# Angelfish laying eggs. Not fertilized.



## PostShawn

Here's my tank stats.

29g
1 Silver Angelfish.
1 Marble Angelfish.
1 Flame Dwarf Gourami.
1 Green Molly.
5 Harlequin Rasboras.
3 Black Kuhli Loaches.
2 Panda Cory Cats.
2 Albino Cory Cats.
2 Small algae eater type fish. 

I plan to move all these to a 55g once I can get an outdoor pond made for the current 55g occupants. That will leave me with a 29g for if I do have a mated pair to play with really raising these fry. This is a while away though. 


So the on Saturday I noticed eggs on the filter tube of my Aquaclear filter. Luckily I have extra tanks and extra filters including another Aquaclear. So I basically did a water change on the 29g. I put about 10g of the water into an extra 14g I had laying around and then topped it off with other water. I swapped the filter tube for one not being used and put the one with eggs on it in the 14g. I had an extra small filter, an air stone, heater and light so I set them up in the 14g. I set the temp to about 82-84 F.

I had noticed my Angelfish being very protective of the eggs. Both of them towards all other occupants. They basically owned that whole side of the tank and wouldn't let any fish near it. So I assumed it was their eggs. Looking up angelfish eggs online and that's what it was. I don't think any other fish would have been a big threat except the gourami. When I had molly fry before I knew that they had the fry a gourami had a field day eating them all.

About a day or is later I noticed all the eggs turned white in color. Then a day later they started to get fuzzy mold growing on them. I read this is because they are not fertilized eggs. I read on the second-third day you should start seeing the eyes form if they are fertilized. As of the fourth day the whole batch of eggs had fuzzy mold growing on them. I assume they are unfertilized and I can tear down the 14g now?

My Questions:
1. Did I do good in moving them and setting up the other tank? 
2. Can a Marble Angelfish and a Silver striped Angelfish mate together? I heard all Angelfish are originally derived from the silver stripped variety in the wild. 
3. So this is the first time I've seen eggs. The fish are fairly young. Probably about a year old. Is it possible the female laid the eggs and the male just doesn't know how to do his part yet? They were both being protective of the eggs. I read the first time doesn't usually yield fry and it could take a couple times before they get it correct.
4. How long can I expect until the next batch?
5. Is it possible they are both female and they just lay eggs unfertilized if they don't have a male around?
6. Is that correct that fuzzy moldy eggs mean unfertilized? How long from egg laying to seeing fry movement does it usually take?


Thanks
Shawn


Here's a photo of the eggs while I moved them to the other tank. The angelfish in the background is the smaller marble of my two angels.









Here's the eggs in the 14g setup. Inside the tube is just an old air stone to weight the tube down and to position it so it doesn't roll over crushing the eggs. 











:fish::fish:


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## lohachata

setting up a hatching tank..
this is what has worked best for me....have a small (14gal)tank empty but ready to set up...have some methylene blue on hand.....get a spawning slate for the pair...when the angels spawn wait 24 hours...the fill the hatching tank with fresh water 82-84 degrees...DO NOT DECHLORINATE..remove the slate and hold it over the hatch tank and put 6 or 8 drops of the meth blue directly on the eggs..place the slate in the tank leaning against the side with the eggs facing down....place an airstone nearby running gently..
at 82 degrees angel eggs should hatch in about 48 hours...then there will be wigglers for the next 72-96 hours...then they will be freeswimming...
make sure you have plenty of very tiny foods available for them..gently do about 25% water change every day..


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## bmlbytes

PostShawn said:


> My Questions:
> 1. Did I do good in moving them and setting up the other tank?
> >>Sure, if that is how you want to raise them.
> 
> 2. Can a Marble Angelfish and a Silver striped Angelfish mate together? I heard all Angelfish are originally derived from the silver stripped variety in the wild.
> >>Yes they can
> 
> 3. So this is the first time I've seen eggs. The fish are fairly young. Probably about a year old. Is it possible the female laid the eggs and the male just doesn't know how to do his part yet? They were both being protective of the eggs. I read the first time doesn't usually yield fry and it could take a couple times before they get it correct.
> >>Sometimes it takes a while before fish learn to mate properly.
> 
> 4. How long can I expect until the next batch?
> >>About 2 weeks
> 
> 5. Is it possible they are both female and they just lay eggs unfertilized if they don't have a male around?
> >>Not likely. Angelfish pair up before mating. They wont lay eggs unless they have a mate
> 
> 6. Is that correct that fuzzy moldy eggs mean unfertilized? How long from egg laying to seeing fry movement does it usually take?
> >>Moldy eggs are usually unfertilized. It will help to add a little meth blue to the tank to prevent mold.


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## lohachata

basically...silver angels and marble angels and almost all other color variants of angels are the same species......

my angels will spawn every 7 days...most do...

angels may often spawn by the tie they are 7 months old...

i bought what was called a "mated pair" of angels one time....the eggs always went bad....but then they started spawning every 4 days...turned out to be 2 females...good thing i had extra males...

not mold on the eggs...it is fungus....


