# Discouraged



## rcomeau

Over the last few month I have been trying to convert from plastic plants to live plants. Early on, my LFS made a comment that many people get discouraged when the plants don't look so good after a while. I'm almost discouraged.

I started using a 10,000K/Actinic light a few weeks ago for about 5 hours a day. That is (96Wx2)/50=3.8W/gallon at most. I boosted KH with baking soda to 4 KH then started DIY CO2 injection. I now have KH=4 and PH=7.2 so I figure CO2 is 7.5 ppm. There are very small bubbles under the leaves.

I am mostly working with a large amazon sword plant and its babies. Many leaves look very bad - algae, holes, etc. Some have gotten better.

The biggest weekness is likely the substraight. I still have just gravel (large to avoid being vacuumed).

Should I expect the amazons to turn around and expect new plants to stay looking good... or be discouraged by accepting fresh water planted tanks to just look that way over time?


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## violet

5 hours of light isn't much and I doubt the actinic does anything positive for a freshwater plant. What kind of fertilizer, source of iron, are you using?

One thing I have always found is that Swords want to extract nutrients from the substrate. So large gravel is not a good choice.

Doesn't seem that the components (light intensity/bulbs/plant/substrate) go together.


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## Guest

I agree...5 hours isn't enough. Plants need about 10-12 hours of light a day.

If the bulbs are 10000K compact fluorescents (should look white in color), then they are fine. But if they are Acitinic, or 50/50 (would look blue), then they are not doing much for you plants.

With that much light, you should be fertilizing. I'd invest in some Potassium, Iron, Micros (like Flourish or Tropica Master Grow), Nitrogen (if you nitrAtes are low), and Phosphorus (if your phosphate isn't high). Adding CO2 is good, but I don't think 7.5ppm is that great....I could be wrong though. I think usually a good CO2 level is around 30ppm. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

How large is the substrate? A good size for plants is around 2-3mm rocks. If you go much larger than that, waste can get stuck between them and could rot your plant roots.

If your gravel is an ok size, all you need is some root tabs.

For the fertilizers, I use Seachem products (Flourish). You can also get fertilizers from Greg Watson for cheaper...they come in the form of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate)...Potassium Phosphate...and I can't remember his micro fert...

Hope that helps some. Until you can get fertilizers, start by upping the light to 10 hours. That should help alot IMO.


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## Puffer Pita

I recommend a minimum of 8 hours a day, 10 is better, no more than 12. Gravel isn't as much of an issue, my son has a huge rubin sword in his 10g tank that's growing in glass marbles. No other gravel, no ferts, nothing. My husband has an enormous Amazon sword in his 29g that keeps growing out of the tank.  He uses a plain large gravel with a small amount of Flourite around the base and no other ferts. They both have stock lighting. Their swords grow much better than mine, which is in Flourite and gets dosed regularly with Flourish, CO2 injection and high lighting.

Amazon swords, though, seem to be rather difficult for many people to grow. I've heard people who grow lots of other plants complain that they can't grow a sword to save their life. So you might want to think about trying other plants instead and see how that goes. 

BTW, Actinic lighting isn't the best choice for plant growth, or so I've been told by plant experts.


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## rcomeau

I have never added fertilizer. I will look into it.

There are two bulbs. One 10,000K (for the plants) and one actinic (for aesthetics). I've been reluctant to run the lights longer because the cooling fans make noice (even though I bought cheaper fans), the fish park in the shady spots, and it isn't much worth the electric. I will still consider more hours if all else fails.

My gravel is large because I sifted out the smaller stones. I did that because of a tip to do so when using under gravel filters. I'm getting close to the day of switching to another filter type and a different substrate.

I am working on getting the CO2 as high as 20 but don't want to make the water harder and/or PH higher to go higher than 20. 
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

What are "root taps"?

ps. Water is at 84 deg F to keep the Discus happy.

Thanks


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## Puffer Pita

Yes, the actinic bulb is useless when it comes to plants. Most plant growers that I know of ditch the actinic bulb and replace it with one that's better for plant growth.

You're going to have trouble growing anything with only 5 hours of light, that's pretty much a definite. I don't know of any plants that grow in the dark.  Underground filters are bad for planted tanks, despite the size of the gravel. The plant roots will become entangled in it. They're pretty useless for any other type of tank, too.  If you're going to switch to another type of substrate, I would recommend Eco Complete or Flourite. Eco Complete is better, IMO, as it doesn't require rinsing, but it depends on the look you want.

Here are a couple of pictures of the tanks I was talking about. The first is my son's 10g with rubin sword, glass marble substrate, no ferts and stock lighting.









This is my husband's 29g with Amazon sword, large stone gravel, very small amount of Flourite, stock light.


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## Guest

I agree with Boxermom....5 hours just isn't going to do it for plants. I'd go atleast 8 hours...that's only 3 more hours. I'd invest in a timer and set it to come on in the morning sometime and go off 8 hours later. That's what I do. 

I would also replace the acitinic bulb. Does the fixture have 2 different on/off switches? If so, I'd just turn the acitinic bulb off...it doesn't do anything for the plants. That will be ok until you can replace the bulb.

