# Ph problem...ongoing...need answers



## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

Our tap water pH is 8.2 immediately from the tap. After sitting for 24-48 hours it is 8.0. When added to our tanks for water changes, we keep getting very big pH drops, in the 6.0 ranges. What are we doing wrong here? We don't want to keep having to add ph up. Would a RO system fix this problem?


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## austinroberts23 (Jan 25, 2012)

I use simple chemical that you can get at petco. Will have to look up the name of it. its a white powder that you just add when you fill your buckets.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

RO would likely make pH drop more. You need to know the hardness of the water as it affects the pH over time. Once you understand what is happening, you can think about additives. What are you adding to the water? What is the pH of the tank? are you using Co2?


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

RO water would likely give you more stable water, but the pH of RO water is about 6.8 to 7.2. It sounds like there is something raising the pH in the water, but it is not acting as a good buffer. I would guess there is something in your tank that is overcoming the poor buffer of the tap water. Is there CO2, driftwood, chemicals other than dechlorinator, or anything you can think of that might have a low pH? If you can't get it to stabilize, you can always buy buffers at the store, and correct it to the exact pH you want. There are buffers for low pH (5.8 to 7.0), neutral pH (6.8 to 7.2), medium pH (7.2 to 7.6) and high pH (8.0 to 8.4). I would not recommend using products like pH Down, or pH Up, as they just change the pH and do not buffer the water at all.


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> RO would likely make pH drop more. You need to know the hardness of the water as it affects the pH over time. Once you understand what is happening, you can think about additives. What are you adding to the water? What is the pH of the tank? are you using Co2?


Using Prime, salt, Stablity. pH of the tank tonight was 6.2. Not using any Co2. Water hardness (KH?) is 6.


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

bmlbytes said:


> RO water would likely give you more stable water, but the pH of RO water is about 6.8 to 7.2. It sounds like there is something raising the pH in the water, but it is not acting as a good buffer. I would guess there is something in your tank that is overcoming the poor buffer of the tap water. Is there CO2, driftwood, chemicals other than dechlorinator, or anything you can think of that might have a low pH? If you can't get it to stabilize, you can always buy buffers at the store, and correct it to the exact pH you want. There are buffers for low pH (5.8 to 7.0), neutral pH (6.8 to 7.2), medium pH (7.2 to 7.6) and high pH (8.0 to 8.4). I would not recommend using products like pH Down, or pH Up, as they just change the pH and do not buffer the water at all.


No Co2, no driftwood, only Prime and Stability and a small amount of salt (this is a Molly tank). Our other Betta grow out tank last night was 6.0. We practically replaced all the water to get the pH up and tonight it is 6.4. Again, just Stablity and Prime in the water. UGH...what to do?


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

austinroberts23 said:


> I use simple chemical that you can get at petco. Will have to look up the name of it. its a white powder that you just add when you fill your buckets.


thank you!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I often add either Alkaline regulator (for pH 7.5 soft) from Seachem or a combo of Malawi buffer and Cichlid Salt (Malawi cichlids & livebearers). But my water is very soft and pH drops off. 6 is more moderate hardness, I'd expect it to stay up better. The other thing you could try is a substrate like crushed coral, limestone, dolomite, or "cichlid substrate" that will slowly dissolve and increase the kH (carbonate hardness) which tends to increase pH.

Test you nitrates and make sure they are reasonable. "off the chart" nitrate levels will sink your pH as well as causing other problems.


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> I often add either Alkaline regulator (for pH 7.5 soft) from Seachem or a combo of Malawi buffer and Cichlid Salt (Malawi cichlids & livebearers). But my water is very soft and pH drops off. 6 is more moderate hardness, I'd expect it to stay up better. The other thing you could try is a substrate like crushed coral, limestone, dolomite, or "cichlid substrate" that will slowly dissolve and increase the kH (carbonate hardness) which tends to increase pH.
> 
> Test you nitrates and make sure they are reasonable. "off the chart" nitrate levels will sink your pH as well as causing other problems.