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## PostShawn

Thanks everyone. I've got some slabs of rock outside so I'll set up a piece for them. I'll also pick up some of that meth blue stuff. I've already got that first bites food and for molly fry I also had success with just grinding flakes and water into a paste. 

I really didn't plan on mating them and it wasn't the intention of getting the pair. I didn't even know if they were male or female. But when my fish do mate I like to go through the experience and learn more about them. So I'll probably keep trying with a few rounds and see how it goes. If all works I'll just raise them for a couple months and then turn them in to my LFS for some credit. 

Until I move my goldfish out of the 55 I really don't want to have more and more eggs every week or two though. Mostly because it's only a 29g and when the angels take up half the tank protecting eggs it doesn't leave much room for the others. Once in the 55g I think if the angels keep to a quarter of the tank the rest would be fine for the other fish. So after a couple rounds of hatchlings I'll probably either remove them and dispose of the eggs or just let nature take it's course. As soon as I removed this batch they noticed the eggs were gone and were protecting and nipping at the other fish anymore. 

Do they mate based on seasons? Will they do it for a few months and then stop until next year? Or will they just keep at it until they are too old? 


This is fun. I'm lucky I have everything for another tank already on hand. I guess that's what happens when you keep upgrading tanks. I love when any of my pets mate and breed. In the past I've had success with white mice (who couldn't be successful), red-eared slider turtles (two batches and non were fertilized or I didn't get to them in time and they walked on the eggs), had lizards (anoles) mating but never breeding, and of course fish (mollies and guppies). After I breed a couple batches of these angels successfully if anyone in Los Angeles wants eggs you can swing by and pick them up if they transport ok.

Thanks!


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## Fishpunk

@lohachata Female-female bonding in angelfish is not unheard-of.


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## PostShawn

So when the fish laid these eggs they did so on the filter tube. 90% was laid on one section and another bit laid on another section. I removed the main section but left the others. Then this past weekend my bro-in-law pointed out a fry at the bottom of the tank in some plants I have in there. I tried to retrieve it but lost it. I don't know if it's still hiding or if another fish found it for dinner or what. But it was a sign of hope. Also wondering what I did wrong with the batch I moved. I guess I moved them and didn't use the meth-blue and they grew fungus and that was it. 

So yesterday I still hadn't seen the one fry we saw before. But we did notice some more eggs on a couple large petal leafs of a fake plant. So I figured I have a breading box lying around. I put that in the tank and snipped off the leaf with the most eggs. I put it into the breeder box with floats in the tank with the rest of the fish. This way if the water conditions were right before and I moved them to a fresh tank that might have done something. I moved them before with mostly water from the original tank but I know even a small water change can make the water different and it's probably only even more different for eggs developing and such. These eggs were also more clear when we first caught them. So maybe I caught them earlier on. My bro-in-law was saying the male angel fish was "fanning" the eggs and was concerned about moving them. But I think the fanning was probably just protecting. Now they are in the breeder box where other fish can't get to them. I have a dwarf gourami in the tank too and it would probably love to eat the eggs and more so any fry. So I think the breeder box is the safest place. I just hope the male fertilized them correctly. 

So I'm going to re-setup the 14g tank this weekend with another water change water from the original tank. I'll let it run for a little while first. And then if I do have fry in the breeder box I'm sure they'll be fine in there for a little while and when it looks like they are making it and doing well and maybe after the first noticeable growth spurt then I'll move them to the new fry tank.

Wish me luck. And if anyone in Los Angeles wants free angelfish whenever they do start doing this right just let me know. Once they are grown a little bit I'll let some go to fish people here before bringing them into the LFS for credit.


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## lohachata

it is not that the conditions in the main tank are right.....both parents will fan the eggs to keep clean oxygenated water flowing over the eggs../they will also mouth the eggs looking like they are eating them..they are actually cleaning them off....next time have a hatching tank ready for them...but keep it empty.....after they spawn fill the tank..."DO NOT DECHLORINATE"......
temp...82F.....
bare tank...only heater...sponge filter and an airstone.. transfer the eggs to the hatchout tank...add meth blue....


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## PostShawn

Do I transfer the parent fish too? Last time I didn't use a sponge filter but had an air stone. I do have a hatching tank ready right now, just not filled. Should I fill that and use it now or just wait and see with this batch? The eggs would have been in the breeder box for 2 days by tomorrow evening when I can get around to setting up the hatching tank. How early should I catch the eggs to move them or is anytime ok? 

Leaving them in the current tank it has a filter but if they are in the breeder box I don't have to worry about the filter sucking them up. The is an air stone and water flow is pretty good even into the breeder box. Since they are moved in there already I'll see how it goes. But now I know the timing and if I can have the other tank setup already and running waiting for them I will.


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## Ladayen

Your brother in law was right  Meth Blue keeps the water clean and replaces the job the parents normally do.

On an unrelated note, what exactly do you mean by small algae eater type fish? Chinese Algae Eaters? (CAE) These guys grow big, around 1' long and mean. They also only eat algae for a couple months while young and after that would much prefer the slime coating from other fish. Your angels and the gourami would be perfect with their body shape. With the slime coating gone fish have little protection against bacteria and parasites and will probably die.