Whenever you are ready to change the gravel out, I'd switch to Eco-Complete. I know alot of people that are very pleased with this substrate. I will be changing my 55g over to it this weekend.

Undergravel filters are indeed bad for plant roots...especially heavy rooters like swords. I'd take it out when you take out the gravel. Do you also have a HOB or cannister filter? If so, then you don't need the UGF. I hope you have more than a UGF with Discus...they need really clean water.

What size tank is it by the way? Just wondering...

Once you extend the light period...then you can see if the plants do better. You may not need any ferts. Holes in the leaves usually indicates a Potassium deficiency though.

Root tabs are little sticks that you put in the substrate and it fertilizes the roots of plants like swords.

What other plants are in the tank?

Boxermom, those substrates are that big. I thought it would be like an inch or more rocks...lol. Its bigger than whats recommended for plants...but not huge.


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## Guest

Hello there, rcomeau. First, I'd like to encourage you to keep at it with the plants. There is always a learning curve for any change in aquariums. You are getting some great advice here from some folks far smarter than I, but there are a few things I noticed that may help, too.

First, I would have to agree that you'll want to replace that actinic light with a 10,000K or the like. I will also agree that you'll need a minimum of 8 to 10 hours of light time per day. If/when you do this, keep an eye on the discus. They don't like bright light and 3.8 watts is a lot of it. I'm not saying it will be a problem, just keep an eye out to make sure it's not. 

I would also check out http://aquariaplants.com for great information on keeping live plants. You can also check warm water plants for other options that may work for you in your aquarium. I would also check it against beginner plants and see which plants appear on both.

Keep us updated on your tank. Good luck!


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## Puffer Pita

JustOneMore20 said:


> Boxermom, those substrates are that big. I thought it would be like an inch or more rocks...lol. Its bigger than whats recommended for plants...but not huge.


Yeah, I know its not huge but not what's recommended for plants. We have no idea why the swords in both plants are growing so well.  And the tanks have salt in them since they are primarily livebearer tanks, which is supposed to be bad for swords. Go figure. :lol: I suspect one reason why they are doing so well is because we never really tried growing them. They started off in one of my planted tanks but I started having algae problems, so we put them in the other tanks that had bristenose plecos so they could clean them off. In the meantime, I got other plants and by the time I got the algae issues handled, I didn't want them anymore. I think sometimes the less you mother something, the better it does.


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## Damon

You dont need to replace the actinic bulb, but take it out altogether. a 96 watt fixture over a 50 gallon tank is plenty of light to grow swords.
10 hrs of light is what you want. (SInce you will be removing a bulb anyway, the power consumption will be the same  ).
Get some flourish or tropica mastergrow and dose according to the bottle.
Dont worry about your gravel. While many consider swords heavy root feeders (and to a point this may be true), many micros are immobile and thus have to be absorbed where the plant needs them. Without getting to technical about plant uptake rates, swords are nutrient sponges. They will absorb all the No3 and po4 you have in a tank under the right conditions. Then when the tank is depleted, the sword diess off. This is where many people have trouble and why the start off well and then dead. Addinga root tab under the sword will help also but be sure not to disturb the tab after you plant it. Could result in an algae bloom.

You Co2 levels are also very low. You should be shooting for 25-35ppm.
7ppm is about twice ambient levels in a tank.


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## judya

One thing you might try if you aren't ready to redo all the substrate is plant the sword in a clay flowerpot (new, clean, no prior plants from outside etc). You can put your amendments like fertilizer down in there. Then cover over the top of it with some gravel to keep fish from rooting in the substrate. If you don't like the looks of the pot, maybe lean a couple of pieces of rock against to camouflage it, or grow some smaller bushy stuff in front of the pot. I saw one like this in a very large tank, and the sword was HUGE - really bushy. 

Also it could be holes are from snails or a catfish?


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## Ownager2004

Swords plants are pretty hardy. Just give them time to get their roots growing and dont mess around with them and they should grow fine. If you start adding ferts, more co2 and more light I would also add some fast growing plants. Atleast initially, until you know your swords are nice and healthy to prevent algae. Algae will demoralize you faster than any unhealthy plant


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## rcomeau

The algae seems to be what made many of the leaves look bad. The algae growth isn't too bad now but many leaves need to be cut off. I didn't cut them yet because the larger fish park in the shade that they provide. 

What do fast growing plants have to do with controlling algae?

My next big change is to change from the under gravel filter to something else. Perhaps two corner filters because I liked them in the past... simple and effective. I'm also looking into adding spots of a different substrate like pool sand, Eco-Complete substrate, and/or clay pots. Will terra cotta pots work?

Added first cap of Seachem Flourish today.

Bought ''two'' java ferns today from my LFS because I read an article that said they were easy to keep and durable. The roots were wrapped with thread. I unwrapped them to find that they were actually made up of 4 or 5 leaves with very little root for each. That seemed deceptive but lets see how they do.

