# Not ick after all?



## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

I have been treating my tank with malachite green/formalin. I used malachite green by itself (2 months ago), switched to Kordon Ick Attack (a waste of money), then back to the heavier ick treatment- a combo of the two 'best' ick chemicals. I have done 3 consecutive treatments at half strength to accomodate for the sensitive fish. Between each treatment I vacuum the gravel thoroughly and preform a pwc...

Instead of improving, the problem is becoming far worse. Two glass fish are inflicted, along with the pleco and silver dollar. Four fish are diseased noticeably. One of the glass fish is probably beyond saving and should be euthanized. Other fish appear to be missing scales, but otherwise are in good health.

QuICK Cure isn't working, which makes me wonder if I misdiagnosed the disease. I do not know what to do now, as I cannot come to a conclusive diagnosis. The symptoms vary, which may mean comorbid diseases are present... 

There are signs of Velvet disease (seen using a flashlight), but other symptoms that are visable seem more consistent with other parasites. I saw an elongated white 'object' on the silver dollar. It was shaped differently and considerably larger than the white spots (dusting) on the glass cats and pleco. Whatever it was, it detached from the fish. It is missing today.

I have some pictures of the different things I have noticed. The pictures aren't of the best quality, but they show differences in disease between the fish. 

I hope someone can give me advice as to what would be the best treatment. As of current, I am leaving the lights off and doing a pwc. Today was the last day for the 3rd QuICK Cure treatment. Methylene Blue can be used on the Silver Dollar as a bath, but I am leery to use it on the cats. Copper sulfate is the suggested treatment of Velvet, but I think it would be too harsh on the scaleless fish and tetras.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Get out your test kits, and give us all the readings. With this many fish appearing to have different issues, I would say that there is something bad in the water. 

This is what ich looks like:









Velvet looks more like the fish's color got dull:








Velvet is cured with the same treatments as ich, and is the same type of disease as ich (protozoan parasite)

Your pictures are too difficult to see what is going on with your fish. I hope my pictures can help you determine what is wrong with your fish.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

get some aquarisol....made by API...
first.....do a 50% water change every day for the next 4 days....then raise the temp to 84-86 F.......then treat with the aquarisol..
maintain treatment as per instructions...you might also want to keep on hand some "lifebearer"...also made by API.....


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## Ladayen (Jun 20, 2011)

Too many medications at once. I fear you have made the problem worse. 

I would do what Ioha suggested and do the water changes to clean out the water, then use the one medicine as per instructions. This normally means 1 week after all visible signs are gone.

Just to clarify... you haven't added any carbon to your filter recently have you? In the last 6 weeks or so?


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## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

The second fish pictured is similar to the dusting on the pleco and glass cat. The glass cat is milky in color. The picture isn’t completely focused, but the ‘pixelated’ appearance of the glass cat is actually how it looks. The best possible image that is comparable to its appearance is snow on an object. When you look closely, you can see individual flakes. If you are further away, it looks fluffy and soft (or moldy in this case). 

The dusting isn’t as extreme on the pleco. The large white patches seen in the picture were present when I got him. The white patches are actually old scars. The color of the scars was not as prominent, but it was obvious that the tissue was severely damaged at a prior time. I think that whatever is causing the problem is attacking the previously damaged skin, as it is more susceptible to disease. As a result, the scarred tissue is turning extremely white. 

Aquarium size: 55 gal
Temperature: 79 
PH- 7.6 (consistently)
Ammonia- between 0-.25ppm, which is slightly elevated
Nitrite- 0
Nitrate- 40 ppm 

I have not done a water change yet. However, the nitrates seem too high. I changed out 9 gallons of water four days ago, so it shouldn’t be at 40 ppm. There is nitrate in my tap @ 5 ppm. My nitrate readings are generally at 20 ppm prior to weekly water changes. After, the reading is between 5 and 10 ppm. 

I have not seen any nitrite spikes, whatsoever. I have had a problem with slightly elevated levels of ammonia; the levels have never exceeded .25 ppm. I ruled out everything I could think of as a possible source of ammonia. I tested the tap for ammonia. I even used two different ammonia tests to make sure the one I use weekly is accurate (which it is). After exhausting all possible causes that I could think of, there is one yet to be ruled out. I was making the mistake of cleaning the filter pads every week. I did not realize I was cleaning the pads too often, which can cause damage to the biological filter. Other than playing the waiting game to see if this is the cause, I absolutely have no clue as to what else could be the culprit. Also, I do not understand how there can be ammonia readings, without any nitrite spikes.


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## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

I am concerned with adding too many chemicals as well... I will do large water changes before beginning Aquarisol. I will raise the temperature again. I had it at 84 at one point, but lowered it. I honestly thought the problem was clearing.

@ Ladayen: I have added carbon. In fact, I have done this between each treatment. I would do a pwc after 3 full days, add the carbon back, remove it the next day, and then retreat. I feared that the chemicals would build up to toxic levels from continuous use. Hindsight: dumb move. It probably hindered treatment slightly. Replacing the carbon for 8-10 hours in between treatments shouldn't have caused it to spread like wildfire though.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Fluffy? Like what is on the head of this fish?


