# Questions about my 30 gallon set up



## LucyGoosey

Hey guys. I am not new to fish but have not kept any for a very long time. I decided that my xmas gift this year was going to be a 30 gallon tank.

Well I have the tank and all the fixings and I have been doing research and have decided on the following fish:

3-4 female bettas
1-3 dwarf gouramis
6-8 neon tetras
blue lobster
(possibly 2-3 fancy guppies if the gouramis don't seem aggressive at all)

The blue lobster will only be a baby and I will be buying another set up for him once he gets big enough to eat any of the fishies.


So- my water, we are on a well and we filter our drinking water because it is coppery (I believe from the old pipes in the house). We are getting our water tested in a few days at our LFS but we were told to assume our PH would be high. The guy recommended drift wood. Any advice people can give on the well water/copper situation would be great. I know copper is toxic to crustaceans so will have to go through trouble to keep the ph down.


I am cycling my tank for 2 weeks, does that sound good? I was told to put fish food directly into the filter and let her rip. I have heard to use shrimp as well. Not sure what is the best way to go. 

One other question- I read on petsmart.com to only buy 1-3 fish at a time. I was hoping to buy most of them at the same time. So is that a big no no??? 

thank you !!!


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## poolplayerpro3

well i buy 20-30 fish at once when i buy from petsmart but thats also buying feeders with my new fish for my tank. they only recommend 1-3 at a time but you can buy as many as you want. i am on well water too but im not sure about the copper thing. maybe try start right. it conditions tap water and removes chlorine. its like 4-5 bucks at walmart and it works great in my tank.


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## LucyGoosey

Thanks I will try that  

I believe my PH must be okay if my betta is thriving. 

I was wondering, would it be a good idea to put the rocks and plants from my betta tank into the big tank while cycling? Should I put the betta in as well? I don't want him to die so when would be a good time to put him in>


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## poolplayerpro3

well it would be a good idea to have some rocks or sand in the bigger tank. plants are mainly for owner pref if their fake, if their live plants then yes by all means put them in there as they help take toxins out of your water too. but be warned the blue lobster will eat your live plants so you will need plenty of plant food to keep them from dieing. he will also try to eat your fish when they sleep as when fish sleep they become easy targets for inverts like that. i want to put 4 blue lobsters in my 55 gallon but i have all live plants and huge fish so im questioning it because my fish are preditors and eat shrimp as a treat and might think the lobsters are food too


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## bmlbytes

Hey there!

I would go to the pet store and buy one of these to test your water before putting any invert in your tank.
http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=71

The pH is not what kills the inverts, its the fact that copper is a poison to inverts. If the pH is ok, that does not mean that there are safe levels of copper in your water. A blue lobster is an expensive pet to kill in a day.

In the message I have included below, there is an awesome link to cycling an aquarium. It explains each of the different methods for fishless cycling and the positives and negatives of each. If you do the fishless cycling properly, you will be able to add all the fish at once. Keep in mind, cycling can take up to 2 months.

Keep in mind that even young lobsters can catch fish. I have heard of shrimp doing it before. Make sure you have a plan for when you will get the new aquarium before you purchase the lobster. I've seen a lot of people with animals they should not be keeping in their aquariums because they just cant afford something bigger right now. This is really harmful to those animals.

I wouldn't worry about what poolplayerpro3 said about your lobster becoming food. I would more worry about your fish becoming food. The lobster will be too big to be eaten by those fish.

Below is your welcome message. This would usually go in an introduction thread, but you didn't make one, so its in here instead. 
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[FONT=&quot]Dear fellow fish keeper,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the FishForums as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your *fish*)! 