Got 3 more neon tetras to keep my 1 company. They don't do too good in my tank. 84 deg and PH at 7.2 is said to be too high for them but the 1 has lived through a lot. 1 of the new 3 already died before dark (even though I introduced them to the water of a few hours). grrrr

8 rams added Thursday. They are doing great. 4 pairs with territories already.

Still injecting CO2 to get it higher than 7.5.

The holes in the leaves are not from snales nor catfish. Those leaves are covered with the most algae and the holes are just the thinest spots.

The actinic bulb is for me. i.e. I will leave it off when on vacation.

When I think I'm ready to keep plants looking good I will invest in a group of plants from aquabotanic.com or aquariumplants.com.


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## Puffer Pita

Java fern should not be planted. It should be tied to a rock, driftwood, etc, with the roots exposed.

Neons are notoriously fragile these days, not at all like the hardy ones of the past. Mostly due to inbreeding, it is often said.

Plants compete with the algae for nutrients. Faster growing plants will suck the nutrients up faster than the algae, leaving very little for the algae to live on. 

Terra cotta pots are fine as long as they are new/unused and do not have any sort of paint or varnish on them. 

HOB filters are better than sponge filters, IMO. They are pretty inexpensive and do a much better job at keeping the water clear and clean.


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## northfacehiker

Whew! There is a TON of good information in this thread! I always love seeing people being friendly and responding with great info!

Out of everything I've read, the thing that stands out the most to me is the actinic bulb. You say you do it for aesthetic purposes as you like the look, but at least you realize it's not doing anything for your plants. I've never seen an actinic bulb on a freshwater tank, mainly because it doesn't help them. Actinics are for corals and anemones in saltwater tank because they need a special end of the light spectrum (to mimic what you see in ocean water).


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## rcomeau

A guy at my LFS realized that I needed light and recommended the 10,000K and Actinic along with separate switches and power cords to be able to turn them on independantly. It is easy to see what the actinic adds by turning the 10000K on first then turning on the actinic. After all, it is for looking at and watching.

I recently removed almost everything unnatural. No more toys nor plastic plants. Below are some pictures. Perhaps the tank picture will spur some constructive critisism. My plan is to picks substrates and new plants both arranged to look better. For now it is just some plants stuck in the gravel to give planting a try.

The 8 rams added on Thursday paired off and two pairs laid eggs already. One clutch was laid right next to the front glass so I got some good pictures. One is below. These rams are great... colorful and active. They care for their eggs and work as pairs to defend their territories. They don't bother any of the other community fish (angels, discus, algae eater, neon tetras) except to push them away from the eggs. The little female ram pushing the big discus back is pretty funny. If he doesn't push back fast enough she pushes him by his eye. (Good site for ram info... rams.)


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## Guest

I have some constructive critisizm, but not on plants. On fish.

I see you have a very nice discus there....however, Discus should not be kept alone. It should be kept with one other, but preferably in a group of 4. Discus are not at their happiest alone.
Also, angels and discus do not go well together. This is because angels can carry a disease that does not harm the angels but eventually kill discus.
And angels like to snack on neon tetras. lol

The tank looks very nice though, and those rams are adorable.


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## Damon

The great angelfish and discus disease has all but been eliminated (hasn't been a huge outbreak since the mid 80's.)


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## Guest

Oh okay, thanks Simpte. I hadn't heard that anywhere but I've been warned and heard of other people being warned about that.
Thanks for clearing that up.


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## rcomeau

yeah, I bought the 1 discus before I was really ready for it because it was a good immediate take home deal for $35 at a fish auction. It lived through the change from the 15 to 50 gallon tank. I have been planning to get 3 more discus once the tank is really ready. Now I'm waiting for the tank to adjust to the 8 rams added last week. I have been to many not-so-local fish stores looking for discus only to find a very few lasts picks and promises that they will start stocking discus. Next step is to drive to Discus Madness, aquafishworld, then likely buy from discus-hans-usa.

All of the fish seem to get along together well but I hear you. I won't let the angels get too hungry with the neon alternatives swimming around.

Last night I realized that the Ram eggs in the picture were all gone. New eggs were already laid in the same spot.

Planters... take a look at the leaf that is touching the back glass. It is just about dead on the tip where it is touching the glass. Do I need to keep all leaves from touching the glass?

Take a look at the leaves along the right. That pane of glass faces the sun and I cover it from direct sun light in the winter. My big question is whether or not that will occur again if I replace the plant. Or, will it survive better now that I went from...
light=0.5W/G, KH=1, PH=6.8, CO2=3 ppm, with no Seachem Flourish
to
light=3.8W/G, KH=4, PH=7.2, CO2=7.5 ppm, with Seachem Flourish?

I'm thinking about changing to some Eco-Complete substrate and some pool sand. comments?


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## Ownager2004

Leaves touching the glass shouldn't be a problem. I dont keep any of the plants you keep, but i have about 30 stems, lots of dwarf sag leaves, and a couple blyxa japonica leaves against the glass in my tank doing just fine. 

I think you mentioned algae on some of the leaves earlier... I would cut them off asap because in my experience the algae will not die off of the leaf and it will remain an eyesore. You can do as you like but Ive had good results being ruthless with algae. Maybe you could try some floating plants to provide shade areas. I would stay away from the invasive ones like duckweed though.

