# Need Help Here



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks: 

I have spent a ton of $'s on guppies ranging from LiveAquaria to "high end show guppy trios". 

Even in my "pristine water conditions" they have all died and my angels were not "aggravating them". 

With a loaches order I have also ordered 10 each of two types of show guppy juvies. 


I anticipate: 

setting up two 5G "fancy tanks" which is in my garage, 

siphoning water from my main tank to the 5G tanks, 

adding the guppies, 

setting up a siphon system from my main tank to the 5G tanks and out of the 5G tanks to the sink, 

feeding them with flakes, brine shrimp and beefheart recipe 

and growing them to near adulthood before putting them in my main tank. 

Does anyone believe that this "will work" and if not then "what do I need to do"?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The problem may be your "pristine water conditions". I used to have guppies thrive in "liquid rock" Illinois well water, I've had poor luck with guppies & mollies in the "rainwater" type water here in Atlanta. My goodieds are now thriving in my Malawi (buffered & hardened water) tank. I really think guppies need hard water and/or salt. Because Angels prefer the softest water (they do ok in harder), I wouldn't keep them in the same tank now. You can still breed guppies for Angel food, but if your main tank is successful without guppies, I wouldn't advise changing the water chemistry.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

*I appreciate it Em:

More details for you to cogitate and hopefully provide input on:*

I purchased 10 each of two types of show guppies and 6 each of hill stream loaches.
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/sewellia-lineolata

I anticipated that I would receive juvies but I received fry (the little devils are "bearly" visible).
Tank One has 10 show guppies and 6 loaches and Tank Two has 10 show guppies.

Although I have been successful in raising Pleco Queens (which are very, very sensitive fish) I have been totally unsuccessful in keeping show guppies.

I had set up two 5G tanks which I had anticipated placing 10 show guppies in each.

Although I had cycled the two 5G tanks I had purchased and set them up in order to acclimatize the juvies for several weeks prior to placing them in my main tank.

The water surface in the two 5G's is lower than the main tank but higher than the kitchen sink.

I am siphoning the 5G's water into the sink and replacing it with water from the main tank (This water as fairly pristine due to the type of mechanical filtration and the quantity of biological filtration in the main tank as well as the significant number of but small WC's which I accomplish in the main tank).

I concocted the "blended brine shrimp and squid" food because as soon as I saw the size of the fish I began hunting for liquifi in San Angelo and no joy.

I am feeding 2ml of the food to Tank One and 1ml of the food to Tank Two.
This food is consumed within a few minutes (these little devils are fun to watch [although you can bearly see them] due their voracious appetites) and was feeding three times a day.
(Just twice a day now as I am at the Chris' ranch and one of my staff is feeding twice a day.)

The tanks have very rudimentary mechanical filtration and a very rudimentary biowheel for biological filtration.

Although I cycled the tanks I never anticipated "counting on the tanks' filtration media for filtration" as I am doing 50% WC's every three days.

I feed flakes approximately 25% flakes in my main tank and I anticipated weening these fish onto 25% flakes when they were very visible (ie. had grown some).

*Anyone else?*

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

When the guppies get a little larger, make sure they get some vegetable matter in their diets. Mine did well on mainly spirulina flake.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2007)

Guppies don't really need weening onto flake foods. You can feed them crushed flakes from the start, and like emc7 said they need a significant amount of vegetable matter in their staple diet. The proteins in a heavily meaty diet will help them grow faster, but to continue to thrive they will need some vegetable.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sk and Em:

Yall reckon one of my homemade recipes in which brine shrimp and squid are the meaties would work.
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/fyi-your-info/17320-homemade-recipes-west-texas-style.html

Em:

I have previously researched for procurement of spirulina flakes and found that the "cheapest" were distributed by "Health Food Chains".
(I have not purchased these products because of my concern that impurities may exist in the products which are not published but which are toxic to fish.)

I have not found a tropical fish vendor for "pure spirulina flakes" but which markets in bulk (ie. a reasonable cost).