Perhaps you've already heard of this, but I like to remind all the new members. A new tank needs to be cycled. This is a process of converting harmful ammonia and nitrites into less harmful nitrates. An uncycled tank is the number one killer of aquarium fish, and inadvertently happens to almost every beginner aquarist. Before putting any fish in your aquarium, make sure you read this guide to the Nitrogen Cycle. It is a long read, but by the time you are done with it, you know everything you need to know about the Nitrogen cycle.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]








[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]***********Stuff you need for a healthy aquarium************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A tank large enough to house your fish. Many people overstock their tanks, and this can be very harmful to the fish. Make sure you get a tank large enough to hold all of your fish comfortably. Do research to see what the minimum size for your aquarium should be, and remember that it is a minimum size. Any more fish and you need a larger aquarium.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A heater. Most pet fish are tropical fish and need a heater. The only exception in common pet store fish, is the goldfish. The goldfish is a coldwater fish, and does not need a heater. All other fish need a heater to keep healthy (including bettas).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A filter. While most hobbyists keep a filter in their aquarium, many either keep the wrong size filter, or they don’t use one at all. There are many types of filters, and it’s important to know how much water it can push through it. It is recommended you get a filter that can push 8 to 10 gallons per hour for every gallon of water. If you have a 20 gallon tank, you want a filter that can push 160 to 200 gallons of water per hour. It is also important to remember that all fish need a filter. Even bettas and goldfish.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]An air pump. While a “hang on back” filter can provide enough oxygen to an aquarium at most times, it is still important to have an air pump. An air pump with an air stone connected will ensure that your fish have enough oxygen at all times. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lights. While this may not seem important, it is very important. Fish need light, just like other animals. They have sleep schedules and they can produce nutrients from light (humans do the same thing). If you don’t want to deal with turning them on and off every day, set them on a timer. [/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]***********Common aquarium diseases************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Unfortunately our fish get sick, just like every other animal. It is important that you know when your fish is sick, what kind of treatment to offer your fish, and how to prevent diseases in the future. If you suspect your fish is sick, but don’t know what to do, post a thread in the diseases section of the forums.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Common diseases:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ich – Looks like salt covering the body of the fish. This is a protozoan disease. Treat with high temperature water (85F for most tropical fish) and aquarium salt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Fin Rot – Fin edges start to turn brown and fray. Usually occurs first in the caudal fin (tail), but can affect any fin. It looks like the fin is actually rotting away. This is usually a symptom of poor water conditions or injury. This is a bacterial disease. Treat with a 50% water change, antibiotics and aquarium salt. Melafix, Maracyn TC and Maracyn 2 are common antibacterial medications known to treat fin rot.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fungus Infection – Looks like cotton on the body. This is a fungal infection. Treat with antifungal medications and aquarium salt. Pimafix is a well-known antifungal treatment. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dropsy/Bloat – Fish will get very fat, and fins can stick out like a pinecone. Treat with high water temperature (85F for most tropical fish), aquarium salt, and antibiotics. Maracyn TC and Maracyn 2 are common antibacterial medications. [/FONT]


*[FONT=&quot]***********Aquarium Clubs and Societies************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Something that is actually very important in the fish keeping hobby, are the clubs and societies. There are many of them all over the world. If you are near a major city, you most likely have one nearby. This website keeps a good list of clubs, but there are many that it doesn’t have. Doing a quick Google search or asking about clubs in the Forums should find you a good list of clubs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://fins.actwin.com/dir/clubs.php[/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]***********Local Fish Shops************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]Perhaps, just as important as finding a good club to join, is finding a good fish shop. Here is a list of pet stores near you. Also check the yellow pages and visit as many shops in your area, and decide which ones you like the best.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://fins.actwin.com/dir/stores.php [/FONT]

*[FONT=&quot]***********POTM/TOTM************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]We do a “Photo of the Month” and a “Tank of the Month” contest every month. Sometimes there are good prizes to be won. I would like to encourage you to participate in these. It is a good way to show off your fish and aquariums and have fun also.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]POTM - http://www.fishforums.com/forum/potm-photo-month.html[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]TOTM - http://www.fishforums.com/forum/totm-tank-month.html [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rules for both - http://www.fishforums.com/forum/potm-photo-month/28176-potm-totm-rules-how-submit-picture.html [/FONT]