Nice discus


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## rcomeau

thanks ownager. 

I used to control algae in my 15 and 10 gallon tanks with Algaefix. I'm thinking of adding some to the 50 gallon. It doesn't say anything about hurting plants. Will it?

What else do you do to control algae?


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## Ownager2004

In my tank i had some really bad algae problems when i first started introducing all my plants. The thing that seemed to turn it around was getting enough plant mass in the tank to kind of outcompete the algae. You want a lot of healthy plants and you get them healthy by adding co2 and all the ferts they need along with ample lighting.
Your probably still going to experience an outbreak and in my experience the stuff mentioned above only keeps algae from spreading. If you want it out you generally have to manually remove it or put something in to eat it.

I keep 4 ottos in my 10 gallon tank... some people would say 4 is to many for 10 gallons, but they are fat and my tank is clean.. so i dont really care 

Certain types of shrimp and livebearers also make good pest algae eaters.


I dont know anything about the algaefix. Most planted tank enthusiasts stay away from those kind of products. Im geussing it probably will affect your plants and probably any inverts in your tank.


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## rcomeau

I am about to buy some eco complete from aquariumplants.com along with a few glosso and dwarf sag plants. I don't want to pay for shipping twice so is there anything else I should buy with that online purchase?

I read advice about adding a layer of peat on the bottom under the eco complete. It seems to be common advice yet I couldn't find it at the few places I looked. Am I correct that peat is used to help the initial bacteria growth and that I will likely have enough waste in my tank that I won't need it? Is it difficult to add a thin bottom layer of peat when there is already water and fish in the tank? Is the thin-bottom-layer-of-peat advice just for new empty tanks?

I will try to create a beach look with the eco complete as the "land" around the back with the old gravel and/or bare bottom at the front center for the "water".

The plan:
Change 1: Change one of the two UGFs to a corner filter then give it a weeks or so to establish bacteria.
Change 2: Change the second UGF to a corner filter then give it a week or so to establish bacteria. 
Change 3: Remove some of the gravel and push the rest to front center. Thoroughly rince the eco complete then use it to fill the two back corners (most of the tank) at 3" deep or more.

How can I do better? Will the fish survive these changes?


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## Damon

Do not have a substrate deeper than 3 inches. 2 inches is fine but no more than 3. You do not want to creat anerobic pockets. You might want to get soume flourish and flourish excel. Trim infected leaves that have algae on them. That should do you. The excel will give the plants an added source of carbon while also acting as an algecide to certain types of algae.

I personally do not like eco-complete (learned this in the last 18 months) as I had a huge bba outbreak with it and many others have also. COuld be the high lighting. If you're going for the "beach" look you might want to look into onyx sand instead. It comes in 2 sizes; sand and small gravel type pellets.


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## Puffer Pita

Peat isn't used for bacteria, its used to adjust the pH. Unless you really know what you are doing though, its best to avoid it as you can very easily put just a tad too much and have devastating results.

Personally, I like Eco Complete. Haven't had any problem with BBA with it or Flourite, which is essentially the same thing.


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## Guest

I just changed my 55g substrate to Eco-Complete and I still love it. I haven't had any problems with it yet. It was very easy to plant in.

I don't recommend using the AlgaeFix. Its best to ID your algae and look up the causes then to add chemicals. It may not hurt the plants, but if you have any algae eaters in there and they eat the algae after you've added the AlgaeFix, it could kill them. 

Here is a good site to ID algae. It has good pictures of the different types.
And here is another.

If you don't see enough on either site that tells you what the causes are, then I'd do a google search and do some reading on the type you have. Its best to fix the problem, then take care of the algae for a short time. It won't go away unless you fix the problem.

If you aren't changing much of the gravel at a time, then the fish should be fine. If you were going to change all of the gravel, then I'd suggest you take the fish out, but you're not!


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## rcomeau

I think I just made a big mistake (before JustOneMore20 suggested to take the fish out). I went to remove the airline from the UGF to put it on the corner filter and realized that I could also remove the entire first UGF. I knew that there was likely a mess under it but I didn't think that the stir up would be as significant as it was. I hope the fish live through it. One Angel is already sucking air at the surfice. The next time I will put a heater, mature filter, and gallons of the top water in a temp tank to hold the fish there until the water settles back down. Then again, if they live through it this time then I will have the confidense to do it the same lazy way for the second UGF.

Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrites are still at 0 even after the 8 rams have been in there for a while and the tank is stirred up. 

KH has been 4 now it is 3. PH is 7.2. I expected more CO2 than 5.5 by now. I'm on my third small batch of DIY for CO2. It amazes me that some turn off their CO2 tank at night when knowing that the plants don't use the CO2 at night. CO2 doesn't seem to diffuse into the water so fast that it can be turned on and off so frequently. A lot must be wasted by running it with many bubbles during the day.

