# Water pH / please help, will my fish be okay?



## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Apparently my water pH has recently changed from about 6.5-7 to 8-8.5. I tested my tap water today and compared it to the 90gal tank on which I haven't done a water change in about a week to be sure, so this change must have been done in the last week.
Is that possible? I live in a busy area and I can't see them switching water sources just like that. Could it be a switch from "summer" to "winter" water source, or something?

Anyway, the pH is higher. Will my angelfish be okay in that pH? I know they must come from softerwater, being SA. From what I've read most of my fish should be fine with the switch (the brevis will be particularly happy I'm sure), but if anyone has any light to shed on the various species I keep (please see my signature) please share.

Also, I recently got a pair of german blue rams. One died shortly after arrival but I had planned on getting another from the same breeder. However, I know they are soft water fish. What is my best course of action? I don't want to kill the remaining fish with this hard water. I could return him to the breeder. But I would like to make it work if I can.
What are my options for buying bottled water? My water budget isn't enourmous, but it is only a 30 gallon tank.

Also, I don't really want to have to mess with my water too much. I can deal with having to, say, add a little baking soda to increase kH, but I don't want to start adding all sorts of chemicals or supplements.

So, what are my options? Thanks for the help


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

My German blue rams are thriving and our water is 7.8. Not sure about your angelfish but most fish can adjust as long as its done slowly. Small water changes daily to get it to the current level would be my recommendation, as well as throwing a piece of driftwood into the tank if possible, which often helps to lower pH a little.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Thanks Tina, I am a tad concerned but there's not much I can about it at this very moment. Thanks for answering so quickly.

There's some driftwood in the tank, hopefully that will help a tad. I am hoping that, if nothing else, since I have a gH of 5-6, the water will at least stay stable. I think stability is more important than perfection (within reason, naturally)


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Yup, stability is definitely more important. Which is why I never recommend chemical adjustments, they cause swings which will kill fish pretty quickly. I believe adding a small amount of peat to a bag in the filter will also help lower the pH and gH safely and keep it stable. I know discus keepers use it for that.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

That's not a bad idea. Do you have any idea how much of a difference it would make? If I put a handful of peat into the filter, how much could I expect the pH to go down? Does the peatmoss eventually lose its effect and need to be replaced?
Does that lower kH too? I wouldn't guess so... I don't want to lower my CO2 too much.


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## BV77 (Jan 22, 2005)

you can , by law, contact your water co. and they have to send you paperwork stating all the stuff that's in your tap water., prolly ph, too, but I forger, it's been so long since I did that


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Remember, I have no experience on this, just passing on what I've heard/read. 

http://www.discuspro.com/aquarium5.htm
_There are many methods of lowering your pH, most with some form of phosphoric acid, from drops to powders, but one of the gentlest and safest methods is through the use of peat moss.

Because the peat adsorbs carbonates and acidifies the water, you should be able to maintain desirable pH and carbonate levels through the use of peat alone. _


http://www.discuspro.com/aquarium10.htm
_Peat is easy to use. Just pour about 1 quart of peat per 25 gallons of aquarium water into a bag or a lady's stocking and seal the bag. Slip this bag into your filter or place it in an area of the aquarium where water will flow through the bag. Replace the peat about every 30 days or when your pH tests start to show a rise in pH._


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Oh, apparently both Fluval and Eheim make peat stuff for their filters, or you can just buy the loose stuff.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Just a dumb question.


How does pH swings kill fish while a pH outside of thier range doesnt affect them that much?


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/WaterQuality/pHSwing.htm


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Sorry, but i dont think that answered my question. 
My question paraphrased was, why would a pH of 8.5 not kill a fish but a swing from 6.5-7.5 can kill a fish. It doesnt seem to make sense that it could survive at a different pH water but could not survive the change from a "tolerable" pH to another "tolerable" pH.


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## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

Pour boiling water into your tank when doing water changes.:lol:


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

harif87 said:


> Sorry, but i dont think that answered my question.
> My question paraphrased was, why would a pH of 8.5 not kill a fish but a swing from 6.5-7.5 can kill a fish. It doesnt seem to make sense that it could survive at a different pH water but could not survive the change from a "tolerable" pH to another "tolerable" pH.