Thanks so much for the suggestions....our nitrates are 10, so that isn't an issue. I know these pH swings are really tough on the fish..gotta figure something out. Think I will test the KH again.


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

Let's back up. Take the tank with the largest pH drop. What is in the tank? I mean EVERYTHING. The pH should not be dropping that much, so something unusual is going on here.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

i get drops like that, but my water is sometimes TDS 50 out of the tap. 

I don't doubt that something like "alkaline regulator" will do the trick, but I would feel better knowing the why.

Have you done any resealing or gluing of decor or lid or filter with aquarium sealant? FP is right, we should rule out sources of acid in the tank. Is the tank new? What are you feeding. After you did a 100% water change, is the pH still falling?

Where does your water come from originally? Is it a well, or just river water cached in a lake like mine?


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

Fishpunk said:


> Let's back up. Take the tank with the largest pH drop. What is in the tank? I mean EVERYTHING. The pH should not be dropping that much, so something unusual is going on here.


We have had this happen with almost every tank, but right now it is our 5 gallon Betta grow tank. We have 5 very young bettas in it. There are three silk plants (about three tall ones) and a little resin (?) castle, also a betta floating log, along with a silicone fake coral. No gravel. that's it!


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> i get drops like that, but my water is sometimes TDS 50 out of the tap.
> 
> I don't doubt that something like "alkaline regulator" will do the trick, but I would feel better knowing the why.
> 
> ...


The 5 gallon is not a new tank, but it is "new" in that it hasn't been used for a long time. Still in the cycling process. No resealing or gluing of anything. We are feeding frozen baby brine shrimp and Hikari First bites. We bought that CaribSea cycled water initially to fill the tank with. We couldn't get the ph up with that in the tank, so we replaced it with our own preconditioned tap water. Our water is city water..processed...comes from a lake I guess initially. But it is not just this tank...our 15 gallon tank which is cycled, tonight took a dump to 6.0 (I just tested it) and we lost two platys. What is wrong with our water...not enough buffers in it??? Guess I need to make a trip to the LFS tonight for some ph regulator?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

My water is sometimes extremely soft. No buffers, just rainwater, which can be acidic if you have coal-powered power plants near you. Companies will add NaOH (aka pH up) so as not to damage pipes, but the change doesn't last. 

One thing you can try now is 1/4 tsp baking soda per 10 gallons. Its an old trick and very safe.

For the mollies, I'd either use a cichlid salt or a marine salt and buffer as you want a TDS of like 150 ppm.


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

Strictly speaking, mollies should be in brackish water.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

It sounds to me like there are very few total dissolved solids in your water. This can make it unstable when the water company adds things to it to make it safe to drink. The water company only really cares about a few things. Among those things are "Is it safe to drink?" and "Will it hurt our plumbing?". They are not thinking of aquariums. The alkaline additive that emc7 suggested sounds like a strong possibility. In this case, I would recommend adding an alkaline buffer, and adding some aquarium salt to it. I would actually recommend making your molly tank a brackish water tank, and move your platies into other aquariums. A brackish water tank will use marine salt, which will have plenty of alkaline buffers in it, keeping your pH nice and high. 

Remember, you can not just make these changes really fast. Make sure to acclimate your fish to their new conditions very slowly. If you do decide to go brackish, add a little marine salt during each regular water change, until your aquarium is at brackish conditions. You may experience another cycling period, since it will need to establish bacteria that thrive in salt water. In other words, be careful during the next few weeks. 

TL;DR
-Move all the mollies into one tank, and platies into the others
-Slowly make mollies tank brackish water
-Use products like _API Proper pH 8.2_ in your other tanks to stabilize a high pH
-Add aquarium salt to other tanks to increase TDS


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

In the wild, mollies are found in fresh and brackish. IME mollies do well in very hard water or in brackish water. They do not thrive in my soft water and develop disease and die. "lake Malawi" water works well for most livebearers, even though none of them are found in lake malawi.


