# getting ready to breed. which pair?



## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

i am getting ready to breed my bettas, i dont have the tank or anything yet, but i am getting within the next few days. here is what i am planning on

a 5-1/2 gallon tank (ten if its better)
heater (duh)
sponge filter,
plenty of plants, (of course)

but my main question is which pair i should breed. the pictures dont portray there colors very good.

the first is a crown-tail female
2. is a reg female
3. is crown-tail male (i think...)
4. is a double-tail (i think, i cant seem to figure out what he is, anyone know?)
5. is a regular viel-tail betta

i am getting another female betta either thursday or sooner. i am waiting for my LFS to get in there batch, but if they dont get em in this thursday i will go save one from wal-mart, i went there today and they had about 30 male bettas (not kidding) and about 15 female bettas, one poor male betta had a little over a inch and a half of water (wal-mart is EVIL)

any-way which pair would you go for?


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## Ownager2004 (Apr 4, 2005)

I cant sex any of those... i dont even know how. But if it was up to me id breed two CTs. I like them better than veil-tails.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

right now the crowntails are all ruffed up (as you can see)


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

The blue female CT & the Red Male CT


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## Imbrium (Feb 7, 2005)

First off, go for the 10gal, it will be waaaaay easier in the long run, plus it's only $10 at Walmart.
Second, what is your goal in breeding? Do you want some specific color/finnage type? This will make a difference in what pair to choose. I would spawn the crowns, but that's just because I really like that girl, she's really cute.
What do you plan on feeding the fry? How soon do you plan on spawning them?
And the red male, he's a doubletail, veiltail.
Oh, and it's really not good to buy fish from Walmart. It just encourages them to get more fish, so more fish end up suffering in the long run. It would be better to give your money to a store that takes good care of their fish.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

the blue feamale, and the green male are the crown-tails.
i like the green crown-tail, his black head, green body (he will look better once he grows his fins back out.

i like the pink,blue female, but the crowntail is the blue, and her fins need to grow out.

the one that has his tail growing back has been building bubble-nests, BUT i also like the double-tail. i was thining of breeding the doulbe-tail, and the blue (CT) female. but what would i get? very confusing for me.

if all goes well i will breed more than once, but it has to go good first...
later this year i am gonna get a halfmoon pair, and maybe a few more tanks (if i had my way there would be tons of tanks in the house)

i still need your opinions, dont know what to do, easier if i had just one pair


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

here is the bubble-nest number 5 (veiltail) built last night/this morning


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

If you are wanting CTs, personally, I'd hold off on the green male since you aren't 100% sure he is a CT. The CT females fins dont look in that bad of shape, I'd be much more concerned about the green boy since you just brought him home and his fins were deteriorating at the shop. Spawning can be very stressfull on bettas so you need to be sure whoever you choose is in good condition. If the boy is not a CT, you might could get some CTs in the F2 by selective breeding.

I think the DT paired with the CT girl would probably give you veilish combtails and maybe some DT if the CT happens to have it hiding in her. F2 maybe you could get some CTs or DTs. If Simpte (or someone else!) is around he might be better able to answer that question as I have never spawned CTs myself. One thing to remember is that VT is very dominant. I think you would have a difficult time breeding totally away from it.

I like the coloring on your pastel looking girlie. The last VT pictured, I see that you used a flash on his pic.. is he red or dark pinkish?


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

the last one is purple red, red towards the head, purple on the body.

i am thinking of doing the dark crowntail female and the double-tail. red and dark purple, so simple science would say, two tails, with the serated look to em right?

but i love the blue fins on the pink female


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Probably not 2 tails in the first generation unless the crowntail girlie is carrying it. Doubletail is recessive so both parents have to carry it for it to be produced. First generation would probably look like veils with serrated edges would be my guess. Breeding a baby back to dad or breeding siblings might get you some doubletails. It is also possible to produce doubletail crowntails but might take a few generations.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

thats what i have been thinking ever since i found the CT female. But could i get it to be what i picture, a tail with a slit down the middle (most of the way) and the serated look. 
i'll breed this pair (i think) and see the outcome, you dont know until you try


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

The "slit" is what makes it a doubletail heh. So, probably second generation you might get some. But you do need to realize with CTxVT that the serrated edges will likely not be nearly as pronounced as they are on the CT. That is something you would have to breed towards and even then they would still likely throw some VTs due to their VT heritage as VT is such a dominant trait.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

so should i do crowntails then?

but where the male CT has bad fins i should wait until they grow back out, so i think pink female & the double-tail. that way it will be something a little bit differant (i hope)


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

With either female to the DT, you will only see DTs in the first generation if the female happens to carry it.

Not so much that the male needs to have his fins totally grown back before spawning, but he *needs* to be quite healthy. If he had fin rot, you want to be sure it is gone and that he has recuperated. Dad is going to need alot of stamina to spawn and then tend nest for days without stopping. Just imagine if you were running and running and couldn't stop for days (likely with no food). Thats basically what dad will be doing (if hes a good dad anyway). I've heard one breeder suggest waiting a month after a sickness before spawning. Without his long fins, the female may be less impressed with him. But when you put together a pair, you really don't know if they will work out or not anyway. 

