# Fluval 404 died... not sure what to do



## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

I have 125-gallon planted setup. I would rate it under-stocked.

I was running:
1) Fluval 404 canister
... recently added
2) Emperor 400 (~2-1/2 weeks back)
3) Aquaclear 110 (~1-1/2 weeks back; replaced a Magnum HOT 250 which has been retired)

... the fluval's flow started dropping and over about a week it finally stopped altogether. I took it apart, replaced all filter media save a couple bio-bags. The flow returned but was way slow and stopped the next morning once again. I cleaned out the impeller and I'm not sure if I did this while doing it or if it was like this already -- but at some point the tiny ceramic impeller shaft was snapped. Of course, it wouldn't flow again once re-plugged and primed. Otherwise the engine hums and it sounds like it did previously when it worked.

-- I've already ordered a new impeller shaft. I'm going to replace and see if that was the problem. In the meantime, I'm relying on my two HO filters. I took the "good" bag of bio-rings and put them in the AC (I don't run carbon, so there was a little room for them on the top, although they don't fully submerge). 

- Over the past week (since the fluval failing), ammonia is .25ppm and nitrite is .25ppm (barely above 0). Since they've only been running a few weeks. I wonder if they're re-establishing or simply not up to the task of filtering a 125-gallon tank fully. They have only had a little time to fully cycle and I also put makeshift sponge pre-filters and wrap the inputs with panyhose. The flows on both are muted b/c of this. Prior to the Fluval stopping I was zeroed on both Ammonia and Nitrite. 

... What should I do if I can't get my fluval back and operational?

1) Nothing. Rely on the two HO filters. 
2) Replace the Fluval in 2-3 months (kind of broke right now)
3) Wait 4-6 months and replace with top-end Eheim.
4) ASAP (probably in the next couple weeks) replace with a cheapy-brand canister filter (I've been eyeing maybe a JBJ EFU-25 or an Aquatop CF-400V as both have UV sterilization which I don't really need but would be a nice addition to get while I'm at it)...

If it helps I also have a Aquaclear 50 powerhead which I'm about to get a quick filter attachment for it. It was ordered prior to the fluval dying and it's on route). I run my DIY CO2 though it.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I think you will be fine for now. Your 2 filters will have enough filtration if your tank is not overstocked. If you want to buy another canister filter to replace your Fluval, then put the filter material in the tank to keep it wet.

How old is your Fluval filter? Fluval canister filters have a 1 year warranty on them. You could send it back if its newer than that. 

UV sterilizers are not as awesome as they seem. They kill bacteria in your tank, including the things that do the nitrogen cycle. I haven't seen a single tank that actually benefit from a UV filter. Really, its more of a gimmick to sell you a purple light.

Good luck!


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

bmlbytes said:


> I think you will be fine for now. Your 2 filters will have enough filtration if your tank is not overstocked. If you want to buy another canister filter to replace your Fluval, then put the filter material in the tank to keep it wet.
> 
> How old is your Fluval filter? Fluval canister filters have a 1 year warranty on them. You could send it back if its newer than that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip on the UV sterilizer. I don't have green water (despite the placing of my aquarium in the living room where it gets plenty of indirect and some direct sunlight, in addition to 2x80W T5HO). I was only really thinking it might be an insurance policy against ich. Aquarium has light/moderate planting (which I plan to increase over time) plus duckweed and another floating plant. They seem to do a good job out-competing algae for now. I also run my lights about 10-1/2 hours a day. I'm thinking of dropping it to 8/day and getting some kind of hang-on light to run twilight hours so I can enjoy the tank when I get home, just have it run for a couple hours or something from 5pm-8pm nightly on a timer. Maybe have the lights turn on later in the day, too. Dunno. 

Fluval is old but I can't say how old. 404 style, not the newer 405. I bought the tank used 5 years back and it came with it. No idea how old it was when I got it. Been a workhorse for me but it might just have worn itself out.

I only put one of the old bio-bags in the tank (w/ my AC 110). The others really only had a few days to establish so I didn't think they had much bacteria on them. They've been dried out since so now for sure they don't.

Do you have a theory why my ammonia and nitrite made a mini-spike? It could be anything, so I do understand it's just guess work right now. I'm hoping it's just that they hadn't fully grown enough bacteria in the ~2 weeks they've been working and sometime soon will zero out those levels. While .25ppm isn't horrible, I know any amount is fairly toxic. I'm also battling high nitrate levels (40-80ppm current -- almost impossible to tell the difference w/ API test) and been doing morning and night 10% changes, I don't want to over-stress my guys


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## snyderguy (Feb 9, 2010)

Before you go and buy a new canister, try changing the impeller. Sometimes that simply does the trick.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

UV sterilizers are designed to kill bacteria. Ich is a parasite, not a bacteria, so I doubt the UV sterilizer would even kill ich.

As for why the ammonia spiked, I would assume its the new filters. They most likely did not get a lot of bacteria growth since there was probably not a lot of waste on them. The bacteria eat the waste. The canister would have little bits of waste in it.


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

snyderguy said:


> Before you go and buy a new canister, try changing the impeller. Sometimes that simply does the trick.


 I looked over the impeller and it *seemed* okay but if it doesn't work once I switch in a new impeller shaft, I'll give that a swing.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Most all of the parts are available and cheaper than a new filter. Since the motor hums, it may be okay. I think the common issues are plugged hoses, impeller shaft bent, dead motor, or just dead power cord. 

Agree the 2 HOBs should be enough for an under-stocked tank, though panty-hose may be choking the flow, try a sponge instead. You could throw in some Stability and see that will tip in into 'cycled'.


