# Ich Outbreak



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

Great, I got my first ich outbreak, ever. I picked up some cardinal tetras from my LFS, and about 4 days later all my fish have the nice white spots of sand.... I did a partial water change, cleaned gravel, added a little bit of salt and added a dose of malachite green. I'm going to read the great ich guide here in a moment. The fish I have infected are: 3 cardinal tetras, 1 skunk cory, 1 german blue ram and 1 clown pleco. My 2 albino corys show no sign of it yet....

The german blue ram was going to be moved soon too, I'm pretty bummed now.


----------



## StripesAndFins (Dec 31, 2008)

i heard raising the temp to about 80 degrees F works well in getting rid of ich. i dont know much about anything else. hope you can save your fish


----------



## justintrask (Jun 29, 2008)

I am in the process of getting rid of ich. I raised my temperature to 85. threw in the proper amount of aquarium salt (1tbsp/5G i think? i just threw in a handful), and have been doing full doses of rid ich+ twice daily daily combined with 40% water changes. ich went away in about 2 days, and just continue treatment for a few days after every sgn of ich is gone.


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

I just read the ich guide which had a lot of good info... I can't raise my temp on the tank because there is no thermostat, but I did do a water change, remove the carbon, added some aquarium salt and dosed with malachite green and formalin... The heater keeps the tank at around 75 degrees, so we'll wait and see I guess....


----------



## justintrask (Jun 29, 2008)

its going to be really tough at that temperature. will take a lot longer. ich speeds up its lifecycle at higher temperatures, and really destroys the fish at lower temps.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I agree. With lower temp, I would treat for 2 weeks with big water changes at intervals to keep the med conc. from getting too high. What your using is the meds in QuickCure and that has cured ich for me in the past. I don't believe any ich cure can be complete in 3 day like it says on the package, though. I have also heard of quickcure-resistant ich coming out of stores that use a low-dose in their system all the time. So if you don't see improvement in a few days, do a large water change and try a different ich med.


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

I'll def do that, I originally bought the quick cure for the formalin for a fungus issue with my girlfriend's betta, so I didn't believe the "3 day cure" claim... Especially after reading about ich and it's life cycle. I think I may hunt for another heater today as well, or see if I can borrow one from my LFS.

What interval should I do the water change, like after 5 days or so? I don't want to drop the medication when the protozoa is free swimming...

Unfortunately, the LFS has a ridiculous ich outbreak, so I guess I'm gonna setup a 10gal quarantine tank....

Thank you all so much for the help, I'll keep everyone posted.


----------



## gil_ong (Apr 15, 2008)

what i learnt from my battle with ich is, "treat the water, not the fish."


----------



## AndyTrask (Jan 12, 2009)

If you're still thinking about moving the blue ram out, ich need not be an impediment. Unless the fish is already severely stressed, you could potentially put it through a salt dip to kill off the parasites and then move to quarantine until you're sure the salt dip was successful.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

That sounds about right. If you keep adding w/o taking any out, the formalin can overdose


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

FlatLine said:


> and added a dose of malachite green.


FL:

Based upon the descriptions in your post I believe *that this will work*.

This is just me but I would not have done the* malachite green thing*.

This compound can be substantially removed from your tank via activated carbon filtration.

TR

BTW: please note that the last year or so I have not observed any ich on a fish and I believe that this condition is due to a having a ton of biological and mechanical filtration media in my filtration process as well as appropriate WC's.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

After you change water, immediately add more meds. Ron, I've never had ich in the same tank twice. After a successful treatment your tanks should stay ich-free until you add new fish/plants/inverts that haven't been quarantined.


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

That's what what my problem is, the recent cardinal I purchased, brought ich into one of my tanks. I am starting a 10gal just to quarantine new arrivals at this point. 

Knowing that about the formalin, I will be doing a 50% water change tomorrow before adding more meds, so far they are on the second dose.


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> FL:
> 
> Based upon the descriptions in your post I believe *that this will work*.
> 
> ...


I do like this idea, and from what I read, this is a much more "natural" way of doing things. I also feel it is better for the fish. As soon as I can get a heater with an adjustable thermostat in there, I will do this.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

malachite green, methylene blue, acryflavin, and a couple other dyes were the first fish meds. People found out they killed stuff when they were staining samples on microscope slides for a better view of the pathogens. The good thing about the dyes is that you can judge the dose visually. You know after awhile, "the right color". Too dark is overdose, too light won't work. They come out quickly with fresh carbon and you can tell when they are gone by the lack of color. The bad thing is they stain everything (rocks, tank sealant, bucket, hands). They can kill your plants and algae by blocking the light. And some have other risks. Tetras tend to be sensitive to meds and often a half-dose is recommended. Here it is


> Fine scaled or naked fishes (small tetras, catfishes, knifefishes, mormyrids....) should only be administered with half doses... and carefully observed while under treatment for signs of poisoning.


 Formalyn is nasty stuff, too.

Dyes are usually effective against ich and fungus. They are easy to dose (quickcure is 1 drop/gallon). 

You always have to weigh the risks of a treatment against the desired benefit. IMO, a good chemical med is worth the risk when fish are dying. 

And quickcure could be had at walmart at 2 am. But my local walmart started closing at midnight. Sigh, I'll have to stockpile meds. 

The "salt cure" does work, I've heard of lots of successful treatment. But I have also heard of salt-resistant ich, so alway judge a treatment by whether the fish are improving. If you try the "salt cure", do follow specific instructions. I've heard of people who heard "salt and heat", cranked up the temp and went to work and bought salt on the way home and came home to fish that were worse because ich speeds up in warmer water. 

You can go hotter with salt, because alot of meds reduce the oxygen in the water. In fact an extra air-stone when medicating is usually a good idea. But some meds give you foamy water. Just make sure the med is out before you crank it too high. Use fresh carbon.

