# cruely kept bettas PLEASE READ!!!



## bettaboy691

i was looking for a new tank to put maybe a crown tail betta in and as i was searching the internet, i often came across some horrible tanks intended for bettas. i'm sure we have all heard about theses really small tanks etc.. but i just wanted to show people what they looked like and to raise attension of the cruelty of these tanks. i was an aquatic store that i saw sold one of the betta tanks and i told the manager what i thought of them and asked him if hes thought it was right and he replyed "they're just fish, people like these small tanks and they sell well, in the wild they live in small puddles of water" i was so annoyed i told him what i thought of him and walked out never to return again.(so what he meant what they bring him alot of money and he thinks they're not important, well bettas may live in shallow waters in the wild but they can spread for miles.and im pretty sure the bettas DON'T like being kept in the small jars people keep them in.)
here are some of the dispicable tanks i found: BEWARE

























































































sorry for so many images but i feel so strongly about these fish that i get carries away. i did find this interesting site, you may want to check it out. http://www.captiveanimals.org/news/2001/betta.htm

thanks for all your time and patience in reading what i have to say, i hope you will leave you comments and say what you really feel, whatever side your on.

i know i write a lot but it shows how i feel and i hope you do read it and take in whats written.
p.s one last thing heres a article i found about betta-vases and how bad they are
(The argument made for keeping fish in a vase is that pumps, filters, and other aquarium equipment, do not exist in nature. By putting the fish in what appears to be a natural environment the assumption is made that it is inherently as healthy as, if not healthier than, an aquarium. That simply isn't the case. It is true that in nature the Betta lives in shallow rice paddies and swamps. However those waters represent a complete ecological system, which cannot be replicated in a small vase. Rice paddies are shallow but are still part of a much larger body of water that serves to dilute toxins. Scavengers and bacteria present in native waters break down wastes and render them harmless to fish.

In nature the Betta lives on a diet that consists predominantly of insects and insect larvae. In fact, Bettas contribute significantly in controlling mosquitoes that abound in their native habitat. The Betta's digestive tract is geared for meat. Its upturned mouth is designed to grab insects that have fallen into the water. Although they may be observed picking for morsels on plants and rocks, they are not bottom feeders by nature. A diet consisting of vegetable matter may keep them alive for a while, but it is not natural or healthy. Over time they will slowly be starved of the proper nutrients, and more easily fall victim to disease.

Another factor that has been completely overlooked in the Lily-Betta combination is the element of water temperature. The primary reason Bettas in small bowls are often listless is because the water temperature is too low. Bettas are native to countries such as Thailand where the climate is hot and moist. The ideal water temperature for the Betta is about 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Although they can survive at lower temperatures, they become lethargic and may even refuse to eat. Unless you live in a very warm climate, the water in a vase cannot be maintained in the upper 70's to lower 80's. Subjecting the Betta to cool temperatures is the same as if you or I had to live in a house where the temperature that didn't rise above 60 degrees.

Lastly, there is the issue of how the betta breathes. Like other fish, the Betta derives oxygen from the water. However, it also has special organ that allows it to breathe air directly. Its upturned mouth allows it to easily gulp air from the surface, and therefore survive in waters that are low in oxygen. If the Lily vase is not properly set up, there will be insufficient open space at the top of the water for the Betta to reach the air. As the oxygen dissolved in the water is used up, the Betta will need to breathe air more often. Should it have trouble reaching the surface, it may become deprived of the oxygen it needs to survive.

The Peace Lily-Betta combination is clearly a popular fad, but it is neither natural nor healthy for the fish. A dog or cat owner would never consider shutting their pet in a small closet with minimal heat, food, and air. The Betta should not be treated any less humanely.)


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## Osiris

so that 1g tank i was lookin at for the betta isnt big enough? or maybe i should get the betta this instead huh:


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## bettaboy691

personally i wouldnt buy a 1 gallon for a betta, i thinks its too small, but i know people who have done it before and have had great sucess.the picture u posted isnt showing for some reason so i cant see the alternative.just keep the water at a good temp. and clean the water often is probally the best advice i could give for a 1 gallon, but i ask you to maybe hold off buying a small tanks a purchase a bigger, better one, for the bettas sake atleast.the smallest tank in the pics i posted is about 1/2 litre.(its the one in someones hand)


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## Ice

Uh - I got mine in the the same type of "bowl" (second image, top) and he seemed fine to me. I've had him for 2 months now and is very active in it.


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## Daniel1

fine in what way?..


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## Osiris

http://www.eglobe1.com/word/wp-content/images/Cool Stuff/3/fishnflush_small.jpg


Correct me if im wrong but aren't betta's bred in small spaces?


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## Daniel1

for some reason the link doesnt work for me...
i guess they must be bred in small spaces but why not give them a little more space if you are gonna keep them..i believe they could be happier...but however there must be also ppl that keep them in really small spaces and they are succesfull..


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## kay-bee

In spite of all the betta's in the world which have been kept in small containers, I let my wife's betta live in my 180gal tank for a week when it was still completely empty. :fun: 

After that it lived in a 5gal tank because I had other intentions for that tank, but for a week that betta reigned over an 'empire'.

I personally think a 5gal tank is an ideal tank size for a single betta.


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## (RC)

Betta are normally bred in 10G tanks. A Betta live in just about any size container if you are willing to do the work to keep the water clean. I've raised 1000's of them in 32oz containers and that is the size container I use on my current barracks system. The lilly is the vase thing would work great if you feed the Betta and change the water when you should depending on the vase size. I know my my Bettas seem to love to rest in the root system of various of plants I've had growing in different containers.



RC


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## gemjunkie

I'd have to agree with RC. Bettas will do fine and grow to maturity in any size container given clean water and plenty of food. 

No matter how many soap boxes you get on, you will NEVER eliminate those type containers and your time would be better spent educating people on water conditions and proper foods... IME anyway.


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## Reefneck

Osiris said:


> http://www.eglobe1.com/word/wp-content/images/Cool Stuff/3/fishnflush_small.jpg
> 
> 
> Correct me if im wrong but aren't betta's bred in small spaces?


I'll stay out of this argument but I will say that when I used to breed Betta's I did so in 5 gallon tanks. I kept my females in 10G tanks and males in quart jars. Then moved the breeders to the 5G for reproduction.


