# breeding for feeders?



## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Is it something reasonably easy to accomplish? I am looking for something I can breed easily and with limited space and bettas came to mind since they don't need heat/filtration. 

Suggestions?


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Bettas are fairly difficult to get to breed actually. Also bettas do need heat and filtration. Many people think they don't but they do, especially if you want them to breed. 

Guppies are probably the easiest fish to breed. If you put them in a tank with a ratio of 2 or 3 females per male they will breed very quickly. You still need heat, and a sponge filter (a regular filter will suck up fry), but they do breed very fast.

Also, why did you start another thread if you already had a thread about breeding guppies?


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

This one is about breeding bettas and the potential for using them as feeders.

I was to understand that bettas did better in stagnant water. Is this a misconception or is my info of their origins wrong?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

They need slow water to avoid disturbing their bubble nests, but it still need to be clean or babies will die. Betta babies are very small and somewhat a pain since they need really clean water and really tiny food.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

I've raised goldfish fry, they are amongst the worst for die-offs I've ever seen in animals and super tiny. My first fish breeding though


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Also: What area of the water column do bettas usually utilize when in a tank? A nice male could be well suited in my tank if they like the top, as that entire section goes unused.


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## Chard56 (Oct 10, 2010)

Do you really think we are supposed to help you raise and feed our favorite fish to your Oscar or what ever it is? Give me a break.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Chard56 said:


> Do you really think we are supposed to help you raise and feed our favorite fish to your Oscar or what ever it is? Give me a break.


I'm sorry to offend fanatics, but if you would venture out of this part of the forum (see: betta) there is a world of fish/newt/animal that needs to be fed. I was wondering what would be best, give conditions, to allow for maximum success given the once per week or less culling to throw fish to my newts.

You may love your fish but to others they are food. See Salmonidae and those that have to catch and release for reference. Sometimes, your pretty little punnet square really doesn't matter.

While on the topic, and I'm sure you've done this, lets talk about the genetics of inbreeding, shall we? How much have you done? How much has your punnet square said it's okay?

cast stones, do it at your full strength.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Our favorite fish?

People breed fish as feeders all the time. Bettas just arent the best choice. Guppies and shrimp are the most easy to breed. There is very little you need to do for them.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

I'd count culling as worse than feeding any day.


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## Chard56 (Oct 10, 2010)

I don't line breed nor do I have enough deformities to cull. If I have one that's unsellable I just keep it. Don't be so quick to judge and put those stones to better use... in your aquarium.


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

In any situation where you are breeding, I don't care if it's to take the offspring to compete in a show or to feed to an Oscar, you have to give the fish ideal conditions and treat them in a humane manner.

Guppies breed themselves in the proper water conditions. In poor conditions they will die off, just like any other fish. Bettas are more finicky. You have to first find a male that wants to build a bubble nest. If that doesn't happen, nothing else matters. I've had males that build nests all the time and others that never build a nest. Once you get the nest, you have to find a compatible female and treat the spawn as if you plan to raise the fish to adulthood. You can't skimp on the fry rearing just because they are intended as newt food.


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## Flare (Dec 17, 2010)

It has nothing to do with our love for these fish (though I could never feed a betta to anything) it's simple fact that bettas are quite hard to breed and raise, the parents have to be properly conditioned for 2 - 3 weeks on live and frozen foods. The breeding tank needs to be heated, the male needs a place to build his bubblenest, the female needs to be placed in a hurricane glass until the males nest is completed. They will chase and nip each other, bettas can be killed during the breeding process, and getting them to breeding is the easy part, raising the fry is super hard, they can only be fed live foods, need tons of water changes, ect ect ect. 

Breed guppies, they're easy... Bettas are way to hard to breed to be used as feeders, it just wouldn't make sense.


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## hXcChic22 (Dec 26, 2009)

Guppies are a way more intelligent choice. We got some feeder guppies to add some life (and be nommed) in one of our tanks, and we've already seen a couple fry swimming around. We've had them about a month. 

Bettas take far too long to mature and be worth anything as fodder, anyway. I don't see how anyone could see them as a feasible food source. The only way a betta becomes food around here is if it dies, because why waste when our snake will eat it?