Rams are funny. They paired off into 4 pairs quickly and laid eggs twice when first added to the tank. The eggs couldn't be defended. Now they aren't even interested in territories with their pairs too much. I read about successfully getting eggs after moving a pair to a breeding tank. I wonder if they lay eggs when they first get to a new environment to give the new environment a try as a potentially safe place to propogate.

I was going to get sand, or something close to it, but decided against it because I don't want to see crap on top of it encouraging others to tell me to vacuum. I'll stay with the large gravel for that unplanted part of the tank. It is easy to run the vacuum through it without vacuuming up any stones. That was another reason to change from the UFGs. It was hard to vacuum with the UGFs under the gravel.

No peat for me. I can't find it, I'm not sure how to use it nor its effects so I definately qualify for Boxermom's suggestion to avoid it if you don't know what you are doing.

Ok, 3" depth limit with eco complete. Why wouldn't any substrate without an UGF cause anerobic pockets?

What is BBA?

Good algae links. I think I have "green water" algae that got slightly worse since my first and only cap of Seachem Flourish. I will try to control it by covering the pane that gets some indirect sun light. Also maybe micron cartridges, diatom filters, UV sterilizers.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Puffer Pita

Gases have less opportunity to escape from tightly packed sand than the larger spaces between gravel pieces.

BBA - black beard algae. Looks pretty much exactly like its name. Very invasive.


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## rcomeau

I suppose that the eco complete gravel is such that 3" is the limit for that size gravel to allow gases to escape. I haven't seen it yet.

I don't have BBA. It is more like green water algae.

1 of the 3 neon tetras was dead within 4 hours of the first stir up. Those fish seem to literally get scared to dead.

I lost patience and/or got a good idea to stir the water up as few times as possible. I took out the second UGF. This time I pulled it up very slowly and vacuumed as it came up. I hope mother nature made it so fish can live through such dirty water because it gets something like that when floods occur. Once settled, it should be ok while I wait for the eco complete to arrive.

I bought some plants yesterday. They came in small pots with the roots hanging out. Am I correct that I should never remove the pots? Just burry them in the eco complete?

Some of the plants had established good roots under the UGF.

A friend gave me some bulbs. I thought the all died. Now that I pulled out my plants I see that two are grown to 4".

Lets hear it. What would you do different if you rearranged and replanted your tank?


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## Guest

> Am I correct that I should never remove the pots?


No, remove the pots. Carefully take the plants out of the pots and remove any material (rockwool) around the roots. You can trim the roots if needed. I do this whenever I get new plants....it makes them easier to plant.

I did rearrange my tank, but it isn't much different. I have a post in the picture forum titled "Some new pictures". It shows my change from regular gravel to Eco in my 55g.

I never had good luck with the bulbs. I put some in my 10g before and they got fungus on them and smelled really bad....so I threw them away.

The size of the Eco is between "big" sand and small gravel. Mine had some bigger chunks in it, but most of it is around 2mm in size.


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## Puffer Pita

For potted plants, they should be removed from the plastic frames, and gently remove all of the rock wool from around the roots. Rinse really well in declorinated water, trim the roots until they are about 2 inches long, then stuff into the gravel. Its never a good idea to plant them with the rock wool still around the roots.

Neons are very sensitive fish, not very hardy at all anymore. I'm surprised you didn't lose them all. Most have never had to live through anything mother nature heaped on them, as they are mostly tank-bred now from my understanding. Which is the problem with them, too much in-breeding has really damaged them genetically.


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## Damon

Boxermom said:


> Peat isn't used for bacteria, its used to adjust the pH. Unless you really know what you are doing though, its best to avoid it as you can very easily put just a tad too much and have devastating results.
> 
> Personally, I like Eco Complete. Haven't had any problem with BBA with it or Flourite, which is essentially the same thing.



Peat is used for bacteria. I use a dusting of peat before I put any substrate in. Helps develop bacteria faster and provides the ideal atmosphere for them to be cultured in. I can be used to adjust ph but the affects are minimal on larger tanks. Another downside is there is no way to predetermine the numerical affects peat will have on a tank. Its also useless if your water has a high KH. Peat has one of the highest cec values when compared to aquatic substrates.

Saying eco-complete and flourite are the same thing is like comparing apples to oranges. Other than they both contain high amounts of iron and can be used as a substrate they are very different.

The cec value of eco complete is much higher than that of flourite. Eco complete buffers the water for 4-9 months also. Flourite is calcinized clay while eco complete is not. Eco-complete is much lighter than flourite also. Eco does not cloud the water like flourite.


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## Puffer Pita

Well I don't know about peat for bacteria. First I've heard about it to be honest. All of the planted tank people I know who use it have said they use it to lower the pH and reduce the carbonate hardness. None have mentioned anything about using it to cultivate bacteria that I can recall. It may be a beneficial side-effect, but not the primary reason for using it.


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## Damon

Some links of interest........
http://www.barrreport.com/index.php? (Tom Barr's personal forum. A lot is for members only but still some good info)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/index.php?

http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html (A very good read)


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## rcomeau

Here are some picture now that the UGFs are removed and before the eco complete is added.
http://patmedia.net/rycomeau01/fish/tank_first_plants_intermediate.JPG

http://patmedia.net/rycomeau01/fish/tank_on_desk.JPG
The broader view should give you an idea why a hang-on-back filter can't fit and/or won't look good.


