# Suggestions for improvement???



## Guest

Hello

I have had a saltwater tank for about 7 months. We have crushed coral on the bottom with about 4 pounds of live rock. It is a 29 gallon tank with one powerhead I can't remember the size, but was the right size for this tank. Undergravel filter. Only have a small mechanical filter, I believe it is the size for a 15 gallon tank. 

Inhabitants fish:
Tomata clownfish (1)
Blue-finned damsels(2)
Yellow tail damsel(1)
Bi-color blenny(1)

Inhabitants invertebrates:
Coral Banded Boxing Shrimp (my personal favorite) (1)
Dwarf Blue-Legged Hermit Crab (1)
Emerald Crab (1)
6 Red-Banded Saltwater Snails

I have found that I have only needed to change water once every 3 weeks, but am having problems with black and brown algae. Snails keep walls of tank clean but not fake plants, Hermit crab works on these some and blenny. Also, my first live rock had tons of living stuff on it when I bought it but now everything is gone. It keeps green and maroon algea on it but no tube worms or other growths. My last bought live rock (4 pounds) is starting to die back. Can I do something to help this? The LFS person said I needed to add calcium. I did not realize I had to do something different to keep live rock going.

Thanks for all your suggestions. Also my 12 year old would like to get another fish, we just lost a scissortail goby (fatal accident involving leaving the top open and an aggressive damsel). Any suggestions. We would like a fish that swims in the upper 2/3 of the tank. Seems like everything we have stays on the bottom or in the rocks.

Thanks again.


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## Fishfirst

You are having trouble with algae because you probably have a nitrate problem... every 3 weeks isn't enough water changes even if you have the proper filtration. What are your other water parameters... your tank seems overstocked... the Blue finned damsel will most likely get really aggressive as it gets older. Also that tomato clown gets around 5 inches long! How often are you replacing filter cartridges? Also crushed coral in my experience is just a nitrate sink. Also the live rock is "dying" because you probably don't have enough lighting to keep it going. You need compact florecents to keep live rock going. Also weekly maintenance of scraping the algae off the sides with a mag-float or other device will help greatly. But most importantly are water changes.


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## TheOldSalt

Undergravel filters are, like trickle filters, little more than nitrate machines in a saltwater tank. That's why we hardly use them anymore with saltwater. They not only produce nitrate, but they suck up a lot of oxygen. This combination is contributing greatly to your algae problem.

You mentioned "maroon" algae. By this do you mean the hard encrusting stuff that came on your live rock, or the fuzzy stuff that looks like some sort of mutant red velvet? This stuff is actually cyanobacteria if it's the velvety kind, and it grows when the kinds of algae you WANT to grow can't grow. Water movement, dissolved gases ratios, nitrogenous compound levels ( like nitrate ) and the amount and spectrum of lighting all contribute to the growth or retardation of different types of algae. Since your live rock is dying, I'm going to assume that things aren't well in one or maybe all of these categories.

I'm also going to assume that your primary culprit is your lighting, since this is the most common mistake beginners make. Making a suitable upgrade will go a long way toward solving your problems.

Judging by the too-small amount of live rock in your tank to be useful, I am guessing that you got it mainly for decoration? Maybe you thought that 4 lbs would be enough?
Well, live rock needs the same care that any reef tank needs if it is to survive. You won't find an undergravel filter in a successful reef tank. 
Good lighting and clean water are two very important ingredients, but without some calcium and other trace elements the coralline algae ( the pink and purple stuff that makes live rock look nice ) will die. 
There are plenty of products on the market which can help you keep your live rock happy. Some are better than others, and some are trickier to use than others. One good middle-ground product is called "Araga-milk." It is easy to use and can't be overdosed. It's not chemically complete, though, so you'll need some trace element additives to go along with it. Again, these come in a wide range, but one called "Combi-San" is a pretty good one. Neither of these is the very best, but they're both still quite good, cheap, effective, and very easy to use.