Where do you procure your flakes from?

TR


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## Osiris (Jan 18, 2005)

Believe guppies come from Black water's dont they? 

Also, have you looked into what they feed on in the wild?


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## doggydad38 (Jan 18, 2005)

I have been purchasing all of my fish foods from Florida Guppies Plus for years, www.flguppiesplus. Very reasonable prices and excellent quality foods. I've been raising Guppies for years and it's a crap shoot when purchasing them. Our fancy lines are much more inbred and weaker than common or feeder Guppies. Younger fish tend to acclimate much more quickly and better than older individuals. I'd recommend cutting out the squid and sticking with the Brine Shrimp. Spirulina flake food is a good addition, but vegetable material isn't as important to the diet of a Guppy as it is to that of Mollies. Generally, I feed nothing but newly hatched baby brine shrimp for the first week to 10 days. Then I feed FGP Fry Formula (crushed) 3 times a day with bbs in between for another 2 weeks. This is changed to FGP Growth Formulas with one feeding of bbs through adulthood. This is a lot of food being fed, so keep up the water changes. Good luck with this new batch of Guppies.
Tony


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Tony

Several Items:

1) That link timed out and locked up my computer (running XP) twice and once was after cold booting (ie. you got another one?).

2) Just curious here but the literature indicates that squid have a higher concentration of protein than brine shrimp?

3) When you "say" BBS I am presuming that you mean "home grown".
I have hatched them with the typical inverted cone "setup" but this is way beyond a real PITA even with valving off the airline into a discharge cup.
Do you have a better method?

TR


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2007)

Brine shrimp have virtually no nutritional value. They are mostly made up of water. Frankly, I don't know why you would want to use it. Really all brineshrimp is good for is for a treat or for getting very picky fish eating something.


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## Osiris (Jan 18, 2005)

For adults, i can see brine shrimp not being a sustainable sole food. But as babies and fry, BBS is the life force for these little guys to grow up til can take bigger foods. With fish eating them readily, mixing brine shrimp with garlic extract helps the immune system, and drink milk, does a body good


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I've had good luck supplementing with frozen baby brine (Hikari) and Azoo artificial artemia. First bites are really small, too. But a small live food such as bbs, microworms or daphnia really seems to boost survival rates in small fry. I find microworms easier than bbs, but some people have the opposite experience.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks:

I appreciate the input.

TR


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Wow.
With all these varied opinions on food and water whizzing about, it's little wonder why so many people have such differing opinions on whether guppies are easy or difficult to keep.

Brineshimp.

Everyone who grows guppies in a big way knows full well that brineshrimp are KEY. Yes, day-old brineshrimp have indeed already lost most of their nutritional value, but just hatched, or better yet, UNhatched ones are fantastic.
To make this easy, just get a bunch of decapsulated brineshimp eggs. wash them well and let them soak a few hours at most, and then feed them before they hatch. Do this several times per day and your guppy fry will grow at an amazing rate and to a much better size than you'll get otherwise. You can buy such eggs already ready, but they are pricey, so learn how to decapsulate them yourself for big savings.

"First Bites" is a commercial food in a pouch, and it looks like a typical Hikari-type product at first glace. this food is really made for egglayer fry, but guppies take to it quite nicely.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2007)

Kensfish.com sells pure spirulina flake as well as a veggie flake. You can buy 1/2lb, 1lb, or 2lb bags. (will have to scroll down a bit to find it)


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> Believe guppies come from Black water's dont they


I don't think so. S. America, but not the amazon. Livebearing fishes (Dawes) suggests 1 tsp of salt per gallon.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

One thing all of you are overlooking..... Guppies like cooler temps, while as we all know, Angels like it hot.