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*[FONT=&quot]***********Links to awesome fish websites************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]http://www.planetcatfish.com/ - Everything you need to know about catfish[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.ebetta.com/ - A cool betta blog[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.aquabid.com/ - eBay, but for fish[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.liveaquaria.com/ - These guys sell fish, but its more useful for doing preliminary research on fish you want to buy.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.drsfostersmith.com/fish-supplies/pr/c/3578 - A great place to buy aquarium equipment[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.fishchannel.com/ - Lots of useful information here. They also print most of the fish magazines out there.[/FONT]


*[FONT=&quot]***********Final Notes************[/FONT]*
[FONT=&quot]I hope all of the above information was useful. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here. Welcome to FishForums.[/FONT]
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## poolplayerpro3

bml i was referring to my tank when i said the lobsters becoming food. i have a 8 inch albino oscar and a 7 inch jack dempsy so i know a small invert would become food in my tank even though i really need some to help keepy my tank clean being my pleco isnt doing his job


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## grogan

I used to keep a blue lobster with fish. I kept it with African ciclids. My general rule witb lobsters is keep them with fish that will fight back. The ciclids and lobster battled constantly but I never had a death. One of my buddies bought the lobster off me and put it with his barbs thinking they would be aggressive enough to defend themselves...wrong. To be perfectly honest about fw lobsters they should really only be kept in tanks with other lobsters. My ciclid experiment was successful but I wouldnt do it again. There is always a chance of losing fish.


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## blindkiller85

poolplayerpro3 said:


> bml i was referring to my tank when i said the lobsters becoming food. i have a 8 inch albino oscar and a 7 inch jack dempsy so i know a small invert would become food in my tank even though i really need some to help keepy my tank clean being my pleco isnt doing his job


Lobsters are meat eaters. They wont just clean algae up, some shrimp do. 

Secondly, you would need a HUGE FW lobster to survive your fish. They will destroy your lobsters and have a delicious meal. I've seen smaller bluegill than 7 inches destroy crawfish that are just as large as any FW lobster that I've ever seen.

As for Lucy, I would suggest heavily that you wait to get a lobster until the tank is setup for it. It will make short work of your neons at night while they are sleeping. And will eat anything they can get a hold of as far as fish.


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## poolplayerpro3

im thinking a lobster over 5 inches should be left alone in my tank being my biggest fish is my oscar at 7 inches right now i just cant afford to pay shipping for the only place i can find that sells them the blue lobsters are 7.99 and the shipping is almost 40 bucks unless your order is over 30.00


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## blindkiller85

I'm thinking it wont be for the lobsters sake, or some of your fish will get tore up a little bit from the lobsters trying to eat them. Either way, it'll be bad. Do it and report back, I love to be proven wrong.

A fish's mouth and bite is stronger than you think. A bass that's 10 inches can easily scale an entire fish that's 4-5 inches and destroy a crawfish. A bluegill can do the same at 5-6 inches, and they have more talent because they can find a way to get FW oysters/clams open to eat them. Granted, those are game fish, but oscars should come from generically the same back round, predators.

And honestly, you really need to consider taking stuff out of your 55g tank instead of adding more. You're already having algae issues and started threads about that, instead you're wanting more bio-load and that means more poo/toxins and then more algae growth. Or just buy like a 220g tank so that your fish will be happy, and don't add lobsters.


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## poolplayerpro3

i was told by a pet store that inverts will eat the fish waist and help keep the tank alot cleaner than algea eaters will. i want to get a bigger tank but i can barely afford the one i have


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## fishtales

poolplayerpro3 said:


> i was told by a pet store that inverts will eat the fish waist and help keep the tank alot cleaner than algea eaters will. i want to get a bigger tank but i can barely afford the one i have


u were told by petsmart. u stated previously u went there. and u said u went to walmart. by no means to those people know. they have to read like a book to just brush some info into every animal they sell/get in contact with. they dont know much at all. maybe some ppl, but u shouldnt rely on a place that just hires any1 and throws them a book and tell them to read it before u get a paycheck.


