# What Fish can I put Betta's with?



## anasfire23 (Jan 19, 2005)

I'm getting a new 2ft tank (no idea how many litres or gallons it will take up but it's big!)tomorrow and I'm planning on planting it out and making it a tropical tank and was thinking of putting some guppies, tetra's (neon) and maybe an angel fish or two in it. I'm just wondering if there are any fish i SHOULDN'T put the betta in with? I know that fantail goldies like to eat betta's fins but seeing as this will be a warm water tank I won't be keeping them. Are there any other fish that will do the same?Nibble the betta's fins or perhaps he'll attack or that will attack him? He's a CT so last thing I want is his fins to be nibbled and damaged. Also can anyone give me some ph level advice? Do all fish including betta's like the ph to be nutural? I've never monitored the ph level in ANY of my tanks before and managed to keep fish for a while, but I want this new tank to be a major success so figured I should learn.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> I'm getting a new 2ft tank (no idea how many litres or gallons it will take up but it's big!)tomorrow


Is it 2ft x 1ft x 1ft? Then it would be a 15 gallon... Or is it 2ft x 2 ft x 1ft? Then it's 30gallons 
Also, you may already know about this, but do some research on the nitrogen cycle. I don't know whether you're a "beginner" or not, but it's something everyone should know 



> and I'm planning on planting it out and making it a tropical tank and was thinking of putting some guppies, tetra's (neon) and maybe an angel fish or two in it.


If you're putting a betta in there, you can't put any fish in with big / long fins. This includes angelfish (your tank is likely too small, anyway), gouramis and guppies. Your betta will challenge / attack any fish that looks too much like another male betta. Your best bet is to stick with smaller fish like small tetras / rasboras. You can also get some large tetras (ie bleeding heart tetras, lemon tetras) - just remember the tetras school, and depending on the size of your tank, you can't get too many "types" of fish. For exmaple, if you have a 15gallon, you can have your betta, a school of ~8 neon tetras or black neons or glowlight tetras or harlequin rasboras, a couple platies and your betta. OR a school of ~6-7 lemon tetras and your betta. Obviously if your tank is 30 gallons, you can put more in it 



> Also can anyone give me some ph level advice? Do all fish including betta's like the ph to be nutural? I've never monitored the ph level in ANY of my tanks before and managed to keep fish for a while, but I want this new tank to be a major success so figured I should learn.


There are certain types of fish specific pH / hardness requirements, but for the most part, whatever comes out of your tap should be fine, unless your tap water is an extreme. Invest $30 in a test kit, so you'll know for sure your ammonia, pH, hardness, etc levels of your tap water and you'll be able to monitor your tank's levels later on.

Good luck


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Anything with long flowing fins like fancy guppies should be avoided. I also wouldn't have it with anything that moves fast or likes a lot of current, as the betta will have a hard time getting food and likes calm water. Most fish can adjust to any pH level if properly acclimated as long as the pH is stable, so don't use chemicals to adjust your pH.


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## anasfire23 (Jan 19, 2005)

Ok I have my new tank and have it stocked with 3 male guppies and 2 neon tetra's. I put my betta in the tank once it was all set up and he was on for about 3 minutes until he spotted one of the guppies and began flaring at it and attacking it, so I removed him. Ah well.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Are you the same Anasfire that use to be here? If so then welcome back. Been awhile.

Is the tank cycled? If not the neons (which need to be in larger groups) will not fare well.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Guppies are a fish that can't be with betta. Fins are too long and flowy.


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## anasfire23 (Jan 19, 2005)

Yes i'm the anasfire that used to come on alot. I went through a totally fish free period of about 8 months so there wasn't much use coming here! No the tank is not cycled and I know everyone says that's a big no-no but I set it all up over 48 hours ago and all the fish are doing very well and i've had fish before that i've put in uncycled tanks and they've been fine. I've been feeding them up on live foods like bloodworms and brine shrimp and they love it! Also been checking the ph once a day and it's all normal. So everything should be fine. Thanks for your concern though.

Mwah


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## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Just because you have had fish in an uncycled tank before that were fine (you think - it can supposedly shorten their lifespans) doesn't mean it's always like that. If it was always like that, there wouldn't be a thing called new tank syndrome. People new to the hobby wouldn't get fed up after 2-3 months and put their tanks in the attic/basement never to be used again. Sometimes things are ok and sometimes not. You need to be monitoring your ammonia levels. It also can take 2 months for a tank to cycle not just a few days. The problem isnt usually encountered in the first few days. It takes time for the ammonia to build up and then the nitrites to build up. Thats where you can run into problems. You should read the sticky in the general freshwater section titled "The Nitrogen Cycle" Good luck with your tank.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2006)

I've setup a 30 gallong tank with a big CT Betta with 16 male/female guppies with no problems whatsoever. Of course there are floating plants too for the Betta so maybe that's why he doesn't chase the guppies. Or maybe there are just too many guppies for him to bother. I also have a veil angel, 4 gourmis, two lyretail mollies, and hifin lyretail swordtail in the same tank and he doesn't chase them either. Sometimes he would flare up if fish get close or pester him, but he doesn't actually bite them. With their long fins they're too slow to actually catch up to and do any damage to the other fish anyway even if they wanted to. The other fish don't nip at the Betta's fins either. A 15 gallon tank is half the size of a 30 gallon so you may get different results with the fish I mentioned.