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

bmlbytes said:


> It sounds to me like there are very few total dissolved solids in your water. This can make it unstable when the water company adds things to it to make it safe to drink. The water company only really cares about a few things. Among those things are "Is it safe to drink?" and "Will it hurt our plumbing?". They are not thinking of aquariums. The alkaline additive that emc7 suggested sounds like a strong possibility. In this case, I would recommend adding an alkaline buffer, and adding some aquarium salt to it. I would actually recommend making your molly tank a brackish water tank, and move your platies into other aquariums. A brackish water tank will use marine salt, which will have plenty of alkaline buffers in it, keeping your pH nice and high.
> 
> Remember, you can not just make these changes really fast. Make sure to acclimate your fish to their new conditions very slowly. If you do decide to go brackish, add a little marine salt during each regular water change, until your aquarium is at brackish conditions. You may experience another cycling period, since it will need to establish bacteria that thrive in salt water. In other words, be careful during the next few weeks.
> 
> ...


I did forget to mention this...we have added aquarium salt to the Molly tanks..all of them. Whatever the recommended amount was for the tank size. We have always used the salt. So it is either the wrong salt, or it isn't helping the ph problem. Two of my other tanks today have pH's in the 6 range...arrghhh. Including my 55 gallon with all the Mollies and the platys. AND my baby betta grow tank...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

"aquarium salt" is basically the same as table salt, sodium chloride. It does up the conductivity of water and is certainly better than nothing for fish like mollies and african cichlids that need ions in the water. But sea salt and "cichlid" salt both are better than aquarium salt because they supply magnesium, calcium, potassium, etc. While some "salts" can act as buffers, NaCl and most "salt" mixes don't affect pH much. You'll often see Malawi buffer and cichlid salt sold separately, or marine salt and marine buffer sold separately. But you can also find products that do both such as "cichlid chemistry". 

At this point, it looks like you'll be playing with your water chemistry a long time. I suggest you get a pen-style TDS meter. It doesn't tell you what is in the water, but only how much. Its good for matching water so you don't shock fish with a water change or when moving them.

pH meters are neat, also. But they are more money and pH is about the cheapest liquid test. 

If you are game, try the baking soda in one tank. Put in 1/8 tsp, wait, and then retest. 
It is about the cheapest way to "buffer" a tank. But I do like the SeaChem "regulator" line. A blend of buffers keeps the pH from moving too far even if you overdose.


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> "aquarium salt" is basically the same as table salt, sodium chloride. It does up the conductivity of water and is certainly better than nothing for fish like mollies and african cichlids that need ions in the water. But sea salt and "cichlid" salt both are better than aquarium salt because they supply magnesium, calcium, potassium, etc. While some "salts" can act as buffers, NaCl and most "salt" mixes don't affect pH much. You'll often see Malawi buffer and cichlid salt sold separately, or marine salt and marine buffer sold separately. But you can also find products that do both such as "cichlid chemistry".
> 
> At this point, it looks like you'll be playing with your water chemistry a long time. I suggest you get a pen-style TDS meter. It doesn't tell you what is in the water, but only how much. Its good for matching water so you don't shock fish with a water change or when moving them.
> 
> ...


Ok..thanks for the suggestions... will check out the TDS meter and will try the baking soda and see what happens. I know we have used it before to bring up the pH before I purchased the pH up and down by API. I don't remember how long the effect lasted though, so will try it again and let you know what happens. Really appreciate your help!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

It should be longer lasting than pH up. And don't OD, do a little at a time. 

As for pH up and down, just throw that junk out.


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> It should be longer lasting than pH up. And don't OD, do a little at a time.
> 
> As for pH up and down, just throw that junk out.


Ok..thanks! Another waste of money...LOL...oh well....it wasn't a lot :fish::fish::fish::fish::fish:


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## DeborahP (Nov 8, 2011)

Well, after testing the tap water 3x last night, we discovered the problem with our ph drops. Our tap water KH is less than 1. So now what to do?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok....let's back way the heck up...
deborah....o you know where lakeview NC is ?
your problem could be from the county water...i am checking..will let you know what i find..


