# Plant Nebie, Lots-o-Questions Long Post



## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

I've been keeping fish for a long time. I had a childhood aquarium (29 gallon) done all wrong, but worked, sort of, for 10 years, then I stopped keeping fish for 6 or so years, and I have now had my 55 gallon up and running correctly for 2 years.

I've always wanted to do aquatic plants, but was afraid of spending $5 per plant and killing them and the fish in the learning process. I've been reading up on planted tanks for the last couple of years and I'm about to switch everything over to a 90 gallon tank and want to do my homework so I can do it right for aquatic plants and fish.

Here are my plans...
I want to have a constant flow of fresh water coming into the tank, and a constant flow of old water going out. I plan on using some inline under sink filters to achieve this. I will plumb in a line from my water well (I do have city water, but there is also a water well on site), then run it through a 1-5 micron pre filter (it is also filtered before the jet pump), then an active carbon filter, and then having it dump into my hang-on-the-tank power filter (the power filter will not be plugged in/running). I plan to use a gravity drain (overflow box) which will be plumbed into my nearest sink drain. I plan on having a float switch, which will cut off flow if the drain gets clogged up to prevent the incoming water from overflowing the tank and will start power to the hang-on-the-tank filter(s). I can do an RO/DI unit and then add the correct chemical mix in everyday if that would be better for the fish or plants. I do not currently have a water test on the water well or the city water at our new house (I plan on having samples of both professionally tested before I start keeping fish in that water, so I know were I stand with both supplies).

I've read that the active carbon filter will not be good for planted tanks? I really don't need it on the system coming from the water well, but if it's ok to use I will probably have one (it's commonly used to dechlorinating city water).

I've read the list of beginner plants and will start looking at my LFSs for the best prices and maybe getting one of the shop owners to help plan some future plant and fish exchanges (for when plants or fish get too big, or when I want to rearrange things a bit). Does anyone else have arrangements like this? How does it work? Would this arrangement be necessary for a 90 gallon planted tank (am I going to come across plants or fish that are too large for the tank)?

I currently work in the lighting industry and have access to several sources for different lighting needs. I bought four T5HO bulbs (two @ 4500K and two @ 6000K, which currently 6000K is the highest T5 lamp offered) to use on the 90 gallon. The watts per gallon don't apply to this lamps as they are a ton more efficient than a T8 and almost produce 5 times the light output (a T8 is in the 20-30 watt 1200-1500 lumens range and the T5HO, high output, is 54 watt 5000 lumens range.). So technically the watt per gallon ratio will be 2.4wpg, but the actual amount of light getting to the tank will be more than a 2.4wpg T8 setup. Should I add, take away or change up the lighting in any way? I could add a T8 plant light 10,000K if necessary. I plan on running timers on the lights, so that they are on at least 12 hours per day. Now if my tank is near a window, can I substitute some of the lighting time with direct sunlight exposure (say from 8:30 am to 12:30 pm my tank will have access to direct sunlight if I open the shades), or is this an algae no-no (I have large algae eaters)?

BTW… the T5HO lights are not offered to the general public through Home Depot, Wal-Mart, or LOWE’S, which normal T5s are starting to in the smaller lengths. My lighting system was $90 with replacement tubes at $10 and replacement ballasts at $20 (one ballast controls 2 tubes). I plan on making my own reflectors out of sheet metal. The current T5HO lamp life is rated at 20,000 hours (which a T8 is also 20,000 hours), so I’m looking into the option of dimming the tubes down a bit (dimming a light by 20% will double its life), which should be fine with the current higher output anyway.

That said, I do plan on running a CO2 injection. I will have a CO2 bottle, regulator, needle valve, CO2 reactor (homemade), and try to maintaining 15-20ppm. I do plan on having a medium to heavy plant population, so do I need to maintain more ppm CO2 levels? Do some plants require low ppm and some high ppm, or is it all generally the same?

I plan on using some local river substrate for the tank, but I plan on storing it in a 5-gallon bucket filled with RO water with regular water tests before I use it. Would this be necessary to test for high amounts of nitrites/nitrates and to leech out any calcium (I know seashells and driftwood need to be leeched almost 12 months before they're ready for a freshwater tank, or you run the risk of adding bad chemicals to a freshwater tank)?

I plan on building a styrofoam/concrete 3D background for the 90 and will leech it out as described in the how-to-build articles I've read. Is there anything I need to be aware of before attempting this relating to the plants?

The main questions I have deals with starting a planted tank after you've already got a fish only tank up and running. How do you plant cycle a tank when there are already fish? Will the stable fish only tank be a great location for new plants (for a plant beginner)? Will changing the chemicals for the plant growth hurt the fish (other than stress, which is bad anyway)?