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## mudskipper26

they can barely move in most of those, but what kinda betta is in your avatar that is the coolest one ive ever seen.


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## Daniel1

RC do you raise them in 32 oz containers and then you sell them or do you keep them?...personally i would only put a betta in such small container if it was for breeding and selling purposes..
i respect everyone's opinion and i share the fact that you should try to have the best water condition but i think a container like that is too small


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## gemjunkie

So why does it make it better to be in the small container for breeding and selling purposes? I raised bettas for YEARS using beanie baby containers, 10g tanks, 5gal tanks and 20g tanks and in the end they all needed to be separated. 

I am just having a hard time understanding why it's ok for a breeder to use a small container but not the 'average person'?? Seems flawed logic to me.


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## anasfire23

I have 2 of the tanks second in the pic, with the black plug thing at the bottom and I keep my females in them. They get a 100% water change every other day and are more than happy in them. I also currently have 8 x 6 week old betta fry in 500ml(16oz) plastic drinking cups (which I do 100% water change in everyday) and they are all perfectly happy. I think the size tank you keep them in all depends on your lifestyle. If you have the time and patience to clean their tanks out often enough there is nothing wrong with keeping them in anything really (as long as they can turn and swim freely, unlike the tanks I found at my LFS see http://www.fishforums.com/forum/bettas/13695-despicable-new-tanks-keeping-bettas.html)

And Gem it's ok for breeders like myself and RC to use smaller containers because we do daily water changes and have committed our time and efforts to raising these fish. The average person keeping bettas for how nice they look and the hobby of it may not be willing to clean their tanks out as often as required, not to mention may have been given the wrong information at their LFS as to how often to feed them, water change etc. We as breeders have researched the subject to death and know exactly how to look after these beautiful fish. But in saying that though I will not allow my fry (when mature) to go to anyone who isn't well informed as to how to look after them and is willing to do what is nessisary to keep them healthy. I have an LFS close to my house that have agreed to take the bulk of my spawns and they keep them all in those tanks with the plug underneith and waste absorbing gravel, do 80% water change everyday and total clean out once a week so I know that they will be kept in good conditions. Another LFS near me keeps dozens of them in those half sized round take away containers. I find that despicable.


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## (RC)

I use the 32oz jars to put them into when I have to seperate a spawn, but the ones I keep to show or for the next spawns will continue to live in the 32oz container.I only keep a small number of fish per spawn. The rest get culled or given away.


RC


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## Betta splendens

Wow, I've seen everyone of those in petco right under the little containers of bettas....

I have the second one, but I only use it as a holding "tank" when I'm cleaning my betta's. 

That site below the pics seems to be nothing but another annoying PETA-like site, but they do have a point. I have a filter in my Betta's tank but I clean it weekly (scrub the sides, get new sand, clean the plants, the works). Poor bettas, I bet half of them die within their first month with the irresponsably and poorly informed toddlers whose parents don't know squat. Same problem with goldfish....

And I admire your self control, I'd have yelled at that store keeper. Bettas live in....puddles =| sure....


And does anybody else notice that the first three bettas are the same pic? I mean they're just photoshoped over the pic of the betta containers.

And sorry if you said it already, but what do you mean by betta-lilly combo?


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## Ice

Daniel1 said:


> fine in what way?..


Fine as in healthy and no stress. I religiously do 100% weekly water changes and change the gravel monthly. I also feed it evry other day. That "bowl" package I bought came with waste absorbing gravel and fake plant (I opt not to put it in) - instruction states to change gravel every month. I also used bottled water as well. He's got great color, too !


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## bettaboy691

firstly, sorry to disapoint you but my aviator is just a pic of google.co.uk, i couldn't get a good picture of my bettas and none of mine look as colorful as that.just because your bettas seem fine, doesnt mean they're happy, they can't tell you if they want a bigger space.probally the biggest reason why these tanks are popular is because pet shop owners tell you lies just to get a sale, they make them sound like little work in involved. i know alot of you out there keep your bettas in small jars, etc but in my opinion its just too small to live in, i read that some of you have thet smallest one,(second top) to me thats the worst one!!!! betta splendens: the lilly-vase betta "home" is just a small vase with a piece lilly planted in the top, with a poor betta inside, expected to live of the roots and survive. i know the betta is the same in all 3 pics but i got them from the same site.the one in someones hand just shows how small it is.
kay-bee: what you have sound like a great size, 5 gallons is a good size for bettas.i would never go below a 3 gallon, and thats only when no over options avaiable.(apart from the spawn) keeping them in small 32oz jars isnt ideal but whats the point of naggin you as your not going to change them, i except that but im trying to educate people of maybe thinking of getting one...etc.temporary housing in small containers isnt a problem, i hold my bettas in jam jars when cleaning the tanks, but always put them back afterwards. heating is the main issue with small tanks...there isnt any.where youy live it might be warm enough to keep them without heaters but here in the uk even the summers arnt that warm and all my tanks have heaters.
they main reasons, i think, bettas get abused and treated wrongly is because the owners are not informed or given the wrong information,please remember, most pet shops are out to make a sale, luckily my LFS has an excellent reputation and keeps their bettas in either community tanks with sutable tank mates or on there own in 2 gallon devided tanks. never would they, nor i, even think about keeping them in small cups to sell.when i tried to sell my 200 betta fry, my LFS would only take 50 because they couldnt house them all, i managed to get rid of another 150 at other aquatic shops around but i made sure they were going to be lucked after properly, i kept 2 behind to see them grow(it was my first time breeding)and they turned out brillient.both live in 4 gallons. an other reason is the addiction of the betta homes on sale, you see it and think it would go lovely in your front room or bedroom, and it still will with a 5 gallon, the tanks arnt that much bigger.im not saying keeping betas in small bowls wont do them hard as such, they breed, have good colour and most seem to be happy, but imagin you being kept in a small room then upgraded into 3 rooms, how much happier would you be.my friend has two bettas in the pic second bottom, she feed them live food(brine shrimp and bloodwroms) and pellets.hers are colourful and she cleans them out totally ever week, replacing gravel when ever needed.she keeps them in her bedroom which is soooo warm it keeps the tanks heated.so i know it can be sucsessful it keeping them in small tanks but it doesnt make it right,the bigger the better i say when it comes to aquariums.they are many arguements for both side to keeping bettas but i wanted to share my opinion, it deosnt make me right nor wrong, i can understand people keeping them in small containers for their life, but as long as they look after them and treat them as a pet not as an object then why will you change, its worked for you. but for me im against it. i always want to give my bettas more room and i make my self only ever have a maxium of 5 bettas at once so i can treat them as a fish and make it fun not a c**************** where u get into a routine day in day out.
sorry if i offend anyone but its just the way i am and the way i feel, i didnt expect so many replys to this post but im happy you are reading it and understands where people are coming from.


