# Tetras and water PH



## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

How hardy are the Neon Tetras and Black Tetras? I noticed when looking up information about them that they prefer water's ph to b around 5.0-7.0. Tonight my g/f did a ph test and she said it looked to be between 7.5 and 7.8. Will the tetras be fine with that or how would I go about getting the ph down closer to neutral?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

It is very difficult to lower the PH and keep it steady. It is much easier to choose a fish that does well in your water.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

Well one of the tetras died this morning, so it appears we're gonna have to get a PH kit or match the fish to the PH.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I doubt that your PH actually killed the tetra. Tell us more about your tank. Size, how long has it been running, water parameters, temp. etc.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Don't worry too much about your pH; you can lower it with large water changes with distilled water, but it's not worth the trouble usually. The fish will adjust soon enough and be fine. A pH test kit is still a good idea, though. The petshop's water is the same as yours, right?


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## DUSTIN323 (Sep 21, 2005)

If you don't wanna try to hard and not use chemicals because you'll keep on having to use them either put peat in the filter or get a nice chunk of driftwood.


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## Chazwick (Aug 24, 2005)

pH isn't really that important, unless it's off the chart or around 6.0... it's more for people to look up on if they are interested in breeding their fish.

Do not - and i repeat, DO NOT, use chemical pH changing solution like "pH Down" or "pH Up", etc... they're only temporary and when the pH changes back to it's original state your fish will get stressed from the dramatic change and that CAN kill them.

Leave the pH at the moment, unless theres a dramatic change then theres something wrong, otherwise it's perfectly normal and fine...
What are your other water temperments?
Tank size?
Other occupants in the tank?

These are what are important and we need to know them in order to help you.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

exactly, don't futz with the pH, our pH is usually around 7.5 also and our neons do fine. How long has the tank been setup? It maybe more of an ammonia problem or nitrite problem... get your water tested by the lfs or get a test kit for these two compounds, they are much more important to fish survival than any other common aquarium parameter.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

Paul do you guys at Petsmart test the water for free?


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

Chazwick said:


> pH isn't really that important, unless it's off the chart or around 6.0...


pH 6 is actually ideal for tetras. pH 5 is even better for breeding. Cardinals actually thrive better at pH 3-5. So don't listen to the rumors about all fish liking a pH of 7. PH 7 actually has too many hydrogen atoms dissolved in the water for some softwater fish to cope with for long periods. They usually only live for a quarter of their expected life spans. Even though you may take your fish home and think it's happily swimming around eating flake for the next few months, fish can't talk, and it's very difficult to tell if they are suffering. Even fish that breed in captivity with their brilliant spawning hughs don't neccesserily feel stress free from the excessive bioload and extreme pH's which they aren't used to in the wild. Even though you may think pH 7-8 isn't much of a gap, pH 8 is actually about 100 times greater than pH 7.
LfS's usually keep their systems at pH 7 purelly for tempory storage of livestock for convenience, and not for the long term health of the animal.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

So from the sounds of it my water's PH might just be too high for the tetras. My PH is at 7.5-7.8ish. I've read the highest they like is 7. So maybe that is the cause of the deaths.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Good post CM.....


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

I do try my best. 
(sometimes)


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I agree that keeping fish in less than ideal pH shortens lifespans, however, in my experience, I've kept neons in 7.0-7.5 water for several years now, most fish can adapt, some won't but most will. I think the cause of his neon's death is not because of pH here, he hasn't said anything about ammonia, nitrite (the 2 most important water parameters) and yes we do give water tests at petsmart, but I would get it tested by me or eric and possibly haily because we are the only two that test water the right way and actually follow the directions (the others don't and they get off colors and wrong results). Other questions that I would most likely ask you at petsmart to overview the history of the tank is:
How long has it been setup
I know you have tetras in there already, anything else?
Any foreign rocks/shells/decorations (besides aquarium safe ones) in it?
What is the temperature at?


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

Temperature between 74-78, only aquarium safe decor in the tank. We have a pair of Mollies in there.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Mollies and tetras do not belong in the same tank..... Water requirements are drastically different...


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2005)

how did u aclimate the tetras?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

yeah a classic mistake... I thought you were going to get more tetras and maybe a bottom feeder such as cories or an apple snail?


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## DUSTIN323 (Sep 21, 2005)

What do you guys think about lemon tetras I read their watar parameters can vary alot more than most tetras. Like 5.5-8 ph and 3dh-25dh. I was actually thinking of getting some tetras. But I have guppies so I don't wanna bring the ph & hardness down too much it's at about 7ph right now from what I read that'll be fine for lemon tetras?


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

Fishfirst said:


> I think the cause of his neon's death is not because of pH here, he hasn't said anything about ammonia, nitrite (the 2 most important water parameters)


That's got nothing to do with the original question, and Stealth has posted his water parameters in another thread.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

I had the water tested again today. The only thing she said was we had hard water in the 10 gallon tank. And there was a moderate or somewhat ok amount of ammonia but she just suggested to change some water, which I knew was already due to do today.

