# Please help! My Angel is very sick!



## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Please can someone help me? I have a 4 year old angel that is very sick. I was a first time fish owner 4 years ago and bought several angel fish. I went through probably half a dozen before one finally lived. Well, she has been with me every since. My problems all started when I thought she was lonely and bought another big angel fish early this year to go with her. They got along great.. but a couple months later the new angel got sick? It got a clear blue/white film on her. The pet store said to clean the tank real well. I cleaned it and changed my filters at the same time. I did not know that I wasn't supposed to do that. Well, then my nitrates soared and I got new tank syndrome. Well, after making a mad dash to the store to get some nitrate stuff and doing a partial water change.. my fish still died the next day. Everything seemed fine until a couple weeks ago when I noticed spots on my 4 year old angel. Then shortly after that there was what looked like salt on the sores. I called the store and was told that it was parasites in the water and that is what caused the sores and then it turned into ick. Well, I had only put a antifungus in the water. And yesterday I got paid and rushed to the pet store and bought "Super Ick" and "Copper-Safe". I put the Super Ick in there last night and it turned the water green. My fish is still staying close to the top of the water and the "salt" is still on her. She won't eat at all. I don't know if this is related or not but she also just turnes to the left. I never see her turn to the right lately. Anyway, I am watching her closely and I raised the water temp to 80 to 81 degrees. I was told that raising it will speed up the life cycles of the parasites. I only used the Super Ick so far. There are three times I put it in the water. I have only done the first treatment. I have to wait till tomorrow night for the second. I also am not putting Copper Safe in there till all this is over with, because I am afraid it will overmedicate my fish. I don't know if that is correct though? If it will help can I put it in now? I checked my levels and this is what I got... Nitrite is 0, Nitrate is 5.0 (is this high?), PH is 7.2, Temp is 81. I also have some extra aquarium salt in there. I don't know when I have too much though? What now? Any suggestions? Anything else I can do? Please hurry I am afraid I am going to lose her. She is covered in white spots, even on her eyes.:-(


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

5.0 Nitrate is normal, not too high.

What size is your tank?

Look up some pictures of fish diseases on google. Look up Ich, for example - are those the white spots you were seeing?

http://www.angelsplus.com/FAQhealth.htm

How much salt is in the water? I use 1tbsp per 5 gallons of water to treat Ich (if that's what you have). If she does have ich, it sounds pretty serious, and you may lose her. I hope not, though. There's nothing you can for her, if she has ich, except to treat the water which will kill the free-swimming parasites - but not the ones already on her.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Thank you for your quick response. I have a 30 gallon with 2 filters going. I looked at images and yes it is ick. Not sure how much salt is in the water. I started putting salt in there back when my other fish was sick. Everytime I do a water change I add that portion of salt back in. I put some extra in there once in awhile because I heard it helps with stress on sick fish. I don't know if there is too much or not. I have a silly question. I never turn the light on in the tank because she thinks it is another fish and she doesn't eat anything when it is one. It is weird. I also read that it makes bacteria grow faster. However, she seems to get more active when the light is on since she has been sick. Should I leave it on for her.. or is that just causing more stress because she thinks there is another fish?
Thanks again for your help. I very much hope she lives. She did turn the other way a minute ago. Also, any help on the stuff to put in there? Can I put the Copper Safe in there with the Super Ick treatment? What do I do if she is not eating.. ? Also, does the temp and everything look ok? Am I doing everything right? Thanks again.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

cwoods said:


> I have a 30 gallon with 2 filters going. I looked at images and yes it is ick. Not sure how much salt is in the water. I started putting salt in there back when my other fish was sick. Everytime I do a water change I add that portion of salt back in. I put some extra in there once in awhile because I heard it helps with stress on sick fish. I don't know if there is too much or not.


I suggest that you do a big water change now. Vacuum the gravel and take out like 50% of the water. Then put water back in with 1tbsp of salt per 5 gallons of new water. In the future, angelfish do not require salt in their water (unless you're treating Ich or Velvet). They say that it "reduces stress" but I believe that it doesn't really do anything.



cwoods said:


> I never turn the light on in the tank because she thinks it is another fish and she doesn't eat anything when it is one. It is weird. I also read that it makes bacteria grow faster. However, she seems to get more active when the light is on since she has been sick. Should I leave it on for her.. or is that just causing more stress because she thinks there is another fish?


I'm not sure why she would think the light is another fish? Anyway, fish do have "day" and she should have a light during the day, unless you have a bright room. You could add some plants (fake or real), driftwood, etc, to make her feel more secure. Angelfish love plants. More light will induce algae growth, yeah, but not anything alarming. Most of us have lights on our tanks and the tanks are going fine 




> Also, any help on the stuff to put in there? Can I put the Copper Safe in there with the Super Ick treatment? What do I do if she is not eating.. ? Also, does the temp and everything look ok? Am I doing everything right? Thanks again.