Zoe said:


> Guppies are a fish that can't be with betta. Fins are too long and flowy.


Wrong....the fact an old fish starts attacking a new fish may have nothing to do with the species of fish not being compaitble with each other.

In fact I've had a couple of *peaceful* gold barbs attack a new tiger barb 4 times their size. Are you telling me that gold barbs can't be put together with tiger barbs because they attacked the tiger barb? :lol:


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

PaPeRo said:


> I've setup a 30 gallong tank with a big CT Betta with 16 male/female guppies with no problems whatsoever. Of course there are floating plants too for the Betta so maybe that's why he doesn't chase the guppies. Or maybe there are just too many guppies for him to bother. I also have a veil angel, 4 gourmis, two lyretail mollies, and hifin lyretail swordtail in the same tank and he doesn't chase them either. Sometimes he would flare up if fish get close or pester him, but he doesn't actually bite them. With their long fins they're too slow to actually catch up to and do any damage to the other fish anyway even if they wanted to. The other fish don't nip at the Betta's fins either. A 15 gallon tank is half the size of a 30 gallon so you may get different results with the fish I mentioned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you have a picture of your tank? how many betta you have? all the fishes you can put in there with no problem sounds amazing to me.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

aaa said:


> you have a picture of your tank? how many betta you have? all the fishes you can put in there with no problem sounds amazing to me.


Actually there are a lot more fish in the tank that I have not mentioned. I setup a 30 gallon acrylic SeaClear tropical community tank for my sister a couple of months ago. It has a Emperor 400 Bio-wheel HOB filter and a Visitherm Stealth 100W heater and full spectrum lighting Hagen Life Glow 2 flourescent . Gravel is medium round pebbles. It also has a few pieces of Malaysian driftwood and live plants some of them I let float for now because I haven't anch0red them down yet. The inhabitants in the tank are:

2 cherry barbs
2 gold barbs
1 tiger barb
1 green tiger barb
1 albino tiger barb
3 white clouds
4 zebra danios
1 red eye tetra 
1 black lyretail molly
1 platinum lyretail molly
2 topsail platy
2 mickymouse platy
1 tuxedo platy
1 sunburst platy
1 hifin lyretail swordtail
2 honey dwarf gourami
2 dwarf/powder blue gourami
1 marble veil Angel
1 CT betta
16 guppies
3 ghost shrimp
1 cherry fire shrimp
1 Amano shrimp

That is my sister's tank which I setup. My personal tank is only 2.5 gallons has driftwood, live plants, Red Sea Nano HOB filter and 25W Visitherm Stealth heater. The 30 gallon tank was originally mine but I sold it to my sister because I needed money.:fun: 

I currently have a VT Betta in my tank and a ghost shrimp. I used to have other fish but they died from disease. I used to have a cherry barb, black lyretail molly, wag platy, two guppies, and black variatus. Smaller tanks are a lot more difficult than large tanks because the water can change very fast especially when you have so many fish in a 2.5 gal tank.:fish:

I will get some pics of the tank I setup for my sister when I go up to her house to rearrange the plants.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Sorry, I call shenanigans. No way all of those fish are residing together in a 30g tank without some major issues.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

"No way all of those fish are residing together in a 30g tank without some major issues" 
At least not for long... the bioload has been way over exeeded here... a lot of incompatible species as well. Its only a matter of time.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Sorry, I call shenanigans. No way all of those fish are residing together in a 30g tank without some major issues.


Then tell me which ones should be fighting or not compatible since you seem to be so knowledgeable. If you haven't done it then you have nothing to really stand on except hearsay and theory.  

BTW all of the fish that are currently in that 30 gallon tank are community fish and specifically selected for thier peaceful nature.  

The trick is actually to introduce the fish at the same time or in groups. In fact I still remember the order in which the fish were stocked.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> At least not for long... the bioload has been way over exeeded here... a lot of incompatible species as well. Its only a matter of time.


Actually the bioload has not been exceeded but thanks for the tip. 

The filter is good for up to 80 gallon tanks and the tank is planted with live plants. You're talking to an expert here. 

