# Hybrids...good or bad?



## clothahump (Feb 22, 2005)

Removed, I did not start this thread.
Clothahump: I split this thread off from the Panda corie thread :wink:


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## Teelie (Feb 13, 2005)

If you want them to interbreed, let them. Despite the above post, who apparently doesn't know much about crossbreeding in nature, it happens alot. Usually the eggs are infertile or the offspring are anyways so the "new" species is a limited one.

So long as the offspring are not introduced into the wild or physically deformed, I can't see why it matters.


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## clothahump (Feb 22, 2005)

*Re: Panda Cories*

I bow to your superior knowledge on the genetics of fish, could you explain where and which species interbreed in Nature? I would be very interested in you writing this up as an article for my website.


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## Teelie (Feb 13, 2005)

I don't have time for superiority complexes like yours so I'll suggest you learn how to google.

But since you need someone to do your work for you, I will say this, if you knew anything of genetic history, you'd realize many animals, fish included, die out in part because they interbreed and become a new species or fold into an existing one.

There is also the reverse where a species diversifies when one environment splits into two environments and becomes two or more species. Basic college biology courses teach this kind of thing.

Now explain just what the dangers of interbreeding _tank raised hobbyist fish_ are and why it's this great evil? Never heard of a goldfish? Those are a mix breeding of carp species from centuries ago and then further bred into a dozen or more body shapes. No outcry for that "frankenfish" to my knowledge..


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## Fishnut2 (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Panda Cories*

Please keep things under control  :wink:  I think this is an interesting topic, and I might split it off into another thread if we get a few more opinions. Personally... I keep all single species tanks. As a breeder, I want to avoid hybrids at any cost. I will mix species during grow out...but when it's time to breed, I want to keep my lines pure! Any other opinions  :?:


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## clothahump (Feb 22, 2005)

*Re: Panda Cories*



> I don't have time for superiority complexes like yours so I'll suggest you learn how to google.


I think I have the hang of this now, so if I use Google it will answer the question of why you think it is OK to hybridise fish?
I run my breeding program the same as Fishnut2, keep the species pure at all costs, hybrids are not wanted in the hobby and do not occur in the wild, if however you know of a species that naturally hybridises with another species please let us know.


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## Teelie (Feb 13, 2005)

Still haven't been given an explanation _why_ they are bad in the hobby. Just because you don't want hybrids, you don't want anyone else to have hytbrids either is pretty much the sum of your arguement to me.

Anyhow, I'll abide Fishnut2 and let it drop. I doubt you'll give a clear answer why they're so dangerous when you ignore the question.


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## clothahump (Feb 22, 2005)

I would hate to see them interbred as the way things are going in the Amazonian region the natural habitat will all be destroyed so we can eat Beef Burgers, Soy and Sugar, that will leave us the hobbysists with ensuring the species survive until such time they can be released back into the wild somehow.
If we allow Hybrids to become part of this we destroy species not create them, that job is best left to nature.
Could you let me know the species of fish that naturally hybridise in the wild?


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Panda Cories*

ok, so interbreeding would be the opposite of inbreeding? inbreeding is usually used for isolating certain traits, but has less genetic deiversity causing many problems. a species would be a group of animals that could breed and produce fertile offspring, are interbred corys fertile? or are they like donkeys? are the different human races are subspecies or **** sapien sapiens? whats wrong with hybrids, they would have more genetic diversity. subspecies are still all the same species, i used my "google skills" to look up what it meant. "(biology) a taxonomic group that is a division of a species; usually arises as a consequence of geographical isolation within a species."
so they are on their way to becoming a new species. i guess it would be unnatural to interbreed them.... but are these subspecies found in the amazon and surrounding tributataries? for as long as the subspecies are inbreeding with pure bred corys in aquariums they are becoming less like the natural ones in south america.

kinda like the different kinds of dogs, they all came from wild dogs/wolves.


