want inexpensive and convenient, it might be better for you to go with a non-CO2 tank with lower lighting.


Oh awesome. Ive got paintball CO2 cylinders all over the place, since I play regularly. Then Ill take a look when I go back down to the LFS today (they mischarged me for a few things.) I need to get another heater for the future 10 gal, because I used the one I have around for my reef. Today was 40 degrees, which is cold for us, and I dont want the tank to suffer so I popped it in there.


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