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## rcomeau

I meant to insert pictures...


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## Guest

That Discus is beautiful!


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## rcomeau

I certainly have green water algae now. The sides need to be wiped just about every day and the water is getting very green. Here is what I'll try...
- higher CO2 than CO2=9 (Ph=7, KH=3)
- more water changes. 
- less waste by vacuuming before, during and after removing the gravel that won't stay when eco is added
- reduce the 96W 10,000 light from 8 hours/day to 7.
Any other ideas?

How do I maintain "adequate Nitrate levels"? I thought Nitrate was bad for fish?

How do I follow the suggestion of "algae control is nutrient control"? What should I be testing for? It says I should reduce fertilization. I only put one cap of fertilizer in about 3 weeks ago.

The eco complete arrived. Perhaps I will have time to add it this week.

The angel fish also seem to be trying to get air from the surface and the Discus got generally darker. I reacted by adding a bubble curtain and increased the overall air flow to aggitate the surface more to get more oxygen into the water.

The crazy Rams keep laying eggs and eating them the next day.


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## Damon

None of those methods will get rid of greenwater. Either use a uv sterilizer for 24-48 hrs followed by a large waterchange or a 3-4 day blackout followed by a large waterchange.


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## rcomeau

Simpte, I read one of your posts from another thread...


> Greenwater is triggered 99% of the time by ammonia. Moving around tank decor or plants, stirring up the gravel is the number one source of this.
> 
> A blackout is my favorite method but it means NO light, not 4 hrs of light. Takes anywhere from 3 days to 6 days. Be sure to do a waterchange afterward also.


I stirred up my gravel when removing the UGFs.

Do the fish get stressed by 3 days of no light?

Do UV sterilizers kill the good bacteria to the extent that the tank will cycle again?


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## Ownager2004

UV sterilizers shouldn't kill very many of your nitrifying bacteria because they and most other bacteria like to attach to surfaces. Only a small percentage are present in the water column and therefor most of them wont get a dose of UV radiation.


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## rcomeau

I increased the airflow for more bubbles and vacuumed well. The water was much better the next day. I'm still planning to get a UV sterilizer.

Yesturday I took out most of the gravel, let the water settle, vacuumed, and replaced the filter media in one of the two filters. Then I put in the eco complete. I washed the eco by blasting it with a water hose while letting the top gray water run out of the top of the bucket. That seemed to clean it well while leaving anything that can sink in the bucket.

My suspicion removing too much bacteria and triggering a cycle was correct. Today: Ammonia=.25, Nitrite=.25, Nitrate=5, PH=7.2, KH=3. Time to read some posts on keeping it low... small water changes each day and maybe some kind of detox chemical.

Here is a picture of the result. What would you change?


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## Ownager2004

looks great in the picture. Some smaller plants in the front left might look good.


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## Guest

Dwarf sag or pygmy chain sword would work....or maybe dwarf hairgrass (can't remember your lighting).


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## rcomeau

96W of 10,000K for 50g=2 w/g 
on for 7 hrs/day 

That is dwarf sag to the right of the glosso along the edge of the gravel. I bought it for ground cover and thought about mowing it to about 2" high. Will that work or will it cause dead leaves?

A pair of rams laid eggs on the eco already. I wish they wouldn't eat them the next day.


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## Guest

That sag is tall! I think if you cut it, the leaves will die. You'd probably have to increase the lighting wattage for it to grow shorter (thats how pygmy chain sword does).

Glosso likes high light, so it may not do well under 2wpg.


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## emc7

I would add some sort of cave. A coconut shell or hollow driftwood. The rams need a defensible area to put their wigglers in. With the UG gone, they might did down to the glass.


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## Damon

Rams will spawn under plants,driftwood and whatnot. Mine spawn under a piece of driftwood and or my crypts. A cave may help though.


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## rcomeau

I will give a cave a try. I had some hope at one point when the plants formed an area that a pair of Rams had to swim down into. That only lasted a day as well.

I was on vacation for a week. The mini cycle is apparently over. Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates = 0. KH=3 PH=7.6 I'm trying more DIY CO2 to add CO2 and bring down the PH. The colors of the fish look dark. Perhaps they don't like the PH at 7.6.


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## Ownager2004

Perhaps your fish got a tan? 
Usually if fish are not doing well or liking something they will look washed out and dull vs. more colorful.


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## rcomeau

The tank is doing well now. It seems to have stabilized. I'm just not getting any obvious plant growth. My next effort will be to fix the likely CO2 degasing from two air stones and a bubble curtain. I'm thinking of trying one of the glass defusers sold on ebay with a DIY bottle. (I already know that I should loose the air stones. I just like the simplicity of the filters.)

I'm still loosing leaves. Still discouraging.

The greenwater seems to be under control. I might be confident enough to add some fertilizer soon. If that causes another greenwater bloom then I might consider a cheap UV sterilizer.

The Rams found cave-like areas in the plants. They still didn't leave the eggs for longer than a day.