They can, as long as the change is done slowly so their bodies can get used to the change.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

It may work the same way as temperature and people. Why is it that I can through a -20C winter without a cold, but when it turns to spring and the temperature is going from -10 to +20, back and forth, for a few weeks, I get terrible colds?

I might be wrong with that analogy but it made sense to me 

Regarding peat moss: I have a general hardness of 5, which is pretty soft, n'est-ce pas? I am concerned that in addition to bringing down my pH, the peat would bring down the softness even more.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

:neutral:


harif87 said:


> Sorry, but i dont think that answered my question.
> My question paraphrased was, why would a pH of 8.5 not kill a fish but a swing from 6.5-7.5 can kill a fish. It doesnt seem to make sense that it could survive at a different pH water but could not survive the change from a "tolerable" pH to another "tolerable" pH.


Well if you go back and re-read the article, I think that your question would be answered.

"Now think of the pH suddenly falling. It would feel sort of like being dropped into a vat of acid. When the pH suddenly falls to a 6.5 or below it is called a pH crash and is very deadly. Fish subjected to a mild pH crash suffer peeling of the skin, very similar to our sun-burned skin peeling off. We’ve seen cases of the jelly caps of fancy Orandas literally eaten away. Sever crashes can end with complete fish loss. In the case of an emergency a water change is in order or take the pH up quickly. A very clean system with little organics tends to be lower in pH. Bead filters, because of their efficiency, can actually contribute to low pH readings. For readings that tend to stay low, baking soda in small quantities can be used to bring the pH up but you do not want to raise the pH quickly unless it’s an emergency because it can shock the fish. Instead, it’s best to use carefully prescribed products designed to raise the pH over a period of time and hold it at the desired level. We use pH stabilizers with great results. It’s important to know that the stabilizers must be added back whenever water changes are made".

Fish can tolarate a certain ph....Tolarate that is at a slow change. But if you have a swing then the fishes skin will chap or burn.

Very good article Boxermom!


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Ph swings change the osmotic pressure that is on the fish.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

pokagon55 said:


> :neutral:
> 
> Well if you go back and re-read the article, I think that your question would be answered.
> 
> ...


The same feeling would be felt even if change was done slowly. Acid feels like it burns once it reaches a certain point, especially if skin is entirely submeresed in it.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

harif87.....Ok?! So what is your point:?: There has to be a point here. Sounds like you are saying that both are the same witch is not true. I don't know what you are talking about but I did anwser the question about the swing. They can tolorate a certain ph if done slowly. Are you trying to justify you being right? If that is the case then ok.....You are right I am wrong and sorry for disagreeing with you....:console:


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Testing water straight from the tap can give artificially high pH readings. If it is deprived of CO2 it will read high. The true pH of your tap water is best tested after it has sat, ideally aerated for a while. My town's water report lists the *straight from the tap* pH. At one point my pH would drop from 9.??? (off the chart) to 7.6 if I aerated it overnight and the gas exchange occurred.

Tank water will almost always become more acidic with time, if for no other reason from the breakdown of waste. Driftwood and plants contribute to this. Usually only with the use of buffering substrates or rocks can this be naturally counteracted.

Fresh tap water vs. old tank water is comparing apples and oranges.

I can't use fresh tap. I use a large barrel to age my waterchange water and try to keep an few additional 5G buckets sitting around full also. Only in a true emergency would I use fresh tap, it's just too deprived of CO2.

Also, pH is a logarithmic scale, like the Richter scale for earthquakes. A pH of 6.0 is TEN TIMES more acid than a pH of 7.0.
See: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pH+scale+logarithm&btnG=Google+Search


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Well, my tap used to read about 7. And so did my tanks. I tested the old tank water to check my kit and see if it was still reading the same as before.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

pokagon55 said:


> harif87.....Ok?! So what is your point:?: There has to be a point here. Sounds like you are saying that both are the same witch is not true. I don't know what you are talking about but I did anwser the question about the swing. They can tolorate a certain ph if done slowly. Are you trying to justify you being right? If that is the case then ok.....You are right I am wrong and sorry for disagreeing with you....:console:


Wow.