Some people THINK they know everything but without trying it, it's mere assumption based on theory and not experience. I did it so I KNOW it's doable.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Tiger barbs are in no way peaceful. Angels will eat small fishes (say good bye to your guppies, white clouds and danios). Gourami's of the same sex are territorial to one another... so you'll end up with one dominant fish... lemmie ask you something, how long have you been keeping fish??? I would be highly surpised that you've done this for as long as anyone here who has been responding to this thread. Also, do you have any idea what the "nitrogen cycle" is and what your "bioload" is on a tank? A 30 gallon cannot support that many fish for long.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

The bioload HAS been exeeded... doesn't matter the size of the filter... its a matter of space, 02 content, DISEASE from an over crowded tank and a bunch of other variables... none of which are relieved by a larger filter to the point that the bioload is increased dramatically.


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

You need to tone down your attitude a little bit, PaPeRo. Almost all of your posts on this forum have been rude, know-it-all posts.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm with Tina - no way all those fish are in that tank unless they are all fry.
If all those fish are in that tank, and have been for more than a couple weeks, then I have a dozen adult pacus in my 8gal.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/2483-our-view-stocking-levels-stunting-fish.html 

I think this is all that can be said here. This is the fishforums final stand on the issue.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> Tiger barbs are in no way peaceful.


You're right, they're semiagressive just like angels so it's pretty moot. 
The fact the two gold barbs were harassing the albino tiger barb 4 times its size says something about the tiger barb doesn't it? 



> Angels will eat small fishes (say good bye to your guppies, white clouds and danios).


Not this angel. In fact this angel has a hard time getting to the flakes fast enough to eat as the guppies eat most of them.:lol: 




> Gourami's of the same sex are territorial to one another... so you'll end up with one dominant fish... lemmie ask you something, how long have you been keeping fish??? I would be highly surpised that you've done this for as long as anyone here who has been responding to this thread.


I've been keeping fish for over a decade. In fact I had a saltwater tank a few years ago. 




> Also, do you have any idea what the "nitrogen cycle" is and what your "bioload" is on a tank? A 30 gallon cannot support that many fish for long.


You seem to have a superiority complex with your assumptions. How did you become a mod?

The "bioload" takes many factors into consideration not just the simple "inch of fish per gallon" that most people go by. Other equally important factors are filter capacity, water change frequency, airation, and live plants. I'll let you figure out how those affect "bioload" since you seem to be the expert around here.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Lydia said:


> You need to tone down your attitude a little bit, PaPeRo. Almost all of your posts on this forum have been rude, know-it-all posts.


No they aren't. I only became rude in the Betta fighting video politically correct BS thread. Feel free to quote my posts previous to those you claim to be rude. In fact the only reason why I became rude in that Betta thread is due to others being rude and a know it all. Funny how aaa agreed that Bettas do CHOOSE to fight or not.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

They can choose to fight in the wild or in large tanks with sufficient cover and enough territory for both. That's obvious, otherwise every betta in the wild would be in one huge betta-fight right now. They can live in the same body of water without much fighting provided they have their own territories and enough cover.
Not so in a tiny cup.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Zoe said:


> They can choose to fight in the wild or in large tanks with sufficient cover and enough territory for both. That's obvious, otherwise every betta in the wild would be in one huge betta-fight right now. They can live in the same body of water without much fighting provided they have their own territories and enough cover.
> Not so in a tiny cup.


Wrong again. Flaring and fighting are two different things. If one Betta chooses not to fight, the other Betta doesn't attack, it just flarres.;-) 

Again it's called choice.



Fishfirst said:


> http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/2483-our-view-stocking-levels-stunting-fish.html
> 
> I think this is all that can be said here. This is the fishforums final stand on the issue.


Been there done that.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

You aren't getting it...

bioload is much more than your filter "rating" which I think is a bunch of hoowey anyway. You are missing the point that I made earlier... its not just your biological "bioload" it also has to do with a lot more than you've thought of. Inch per gallon is hoowey as well as you so blantently stated and the other factors you have considered have been known to increase your bioload slightly, but not to what you have in it. So I would imagine if I had a tank like that... oh wait... I would never have a tank like that because its boarderline animal cruelty. 

I think you've been on the forums long enough PaPeRo... and if your attitude doesn't change immediately you won't see yourself on here anymore. We stick by our views on overstocking here. And we like to keep this forum as friendly as possible. Unfortunately, you've seen yourself to be quite rude and very arrogant. And that is grounds for the termination of your stay here.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Not so in a little cup... As you said yourself, they are called siamese fighting fish. There is reason behind the name.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> You aren't getting it...
> 
> bioload is much more than your filter "rating" which I think is a bunch of hoowey anyway. You are missing the point that I made earlier... its not just your biological "bioload" it also has to do with a lot more than you've thought of. Inch per gallon is hoowey as well as you so blantently stated and the other factors you have considered have been known to increase your bioload slightly, but not to what you have in it. So I would imagine if I had a tank like that... oh wait... I would never have a tank like that because its boarderline animal cruelty.
> 
> I think you've been on the forums long enough PaPeRo... and if your attitude doesn't change immediately you won't see yourself on here anymore. We stick by our views on overstocking here. And we like to keep this forum as friendly as possible. Unfortunately, you've seen yourself to be quite rude and very arrogant. And that is grounds for the termination of your stay here.