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## blindkiller85

No fish or living thing with a brain eats fish waste in either FW or SW. What consumes fish waste in a FW tank is something you can't have because of your fish, live plants. 

There are horror stories of what people in walmart, petsmart, and petco have told people. To the literals of putting neons with the fish you have in your tank already. I think even you know that they would become food as soon as you put them in the tank, but they advise to it. With every bit of knowledge and intention that it will work just fine. 

Trust people here, not the big box pet stores. Trust people that have a locally owned store, that the owner is sitting right there. Because he WILL NOT tell you anything wrong because if he does, then it's free fish replacement or money back for you and money out of his pocket.


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## poolplayerpro3

yea i could see that, thing is where i live there is no locally owned pet store its all big companies which sucks. the was carolina pet supply that was locally owned and i used to get all my fish there but they got ran out of business by petsmart...


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## Fishpunk

You can get fish at PetSmart, just be sure to quarantine them for 6 weeks and do a prophylactic treatment for internal parasites and treat anything else that appears. 

I say 6 weeks instead of the usual 4 week quarantine because the camallanus worm nematode takes 6 weeks to start protruding from the fish's vent. Those usually come in livebearers,especially mollies, but since Petsmart runs all their filtration together, it can get into anything.

I bought mollies infested with camallanus a couple years ago, so do not discount them.


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## poolplayerpro3

wow ive never had a problem with any fish ive gotten from petsmart, ive lost almost every fish i got from walmart though, they get sick and die not even 48 hours later


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## blindkiller85

I've worms inside the fish in the tanks at petsmart. Seen fish with bloat, swim bladder, a section of the tank with 20 plecos and 5-6 dead inside that tank for 2 days in a row. Seen the water inside the feeder fish tanks be so cloudy and filled with poo that you cant see the back of it and half the fish you can see inside that tank are dead.


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## emc7

There are a few good individual stores in each chain that will spot sick fish coming in and QT them and treat. One fish manager can make a difference. But you can not count on getting healthy fish from any source. Always, always QT. Most stores and most wholesalers have systems that share the water so what one fish has, all are exposed to. UV sterilizers in line help, but they are not a panacea. They kill "most", but not all disease organisms and need to be on and have fresh bulbs to do any good. They use a lot of electricity and bulbs are expensive, so you can't even count on them being used properly. 

My fish shopping preference in order would be local breeder I know, local breeder I don't know, online breeder with good reputation, local auction, online breeder I don't know, local store, chain store, online wholesale such as live aquaria. The only reason the chain store is before the online wholesaler is I can look at the fish and select healthy-looking ones. I haven't bought fish from a real chain store in years (Petlands are more like LFS) but I do know people who have picked a rare fish up cheap from a chain store that didn't know what it had and got it healthy.

Notice I put breeder before store always. Its not just that I don't like to pay retail, its that fish direct from a breeder are likely to be disease-free or only infected with disease the fish are resistant to.

Adding a few fish every few weeks is a good way to cycle a tank safely. It is, however, not good from a QT point of view. It means you get to sample the fish disease in the chain store water repeatedly instead of just once. The odds of bringing home trouble go up with each trip.


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## Fishpunk

I'm surprised you put auctions lower than online breeder since local auctions tend to be stocked by local breeders you know/dont know.


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## LucyGoosey

Thanks for the info guys!!

I will def get a copper testing kit, thanks very much for that site. I won't be getting any inverts until I know they are going to be okay. I was thinking of just getting some cherry shrimp instead and getting a blue lobster when I have a 20 gallon set up for him. 

Okay so I ended up putting in my betta and three neon tetras I had bought. I put the water and the plants/rocks from the betta tank into the big tank. The neons and betta are doing great so far but this is only day 2.

The betta LOVES all the room. I was worried he would freak out because I have heard they can get weird about too much space but he LOVES it. I sure do love these fish. Wish I could have more in the same tank, I would stock it all with bettas if I could 

Anyways when should I bring my water in to be tested and when can I start adding in more fish? 

