# Is it Christmas...or...



## mrmoby (Jan 18, 2005)

There were some points brought up in the Christmas tree thread I wanted to discuss. Out of respect to Malawian Pro and his tree thread, I opted to start this one.

I should preface this by saying I am not religious, and am a firm believer in seperation of church and state. And to be perfectly honest, not a big fan of Christmas either.

Let me start off by saying this, Christmas IS a religious holiday. It is a day recognizing the birth of Christ. That by it's nature makes it a religious holiday, irregardless of it's status with the federal government. 

This is a country founded by Christians, hence the reason we are today celebrating such holidays. Christmas is a very long celebrated holiday, and not only the founding fathers celebrated it, but so did many of the immigrants that found there way here from other parts of Europe as well as South and Central America. Christmas may be a religious holiday, but is more ingrained as a cultural tradition than a religious experience. Quite honestly, the party, gift giving, comercialized goings on of today have largely stripped Christmas of the religious meaning it had.

Why is it then, that people have become so obsessed with the whole "Happy Holidays" line. This is after all, a nation whose cultural heritage is largely Christian. That is why we are not running around in turbans, or having women covered head to toe in black capes. I would not got to Saudi arabia, or Israel for that matter and expect to be wished a Merry Christmas.

I guess I just don't understand why it is so offensive. It's not like someone wishing death or plague upon you. Most people, whether they celebrate or not, at least have a day off, so at the very least a Merry Christmas can be taken as "have a great day off".

And the real kicker is this, the expression "Holiday Tree" Come on, what other holiday has an evergreen treee decorated with lights and ornaments? Ramadan? Kwanzaa? Hanukkah? It becomes really foolish when we try real hard to pretend a symbol of something really isn't, but we know it is anyway.

I am all for seperation of church and state. But as long as the government doesn't tell me I have to put up a tree, sing songs, eat a turkey, give someone some cologne, and receive a pair of socks, or go to church I don't have a problem with puclic celebration of Christmas.

I'll even take it a step further. I don't much care that "In God We Trust" is on every greenback in my wallett. Hell, anyone that does can send them to me. I'll giove them a good, albeit temporary, home.

Bottom line is, people need to stop being so damn sensitive. If you over hear "Merry Christmas" you will not burst into flames. I'd be willing to bet money on that. It's not too often you can learn a valuable lesson from a cartoon, but watch the Mr.Hanky episode of South Park. For some Fecal based humor, it sure says a lot.

Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad, Joy Noel, or (insert your particular language here).


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

Great point, mrmoby.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Good post mrmoby. Well thought out. I respect your position.


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## Osiris (Jan 18, 2005)

mrmoby said:


> Bottom line is, people need to stop being so damn sensitive. If you over hear "Merry Christmas" you will not burst into flames. I'd be willing to bet money on that. It's not too often you can learn a valuable lesson from a cartoon, but watch the Mr.Hanky episode of South Park. For some Fecal based humor, it sure says a lot.


 


Technically, you could actually burst into flames, if someone sprayed you with certain highly flammable chemical, that was able to start on fire by someone's saliva, that that person has been injected with a catalyst, if they person says "merry christmas" to you and little bit of their spit lands on you, you could burst into flames. :cake:


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## AshleytheGreat (Jul 24, 2005)

Hahahaha Mp!


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## DUSTIN323 (Sep 21, 2005)

Really good point mrmoby youv'e gained some respect from me for the way you feel.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

You should come to the UK then Mrmoby, we don't have such a "happy clappy" feel over here. There aren't as many practising Christians, hardly any mobsters.
And did you know that Christmas wasn't origionaly to celebrate the birth of Christ dispite the name. It was actually to celebrate the shorter winter nights.

God bless.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Sorry, cichlid man. You are wrong about that. The celebration of Christmas was started in 336 AD by the Catholic Church in Rome to "eclipse" a pagan holiday to celebrate winter solstice. I didn't know that.... I just looked it up. LOL.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

There we go, same thing.:lol:


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Doesn't sound like the same thing to me. Christmas was started be the Christian Church. The pagans didn't celebrate Christmas. They celebrated something else...


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

There we go then, it had nothing to do with Christ.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Those pagans also were in the habit of chopping down & decorating trees at that time. Christmas simply assimilated the practice as a way to help smooth the transition for the new converts. I read in the paper today that somebody is having a big fuss over the national christmas tree being called a "holiday tree" instead, and while I agree with their sentiment in that this PC crap has really gone too far, the ironic part is that "holiday" tree is really a better fitting name considering it's true origin.