Whew!
What a rough bunch of thugs you have in your tank. There's a lot of trouble brewing in there, you betcha.

The best advice I can give you right now is to figure out just what your ultimate goal is for this tank. After that you can take the steps needed to get what you want. This setup you currently have isn't working because you created a hybrid system which detracts from itself instead enhancing itself. Don't feel bad; we've all done it. The trick is learning what to do the next time. You've come to the right place to find out all you need to know about making your setup work, be it as a reef, fish-only, or the fish & rock setup it looks like you were attempting. tell us your goal, and we'll help you reach it.


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## wrasser

hey i dont know if you do, but when you change the water vaccum the crushed coral. then change the water it will help bring down the nitrates.


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## wrasser

oh yea and maybe buy a pygme angle to help with the alage.


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## Tipsy

A mantis shrimp will be a great addition. Just kidding. I think you have enough fish, explain to your child that, Its good enough because your tank is basically going to be called. Grand Theft Auto:Hybrid Reef lol.

With algae if its on the walls try a magnet scrubber called mag float or w/e.


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## redpaulhus

wrasser @ 4/7/2005 said:


> oh yea and maybe buy a pygme angle to help with the alage.


Do NOT buy a pygmy angel - as others have noted, your tank is already pretty overstocked and underfiltered (with less than optimal technology).

Buy a good book - Bob Fenner's Concientious Marine Aquarist perhaps. Read up on modern approaches to marine aquarium design and upkeep. 

As was already noted - decide what you really want to keep.

Then rebuild your system towards that goal - maybe with another 20lbs of liverock, quality lighting, and a good protein skimmer. Remove the evil undergravel filter and crushed coral. Remove any fish that you don't want long term. 
Start doing smaller water changes more often if needed.

If you've been supporting the store the recommeded an UG filter for a marine tank - find a store where they've actually read an aquarium book in the last 20 years. 

As far as the dwarf or pygmy angel goes - they would make an algae problem worse not better. 
a) they will only graze algae, not remove it
b) they will need more food than just algae
c) they add biomass to the tank - move fish equals more fish poop equals more fetilizer equals more algae 
d) "algae eating" fish never solve algae problems - because they don't remove anything from the ecosystem, they just change its form. Algae becomes fecal matter, which becomes more algae. Nutrient export mechanisms are needed (skimmers, macro-algae refugiums, water changes)
e) I suspect that a dwarf angel would quickly sicken in the current environment - between the nitrates and lack of enough liverock/sponges to graze, plus the stress from the existing fishes harrassing them.

Last thought - tube worms and other liverock "critters" need to feed on something - I suspect that you were not providing a well thought out menu for the "critters" that are now "missing" - more liverock would help (as lots of reproducing inverts feed other inverts), as would livesand (ditto) but a better solution would be an attached refugium (lots of info available in books and online about refugiums).

Another solution for feather dusters, tube worms, etc is to feed them a product such as DT's Pytoplankton, etc, but in your case right now that would be a bad idea - there is already far too much of a nutrient imbalance in your system. Once all of the other systemic issues are resolved a phytoplankton feeding regimen would be benificial, but until then it would cause more cyanobacteria and other problems.


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## wrasser

redpaulhus is correct for the most part. the four fish you have are fine for a 29 gal.your water is inbalanced. a water change every week will help bring down parameters.after you get them down you could do a water change every two weeks and see were you stand. a pygme angle will be the last thing to worrie about in the tank. the inverts help on the fecal matter as will tube worms, feather dusters,etc. the pygme angle will swim at all levels of the tank. just stay on top of the water parameters and everything else will come together


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## Fishfirst

actually snails and other detritus eaters don't eat fish poop either, its the bacteria that breaks that down


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## wrasser

what is detritus?


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## redpaulhus

> what is detritus


From biology-online.org:


> Undissolved organic or inorganic matter resulting from the decomposition of parent material.