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## bettaboy691

dont know why but that "starred" word is c h o r e


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## Osiris

I didnt' read the essay just written.

But i dont know about you but here LFs dont carry them very nice all nice finnage betta's the ones around here are your cheap ones that breeders pawn off aka Culls. And if u want the nice ones like u see online usually have to find a breeder and pay $15-20 for if someone spends that much on a betta chances are they are going to take proper care of it.


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## T4987

look at this one. Only has a 2 inch hole to get stuff in and out and only holds 1/2 gallon.


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## leafgirl115

Thats nothing look at this: 

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18108/si1317866/cl0/redseadecoartaquavasesweethearts

http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18108/si1317868/cl0/redseadecoartaquavasedance


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## (RC)

T4987 said:


> look at this one. Only has a 2 inch hole to get stuff in and out and only holds 1/2 gallon.


 
There are MUCH cheaper ways to keep a Betta, but if you do the water changes needed for a small container then that is not a bad set up if your room is warm enough. It's about the size of a beannie baby container.



RC


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## (RC)

leafgirl115 said:


> Thats nothing look at this:
> 
> http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18108/si1317866/cl0/redseadecoartaquavasesweethearts
> 
> http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18108/si1317868/cl0/redseadecoartaquavasedance


 
They would be a pain to keep a Betta in not to mention the price.

RC


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## stargate_geek

I have:









But if use it for breeding snails to feed to my Dwarf Puffer! Far to small for a betta!


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## Daniel1

wow that's expensive.

im a begginer and i just want to know, even if you have great water conditions, and you change your water when it is needed, isnt a container like that too small??id say they can barely move...


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## bettaboy691

thats what i mean, the betta may be a live in these small containers but can hardy move.its much easier to get a small 3-4-5 gallon.and probally looks better than one of those other containers.i found another picture on another post in this forum but i wanted to show you, it has got to be the WORST ever betta home in the world.


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## Ice

leafgirl115 said:


> Thats nothing look at this:
> 
> http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18108/si1317866/cl0/redseadecoartaquavasesweethearts
> 
> http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp18108/si1317868/cl0/redseadecoartaquavasedance



How the heck do you get him out when doing water changes ?!?! Those are too small !


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## Osiris

correct me if im wrong, but if that's watertight after u put the fish in, how does the fish get o2?


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## bettaboy691

i think it means its watertight around the sides and base, looking at the pic, the top is open, which is just as bad as the betta could jump out.


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## anasfire23

I agree that those betta bowls (second from the top) that u say are way too small are too small for most male bettas, expecially those with a lot of finnage but I don't keep my males in them. I keep my females in them and they have plenty of room to turn and dart around. They might even be ok for shorter finned breeds like plakats but deffinitly not veil, comb/crown and delta etc tails there is just too much fin for them to cart around the tank.


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## manda

I personally think its just fine to keep a betta in a small container. I would NEVER go under one gallon, but the main reason why is because i dont want to do all of that work. and they bigger the tank the more active my bettas seem to be. i would much rather have a betta in a 3 to 5 gallon swimming around and being pretty, than a betta in a 1 gallon and under tank just setting in one spot


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## (RC)

If I only had one or two Bettas to deal with I'd keep one each in a 2g tank because I have the tanks,but when your talking about 100+ adults and up to 20 spawning going at any one time I have to think about space so the 32oz containers have worked great for me for years.


RC


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## DoLce N BeLLa

If price is an issue...go to sciencekit.com

You can get a plant 5 gallon tank (nothing added) for about 20 bucks (including shipping)

This is a good idea for people who are interested in working their own filters, plants, lights etc because its literally just the tank.

If you're looking for a "pretty" tank that doesnt look like a tank then there are always the large sized vases in nice shapes. My beta at home is in one, and I'm going to guess it's about a 1.5 gallons, but he'll be moving shortly to a 2 gallon aquarium because i'm upgrading my ADFs to a 5 gallon


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## DoLce N BeLLa

You can get a plant 5 gallon tank (nothing added) for about 20 bucks (including shipping)

I meant "plain 5 gallon tank"

I just ordered plants on ebay so I have plants on the mind!


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## DoLce N BeLLa

Hmph...after reading all this stuff I feel like putting my beta in a 1.5g vase is being a bad mommy, and a 2g is no different. Is 2g really that heinous?


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## bettaboy691

DoLce N BeLLa said:


> Hmph...after reading all this stuff I feel like putting my beta in a 1.5g vase is being a bad mommy, and a 2g is no different. Is 2g really that heinous?


i wouldnt say its heinous compeared to the timy cups they are bought in in american, but to be painfully honest, IMO it could be bigger. just because they breath mostly air and can survive in smaller tanks/varses, doesnt mean they are happy, would you be happy living in just one of your house rooms for your life?a 5 gallon is the lowest i will ever go long term.but i have to give you credit for upgrading froma 1.5 to a 2 gallon tho.you could try your betta in the 5 gallon with your frogs as long as its heated and filtered, and providing their is enough space.other wise the 2 gallon you have is they best place for him in your home.


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## Puffer Pita

IMO 1 gallon tanks are fine for short finned bettas such as plakats or females. 2 gallon or more are fine for longer varieties. I have one in a 2g and one in a 5g with an ADF, and they are both doing quite well. Its more important to me that they be in clean, filtered and heated tanks. When I had them in larger tanks, they were miserable.