Something different... purple is different. Many betta breeders have been trying to cement a true purple betta. What you normally see is a royal that looks purple or a copper that looks purple or that red/purple color. So far purple has not bred true but it is highly desirable.

Really *you* need to decide what you want your goal to be and if you are willing to work more than one generation to reach it. You are the one that will be growing the babies, so your opinion is the only one that really counts.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

the CT didnt have fin rot, he was in a tank of rainbow botias. they chewed his tail.

purple eh? i will consider that (nut if the pros cant do it, no way a newb could)
i need to join the IBC, are there any other magazines that stricley bettas?

i would like to breed the purple female, and the red/purple VT, but the VT is bigger than the female.

i still have a little while to decide, anything else you recomend in the breeding tank?


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Poor guy  That had to be quite a horrible experience.

Its ok for the boy to be bigger than the girl because he has to be able to wrap around her. You might be in trouble tho if it was the other way around and the girl was bigger.

Alot of people like to tape a small piece of bubble wrap to the side of the tank so that its floating on the water as a place to anchor the nest and the bubbles often get the male started making a nest. I prefer the split styro cup method mostly because after a little time in the tank, the bubblewrap starts to look a bit funky to me. 

You may opt for using a hurricane chimney to keep her separated from him in the spawn tank until you are sure they are ready. This keeps them in sight of each other but also safe. I always use one tho sometimes longer than other times but I know other people that don't. In the end, you'll do alot by trial and error and what "feels" right to you.

Many people prefer to spawn in water treated with melafix since fin damage is likely to occur. Alot of people also spawn in water treated with an anti-fungal. Some people like to use Indian Almond leaves or blackwater extract to help get their bettas "in the mood" (also some health benefits and can lower ph).

I agree with Imbrium, get the 10. I've noticed that 5s cost more than 10s anyway.. go figure on that one.

Be sure that you have your fry food *before* you spawn. Microworms, Vinegar eels, baby brine shrimp, boiled egg yolk spray, rotifiers, green water are all good choices. I like to start out with MW and VE. I especially like the VE in the first week because they can live so long in the tank, tho its my understanding that they are not as nutritional as some of the other choices.

There may be some other betta only magazines around but I don't know of any other than IBC's Flare. The bettysplendens link I gave you in the other post has some super information. She also has "bettacasts" on her site that you can listen to. Its basically discussion about breeding/raising bettas. Sometimes there are guest speakers and sometimes its discussion amongst her forum members.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

thanks christine


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Welcome. Good luck!


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## Echo (Apr 23, 2006)

I don't think that VT is a DT. I think it's just a split in his tail. His dorsal doesn't show any signs of being a DT. Now the bottom guy looks like he may have some potential, looks like he may have some DT geno if his dorsal grows back as much as the picture makes it look and he also looks like he has some CT geno. But of course all these are from petstores right? If so it won't really matter which ones you pick because you'll never know what you'll end up with. That green CT could throw reds, blues, greens and who knows what other colors. I think I would just take the two you think are most willing to spawn and put them together.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

All health issues aside (none of them are in breeding shape), you should determine what your goals are for breeding before you buy anymore fish and before you try breeding.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

its kinda hard to determine goals when your have never bred before, u guys keep on saying determine your goals first. but i have no clue what the outcome will be.

i think i have something in mind that i can do, with these bettas. but it would take a few generations to do it.

i know that the green crowntail, and blue F, are not in breeding shape. but the DT and VT and F are.
not by there tails, but by there acivity level, # 4 & 5 are like little kids with pepsis in there had. hyper. the CT isnt to active (but he still has a normal apitite and stuff)

what were the first type of bettas you guys bred?


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

*update:*

i am almost prepaired for the breeding tank. i said alomost

i have the 10 gallon tank, soon to get sponge filter, i have a heater, and air pump.
thermomiter, and plants. now i just need fish and water 

i dont have an issue with space. my room is 12' by 18' with a half-wall-shelf along 2walls, i can house 75-100 betta jars just on the wall alone.

all i have left to do is get the live eggs for food, treatment, and few other things. like a heater for the food.

anything else i need in order to have a breeding tank?


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## ultasol (Mar 12, 2006)

I think bettysplendens.com has some breeding/basic genetics info. That might help you define your breeding goals. Perhaps after you practive breeding with these fish of unknown background, you can invest in higher quality stock.


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## stomkat (Apr 9, 2006)

#2, the white with the blue in the fins actually looks like a female to me.

I'd say the red guy IS a DT, it just isn't very pronounced due to the VT genetics. 

I would try the VT DT red male with female #1. Then take the best 2 pairs out of the babies (as far as coloring and CT) and breed them together. This spawn should give you 25% DT, with CT edging. Or, if you're looking for a higher percentage of DT, breeding daughter back to dad should give you 50% DT. 