I am getting them from a LFS called Big Al's. They are fish only and I think I can count on much better, healthier fish from them. I do not have the means to quarantine any fish before putting them in the tank so what is the best way to do this? Dec 26-Jan 1st they are having huge sales on fish at my LFS, is that too soon to stock up?


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## LucyGoosey

I have my water at 75 degrees, should I up that?


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## Fishpunk

The betta would like it a little warmer. Not sure about the neons, but 75 is a pretty harmless temperature for tropicals.


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## poolplayerpro3

most tropical fish like water at 75-80 degrees usually i keep mine at 78 and my cichlids seem to be happy


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## LucyGoosey

What is an ideal number of neons? I have three right now, one seems to always be on his own and the two stick together. The guy at the store told me I needed odd numbers (I was going to buy 4)

one more question, I want to get a school of rummy nose tetras, would 6 of those and 6 of the neons be good together?


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## Chrispixx

Fishpunk said:


> You can get fish at Pet Smart, just be sure to quarantine them for 6 weeks and do a prophylactic treatment for internal parasites.
> 
> *Pet smart runs all their filtration together, it can get into anything.*


But they also have a BIG UV sterilizer that you probably couldn't afford to pay the electric bill on. So disease is virtually non existent. If something does infect the tanks from a recent shipment it wont be around long.

I have purchased many fish from Pet Smart without quarantining with no problems.


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## Fishpunk

Chrispixx said:


> I have purchased many fish from Pet Smart without quarantining with no problems.


I have had a totally opposite experience. Camallanus worms, costia, and other nasties. No UV sterilizer will kill internal parasites. Stock without quarantine at your own risk.


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## bmlbytes

I have had mixed experiences with Big Box Co. pet stores in the past. From my experience it depends on the individual store. Some stores keep their tanks clean and disease free, and remove all the sick fish. Others can be so bad that they leave dead fish floating in the tank. There was a PetCo back in Minnesota that I would never buy from because of the low quality of fish I got from them. There was a Petsmart a few blocks away from it that I trust very much. 

Even if you trust a pet store (local or chain) it is still a very good idea to take precautions before introducing fish. I do a series of salt and medicated dips of new arrivals before I put them in a quarantine tank. Then I watch them for several days. If there is absolutely no symptoms of illness or injury, then I introduce them to their home. If there is even a single symptom, they stay in the quarantine until I determine they are safe.


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## emc7

My local auctions are mixed. We have fish from stores in them. if I recognize the name, I'll count it as local breeder. But i did get 2 bad bags @ auctions that infected other fish because I bought too many fish to QT at once. Once I put 2 sets of new fish together and the one's disease killed the other. Once I put "some more' of a fish I already had in with my old fish and all died. Always QT. If you don't have space, wait. I almost never get fish shipped to me, but I never buy from PetSmart. My local one isn't horrible, but its not great either. I go in there for prescription cat food and see sick fish. Systems are only as good as the people that use them and that chain is not good with training or hiring good fish people. The best fiskkeeper i know working at one is a dog groomer. The train like crazy on proper pooch nutrition, but fish are not their priority. My list is kinda rough. There is one wholesalers whose fish I drop right into my tanks because I know how he treats all fish that come into his system (a complex system of dips, QT, medicated water and food before they share water with his fish)


UV should work, at least on water-borne illness. But I don't trust people to use them right and do maintenance things like cleaning the lines and replacing the bulbs. And I don't trust fish disease to stay the same. if something kills 99.9% of bacteria, you can bet the bacteria that survive are going to start reproducing faster.


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## emc7

More neons. Don't keep less than 6 of any tetra. 9 would be better. Cherry shrimp are great. Get a bunch of flat rocks for them to hide under. I would expect betta to hunt them down and eat them. 

I order online from Big Als. They are great for dry goods. I don't have any stores near me. I've heard both that 'they are great' and 'they are infected with a mysterious wasting disease that is drug resistant'. Most likely it way only one place with sick fish. When you only have 1 tank, I realize QT is about impossible. But be aware and look for signs of illness for about 6-8 weeks after the last new addition.


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