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## ni317 (Jan 18, 2005)

I have never been able to keep any guppies with out salt witch is not good for angels Sue is also right guppies like cooler water my endlers and guppies fair pertty well at 75 to 79 where as angels need 80+ to be happy campers 
With the food thing for fry when I kept 100's of fry at a time the best thing I found was a coffee grinder it made fine food for the fry and was easy for the older fish to get I also use decapped brine shrimp eggs also sence hatching can be a pain and not work all the time and there just as good or better for the guppies.
Diana


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks:

*I very, very much appreciate everyone's input here!*



ni317 said:


> With the food thing for fry when I kept 100's of fry at a time the best thing I found was a coffee grinder it made fine food for the fry and was easy for the older fish to get


Diana:

What type of food are you "running through the coffee grinder"?

If the food includes beef heart, fresh fish, shrimp, green peas, etc you may have just solved by "blender problem" (ie. controlling the size of the food).

Please refer to
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/fyi-your-info/17320-homemade-recipes-west-texas-style.html




TheOldSalt said:


> ... so learn how to decapsulate them yourself for big savings.


Tos:

Will the instructions at
http://www.attention-to-details.com/newslog/34h-instructions-for-decapsulating-and.asp
work as I probably have 2 pounds of eggs in my garage.


*Folks:

This may be my imagination but it appears the fry have doubled in size since I received them 2 weeks ago.
(feeding the blended brine shrimp and squid).
Is this doubling in size normal, too little or not enough.
*

TR


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## mesapod (Aug 18, 2007)

It is normal you just must be feeding them the right things and the tank water must be good so they are going through a huge growth spurt.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

That growth rate isn't too unusual under good conditions.

The decapsulation method you found is okay. Look around some more and you'll find a few others. Most of them will have the core points matching, but will differ in cumbersomeness. This method you found will work fine, but I think you can find an even easier one with some searching.

Oh one more thing-- you said your water conditions were Pristine. Is this the same soft pristine water in which you are growing your softwater plants? If so then that's part of your problem. Guppies are certainly not softwater fish. Native San Angelo water should, however, be pretty much perfect for them right out of the faucet if it's anything like San Antonio's water. ( once dechlorinated and aerated, of course ) I've been to San Angelo many times, by the way.


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## ni317 (Jan 18, 2005)

I used the coffee grinder for makeing fine powder out of flake food 
I use Kens fish food also.Most the time I buy a 1/2 pound of 3 or 4 types mix small amounts of each and them make it in to a fine powder 
Diana


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

TOS:



TheOldSalt said:


> Oh one more thing-- you said your water conditions were Pristine. Is this the same soft pristine water in which you are growing your softwater plants? If so then that's part of your problem. Guppies are certainly not softwater fish.


Yes I know.
That is the reason "this go round" I purchased fry instead of grown "high dollar" adults.
I hope that acclimating them in the two 5G tanks will work.
I really, really do hope that this will work: some platties are nice but "nothing like" high end show guppies.



TheOldSalt said:


> Native San Angelo water should, however, be pretty much perfect for them right out of the faucet ...


Problem here is two fold:
1) Our potable water is typically too hard for my plants and 
2) our water is produced from several surface reservoirs but is not commingled.
Hence when our Water Department changes the reservoir source of our raw water the water parameters change significantly and virtually instantaneously.
Due to 1) and 2) above I installed an RO unit which I had plumbed into my sump.



TheOldSalt said:


> if it's anything like San Antonio's water.


This really surprises me as I "had always believed that" the Edwards Aquifer water was reasonably soft in that only a small portion of the recharge is generated through Edwards Plateau limestone.
I appreciate your noting this.



TheOldSalt said:


> I've been to San Angelo many times, by the way.


God's country ain't it? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 


Diana:



ni317 said:


> I used the coffee grinder for makeing fine powder out of flake food
> I use Kens fish food also.Most the time I buy a 1/2 pound of 3 or 4 types mix small amounts of each and them make it in to a fine powder
> Diana


Do you think that a coffee grinder "will work" for beef heart, fresh fish, shrimp, green peas, etc.
If so you may have just solved my "blender problem" (ie. controlling the size of the food).