No, don't put anything else. IMO the only useful thing for treating Ich is salt. If she's not eating, you could offer "treats" like bloodworms or brineshrimp... It may get her eating.

81F is fine (bring it back to 79-80F after the Ich is gone). Increasing the temp for Ich makes the lifecycle go by more quickly, thus killing the Ich more quickly.

So, keep the water clean and keep the salt at that level for 2 weeks.

Good luck!


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

I would do a water change, but I already did the first step of the three step treatment with Super Ick. It says after the third step (which will be in 3 days), then do a water change and change the filters. I want to make sure I don't mess up the treatment?
The reason she thinks it is another fish is because she can see her reflection in the glass. Do you leave the lights on all the time? She is close to a window, so she does get some natural light but not directly.
Sad thing is that I tried to give her bloodworms, her favorite. She didn't eat a single one. She usually loves them.
As for salt.. hmm.. what level? Not sure what to do on this? 
Thanks for the quick replies!


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

You could put a background on the back of the tank, but eventually she should get over seeing her reflection. I have my lights on 8hrs/day. You can do anywhere from 8 to 12hours per day.

She's probably feeling too sick to eat.

About the Super Ick treatment - this is just my opinion, but I would take out the water to take out the Super Ick. In my experience and from what I've heard, the ich meds do as much bad as they do good. The salt will not hurt your angel but will kill the ich just as well as any ich treatment would. If you want to keep on with the Super Ich, then follow the instructions on the box.

Otherwise, take out 70-80% of the water and replace it with new water, with 1tablespoon of salt per gallon of water.


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## Worrywort (Jul 26, 2006)

The advice from Zoe is the best way to go. Stick with the treatment directions and do the water change as quickly as possible. Then again every other day for up to a week. Leave the filters alone though so they can build bacteria. Don't be afraid to raise the temp. even higher, up to 90 degrees is ok for short term treatments. The main thing I'm noticing about your fishes behavior is that she is severly stressed. You are doing everything you can right now, andf I would not add the copper safe at this time to try to keep the stress down. The salt and higher temp.s will actually help with the stress and water changes tend to increase metabolism and immunities. Just make sure you are using a good dechlorinator and that the new water is the same temperature as the tank and all should work out. Good Luck!


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

*..*

Thanks. I don't know what to do.. I just don' t want to hurt her. Water changes are very stressful on fish and I just did one.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Zoe said:


> About the Super Ick treatment - this is just my opinion, but I would take out the water to take out the Super Ick. In my experience and from what I've heard, the ich meds do as much bad as they do good. The salt will not hurt your angel but will kill the ich just as well as any ich treatment would. If you want to keep on with the Super Ich, then follow the instructions on the box.
> 
> Otherwise, take out 70-80% of the water and replace it with new water, with 1tablespoon of salt per gallon of water.


I definitely agree with the above. I'd do a massive water change to remove as much of the chemical as possible, then replace it with water that has the salt thoroughly dissolved in it. Remember, too, that when you have to do a water change when there is salt in the water, top off the amount that's evaporated with unsalted water first, then remove the water and calculate the amount of salt in the water being replaced.

Not sure what you meant by getting some "nitrate stuff" but IMO the only stuff you should be adding to the tank is a declorinator, and salt for the ich. Prime (and possibly Amquel+ but I'm not sure) will detoxify ammonia, nitrites and nitrates without messing with the biological filter.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

cwoods said:


> Thanks. I don't know what to do.. I just don' t want to hurt her. Water changes are very stressful on fish and I just did one.


Regular water changes shouldn't be stressful on the fish as long as its done properly, with the water temp as close as possible and the water declorinated.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

*..*



Worrywort said:


> The advice from Zoe is the best way to go. Stick with the treatment directions and do the water change as quickly as possible. Then again every other day for up to a week. Leave the filters alone though so they can build bacteria. Don't be afraid to raise the temp. even higher, up to 90 degrees is ok for short term treatments. The main thing I'm noticing about your fishes behavior is that she is severly stressed. You are doing everything you can right now, andf I would not add the copper safe at this time to try to keep the stress down. The salt and higher temp.s will actually help with the stress and water changes tend to increase metabolism and immunities. Just make sure you are using a good dechlorinator and that the new water is the same temperature as the tank and all should work out. Good Luck!