Edit: Is there any real negative affect on the fish with hard water or should they be fine?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

stealth said:


> Is there any real negative affect on the fish with hard water or should they be fine?


Two schools of thought......
1. Attempt to keep fish in an enviroment that matches natural habatat.
2. Throw the poor fish in whatever water you have and rationalize by saying " they will adapt". 

You choose.....
BTW, If you want me to, I can tell you how I feel about it. LOL.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

Ok well Ron you told me 1 obvious thing and 1 thing that some people say/think, so you didn't really answer my question. Plus if i knew what each fish's natural habitat was like I wouldn't put them in a non natural situation. I am trying to get fish or get my tank to match either way thats why I asked what negative if any effect does hard water have.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Stealth, hard water normally has a high PH. You know about that... So, if you want to try to keep fish that will do best in your water, get fish that originate in central america or the East African lakes. A lot of fish from those areas are too large for your tanks but not all. I would recommend that you stay away from tetras and anything else from south america. Livebearers are fine in your water. There are also cichlid possibilities from Lake Tanganyika. You are doing a good job of searching for answers. Keep it up and good luck.


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## DUSTIN323 (Sep 21, 2005)

Also if you want tetras & other South American fish then try putting some peat in the filter. I know that its best fish that fit you tap water, but that's not always what everyone wants. Peat is also natural and will keep the tank stabilized unlike ph down.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

Thank you Ron and Dustin. I may try the peat in the filter because we really like the sight of a school of tetras swimming around the tank and I have yet to see anything that compares and that will be compatible with our tank. Any suggestions?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Stealth, you might try doing some "net" searches for PH, hardness, water chemestry, etc. It is a complicated subject. but it is very, very difficult to lower the PH of hard water and keep it stable. Serious hobbyist usually purchase a reverse osmosis unit. Another possibility, with a small tank, is to purchase distilled water and mix with your tap water at water change time. Peat moss, PH Down and other things intended to lower PH won't work if you have hard water. It may lower it for a few hours, but it will bounce back. This see-saw action of your PH is much more stressful to your fish than just leaving a high PH. Bottom line is... water hardness and water PH are two different things but are interelated. You must soften your water first, then ( and only then ), you can lower the PH.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

Forget about telling us what you would like to keep. this is the only thing you need to know at the moment. Only keep fish that require the same water parameters together. The easiest way to dot his is to test your tap water pH and buy fish for what ever the reading is. End of story.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

Ron what about using strictly distilled water would that be ok? I can get distilled water for free from school. I have done some searchin on the net about all the above topics, I did understand some but some I didn't, but then again I wasn't fully sure about compatability with certain fish too. Thanks Ron you have been a great help. Cichlid man you going from being helpful to a S.A. everyother comment it seems like in my threads. I stated I would like tetras because it was relevant and I would like to see if I can get the water so that they like it. And you could have at least suggested some other fish that would compare to the Tetras that would match my parameters. You didn't give any examples to justify your answer what so ever. Is it just that you have too much time on your hands that you have to make a comment in every thread no matter if its helpful or not or is this just how the site is ran? I thought coming into this it was supposed to be a informative helpful site and you have 50% of the time but the other half you haven't and I don't see how thats conducive to get new members and keep them. I mean come on your a mod. you think you'd have a little more courtesy and informative answers that what you just gave me. Again THANK YOU Ron V and Dustin you guys have given me some options to try.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

If you have access to distilled water, then you are on to something.... You don't want to use distilled water alone. Distilled water has everything taken out. You need some stuff that's in tap water. So get your test kits out and try mixing some tap water with some distilled untill you get the hardness/ PH that you want. Now that will work...

Don't be too tough on cichlidman. He's a little frustrated. He will get over it. He's been here a long time and lots of new hobbysts just don't want to hear the truth, it seems. It does get old sometimes. Hang in there.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

LOL well I know it gets old I'm on another forum for my Stealth and I know how noobs can be but he just comes off like a grouch and doesn't want to help or offer up any info except give and get on with it. I mean the more he tells me the more I will know and the more I can help out a noob that comes along and asks the same question instead of having a senior member do it when they could be answering more questions. But thanks for the info bout all of this, I know I came off as a prick or w/e to CM but I was just getting sick of nonsense answers to serious questions. I mean I go online and do my research and w/e I don't know or can't figure out I ask on here hoping to get a knowledgable helpful answer. Which for the most part I get.

By the way if the ph or hardness was such an issue don't you think the other Tetras would die too? They are doing excellent from what I see. If we have some pass away this week then obviously there's an issue with water compatiblity but so far I'm thinking they were just unhealthy because the Cardinal was left alone for so long at the LFS and other fish were dead when I went back to that LFS that were in the same aquarium that it had been in.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

stealth said:


> By the way if the ph or hardness was such an issue don't you think the other Tetras would die too? They are doing excellent from what I see.