Instead of continuing to use threats why don't you make a constructive argument *using specifics* as to why the "bioload" of the 30 gallon tank has been exceeded?



Zoe said:


> Not so in a little cup... As you said yourself, they are called siamese fighting fish. There is reason behind the name.


They still have a choice that's the point. They can run away or fight. That's called choice even though in a little cup, they will likely fight.  Looks like there's some backpedaling going on here and it's not by me.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

the only specific I need to make is the number of fish you have in a small 30 gallon tank. The tank is too crowded, which leads to disease, O2 depletion, and CO2 increase, which leads to a drop in pH, which leads to more stress, which leads to more disease. 

Also I don't think you understand that I'm not making threats, I'm telling you that your posts have been fairly rude and inconsiderate in your posts. I think you have been posting everything to get a rise out of people and I consider you a Troll to this forum.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> the only specific I need to make is the number of fish you have in a small 30 gallon tank.


Sorry but the number of fish is NOT a good metric in determining "bioload". That's equivalent to using "inch per gallon" metric which is total bull.



> The tank is too crowded


Says who?



> which leads to disease


No it doesn't. Most disease comes from unquarantined new fish. Again whether it's too crowded or not is up for debate.



> O2 depletion


The fish are breathing normally and don't stay at the surface. Also plants supply extra O2 along with plenty of airation from the filter which is rated at 400GPH.



> and CO2 increase


Used by plants



> which leads to a drop in pH


pH is fine even with the tannins leeching out from the driftwood and the supposed CO2 increase. Most of the fish in the tank like soft water too. Also pH stabilizers are available IF it becomes an issue not to mention water changes.



> which leads to more stress, which leads to more disease.


moot and moot


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I'm just gonna leave it at that... you don't believe me... give me a picture of it today... then a year from now we'll see if you have many of your fish left. 

I've seen overstocked tanks fail, I'll see them fail again... oh and btw, I've been in this hobby a decade longer than you... and I've seen tanks a lot less stocked than your tank fail misserably because of the afformentioned things I've stated... all it takes is for the electricity to go out.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> I'm just gonna leave it at that... you don't believe me... give me a picture of it today... then a year from now we'll see if you have many of your fish left.
> 
> I've seen overstocked tanks fail, I'll see them fail again... oh and btw, I've been in this hobby a decade longer than you... and I've seen tanks a lot less stocked than your tank fail misserably because of the afformentioned things I've stated... all it takes is for the electricity to go out.


I'll get pictures when I go up to my sister's house. She lives about 2 hours from me so it's going to be another 3 weeks before I get the pics. 

I can't guarantee that some fish won't die in a year since even noncrowed tanks will have fish die of disease once in awhile, but I'm positive it likely won't be compatibiliy or bioload related.

I've also seen heavily stocked tanks fail too by inexperienced or lazy fishkeepers. Finally electricity going out can be remedied with a UPS designed for high wattage computers.:fun:


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

the tank isn't even yours??? wow, then how can you guarentee such things??? You aren't monitoring anything over there...


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> the tank isn't even yours??? wow, then how can you guarentee such things??? You aren't monitoring anything over there...


Well he can guarantee it because he purposely sought out fish for their peaceful nature, like all the barbs.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I don't know about you boxermom... but I think I've had many of my freshwater community fish go over the 5 year mark as far as age... seems like a year is not very acceptible as far as death goes.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Agreed, even the basic guppy should live much longer than a year and personally, I consider anything less than a fish's full live span to be a failure on my part.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I agree... max life span is always what I shoot for as well.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> the tank isn't even yours??? wow, then how can you guarentee such things??? You aren't monitoring anything over there...


Why does it need to be mine? I set it up and I gave simple instructions to my sister on what to look for and how to test water etc. The majority of the fish were quarantined in a separate tank for a couple weeks. After that I came up to check on them and put them into the main tank. What's so strange about that?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

you guarentee things aren't happening when you AREN'T the one caring for the aquarium, you obviously rarely see this aquarium and oh btw, even an obnoxious amount of quarentine does not help if you don't treat for the possible diseases that my come about... AND many diseases are NOT part of a biological entity... they can be caused by stress alone, in that reguard, I think your whole arguement is, well... "moot"


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Well he can guarantee it because he purposely sought out fish for their peaceful nature, like all the barbs.


Have you actually owned any tiger barbs in a community tank vs reading about them in self help books? Your one liners don't really contribute to the discussion. I'm still waiting for your excuse/reasons of why my sister's tank is shannigans since there's no way those fish can live together in harmony according to you.:lol:


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I have personally kept several tiger barbs in several situations... AND I have several other tanks that I care for that have tiger barbs in several situations. Tiger barbs are nasty mothers... no doubts in my mind... also, who says that books aren't a good way to learn about compatibility??? I mean, these guys I would trust with my own tank, they are professional biologists they have tanks of their own, why can't that be a legitiment source???