Time for a new discus or more.

I have been trying to establish a school of neon tetras. I know that they are not ideal for my water conditions by that is the challenge. I also read that they fit in the mouths of the angels and/or discus. That has never been a problem for me... until this week. At least that is my suspicion. One is gone.

The angels and rams have started to like the ground beef and paprika that I try to feed the discus.

The glosso and another plant died. I don't know why. 96W of 10,000K, 7 hour/day, 50 gallons, planted in eco, 3 KH, 7.2 PH, 84 deg F.


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## AndrewH

Perhaps a lower K tube would help. Natural sunlight is 5000K to 7500K. I know everything I read says 10,000K and what not (I am assuming because of the effects of the light traveling through the water before getting to the plants), but seems to reason that with clear water you should try to match the sun as close as possible.

(I reserve the right to be completely wrong and labeled a plant idiot)

I'm just getting started in the plant side of it myself, so my advise should definitely be double, triple backed up before tried.


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## Lupin

rcomeau said:


> I have been trying to establish a school of neon tetras. I know that they are not ideal for my water conditions by that is the challenge. I also read that they fit in the mouths of the angels and/or discus. That has never been a problem for me... until this week. At least that is my suspicion. One is gone.


True but discus will easily eat only those that are quite sluggish in movements. Angels however, will eat your neons.


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## Damon

Whenever you change your parameters, your plants will feel the effect. Faster growing plants show more ill effects than others. It takes about 2 weeks for your plants to adjust. Keeping your parameters stable will allow better growth. Not all plants grow fast either.


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## rcomeau

The algae seems to be at bay. I added some fertilizer. Should I be afraid of fertilizer causing an algae bloom or will it help the plants to the extent that it reduces algae?

I bought 5 Cardinal Tetras today. I will try to get the PH lower than 7.2 for them.

Some commented earlier that the Actinic light doesn't do anything for freshwater aquariums. I just read that a reason that it looks good is because the blue of actinic replicates how red and green are absorbed from sun light in deep water so mostly blue reaches deep.


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## rcomeau

What kind of algae is on the leaf in this photo and what should I do about it?









I think the plant with the algae is a Amazon Sword and it is by a dark green java fern. I'm about to rip out the sword plant because they get algae like that and I haven't had any luck getting any growth out of them. Any suggestions for plants that will stay green like the java fern? (2.5w/gallon, 84 deg F, eco complete, occasional DIY CO2)

I'm looking to get a cheap turbo twist UV sterilizer.

The plants have been in the eco for a while now. I expected that they would grow significantly. Not. I still don't think I can point to any new growth.

I got lazy about water changes the last few weeks and my DIY CO2 has been out for a while. Algae eater died a few weeks ago. PH=7.8 and algae is back as pictured. All plants but the java fern are covered with algae. I changed the water the last three days and added another bottle of CO2. But the damage is done. I will get a new algae eater but I have never seen leaves recover from such algae. So, I'm about to replace most of my plants. What should I get for my conditions? I'm picking from this list of plants that were described as ok for higher temp discus tanks...
Spatterdock 
Java / Lace Ferns 
Dwarf Lily 
Vals 
Ruffle Swords 
Crypts 
Jade Swords 
Rangeri Swords 
Dwarf & Tall Subulata Sag
Red Melon Swords 
Heteranthera 
Didiplis Diandra 
Hygrophila 
Rotala Indica 
Anubias 
Ruffle Sword 
African Bolbitus 
Ozelot Sword 
Anubias and Crypt species (recommend if you're not using CO2)


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## Fishfirst

oto catfish


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## rcomeau

ok, I just got 3 Otocinclus Arnoldis. They are small, hopefully not snacks.


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## Damon

Looks like diatoms. A sign you tank is maturing and settling down. 4-5 otos will work nicely. 10000K light is noon sun when its at its peak. 6500K is morning sun. You may like 8800K or 9325K. 9325 will really bring out the reds in your tank.


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## rcomeau

96W 10K (next bulb will be 9325K) for 5 hrs on 50 gallons
KH=4, PH=7.6 (want 7), CO2=3 (want 15)
DIY CO2 just finished

All of my plants are covered with Algae. The 3 ottos clear some spots but I don't expect them to get rid of all of it.

I thought that the bottle of nutrients that I bought was Flourish Excel. Now that I see that a Flourish Excel bottle clearly says ''Flourish Excel'' I realize that I just have Flourish... a broad spectrum supplement rather than a source of carbon to make up for lack of CO2. Now I know why I read that Flourish Excel should be dosed with a cap a day. It is an attempt to keep up with the CO2 consumption and degassing. That never made any sense to me because the bottle is so small. I thought I was suppose to dose a cap a day just for a week. Perhaps others have had luck supplying carbon with Flourish Excel instead of CO2. Now I know I never tried it.

I think my main lesson learned here is that I have significant light causing significant plants to try to grow resulting in them (or too much airation) using up the carbon without me doing enough to replace it.