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## DoLce N BeLLa

My betta is definitely a bigger type though so I'm not sure if the 2g is okay still. He's probably 3-4 inches including fins I think. 
Absolutely beautiful though, with GORGEOUS red and purple fins. Water changes are often, though probably need more because my mom tries to feed him 3 times a day because she is positive that I'm starving him when I come home and feed him twice a day with a few pieces each time.

I think I might try to bring him to college to be with my ADFs...we'll have to see if the Mother can stand to lose her darling "Alpha"


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## bettaboy691

i agree its more important to have heated,filtered,clean water but why cant you do that in a bigger tank? the only reason i can think of why they looked miserable in bigger tanks is because they have lived in small tanks since they were young and feel insurcure in a larger tank, after a while im sure it would have explored more and likes it, i havent heard of many people filtering and heating they 2 gallon varses, have you?


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## Puffer Pita

You'll notice I said "tank" and not "vase." And I don't put them in larger tanks because I choose to not put them in larger tanks. As I said, when they were in larger tanks, they were miserable. They didn't "look" miserable, they WERE miserable. They laid on the substrate not moving much, wouldn't eat, etc. In the smaller tanks, they're active, eating quite well and building bubble nests.


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## bettaboy691

bettas brought up in larger TANKS are happy in them,thats the whole point of this topic, to get new bettaowners to CHOSE to have their betta living in a bigger tank, all mine are happy and healthy, and NOT kept in small containers.live i said earily, would you want to live in the downstaires toilet all you life? i wouldnt


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## Puffer Pita

Oddly enough, I don't equate my fish living in a tank to humans living in a toilet. Two very different things. I thought the point of this thread was to discuss inappropriate containers, not to force people to get large tanks for bettas. I guess I must have misunderstood the intent then. IMO, neither a 1g tank nor a 2g tank is in any way a "cruel" way to keep a betta. They are sufficient to provide a good, clean, warm home for them. I don't see anyone bashing people who keep goldfish in 10g tanks even though that's not the optimal situation for them, so why bash people who choose to keep bettas in a 1-2 gallon tank?


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## bettaboy691

your right abou one thing, it is to educate people about inappreate housing for betta.im not "forcing" you to buy a bigger tank, just explaining the benefits for the betta and yourself. living in a toliet is refered to as bettas living in their own waste if unfiltered and small as bathrooms are usally the smallest room in the house, just because fish aren't considered as "important" as people doesnt mean they dont deserve a good life.personally a 1g and 2g is wey too small for an adult betta. and as a matter of fact, i do tell people that keeping goldfish in tiny bowls is cruel and the fairground fish in a bag is damn right horrid.just because i started a topic on cruel betta homes, doesnt mean i dont care for goldfish, just they are more products on sale that are too small and i thought it would make a better disscussion.


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## (RC)

My Bettas are kept in 32oz cups which get 100% water changes everyday. The reason for not keeping them in larger containers is 100+ tanks would take up way to much room. Betta breeders are never going to start raising bettas in 5g or 10g tank because of room requirements. 


RC


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## Puffer Pita

bettaboy, the difference is keeping a goldfish in a small bowl IS cruel as it causes stunting, health problems and premature death. Keeping a human in a toilet is likewise cruel for the same reasons, health problems and premature death. Keeping bettas in a 1g tank (or even a 32 oz. cup) is NOT cruel as it does not affect their health or cause premature death. You may choose to keep them in larger tanks, and more power to you, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with keeping them in smaller tanks as long as they are well cared for.


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## bettaboy691

i accept that when breeding bettas its extreamly hard to have enought room and for hopefull the short period of time they are going to be in them its ok,they are only young bettas, but hopefully you provide bigger housing when they grow up, right?


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## bettaboy691

all im saying is why not give them mnore room, it may not stunt their growth, but uncared for does cause illness and death.just because you can keep them in small jars with otu ant visable effects, doesnt mean its right.the mental damage on bettas may be huge, nobody knows, but swimming around in circles all day would drive me crazy! in the wild they live in huge amounts of water, and you wouldnt put a puffer in a 5 gallon would you?so why should you a betta?


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## Puffer Pita

bettaboy691 said:


> in the wild they live in huge amounts of water


They do? Thats news to me. Where are these huge amounts of water bettas are found in?


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## (RC)

They stay in 32oz cups in my fish room as adults. Also talking about "mental damage" to bettas like they the mental capacity of humans makes no sense at all. Fish have what at best can be called a primitive brain. In the wild they pretty much , look for food, try not to get eaten, breed. That's pretty much it. No MTV, no ipods, no internet, no McD's.


RC


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## bettaboy691

in the wild, the water bettas live in may be shallow but are widespread across miles of rice fields.
RC: fair enough about the bettas mind stimulation but still...is their proof to back this up or just what you think?personally keeping fully grown adults in 32oz cups is far too small, compeared to that, the 1 gallon looks good, but that is my onion and im fully awear that you arnt going to buy 5 gallons for each of your bettas, thats why i keep a max. of 5 bettas therefore i can give each one,filtered,heated,clean water in a 5 gallon tank and looking after the bettas doesnt become a c**************** and more of a intresting and lovable hobby


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## bettaboy691

stared word is "c h o r e"


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## (RC)

Studies have been done on fishes ability to feel pain and they don't feel pain like we do because of their primitive brains. I've been raising Bettas in 32oz containers since 1991 without any problems and with my current system I can choose to have a continuous water change in each cup or 100% water change once or twice ( or more) a day so my Bettas are always in clean, heated, aged, fresh water. With my automatic water change system raising and showing Bettas is a very interesting and lovable hobby because I can do 20 spawns at a time if I want and still take care of the whole fish room in less then 2 hours a day counting 2 a day feedings for each tank and cup and daily water changes on everything.


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## bettaboy691

fair enough about the research on the fishes brain, but still i dont agree with keeping bettas in 32oz cups even if you can provide daily upkeep etc. ITS STILL TOO SMALL for my likieng. it may work for you but i dont have the cruelness running though my veins to look at such beautiful fish then look at the 32oz cups they are kept in and think i do a good job looking after them, i know you disagree but to be honest, i dont care, you have had your say and expressed your opion and theirs mine.