 Now steath, you were doing fine before that... LOL. Just kidding, but that is the kind of thing that gets frustrating. Like I said above, in this thread, there are two schools of thought............. I personally believe that fish may not be doing as well as it may appear. After all they can't tell you they feel bad, can they? They just hang in there as long as they can and then die at about half their normal life span.


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

LOL ok good point Ron. Maybe I'll just transfer some guppies to the 10 gallon which my g/f has at her house and the tetras to my other tank which doesnt have the hard water issue.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

How did you solve the "hard water" problem in your other tank?


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

I have it at my house the hard water tank is the 10 gallon which is at my g/f's house.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2005)

you could still have the same tap water that your girlfriend has. do you both get your water from the same company?


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## stealth (Dec 11, 2005)

No we don't have the same water she lives in a different city/village than me.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2005)

I have an extremely high tap water ph and a medium hardness. I've not only kept tetras but also bred them. When I first started I used some PH Down... Well mistake you can only add a little bit so the fish don't get shocked. It took a while to get it a noticeable amount down and then when it got there shortly it went back up. Then I went to Petland and got me a piece of Maylaysian driftwood I only soaked this for overnight and it showed a lowered ph and a little softer. Then I bought me some peat and put it in a little mesh bag then put it in the filter. This lowered the ph signifacantly (now this does work better with soft water). My tetras have breed. Now of course it worked the best because my water was medium leaning more on the softer side. Now how can you get the most out of peat? Well you need to have softer water you could use distilled or reverse osmosis water of course mixing it with tap or use deionized water. You can also use a water softner pillow I've seen powder and a pad that you put in the filter. It can be a little hard but don't give up. I've learnt an incredible amount just in a few months. Of course it is better to keep a stable ph than a non-stable ph trying to get it lower or vise-verca. But if you can get it the way you want it and keep it that way and are comfortable providing this then you'll be fine. Also do a search on google or dogpile and you'll find detailed pages on this matter. Don't get discouraged.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

stealth said:


> Cichlid man you going from being helpful to a S.A. everyother comment it seems like in my threads. I stated I would like tetras because it was relevant and I would like to see if I can get the water so that they like it. And you could have at least suggested some other fish that would compare to the Tetras that would match my parameters. You didn't give any examples to justify your answer what so ever. Is it just that you have too much time on your hands that you have to make a comment in every thread no matter if its helpful or not or is this just how the site is ran? I thought coming into this it was supposed to be a informative helpful site and you have 50% of the time but the other half you haven't and I don't see how thats conducive to get new members and keep them. I mean come on your a mod. you think you'd have a little more courtesy and informative answers that what you just gave me.


Yeah, sorry if I came over a little harsh, but people around here know that I usually like to cut to the chase. I could of written you a long essay on how to control your pH, and how to run a successful tank by planning and choosing the right fish in the first place. But really instead of asking long winded questions here and expecting constructive answers telling you exactly how to go about them, you should first plan your tank by researching on the web instead of trying to extract every little detail from everyone else when things go wrong. Besides, this is a disscussion board so we should be discussing problems, and the best easiest way to go about it. Not writing great long threads on every aspect of water pH, all you need to do is type something like "water pH tetras" on google to get what you need. Now my previous post I wrote was supposed to be trying to give you constructive critisism, and telling you the easiest way about going about it. 
But if you want me help you with your tank I will start of by saying this, as this is the way I would do it:

First off, decide what type of fish you want. Do you want to keep your tetras? Maybe you want to stay with your mollies? If you do want to carry on with keeping tetras and other softwater fish (which we already discussed), then the first thing you need to do before buying more is do get rid of all the fish which will suffer in water that tetras are used to, E.G. take back any hardwater livebearers I.E. your mollies. Then, with your tetras still in the tank, (if you've still got them) add a touch of peat to the filter or subtrate (under the gravel) at regular intervals to get your pH to around 6. You must measure your pH levels every day as the changes mustn't be too drastic, I would day no more than 0.2 in the change of the pH every day. Once your pH is around six, (this is the best pH for tetras, but for a communiny tank with tetras and other community fish pH 6.5-7 is OK) your water will start to turn darker in colour. Don't be alarmed as tetras and other softwater fish from the black waters actually like a tinge to the water as they will feel more secure. 
If you don't want to use peat but will like to use apH down buffer (not recommended in the long term), then you can use peat extract that will turn the water black, but will hardly have an effect on your pH when used to treat hard water.
If you would like to do without the hastle of pH buffers to change the pH, you can choose some of the less demanding fish in terms of pH such as zebra danios, which don't mind a pH of about 7.5 in the long run. If your pH is still around 7.5-7.8, you could choose some of the hardwater fish like the livebearers or rift lake cichlids, but for the cichlids, a buffer to raise the pH to around 8 such as cruched coral or limestone will be good.

I hope I've covered everything, but don't forget pH is a relatively small part of fish keeping in terms of water quality, but hopefully as time pogresses, you will learn a lot more about what it takes to become a succussful fishkeeper.
Good day.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Stealth, whatever you decide to do, remember, you have to do it to your new water every time you do a water change. Big hassle..... Much easier to choose fish that will do well in your tap water.


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