# Everyone's Favorite :)



## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

Hi All!

First post here, so here comes as much info as I can provide:

30 gallon tank, 150w heater, undergravel filter, HOB filter w/ biowheel. Has a few pieces of ironroot, natural colored gravel, plastic plants, and a few java ferns.

The tank is about 3 years old (I bought it new...). I unfortunately had a recent disaster in my tank (self inflicted unfortunately from business travel, friends overfeeding, and water conditions getting way out of line), so I have no fish in there currently. The tank ended up kicking into a mini-cycle and is working back to being habitable at this time. Ammonia is .25, nitrite .5, nitrate around 80. (My mishap was only about 6 days ago...). pH is 7.1, and hardness is around 180-200. Hopefully this is enough to get everyone going on what my tank status is.

So here's my question: As I will be re-stocking my tank, I was looking to see what everyone thinks of the following setup -

Plants:
hygrophila polysperma
java fern
Possibly an amazon sword?
(insert other suggestions here)

Fish:
Pair of Rams (Debating on Blue or Bolivian)
School of Neons or Cardinals
3 panda cories
1 rubber-lipped pleco (max length is 5")
maybe 2 dwarf african frogs? (these guys rock, but are not vital)

I am open to suggestions. I'm open to other fish varities, but would need compatible tankmates of course. The pH in the tank will be right around 7.0, and from reading various articles I have seen that rams like it slightly acidic, so I'm not sure of how to lower the pH.

I should also mention that I would like to have a fairly peaceful tank that has a bit of activity to it. I don't mind my fish being lazy sometimes, but I would like to actually see them swimming around and chasing one another (having fun) from time to time.

Any suggestions are great! I appreciate any thoughts/concerns you may have


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## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

One other thing: Do rams need a "cave" per-se? I have plenty of spots where they can be alone, as well as having driftwood for them to hang out near (see picture link in post below...)


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## cucci67 (Aug 3, 2005)

The ADF's will never survive unless you spot feed them (place the food in front of their faces with a dropper). They are not nearly as competitive as any of the fish in your tank at getting food. I suggest you leave them out. 

Here's what I think for stocking:
2 blue rams (nicer colored than bolivian)
8 neons (these will really add activity to your tank)
4 panda cories (3 isn't enough for them to school)
1 rubber lipped pleco or 3 ottos (ottos muc more active than plecos)

everything in there is peaceful and active. Pretty nice tank your planning there.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

northfacehiker said:


> Hi All!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Use "pH down" or "pH up" sold at any pet store


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## cucci67 (Aug 3, 2005)

I am not a big fan of using chemicals to maintain water qualtity. You need a buffer that will keep the ph at that level naturally. I am not sure of one that brings the ph down, but someone should reply soon with one.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

cucci67 said:


> I am not a big fan of using chemicals to maintain water qualtity. You need a buffer that will keep the ph at that level naturally. I am not sure of one that brings the ph down, but someone should reply soon with one.


Hate to say it....but buffers are chemicals too...

Theyre a mix of a week acid and strong base (or vice versa) at a certain concentration (base/acid) that is used to buffer against certain acids and/or bases. And by adding pH up your adding base and by using pH down your using an acid so ur basically putting in the same stuff when u add a buffer or pH up/down


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## craftyflalady (Jan 25, 2006)

*I would never use Ph up or down. It only lasts a short time so your tank is always bouncing around with the ph. It's best to just let your fish get used to your ph and not messing with your water chemistry. If you wanna try and lower your ph...just add some peat to your filter. Natural lowering is always better then chemicals. 

The more "stuff" you add to your water, the more problems your inviting into your tank. ;-)

JMHO ;-)*


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## biskit (Nov 17, 2005)

A nice piece of driftwood would lower your pH naturally. :fish:


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2006)

> A nice piece of driftwood would lower your pH naturally.


Yes, get some Malaysian DW if you must lower the pH.

A pH of 7 is fine. Most fish will adapt to any pH, as long as its constant, so you don't have to lower it. I had a blue ram in my tank with a pH of 7. She recently died after an injury, but I had her for 6 months and throughout that time she was always healthy and colorful.

I have never adjusted pH for my fish...just let it remain the same.

I agree on leaving out the ADFs, unless you have the time and patience to make sure they eat. If you do, then go for it. They just take more attention.