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## Teelie (Feb 13, 2005)

Tell me, do all the fish that are interbred no longer exist now that their offspring are around? We have blood parrots but sevrums and red devils aren't gone. Why would the same happen to cories or other fish? Like I said before, most of the time the eggs or offspring are sterile anyways so there is no reproduction of that hybrid. Pretty much ensures there will never be an extinction of that species so long as there are die hard breeders out there either. 

Which fish interbreed in the wild? I'll get back to you on that with a list.

In the meantime, here's some urls to chew on while you pontificate over the evils of hybrdization.

Stabilizing selection on genomic divergence in a wild fish population

And to sate your demands at least somewhat:

Hybrization between fish species in nature. PDF file. States "He soon noted that natural hybrids occurred in many collections. This observation was in conflict with the teachings of his mentor, David Starr Jordan."

Plus: 
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Hybrid.htm



> There have been some reports of 'natural' rainbowfish hybrids being found in nature. Gerald Allen has found a couple of hybrids in the wild and several others have caught an occasionally hybrid. However, most of these natural hybrids are rare.


This one shares your same good intentioned if misguided ideals on "purity" in the genepool, totally ignoring the implications of reduced genetic diversity.


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## Lisachromis (Jan 19, 2005)

Teelie @ Tue Feb 22 said:


> I Never heard of a goldfish? Those are a mix breeding of carp species from centuries ago and then further bred into a dozen or more body shapes. No outcry for that "frankenfish" to my knowledge..


Umm.. goldfish are one species. Not a crossed species. Since it's been played with by man for so long, it has many mutations available. 

And just so you know, many fish crosses are viable and will produce viable young. This muddies the genetics of the fish in question. Most dedicated hobbyists prefer to keep pure species. When you cross them, you confuse the genetics. It's not always easy to know when you've gotten a crossbred fish. If you really can't cull any fry you get from the fish, you should always tell people that they are crossed. That brings up another problem. Say you are honest enough to tell people that buy them that they are crosses. Maybe the people you are selling to aren't that honest. 
So, the best route is to not let the fish you do have crossbreed. If they do, you really should cull the fry. Please don't try to cross your fish! This is why crosses are bad for the hobby.


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## Teelie (Feb 13, 2005)

Read the edited information I added above. If anything, hybridization is better for a species in the long term especially in the aquarium. With a captive raised gene pool, you have a severely limited and restricted genetic history which weakens the species overall.

Of course this will fall on deaf or unaccepting ears but it's worth a shot to at least attempt to clarify the irony of who is more detrimental to a species' health.


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Panda Cories*

This all should have been in a new fresh topic, maybe the moderator will move half of it


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## Fishnut2 (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Panda Cories*

Good point Lexus! I mentioned earlier that I might move it into a new topic. I'm a new mod (here) and don't want to screw it up. I'll ask Mark for help to split the thread. I appreciate that others have joined in, as I think it's a great topic. I'll post a bit more of my opinion, once I get it moved. In the meantime...keep posting :!:


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## Fishnut2 (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Interbred fish - Good or bad?*

OK,
 I took a chance, and actually did it right! (This thread was split from "Panda cories")
A good point that Teelie made, was about the deteriaration of the genetic lines from breeding captive fish. Good breeders will go out of thier way to obtain different bloodlines, in order to keep thier strains strong. I agree that linebreeding (related fish) will eventually produce cull fish. Even if they aren't culls, thier genetics won't be as strong as breeding with diversified stock. A perfect example of this were the albino bristlenose plecos. When they first hit the hobby (around here anyway) there was a limited availability. Many people bred related stock, as that was all that was available. There were a lot of fry that had crooked tails as a result of this line breeding. Now that different bloodlines are available...the crooked tails have become fairly rare.
  I'd also like to talk about selective breeding. (Breeding for a certain trait) Long fin bristlenose plecos are a good example for this. They aren't a hybrid (crossed with a different species). They were probably linebred originally, for the desired trait...the Long Fins. This is common with guppies/angels/goldfish/koi...and probably many other fish. This is also common with breeding dogs. My dog was line bred for the excellent OFA (hip rating). When I mated him...I found a female from a different pedigree with an excellent OFA...which is an example of selective breeding.
  Now for my opinion on breeding fish! It's just an opinion, and doesn't mean I'm right or wrong  :wink:  I'm totally against hybrid fish. I don't have a problem with selective breeding. I would only linebreed if that's the only stock available...and it's a rare fish. (My black aeneus are the only fish I've ever linebred).
  PLEASE post your opinion. I'd love to hear from ya


