# Last hope for my black moor



## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

Hello community,

I have asked before about the health of my Black Moor, Dennis. However, now I'm feeling overwhelmed by his health issues. Reminder of his background: I saved him from someone in my dorm who was keeping him in about 2 inches of black water. He lived in my dorm room in a bowl for a year before I moved him to a 5 gallon filtered tank. Ever since I have had him in this larger environment his health seems to continue to decline. He has/had popeye that I treated for a few weeks and it didn't improve at all. I change his water once week because of the chemicals I tend to need to add. If I don't add melafix for even a week his fins start to clamp and rot. He is no longer black AT ALL. his color changed this summer over the course of about 4 weeks and he is now entirely orange. The popeye, fin rot, and color change makes me concerned that he doesn't have much time left. 

Any help? What can I DO!?

Andrea


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

he needs a bigger tank and not to be doing 100% water changes the tank needs to be established. if you cannot give him a bigger tank it shouldn't be hard to find him a good home IMO any goldfish should live in a pond.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

the color change may not be a symptom. many goldfish lose pigment as they grow and end up all orange. Pop-eye and fin-rot are both disease that can have multiple causes and occur more frequently when water quality is poor. Consider more frequent water changes, a bigger filter, or a bigger container (doesn't have to be a tank, are you using all your bathtubs?). Are you restricted by dorm rules?


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

I am restricted by dorm rules, and by dorm space. My room is very small and I fot everything I own in there. I can do more frequent changes, or get a bigger filter, however. 

If I were to put him in a pond, would he really survive? It gets cold here (seattle) in the winter....I love this fish, and wouldn't want to put him in harms way!

Thanks for the advice


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

AndrealvsDennis said:


> I am restricted by dorm rules, and by dorm space. My room is very small and I fot everything I own in there. I can do more frequent changes, or get a bigger filter, however.
> 
> If I were to put him in a pond, would he really survive? It gets cold here (seattle) in the winter....I love this fish, and wouldn't want to put him in harms way!
> 
> Thanks for the advice


def dont release him into a natural pond. you can find someone who has a large pond in their yard most people will bring their koi/goldfish in for the winter as do i and some will heat their pond through the winter.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

The change in color from black to orange is normal and quite common. So no worries there.

Popeye and fin rot can be caused by several things, but the most common causes for both are poor water quality and/or bacterial infections. This brings up some questions about how you're treating it

1. When you say you have to do water changes because of all the chemicals you're adding to treat the fish, what all chemicals are you adding to the tank?
2. When you're doing water changes, are you changing 100% of the water each week or less? And are you treating the water with something like Prime to dechlorinate?
3. Have you tried any antibiotic treatments for the fish or medicated food that contains antibiotics? Melafix and Pimafix do not contain antibiotics so will not help if an infection has taken hold.
4. Do you have a test kit and do you know if the tank is cycled?
5. If you do have a test kit, what are the parameters of your aquarium water?
ammonia ?
nitrite ?
nitrate? 
pH ?
6. Is the fish still eating well?
7. Can you post a picture of the fish?


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

1. I add melafix and mayacin. It says to do a water change after a week of treatment.

2. I do a 100% water change some of the time and a 50% water change other times depending on whether or not I medicated that week. I sometimes add dechloronating stuff if I did not give the water proper time to sit out and have the chlorine evaporate. I set out five gallons of water 24 hours before I clean the tank.

3. If Mayacin does not have antibiotics, then no I have not tried antibiotics. What is the best product?

4. I don't have a test kit because they seem so varied in complexity and I don't know what exactly I need or what is accurate and what is not. I have seen people cycle tanks but from what I understand they have another tank running with no creatures in it, so I figured it's kind of like what I do by setting water out to have the chlorine evaporate, but I know I'm very inexperienced and uneducated about it all. Just a college student that got landed with a fish that I now care a lot about and want to take care of.

6. The fish is still always very hungry. Very active at night and sometimes sits on the bottom in the morning. I can get a picture on here soon...