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## Zoe

I too hate seeing those miniature cups / vases / tanks. It gives people the impression that you can stick a betta in one of those, feed it a couple times a week, and then these people are surprised when 2 months later the betta start losing its fins and then dies.
Breeders can put bettas is small jars because they're aware of heating and clean water requirements. But as previously stated, a newbie isn't going to heat the room enough to keep the water warm enough. They aren't going to do water changes every day... So while a betta could be kept fairly healthy in a jar, I sure don't know about happy - and as far as athropomorphism goes, well, I don't care how primitive brained these fish are, there is definitely some level of interaction with their surroundings, and I can't see any creature with even a very basic awareness of their surroundings being happy where they cannot even turn around without hitting the side.
So, can you get away with cramming bettas into jars if you keep the water clean? Sure. Should you? Well, I would daresay that, no, you shouldn't. You say you can't keep 1000s of bettas in 5 gallon tanks each? Well, maybe it's time to cut back on the breeding, perhaps? I wonder how many bettas die each year, not from old age, but from improper care.

Frankly, it's a load of bull that bettas are miserable in big tanks. Sure, put a betta used to 1/2 litre of water in a big tank and of course he'll freak out. But I currently have a betta in a 10 gallon with some endlers and he's happy as a clam, and far from miserable.
It's also a load that bettas live in tiny, dirty puddles. They can survive in these conditions for a while because they can breathe air, but in normal conditions, they live in wide, flat expanses of warm water. If they all lived in puddles, how on earth would they manage to propagate their species?
It would be lovely if petstores stopped perpetuating these myths :S

And I am, if anything, even MORE concerned for the plight of goldfish. No one said it was okay to keep a goldfish in a bowl; I would not hesitate to tell someone that it isn't okay.

I guess there will always be people keeping bettas in jars for the purpose of mass breeding which, I guess, is necessary if we want to be able to buy pretty-coloured and long-finned bettas. They'll just have to plug their ears and keep trying to convince themselves that bettas live in tiny mud puddles and that anything more than 1/2 a gallon with terrify them to the point of a deadly heart attack.


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## bettaboy691

well said zoe, i 100% agree with what your saying,so glad we see eye to eye.
its pleasing to see im not fighting this battle on my own and they are people out they who want the best for their and all bettas,you made an excellent statment with all you said and especially the 2nd paragraph. you truely are a perfect betta owner


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## Puffer Pita

Zoe said:


> Frankly, it's a load of bull that bettas are miserable in big tanks. Sure, put a betta used to 1/2 litre of water in a big tank and of course he'll freak out. But I currently have a betta in a 10 gallon with some endlers and he's happy as a clam, and far from miserable.


The world would be a much happier place if people actually read what was written. Please show me where I said that "bettas are miserable in big tanks." I said MY bettas were, I never said anything about anyone else's. I was very clearly speaking about my OWN bettas and MY experiences with keeping them in a larger tank. 

I"m finding it really interesting how people insist on shoving their ideas of what is appropriate for something down other people's throats and its okay, but if someone else was doing it, they'd be flamed. Very interesting indeed. Whether you approve of it or not, the fact remains that keeping a betta in a c32 oz. cup with clean, warm water is not cruel and does not harm them in any way, shape or form. If you or anyone else can show scientific research that shows it harms them mentally, please feel free to let us know. Otherwise, I'll continue to believe that it doesn't, just as I continue to believe that making them flare on purpose stresses them out while others believe it doesn't and is fine.


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## (RC)

I don't think Bettas in the wild live in puddles. I keep my Bettas in a way that works best for me. I don't mass produce. I keep less then 12 fish from each spawn. I'm going to keep breeding and culling to produce the best quality show fish I can. Everyone is entitled to have an option. For anyone that is totally against breeders raising fish in small container... only buy Bettas from breeders that use 5G tanks to keep them in. You will find NO ONE to buy from. They have been raising in small container since they were first raised by breeders. You don't have to like they way I keep my fish and I don't have to change it because you don't. We'll all just have to accept we feel different about it and move on.


RC


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## bettaboy691

puffer: if you feel this topic if too "heated" for you, they stop posting, im sure u realized when u said u kept bettas in small jars they were going to be an agument against it.and true i cant find any proof it harms them in small containers, but can you produce a reliable source that says it doesnt?i dont think we are insisting out thought to make you upgrade to a bigger tank, just giving our opion like you are.


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## Zoe

I would venture to say that putting any animal in an enclosure that is not not much bigger than the animal itself is cruel. So, 1-2 gallons would be imo in the gray zone.

And yes, I am aware that you were refering to your own fish. But posting practical experience in a discussion forms automatically opens up whatever is said to rebuttal.
I, on the other hand, find it "very interesting indeed" that people post their opinions / experiences and then get offended and act as though their comment was "above reproach" because it is "only opinion or personal experience". While I don't agree with keeping bettas in small jars, I certainly am not personally offended by someone who disagrees with me (if I got offended by everyone who didn't agree with everything I opined on, well, I'd spend a loooot of my time being offended).
Moreover, if you know your personal experience is not the norm, then to use it as "proof" seems counterproductive. Were your bettas miserable in a large tank? Maybe, sure. Are most bettas miserable if raised in large tanks? No. You'll also note that I said moving a betta from a small cup to a large tank is traumatizing for a betta, which may or may not have been your case. When my boy went from a 1gallon thing to a real tank, he was definitely not impressed for about a week.

People shove their ideas down others' throats all the time. The shovee has the choice to ignore it, return the favour, be offended, etc.

I wonder what the world would be like if people had always said "The fact remains it will always be this way..." before women's suffrage, animals rights, abolition of slavery, etc. And while I don't believe that raising bettas in small jars is the most important issue in the world right now, I still don't believe it is an ethical way to raise an animal and I certainly won't keep my mouth shut about it just because breeders do it.