As to what is better for fish, it is another "it depends". Cichlids tolerate salt well, but some fish don't. So look up your fish's salt-tolerance before you try a salt cure. And look for warnings about certain fish on med bottles and websites. Some fish can't stand heat. 

I don't automatically equate natural with good. Ich killing your fish is perfectly natural.


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Folks:

em has done more research in general than I as well as has more hands on experience than I but I believe that the presentation of other views is appropriate.



emc7 said:


> After you change water, immediately add more meds.


Folks: My theory in general is to not put anything in the tank water which is not absolutely necessary and then in what I estimate to be in a hierarchy of possible adverse effects to fish and plants.

If you believe that salt and heat will fix a problem then try it but after a couple of days with no improvement *then*

it is time to start adding MelaFix and/or PimaFix as appropriate (and note that these products are not medications but are curatives) while continuing the salt treatment.




emc7 said:


> Ron, I've never had ich in the same tank twice. After a successful treatment your tanks should stay ich-free until you add new fish/plants/inverts that haven't been quarantined.


When I first observed ich "up close and personal" it was manifested on a large DD Black Angel.

I had read in passing of ich in threads but I really got into researching ich as well as protozoan disease in general.

I cannot now easily find the supporting documentation as this research was occurring several years ago but there is some support (although minimal and has really been attacked) that a very minor percentage of Trophonts will go "dormant" in a substrate.

In poor water conditions* at 78F or above these Trophonts will become active producing Trophozoites and the ich cycle commences again.

*As best as I remember I could not "get a good handle on" poor water conditions but I believed the adverse conditions included high concentrations of metals, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates.

Obviously in these water conditions the fish are not happy campers, are very stressed out, are in poor health, and are unable to form impermeable encapsulation cysts and as such the rate of the ich cycle is much greater than in typical water conditions.

TR


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> After you change water, immediately add more meds


was in response to this


> I don't want to drop the medication when the protozoa is free swimming...


When treating, you don't give the ich a "holiday". You keep it up or you get med-resistant ich. I get your point, Ron, heat and salt is a valid option. But since FL started on meds I would advise him to keep it up long enough (at least 10 days) to have a decent shot at wiping all the ich out. 

If the fish are getting worse or showing signs of bad reaction to meds, then I would suggest a big water change, fresh carbon to get all the old med out, and then try a different method. But if the fish are improving, I would keep up with the first thing. Its like taking all your antibiotic when you have strep.


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> But if the fish are improving, I would keep up with the first thing. Its like taking all your antibiotic when you have strep.


FL: I agree with em here at this point except that if you started what I had recommended when you read my post then please continue with my recommendation but if you are now three or four days into medication then please listen to em's words.


em and folks:

My previous post was principally addressing



emc7 said:


> Ron, I've never had ich in the same tank twice. After a successful treatment your tanks should stay ich-free until you add new fish/plants/inverts that haven't been quarantined.


Right, wrong or indifferent I believe that "somehow" these protozoans can go dormant in the substrate of a tank, become active in "some conditions [Type I let's say]" of the tank, and manifest ich when others conditions [Type II] in the tank are present.

The question then is how did my fish "come down with" the second infestation?

Well! with respect to the Type I conditions I do not have a clue.

With respect to the Type II conditions in my previous post I stated "poor water conditions" and cited an example but the example was very liberal as during one of my experiments I was way overfeeding but only had detectable concentrations of ammonia and nitrites. This was when my ich manifested the second time.

TR


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, I've raised the temp of the tank, so I'll keep ya posted.


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow, the salt/tank temp seems to be an excellent method, this is the second day since the cardinals look fine, and the ram only has one spot on him... I'll keep this up for a while longer, I did a water change this morning.


----------



## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

When I did this in my tank I kept it raised for 2 weeks post clearing of the outbreak. I also kept salt in the tank for this time. After 2 weeks of a clean tank I slowly reduced temperature and then stopped adding salt. Normal water changes will get rid of the salt so you don't have to do anything special to do that.


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

FlatLine said:


> I'll keep this up for a while longer, I did a water change this morning.


Fl: Seven days please* and then back down slowly per my previous post.

*The Reader's Digest version is that a static form of the ich protozoa is still present in your substrate or other areas of your tank and will generate the water borne form of the protozoa for up to seven days after you no longer observe the ich cysts on your fish.

Also, if you have not done so, please add Melafix to the tank in order to assist the fish in the healing of the cyst sites.

TR


----------



## FlatLine (Dec 30, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Fl: Seven days please* and then back down slowly per my previous post.
> 
> *The Reader's Digest version is that a static form of the ich protozoa is still present in your substrate or other areas of your tank and will generate the water borne form of the protozoa for up to seven days after you no longer observe the ich cysts on your fish.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, I hadn't intended on differing much from what you posted. The whole reason I used your method was because of the research I had done on ich itself. The method seemed very consistent with treating the water, not the fish... 

The only thing I am greatly concerned with is that I have cardinal tetras and corydoras in the tank who were infected, and they do not cope well with high salinity values...


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

FlatLine said:


> Don't worry, I hadn't intended on differing much from what you posted. The whole reason I used your method was because of the research I had done on ich itself. The method seemed very consistent with treating the water, not the fish...
> 
> The only thing I am greatly concerned with is that I have cardinal tetras and corydoras in the tank who were infected, and they do not cope well with high salinity values...


Fl:

Although Neons are sensitive in some respects I had some in my tank the last time that I did this as well Sterbai Cory's.

Please do not deviate!

But having said that you apparently have done a bunch of research and if you deviate please post your experience, whether good or bad, in order that the Forum members (especially Ron) can learn from your experience without gaining hard earned personal experience.

TR


----------