Here is my game plan: More frequent water changes and clean the filter frequently. (I'll watch for an ammonia spike.) Black out the tank for a few days this week in hopes of killing the algae. Or, I will get a UV sterilizer light working for the first time. Rip out all of the old plants. Plant new plants. Keep them growing with a cap of Flourish Excel each day until I get compressed CO2.

Does a three-day black out stress the fish anywhere close to killing them?
Any suggestions for a better recovery plan (especially because I am resigned to a significant investment in more plants and compressed CO2)?


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## Phonemonkey

PLEASE listen to the advice given to you about Discus. It seems rather cruel keeping that big guy in solitary confinement.


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## rcomeau

That big ''guy'' has had a girl friend for a while. She laid eggs last night but ''he'' only ate them. I'm hoping he shows some male behavior the next time.


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## rcomeau

I think I have the algae that is sometimes called red, beard, or brush...
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/red-algae.html
10% to 30% water changes every other day for the last two weeks seems to have reduced the algae to the point that some leaves are worth keeping. I'm going to try dipping the plants in bleach (<2%) and two Siamese Algae Eaters.
Also ordered CO2 equipment.


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## Damon

You are on the right track. BBA growth is stopped by the addition of Co2. You will have to remove all infected leaves. An overdose of excel or bleach dip will kill it but will most likely killed the infected leaves also. Dont worry though. The plants will recover in a few weeks. Overdosing excel is not a scientific method (believe it or not it was I who came up with the method and first experiments) but may have detrimental effects to some species of fish.


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## rcomeau

I dipped (not the roots) all of the plants into 0.2% bleach (1.5 cups of 6% bleach diluted into 30 cups) for 2 minutes, rinsed them, then soaked them in clean water for a while. That left most of the BBA in the bucket. The BBA left on the leaves was white/dead. Time will tell if the plants were also hurt or killed. Also bought a few more plants and dipped them in diluted bleach just for a few seconds.

All of the plants look much better now. I hope CO2 helps them stay that way.

I setup new CO2 equipment. The PH meter read 7.9 in the tank after calibrating it. I started with about 30 bubbles/minute. That dropped the PH to 7.5. The diffusion looks good. Many very small bubbles are generated and very few make it near the surface. I had to increase to over 100 bubbles/minute to get the PH to 7.1. The PH meter should turn off the CO2 tonight.

Some people put their CO2 on a timer to turn it off at night when the plants produce CO2 instead of consuming it. Does use of a PH meter accomplish the same thing?


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## rcomeau

Some of the swords seem to have some growth in the center. Most of the leaves eventually went clear after the bleaching. I cut out most of them to the extent that many of the small swords now look like short grass. I figure I would give them a chance to regrow like that rather than just throwing them out. Also bought new plants.

The discus got very dark then I found that my nitrate and nitrate were slightly positive. I figure I was replaced my filter media too much so I was removing too much bacteria. And, I was lazy about using straight tap water instead of aging it to dechlorinate it. That is all fixed now but the algae is coming back. grrrrr. Why?

The original two discus are now a confirmed pair although they are not very good at caring for their eggs. First attempt were eaten quickly with no attempt from the male to fertilize. Eggs from the second attempt were laid on the male. yeah, on him. They both ate them as they fell off. Third attept was laid on the glass, fertilized, fanned for an hour or so, then eaten. At least they are learning. I read that the eating habit is hard to break. 

I got a third discus. Apparently three is a crowd. The pair don't let the new one stay in the front of the tank very long.


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## rcomeau

Back in November I realized that I was confused about Damon's advise... 


> An overdose of excel or bleach dip will kill it


I had dismissed the suggestion to use Excel because I had already used Seachem Flourish and the full name of Excel is Flourish Excel. Now I know that Flourish Excel (bioavailable organic carbon) and Flourish (assorted trace elements) are two different products. I used Flourish before, never Flourish Excel.

A long aquaticplantcentral.com forum post started in 2004 has a lot of ideas about why an overdose is effective. I gave it a try and it worked! I dosed about 2x the bottle's starter recommendation for two or three days then began with normal doses every day. The water got cloudy white for a while. I suppose the bacteria was adjusting. It is very clear now (a few weeks into it).

The algae eater got bigger quickly. I read that the algae is easier for them to eat when it is dying. However, he soon died. Perhaps after all of the algae was gone for a while. Near the end he seemed to be searching and attempting to eat in places I never saw him before.

I cut out the leaves that had holes and/or looked bad. I didn't cut out leaves that were covered in algae but undamaged. I'm glad I didn't. They recovered.

The plants are clearly growing for the first time! I had cut some down near the roots before using Excel because all of the leaves were so bad. They regrew new leaves that are now 4 or 5 inches high. The swords are getting huge and growing babies. One runner grew up and out of the 50g tank and flowered at the tip.

I'm currently treating for Ich with 86deg and almost 1 teaspoon/gallon of salt. The plants seem to be handling the salt ok.

I am going to run like this to see how it goes...
50g, 7 PH regulated with C02, 84 deg (after Ich)
5ml Flourish Excel every day, 5 ml Flourish after water changes (something like the EI method)
30% water changes every 4 or 5 days.
Encouraging!


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