Should I do a water change right now? Is that Super Ick not good for my fish? I just know that I have been putting aquarium salt in there for months now and extra lately since she has been sick and she is worse than ever. I am very worried about stopping the ick treatment. I only have one treatment. If I do a water change now it will not work.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> I definitely agree with the above. I'd do a massive water change to remove as much of the chemical as possible, then replace it with water that has the salt thoroughly dissolved in it. Remember, too, that when you have to do a water change when there is salt in the water, top off the amount that's evaporated with unsalted water first, then remove the water and calculate the amount of salt in the water being replaced.
> 
> Not sure what you meant by getting some "nitrate stuff" but IMO the only stuff you should be adding to the tank is a declorinator, and salt for the ich. Prime (and possibly Amquel+ but I'm not sure) will detoxify ammonia, nitrites and nitrates without messing with the biological filter.


Ok.. I usually just put the salt directly in the tank and if falls to the bottom. Also, Zoe said 1 tablespoon per 30 gallon. The directions on the box says 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. I surely don't have enough salt to put in 30 tablespoons!
Nitrate stuff.. well, there are these little packets of "rocks/granuels" that you put in the filters and it lowers the nitrates.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

If I said 1tbsp/30 gallons, I meant 1 tbsp/5 gallons. So a total of 6 tablespoons in your tank...
I would do the water change immediately.
Oh, you MUST disolve the salt before putting it in the tank. Disolve it in warm, dechlorinated water and then poor it into the tank. If you put it in as granules, it will burn your angel.

The nitrogen cycle, once established, should regulate the nitrites, nitrates and ammonia on its own.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> If I said 1tbsp/30 gallons, I meant 1 tbsp/5 gallons. So a total of 6 tablespoons in your tank...
> I would do the water change immediately.
> Oh, you MUST disolve the salt before putting it in the tank. Disolve it in warm, dechlorinated water and then poor it into the tank. If you put it in as granules, it will burn your angel.
> 
> The nitrogen cycle, once established, should regulate the nitrites, nitrates and ammonia on its own.


WOW! I didn't know that?! Usually what I do is use a 1 gallon container to dechlorinate the water and then pour it into the tank. Do I put the salt in that? Or a small container with warmer water in it? Ok. I take out 70 percent of the water? That won't mess up the ph, nitrates, etc.? I just did a water change two days ago. And do I contiue the "super ick" treatment after the water change? How much salt do I put back in the water if I do 70 percent water change?


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Put the salt in a seperate cup / bowl of warm water. Stir it until the salt is disolved.

Taking out the water shouldn't mess with the pH, etc. Your bacterial colony is mostly in your filter and in your gravel, and one angel is a fairly light bioload, so it should be fine. There's nothing wrong with doing small daily water changes if you notice your ammonia / nitrite levels are a little high.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Put the salt in a seperate cup / bowl of warm water. Stir it until the salt is disolved.
> 
> Taking out the water shouldn't mess with the pH, etc. Your bacterial colony is mostly in your filter and in your gravel, and one angel is a fairly light bioload, so it should be fine. There's nothing wrong with doing small daily water changes if you notice your ammonia / nitrite levels are a little high.


I have a problem though. when I got that Super Ick treatment the directions said to get rid of the filters. They are gone. I only have brand new filters that are supposed to go back in after the treatment is all done. The last time I put in new filters and did a water change, I got new tank syndrome and my fish died. Can I keep the filters out for now? What are your thoughts?


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Ugh. You misread the instructions. They should say remove the CARBON from the filters, not the filters. You have little to no cycle now. The filter media rarely needs to be changed, just rinse it out and stick it back in the tank. Can be used for months, even years, until it starts falling apart. Most filters have, or should have, two types of filter media. Never change both at the same time. You MUST have filters on your tank or all of your fish are going to die.

See if your LFS has Biospira. Put the filters back on, and if you get some Biospira, add it immediately. If not, daily water changes and use something like Prime to declorinate the water and detoxify the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

It may be that it was one of those "two-in-one" filters, with the carbon in the "sponge pocket".

If that's the case, cwoods, in the future, get your filter parts separately (get the carbon sacs, and the sponges separately). If your "new" filters that you have now and two-in-one, bring them back and get sponges and carbon, and put the sponge in the filter if you plan on continuing the super ich treatment - or put both filters in if you plan on doing the salt treatment (Most medications indicate that you must remove the carbon from your filter, but not the sponge - you need the sponge).


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Ugh. You misread the instructions. They should say remove the CARBON from the filters, not the filters. You have little to no cycle now. The filter media rarely needs to be changed, just rinse it out and stick it back in the tank. Can be used for months, even years, until it starts falling apart. Most filters have, or should have, two types of filter media. Never change both at the same time. You MUST have filters on your tank or all of your fish are going to die.
> 
> See if your LFS has Biospira. Put the filters back on, and if you get some Biospira, add it immediately. If not, daily water changes and use something like Prime to declorinate the water and detoxify the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.


I am so confused! Ok.. the instructions say this exactly..
"For best results, remove activated carbon or filter cartridge from filter and continue aeration." I didn't remove the actual filter that circulates the water.. just the cartridge and the spongy thing. So it is still moving water there is just nothing in it..