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

emc7 said:


> Most all of the parts are available and cheaper than a new filter. Since the motor hums, it may be okay. I think the common issues are plugged hoses, impeller shaft bent, dead motor, or just dead power cord.
> 
> Agree the 2 HOBs should be enough for an under-stocked tank, though panty-hose may be choking the flow, try a sponge instead. You could throw in some Stability and see that will tip in into 'cycled'.


 For my aquaclear 110 I was using a sponge (one of those fluval edge round ones w/ a hole in the middle) and pantyhose. The flow was pretty slow so I removed the sponge and the flow improved a lot. I might try it w/out pantyhose and w/ the sponge to see how that goes. 

Not sure how to get sponge around the emperor 400, though. The intake strainer is very large and oddly shaped. Does anyone know if they make attachments for that w/ a different input head?


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Take the input head off and just put the sponge over the hole.


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## grogan (Jan 23, 2011)

If you do decide to go down the ehime path I think you will be happy. They are amazing filters.


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

bmlbytes said:


> Take the input head off and just put the sponge over the hole.


 I'm worried about fry getting stuck in there, though. I have guppies. Perhaps I could stick some sponge up in the intake head itself and not inside the nozzle/hose? 



grogan said:


> If you do decide to go down the ehime path I think you will be happy. They are amazing filters.


 I've been looking at some Eheim ECCO ones. They seem affordable and I wouldn't need to get a huge one, just something to compliment/complete my setup. The 2236 seems nice. I like the idea of the ECCO line, that they're easy to maintain and you don't have to constantly be monkey'ing with it.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

How will the fry get stuck in there if the sponge is over it?


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

bmlbytes said:


> How will the fry get stuck in there if the sponge is over it?


 Ooh over? Hmm. I read that wrong. Re-reading it... DOH, now I see... yeah, I will totally give that a whirl.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I haven't much of an issue with guppy fry and HOBs they are strong swimmers from the start (not like hatchlings) and don't have the instinct to 'go with the flow' that catches some fish species in filters. However, if you don't trust your strainer, a sponge "pre-flter" bought or homemade will restrict the flow less than most alternatives as long as you squeeze it out in the waste-water when you do a water change. They can clog if neglected.

Have you tried taking the hoses to the sink and sticking a a long-twisty brush like you'd use for cleaning a tuba through them? A plant clog is my #1 suspect in slow-flow.


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

I just put a 99c filter bag from PetSmart over the intake of my HOB filters. I've lost molly fry to intakes and even had juvenile mollies stuck in there. Mollies are stronger swimmers than guppies. The filter bag has minimal effect on the filter flow and keeps the babies out.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I've had fry get stuck in air powered filters before (Tetra Whisper 3i)


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

I couldn't find a good enough picture of a Tetra Whisper 3i to figure out how it works, so I can't comment on that. All I can say is that fry can be pretty creative in finding ways to die.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

This picture shows it fairly well.

The air pump forces air up that clear tube on the bottom. It works the same way a sponge filter lifts water. At the top is a little cartridge filter with filter material and carbon. Its a pretty bad filter.


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

Fishpunk said:


> I just put a 99c filter bag from PetSmart over the intake of my HOB filters. I've lost molly fry to intakes and even had juvenile mollies stuck in there. Mollies are stronger swimmers than guppies. The filter bag has minimal effect on the filter flow and keeps the babies out.


That's another interesting idea.

Initially, I had placed pantyhose over my Emperor 400 but that was severely restricting the flow. I removed it and took a fluval 305 pre-filter sponge, cut it in half, took of the strainer and just rubber banded this on the hose. Flow went way up but it's kind of an eye-sore. I'll definitely give your idea a go.

Btw, I'll probably make a thread about this, but I'm still waiting on the fluval impeller shaft so I don't know whether I will fix my 404 or not. In the meantime, I'm looking at possible replacements and the ECCO line from Eheim made the list... but how do they compare to the Classic canister ones? From what I've read: The Classic tends to get much better reviews...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The eheims are super quiet, but have some of the lowest flow rate / tank size recommended and some of the highest prices. People with planted tanks love them because they do the job without dissipating the CO2 and the green hoses vanish in the jungle. I tend to go with cheaper/louder filters. The classics have higher flow rates so they can also be used on cichlid tanks.

If you are filter shopping, bigalsonline has a good sale right now.


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## Fishpunk (Apr 18, 2011)

@bmlbytes That is an awkward design IMHO. So your fry got in through that hole in the top of the black chamber? 

@Aquarion The beauty is that the filter bag costs all of like 90 cents, so if it doesn't suit your needs, you aren't out much.


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## Aquarion (Nov 16, 2011)

emc7 said:


> The eheims are super quiet, but have some of the lowest flow rate / tank size recommended and some of the highest prices. People with planted tanks love them because they do the job without dissipating the CO2 and the green hoses vanish in the jungle. I tend to go with cheaper/louder filters. The classics have higher flow rates so they can also be used on cichlid tanks.
> 
> If you are filter shopping, bigalsonline has a good sale right now.


 Thanks for the insight. 

I'm not overly worried with flow rate: I have two other hang-on filters (although my AC110 right now is trickling a bit, going to take advice and remove the sponge and try the media filter bag over the intake and see if that gets it moving). I use DIY co2 (around a couple weeks now) and have actually seen improvement w/ plants. I keep my water levels high to help combat the water dissipation b/w the Aquaclear and Emperor HO filters I have on the back. Also, and this is pure speculation, but I have duckweed covering most of the top of my tank. They seem to absorb much of the impact of the water dropping (??). 

I'm broke now but when I do get around to this, I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a filter that's easier to maintain and one with a solid rep, like an Eheim.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Fishpunk, its one of the worst designs I have ever seen. I only used it since someone gave it to me. The fish went up the clear tube and into the back of the filter like you said.


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