# Rescaped my 10gal



## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I purchased a new cave ornament and rescaped my 10gal planted. The old cave was just too tall and took up too much swimming space. Please tell me what you think and how you would make it better. As mentioned before, I am terrible at asthetics...

Specs:
10gal
Whisper 30 filter
100W heater (kept at 82-84 degrees F)
hood lighting with (2) 10W fluorescent bulbs
Elite airpump with 8" airwand
Flourite substrate (1 bag- perfect amount...media is 3"+ deep)

Plants:
2 anubias nana
4+ new wisteria stems
Val contorta
1 dwarf onion
2 crypts
lotsa java moss!
1 java fern 
baby tears
Micro val

Fish:
2 F swords
1 Mollie
6 silver Fry (from 11/8) 
5 yellow fry (from 12/18)
pond snails up the wahooie.

I feed 3times daily. First feeding is a mixture of livebearer flakes (not crushed) and Baby Bites crushed up. 2nd and 3rd are crushed baby bites.

I haven't figured out how to dose ferts yet, but I have a bottle of Flourish I plan to use soon.

I was NOT pleased with the Flourite for the first month. I didn't rinse it and it was ridiculously cloudy for about 3 days. Then every time the water was very slightly agitated, like from planting or moving an ornament, the water would cloud up again and coat everything.

Now, a month after installing, it seems to be fine with no cloudiness when there's ornament moving or planting. In the long range, it appears the flourite has less particulate clouding than eco-complete does. (I have eco in my 29gal.)

I'm not sure if I really like the terra cotta color and course texture of the flourite, or if I really dislike it.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> Please tell me what you think and how you would make it better. As mentioned before, I am terrible at asthetics...


Looking good Sam!

I believe most folks with planted tanks and internal equipment (or viewable external equipment) establish tall plants along the rear wall of the tank in order to obviate the view of the equipment.




Manthalynn said:


> I haven't figured out how to dose ferts yet, but I have a bottle of Flourish I plan to use soon.


Sam: please do not give me another headache here lol: :lol: :lol: just kidding of course as your posts have been very informative) but as I am certain that you will know by reading the label Flourish is principally micronutrients.

Having said that I had a lower light planted tank only with the application of nutrients which I believe to have been very nice.

The keys to the kingdom in understanding planted tanks is *Rex Grigg's site*.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> I believe most folks with planted tanks and internal equipment (or viewable external equipment) establish tall plants along the rear wall of the tank in order to obviate the view of the equipment.


Thanks for the suggestion. I'm having difficulty getting my Vals to grow tall again. Grrr...They broke off or got nipped off and now are only 4-5 inches tall. I'll keep an eye out for any taller plants. Thanks!





> Sam: please do not give me another headache here lol: :lol: :lol: just kidding of course as your posts have been very informative) but as I am certain that you will know by reading the label Flourish is principally micronutrients.


Pull out the Tylenol! I totally didn't check on the nutrients! (Shame on me! I'm a horticulture student!) To me, fish keeping is so different from gardening that I didn't even think to carry over any knowledge. But sadly, my nutrient knowledge is nill. I'm stronger in the phsyiology and identification at this point.



> The keys to the kingdom in understanding planted tanks is *Rex Grigg's site*.


Oh, thank you! This will help immensely! The site is laid out very well so I don't feel overwhelmed with knowledge just stashed willy nilly.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

*Sam: This is an edit to my previous post.*

Having said that I had a lower light planted tank only with the application of *micro*nutrients *(ie. Flourish)* which I believe to have been very nice.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you for the clarification! I was scratching my head over that comment but too embarrassed to ask for elucidation!

I started to research the macro and micronutrients (I know what they are) and how aquatic plants get them (this is the part I don't know about). But then I started wondering how my pH affects the nutrient availability. And then I gave _myself_ a headache and thought better of posting anything at the moment. I don't have time to post anything concise and helpful.

I would really love to get my Val contorta tall again. I'll have to focus on these and their needs.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> But then I started wondering how my pH affects the nutrient availability.


Sam: I will really be interested to see what you come up with but I believe that the only nutrient that you will find to be affected by Ph is Carbon.




Manthalynn said:


> I would really love to get my Val contorta tall again. I'll have to focus on these and their needs.


Sam: do you have a link to these? 

I googled and read as well as searching my standard IN resources for an hour or more with no joy.

I somehow (very, very qualitatively from several years ago) do not believe them to be contorta if they were over 8" tall.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> I will really be interested to see what you come up with but I believe that the only nutrient that you will find to be affected by Ph is Carbon.


This I can answer concisely. See this chart here.

My water pH is between 8.2 and 8.5, constantly, no swings. According to this chart (and my botany prof) at these values I am starting to limit how much P the plants can uptake. I'm definitely affecting Fe, Mn, Cu, and Z. I'm significantly affecting B uptake. However, these values are for _soil_ pH. I need to research if _water_ pH directly impacts soil pH and therefore plant uptake.



> I somehow (very, very qualitatively from several years ago) do not believe them to be contorta if they were over 8" tall.