April 6th is really Jesus's birthday, by the way. LOL! They changed the celebration date to once again try to wipe out the Tmuzian holiday of Dec 25 or thereabouts.
( or so I've heard )


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## mrmoby (Jan 18, 2005)

That's my biggest gripe, all the pc nonssense.

You know, I really don't like Christmas, yet the only harm of being exposed to it in my life is a pain in the ass. Growing up I was also exposed to some Hannukkah traditions, and that didn't cause me any lasting harm either.

I guess overall, I am just tired of hearing about people being offended. I know there are names you can call people, and things you can do that are hurtful, but it seems to be really pushing it when you discuss the celebration of Christmas..

People need to lighten up. You know, cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Merry Christmas everybody!!!


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Youre right, christmas is a religious holiday. but not necessarily christian. as I was saying in the other thread, it was stolen from the pagans. Cutting down trees, hanging wreathes, burning candles on christmas (obviously before it was called christmas) was celebrated before jesus was born. nobody really knows when jesus was born, so they adopted the pagan holiday to celebrate his birth. Winter solstice was celebrated around dec 25-ish. they celebrated it much like we celebrate christmas today, they even caroled. druids came up with the mistletoe. trees used as decorations is very old, before christmas used them. so I will celebrate the true christmas, winter solstice. as oldsalt said, some pope just decided to celebrate christs birth on the 25th to help ease the differences in the majority of pagans and minority of christians at the time.

a few more things...

actually mrmoby, for the first 200 years in america european inhabitants did not celebrate christmas. in fact it was illegal for the puritans. it was seen as satans holiday. you'd be surprised at how unchristian out founding fathers were. they were deist, if that.

its so hard to get rid of, or at least relaize its true christian falacies today, because its so ingrained into america.


in god we trust being printed on our money goes back as far as the civil war, howerver the words "under god" in our pledge of allegiance was added int he 1950's out of spite of the communuists.



> Quite honestly, the party, gift giving, comercialized goings on of today have largely stripped Christmas of the religious meaning it had./quote]
> 
> The comerical aspects of the christian christmas are actually the most original part of their holiday.


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## mrmoby (Jan 18, 2005)

First off, BB, absolutely no need for apologies I can understand what you would exppect from me, and don't worry, I am still a cranky old fart. Merry Christmas to you too.

Shev, you are right in that Christmas was outlawed. But that was for a period of 30 years or so in the 1600's, in England, due to peoples distaste for the pagan roots. While it was outlawed in Boston around that time (apparently people preferred burning witches), at the same time it was being celebrated in the Jamestown colony. It continued to be celebrated until shortly after the revolution because people wanted to rid themselves of English customs, but wasn't outlawed at this time. Popular celebration of Christmas picked up in the early 1800's and has been going ever since. Certainly the bulk of the Europeans that arrived here in the mid to late 1800's-early 1900's brought Christmas traditions also. Other than the Jewish population that came in the waves of European immigration, there probably wasn't a diversion from people having largely Christain backgrounds until larger portions of Asian immigrants arrived. And even at that, that probably wasn't much of a factor before the 1930's. That is how ingrained Christain heritage is in this culture. That's just who we are as a culture, and again, as long as Uncle Sam doesn't come to your door on Sunday morning and drag you to Ye Olde House Of Christain Worship, it really shouldn't be a problem.

As far as the commercialized aspects being tied to the early Christian traditions, I don't understand. There is the story of the gifts, that is pretty clear, but fighting people in Walmart for an x-box or the talk of how it makes business their main profits for the year, or even how you need to send everybody and their brother a card has nothing to do with that. That is businees driven, and what has taken the joy out of Christmas for me. Spend a Christmas season or two working in retail, and see what animals people become and the whole "commercialization" aspect takes on new meaning, not to mention their lack of "Christian behavior".

Last point on the "in God We trust line" is this. It is just words. I know how the words got inserted into the pledge, it's really just not that important. They are there, and really not doing any harm. Sometimes you are just as well to let sleeping dogs lie, and save you energies for the larger more important battles. There are definitely places I feel God needs to be left out( I am sure you know where I would go with this) that I won't get into that are far more importaant than a few words here and there.


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## 2complicated (Aug 25, 2005)

im not christian but i celebrate it... im in malaysia where not many people celebrate it. hey mrmoby where you from by the way?