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok deb.....i know it's kinda long...but read this thread....all of it...lots of creazy stuff ; but you may get some answers....


http://www.aquaboards.com/showthread.php?76413-Horrified-Heartbroken-Hysterical


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I wanted to add this here, since it is somewhat relevant. I find it is always good to know exactly what you are adding to your aquarium. 

You can usually find what chemicals are in a product by looking at the Materials Safety Data Sheet. This is something that must be provided for chemicals and harmful substances. It will also tell you about toxicity, corrosive-ness, flammability, radioactivity, etc. 

pH Up is 10% to 19% sodium carbonate (washing soda).
pH Down is 1% sulfuric acid (battery acid for cars).

I would think that baking soda and pH Up would have about the same effect on the tank. I would add a calcium buffer of some sort to keep the pH stable.

pH Up MSDS: http://cms.marsfishcare.com/files/msds/ph_up_122309.pdf
pH Down MSDS: http://cms.marsfishcare.com/files/msds/ph_down_111909.pdf


EDIT: It is also good to know what the city does to your water. Check out your water quality report for your area. 
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/34133-us-2010-water-quality-reports.html
I think there is one for Charlotte on that page.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i would suggest scrapping the idea of using any chemicals to alter water parameters....
the risk of extreme fluctuations such as PH swings are too great...the use of natural substances such as dolomite or peat to alter PH are more gradual and stable...
it must be the youth drug culture that is promoting all this use of chemicals...lol

oh yeah...i find this interesting.....
these 2 ladies live about 100 miles from each other...you can almost draw a straight line from one town to the other..lakeview being due east of charlotte...very very close to the same problems.....

just my own thing but.......i will not use prime nor would i recommend it to anybody...i don't care what the manufacturer says or even guarantees...
i have been using "Dechlor" made by Weco for almost 40 years without ever having a problem...Prime does not have that kind of track record...
stability is ok..it doesn't alter the actual chemistry of the water..


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

When you have really soft water like I do here north of Atlanta, you can treat it like rainwater or RO water. Essentially, it is almost devoid of mineral content. 

Some "blackwater" fish will thrive in it as is, with frequent water changes to keep the pH from falling too far. This is the strategy the discus breeders use. 

Otherwise, you may need to add something every time you change water (its okay to top off with only de-chlored water).

The low "hardness" make the tap water kind of volatile. If it rains, you get different numbers from 40-150 ppm TDS. Because its "runoff" water you can get spikes in nitrate and/or phosphate, the pH of the water will change with the hours since they last "adjusted" it. 

Because the water is variable, limiting water changes to 20-30% as was recommended in that thread is prudent. Also prudent is pre-treating and the letting the new water sit out to get well-oxygenated and settle the pH. However, as I have only had one oxygen issue in 10 years, this step is not strictly necessary, esp. if you are adjusting the pH.

What you add is up to you. But I strongly advise you add something. Most fishkeepers here do add stuff to water, but some use things like dolomite substrates, bags of crushed coral in the filter, etc. instead of messing with the water directly.

I have had good luck with a 1/2 dose of SeaChem's neutral regulator + Prime even in my "softwater" tanks with angels and apistos.

What you want to add will depend on your fish. Because you are starting from almost 0, you can look up each fish's home water and add stuff to match like you would if you were using RO. All of the RO marketed products should work for you. You can also use DIY buffer recipes like the one here: http://cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php

For betta, I would aim for 7.5 pH, probably using Seachem Alkaline Regulator.

For livebearers I aim for "lake malawi water", TDS 150, pH >7.4 using either a DIY buffer or commercial products aimed at cichlids. But the suggestion of brackish with Marine Buffer and a low dose Marine salt is also a good way to go for mollies. You should get a hydrometer if you do this. 

You should try to be consistent in your water changes, add new water slowly if its been a long time since the last one. Testing tank water and tap water for TDS or gH or conductivity should be part of your routine. Get a notebook or open a spreadsheet and record what you've added, your test results and how the tank is doing. It shouldn't be hard to find a routine that works for your fish.