Thanks for your help. Any advice on products to buy for antibiotics or test kits would be great.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

maracyn is an antibiotic, maracyn II is "the other one". One does gram positive bacteria, the other gram negative. In combo, they kill a lot of disease (but not fungus, parasites, or viruses). If Maracyn I doesn't work, try Maracyn II. Or Maracyn+. Melafix and pimafix are good first-aid, but they aren't strong enough for a seriously ill fish. 

I would suggest that you always use a water conditioner that deals with "chloramine". If you only have chlorine, then just letting water sit is good enough, but water systems are allowed to add chloramine or ammonia without warning you. Something like Prime or Amquel+ that "detoxifies" ammonia will also help with ammonia from other sources (like waste and uneaten food). In a little tank, a bottle of Prime will last a long time (you may need to get an eyedropper/pipette). A little chlorine won't kill fish, but it adds an additional stress, so make sure you treat the water.

What and how much are you feeding? Poor quality food causes things like vitamin deficiency, but too much food fouls the water.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

For a test kit, I'd suggest the API Freshwater master test kit. It is easy to use and test for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It costs around $30 at my local petco, but you can get them online for less. 

As far as cycling a tank, setting water out isn't accomplishing what a cycled filter does. A cycled tank has bacteria living in the filter media that converts ammonia (very toxic) to nitrite (also very toxic) then nitrite to nitrate (toxic at high levels, but controlled by water changes). The behavior you describe and health problems you are having could very well be that your tank isn't cycled and the fish is living in toxic water. If you can't afford to purchase a test kit (but I highly recommend you do if you want to keep this fish long term), you can take a tank water sample to many fish stores and they will do free tests. Make sure they test pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate and give you the number values of these tests! Don't accept answers like "it's ok, it's normal" etc. 

Setting water out for 24 hours is a good practice, however, as emc7 said, you need to add a conditioner like Prime because your water source may contain chloramine. Chloramines don't evaporate and will make your fish sick and prevent your filter from cycling by killing off the essential bacteria. Prime or Amquel also help lower the available ammonia in the water if it is present.

Regarding treating the fin rot and popeye problem, I suggest you stop using melafix and the other stuff and try Maracyn Plus.
http://www.petmountain.com/product/...del-maracyn-plus-antibacteria-medication.html
If the cause of the fin-rot and popeye is bacterial, then the bacteria responsible is most often a gram-negative, anaerobic bacteria type and Maracyn Plus contains the correct kind of antibiotics. If you can't find Maracyn plus, you can try either a medicated food or additive that contains the antibiotic Kanamycin. Medi Gold is a good medicated pellet food for goldfish that contains kanamycin:
http://www.goldfishconnection.com/shop/details.php?productId=8&catId=1
Whichever route you choose, make sure you follow the instructions. Kanamycin can be hard on the kidneys so you don't want to overdose the feeding or feed it past the recommended number of days.

Another thing you can do is add some aquarium salt to the tank water to help with the fin rot healing. Salt will also help keep your fish alive if you have the presence of nitrite in your water (which we don't know yet). You can do 1 tsp per gallon or 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. Just make sure the salt is either aquarium salt or a type of salt that contains no caking agents or yellow prussiate of soda. When you do a water change, make sure you replace however much salt you removed. For example, if you change 2.5 gallons, add back 2.5 teaspoons until the fin rot clears up.

Until you know your water parameters it is hard to recommend a water change schedule. I would follow whatever is recommended by the Maracyn Plus (if you decide to go that route). Once I know what is going on with the water, I can suggest something better.

It would be good to know what you're feeding the fish and how much. Nutritional deficiency can also cause problems like fin rot and popeye. Since you're in a dorm and probably don't have much storage or ability to make food, I suggest hikari lionhead pellet food.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

file:///Users/andreabrannman/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Modified/2010/Sep%201,%202010/DSC_0404.JPG

file:///Users/andreabrannman/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2010/Sep%201,%202010/DSC_0405.JPG

file:///Users/andreabrannman/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Originals/2010/Sep%201,%202010/DSC_0408.JPG

Did these pictures work? I posted one of his fin rot, one of his eyes from the top to see the popeye, and the overall color change.