In breeding green to a blue color, I'd have to look at my note card in my breeding room. Green to other colors is interesting in the outcomes. Mixing any green/blue combo gives different results. Royal blue also gives some interesting things. Royal with red under is what gives bettas the deep purple look, too.

Sherri


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

that was what i was thinking with the DT to the CT.

but it is gonna be a few weeks/months before i can breed the CT. the pink/blue female took a chunk out of her tail, and ate most of her bottom.
i'll post a picture later today to show the damage that the female did


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

i got another CT female today, a very nice looking fish, and a lot biger to.

she is all ready to breed, she is filled up with eggs right now but i am not fully prepared yet to breed so she will have to wait a while.
it will be few hours before i can get a pic of the new female, right now she still doesent know what to do


and also is #2 a halfmoon female? i have no clue what a halfmoon or a VT Fbetta looks like. today when i introduced the new CT they were flaring at eachother and the pink ones tail is right round.


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## Ownager2004 (Apr 4, 2005)

HM (half moon) refers to the tail shape. When flaring the caudal fin (tail fin) should meet the caudal peduncle(base of the tail) at a 90 degree angle on the top and bottom.

top part like this: _|
and the bottom the opposite. Which makes a 180 degree angle/straight line.. which should be perpendicular to the base of the tail.

sometimes people will say under HM and over HM which simply means that the tail is almost HM but either slightly under or over.

Im by no means an expert on bettas but that is my understanding of it. You should be able to make a judgement on your betta now


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

do you think she looks like a HM F in this picture? she is not flaring in this one, just floating there.
when she flares it does meet somewhat with the caudal to the bottom fin, i wasnt really payin attenion at the to fins when she was flaring


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## Echo (Apr 23, 2006)

I strongly disagree that the red one is a DT. It doesn't matter if he has VT genes, if it's really a DT his dorsal would show it, but it's not growing back far at all. It's not unusual for a betta to get a split and it just never heal back right.

Where did you get that female? If you purchased her from a PS more then likely she's just a VT. You will never find a real HM female in a PS unless they actually import the fish, and most chain petstores wouldn't dream of doing that.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

stomkat said:


> #2, the white with the blue in the fins actually looks like a female to me.
> 
> I'd say the red guy IS a DT, it just isn't very pronounced due to the VT genetics.
> 
> ...



This is not entirely accurate. Blue (which is not iridescence) and red will NOT give you purple. They are 2 different layers of coloring. purple (though there is still no true purple betta), is achieved by crossing in a different species of betta (probably imbellis or smaragdina). This brings the copper color into the mix. But thats a later topic that can be discussed or by searching for RC (our former betta guru and one of my mentors) posts.
Steel blue, green, and royal blue are from the same 2 genes but in different forms. (B1, B2 which are incomplete dominant) A (B1+B1) will give you green. (B1+B2) to royal which is the most common. (B2+B2) results in steel.

Keep in mind that you will want fish that carry the Nr or non-red gene as blue and red in a betta is not desireable to breeders and vice versa.
Iridescence is the metalic sheen you see on bettas and has a completely different punnett square. (Normal, spread, non-opaque, and opaque).


As for the CT (or crown tail) I need to clarify some things about this tail "type".......................

A true Crowntail is a betta is a super delta (tail with a spread greater than 145 degrees) with the comb trait. ANY tail can have the comb trait but that does not make it a true ct.

The red guy is not a DT, just an unhealed VT. Crossing a VT to a CT will result in MAYBE 25% VT with the comb trait (never seen that though). VT is the most dominant gene a non wild splendis can have. It will override all other tail traits. Crossing a VT to a DT is a good ideal though as breeding 2 DT results in the shortening of the betta body over time. Most cross a VT that carries the DT trait to a DT. So crossing a VT to DT is the first step, coloring aside. Breeding for a specific color and or tail with a lfs betta will take many, many generations (could take 10+ years). Its impossible to know what genes they carry until they are bred several times and the results are documented.

My first 5 spawns were lfs Vts. Cheap and replaceable if one kills the other. The downside is many lfs bettas are well past their spawning prime. Even if they do breed, there is no guarantee the father will be a good dad.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have more genetic questions.

P.S. Victoria (bettyspledens) is a great person to talk to. She is my betta pal in the IBC.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

...confusing.

so you think that that red betta with the split down his tail is just a VT with a perfect split down the middle? if you were to come to my house and look at the betta, the split is almost perfectly centered.

the blue betta, i am alot postitive that he is a crown-tail, when i saw him before i wanted to get him but i had all of my betta tanks/jars filled up with bettas. then i put my females together in my 10G, so i had some empty tanks
when i went back to the store the betta was still there, but all chewed up.


and my two female bettas look nothing like the pink female.
the two females tails have (i hope i can explain this) little teeth that look like this ....U_U_U_U_U_U_U_U, just combs in the tail


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

Here Christine, a good site for Betta Genetics........
http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/genetics7.htm


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