From Dictionary.com:


> Loose matter resulting from the wearing away or disintegration of a tissue or substance


Hopefully I'll be more than "mostly right" this time.
Should I instead recommend adding more fish to someone who has very obvious existing nutrient export issues ? In an extremely young tank ? Is that more than mostly right, or is that just plain wrong ?

A pygmy angel of the _Centropyge _ genus would be one of the aboloute worst possible things to put in that tank at this time, for dozens of reasons.
A few of them:

That tank is too small for an adult female Tomato Clown (_Amphiprion frenatus_) to co-habitate with a _Centropyge_.

The smaller "pygmy" _Centropyge_ such as _Centropyge argi_, the "Cherub", would have compatibility issues with the yellow-tail blue damsels - I do not recommend putting this fish with any other blue fish in less than 100g.

There isn't enough liverock in there to keep a dwarf angel healthy - I generally recommend at least 30lbs of rock for a hardy _Centropyge_ in a lightly stocked 30g tank, with more rock in a bigger tank needed for many of these angels.

Nitrate levels high enough to cause the algae problems noted will a) make for an unhealthy angel and b) get worse with an angel in the tank.

Many of the _Centropyge_ angels are extremely shy in a new environment, without plenty of hiding places and quiet tankmates they frequently fail to aclimate well to the new environment (wasting away slowly).

Those "bluefin" damsels (_Paraglyphidodon melas_) will eventually reach 5" long - and will beat on the smaller angelfish in such a small tank, almost as severely as the adult clown will.

A large percentage of the _centropyge_ angels in the hobby are collected using substandard collecting methods. You'd be surprised not only by the percentage look bad when they arrive and die within a week at the LFS, but by the percentage that look great, feed well, and are dead within two months (often due to cyanide poisoning during collection). I don't recommend these angels for anyone without a proper quarantine system and protocol in place.

Personally - I generally recommend about one 3-5" fish per square foot of surface area *in a one year old tank* using modern methods - this stocking level seems to keep maint. reasonable, lowers interspecies agression, and keeps health issues to a minimum.
In a tank with almost no liverock, no skimmer, existing nutrient export issues, and a bioload that already exceeds that, I certainly wouldn't advise adding yet another fish. (unless of course I was looking to sell somebody lots of replacement fish, medications, carbon, seasalt, and miracle "snake oil" cures )


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## wrasser

hey i agree with you and have agreed with you, first get the water parameters correct. then go from there. you see the 12 year old wanted to get another fish. i suggested the pygme angle because it will help keep the algea down. i know what detritus is. and the detritus from an angle eating algea is not going to hurt the tank in any way. the biggest thing is taking care of the water. five small fish in a 29 gal. tank is not going to hurt anything. it will take years before any of those fish to get five inches or bigger in a 29 gal. tank. the fish will die before they out grow the tank! so thank you for all that info. it can help in the future.


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## redpaulhus

> and the detritus from an angle eating algea is not going to hurt the tank in any way.


huh ?

I'll try to explain.

Algae is cause by excess nutrients.

Fish waste - particulate such as fecal matter, and dissolved such as ammonia from excretion and respiration - are the primary source of excess nutrients.
Adding an "algae eating" fish to a tank with an algae problem will NEVER work - its like adding a single cow to a pasture to remove the grass.
The angelfish (angle?) will NOT completely remove the algae - it will graze. It will shorten the algae, and spread more algae spores - basically helping the algae reproduce. 
By eating and digesting the algae it creates more fertilizer for the algae.
No nutrients are removed from the system by the fish, no mass is removed.
The phosphate and nitrogen that the algae had incorporated into its tissues are now released into the water - leading to more algae.

This is why refugiums and algal scrubbers work - the algae in the 'fuge or scrubber binds up waste and is* physically removed from the system*. (In fact, if you were to feed algae from a 'fuge to the fish in a display tank, you would be liberating the nutrients back into the system).

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/avoidingalgaeproblesm.htm

Not to mention the fact that no _Centropyge_ angel is going to survive on just algal growth - it will need to be fed, adding more food to the system, which once metabolized means yet more phosphate and soluble nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, etc) to fertilize more algae.