According to AquaBotanic, "Contortion vals are one of the largest: 24 to 30" in length, while the Corkscrew vals have a similar appearance, reach only 12 to15" in height."

The reason I'm expecting these particular ones to get tall is because they _were_ tall when I purchased them. But they kept getting broken off until all of them are 4-5" tall. You're probably right, though, they're not Contortion vals, they're probably Corkscrew vals. Either way, I SAW them tall once upon a time. Perhaps my filters created too much water flow? Or are mollies really nippy with plants???

[Edited to say my emphases are not indicating not believing you, they are used to express my annoyance/frustration with these dang plants! Just thought I'd clarify...I have a tendency to innocently offend people. I'll blame it on Asperger's, which I don't have but my sister swears I do.]


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sam: I just spent an hour responding and the response was lost in a Forum hiccup so this it the Reader's Digest version.



Manthalynn said:


> However, these values are for _soil_ pH. I need to research if _water_ pH directly impacts soil pH and therefore plant uptake.


Looking forward to the publication of your research.

Grigg's site as well as others, IMHO, base the macronutrient concentrations on 20PPM to 30PPM CO2 being present in the tank.

Be very careful with the P as even a minor excess will generate a ton of algae.

Significant concentrations of CSM+B (micronutrients) appear to be very beneficial for plant health and growth as well as reduction of algae.




Manthalynn said:


> The reason I'm expecting these particular ones to get tall is because they _were_ tall when I purchased them. But they kept getting broken off until all of them are 4-5" tall. You're probably right, though, they're not Contortion vals, they're probably Corkscrew vals. Either way, I SAW them tall once upon a time.


Sam: I anticipate that your Val's are Vallisneria gigantea as best as I could ascertain from the photograph.

When Val's are purchased and planted or are transplanted within a tank they typically "melt" down but subsequently grow and propagate.




Manthalynn said:


> Perhaps my filters created too much water flow? Or are mollies really nippy with plants???


Flow does affect Val's but I am talking about "jet type" flow. My Val's do way better in areas of the tank which have minimal flow.

I have never kept Molly's.




Manthalynn said:


> I'll blame it on Asperger's, which I don't have but my sister swears I do.]


Well better than Alz ....

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Grigg's site as well as others, IMHO, base the macronutrient concentrations on 20PPM to 30PPM CO2 being present in the tank.


Yeah, yeah, everyone keeps telling me about CO2 how great it is! I just got a 55gal tank so maybe I'll consider it.



> Be very careful with the P as even a minor excess will generate a ton of algae.


So good to know!



> I anticipate that your Val's are Vallisneria gigantea as best as I could ascertain from the photograph.


I looked at some pictures of V. gigantea, but mine spiral, or twist, quite a lot. There's at least 1-3 twists per inch of leaf.

I posted some photos to a blog. Hopefully this shows larger pictures so you can see it more clearly. http://manthalynn.blogspot.com/2008/12/vallisneria-spp.html



> When Val's are purchased and planted or are transplanted within a tank they typically "melt" down but subsequently grow and propagate.


That makes sense. I've heard of this melt and seen it in terrestrial plants (well, same idea, anyway). I'll just keep being patient with it. And research nutrition. Of course, nothing is going to get accomplished in the next three days other than totally spoil rotten 5 nieces and nephews. Happy Christmas!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> Yeah, yeah, everyone keeps telling me about CO2 how great it is! I just got a 55gal tank so maybe I'll consider it.


Sam: I said something wrong somewhere.

For some reason, h... who knows, I am just not a believer in the high tech planted tanks and have never pursued one.

As I am certain that you will when you research you will ascertain that the typical concentration of CO2 in a planted tank is 2ppm which is generated via the plants and the interchange with atmospheric gas at the surface.

The high tech folks attempt to maintain a CO2 concentration of 20ppm to 30ppm and please note that, per my research, concentrations above 30ppm are toxic or lethal to fish.

Via my many experiments I have ascertained that a CO2 concentration of like 5ppm is very beneficial in the presence of ferts with power of 2WPG or above.

5ppm of CO2 can be attained with a 2 liter bottle of DIY CO2 generation in a 110G tank.




Manthalynn said:


> I looked at some pictures of V. gigantea, but mine spiral, or twist, quite a lot. There's at least 1-3 twists per inch of leaf.
> I posted some photos to a blog.


Sam: I do believe those to be Vallisneria spiralis but I also believe that several variants exist as I have four "clumps" in my tank which are not nearly as twisted as are yours.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> 5ppm of CO2 can be attained with a 2 liter bottle of DIY CO2 generation in a 110G tank.


Cool, I'd enjoy trying these out. I've read a little about them and it sounds do-able. I even have a jar of yeast so that's on hand.





> Sam: I do believe those to be Vallisneria spiralis but I also believe that several variants exist as I have four "clumps" in my tank which are not nearly as twisted as are yours.


I would definitely accept that there are TONS of variations. The ornamental industry is HUGE so I'm assuming the aquatic industry introduces a lot of variants, also.

Thanks for the help!


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