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> It may be that it was one of those "two-in-one" filters, with the carbon in the "sponge pocket".
> 
> If that's the case, cwoods, in the future, get your filter parts separately (get the carbon sacs, and the sponges separately). If your "new" filters that you have now and two-in-one, bring them back and get sponges and carbon, and put the sponge in the filter if you plan on continuing the super ich treatment - or put both filters in if you plan on doing the salt treatment (Most medications indicate that you must remove the carbon from your filter, but not the sponge - you need the sponge).


I have never replaced my spongy thing.. I just rinse it out. I do replace my filters once a month.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> just the cartridge and the spongy thing. So it is still moving water there is just nothing in it..


You're supposed to leave the sponge in it. When they say "activated carbon" they mean just the carbon. The "filter cartridge" is the 2-in-one thing I refering to, with both the carbon and the sponge in the same unit. Those typically come with the filter when you buy them but they aren't as effective as having the two parts separate.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

No news yet. She still will not eat and she is staying in one corner of the tank most of the time toward the top of the water. I saw her bump into the walls last night. That is not a good sign. Pray for my little fish. Thanks again for all the help and I will keep you posted.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear that cwoods  But she may do a 180 turnaround yet.

Did you stick with the Super Ich treatment, or did you go with the salt?

Zoe


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> I'm sorry to hear that cwoods  But she may do a 180 turnaround yet.
> 
> Did you stick with the Super Ich treatment, or did you go with the salt?
> 
> Zoe


Well, I went and got some aquarium salt and took some water out of the tank and put it into a 1 gallon. I then mixed the salt and put her in there for 10 minutes. I was told to do that three times a day. I also was told it was ok to pick her up with my hands!? I thought that was a big no no. The lady at the store said that the nets actually cut them. Oh.. I hope I am doing the right thing. Last night I did a partial water change and added the second treatment of ick cure. I am just watching her closley.So I guess I am doing a little of both. Think that is ok?


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Oh good God, you seriously need to stop listening to that idiot! She's going to kill that poor fish. Please go back and re-read our instructions on this thread about how to treat it. And no, do not pick it up with your hands. Use a net.


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## Osiris (Jan 18, 2005)

Just a side note if your dealing with a diseased fish with your hands you best make sure you wash your hands good when your done...


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

so I DO NOT give her salt baths? I DO NOT touch her? oh.. this is so hard. I want to do the right thing. How frustrating..


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Osiris said:


> Just a side note if your dealing with a diseased fish with your hands you best make sure you wash your hands good when your done...


thanks.. I will do that. Could it make you sick?


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Oh good God, you seriously need to stop listening to that idiot! She's going to kill that poor fish. Please go back and re-read our instructions on this thread about how to treat it. And no, do not pick it up with your hands. Use a net.


She said putting it in there will help it destress..


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I don't think a salt bath will do anything good for a fish with ich. I could be wrong, but I believe that when the ich is under the fish's skin, it is protected and cannot be killed by salt. I would expect that the stress of being handled and moved and put into a high salt bath would be worse than whatever benefits. However, I'm not sure I'm right, so I do welcome a second opinion on that one.

No, don't touch her with your hands, use a net. 

I know it's tough on your cwoods but everyone has to start somewhere, and you can't magically know something without learning it. And all the conflicting advice out there doesn't help. It's too bad that sometimes human mistakes cause the death of fish but... it's part of the hobby, and it's happened to everyone.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

The ich isn't under the skin, but its hard shell is attached to the skin. Ich is only killable in its free-floating stage (there are 3 stages to its life cycle). However, the salt baths, depending on how much salt is used, can cause osmotic (sp?) shock and kill the fish. I would highly recommend NOT doing them anymore. They do not de-stress the fish, they do the opposite.

Do what we recommended, add salt to the tank (after dissolving it in water first - start with 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons). The tank itself must be treated as the ich is present in there. 

And yes, touching a sick fish with your hands and not disinfecting them afterwards can make you ill. However, be sure not to stick your hands back in the tank once you have used soap, especially antibacterial, lotion or anything else on your hands.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> The ich isn't under the skin, but its hard shell is attached to the skin. Ich is only killable in its free-floating stage (there are 3 stages to its life cycle). However, the salt baths, depending on how much salt is used, can cause osmotic (sp?) shock and kill the fish. I would highly recommend NOT doing them anymore. They do not de-stress the fish, they do the opposite.
> 
> Do what we recommended, add salt to the tank (after dissolving it in water first - start with 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons). The tank itself must be treated as the ich is present in there.
> 
> And yes, touching a sick fish with your hands and not disinfecting them afterwards can make you ill. However, be sure not to stick your hands back in the tank once you have used soap, especially antibacterial, lotion or anything else on your hands.