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> you guarentee things aren't happening when you AREN'T the one caring for the aquarium, you obviously rarely see this aquarium and oh btw, even an obnoxious amount of quarentine does not help if you don't treat for the possible diseases that my come about... AND many diseases are NOT part of a biological entity... they can be caused by stress alone, in that reguard, I think your whole arguement is, well... "moot"


First of all there's a thing called email and the telephone.

Second through these mystery things called email and the telephone, I asked my sister what the quarantined fish conditions were with specific instructions on what to look for.

Finally none of the quarantined fish developed any disease so no treatment was needed. Even if treatment was needed, it could be easily added by my sister.



Fishfirst said:


> I have personally kept several tiger barbs in several situations... AND I have several other tanks that I care for that have tiger barbs in several situations. Tiger barbs are nasty mothers... no doubts in my mind... also, who says that books aren't a good way to learn about compatibility??? I mean, these guys I would trust with my own tank, they are professional biologists they have tanks of their own, why can't that be a legitiment source???


Well the tiger barbs we bought weren't agressive to the other fish. One was even harassed by the existing "peaceful" gold barbs. Tiber barbs are categorized as semi-agressive like angels and the angel isn't harassing anybody in the tank either.

Books are a good resource but they don't substitute for actual experience and don't cover all combinations of setups.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Yes as a matter of fact I do have 10 assorted tiger barbs. Because I actually know what I'm doing, having done loads of research rather than live experiments on them, I know how many is required to minimize aggression and what appropriate tankmates are for them.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

ugh... 


diseases such as the most common disease like "ich" can create very few visual signals or no signals at all that the fish has ich... this is why experienced fish keepers like myself, medicate fish for ich even when there isn't any symptoms that occur in quarentine, because we all know it is still somewhere in the water, and its still somewhere on the fish, we just can't see it... it is ignorant to think that you can see a disease in quarentine every time... and with so many fish, you have a great chance of having something slip by until its too late.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> ugh...
> 
> 
> diseases such as the most common disease like "ich" can create very few visual signals or no signals at all that the fish has ich... this is why experienced fish keepers like myself, medicate fish for ich even when there isn't any symptoms that occur in quarentine, because we all know it is still somewhere in the water, and its still somewhere on the fish, we just can't see it... it is ignorant to think that you can see a disease in quarentine every time... and with so many fish, you have a great chance of having something slip by until its too late.


Actually if the temperature is around 78F, the life cycle of ich is accelerated and completes in less than 2 weeks, therefore if the fish has ich, you will defiitely see it within that timeframe. Also the quarantine tank is pretreated with kordon's prevent ich prior to the fish put into the quarantine tank.



Fishfirst said:


> I have personally kept several tiger barbs in several situations... AND I have several other tanks that I care for that have tiger barbs in several situations. Tiger barbs are nasty mothers... no doubts in my mind... also, who says that books aren't a good way to learn about compatibility??? I mean, these guys I would trust with my own tank, they are professional biologists they have tanks of their own, why can't that be a legitiment source???


And what kind of aggression have you personally perceived to conclude that they're agressive toward other fish? I've personally seen the tiger barb "sniffing" the lyretail molly, but that's hardly agression.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Many fish can be carriers for a disease or prone to a certain condition, which will only manifest itself in times of poor water conditions or high stress.

How is it this fellow is still around? He's obviously only here to spout out moronities in an attempt to get people upset. He's not contributing any usefull information or asking any real questions. His one tank, which isn't actually his and which I don't believe exists, couldn't possibly survive for more than a very short period of time and borders on animal cruelty.

Ich can lie dormant in a tank. It does not necessarily go through the lifecycle, unless fish are weakened from stress or disease.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

yeah... the life cycle is completed in about that time... but ich doesn't need to show itself... it can hide in the gills of the fish... you have a lot of gills in your tank don't ya?


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> yeah... the life cycle is completed in about that time... but ich doesn't need to show itself... it can hide in the gills of the fish... you have a lot of gills in your tank don't ya?


At 78F the life cycle completes in less than 7 days. The extra week is just extra headroom for it to show up on fins.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Many fish can be carriers for a disease or prone to a certain condition, which will only manifest itself in times of poor water conditions or high stress.


Really? Wow I didn't know that...



> He's not contributing any usefull information or asking any real questions.


I don't ask questions because i know all the answers that is worth knowing.



> His one tank, which isn't actually his and which I don't believe exists, couldn't possibly survive for more than a very short period of time and borders on animal cruelty.


Actually I have a 2.5 gallong tank. The 30 gallon was orginially mine but I sold it to my sister. Also your thin skoineed poliically correct BS is getting on my nerves.  