(or the fact that this sounds like diatoms or cyano, not green filamentous algae - which most _Centropyge_ angels seem to prefer.)



> you see the 12 year old wanted to get another fish


That doesn't mean its a good idea. The tank is already overcrowded. An eight year old should be mature enough to understand that, never mind a twelve year old. They'll get over it.



> the fish will die before they out grow the tank


Ahh
I think I see the problem - your fish don't live more than a year I guess.

Because in a year the clown should be 3-5 inches, as should both damsels.
(according to Fishbase.org, the population doubling time for these fish, also known as _Neoglyphidodon melas_, is less than 15 months - they reach sexual maturity relatively quickly.)

Either should live 10+ years if cared for properly.
(of course, in a year the damsels will be grey/black and ugly with an attitude like a jewel cichlid with a toothache...but I digress)



> i know what detritus is


Then why did you ask ?
???

You seem to think detritus is fecal matter - while it can contain fecal matter, it is much more than that.
Think of it as an aquatic version of dust. It also may contain parasite trophonts, shed fish scales, bacterial films, uneaten fish food, and any particulate matter that is in the aquarium. 



> first get the water parameters correct


It's not just a matter of correcting the parameters - systemic improvements are needed.
If your car leaks oil do you just put more in or do you fix the leak ?
Major systemic changes and evaluations need to be made, and one of them is an evaluation of planned biomass, planned nutrient export, and suitability of the planned and existing fish species.

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I could easily give advice that was predicated on "well, the fish will die soon anyway" - and I'd be part of the problem of bad advice on the internet.

Would you give the same advice if you had to back your advice up with your wallet ? If you would pay, out of your own personal money, for every fish your advice killed ?

Or if you were a professional writer, who would be putting their reputation and future earnings potential on the line with every word, as well ?

I treat every post as if I were advising one of my customers, and as if their future in the hobby were predicated on a clear, intelligible, rational and ethical response from me.

Otherwise I'd be no better than the folks at CBS who told people they could put Dory and Nemo in a 5g Minibow.

If advice isn't well thought out, with long term ramifications in mind, it does a disservice to all but the ego of the speaker.

On the internet, where it is preserved long after it is written, and may be seen my a multitude of people who may not know any better -- it can cause untold problems.


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## wrasser

LOL, :shock: wow, the last time i checked all fish donate fecal matter, you want to right be right in your mind! :roll: what works for me or your so called facts can work for becbeach, it is up to becneach to find what will work. :wink:


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## Fishfirst

Wrasser, do you even read his posts? They are very accurate and very very well written... your posts are often misleading and very hard to understand. Where do you get your info??? Like an article, book, or magazine? How can you give such advise to a newbie that you KNOW will kill the fish before they get to their full adult size? A dwarf angel would not fair well in that tank. Neither would any other fish at this moment, they are over stocked, plain and simple. Why contribute to the algae problem with another fish?


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## wrasser

your right and if you would read i too said that the water needed to be cleaned up, dont be naive to a very well written subject. it can be over whelming, and you might miss the point. we are saying the same thing in differnt ways. it sounds like everyone wants to be right, and not helpful. five fish at that size is not too much for a 29. HOW DO I KNOW,no books no mags., no articles. i had my large maroone clown, gold stripe grouper, yellow eye kole tang, dragon wrasse, and a black volitan loin.(grouper ate). i had these fish in the 29GAL. for a year. NOW what can you tell me, i dont know what im doing. go ahead and i will tell you, you are right in your mind. AGAIN THOSE FIVE FISH WILL LIVE VERY HAPPY IN THAT TANK WITH PROPER CARE OF THE WATER. experence can not be replaced by what you read, hear, or see.


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## Fishfirst

hmmm... and you would suggest this to someone who just got into this hobby? I THINK NOT! Keeping those 5 LARGE and aggressive fish in a 29 gallon is like keeping nemo and dory in a 1 gallon. Those five fish will not live a long happy life in that tank for life either, the tomato gets 5 inches, the damsels are very aggressive toward any other fish, and the goby will probably be eventually weeded out. Our arguement is not that the water needs to be cleaned... that would be a temperary solution, she needs to get rid of some of her bioload in order for her fish to even live in that tank.