Wow.. I was wondering that same thing! I always put lotion on my hands at night. And the last couple nights she keeps knocking the thermometer off the glass. I put my hands in there several times after I had put lotion on them. I won't do that again.. thanks for the advice.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

She died. Last night she was livelier than usual and all the white was off of her.. I thought perhaps she was going to make it. I went in there this morning and she was caught under the filter between the glass and a plant. She just didn't have the strength I guess to get back to the top. Looks like she got stuck. You think it was still the illness that killed her? I have to say that I cried some tears when I sawy her. I have one little lonely fish in there now. I had two little teeny fish to keep her company. One died last week (probably from the ick). This one doesn't seem to be sick at all. If I didn't have that one in there I was just going to empty my tank and start all over again. What do you think I should do now? I am thinking I won't get anymore angels. They hurt too bad when they die. They get so big and pretty.. Thanks for all the help. I gave tried everything. Any suggestions on getting new fish that don't die so easy?


P.S. The only thing that makes me feel a little bit better is that I did the math and she was 4 1/2 years old. So she was really old. I gave her a long life.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> The ich isn't under the skin, but its hard shell is attached to the skin


Are you certain about that? My understanding was that the ich parasite is between the layers of skin, feeding off the skin and irritating thus causing the cyst. What I've read seems to confirm this. Is that incorrect? Are just merely "stuck" to the fish?

I'm sorry to hear that she died, cwoods  I would invest in a quarantine tank so that you can observe any new fish and possibly treat them for ich or other diseases before you put them into your main tank.
I have some suggestions for 'new' fish, but I suggest that you first get a quarantine tank (a used 10gallon would suffice - you can even make it nice with lots of plants) and quarantine your original fish and treat it for Ich with salt in the water (1tbsp / 5gallons). In the meantime, clean out your main tank thoroughly (boil any pieces of rock, run the gravel / wood under hot hot water) and let it run and cycle. That should get rid of any resident ich. At that point you can put your fish back in and you will not have ich anywhere.

Some fish suggestions:
dwarf gouramis
bolivian rams
kribensis
dwarf rainbows
lemon tetras
keyhole cichlid


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Are you certain about that? My understanding was that the ich parasite is between the layers of skin, feeding off the skin and irritating thus causing the cyst. What I've read seems to confirm this. Is that incorrect? Are just merely "stuck" to the fish?


_Ich parasites burrow just under the skin of fish, causing the characteristic "white spot" or trophont stage. At maturity, the adult parasite, called a tomont, detaches from the fish and swims freely for about six hours. The trophozite eventually settles to the bottom of the aquarium. The parasite then secretes a protective membrane. The "cyst" now undergoes many divisions, producing 1,000 or more offspring, called theronts. When the cyst breaks open, up to 1000 theronts emerge in search of a fish host. Theronts invade their fish host by burrowing into the skin with their cilia and digestive enzymes. The tomites feed on fish cells and tissue fluids until mature, starting the cycle over again. Tomites especially devastating to delicate gill tissue. The gills are destroyed by the destructive feeding action of the parasites, causing the fish to suffocate. 

...

Ich parasites can only be killed when they are in the free-swimming theront stage. Medications do not kill the parasites attached to the fish (white spot) or when the parasites are encysted in the gravel. Disappearance of the white spots simply means that the parasites have advanced to the cyst stage. In a few hours or days, depending on water temperature, thousands of infective theronts will burst out in search of a fish host. It is precisely at this point that the medication does its job. Since not all the Ich parasites "hatch out" at the same time, it is necessary to treat the aquarium or pond for several days to insure control. When one fish has ick, all fish in the aquarium or pond will be infected. All fish must be treated. Ich parasites are easily transferred to other aquaria or ponds by nets, hands, boots, etc. Quarantine the infested fish. Do not add or remove fish from the infested aquarium or pond. Begin treatment immediately._

Edit: sorry, forgot the linkage: http://badmanstropicalfish.com/meds/ick.html


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Are you certain about that? My understanding was that the ich parasite is between the layers of skin, feeding off the skin and irritating thus causing the cyst. What I've read seems to confirm this. Is that incorrect? Are just merely "stuck" to the fish?
> 
> I'm sorry to hear that she died, cwoods  I would invest in a quarantine tank so that you can observe any new fish and possibly treat them for ich or other diseases before you put them into your main tank.
> I have some suggestions for 'new' fish, but I suggest that you first get a quarantine tank (a used 10gallon would suffice - you can even make it nice with lots of plants) and quarantine your original fish and treat it for Ich with salt in the water (1tbsp / 5gallons). In the meantime, clean out your main tank thoroughly (boil any pieces of rock, run the gravel / wood under hot hot water) and let it run and cycle. That should get rid of any resident ich. At that point you can put your fish back in and you will not have ich anywhere.
> ...