> Ich can lie dormant in a tank. It does not necessarily go through the lifecycle, unless fish are weakened from stress or disease.


Wrong. Ich goes through a life cycle. It doesn't lay dormant. The life cycle can be shortened with higher temperatures.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Zoe said:


> How is it this fellow is still around? He's obviously only here to spout out moronities in an attempt to get people upset. He's not contributing any usefull information or asking any real questions. His one tank, which isn't actually his and which I don't believe exists, couldn't possibly survive for more than a very short period of time and borders on animal cruelty.


Kinda wondering that myself. 

FF, are you done beating your head against an idiotic rock yet?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

anasfire23 said:


> I'm getting a new 2ft tank (no idea how many litres or gallons it will take up but it's big!)tomorrow and I'm planning on planting it out and making it a tropical tank and was thinking of putting some guppies, tetra's (neon) and maybe an angel fish or two in it. I'm just wondering if there are any fish i SHOULDN'T put the betta in with? I know that fantail goldies like to eat betta's fins but seeing as this will be a warm water tank I won't be keeping them. Are there any other fish that will do the same?Nibble the betta's fins or perhaps he'll attack or that will attack him? He's a CT so last thing I want is his fins to be nibbled and damaged. Also can anyone give me some ph level advice? Do all fish including betta's like the ph to be nutural? I've never monitored the ph level in ANY of my tanks before and managed to keep fish for a while, but I want this new tank to be a major success so figured I should learn.


Sorry we've gotten so off topic... here is my recommendation, first off lose the angels... angels like all cichlids tend to be nippy anyway, not a good combo with the betta, of coarse, I've seen them together but all too often it doesn't work out. 
I wouldn't worry so much about the guppies... Only a select few male betta's will attack fancy guppies, I've kept several male bettas with guppies. Neons, or any small tetra for that matter would work, a larger school will keep them comfy. I would also suggest cory cats, a small school will keep your tank clean of excess food. Like you said, the goldfish are no-no's. And pretty much any overly aggressive fish such as large gouramis, most barbs (an exception would be cherry barbs), cichlids, and large bodied tetras (although I've have both black widows and a betta in together in one of my smaller tanks currently, the black widows may pick on the betta depending on their personalities). pH should be slighly acidic (6.5) to slightly basic (7.5) to accomidate all fish.


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

PaPeRo, your tank did have problem. i ask for a photo because i wonder how would those fishes live together. in my experience, the guppies will not have long to live. angelfish do love to eat small fish, especially the guppy that my friend cull. 

plus email and phone is not enough. nothing beat actual observation. tell your sister to go on this forum, it is really helpful. 

by the way, your tank is overcrowded. your fishes maybe small now but you need to plan for the future. the guppies and other small fish has no future, either sell them or get another tank for them. your tank may not seems to have any problem now but it is going to be like a time bomb and explode and all of your fishes can died in a few days and i don't want to see that happen. 

when disease spread in your tank, it will cause trouble for you too. ich is a more mild disease. some disease can kill all of your fish within a day. the sign doesn't should up until it is too late to cure the fish. 

anyway... just my word of advice. don't use this kind of in your face attitude when you are talking to people. you could get banned real soon.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Kinda wondering that myself.
> 
> FF, are you done beating your head against an idiotic rock yet?


Are you done dodging my questions?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

This quote shows that you have not been a serious fish keeper for long... 

"I don't ask questions because i know all the answers that is worth knowing."


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

"And what kind of aggression have you personally perceived to conclude that they're agressive toward other fish? I've personally seen the tiger barb "sniffing" the lyretail molly, but that's hardly agression."

LOL... I've seen tiger barbs gang up on several of the inhabitants... I don't work at a fish store for nothing you know, and I'm not the aquatics specialist for nothing... its my JOB to know how these fish will do together, and have many many experiances throughout the last 20 years to back me up.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

aaa said:


> in my experience, the guppies will not have long to live. angelfish do love to eat small fish, especially the guppy that my friend cull.


The tank contains one small angel. We'll see what happens in a year.



> plus email and phone is not enough. nothing beat actual observation. tell your sister to go on this forum, it is really helpful.


I set her tank so it's my responsibility to keep everything under control. She basically does the observation, feeding, water testing and water changes.



> by the way, your tank is overcrowded. your fishes maybe small now but you need to plan for the future. the guppies and other small fish has no future, either sell them or get another tank for them. your tank may not seems to have any problem now but it is going to be like a time bomb and explode and all of your fishes can died in a few days and i don't want to see that happen.


Actually I did plan for the future that's why i chose fish that don't grow to be more than 3" except for the Angel and molly. I also chose peaceful community fish. The guoramis are also dwarves and peaceful too.