I plan on letting my mom have the 55 gallon as it currently sits (stable for 2 years), then setting up the 90 gallon (stealing water, bacteria media, and gravel from the 55), getting all the plants introduced, cycling the tank for fish, then transferring the fish from the 55 to the 90 (unless she wants those guys in which case I will get some new friends as my 2yo daughter calls them), and then getting another 55-75 gallon later on down the road (using the same setup steps as the 90. Should I fish cycle first (using established water, bacteria and gravel will greatly reduce the fish cycle if not bypass it all together), or plant cycle first (plant cycle meaning getting the plants up and growing happily first then adding in fish)?

Sorry for such a long post. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated (even welcome criticism).


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## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

Oh and, I'm having trouble getting the e-mail notifications (I'm sure it's some sort of spam blocker or something), so don't give up on me if it takes a few days for me to reply.

e-mail me anytime... 
andrew_christina (at) sbcglobal (dot) net


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Wow!!, long post but you are asking all the right questions. I'll go with what I remember so my post may be a bit jumbled as I'll be going back and forth.

First T5 lamps come in higher than 6000K. (10K is available.)
http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/power_novabulbs.htm


You will want 30ppm for you co2 levels.

With a planted tank, you dont want a constant supply of freshwater. You need the waste fish produce for plant food. Nitrogen, phosphorous, and Potassium are the 3 main nutrients for plants. Its perferred to use NO3 (nitrate) for plants vs ammonia or nitrite as algae (microphytes) cannot readily use this form but love ammonia (NH3). Carbon is not needed either.


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## Schism (Jul 20, 2006)

Just a quick question, what are u going to be using for ferts?


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## Ownager2004 (Apr 4, 2005)

Depending on your water you still may be able to use your constant freshwater idea... im just not sure why its necessary? What are the benefits of that for a planted tank?


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## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

The constant fresh water will replace the exact same amount of water over the exact same time frame as my 20% weekly water changes, but in a continuous manner instead of all at once. I'm going to be putting in 2.5 gallons per day and draining 2.5 gallons per day. I plan on trying different setups to determine the best system for the tank. I'll try having the incoming water near the drain, then somewhat away from the drain, then near the top, then near the bottom until I find a constant good level of trace elements and a good level of bad elements (nitrite, nitrates, iron, etc.).

I'm not exactly sure what fertilizer, to use, what amounts, etc. I'm still reading up on that subject.

Thanks for the lighting link, I didn't know they were out there!!! They're a little high priced, but not by much. And thanks for the 30ppm CO2 info.

Do I need to go with 10,000K, or all 6000K or 4700K or some mix. Add more or less lights?

Thanks to all for the help and direction!


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

The cwc system is still a bad idea. You will be removing what you are trying to put in the tank. Fish only, great idea, planted tank, bad idea.


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## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

I dunno, I think I can achieve a happy balance. Maybe I have to reduce my flow rate, or maybe I have to adjust the location of the plants in regards to the inlet and drainage, but I think I can make it work.

I'll do a write up while I experiment and keep good water test results to see what happens (all the while, keeping a good backup plan in place to not stress out the fish. Probably keeping the hank-on-tank filters in place as long as they don't interfere with the test results too much).


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## racialfish (Jul 30, 2006)

The t-5's will probably give off an output closer to 3wpg or more.


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## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

The T5HOs I am currently using are putting off 2.5 times the light output of a normal T8 of the same length.

With four T5HOs I'm looking at 20,000 lumens where four T8 lights would be less than 8,000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_(unit) 

The actually wattage per gallon calculations do not work for a T5HO lamp since it puts out so much more light, but the actual wattage/gallons would be 216w/90gal. The equivalent light output in T8 would be 320w/90gal.

This means, I am looking at the equivalent T8 (which is what most aquarium lights are and what the watt/gall calculation is taken from) of 3.5555w/g even though I only have 2.4w/g.

And if I put in a few T5 of high K rating, it'll only go up from there. Two T5HO at 4500K, two at 6000k and two T5HOs at 10,000K would be a lot of light. I might need to get some fish sized sunglasses. 
(actual would be 3.6w/g would equal 5.3333w/g of T8)


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## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

Simpte said:


> With a planted tank, you dont want a constant supply of freshwater. You need the waste fish produce for plant food. Nitrogen, phosphorous, and Potassium are the 3 main nutrients for plants. Its perferred to use NO3 (nitrate) for plants vs ammonia or nitrite as algae (microphytes) cannot readily use this form but love ammonia (NH3). Carbon is not needed either.


I meant to ask... If a constant flow of water is bad, how can the plants grow in a natural river? Maybe a big fish population?


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

AndrewH said:


> I meant to ask... If a constant flow of water is bad, how can the plants grow in a natural river? Maybe a big fish population?


Plenty of nutrients in a larger body of water. We cannot hope to simulate this. And if you notice, not all plants grow in every river


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## AndrewH (Mar 17, 2005)

Thanks for your input.


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