# CO2 Mandatory?



## locojay (May 22, 2006)

I want to make my 55g my first planted tank. The fixtures that came with the tank give me .62wpg so I'm looking at some lights to get me over 2wpg. 

Is it worth it to spend the money on the lights if I don't do any CO2 induction? Will the lights by themselves make a big difference in the plants I can keep? What kind of difference do airpumps and airstones make if any?

I don't really want to get into CO2 and bubble counters right now. I'm sure I will in the future, but right now I'm just getting anxious to get this tank up and running.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

If you aren't going to do CO2 injections, you should stick to stock lighting and low light plants. If you go 2wpg or higher, you will need CO2. There are some very cheap and effective CO2 kits. I use the Hagen and Red Sea kits and the work wonderfully. Airstones help create current, but if you have a filter that creates a good bit of current, you won't need one. Current is good as it keeps the water flowing, which prevents stagnant spots, which helps a great deal with algae control.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Airstones also degas the natural co2 into the water. Not what you want when going with a planted tank. If you have chance of going co2 later get a 4x55 4 foot fixture. Just run 2 bulbs for now and you can run the other 2 later if you do go co2. Cheaper than buying another fixture later.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Airstones also degas the natural co2 into the water. Not what you want when going with a planted tank. If you have chance of going co2 later get a 4x55 4 foot fixture. Just run 2 bulbs for now and you can run the other 2 later if you do go co2. Cheaper than buying another fixture later.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Wait, so, airstone + CO2 = algae? Oops...


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

No, airstone+CO2=less CO2. I use them in my smaller tanks where I use Flourish Excel rather than CO2 injection and its really improved the algae issues. I've also used them in larger tanks with CO2 injection with great success, although the CO2 generation doesn't last as long as without an airstone.


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2006)

I have a Coralife fixture with 2 65w bulbs...which gives be around 2.4 watts per gallon....and I dont use CO2. I have alot of fast growing stem plants and no algae issues at this time.

This is my fixture.

If you think you'll want CO2 in the future, then I'll also suggest getting a 4 bulb fixture and just running 2 of the them right now. Most 4 bulb fixtures have 2 power cords to make that possible.

So I'll be the one to disagree...you can have over 2 watts per gallon and not use CO2. Just stick closer to 2 watts per gallon than 3...because thats where you'll definitely start having algae issues. And with 2wpg, I'd pack the tank full of fast growing stem plants...otherwise, with just a few plants in the tank, you will have algae.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

JustOneMore20 said:


> I have a Coralife fixture with 2 65w bulbs...which gives be around 2.4 watts per gallon....and I dont use CO2. I have alot of fast growing stem plants and no algae issues at this time.
> 
> This is my fixture.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## locojay (May 22, 2006)

OK, it sounds like maybe I should think about going with some CO2. I don't think I want to go with a lot of plants. I was actually planning on starting out with just a few plants to see how it goes. For some reason I thought it was going to be expensive to add CO2 but is this kit all I need? 

http://www.aquariumguys.com/nutrafinco2.html

For some reason I thought it would be expensive to do CO2 but if I can do it for $20 and it's good for my tank then I'll do it.

I'm a little bit confused about this airstone business.



> No, airstone+CO2=less CO2.





> I've also used them in larger tanks with CO2 injection with great success, although the CO2 generation doesn't last as long as without an airstone.


What kind of success? From the sounds of it, the airstone would be counter productive.  I'd like to use a couple airstones if I can. 

Can anyone direct me to somewhere I can read up on some of these basics?


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2006)

I can't direct you to any reading...but I'll comment on the CO2 part.



> For some reason I thought it was going to be expensive to add CO2 but is this kit all I need?
> For some reason I thought it would be expensive to do CO2 but if I can do it for $20 and it's good for my tank then I'll do it.


That is basically yeast CO2 in a fancy container. Its just like the DIY method, but prepackaged. And that particular "system" is only rated for a 20g, so you need 3 of them to do any good on a 55g tank.