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I think it would be mean to use bettas as feeder fish because they are intelligent and are not practical to breed for feeders. Culling is different. With culling, you are planning on raising some to adults. With what you are saying, you are planning on spawning them, raising them for 4 months in an 80 degree water temp, minimum 20 gallon aquarium. It would be SUCH a waste of money!!!!!~!!!!!! Why go to all the trouble killing off 100 4 month old fry whom you have put SO MUCH effort into when you could breed guppys and in 2 months of less special treatment and get 15 feeder fish. I would say it would be such a waste of time to even breed guppys unless you had a 30 gallon with 5 pairs of guppys who are giving birth rapidly. I would say just buy 5 cent feeder fish and giving them to your oscar. Let's say you get paid 10 bucks an hour. You would put in at least 30 hours of work into bettas and at 10 bucks an hour, that would be 300 bucks. How many feeder fish would that be? PLENTY! And if you get 10 cent feeder fish, those are the size of maybe 3 4 month old betta fry. It would be a BIG waste of time and I would encourage you to just buy little 10 cent feeders who are bred to be feeder fish unlike bettas who are bred for beauty. Also, veiltail bettas would sell for a buck fifty to a store. With a buck 50, you could get feeder fish too. Betta breeding is NOT profitable unless you are breeding at chard's level. (even then, I'm not sure he makes much money) The reason we breed bettas is because we love the fish and enjoy watching them. I'm sure chard loves bettas! You can say betta breeding is hard~!!!


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Culling is still morally reprehensible compared to feeding them to animals. I even consulting my brother, who is an ethicist getting his PhD, and he concurs. 

Bettas are certainly not intelligent in the scheme of the osteichthys. If you want intelligence, you should check out Elephant Nose Fish, which have a encephalization quotient rivaled only by humans.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Culls are often used as feeders, I can't see breeding bettas for feeders. Its entirely too much trouble. But if you need feeders, a heavy-culling breeder would be a good source. 
You don't want intelligence in a feeder. Feeder convicts have a rep. for surviving, growing up in the "feedee" tank and then breeding and beating up the big fish in defense of their spawn. 

In general, the "fancier" or more removed from wild the breeding, the more heavy the cull.  Koi and goldifish have huge spawns and only a small number reach full pond size. The cliche is that each koi breeder has one arowana. Hybrids such as "flowerhorns" that have many ancestor species are also culled heavily to keep the desired characteristics.

I prefer breeding wild-type fish and not culling. But there are ethical reasons to cull. Breeding deformed fish that will have a diminished quality of life is NOT a good thing. If you have room to separate the sexes and keep the fish for life, good for you. But you could argue that breeding an endangered species would be a better use of tank space.

If you breed for feeders, you want healthy well-cared for fish. The ethics aside, sick feeders will get your eaters sick. Fish raised in stressful, overcrowded conditions with poor water quality will inevitably get sick. The whole point of breeding your own is to control the disease risk and insure they are nutritious by feeding the feeders well. If you can't give feeders good conditions, you aren't doing your big fish any favors. They might be better off on pellets, frozen or a purchased live food such as California blackworms.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I would recommend you go down to a local pond and catch mosquito fish or killifish.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Our local fish are kind of limited, being that I live in Canada and on the prairies to boot!


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

So you can't just walk to a pond and catch 20 fish and throw em in with your oscar?


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## Chard56 (Oct 10, 2010)

Perfect! Canadian nightcrawlers are free for the taking......during summer. Oh well, back to the drawing board.


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

Be careful throwing out "go collect" advice outside your home region. Pretty much everything around me is an endangered species--especially the killies (desert pupfish). Even if you don't end up in jail or with a hefty fine, you still don't want to make feeders of them.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I just live with a BUNCH of mosquito fish that overpopulate a pond close buy.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Betta man said:


> So you can't just walk to a pond and catch 20 fish and throw em in with your oscar?


Newts. They are newts. When did anyone say oscar?

Yeah, we don't have much that is allowed for that kind of thing here in Alberta. We protect our natural resources, wildlife included (as well as import restrictions) rather aggressively. That said, 6-8 months of the year all water is unavailable to get anything from because of ice. During summer months, it's rather hard harvesting anything, considering the laws.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

emc7 said:


> there are ethical reasons to cull. Breeding deformed fish that will have a diminished quality of life is NOT a good thing. If you have room to separate the sexes and keep the fish for life, good for you. But you could argue that breeding an endangered species would be a better use of tank space.


Deformed fish, perhaps. Fish that aren't as pretty? Morally reprehensible. 90% of culls, perhaps more, are because they don't have the desired trait. Commercialization is the best way to prevent a species from going extinct, since you mentioned it. If only someone had the foresight to commercialize rhino horn- you breed the animals in captivity, cutting off the mature horn which causes no pain as there is no nervous interaction if you cut it high enough. There isn't even any blood! We can keep dreaming, but endangered species that aren't commercially viable on a large enough scale (per animals needs) won't happen.