What kind of plants can go in there. I never put real plants in my aquarium. Is this something I should invest in? Also, I do have a 10 gallon tank already. I will clean it and set it up. When can I move my little fish over to it? I would like a variety of small fish. The ones you listed above, can I put them together?

Also:
I don't know what fish I like. The only other fish I have had are betas. I already have two of those. They are getting old too. How long do they live? I would like a variety of small ones. Not sure on what kind to get? Hey another thing I wanted to mention is that I went and looked at her after I pulled her out of the water and she has no white spots on her, just little bare places. She had not film on her eyes. She did however have little drops of blood on the bottom of her, like from the little pointy fins. (i am not sure how to explain this). I know everything was great in her water. I tested it here and took it and testes it at the store. (levels where all right)


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> What kind of plants can go in there. I never put real plants in my aquarium. Is this something I should invest in?


That depends on your lighting, personal tastes and budget. If you have an aquarium kit you'll probably need to invest in a better light. I bought a coralife freshwater compact fluorescent and I love it, over my 28gal tank it give me about 2.5w/gal, so I can grow some decent plants. It's also very bright, white light. "red" plants tend to be higher light than green plants, but there's still lots of plants that will do fine in a mid-light aquarium (penny wort, wisteria, water sprite, anubias, java moss, java fern, guppy grass, chain sword, amazon sword, spiral or regular valls, banana plants...). If you go with a double-fluorescent light fixture you'll have more like 1.5w/gal but you can still grow lots of stuff. There are loads of articles relating to what plants you can/can't grow, so look it up on google, you'll find lots of pictures, too.
Plants, though, are expensive to have (arguably). You need the lights, to start with, and then the plants (at the LFS plants go for 3-10$ - if you have an aquarists club or know someone in your area with planted tanks, I prefer getting plants that way). You may also want to invest in a CO2 injector (or build on yourself - at the LFS, they cost 20-40$ for a regular, basic one) to help the plants grow and keep algae at bay. You may want to look into buying a bottle of fertilizer and some oto cats to munch the algae, but those aren't necessary.
Personally, I adore planted tanks. But they aren't for everyone. Do some research and then decide 



> When can I move my little fish over to it?


As soon as it is cycled. Personally, I would take some gravel from the main tank, and maybe 6 gallons of water to put in the little tank. It'll cycle pretty much instantly that way (I do suggest, though, that you keep an eye on the nitrite/ammonia levels just to make sure there isn't a spike of either - if there is, make sure you feed the tank with some fish food to feed the bacteria until the fish is there). Once it's cycled, you can put the fish in. Don't forget the salt treatment (1tbsp/5gallons, disolved first in warm water).



> I would like a variety of small fish. The ones you listed above, can I put them together?


For the most part, yes. You have to consider things like aggressivity, bio load, and stocking levels. For example, you'll want some mid-top dwellers (say, a school of neon tetras and a school of dwarf rainbows, and a dwarf gourami), and you'll want the mid-bottom dwellers (say, a pair or apistogramma, or a pair of kribs, or a pair of rams - only ONE pair, because if they spawn they'll get aggressive with anything that wants to come into their territory).
For your bottom level, you could have a group of corydoras, or a bushy-nosed pleco.



> I don't know what fish I like.


While waiting for your 10gal to be completely cycled, take a trip to your LFS. Take a paper and pen, and write down the various fish you like. Don't bother asking the store clerks for advice, they are rarely helpful. Go home and research them, ask the forum about them and their compatibility, etc. This will give you an idication of what you like, what you can afford and what is available at your LFS.
Then you can mentally put together your ideal tank, and we'll tell you if it'll work 



> The only other fish I have had are betas. I already have two of those. They are getting old too. How long do they live?


2-4 years I believe.



> Hey another thing I wanted to mention is that I went and looked at her after I pulled her out of the water and she has no white spots on her, just little bare places. She had not film on her eyes. She did however have little drops of blood on the bottom of her, like from the little pointy fins. (i am not sure how to explain this). I know everything was great in her water. I tested it here and took it and testes it at the store. (levels where all right)


Your fish may have a secondary infection. When the ich parasites detach from the fish, it leaves an open wound which opens the door for infections like finrot. Keep an eye on your surviving fish and, if necessary, medicate. For the time being, salt and maybe some stress-coat will be benificial.

Give yourself a little time before jumping back into the fishes. You said you've had a few deaths in the past. It may just have been bad luck, but you want to look into the possible causes for the deaths of your fish, so it doesn't happen again.
Did you properly cycle?
Are the fish compatible with each other?
Are the fish compatible with your water parameters?
Do you do regular water changes (how much, how often)?
Are the fish sick from the petstore?
Do you have something in the tank that could be toxic (ie, was the tank re-sealed with the wrong kind of sealant? is the gravel intended for aquariums? are the plastic plants / rocks / wood intended for aquariums?)
Is your filter adequate?
Is the water circulation adequate to keep the water oxygenated?
Is the tank in a high-traffic area, causing possible stress for your fish?
Do you use a dechlorinator?
What is the temperature in your tank, and do you have a thermometer to properly monitor it?
When you do you water changes, are you careful to make sure that the new water is the same temperature as the old water?