The good news is that you can keep anything. From Discus to rift lake cichlids. Adding stuff to water is far, far easier than taking it out. There are good number of advanced aquarists in your area and as well as active fish clubs including CAAS in Charlotte and RAS in Raleigh and you are within driving distance of us in AAAA. 

On Feb. 17-19, RAS is hosting its workshop. http://www.raleighaquariumsociety.com/workshop/index.html 
A whole day of lecture devoted to freshwater fish and fishkeeping. 
Warning though: don't do to the auction without an empty tank or the budget to buy one.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate. It has a two step dissociation in water which makes it a natural buffer, but if you add more, the pH will climb more. The seachem "regulators" are a blend of two phosphate buffers which also keep pH in a range by reacting with both acids and bases. This makes them hard to overdose. But they can help fuel algae growth in plant-less tanks.

Malawi and Marine buffer and DIY buffer are, I think, carbonate buffers and when you add more, pH goes up further. IME, this is not a big deal for either African cichilds or livebearers as they take both dissolved solids and high pH in stride. IME, these fish are at risk when pH drops below 7 as they don't do as well in acidic water chemistry. 

For softwater fish, a little bag of dolomite in the filter may be all that's needed, but IMO livebearers should have more significant amounts of dissolved calcium etc. If you don't add to the water, you'd probably have to use something like an African cichlid substrate, dolomite, or crushed coral as a thick layer of substrate.

You wouldn't say "you shouldn't add chemicals" to someone using straight RO water. You need to add minerals or the pH will fall and the fish die. Well, our tap water is nearly the same as RO. Rain water caught in a lake, dusted with chlorine and enough NaOH to get pH above 7.5 and pumped to our homes. I have measured TDS as lower than 40 ppm. This is a special case. Most tap water in the US is moderately or even very hard. I doubt someone in the midwest would ever see a pH of 4, but I do if I don't buffer and neglect water changes. 

IMO, the seachem regulators are a lifeline, insurance against my neglect killing my fish. I'm sure there are other ways to achieve the same ends, but I always recommend what I know works for me. I have heard on the local board that Charlotte water is very similar to ours and both the test result of kH=1 and the thread loha linked to confirm it.


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## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

I think people get confused on "adding chemicals" and adding things that should be naturally present in the water. Adding baking soda is adding sodium bicarbonate. Adding crushed coral to the filter is basically adding Calcium carbonate. Tums tablets and most calcium vitamins are calcium carbonate and can also be used. Dolmite is calcium magnesium carbonate. Epsom salts are Magnesium sulfate. Each effects things differently. Baking soda will increase just KH. Calcium Carbonate will increase both KH and GH. Adding one is no more chemically then adding the other. Coral and dolmite is slower and thus will be slower to responding to changes. While powders dissolve fast and can take effect instantly. 

There are tons of ways to increase your KH and GH. I would highly recommend reading up on KH and GH and how they dictate your pH and your waters buffering capacity. 

Loha as far as dechlors and Prime go, I would bet the brand you mentioned is basically the exact same thing as Prime. Prime doesn't alter 'normal' water chemistry neither. The chemist in me though says EVERYTHING alters water chemistry. In this hobby the 4-6 common water parameters we monitor hardly tells you much of water chemistry. 

When a lot of people hear the word "chemical" they seem to reason something unnatural, which is sometimes the case. Often though in this hobby it is simply a substance that would naturally be present anyway. I'm all for using less additives on a tank, but if something is lacking/needed by the tank you simply want the best option to fix the issue. Its important to understand what an additive is before judging it. I my opinion adding powdered buffers(as long as you know what they are exactly and how they function) is no worse then adding salt.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I have found out the hard way that I should add to my water. I am lazy and would skip it if I could. I have also learned that angels will survive pH 4 but guppies won't. My advice to people with hard water is usually leave it alone or dilute with RO as IME the additives I tried (when I lived in IL) cloud the water and only have a temporary effect anyway. 

A lot of the stuff on the market is full of salt, doesn't say what's in it and can do harm as well as waste your money. All Additives need to be used with care. SeaChem does a decent job as disclosure, most of their supplements have full breakdowns on the web. 