Long and short, crying 'oh we remove deformities' isn't the same as taking potentially genetically superior/healthier animals and culling them because they aren't pretty enough.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

some of the best fish to breed for feeders are jewel cichlids and convicts...
they have spawns of several hundred ; are very easy to breed and you don't need any kind of special super fine foods...
but they ; like almost all fish ; need a heated filtered tank..
set up 2 20 gallon longs..place a pair of convicts in one...about 2-4 weeks after the fry are free swimming , move the parents to the other tank...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you breed a prolific species, you need some means of population control. Keep every fry and you end up killing all of them slowing with poor conditions, like a cat hoarder. In the wild, other fish take care of it. Feeding most of the fry to a big fish is pretty similar to what happens in nature. Its not the most ethical, but what are the alternatives? Not keeping the fish at all? Keeping it in "community" tank and hope you get a few survivors? If PETA had its way, there would be no aquarium hobby and fish that are extinct in the wild would go completely extinct. 

No matter how "rare" a fish you breed, sooner or later everyone who wants it has it. Then everyone dumps it in favor of the next "rare" fish and the common fish vanishes from the hobby. When the wild home is gone or polluted, you never see the fish again ever. 

I don't have problems with people culling, though I have a hard time doing it myself. I do have problems with balloon mollies and double tail goldfish. Fish that suffer from significant, often fatal health issues being deliberately bred for because they 'look cool' bother me a lot more than selecting for long fins and nice color. 

Back on topic, I reiterate, breed for feeders if and only if you can keep the feeders in good, healthy conditions or what you feed them to will get sick.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

Nice tip with the cichlids. I would have some in a heartbeat, but alas, that is not possible right now. 



emc7 said:


> If you breed a prolific species, you need some means of population control. Keep every fry and you end up killing all of them slowing with poor conditions, like a cat hoarder. In the wild, other fish take care of it. Feeding most of the fry to a big fish is pretty similar to what happens in nature. Its not the most ethical, but what are the alternatives? Not keeping the fish at all? Keeping it in "community" tank and hope you get a few survivors? If PETA had its way, there would be no aquarium hobby and fish that are extinct in the wild would go completely extinct.


They are out of their minds. Seriously, look up what their leader wants done with her body when she dies. That isn't morality, it is mental illness.



> No matter how "rare" a fish you breed, sooner or later everyone who wants it has it. Then everyone dumps it in favor of the next "rare" fish and the common fish vanishes from the hobby. When the wild home is gone or polluted, you never see the fish again ever.


I hear ya. Herpetoculture is even worse for this- they will breed animals worth thousands so much that they crash their own markets. They will have upwards of 1000 snakes in tupperware containers, or inbreed bearded dragons to the point where they are scaleless and they hold this up like accomplishment. I urged them to stop this, and received two death threats in my province so I just stopped participating.



> I don't have problems with people culling, though I have a hard time doing it myself. I do have problems with balloon mollies and double tail goldfish. Fish that suffer from significant, often fatal health issues being deliberately bred for because they 'look cool' bother me a lot more than selecting for long fins and nice color.


bearded dragon example up in this! 



> Back on topic, I reiterate, breed for feeders if and only if you can keep the feeders in good, healthy conditions or what you feed them to will get sick.


I'm trying with the small tank and some guppies, we'll see how it turns out. The females are all pregnant and very healthy, so is the male (minus pregnancy)!


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

> They are out of their minds. Seriously, look up what their leader wants done with her body when she dies. That isn't morality, it is mental illness.


http://www.peta.org/features/Ingrid-Newkirks-Unique-Will.aspx


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Wow. I don't have an issue with human skin leather or feeding human meat to lions or some other hungry carnivore. But humans eating humans has the same health risk that feeding fish to fish have. Parasites and other diseases will have a nice, easy transmission method. And i don't think getting a body part fed-ex or hearing about the delivery would be at all effective in changing human behavior. 

I figure PETA goal of treating every animal as the 'moral equivalent' of a human will be met when human society degenerates to the point that we farm humans for parts and meat, selective breed for desirable traits, and sell each other as pets. Its looking closer every day.


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## Ponera (Oct 31, 2011)

LOL not to mention receiving human body parts from organizations is usually considered a threat. I'm sure the canadian parliament will not only respond the way peta wants, but will be grateful and non combative about it, Hah!

Also peta honestly loves animals, but not people. They are so close to cult status.


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