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## lohachata

@fishpunk....kinda scratchin my head here...the incident with the 2 females i mentioned happened when you were about 10 years old and a little more than 500,000 angelfish ago...that was just my first experience with it...lol...i have even had a couple of angel trios...i had 1 male and 2 females that would spawn every week on the same piece of slate...

shawn......wait until the next spawn...in the mean time prepare for it...you will need the bare tank..heater...sponge filter (fine pore sponge) and an airstone and meth blue......do not fill the tank...when they lay the eggs again let the parents take care of them for the first 24 hours....then..............
fill the hatchout tank... "DO NOT DECHLORINATE".....temp at 82F......install heater , spongefilter and airstone...pull slate with eggs....put several drops of meth blue directly on the eggs before putting them in the water....let set for about 15 seconds....then place the slate in the tanks and add some meth blue to the water....
put the airstone near the slate to help circulation...eggs should hatch in about 24 hours...
once the eggs have hatched and you see wigglers gently do a 50% water change...next day do another...50% every day until the meth blue is gone...

oh........and make sure you have some high quality fry foods on hand for them...once you see them free swimming (3-4 days) you can start feeding...they need to be fed 4-5 times a day....


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## PostShawn

Not the chinese algae eaters. I think they are ottos. I was told they would stay under 1.5". They look like this:









_lohachata_,
Thanks for the detailed instructions. I will do that for the next batch. I went to petco and petsmart because I didn't have time to go to my LFS in the past couple days. Neither had Meth-Blue. I got something else that said it was for fungus on fish and eggs. and used it on this batch. I picked up the leaf with the eggs, poured a bit on there and put it back. Then put a small dose in the tank figuring one dose won't hurt he the other fish. But I forgot I had the regular filter running and it has carbon it in so it probably removed the meds. But I'll get Meth-Blue for the next round. I will go to my LFS tomorrow and get the Blue. 


EDIT:
More questions:
1 - On this hatching/fry tank do I need to have a light on it? I was thinking of putting it below my 29g but my 14g plus the hood is too high. I might pickup a 10g since I think it's the same as the 14g but shorter. 
2- Also if I have a batch of fry going at some point and more eggs come can I put the fry and eggs in the same tank? Just thinking, I might need a whole room or something if I want to keep them going. Otherwise I will have to just let the eggs take it's course in the 29g if fry are in the hatcing/fry tank at the time. Once I do some garage work in a month I might be able to setup tanks in there too. I'll check with my LFS tomorrow and see if they will take fry and how old they need to be. 

Thanks!


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## lohachata

i wouldn't try to mix spawns...you would wind up killing the new spawn...
a light is not critical..the lack of light will help keep fungus down also...
once the fry are about 2-3 weeks old you will need to transfer to a bigger tank...if you do it right a 50 breeder or a 55 will work...55's are cheaper and easier to find...especially on craigslist...just saw one for $25.00...
do not net the fry..this could damage their fins...carefully remove most of the water from the hatching tank..then lower the entire tank into the 55 allowing it to gently fill...then tilt it like you are dumping it out and let the fry swim out into the 55..
and just as with the hatching tank...temp..82....sponge filters...feed 3-5 times a day... 40%-50% water changes at least twice a week..3 times is better...for more rapid growth 30-40% water change every day....
when they reach body size of a nickel or so they are ready to sell..about 6-8 weeks..

check the lfs first to see what he sells the same color and size angels for...$2.99 each...you should get $1.00 each...if he takes the whole spawn $.75 cents each..
tell him you want cash..not store credit...his wholesaler doesn't take store credit..
never let the shop owners screw ya...you will definitely need a few more tanks..10's and 55's or 75's will work...you could even put an ad in the newspaper to sell them..that's what i used to do...would do 500-1000 bucks on a weekend..

oh...if you really get into it you can build your own growout tanks...120 gallons...simple and easy to do...


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## PostShawn

Wow. Well I have a 55g right now with my goldfish. I was planning on moving the tropicals in there after the goldfish get a pond. But I didn't want to have multiple 55gs around just for breeding. My house isn't big enough for that. We'll see I guess how my survival rate of them go and if I need a big tank or not. 

I went and bought a 5g. Had one before and have all the stuff for it (hood, light, etc already). So I figured that will be my hatching tank. I will setup a 20g as a grow-out tank and get rid of them as soon as they are ready (I guess 6-8 weeks). I'm doing a lot of garage work in the next couple months and will have some shelving all setup and such. So I might put my breeding going on in there. I will give it a shot for a couple rounds and see how it goes. I really don't need too many of them. I'd probably pull every other batch of eggs out for hatching and leave the others for natures course most likely as dinner to other occupants. I'm just not equipped for a full time breeding operation at this time. 

Oh and how did you do "would do 500-1000 bucks on a weekend.."? Damn that's basically a business right here. Don't LFS's already have a breeder they probably deal with and have good records with? Or do they says screw it and buy from anyone selling at the cheapest price? I'm not into trying to sell a 100 fish on a weekend to craigslisters coming to pick up 1 or 2 at a time. 

Thanks for all the info.


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