The Red Sea Turbo system is a better prepackaged system, but you'd still need 2 of them, since they are rated for 40g. Also, you wouldn't have a stable CO2 level and that can cause algae problems too.

You could put together a DIY yeast CO2 system for cheaper than buying the prepackaged stuff. All you need is a couple 2 liter bottles. Juice bottles work better than soda because they are flatter on the bottom. You'd have to mix up a new batch every couple weeks though and that could get old after awhile. Here is a DIY CO2 article that explains what you'll need and how to put it together. The biggest problem with DIY is that the CO2 isn't stable. If you don't want alot of plants, it may be more work than its worth to setup a DIY system.

Instead, you could just get a light fixture that gives you closer to 1 or 1.5 watt per gallon. That would mean buying a fixture like this one which holds 2 32w bulbs and would put you around 1.1wpg. The problem would come in the future, if you decide you want more light. Then you'd have to buy yet another fixture.

Also, you have to think about what will fit under your canopy. It may be better for you to stick to really low light plants such as Java fern and anubias and hold off on other plants until you are ready to really plant it. That way you won't be stuck buying another fixture in the future and you won't have to worry about a DIY system for just a few plants.

How about some inspiration from my jungle  :









edit: Ok so I lied. I have some links to articles, but not about airstones. 
Basics to Planted tanks
Another DIY CO2 article
More CO2


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## locojay (May 22, 2006)

Thanks for the info. I'm going to read up on all of it, but before I do......

That's a nice jungle you got there! Is that the tank with the 2.4wpg and no co2? I was thinking about asking you for pics of it too. Can you list some of the plants you have in there? The light fixture I'm thinking about getting, that I think will fit under my canopy is a 2x65w. If I can pull that off with only the fixture than I just might have to do that.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2006)

That is the 55g with 2.4wpg and no CO2.

I am happy to list my plants...it is quite a mix:
-Cryptocorynes (wendtii red and green, lutea, willisi, retrospiralis)
-Hygrophila polysperma (middle)
-Hygrophila polysperma "sunset" (middle back...pink tops)
-Hygrophila polysperma "ceylon" (back left..skinny leaves)
-Hygro. augustifolia (back left..long kind of skinny leaves)
-Red Tiger Lotus (front lily pad looking leaves)
-Bacopa caroliniana (back right)
-Java fern (on the wood)
-Anubias barteri (in the back left)
-Echinodorus tennellus..aka Pygmy Chain Sword (in the front)
-Rotala rotundifolia
-Crinum onion plant (long flat leaves on the right)

I tried to help you see what each one looks like...if thats possible in my picture. Most of the plants, especially in the middle of the tank, are Hygro polysperma. I actually like this plant, even though it is considered a weed in the US. It grows super fast. The tank actually looks worse right now...I'm in need of a trim. I'm going to trim tomorrow and I'll post pictures of the tank in the Photo section if you'd like to check it out.

I believe alot of the reason I don't have an algae problem right now, is that the Hygro grows so fast. You can't buy it in the US, but I could send you some stems if you get the 2x65w fixture and want a fast growing plant to put in the tank. And there are other fast growing stem plants that could help with the algae besides the ones I have.

You don't need to have a jungle to outcompete the algae. You could have it moderately planted and include some fast growers in there. I just wouldn't make it a majority of slower growing plants like Crypts and Anubias under 130w of light because that would be an algae invitation.


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## locojay (May 22, 2006)

JustOneMore20 said:


> I could send you some stems if you get the 2x65w fixture and want a fast growing plant to put in the tank.


You're the bomb!  

OK, I'm convinced. I'm going to do it. Due to budget requirements it will be a month or 2 to get the lights and substrate (I'm dying over here) but it looks like it's going to be worth the wait. Until then I have I have a good list of plants to start researching.

Thanks for the help everyone.

JOM, I'll be looking for your pics.