TR


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## ni317 (Jan 18, 2005)

I dont know about useing a coffee grinder for that nd food but I am wanting to get away from jared baby food for my 6 month old and ran across this
http://www.toysrus.com/product/inde...81.2256162.2256179&view=all&parentPage=family
Witch would make small amounts of food and costs only a few bucks more than a good coffee grinder 
Diana


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks:

So far so good.

Feeding much more than during week one is necessary in that the quantity of food which is consumed during 5 minutes is much greater than during week one.

I am considering going from the brine shrimp and squid blend to frozen brine shrimp and beef heart recipe this weekend due to the current size of the fish.


Diana:

I appreciate the post.

TR


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## guppybreeder! (Sep 22, 2007)

ni317 said:


> I have never been able to keep any guppies with out salt.....
> Diana


really? i have never kept my guppys with salt and the do just fine.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Diana, guppybreeder what is your water's hardness? Support my theory that guppies need either hard water or salt.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> salt witch is not good for angels


Angels can adapt to salt in the water, I've never kept a cichlid that couldn't. I would be concerned with harming tetra and plants.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> I would be concerned with harming tetra and plants.


emc and folks: 

I have never had a problem, that I am aware of, with the tetras or plants at a salt concentration of 1Tblspn/20Gal.

I have also never had a problem, once again that I am aware of, with any of my fish or plants when I found it necessary to induce "serious salt concentrations" but the induction was in accordance with the protocol set forth at
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/fyi-your-info/17445-ich-fighting-west-texas-style.html

"Things are going well" as I can actually see all the guppies with my 55 year old eyes and glasses from my computer area in my living room.

As I have previously indicated it is very disappointing to walk into the barber shop and see a tank with guppies not only surviving but also procreating and the proprietor does not have have a clue as to what a WC is and the mechanical & biological filtration media has not been rinsed since the tank was set up.

Yall have indicated that hardness and or salt may be required but I "am just hoping" (and so far so good) that the fry will acclimatize to my very soft tank water.

I have began feeding my home made mixtures and "so far so good".
Should I occasionally be feeding flakes?

Thanks
Ron Jones


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The barber shop is most likely using water from the faucet without any special treatment, that is, water much harder than yours, which is what guppies like.

You are trying to adapt your fish to your water, and you should expect a modicum of success from that, but I really have to stress again that you'll have much MORE success if you just give the guppies what they want. If you think your water is simply too hard, then here's an idea: Mix up a tankful of water which is 1/2 superhard raw water from your unfiltered tap, and 1/2 filtered water. The happy medium you get should be pretty much perfect. Your guppies should be kept by themselves anyway for best results, so don't worry about what your other fish will think. If you do this, your guppies will reward you with superior performance. You paid a bundle for good genes, so why not let those genes get expressed to their fullest potential?

Flakes on occasion, or even once a day, are a good idea. Flakes are fortified with all sorts of nutrients and minerals your staple squid/shrimp diet will be lacking.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

TOS:

I appreciate the input

TR


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## guppybreeder! (Sep 22, 2007)

emc7 said:


> Diana, guppybreeder what is your water's hardness? Support my theory that guppies need either hard water or salt.


im not sure but it is probably pretty mid range. mabe on the harder side...


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## happykitsune (Sep 24, 2007)

jones57742 said:


> Folks:
> 
> I have spent a ton of $'s on guppies ranging from LiveAquaria to "high end show guppy trios".
> 
> ...


Hehe, this just goes to show you that even in the most perfect conditions you can't always keep fish alive. 

I personally think they'll live longer if you keep them in less than perfect conditions. It strengthens they're will to live.  

Sry bout ur fish.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks:

I appreciate everyone's input in this thread.

Things are going good.
The guppies, as well as the loaches, are growing and I have had no losses.

Most of the guppies appear to over 1" with a few over 1.5".

I "never figured" that 1.0" to 1.5" guppies would be breading.

I have observed the serious chasing and two females appear to be pregnant.

Unfortunately the ratio of females to males is approximately 1.5.
I have "not figured out" how I am "going to deal with this yet".

TR


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