I like the stocking cucci suggested, but I would get atleast 6 pandas. They do better the more you have. They play with each other and love the company of their own kind. If you can get 8, then go for 8. They are much happier in larger groups.

If the neons or cardinals are going to be the only school in the tank, bump the number up to 10 or 12. You have room! Don't add everything all at once though, but I'm sure you know that.

Are you adding ammonia to get through the mini-cycle? Just making sure since I see you mentioned that the tank is empty. 

I think an Amazon sword will out grow your tank. They get huge and will even outgrow 55g tanks. I would stick with the hygro, java fern, some crypts and anubias.
How much light do you have? If its low light (around a 30 watt bulb or lower), then that is about all you can grow. If you were to upgrade the lighting, you could grow more medium light stem plants.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2006)

harif87 said:


> Use "pH down" or "pH up" sold at any pet store


That wouldn't work because you would have to add it everyday and that can really dig into your wallet everytime you have to buy some more. I would go with the pleco more than otto's because pleco's are better algae eaters and look cooler at night when they are out sucking on the decor. Trust me I have both pleco and otto's and I am more interested in my pleco because even though there isn't any algae in the tank at the time he still comes out looking for it and eating any uneaten food while my otto's don't even come out at night, I have to take the net and move them around occasionally because they are in the same place 24/7 whenever I see them.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

i guess pH up/down might not be the best idea...

But what does everyone mean to imply by saying "it lowers pH NATURALLY"???? ........im not understanding cause....NATURE USES CHEMICALS...... i mean thats what nature is, the coexistence of different chemicals in harmony....just cause u add chem's dont mean its not "natural"....
Sorry i just dont know what u guys mean...lol


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

What people mean when they say "By natural means" is by using things commonly found in streams, rivers, and oceans to control the pH. Not by adding things found in a bottle. 

*Lowering pH*
Lowering pH is not as easy as raising it. Filtering over peat moss is the method of choice. It is continuous and relatively easy to do. The use of bogwood to decorate the aquarium has a similar effect, although it's not as easy to maintain as using peat moss in the filter. 

Another method to lower pH is to mix distilled or RO (reverse-osmosis) water with your tap water to reduce both the hardness and pH. This is effective for smaller pH changes, and you must keep in mind that every time you perform a water change, or top off the tank you'll have to mix water. In other words, if you need to greatly lower the pH of your water, think twice – it is going to be an uphill battle. 

The addition of CO2 will lower the pH of your water. If you have live plants, the use of CO2 is an excellent option. There are several means of adding CO2, from high-end commercial equipment to simple do-it-yourself systems. 

*Raising pH*
It's not often that the pH must be increased, as most water sources are already slightly to moderately alkaline. In the event your water is acidic, and you want to keep fish that originate from alkaline water (as is the case for certain Cichlids). 

Filtering the water over crushed coral is the method of choice for raising the pH. The use of limestone rocks in decorating the tank will also raise the pH, but keep in mind that you will not be able to adjust it readily. 

The addition of bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) will also raise the pH and has the added benefit of buffering the water. Keep in mind that this will be an ongoing thing, so you can't add it once and forget about it and its not really "natural"


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

fish_doc said:


> What people mean when they say "By natural means" is by using things commonly found in streams, rivers, and oceans to control the pH. Not by adding things found in a bottle.
> 
> *Lowering pH*
> Lowering pH is not as easy as raising it. Filtering over peat moss is the method of choice. It is continuous and relatively easy to do. The use of bogwood to decorate the aquarium has a similar effect, although it's not as easy to maintain as using peat moss in the filter.
> ...


Wow, really great run down, makes tons of sense. Thanks


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## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

Wow! Thanks a ton everyone! I appreciate all of the information!

The tank finished it's mini-cycle (and I cheated and got some bio-spira!). So here's my verdict on what I've done and am planning to do:

2 blue rams (they're about an inch each, and it appears they are a pair!)
3 dwarf rainbowfish (Clear-ish, bright yellow stripe on their back, fins, and bottom of stomach. There is also a black stripe on their dorsal fin, and a white dot on the end of each back fin. They have a irridescent bluish-black stripe that runs right down the center of their body. They're not supposed to get longer than about 2".)

That's what I have in there now... here's what's to come:

4-6 panda cories (i have no problem keeping a school!)
Neons??? (can I still keep them even with the rainbows?)

As for the pH, I have 3 large pieces of Iron-root in my tank. I need to take a picture and I'll post the link for all to see!