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## bettaboy691

here here, again just what i wanted to say but didnt know how.im glad your not afriad to speak out and say your piece.i so agree with what you said about jsut because its been going on for years and people do it all the time doesnt make it right.
a little off the topic but your aveator is so cute,lovely coloring


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## (RC)

My opinion is based on years of keeping Bettas and also from talking to MANY betta keepers around the world. I know it will not change anyone opinion but here is my background in Bettas.
I first started raising Bettas in 1991 and joined the IBC shortly after that. I've finished in the top 10 for the final year end points. I've raised 
just about every color and one time or another. I've also raised 5 or 
6 different wild types. I'm a IBC certified judge. I've been TA 
Library Chairman, Betta Pals Chairman , served on the Executive 
board and currently hold a position on the judging Board. I'm 
president of CNYBC and a member of PABS http://www.pabs92.org/ which 
are chapters of the IBC. I'll be judging the PABS show in MAY 
and the IBC Convention in June. I'm also a Fellow of Congress in the IBC which is given to members that have proven to be top breeders and supporter of the Betta Community. The IBC is the largest Betta organization in the world with Chapters in the US, Canada, Asia,Europe and Australia. I answer between 20-50 emails almost daily from people with questions about keeping,breeding and showing Bettas. I've had people travel from as far away as England to get fish. I've sent 100's of free pairs of Bettas to new IBC members through the IBC Betta Pals program. I'm pretty well known for listening to everyones opinion and taking it into consideration. That being said I'm not going to change my opinion that bettas do great in small containers with good care anymore then anyone here is going to start believing that they don't need bigger tanks.


RC


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## bettaboy691

keeping bettas isnt all about whos got the best color and how many times bred, its about having a life in your hand and you do the best you can to make it happy and enjoy its life,however long it lives for,for most people, its a chance to own a relative easy pet that can interact with them and can apricate the care the owner provides,


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## Guest

bettaboy691 said:


> and true i cant find any proof it harms them in small containers, but can you produce a reliable source that says it doesnt?


Yes. How about the many people who have kept them in small containers, such as (RC) here, and have had them live long, normal lives? I'd say that counts as reliable proof.


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## bettaboy691

but what about owners who have kept them in larger tank with loads of swimming space and looked after well.i didnt post it earily because i knew it would cause another agument, but i have to counteract against your post as im aganst it


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## (RC)

A Betta will live a long health life no matter what size container it is in IF you take care of it. You could keep it in a unheated 100G tank and it would still be unhealthy. It's all about the care. The smaller the container the more care. Any breeder that is showing Bettas have to keep them in near perfect conditions or they will lose the near perfect finnage they are working for. Millions of bettas have been raised in small container. I call that pretty good proof. You can have your opinion, but that does nothing to change that fact.


RC


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## Zoe

Well there's no question that a betta can live out a normal, healthy lifespan in a jar, if the water is kept warm and clean.
For me it's more about quality than quantity, or what is "possible" to do. I understand that for breeding purposes, well, it's more or less the way you have to go if you want to produce thousands of fry. I feel the same way when I see angelfish breeding setups... all these pairs of gorgeous angelfish in bare 15 or 20 gallon tanks, just endlessly producing fry. What a waste of life and beauty.


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## bettaboy691

just becaus its been done for years doesnt make it right, its just because of all these myths going aroung that bettas live in small waters in the wild started all this years back.if it hadnt all started and they were considered to be kept like angels in bigger tanks, would you still breed so many and show them, or wouldnt you be intrested anymore?


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## Guest

bettaboy691 said:


> but what about owners who have kept them in larger tank with loads of swimming space and looked after well.i didnt post it earily because i knew it would cause another agument, but i have to counteract against your post as im aganst it


What about the owners who have kept them in larger tanks? I didn't say that those owners are keeping them wrong, I'm just showing you that bettas can be kept perfectly happy in small containers. And where are you getting this idea that if they are in small containers they are looked after poorly? (RC) said himself that he changes the water multiple times a day. If they are in a small container, they can still be 'looked after well.'
Sorry, but that argument really didn't say anything.


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## (RC)

I started out breeding angels and also bred Discus for a while while I was working wild Type Bettas. The discus fry were raised to nickel size in 10G tanks and got 3 100% water changes a day... That made Bettas seem easy.


RC


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## bettaboy691

thats a good way of putting it, its quality not quantity


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## (RC)

bettaboy691 said:


> just becaus its been done for years doesnt make it right, its just because of all these myths going aroung that bettas live in small waters in the wild started all this years back.if it hadnt all started and they were considered to be kept like angels in bigger tanks, would you still breed so many and show them, or wouldnt you be intrested anymore?


 No Breeder is keeping Bettas in small container because of some old myth. They keep them in small conatiner because otherwise they kill each other. If I had to keep Bettas in 20G tanks like angel pairs I wouldn't breed them because my fish room isn't that big, but since they don't need to be kept like angels that's not a problem. Did you know the Bettas you buy at most fish stores come from overseas where they keep 1000's of Bettas in little tiny flat sided wiskey bottles ? Ive seen the pictures. The jars are about 6x6x 1 inch wide. They never come out of the bottles until they are packed to be sent to wholesalers so everytime you rescue a Betta from a store that buys them from many commercial breeders that is what you are supporting. My 32oz cups hold 3+times the water.


RC


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## Puffer Pita

RC, I've seen them shipped in what were bags about the size of a 1 gallon Ziploc bag, sealed into 9 sections, one betta per section. Couldn't have been more than a couple of tablespoons of water in each "pouch" thing. Awful,eh?


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## (RC)

I've seen the same thing. I've also seen saltwater clown fish shipped to the store in a couple ounces of water. Bettas at one time were shipped between wet newspaper. It's all about making money for commercial breeders so they do anything to save a few bucks. If bettas had to be raised in 5g tanks and shipped in a large amount of water they would cost huge money like discus do and we would still only have veiltail bettas because all the CT and HM types were developed by breeders keeping Bettas in small containers over the 60+ years.They would also all be red/green multis with short fins since all the colors and long fins were developed by the same breeders.


RC


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## Puffer Pita

My blue boy, Oscar, was a Wal-Mart purchase from a plastic cup with blue water. He's given me a few scares but he's still doing well a year later. Ziggy, my red betta, came from an LFS that breeds them so I know exactly how old he is. If I ever get another one, I'd definitely go with a reputable breeder rather than a commercial source. I'm still very bummed that my black butterfly SDT died prematurely.