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Oh yeah, I forgot about this thread.


honestly, it never even hit me that "happy hildays" was just a more politically correct way of saying "merry christmas". I just thought that since christmas and the new year were pretty close together you'd say "happy holidays" as in plural. and youre right, political correctness has gone a step too far. and I do just ignore all of them, i realize most americans are religious in some way, but I dont think any liberties should be eroded no matter how small. I may not care, but I dont think others should have to put up with it. and I am a huge believer in the seperation of church and state. that phrase has actually dated allt he back to our founding fathers. originally it was a way of keeping the governement from ruining religion, but it equally keeps religion from ruining the government.

thats why I was more referring to this statement:



> I was gonna stay outta this, but I just can't help it... I am a Christian and I'm proud of it. Christmas is a religious holiday first and a national holiday second. The USA is a Christian nation. Our founding fathers were christians and this country was set up that way. We need to be understanding of other peoples religious beliefs, but anyone that chooses our country as a home needs to understand that it is a CHRISTIAN nation. Is there another country in the world, based on some other religion, that would even consider changing religious traditions in order to be more tolerant. Folks, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, our Lord and savior.... Merry Christmas!!!


Our founding fathers were deist, not necessarily christian. more specifically, jefferson and madison come to mind.but there were many others. the decleration of independence, bill of rights, and constitution came from these men. they grew up during, and were fans of the enlightenment, of course it wasnt called that at the time though. as I said before, you'd be surprised how unchristian our founding fathers were. I have even heard the competely made up quotes of our founding fathers used today by the religious right. our founding fathers would have obviously lost support from the people if they appeared atheist in any way. they intended the government to be secular. secular does not mean it doesnt believe in a god, that would be a religion, but it just means the government is not affiliated with any religion, and is indifferent.


christmas is ingrained into america. as someone already said we get days off because most people are christians, and take the day off to celebrate it. thats why its a federal holiday, because everyones not working anyway. jesus is not the federal hiliday's mascot, its santa claus.


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## TinyFish (Dec 25, 2005)

I thought I'd chime in here. I hear a lot about this argument these days. Not sure why, since people have been saying "Happy Holidays" for decades and interpreting that as they liked (As meaning Christmas, Hanukah, New Year's...etc). It sure is faster to say than "Merry Christmas if you celebrate it, or believe in making merry!". My mother, a British National, always thought the 'Merry' part was strange because, where she came from it means 'tipsy'!

I think we are hearing more 'Happy Holidays' now perhaps because businesses are more international, and also more impersonal. In 'the old days' (that perhaps exist only in our imaginations) your local grocer or your company's head maybe knew you personally and would give you the greetings of the season as appropriate, probably with some personal wishes for your family. Now, big companies want to have something to say to their employees and customers, but being big and impersonal, they need something impersonal and, hopefully, innoffensive. 

Now don't get me started on how offensive it possibly is when you think that people are probably telling clerks etc. to say these things to increase sales, thus REALLY exploiting holidays. When it comes right down to it, how many of these greetings are really sincere anyhow and how much is due to someone's secretary being told to send out some cards or some clerk being given a script to read? (Merry Chrismas, Happy Holidays, Would you like fries with that?, Did you find everything you need? Do you want help out with that?, How may I provide you with excellent customer service? etc, etc, etc.)

So I don't think the issue is that Christmas is being outlawed, or whose religion owns the country. Obviously, among friends and family you will wish people happiness according to what you know they like. You woudn't say "Merry Christmas" to a devoutly Jewish friend if you knew it would offend him? Of course not, that wouldn't be very nice, nor very Christian, in my opinion! So the companies that say "Happy Holidays" are probably just hedging their bets. A little trivial perhaps, but that's life.

Now, should anyone be offended by being wished a Merry Christmas? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact is that some people ARE. Just as some people are offended by NOT being wished a Merry Christmas. See my point? A similar example is a coworker of mine. He is devoutly Jewish and, on those grounds, I guess it is a religious name and means a lot to him, objects to having his name shortened into a nickname (this is further complicated by another coworker with the same name who likes the short version!). So everyone takes care to call him by the name he prefers. Yes, it is only a small thing, but we know it means something to him.

Personally, I try to not sweat the small stuff, like when a friend of mine who is a Nun tells me she is praying for me. Do I tell her I don't believe in her praying? No, it might hurt her feelings and worry the poor old dear. So I just say 'thanks' and tell her that we think about her often too. Sometimes it takes just a little mental effort on one's part to see another's point of view and get along politely and lovingly.

So whether is is Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Hanukah, Kwanza, Solstice Night or whatever, let's not quibble over words on either side and wish each other happiness all the days of our lives.

Peace be at your table!

Regards and the greetings of the season,
TinyFish


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

I shocked about a million customers by saying "Merry Christmas" All of our managers at Walmart and associates said Merry Christmas, even over the loudspeaker. No biggie. We were told to say whatever made us comfortable and we did. So Merry Christmas all


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