I know you've answered some of these questions already, but they are all things to consider.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> That depends on your lighting, personal tastes and budget. If you have an aquarium kit you'll probably need to invest in a better light.


Thanks for all the info! I do have a aquarium kit. It has long bulb in it. I hardly every turned it on though. I heard it makes bacteria grow faster and I have to clean more often. Is that right?



Zoe said:


> I bought a coralife freshwater compact fluorescent and I love it, over my 28gal tank it give me about 2.5w/gal, so I can grow some decent plants. It's also very bright, white light. "red" plants tend to be higher light than green plants, but there's still lots of plants that will do fine in a mid-light aquarium (penny wort, wisteria, water sprite, anubias, java moss, java fern, guppy grass, chain sword, amazon sword, spiral or regular valls, banana plants...). If you go with a double-fluorescent light fixture you'll have more like 1.5w/gal but you can still grow lots of stuff. There are loads of articles relating to what plants you can/can't grow, so look it up on google, you'll find lots of pictures, too.
> Plants, though, are expensive to have (arguably). You need the lights, to start with, and then the plants (at the LFS plants go for 3-10$ - if you have an aquarists club or know someone in your area with planted tanks, I prefer getting plants that way). You may also want to invest in a CO2 injector (or build on yourself - at the LFS, they cost 20-40$ for a regular, basic one) to help the plants grow and keep algae at bay. You may want to look into buying a bottle of fertilizer and some oto cats to munch the algae, but those aren't necessary.
> Personally, I adore planted tanks. But they aren't for everyone. Do some research and then decide
> 
> ...


I am worried about moving water from the main tank. Won't it possibly still have parasites in it? I don't want them in my new tank?




Zoe said:


> For the most part, yes. You have to consider things like aggressivity, bio load, and stocking levels. For example, you'll want some mid-top dwellers (say, a school of neon tetras and a school of dwarf rainbows, and a dwarf gourami), and you'll want the mid-bottom dwellers (say, a pair or apistogramma, or a pair of kribs, or a pair of rams - only ONE pair, because if they spawn they'll get aggressive with anything that wants to come into their territory).
> For your bottom level, you could have a group of corydoras, or a bushy-nosed pleco.
> 
> 
> ...


Answers:
Did you properly cycle? I had two filters on my 30 gallon. A 20 and a 30.

Are the fish compatible with each other? I had two angels and two little tetra type fish.

Are the fish compatible with your water parameters? Yes.

Do you do regular water changes (how much, how often)? I did a real good water change once a month and then a little one about in the middle of the month.

Are the fish sick from the petstore? Very well could have been. My other angel that died brought it to the tank I think.

Do you have something in the tank that could be toxic (ie, was the tank re-sealed with the wrong kind of sealant? 

Not that I know of.

is the gravel intended for aquariums? are the plastic plants / rocks / wood intended for aquariums?) Yes.

Is your filter adequate? Yes. I replace them every month.

Is the water circulation adequate to keep the water oxygenated?Yes.

Is the tank in a high-traffic area, causing possible stress for your fish? Not too much traffic area. She was actually in a tank on the bathroom counter.
Is it bad to put them in a high traffic area?

Do you use a dechlorinator? yes. Liquid.

What is the temperature in your tank, and do you have a thermometer to properly monitor it? I check the temp everyday. With my angel I kept the temp at 78 degrees.

When you do you water changes, are you careful to make sure that the new water is the same temperature as the old water? I would try to get it as close as I could.

I know you've answered some of these questions already, but they are all things to consider.[/QUOTE]


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> Thanks for all the info! I do have a aquarium kit. It has long bulb in it. I hardly every turned it on though. I heard it makes bacteria grow faster and I have to clean more often. Is that right?


Not really. More light means more algae, but you should be cleaning your tank on a weekly basis regardless. All my tanks have lights on 8-10 hours per day and I don't have any algae problems on my tanks. And even if you do, just give them a good once over with a sponge (fish-only) every month and you're fine.



> I am worried about moving water from the main tank. Won't it possibly still have parasites in it? I don't want them in my new tank?


That's what the salt is for.



> Did you properly cycle? I had two filters on my 30 gallon. A 20 and a 30.


There's more to it than that... At the petstores, they may tell you just to set up the filter and let it run. But unless you introduce bacteria and/or a source of ammonia, they bacteria won't survive/exist, and the water is just like tap water out of the tap. It's not cycling. To cycle, you need to introduce ammonia and/or bacteria into your tank, so that when you put fish in, there is already bacteria in there to break down the ammonia produced by fish. We've said this before, but, *research the nitrogen cycle*. It is of the utmost importance.