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## bettaboy691

im not saying they arent kept in the most horrid conditions before raching our petshops, the crap each betta must go though is unbleavable, thats why i thinks its even more important to give it more space and a better life than it had before, just because some a**hole in another country thinks its ok to send a betta across the world in teaspoons of water, doesnt mean you should let it live like that, and maybe you 32oz jars are 3 times bigger, but are they still big enough? in my opion..no
"we would still only have veiltail bettas because all the CT and HM types were developed by breeders keeping Bettas in small containers over the 60+ years"these would eventually been breed the proper way in resonable sized tanks,but anyway all mine are veiltails except one crowntail, as i think they look the best,all mine veiltails are from the aquatic shops spawn,knowing they all had enough space to live before me buying one,the crowntail was taken from the stock it had, even tho i know it had had a terrible life befor, i knew i could give it a good furture with me, with the perfect condidions, even down to the indian almond leaves in the water.


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## (RC)

Every 6 months or so this same thread gets started and always end pretty much the same way. We all still feel the same way we did when it started, but at least this one stayed civil. We all have opinions and nothing is going to change them. I'm glad you are giving your bettas great conditions to live in. I'm doing the same thing IMHO so it's time we move on before Dogs&Fish comes back and tell us we're all wrong for not fighting Bettas.:argue: 


RC


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## bettaboy691

good summary, i know we are all passionate about bettas and we all have different ways of looking after them, none of us are going to change our ways but atleast we got something clear: the topic of keeping bettas in nessary sized aquariums is definatly not one sides, both agument for each side. but saying that i still feel strongly against small cups and jars for bettas to live in


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## (RC)

And I feel just as strongly that my way is right as well. Nothing is going to change that for either of us.


RC


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## TigerBarb12

i think the ideal tank for a single betta is 2 gallon, but i think they should be ok in a 1/2 gallon or so.


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## sollie7

*I have one of those tanks ( 2nd picture) except it two of those but together intended for two but it has a removable divider. any way I took the divider out and my fish loves that tank!! Infact im about to go buy another one for my other betta. I think the double on is plenty big.*


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## Crayola105

The only reason I have my bettas in a 1 gallon mini tank is that I'm just like 10 (there is no age limit!) and my parents think it's impractical to get 3 5 gallon tanks just for my bettas.


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## Cichlidsrule

I had a betta that was kept in a 2 gallon and it got very depressed after a year or so. However, my grandfather keeps a male & female betta in a 10gal and both still lie on the bottom and don't move (although the male has started a small bubblenest)(and this could also be because the female is rather swollen with eggs ). It seems to me there could be a lot of reasons why bettas are unhappy & I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the tank.
Still, I hate seeing bettas kept in tanks like the ones in your pics bettaboy. Those tanks are too small if only for medical reasons-- the fish will not grow and will not be able to move. But I think a one or two gallon tank would be just as fine as a five or ten gallon.


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## Guest

those vace and root ones are fine as long as therre is swiimming room, you change the water, and give the bettas food!


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## Sander

I compleatly agree with you BettaBoy! Those small bowls are so cruel, I keep my betta Red in a 10 gallon tank, may possible move him to my 29, depends whether or not I get a couple angels. I had him in my 29 then moved him to the 10. Haven't really decided yet, kinda in tank limbo! lol I have a few more inches, fish wise to workwith until I'm fully stocked for both tanks.


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## Sander

The point to those vase/ anything under 5 gallons is that yes a betta can live... Now notice I said LIVE not Thrive! Bettas are tropical fish and will be lethargic with out filtered and heated water. Tell me, those of you who keep your bettas in tiny little boxes of water, if you were the size of a betta in a tank the size you keep anything that is classified Deco Art, vase, BETTA BOWL would YOU be happy with just enough water to turn around in? But that is just me. I myself would rather see my fish happy and healthy then depressed and lethargic.


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## Betta1

I just got a new Halfmoon betta and was so excited when I was waiting to pick it up that I was makeing plans to make this fish the centerpiece of a 10g tank. When I got the fish and put it in a 1g temp.... The thing can barely swim, it floats at the top and hovers around the edge, it doesn't even use this 1g. I couldn't even see the thing most of the time so I went to petco and got a small all acrylic aquarium and he couldn't be happier, it probably isn't even half a gallon but the poor thing can't swim enough to use more and this way I get to see my fish.


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## jdwoodschild

It all depends on how much care you want to put in to keeping your fish. Mine are all kept in 32 ounces, but they are kept at 78-80 degrees and we do religious water changes atleast once a day, if not twice a day. All of mine are happy, healthy, and as feisty as could be. The fish with the heavier fins, such as halfmoons or big finned double tails have a much harder time swimming with any sort of current if you have a normal filter in the tank, and they are territorial and often will choose a corner or small area of the tank and just chill out there.

There is no right or wrong way to keep your betta, as long as they have fresh clean water, they aren't over fed or under fed, and they are in a good temperature range for them. Telling other people they are wrong for keeping their bettas in a "too small" size tank makes you wrong. Every one is different, and every one has different opinions.

I think this topic is done. It is only going to keep causing rough feelings between people and causing problems if it continues.


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## Sander

Just because the fish is heathly doesn't mean the fish is happy, If I my fist home was a small 8x8 room and I knew nothing else I may be okay as far as health goes, but just think how happy I would be knowing there was a much bigger home available. I'm not saying go out at by your betta a 300 gallon tank, but even a 29 such as mine is a good home, and you can give him some tank buddies, as long as they are not the same color as the betta and of course not a male or female... if you put a female there should be 4-5 that way the male does pester them. I'm nottrying to start a fight, but open the eys of people unaware that their bettas would be so much happier in a larger enclosure, a 10 is the smallest I would personally place a betta, with a couple other fish a maybe a snail for the clean up crew


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## jdwoodschild

I put my male into a 2 gallon tank for a few days because I wished to take pictures of him, and our round sided cups aren't very good for that. He just huddled in one corner, didn't eat, didn't swim around, just kinda sat in the corner. Even when I put a female next to him he got a little active, but when I moved the female from his "corner", he wouldn't even follow to where she was going. After she was moved a certain amount away from his spot, he just sat in a corner, lethargic. I did atleast a 50% water change on him every day, and his feeding schedual never changed. Kept him in for a week to see if he would get used to it and perk up so he would be better for taking pictures of, and he never did. The longer he was in there, the more lethargic he became. He is one of my most active ahd feisty fish; he's the one that will flair and get mad at his reflection because he thinks it's fun! In the 2 gallon, he was shy and scared. Moved him back to the jar that we keep all of our fish in, he perked right up with in a minute and was back! 