I agree with you that you should know exactly what you are adding and if you do anything to change your water chemistry, you have to keep it consistent and test your parameters. Which is enough of a pain, that I usually tell people not to change stuff.

But this case is true to my own experience when I moved here. I was in complete disbelief at how fast the pH could fall off. This advice given by the LFS in the thread is good and others with similar water will tell you the same thing. I strongly suggest joining the CAAS and/or at least reading old threads on their board. No one knows your water like your near neighbors.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

It may sound silly, but I was curious (as you may know) about the whole relationship between co2 and lowering ph. I assume that the ph drop with co2 would be gradual, and if it were THIS bad, it would probably cause deaths from co2 poisoning, I was just curious why nobody had thought of it yet?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Co2 poisoning? Never heard of it. There was a women in a McDs bathroom when a CO2 cylinder for their beverage machine leaked and she suffocated because CO2 displaced all the oxygen in the air. Co2 is everywhere. In the air, in the water, fish and people breathe some in and lots out all day. 

Carbon monoxide (CO) kills by taking the place of oxygen (O2) in the body so you can't get the o2 you need to live. CO binds better to the heme in blood cells than O2 and it doesn't let go. CO is actually kind of hard to make. Usually incomplete combustion, burning something is an area with low oxygen. 

Planted tanks with Co2 have huge pH swings and the fish in them are usually fine. pH is the easiest parameter to measure, but hardness or conductivity or dissolved solids or whatever you want to call it is far more important to fish and far more dangerous to change quickly. 

No one should freak because there pH is a few 10ths off. It isn't that important. The issue isn't that pH is dropping, the issue is that there is no bottom. And the fish will soon be living in water with a pH of lemon juice or vinegar. The protective slime with start to vanish and then fins will start to vanish. There won't be any external parasites, but its generally not good for fish.


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## Sorafish (Sep 15, 2011)

http://www.algone.com/aquarium-articles/fish-health/aquarium-fish-poisoning

Has symptoms, cause, and way to stop it from happening. This is usually my main concern when fish are shipped, really. Fishpunk explained to me that when you get rid of the CO2, the ph goes back up. 
But this was in reference to a SMALL body of water, I'm not sure how this would work with a tank, but I HAVE had a tank with NO plants, No bubbler, and slightly over-stocked and had an issue with too much Co2. I never thought to test the Ph, so my issue could have been that it was lowered due to the Co2. I just thought it was worth looking into. 
If they have no plants, no bubbler, and a lot of fish, this could be their issue.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I have seen gasping and called it low O2. Since I've never injected Co2 I've doubt I've seen CO2 poisoning. Though I suppose in every long-closed bag with low O2 there is also extra CO2.

But I guess it doesn't matter what you call it, treatment is the same: aerate like crazy. 

The main disaster I hear about in new planted tanks is a DIY yeast Co2 maker blowing its top and poisoning the water with alcohol, yeast and cereal (or jelly or whatever) and causing a killer ammonia spike. This usually causes the owner to stop CO2 or go buy a cylinder.

I make it a habit to buffer water going into shipping or auction bags and to use an "ammonia detoxifier". As I understand, the CO2 just makes the ammonia less toxic until it comes out, but it is the ammonia that actually kills. Note that "bag buddies" control ammonia but can cause a very high TDS if overdosed and you need to bring the fish back down somewhat slowly. Another reason to keep a TDS meter around.


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## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

Both yeast and pressurized CO2 has its risks. A DIY yeast system can overflow if not setup right causing a mess and eating up O2. If you do not use a presurrized system properly, or reg or needle valve fails there certainly is the potential to kill the fish. Too much CO2 in the water and the fish will suffocate. This can only be done with a pressurized system though. Usually the signs are more then obvious so its not to common. Either way some of us learn the hard way. Many years ago I killed off a large cherry shrimp breeding colony by failure to monitor CO2 levels. 

One trick I've seen for shipping fish is just tossing a cube of mature media in the bags. I got live fish that have been in the mail for almost 4 days and they had sponge square in each bag, I didn't loose a single one.


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