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

the pictures didn't work. upload them to photobucket and then under neath the picture on photo bucket it will have a bunch of options one of the options is image code copy and paste that here. otherwise you can use the direct link and post the webpage here. or if you go down to the reply box on the bottom of the page right below that it will say go advanced. click go advanced then if you scroll down you should see a box that says manage attachments click that and a window will open(make sure pop-up blocker is off) then in the small window that opens you can browse files on your computer just click browse button then find the image file on your computer and do that for the couple pictures then under that it will say upload click that box and wait till its done uploading attachments. once that happens you can click the button that says close this window. then on the reply page you should see it shows your attachments right by the manage attachments button then just click reply.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

I hope these worked. I tried the attachment option. Thanks for your help.


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

yep it worked and lol its hard to believe that is a black moer because he is really gold/yellow. he def has something going on with his fins but what concerns me the most is his overall size he is very very skinny and not looking good. his eyes do look a bit larger than normal and his fins look bad hes got a lot of red streaks in them. you need to get your water tested he could be sick all do to stress and there is only so much that medication can do for a fish that is under constant stress from poor water quality. If the fish is completely stressed it wont be able to help the medicine fight off the diseases. try some stronger medications. what size filter do you have on your tank if im not mistaken that looks like a tetra in tank filter for reptiles. those tend not to push a lot of water especially since gold fish need very very heavy filtration. i cant stress enough how much you need to work on getting this guy a larger home. he may have his growth already stunted from the bowl he was in before you and in that case he is basically a ticking time bomb while his health slowly declines. sometimes lfs' will take in sick fish and nurse them back to health if you pay for the medication and such thats what we do for people at work when they dont want to treat an entire tank or cant because of fish that cant handle the meds and they dont have a hospital tank.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

He certainly doesn't look well. Definitely has some fin rot going on. He also looks skinny. What are you feeding him and how much? I can't tell if he has popeye or if it is eye rings. Goldfish sometimes get eye rings, or swelling around their eyes. It is a build up of fluid, most likely due to poorly functioning organs, such as their kidneys.

Were you able to test it's water?

What filtration are you using and do you have any extra aeration? An air stone and pump?


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

Thanks for your responses. I feed him once a day, about as much as he can eat in 3 minutes. That's what worked when he was small, but now he is much larger I suppose it's time to feed him twice a day? It's just average goldfish pellets. I don't use flakes. Sometimes I give him a pea, because he likes them....but not too often because I hear they are like laxatives for fish. It didn't occur to me that he was skinny, I didn't know what a skinny fish looked like. API freshwater master kit...if that is the going recommendation I will go get one this weekend. Yes, the popeye I was describing is more like fluid around his eyes. 

My filter is the standard filter that came with the tetra tank. Another recommendation? Will any other filter still fit in this tank? It seems the tetra filter is made to fit right in there so I would be concerned that another would not work....

You guys are great. I'm so clueless and this forum site is an amazing resource.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

Also, I've been telling friends that the people on fishforums.com know more about fish than doctors do about people. Seriously, you do. Also, doctors don't know much more than an average person these days with the internet, but still. Your knowledge amazes me.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm really happy to hear you're going to pick up a test kit. I think it is really important to have an accurate profile of the water in order to help diagnose fish problems.

Some other things I think you should consider picking up are:

aquarium salt - this will help with the fin rot and/or if you have nitrites in your water. I suggest adding 1 teaspoon per gallon tank water. The best way to add it is fill a small container with used tank water, mix in the salt until dissolved, then add it back into the tank in a high flow area, such as near the filter output. When you do a water change, make sure you add back the salt that you removed. So if you remove 2 gallons of water, add back 2 teaspoons of salt.