> when disease spread in your tank, it will cause trouble for you too. ich is a more mild disease. some disease can kill all of your fish within a day. the sign doesn't should up until it is too late to cure the fish.


That goes for all tanks.



Fishfirst said:


> LOL... I've seen tiger barbs gang up on several of the inhabitants... I don't work at a fish store for nothing you know, and I'm not the aquatics specialist for nothing... its my JOB to know how these fish will do together, and have many many experiances throughout the last 20 years to back me up.


That question wasn't directed at you..LOL.

BTW there are only 3 tiger barbs total in the tank and they don't school together. they're different variations..tiger, albino, and green tiger. These won't be ganging up on anybody.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

it wasn't???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishfirst
I have personally kept several tiger barbs in several situations... AND I have several other tanks that I care for that have tiger barbs in several situations. Tiger barbs are nasty mothers... no doubts in my mind... also, who says that books aren't a good way to learn about compatibility??? I mean, these guys I would trust with my own tank, they are professional biologists they have tanks of their own, why can't that be a legitiment source??? 


And what kind of aggression have you personally perceived to conclude that they're agressive toward other fish? I've personally seen the tiger barb "sniffing" the lyretail molly, but that's hardly agression.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

PaPeRo said:


> BTW there are only 3 tiger barbs total in the tank and they don't school together. they're different variations..tiger, albino, and green tiger. These won't be ganging up on anybody.


Then there's definitely something wrong. First, 3 is an inappropriate number of tigers, and second, they should all school together. I have regular, blushing, green and albino tiger barbs and they school together constantly, and are joined by the black ruby barbs as well. Tiger barbs are well known as shoaling fish and the variety differences don't matter.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

> it wasn't???


It was directed towards this post below. I wrongly quoted you. Hey I'm not the lynch mob interogating the newcomer so misquotes are bound to happen...LOL



Boxermom said:


> Yes as a matter of fact I do have 10 assorted tiger barbs. Because I actually know what I'm doing, having done loads of research rather than live experiments on them, I know how many is required to minimize aggression and what appropriate tankmates are for them.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

its been to my experience that the less tiger barbs you have... the more aggressive they are to inhabitants and not conspecifics... your thinking is reverse of what many believe and have observed.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

lynch mob? I think you have been mistaken at our intentions... it is you who got defensive about your stocking and how you know more than everyone else here.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Then there's definitely something wrong. First, 3 is an inappropriate number of tigers, and second, they should all school together. I have regular, blushing, green and albino tiger barbs and they school together constantly, and are joined by the black ruby barbs as well. Tiger barbs are well known as shoaling fish and the variety differences don't matter.


I doubt there's anything wrong. In fact only two of the white clouds school while the 3rd is pretty independent and those were introduced at the same time. The two cherry barbs don't school either. They are pretty independent and have their own hiding places at opposite ends of the tank. They weren't introduced at the same time. The two gold barbs only come together half of the time and are fairly independent. They only came together to gang up on the albino tiger.:lol:


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

swordtail do over 3 inches and that's not the only problem. overcrowded tank doesn't mean when the fish can't turn around. it means that the bioload is over the limit. fish create waste and bacteria break them down. when fish create much more waste then bacteria can handle, the toxic chemical build up and that's exactly what will happen to your tank. you may not notice anything wrong but one day it will strike you. don't have to listen to anyone here, time will prove who is right and who is wrong. but i don't want to see fish died and so i offer you advice. you don't have to listen. as you said, you brought the fish and it is your responsibility to take care of it. if anything happen to them, it is your fault. it is up to you to decide that you want to listen to other or not.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> lynch mob? I think you have been mistaken at our intentions... it is you who got defensive about your stocking and how you know more than everyone else here.


I got defensive because of the fact it's supposedly all made up because it's impossible to be true according to some.:lol:


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

"I doubt there's anything wrong. In fact only two of the white clouds school while the 3rd is pretty independent and those were introduced at the same time. The two cherry barbs don't school either. They are pretty independent and have their own hiding places at opposite ends of the tank. They weren't introduced at the same time. The two gold barbs only come together half of the time and are fairly independent. They only came together to gang up on the albino tiger."

This clearly indicates that there is a problem... the problem being that these fish are not in proper schooling numbers, say 6 and up. PaPeRo... I could cite a hundred legitimate sources saying what we are saying right now. What you are doing is cruel, inhumane, and goes against fishforums.com's philosophy. Get your last words in tonight... come the morning you will not be allowed on fishforums.com 

Everyone else, please, ignore his posts. He will be dealt with in a timely mannor.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> "I doubt there's anything wrong. In fact only two of the white clouds school while the 3rd is pretty independent and those were introduced at the same time. The two cherry barbs don't school either. They are pretty independent and have their own hiding places at opposite ends of the tank. They weren't introduced at the same time. The two gold barbs only come together half of the time and are fairly independent. They only came together to gang up on the albino tiger."
> 
> This clearly indicates that there is a problem... the problem being that these fish are not in proper schooling numbers, say 6 and up. PaPeRo... I could cite a hundred legitimate sources saying what we are saying right now. What you are doing is cruel, inhumane, and goes against fishforums.com's philosophy. Get your last words in tonight... come the morning you will not be allowed on fishforums.com
> 
> Everyone else, please, ignore his posts. He will be dealt with in a timely mannor.