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

one of the reasons why most people don't like hybrids is that its is not natural the blood parrot is a terrible fish they are agressive and they are ugly when hybrids do escape into the wild they destroy the ecosystem that is already there

also what do you mean genetic lines disapearing there is enough diversity in north america that the gene pool is not going to die out people just need to sell there stock to fellow aquarist up here in canada I get lots of diversity in my guppies and everything else that I get and there are some people that go on trips and collect wild fish I just got 6 metriclima estherae f-1 fry they are in perfect health.

and when a hybrid is produced they are normally infertile every once in a while you get one that is fertile like crossing platie x swordtail that cross has produced many fertile and new color strains but they are very closely related or you can just get lucky and get new hybrid strain but a hybrid is not a new strain by any means they are impure and the genetics are so screwed up 

and the fish in the wild do not hybridize the only time we get hybrids is cause man makes a mess of something natural like taking to many males from a certain river to keep the lines going the females have to mate with a differnt male from a different species

hope you can understand this but this is just my two cents


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## Larry-T (Jan 18, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

In most, if not all, cases, fish will not interbreed in the wild. Scientists have observed collections of closely related species for years (such as in East Africa) without seeing hybridization. There are many evolutionary cues which act to prevent hybridization from occurring. In the aquarium, many of these mechanisms break down and you have hybrids produced. If you desire to raise them, there should be two rules you follow:

1. Never sell them or give them away to stores, breeders, or other hobbyists. You owe it to those who wish to breed known species to keep hybrids out of circulation.

2. Never release them into the wild -- but that goes for all fish which have ever been in the aquarium, even if they were caught from a stream on your own property.


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## flynngriff (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

Personally, I don't think there's any problem with breeding hybrids, and even distributing them. As long as you make absolutely sure that the person(s) receiving them know that they are a hybrid, and what fish the hybrid comes from. As long as the people involved are informed and responsible, I don't see any problem with it.

If I were to breed hybrids, however, I would likely not ever give them to a fish store. The odds of a store making sure all their employees and customers know about the hybrids is slim to none. Giving, or even selling them to other hobbyists seems fine to me. Like I said, as long as the recepient knows what they're getting.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Since I'm majoring in biology/wildlife management at my university, I think I can shed some light on this issue. First lets talk about why we don't have hybridization occuring a lot in natural ecosystems. 1. Prezygotic barriers - this includes different anatomy, not being attracted to the opposite sex of the similar species (not the right mating dance, color, behavior, etc) ecological isolation, temporal isolation, gametic isolation, and mechanical isolation. 2. Postzygotic barriers - this includes hybrid inviablility, hybrid sterility, and hybrid breakdown. 
Now lets consider some of the many ways "new species" evolove. 
Allopatric speciation, Parapatric speciation, Sympatric speciation, mutation, and hybridization. 
Now the majority of evolution takes place in Allopatric speciation, but there have been cases of viable populations of hybrids (such as the endangered red wolf). 
Now about examples in the wild - Tiger Muskys, saugareyes, Cichlids, most panfish, and stripped bass.