Thanks a million to everyone for the feedback!!!!!


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

> and I cheated and got some bio-spira!


Going back to the natural vs bottled. This is one of the very few products that is natural product in a bottle. It is the only brand of "aquarium starter" that really works and that is because it is the real thing.


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## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

Here's a photo of the tank (not great, but it gets the job done...)
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/internetusertoo/137_3720.jpg

So what does everyone think about the neons thing? I would really like to keep some, but don't want to approach over-crowding my tank.

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback. I appreciate the responses.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Your tank is beautiful. Neons like the softest, most acidic water of any fish I know as well as being kind of fragile and susceptible to lots of diseases. So it is the one tetra I wouldn't try to keep in pH 7.0. I don't think they are for the faint of heart, but if you get them breeding, they are always in demand. Of neons and cardinals I like cardinals better, they're bigger with more red.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> ur basically putting in the same stuff when u add a buffer or pH up/down


 pH up is Sodium Hydroxide, It a strong base, not a buffer. Most aquarium products like seachems acid regulator are a blend of buffers that aim to keep the pH in a range. pH up can burn your fish if it hits them, and theres no limit to how high your pH can go with it and nothing to keep the pH from crashing down again. I don't recommend any pH products for newbies, its much easier to choose fish that suit your water, but buffers have their place in the hobby. pH Up and Down don't. They should go back to the lab.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

emc7 said:


> pH up is Sodium Hydroxide, It a strong base, not a buffer.


Thats why i said "basically" the same thing. A buffer would probably contain something like NaOH (sodium hydroxide-strong) mixed with an acid like LiH (lithium hydride-weak acid), or maybe something like HCl (Hydrochloric Acid-strong acid) mixed with CsOH(Cesium Hydroxide-weak base)



> pH up can burn your fish if it hits them,


If you mean to say that the moment it touches ur fish then the fish will get burned then im afraid your a little off. Acids and bases dont have that power as they do in cartoons. Only if the fish were swimming in a tank of pure NaOH then they would get burned. 
The reason why they dont get burned is because the NaOH doesnt stay in the water as NaOH.... it mixes with the acid in the water (which is why you added the pH up in the 1st place because the water was too acidic) and forms a salt NaX (where x is the other chemical once it gave off its H+ Ion) and water. The base doesnt burn your fish.....maybe its some myth....but its not true


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2006)

I don't see any fish in the tank, was this pic taken before you added the fish? BTW the tank looks great!


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2006)

> So it is the one tetra I wouldn't try to keep in pH 7.0


My pH is 7.0 and I keep neons. Haven't had any problems with them and I've been keeping them in the same pH for about 6 months now...the whole time I've kept them. As long as the pH isn't extremely different than what they need, they will adapt.


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

In most cases with most common aquarium fish - pH is not as big of a issue as people make it out to be. 
The three main issues are Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite. 

pH comes into play when trying to breed many types of fish or general care for extreamly delicate fish. In addition to that many fish are no longer bread in their natural enviornment. And I guarentee you that these fish farms do not try to match it when breeding these fish in huge ponds. It is not as important to find out what their origional environment is as it is to find out the environment is at the farm they were raised in. (Which you will probably never know)


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## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

There weren't any fish in the tank in the picture I had previously posted. I have taken a few extras, and there they are:

Tank:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/internetusertoo/137_3742.jpg

My German Blues:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g319/internetusertoo/137_3729.jpg

The pH in the tank has settled to 6.8, largely due to the extra driftwood I added (the large piece in the center).

I'm not sure of what type of plan is in the picture over on the left (dark purple/silverish looking), so if anyone knows, I'd apprecaite the feedback.

One last question if anyone can answer:

Where can I get a dual-lamp hood for my tank? It's a flourescent tube (I have an aqua-glo 20watt 16,000K bulb in there now), but I would like to find one that has two bulbs so I can keep more plants. The back row in my tank that are all the same stuff are fake, and I would love to have a fully live-planted tank if possible, but the light is the key I need to update.

Thanks!


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2006)

How long is the tank? I'll see what I can find online.


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## northfacehiker (May 31, 2006)

JustOneMore20 said:


> How long is the tank? I'll see what I can find online.


It's a 24" bulb. The tank itself is 36" I think, but I will have to double-check when I get home. Look for an edit in a few hours.


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