Maracyn Plus or Maracyn Two, if you can't find Maracyn Plus - both treat popeye and fin rot.

Small air pump, air stone and air tubing - treating a tank with medication, salt, etc can deoxygenate water, so if you can swing it, I'd like to see additional aeration in your tank.

Measuring spoons if you don't already have some.

Hikari Lionhead pellet food - high quality, nutritious goldfish food.

I'm still not convinced he has pop eye. As I said it could be swelling due to poorly functioning organs. It could also be that he is a stunted fish. One way to tell that a goldfish is stunted is that their eyes are disproportionately large to their body, and his appear to be. It is just hard to tell with a telescope eye goldfish since their eyes already stick out. I still think you should medicate with antibiotics, if for no other reason to deal with the fin rot.

I think twice a day feeding is in order, just make sure you feed him one pellet at a time so there aren't a bunch of pellets sinking to the bottom rotting. Once we know if the tank is cycled, we can address how much to increase his food. Speaking of food, how does his poo look? Seems like a strange question, but is his poo normal - longish and food colored? Or is it long, white and stringy? A skinny fish could also have internal parasites.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

I already use salt, but I will make sure to follow your new directions as I have previously just been adding salt straight to the tank. I also already have Maracyn Plus, you said that is an antibiotic? So I can start using that instead of the melafix.

Unfortunately it's not very realistic to feed him one pellet at a time because I have to pre-soak his food. He used to spend a great deal of his time floating upside down and I read on the internet to feed him peas. I fed him peas for some time before someone on this website told me to STOP and only feed him a pea once in awhile. So then I was told to soak his food to avoid him swallowing too much air. So when I feed him it all sinks to the bottom right away. He doesn't have rocks, but marbles, so some of the food slips between the cracks and he can't get to it. I switched him from rocks to marbles after he almost choked on one and I had to physically grab it out of his little fishy mouth. 

Sometimes his poop is normal and other times it is white and stringy and floats at the surface. I'm not sure what that means but you will probably have a good idea!


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

his skinnyness could be do to an internal parasite. at first the fish consumes more food than they do but slowly as they grow and multiply the fish cant keep up and eventually starts getting skinnier and skinnier you may want to concider some internal parasite medication. It would be best to wait for a second opinion on this also before dumping more meds into the tank. i know at work tho when we cant find one medicine to treat a fish we will take a bunch of different meds for different things and treat with all at once with lowered doses of each so it doesn't stress them out to much and it does seem to work. i have seen this a lot with goldfish it seems people bring them in and they have like every single disease possible. typically what happens is the water is at unsafe levels it stresses the fish so the fish gets sick. The fish is to stressed to fight off the infection so it picks up another and another and another. this lady brought one in one time the goldfish had 3 seperate ulcers, it was covered in ich and velvet, it had clowded eyes, and fin rot it could hardly move so i had her euthenize it on the spot.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Could you post some new pictures of him? I'd like to see his fins. Did they improve after the salt/antibiotic treatment?

I think the last time you posted about the eyes we just weren't sure if it was popeye, eye rings or just a skinny telescope fish. If he's grown that's definitely a good sign that he was just skinny and needed to fatten up.

Swim bladder issues are pretty common with fancy goldfish. It can be due to diet, constipation, piping (sucking air at the surface) or just deformity. Some people have found by changing their diet, they improve the problem. Some others have reported that keeping nitrate levels in the tank below 20ppm has helped. Unfortunately, some fancy goldfish just become permanent gimps and will always have issues with being floaty, sinking, side-layers, upside-downers, etc.

What are you currently feeding him?


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

oops I realize I just meant to post this reply on your other thread lol. Ignore me!


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## Kissing keeper (Oct 3, 2010)

I have a bunch of fish, and i feed mine twice a day. I even feed my baby swords twice too.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Uhm, okay.

Revo, don't use lowered doses of meds. It might seem a good idea, but the result is only a buildup of drug resistance in the disease causing organisms.


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