And in your opinion bettas should be kept in more. If you have the time and space for it, go ahead! That's awsome that your fish isn't like mine and scared of his own shadow as soon as I put him in anything bigger. He is also one of the fish that won't spawn for me, and we use 10 gallon tanks, which he also isn't thrilled with, and I think it's because he gets nervous and chooses a spot and chills, and is interested in the girl when she comes over to him. My other fish don't care, they have been in ten gallons with lots of plants, and they have been in the 32 ounce jars. 

That, and I think a male and a female, unless put in with just eachother, would kill anything they were put in with. They've almost killed the fish that I have put them in with when I've spawned them, and the only things they haven't managed to maul half to death is eachother!

I think that people should try different things to see what their fish likes if they have the room, and especially so if they only have a couple and aren't working on a major breeding program. Otherwise, if a smaller container is the only thing that they can be kept in, it should be very clean and very well taken care of, with either a good and slow filter, or religious water changes.


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## Damon

As this topic always leads to nowhere (on this and countless other boards) and we all have differing opinions on the subject we'll leave it be.......


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## Sander

Damon as true as that is this is an Discusion Board, we are talking, that it, if you doen want to read it then don't it is human nature to argue about what you feel passionate about.


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## SueM

OK, I can't take it anymore. All of you have have very valid points for the way you keep your bettas. This had been a contravercy since the dawn of Aquariums. With all types of fish... what size tank? 
Have any of you wondered just how those poor bettas get into those little jars at the pet store?? Well that little jar is a huge cry from how they came into the wholesaler, Take a look at this, yes theres water.... about a 1/2 an ounce...


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## SueM

And they are in those tiny bags for at least a week, sometimes more. So when they get to the store, the bags get opened and they finally get at least a small jar, Im sure when they do, it feels like they have heaven.
The first time I saw this, my heart just crashed, I dug through and found many almost dead and brought them home. At one point I had almost a 100 of them. Got them healthy and found them homes. But then had to give up, it was a loosing battle, and from that point I just avoided that part of the wholsale.


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## (RC)

At one time Bettas were shipped wholesale between sheets of wet newspaper.


RC


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## (RC)

Has anyone ever proven a fish can be happy or sad ? I'm not talking about being "happy" to see you.. since they just want to get food when they see you, but why do we think they can feel real emotions ? 


RC


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## fishiesrfriends

I remember seeing a breeding trap at a pet shop and it said...
"birthing tank for livebearers
rearing tank for small fry
single betta display"
It was very sad  I saw that second pic at my lfs as well:-x poor bettas, so many fish are misunderstood and so many are ketp in small tanks, it's just sick...


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## CVV1

bettaboy691 said:


> fair enough about the research on the fishes brain, but still i dont agree with keeping bettas in 32oz cups even if you can provide daily upkeep etc. ITS STILL TOO SMALL for my likieng. it may work for you but i dont have the cruelness running though my veins to look at such beautiful fish then look at the 32oz cups they are kept in and think i do a good job looking after them, i know you disagree but to be honest, i dont care, you have had your say and expressed your opion and theirs mine.


now i dont think u can call it cruel if he he changes it everyday, or twice a day.


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## Zoe

When we moved our betta from a vase to a 16 gallon tank, he spent a week sulking in the corner. But eventually he did settle in, and seems much healthier in a larger tank. He swims up and down and across the tank, holds his own against a gourami, and isn't particularly shy. I really think it's a matter of giving them enough time to acclimate to their new environment, and providing lots of plants like they'd have in the wild.

I don't think that ANY fish is meant to be stationnary.

And yeah, they are shipped in awful conditions, kept in awful conditions at the LFS, and this issue has been rehashed over and over. So what, as someone else mentioned, this is a discussion board. What's wrong with talking about it? Heck, if one person reads this and decides that they want to put their betta in a larger tank, or at least that they need to do more frequent water changes, then what's the problem?


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## BloomiNGodsName

my Quinten started out in a 1gallon bowl...then got put into a 5 1/2 gallon tank...which is his current home he seemed fine in the 1 gallon bowl but jus seemed crammed to me...so I got him a bigger home...
Jerushiah is now in the 1gallon bowl which I;ve been using as my "medical tank"...and she's doing lots better...when I got her she looked fine...but then started showing signs of sickness so she was left in the 1gallon bowl to be taken care of...and now she's over it and I got a 10gallon tank that's currently cycling jus waiting for her *~she'll get other female Betta's put in with her later on...~*

I dunno why some ppl are against the smaller bowl...but to me they jus look crammed in...like they don't got the room they want to stretch their fins...

...as for the Vases...I totally disagree with them...Joseph...a 2 yr old I use to babysit...got a Betta for his bday *~his mom helped him care for it...Joseph got to feed it though...~* anyways...his Grandma had gotten it for him...along with a vase to put him in, I told Joseph's mom that the Betta looked unhappy in that lil space and she agreed her next paycheck that lil Betta got his own personal 10 gallon tank with plants...he was happy and Joseph could actually sit and watch "Ish" swim
...so I am against the vases...but the bowls seem jus fine for temporary...but I'd nvr keep a fish in that small of a space long term...I mean...I had 2 Guppies growing up and they had a 6gallon bowl...so yeah I like to give my fish room to swim...I guess tis jus personal preference on some things though...


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## Zoe

> but the bowls seem jus fine for temporary


The problem with 'temporary', is that it sometimes becomes permanent due to lack of money, time, interest etc.


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## BloomiNGodsName

Zoe said:


> The problem with 'temporary', is that it sometimes becomes permanent due to lack of money, time, interest etc.


this is true...but if you;re like me and got 3 extra tanks and the "temporary" is to make sure you're not putting a sick Betta into the tank with other Bettas/Fish or the tank needs to cycle a couple more days...I don;t see a problem with it

...as for the time...the way I see it is if you don;t wanna put the time into the fish don;t get the fish...
and interest...if you loose interest in the fish I feel sry for them cuz they;d suffer in the end...


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## khachdatinh

it's not the tank size. its the laziness of the owner that is cruel.


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