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## wrasser

LOL with proper care anything is possible and nothing gets weeded out. in my 150 i have a bi-color blenny, queen blenny, small six line wrasse and three neon golbies. that seems reasonable, they live with the dragon wrasse, pink-tail trigger, odomus trigger, clown trigger, a harlequin tusk + others. the five fish are not big, yet. and will not be a problem with proper water and food. those five fish will set a pecking order and thats the way it goes. with proper feedings there will be no competion. the only aggression will be towards new fish that compete for food and territory. fish have personalities, alot of differnt fish can and will get along with each other. stranger things have happened, and anything is possible!


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## redpaulhus

This is why I've been posting here 5+ years


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## Fishfirst

exactly, with proper care... not under newbie supervision... don't give newbies false hope and don't give them advice for experts... thats what this forum is for... not what is possible, but what is better. They had a problem, we addressed it properly and within their experience level.


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## wrasser

yea you tell them


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## wrasser

ok becbeach, sorry about the distraction, your 15gal. mechanical filter is alittle to small. in order to have proper turn over with the water, you should go bigger. after you take care of the water parameters, you can put more live rock into the tank for decor, if you so chose to. the crushed coral is a nitrate collector. every you do your water changes you could vaccum the crushed coral or change it out and put some kind of sand down. after that you are good to go, as long as you keep chacking the water parameters. you can do that with a test kit or take a sample of water to your LFS and have them test it for you. depending on your repour with them. :wink:


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## Fishfirst

Good flow is very much a key in keeping algae off the glass of your aquarium... I would get a powerhead as well.


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## redpaulhus

and please post your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, alkalinity, calcium, and phosphate test results.
Any good LFS should be able to test these if you don't have the proper kits.

ORP would be useful as well but far too many LFS don't even know what it is, never mind having a meter for it.


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## wrasser

fishfirst i know you mean well, i really do, but she already has a powerhead


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## TheOldSalt

Wrasser, I know you DIDN'T mean well; I really do. You could have just let it slide, but noooOOOoo.


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## wrasser

you are right i should have, i apolgize


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## Guest

*Re: Suggestions for improvement - Response to suggestions!*

Thanks so much for all your information.

So what I got out of all this is:

I need to change my water weekly until I get the nitrate levels down vacuuming the coral.

I need to change my lighting in order to keep live rock. I also need to add extra nutrient and possibly some more live rock.

I need to change out the crushed coral with live sand (slowly)

I need to stop using the undergravel filter and change to another type of filtration such as a refugium. How about a protein skimmer or is that the same thing? What do I use the power head for if not on the undergravel filter? What cleans the bottom of the tank if you don't use UG filter? What is a good mechanical filter to buy for this size tank that won't cost an arm/leg? 

So far I think that is what you all have recommended; except for what direction to head with this tank.

I definitely want to have live rock, inverts and some fish. I would like to get rid of the damsels but LFS will not buy back (had for 7 months) and I just don't have the heart to throw them out of the tank. I don't want to set up another tank either. What else would I need to change or get rid of? I like the tomato clown even though he is agressive. The bi-color blenny is so cool and fun to watch, definitely want to keep him. 
The little yellow tailed damsel, can we keep him?

So other than finding a new home for the 2 blue finned damsels, what else should I get rid of or change for this tank?

Thanks so much for your input!!!

Also, if I change the lighting can we get some live plants too? Will that help the tank balance?


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## Fishfirst

Good, very good! I have to say that it sounds like a good plan. As soon as your substraite is sand it should be very easy for you to clean it. With a gravel vaccume you just need to hover it above the sand and suck up everything on top of it. 
If you want to get rid of the two damsels you can just send them off to me. I'm doing a 20 gallon damsel aquarium.


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