Hybrids are definately a hot topic with breeders. I think however that its a natural process. Viable populations of the original species should always be kept in the wild and of coarse in the majority of aquariums. But I don't discourage breeders from doing it. And of coarse NO hybrids or aquarium fish are introduced into natural bodies of water even if they were caught from there. Those for complete genetic purity is basically what I call hybrid natziism, without hybridization you take away a major component of evolution. Keeping only pure species would destroy the natural flow of organisms changing (species are NOT static by anymeans always evolving and changing)


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## Lisachromis (Jan 19, 2005)

Teelie @ Wed Feb 23 said:


> This one shares your same good intentioned if misguided ideals on "purity" in the genepool, totally ignoring the implications of reduced genetic diversity.


Well... This article just goes to show that reduced genetic diversity might not be the problem that it's put out to be.

Also here might make some interesting reading as well.

Just some food for thought.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

that cichild is a hybrid


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## Lisachromis (Jan 19, 2005)

Fishfirst @ Thu Feb 24 said:


> that cichild is a hybrid


Which?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

All cichlids can be considered hybrids, in africa and south america hundreds of thousands of years ago, these fish derived from just a few species... a lot of new species became distinct because of allopatric speciation, when a physical barrier (long term drought) seperates a population of animals, they adapt to thier surroundings, different genes are selected for in thier slightly differing habitats and then when it no longer is a drought they are rejoined, some still breed with eachother, creating hybrids, and the process is repeated... leaving hybrid lineages in practically every species of cichlid.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

I don't like crossbred dogs particulary, but if I saw that my alsatian breed with a poodle, I wouldn't go and kill the puppies. I don't see what's wrong with crossbreeding as it's one of the only ways to create new strains.


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

Blood parrots are a good example of bad hybrids. They have organ malformations, twisted spines, etc. They often have a hard time eating and swimming, especially those which don't have tails :evil: .
They are also often dyed in terrible neon-colours. They are a big no-no for me.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

well of coarse there should be a code of ethics that comes with hybrids... I would agree blood parrots shouldn't be bred for obvious reasons... but that isn't to say that a perfectly good hybrid should not be bred. I would say, try it once and if it doesn't turn out... don't try it again.


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## Lisachromis (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*



Cichlid Man @ Sat Feb 26 said:


> I don't like crossbred dogs particulary, but if I saw that my alsatian breed with a poodle, I wouldn't go and kill the puppies. I don't see what's wrong with crossbreeding as it's one of the only ways to create new strains.


Thing is... both of those are dogs. They may be different breeds but they are dogs (just linebred, which is different than crossbred). We're talking about crossing something like dogs and wolves. (as an example)


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## flynngriff (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

I've known a few people that have had dog/wolf crosses... Either with german shepards or huskies. They loved them, and had long happy lives with their "dog"...


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

In Finland there is a place called Wolfpark, they have those hybrids there. 
The ones that have a high percentage of wolf-genes are extremely dangerous. If they get out of their pens they attack dogs,cows and other livestock. I really can't imagine what it is like to train these beasts :? .


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## flynngriff (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

I'm not actually sure of the details of these "dogs" I've known, but I do know they were at least part wolf, and they seemed good natured. I guess they were probably a very small part wolf...


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

the wolves "viciousness" is completely over-rated... come on people, we aren't liveing in the 1800's! The reality is: wolves are afraid of humans. The hybrids of wolf/dog are simply reacting to an instinct when they attack other dogs. A wolf, will kill any other canine that isn't part of thier pack when they are in thier territory. Also the attacks on cows and other livestock is greatly over-exagerated... as is human attacks... its more of HOW you train the hybrids. I had a friend who had a fox mix, it was the smartest animal I have yet to encounter (he even kneeboarded!) Funny as heck!


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

*Re: Hybrid fish - Good or bad?*

No, they really do attack livestock. They aren't aggressive. it is just that you can't really tell what they are up to next, that makes them unsuitable for normal people. They are very friendly to the people that handle them, if the trainer knows what he's doing. If the animal carries only a few percent of wolf genes they are practically like normal dogs.


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