# plants with undergravel filter?



## Magdelaine

I just got a used 30 gallon tank that I want to set up as a low tech planted tank. It came with an undergravel filter that I'm partial to using (I have it, why not use it) along with an HOB filter that I still have to buy.

However I don't know if undergravel filters would cause any problems for the plants. I'm mainly looking at planting Java moss and ferns, crypts, aponotagons; easy stuff. 

Any thoughts on this?


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## Damon

It can be done, but I surely wouldn't do it. Stick with the HOB. Its all the filtration you will need.


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## euRasian32

if you mean low tech as in a layered substrate, a UGF will disrupt the layers. UGF's in conjunction with other filtering methods, would be ideal for a fish only, non decorated tank.


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## Magdelaine

Hmmm, I guess I mean low tech as in gravel substrate, relatively low light, and no CO2. I'm not sure what you mean by layered substrate? I really couldn't bear to put fish in a non-planted tank, and I planned on adding lava rock and driftwood like in my 10 gallon, so I think that qualifies as "decorated". 

I guess I should leave the UGF aside...


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## mlefev

I grew plants fine with a UGF. I had a 10 gallon tank with 2 filters running out of the base. I used plant-gro fertilizer 2x per month, and never had any problems with the plants dying off. 

Don't use those plants that come in the tubes with gel for a setup with an UGF though...they don't fare well. Try plants such as moss, or anarchis if you plan on keeping the same setup as you have. Also, with a tank that is using an UGF, be happy if you have a few snails...they will actually prune the plants from the dying parts so the stronger pieces of the plant can continue growing. 

Also, as a hint, don't replace more than one filter cartridge at a time...if you have too much fresh charcoal/carbon in your tank, you will notice them die back. Keep your filters on a schedule...like change one every 2 weeks and keep circulating, and your plants should be fine.


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## MyraVan

If you mean this to be a planted tank, please don't use plain gravel! Plain gravel is about the worst you can do for a planted substrate. If you don't want to use expensive things like Flourite, Onyx sand, etc, here are some ideas of cheap things that will be much better for your plants:

* Play sand. This has lots more surface area than gravel so gives the rootlets more attachment points. So it's better than gravel, but still has no nutrients, so the following are better

* Play sand with a layer of Laterite underneath it. Laterite is basically a kind of clay and is very rich in iron. Clay provides more attachment area than anything else, so this is a good choice.

* My favorite, which is 1 to 1.5" of soil (cheap topsoil fromt he garden center) covered by 1 to 1.5" of plain gravel. This is exceedingly cheap and works very well. It has several drawbacks though: for the first few months you an expect your water to be quite yellow and to have more the usual amounts of algae. But after that you get a very stable environment and good plant growth, and the only drawback that remains is that whenever you stir up the substrate (like when you add or remove plants) some soil gets into the water and turns it cloudy for a few hours, until it all settles down again.


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## Magdelaine

I was kinda going by what was written here : http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=17. Since very few of my plants will be rooted, I figured I could get away with gravel alone. 

However, my favorite idea of the ones you presented is that of the garden soil/gravel combo. I'm strongly thinking of doing that in the 10 gallon tank just to see how it works. Play sand may also be an option...especially because I really would like some kuhli loaches in the 30 gallon. I just can't decide. My budget for these things, including plants, is pretty small otherwise I would just choose something and try it...


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## MyraVan

You wrote:
"Since very few of my plants will be rooted, I figured I could get away with gravel alone. "

Ah, good point! I should have asked you what you were planning on growing before I dissed the gravel.

I really like the garden soil/gravel combo, but if you go this route, you must be patient. This substrate is for people who are lazy (because it doesn't require much work to maintain), short of money (because it's so cheap), and patient (because for the first few months it probably won't look great because of the yellow water and more than usual algae). If you are sufficiently patient, you will be (eventually) rewarded with a low-maintenance, nice-looking tank with lots of healthy growing plants.


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## Damon

Myra, I am going to plan a 10 gallon soil based substrate soon. After reading and speaking with Tom Barr (who uses soil in a few tanks also like Diana W) he reccommends boiling the soil first to get the ammonia out. He says it will cut down on the algae in the beginning and load it with nitrates. Sounds like a good idea.


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## MyraVan

Simpte said:


> Myra, I am going to plan a 10 gallon soil based substrate soon.


My gosh, am I going to have to try out a high-tech tank in return?

Just kidding.

I haven't had any problems with ammonia in new tanks, just algae and yellow water. I use sterilized soil and proper aquatic soil, not random garden soil; maybe that has something to do with it?


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## Damon

Could be. But I am giving this method more credence the more I read about it. Still waiting for my latest issue of TAG to arrive.


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## TheOldSalt

I use this method on occasion, with only one modification, and it works very well.
I use 1 inch of plain topsoil which has no additives. I pack it down pretty hard and cover it with another 1/2 inch of fine grade gravel, which is kind of like sand, but not sand, although sand would probably work too. I should probably add laterite, but I don't. The sand serves to keep the soil down a bit. Then I _carefully_ fill the tank halfway, and plant heavily. After planting, I cover everything with another inch of normal gravel for decor purposes. Naturally, an undergravel filter won't work with this arrangement, so I use externals.
The results are quite good. After the first few careful water changes, the discoloration of the water disappears. Algae hasn't been a problem either, although I attribute that to the heavy initial planting & water changes.