I think Damon made a good point about the osmotic pressure. Do you have any documented articles that talk about this that i could take a look at, i know you have millions of links in your stash lol


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Damon, I thought osmotic pressure was regulated (and affected) by salinity, not acidity. Or are they the same or related in some way? I know raising the salinity of the water too fast will cause osmotic shock and kill a fish.

Ok, this is waaay too much for me to read but maybe someone can read it and glean any answers to the question? (PDF file)
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/25/1/22.pdf

Edit: Maybe this will help: 

_Water is your fish's complete habitat and life support system. Being totally and continuously submerged has a few problems. Have you ever stayed in the bath long enough to come out with wrinkled fingers? This is due to OSMOTIC pressure. If two liquids, separated by a membrane (like skin) have different densities then the less dense liquid will try to dilute the denser one by penetrating the membrane. This happens to fish too. In fresh water the fish's bodily fluids are denser than the surrounding water so water penetrates the fish, trying to thin out these fluids. The fish responds by having very efficient kidneys that produce lots of urine. Freshwater fish drink very little too. Yes, fish do drink! In a marine environment the opposite is true. The surrounding water is denser than the fish's fluids so the fish in effect dries out. Marine fish drink lots and have kidneys that produce very concentrated, salty urine. They also dispose of excess salts through their gills. *This osmotic pressure is why fish can be seriously stressed by water that is too hard (dense) or soft (dilute) for their liking. *It also affects fish eggs - fish may breed in water which is too soft or too hard but the eggs may fail to hatch._
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ecoquariums/water.htm


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Well the more acidic the water the more H+ ions are present so i would think it would have an effect on osmotic pressure.

Gimme a few minutes to read the article boxermom


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Edit: Maybe this will help:
> 
> _Water is your fish's complete habitat and life support system. Being totally and continuously submerged has a few problems. Have you ever stayed in the bath long enough to come out with wrinkled fingers? This is due to OSMOTIC pressure. If two liquids, separated by a membrane (like skin) have different densities then the less dense liquid will try to dilute the denser one by penetrating the membrane. This happens to fish too. In fresh water the fish's bodily fluids are denser than the surrounding water so water penetrates the fish, trying to thin out these fluids. The fish responds by having very efficient kidneys that produce lots of urine. Freshwater fish drink very little too. Yes, fish do drink! In a marine environment the opposite is true. The surrounding water is denser than the fish's fluids so the fish in effect dries out. Marine fish drink lots and have kidneys that produce very concentrated, salty urine. They also dispose of excess salts through their gills. *This osmotic pressure is why fish can be seriously stressed by water that is too hard (dense) or soft (dilute) for their liking. *It also affects fish eggs - fish may breed in water which is too soft or too hard but the eggs may fail to hatch._
> http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ecoquariums/water.htm


I think thats a nice and detailed explination. Its pretty sensible. Thanks for helping shed some light on the thought.

Btw Sorry Zoe for hijacking your thread :!:


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Back to the original question. In my experience, adult angels are ok in pH 8 water, but its much less likely to get any surviving offspring (though high hardness could be the culpret). Other than peat, ways to lower pH include using RO water in changes, and adding commercail products. Changing the pH is long term commitment and a lot of work, but worth it for some fish. 
Unless your tank is planted (high light) I recommend the Seachem regulator line. They include phosphate buffers (tetra blackwater extract also has phospates) that hold the pH stable rather than just changing it. Even the alkaline regulator (pH=7.5) would be preferable to 8.5 and if your tap water comes back down, you can just go back to it. If you do decide to alter your pH I also suggest a pH/TDS test pen (I have one of each, but they make combos), Its a one-time expense, and very easy to use, and no more test tubes.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Well, my tap used to read about 7. And so did my tanks. I tested the old tank water to check my kit and see if it was still reading the same as before.


The treatment process used on the water may have changed. I'm just suggesting that the tap water may be CO2 deficient. Letting a gas exchange occur before testing the tap is the single easiest step towards figuring out what happened. If after a couple of days the water still has such a high pH I would contact whoever is responsible for you water supply. That is a dramatic change and I can't imagine they are not aware of it.


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