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## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

No, not quite like fungus, but similar. It's fluffy looking because the white 'specks' are concentrated in certain areas. The fish looks like it is covered in snow flakes. The specks are not as 'cottony' as the appearance of fungal infections, but it doesn't look as 'solid' as the appearance of salt (or what ick) looks like- it's somewhere in between. None of the glass fish looked like this a week ago...


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## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

Will Aquarisol treat columnaris too?

When I got the pleco, he had the white patches on his skin. I have always assumed it was scar tissue. What if I was wrong? What if the pleco has been carrying columnaris this whole time, but the infection was low level? (assuming this is possible)

I have been treating ich aggressively, yet it hasn't seemed to work... Or maybe it has and I am dealing with a secondary infection. Is it possible that the white spots on the glass cat are actually columnaris as they are somewhat 'snowy' in appearance? The SD has larger white spots. Can these spots be the result of missing scales where the ich was once attached? The SD also has injury to its mouth...


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

2 of the meds that i always try to keep on hand are "Aquarisol " and "lifebearer"..i like them because they are well proven and each treats a number of diseases without discoloring the water...but i really wouldn't suggest them for columnaris...
here is a link that should help.......

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/columnaris_disease.php


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## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

Thanks lohachata, I appreciate your help. I have been trying to find Aquarisol. Stores around my area don't seem to carry it... Is Mardel coppersafe similar to Aquarisol? I will look for Livebearer as well. If all else fails, I can purchase these products from the internet to have on hand. 

Yesterday, I tried to find a local vet that cares for fish. The closest one is in Cleveland, which is impractical. It's too far to transport sick fish and it would take too long to get lab results.

Since I can't find a vet, I am going to take a gamble. I will treat for columnaris and watch for ich/velvet. I will buy Aquarisol to have on hand. If necessary, I will switch treatments. Worst case senario, I will euthanize fish that become too bad in order to save the rest. I will never add a fish again without quarantining first!

I did a 24% wc yesterday and added carbon. Water parameters are good... Hopefully, I am making the right call.

Aquarisol is a discontinued product, so I won't be getting it! Sargents bought a lot of AP products, this being one... If you purchase it, watch the expiration date.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> I will never add a fish again without quarantining first!


every one of us has made this vow at some point. I think your plan is sound. IME columnaris kills faster than ich, so if you do it the other way round and get it wrong, you'll lose all your fish. You can get "ich scars" and damaged/missing scales, extra slime, something that looks like peeling skin. It is very hard to tell what you have and you can have multiple nasties at once as they are all opportunistically lying in wait for fish to get stressed.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i have about 6 pints of aquarisol and 2 pints of lifebearer on hand...i was going to put it in 2 oz bottles and sell it but decided not to because i am unable to compete with larger companies regarding prices..but then again maybe i should hoard the stuff....i have used 10 year old aquarisol with perfect results...

who is the vet in cleveland ??


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Discordia said:


> Thanks lohachata, I appreciate your help. I have been trying to find Aquarisol. Stores around my area don't seem to carry it... Is Mardel coppersafe similar to Aquarisol? I will look for Livebearer as well. If all else fails, I can purchase these products from the internet to have on hand.
> 
> Yesterday, I tried to find a local vet that cares for fish. The closest one is in Cleveland, which is impractical. It's too far to transport sick fish and it would take too long to get lab results.
> 
> ...


Aquari-sol is not completely discontinued. I just bought it a few days ago at a local pet shop. 

Aquari-sol is a copper treatment. Coppersafe is the same medication, but it is diluted. With Aquari-sol, you add a 12 drops per 10 gallons. With Coppersafe, you add 5 ml per 10 gallons. That is about 10 times more liquid to add if you use Coppersafe.

Take out the carbon before adding a copper treatment. It will absorb the medication. 

Also, when you are looking for it, the medication is called Life Bearer, not Livebearer. 

Good luck!


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## Discordia (Nov 16, 2011)

Thanks, I found a place that carries Life Bearer, but didn't have the money to get it at the time. I plan on getting some on pay day. 

I finally figured out the source of my problem... The QuICK Cure was keeping this parasite at bay, but the secondary infections threw me off track. I could not find enough marycn to treat my tank, so I decided to use Melafix until I could get it. The Melafix cleared up the glass cats within the matter of a day. The pleco was still having major issues though.

I was home at the right time to see a major part of the problem: clumps of white spots that looked like egg sacs on the pleco. Within an hour of noticing them, the egg sacs became string-like and detached from his skin. The prior night, I could have SWORN I saw very small brown threadlike worms on his head, but wasn't sure. I spent a lot of time observing the pleco and doing reasearch for a few days... Yesterday, I did a water change and decided to use a flashlight to watch what the vacuum sucked up. There were thousands of white specks coming out of the gravel that looked like head lice nits...

The vacuum then sucked up the first brown flat-worm. I was so grossed out! I kept two of the worms in a test tube for identification. Surprisingly, they are still alive. 

I am using Parasite Clear by jungle because that is the only medication I could get my hands on. The worm's host is the pleco. What I thought was scar tissue on the pleco is actually excess slime coat. He's been carrying this infection ever since I introduced him to the aquarium. The sign of sickness was there, I just didn't know it. 

Now, I have to worry about ammonia and nitrite spikes. The medicine will kill the worms and snails. If I have a high spike, should I do a pwc and add the amount of medicine removed from the water back to it? 

Is there a bath I can use on the pleco to help rid him of the internal worms? I fear that this parasite may be hard to get rid of...


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