There is no scientific fact that says you need a minimum of 6 tiger barbs in a tank. That's like saying 3 tetras are the wrong number for a tank. There is no right or wrong schooling number. Even ONE barb can be housed in the tank with no ill effect. If they swim freely and eat and not hide all the time then they are not stressed. Feel free to site scientific evidence to prove otherwise. Yeah because I only have 3 tiger barbs I'm cruel and inhumane...what a joke. Go ahead and ban me I don't really give a sh*t. You just want an excuse to do it no matter how valid my arguments are. I guess you're afraid the actual pictures will show up in a few weeks. Hey that's your credibility problem not mine. I guess you don't have much confidence in your claims?



aaa said:


> swordtail do over 3 inches and that's not the only problem. overcrowded tank doesn't mean when the fish can't turn around. it means that the bioload is over the limit. fish create waste and bacteria break them down. when fish create much more waste then bacteria can handle, the toxic chemical build up and that's exactly what will happen to your tank. you may not notice anything wrong but one day it will strike you. don't have to listen to anyone here, time will prove who is right and who is wrong. but i don't want to see fish died and so i offer you advice. you don't have to listen. as you said, you brought the fish and it is your responsibility to take care of it. if anything happen to them, it is your fault. it is up to you to decide that you want to listen to other or not.


I already addressed the bioload issue, you must not have paid attention. 


Again I have over a decade of fish keeping experience both fresh and salt water. I know what I'm doing. Oh and long fin length doesn't count. I'm talking about average body size.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I think your example proves what I'm saying already... the fact that yours in lower numbers do NOT school, and mine, and boxermoms in higher numbers DO school...


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/BarbsDaniosRasborasArt.htm

Read this article by a biologist and aquarist.


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## aaa (Jan 19, 2005)

it is up to you, it's your fish. you don't have to listen to anyone like i said before and don't seems like you ever will. there is no point to keep those topic going, so i will stop right here.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

This guy has already proven that he doesn't know anything but thinks he knows everything. He's just spouting nonsense, doesn't want to learn how aquariums really work... Don't worry about it anymore, fishfirst


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

If you know what you are doing then why are you making mistakes that a bigger would? A decade of experience has not served you well. I've had twice that, and mine have been quality experiances... not experimentation and exploitation of fishes.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I'm done as well... this guy has worn out his welcome here.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/BarbsDaniosRasborasArt.htm
> 
> Read this article by a biologist and aquarist.


It says minimum 3 and in odd numbers. It's a recommendation not a scientific law.  



Fishfirst said:


> If you know what you are doing then why are you making mistakes that a bigger would? A decade of experience has not served you well. I've had twice that, and mine have been quality experiances... not experimentation and exploitation of fishes.


Yet you can't point out any valid mistakes.:lol:



Fishfirst said:


> I think your example proves what I'm saying already... the fact that yours in lower numbers do NOT school, and mine, and boxermoms in higher numbers DO school...


No sh*t Sherlock. Schooling is not a requirement. Some people don't even have plants in thier tanks...LMAO...I guess that is cruel too heh?:lol:

It's all relative. 

If you don't want to be cruel then shouldn't even have pet fish...what a hippocrate.



Zoe said:


> This guy has already proven that he doesn't know anything but thinks he knows everything. He's just spouting nonsense, doesn't want to learn how aquariums really work... Don't worry about it anymore, fishfirst


Is that why you think ich can stay dormant?:lol: 

What you call dormant is in fact a slowed life cycle due to low temps, but I gues you knew that eh?:lol:

Here's a thread you need to read to update yourself.

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/diseases/11418-raising-temperature-treat-ick.html

Better hit the books because you need to learn much. C'mon lets see some more hand waving with nothing to back it up.:lol:



Zoe said:


> Guppies are a fish that can't be with betta. Fins are too long and flowy.


LMAO...16 guppies and one male CT betta, no problems whatsoever. Try again next time.:lol:


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Stop pretending you've beat people arguments when you havent. 

Now I am done with this loser. Glad he's banned, not glad we had to hijack this thread.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

good ridence!


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## anasfire23 (Jan 19, 2005)

GOOD GOD! I didn't realise my seemingly innocent request for opinions would turn into such a debate. How's this for an idea.. Everyone has different opinions and the opinions of others should be respected along with their decisions because frankly there is nothing we can do about what others do in the privacy of their own homes with their own fish and ********************ing about it on a forum isn't going to solve anything!

Be happy everyone!


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