> Do you do regular water changes (how much, how often)? I did a real good water change once a month and then a little one about in the middle of the month.


You'll want to start doing weekly water changes, about 30-40% of the water.



> Is your filter adequate? Yes. I replace them every month.


Each time you replace the filters, you will cause a mini-cycle, with a small ammonia spike and then nitrite spike - because the GOOD bacteria lives in your filter sponge and carbon. Do NOT replace your filters until they begin to fall apart (years!). Every now and then give them a quick rinse in a bucket of water to get off the big chunks, but you will rarely need to replace them.



> Is the tank in a high-traffic area, causing possible stress for your fish? Not too much traffic area. She was actually in a tank on the bathroom counter.
> Is it bad to put them in a high traffic area?


Yes and no... for the most part, fish are fine anywhere. My 90gal is in the living room, and the fish are fine. But if you have dozens of people walking by, noisy, every day, that's not good for already stressed fish.
However, the fact that the tank is in the bathroom concerns me. It may not be the case, but cleaners in the air can be harmful. I clean my bathroom, which is pretty small and not great ventilation, on a weekly basis, and afterwards you can smell the bleach and other cleaners for a while. I wouldn't want those fumes in my tank.

Zoe


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Not really. More light means more algae, but you should be cleaning your tank on a weekly basis regardless. All my tanks have lights on 8-10 hours per day and I don't have any algae problems on my tanks. And even if you do, just give them a good once over with a sponge (fish-only) every month and you're fine.
> 
> 
> That's what the salt is for.
> ...


The little filters? You mean the white filters that have little black rocks in them? They get really gross if I don't change them. Is that what you are talking about? If I don't replace them some of them do fall apart. In fast the last one I took out some of the little rocks where coming out and ended up in the water.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> The little filters? You mean the white filters that have little black rocks in them?


 Are the little rocks black? Then they are carbon, and should be removed during an ich cure with quick-cure or other dye because they take the meds out of the water. If the filter also has a sponge, its not fatal to replace the cartridge, but you don't have to do it as often as they tell you to, just rinse the crud off in a sink and put it back until the filter starts to fall apart.


> you will cause a mini-cycle


 Shes right, every time you reduce the bacteria in your colony, you may get more ammonia or nitrite in the water until they multiply again. Even a rinse in chlorinated tap water will leave more bacteria than replacing the cartridge. Rinsing is waste tank water is better, but not always enough (esp. if algae is growing). If you have two filters, then never replace both cartridges at the same time. 

I second the research the nitrogen cycle. You need to know this stuff. In a new tank, until the bacteria is established, I would change large amounts of water, but never any filter media. 

I had a 29 in my bathroom once, it had tiliapia with poop hanging out, it grossed people out, but the fish never suffered, we were really careful with cleaners and always used the vent. fan. The tank didn't have an air pump so fumes were less of an issue.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You asked earlier if the disease killed your fish. I would say yes. Once a fish's gills get damaged, they may look ok, but still die days later. But if you don't know the ammonia and nitrite level in your tank, it could have been poisoned and you wouldn't know it.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> The little filters? You mean the white filters that have little black rocks in them? They get really gross if I don't change them. Is that what you are talking about? If I don't replace them some of them do fall apart. In fast the last one I took out some of the little rocks where coming out and ended up in the water.


They do get gross and gunky, but as emc7 said, just rinse them in a bucket of fish water when you do a water change, or even under the faucet, when they get gunky. They shouldn't fall apart very often (I replace my sponges every 6 months, maybe, and carbon every 4 months). If you're using filter cartridges, you should switch to a separate sponge and carbon bag. More effective, cheaper that way, and if you need to replace something you can replace the carbon OR the sponge, and you won't cause a mini-cycle.


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

OK. So this new set of filters I just need to keep them in there for at least 4 months and then if they are falling apart buy new ones, but replace them both at different times? That makes sense! I have never done that! I remember some algae growing on the walls of my tank. I was told to keep some of it there that it is healthy. Is that ok? I keep thinking I want to keep a very clean looking tank.. is that right?


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Yeah, some algae growing on the side of your tank just means that your tank is supporting algae. It's good. You can keep scraping it off with an algae sponge. In my tanks, I do the front only, I don't worry about the sides and back. I'll regret it someday, I'm sure, but for the time being I like how the algae looks on it.

Don't worry too much about your filters, once they're set up. If they need to be replaced, you'll know


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## cwoods (Oct 30, 2006)

Thank you!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

its fine to scrape the algae off or leave it on. I just meant that if you scrape off algae, you may have to scrub it off your filter (when the flow goes down).


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