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

think of your plants the same way you do your livestock. 2.5 wpg is the CO2 threshhold, also light spectrum plays a factor as well. if you are using 67k bulbs, your plants will grow slower thus their need for ferts and CO2 is less. 10k bulbs grow your plants at a higher rate (turbo charged), which then your plants will need more nutients more frquently. even at 2wpg co2 should still be on your list. fish need a variety of nutrients to maximise health, so do plants. So dont deprive your plants of co2 even though you could get away with it. give your plants the same attention as your livestock and you will be much happier with the growth and look of the plants. its late and I'm tired so I hope this post makes sense  I guess my point is it's healthier for your plants to have CO2 injection then not, so why not give them the same care as you would your fish yes the startup cost is a few bucks, but for a 55g tank your annual cost after startup will only be $10 for the gas. 
initial startup cost for Pressurised co2 is in the $200 neighbourhood. tank and reg. Reactors and bubble counters can easily be made by you for $15 and you wont need to buy them ever again. also be careful of surface movement. the more you have the faster the gas exchange, and more gas will be required to keep your co2 at 25-30ppm where it needs to be for healthy plants. sorry for the long post  hope this helps. I dont disagree with the previous posts, I just see it a little different. read up on it as you said and I'm sure you will make the right choice.  nite all

Ziggy.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Just an FYI for those reading this post. There is absolutely NO difference in the energy or par given off on a 55 watt bulb or 65 watt bulb. They are completely identical with the exception of length. For all intents and purposes 2x65 is 2x55. Dont think the 65 watt bulb is better. Its not. Its still 110 watts.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2006)

Yes CO2 is better for plants, but you can have healthy plants without CO2. I don't disagree with you either girth, but I consider my plants healthy, even though I don't have CO2. They don't show signs of deficiency right now. And I don't have much algae at the moment...just a few spots on the glass (in my 55g). I fertilize them weekly and they are very happy. Not everyone can buy pressurized CO2 for all their planted tanks.  I would love to, but its just not possible right now.

locojay: You have plenty of time to decide what lighting you want and if you want to get into CO2. Think about it....read the posts...you can google CO2 and see if you think its for you. But, you can have a planted tank without injecting CO2.


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## locojay (May 22, 2006)

From the understanding I have so far, CO2 is better but not mandatory. So based on that and the fact that I'm dying over here looking at this tank empty, I'm going to proceed without it. But I do definitely plan on adding it maybe six to nine months after the tank is up and running. This way I'll get my tank running sooner and I'll get to see the difference for myself the CO2 has on the plants. Sound like a plan?




girth vader said:


> also be careful of surface movement. the more you have the faster the gas exchange, and more gas will be required to keep your co2 at 25-30ppm where it needs to be for healthy plants.


This would apply to the airstones right? So it sounds like I can use an airstone or 2 but it's going to cost me more gas. I like using airstones so if my cost of running my CO2 goes from $10 a year to $30 I'm ok with that. If there's more to it than that and I'm not understanding please let me know.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Correct. Co2 means faster uptake of nutrients. This equates to better growth which inhibits algae from growing (you will ALWAYS have some algae). Certain types of plants have to intake nutrients fast to survive and thus these require more co2. The uptake rates of plants vary. Some plants can modify uptake and can grow under most environments. Some are due to be slow growers peferring stability to growth rate (anubias). Some just dont have the ability to uptake co2 and nutrients at excellerated rates.

So yes you can have great tanks without added co2. They may not grow as fast (well actually they wont) but they can grow and be healthy. You just have to be sure not to dose too many ferts as the uptake will be slower.


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

bottom line. plants NEED CO2. It just depends on where it comes from. Aluminum tank, Flourish excel, or the plants themselves


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

True (though plants actually require carbon. A mistake I also make when writing) . Plants need carbon but not all plants require the same amount. Co2 is ALWAYS present in the water through surface exchange (ambient levels are approx 4% depending on water temp). There is a lower threshold that will not be breached if there is any surface agitation. Plants also use O2 at night and release co2. Using products like flourish excell add a source of carbon thats plants can readily uptake without spending lots of energy converting it to a form more easily consumeable.


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