As for UGF's with plants, I don't have much luck with that. I do have a UGF'ed tank full of things like java ferns and marimo balls & banana plants which don't care about the substrate, and they do okay, but rooted plants don't.


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## Damon

TheOldSalt said:


> Algae hasn't been a problem either, although I attribute that to the heavy initial planting & water changes.


This is key to a successful planted tank. Planting heavy from the start will save you a lot of headache dealing with algae. Even if you don't plan on keeping the plants, purchase lots of cheap easy plants that you can discard later. (Anacharis is one that is very cheap(.


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## MyraVan

Diana Walstad suggests floating and emergent plants to keep nutrient levels under control. I don't have big enough tanks to lower the water level for emergent plants, but I do use small floaters: duckweed, salvinia, and water lettuce. The roots of the water lettuce look nice trailing in the water.


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## Pareeeee

I have an Undergravel Filter (with powerhead not airpump) in my 33 gallon planted tank, plus I use *only*gravel as my substrate...the tank houses the following plants:
Hygrophila polysperma, Marimo Ball, Jungle Vallisneria, Amazon Swords, 
Ozelot Swords, Cryptocoryne willii "lucens", Cryptocoryne wendtii brown, 
Anubias barteri (nana), another Anubias sp., Alternathera roseofolia.
They are doing quite well (except the Alternathera roseofolia isnt doing 100% cause i got it before i got my higher lighting and co2. the co2 is helping it make a comeback now though  )


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## Damon

MyraVan said:


> Diana Walstad suggests floating and emergent plants to keep nutrient levels under control. I don't have big enough tanks to lower the water level for emergent plants, but I do use small floaters: duckweed, salvinia, and water lettuce. The roots of the water lettuce look nice trailing in the water.


All my tanks are open top. The lights are on legs so if I allow them to grow the will grow emergent.


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## Magdelaine

From what I've read, I definitely want to plant heavily from the beginning with my new 29 gallon. I have a problem with my LFS, though. I went in after four different "shipment days", 8 weeks in a row, to see if they had gotten in the Java moss I had requested and they never did (and I haven't been back since). Also I asked for them to order water sprite and although they swore what came in was water sprite aka water lettuce it didn't resemble any example of water sprite I could find online. Given this, I don't think I can trust them to stock my tank when the time comes.

Sooo, although I don't want to pay the high shipping charges, it looks like I will have to make an order through an online supplier if I want to "plant heavily". Any suggestions on this? Is there someone in particular you all use?

My other thought was to start a bunch of apos and lily bulbs I can easily get at Walmart in my 10 gallon before putting together the bigger tank and use them as filler with whatever I *can* get through the LFS.


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## mlefev

If you have a credit card, you can order some from liveaquaria.com they ship out quickly. It is about $30 for shipping, but if you know other people who keep aquariums and would like to order plants, you can get the shipping for free

Petco and Petsmart carry some plants, and can order them in. Even Walmart will order them in if you complain enough. You can also check with nurseries...sometimes they can order special plants for you if you make a minimum order of about $50


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## Damon

If you are in the U.S. (Didn't look), there many other, cheaper places to buy from. Here is a short list in no particular order.

http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/index.html
http://www.aquabid.com/
http://www.aquabotanic.com/abstore/index.html
http://www.petsolutions.com/
http://www.aquatic-store.com/

Most of these sites offer packages for various tank sizes.


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## Magdelaine

I live in a small town with limited services. I would be very surprised if there was a nursery here that could order in aquatic plants, however there IS a new pond supply in town so I could check with them. The Walmart here in town just started carrying aquatic plants (4 or 5 with a shipment) but whenever I've asked about a special order for anything they tell me it's impossible... I'm going to try again. Unfortunately I don't know anyone else in town that has plants in their tank (but I'm sure they are out there).

Yikes, with my budget if I have to order online it's going to be six months before I can get this tank going... 

Oh well, it will be worth the wait.


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## Magdelaine

Simpte, thanks for the suggestions. I will be doing some online shopping soon. 

BTW, I *have* been working on something else lately, something that's making a lot of noise in my lap at the moment. Born 7/31:


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## MyraVan

Wonderful! He/she is very cute! Your first?

My husband and I have a 2.5 year old daughter. We do lots of fun things together. Little kids are great!


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## Damon

Babies are great, little kids are headaches, toddlers are nonstop annoyances, and teenagers, well lets just say they are unique. Makes me wish that they could stay small forever. lol


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## Magdelaine

Simpte, you are right on the money. I have a 12 going on 17 year old boy and "unique" is definitely the polite term.

Myravan, this is boy #3! Others are 12 and 3.5. You can see why a nice, planted tank with peaceful healthy fishies is just what the doctor ordered for me... Both my tanks are going in my kitchen where I will be able to watch fishies while doing dishes. And I do a lot of dishes!

Simpte, where do you get the gravel you described? Is it available through the local Home Depot or do you get it at your LFS?

Thanks


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## Damon

For substrates like eco-complete, onyx sand and the like, you LFs may carry one or the other. Most on-line shops that sell fish and or aquatic supplies have them. As far as soil, any soil will do provided it doesn't have fertilizer or any other additives in it.


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