# Add substrate to established tank



## mmseng

Hey I've got a 75g that's been going for a year or so. It's been "planted" the whole time but my plants never last very long. They've got sufficient light, but there's no plant-specific substrate, just 2 or 3 inches of plain gravel.

I originally made a homemade CO2 injection system which turned out poorly because all my joints ended up turning brittle and cracking/leaking. I'm going to redo all that with better materials eventually, but first I figure I should cover my more basic bases by getting some beneficial substrate in there.

However when I read through some tutorials for starting a planted tank, it sounded like adding the substrate was a very messy procedure in terms of water quality. So my question is, is there going to be anyway to add some substrate to help my plants without completely screwing up my fish's water? The tank is basically stocked and I have no real means of temporarily relocating all the fish for an extended period of time, not to mention just catching them all would take hours.

If this is possible, how much and what kinds of substrate should I consider adding? Thanks for any help,

== Matt


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## Guest

You can grow plans just fine in regular gravel. 

How much light does the tank have and what plants have you tried and not grown well with? Nutrients may be another issue if you don't dose anything.

As long as you dose some nutrients (assuming you have adequate light) into the water, you should be able to grow a wide variety of plants with just regular gravel.


But, if you want to change substrates, the plant specific ones are going to be expensive for a 75g. Flourite might be the cheapest option. If you can find Turface pro, it has no nutrients, but it holds in nutrients that you dose into the water. It is pretty inexpensive and comes in 50lb bags. The good plant substrates are Flourite, Eco Complete, and Aquasoil. Onyx sand is pretty good, but will make the water hard and I believe your pH is already up there. 

Also, speaking of pH....not all plants do well in hard water and high pH, so perhaps that could be another reason for the plants not doing well.


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## mmseng

pH is a stable 8.2, and hardness seems to vary between 5 and 9 or so.

I've got 3 48" bulbs all three coralife brand. One is a "6700K F28-T5-BP", one is a "Colormax F28-T5-BP", and the third just says "F40-T5-BP". I guess I'm not exactly sure what all that means, or what the specific wattage and stuff is, it always seemed like a lot though. They stay on 12 hours a day, which I guess is a kind of a lot actually.

I've tried a lot of different plants, but to be honest I never remember the names. They always seem great at first but slowly wither, loose leaves/blades (mostly due to stem breakage) and tend to get taken over by algae. I see my algae eaters on them a lot, but they don't seems to keep up with it. I've got 3 farlowella and 2 plecos.

Most of the smaller plants succumb to the fish picking at them and uprooting for the most part before they even have much of a chance to become sickly looking, so I've stuck with bigger plants.

Here's the first batch I tried, the lace plants in the last pic of this batch lasted the longest, but eventually got torn up:
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4068&d=1224039625
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4069&d=1224039625
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4070&d=1224039625
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4071&d=1224039735

Here's the latest, the smaller ones got pretty bad so I removed them. The long-bladed ones in this pic have done the best so far out of anything I've had, but even they are starting to darken and the blades are starting to curl, although they haven't really lost any blades yet. I just stuck in two big good-looking amazon swords as well. So I've only got 4 plants currently those swords and the two long-bladed ones in this pic:
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4072&d=1224039735


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## jones57742

mmseng said:


> Hey I've got a 75g that's been going for a year or so. It's been "planted" the whole time but my plants never last very long. They've got sufficient light, but there's no plant-specific substrate, just 2 or 3 inches of plain gravel.
> However when I read through some tutorials for starting a planted tank, it sounded like adding the substrate was a very messy procedure in terms of water quality. So my question is, is there going to be anyway to add some substrate to help my plants without completely screwing up my fish's water? The tank is basically stocked and I have no real means of temporarily relocating all the fish for an extended period of time, not to mention just catching them all would take hours.
> 
> If this is possible, how much and what kinds of substrate should I consider adding? Thanks for any help,


Matt:

Although I could save you some grief by helping you map out the strategy you are correct that inducing an improved substrate into your 75G would still be "a h...l of mess" (an improved substrate would consist of an 1" of aggregate overlaying 2" of laterite material overlaying another 1" of aggregate).

I very much enjoy the aesthetics of the black aggregate which is your current substrate and although I have an improved substrate many folks have been very successful in the growth and health of plants with a substrate such as yours.

Before getting into this substrate change ordeal I would focus on fertilization, lighting intensity and lighting duration ie.
what is your current fertilization protocol;
what is your current lighting; and
what is your current lighting period?

I presume that the tank dimensions are 48"x18"x20"?




mmseng said:


> I originally made a homemade CO2 injection system which turned out poorly because all my joints ended up turning brittle and cracking/leaking. I'm going to redo all that with better materials eventually, but first I figure I should cover my more basic bases by getting some beneficial substrate in there.


Matt:

The brittle and cracking is easily overcome by using high quality air line tubing.

The leaking is easily overcome by using fittings instead of just holes with glue around the tubing.

TR


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## Guest

I believe the number behind the "F" on the bulbs is the wattage, meaning you only have 96 watts over the tank. That is enough for low light plants. If you aren't interested in adding more light, you should stick to Java fern, Anubias, Anacharis, Cryptocorynes, and maybe Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis). The first 2 need to be tied to something (wood or rocks) but the others can be buried in the substrate. You can buy root tabs to go under those plants to provide nutrients and also start using a micro nutrient mix like Flourish (made by Seachem). 

DIY CO2 isn't really effective on tanks larger than about 30g. Sure you can try having several 2L bottles or something really big for the mix, but its pretty inconsistent and just doesn't produce enough co2 for large tanks. That being said, your lighting isn't high enough that you would need co2. If you stick to the lower light plants, you could be fine without it for sure.

Some other plants that could possibly work would be Pennywort, Hornwort, Watersprite, and Hygrophila corymbosa.

While a different substrate could make a difference in plant growth, I think you'd be fine keeping that substrate, adding some root tabs, and choosing plants that will grow in that lighting.

IMO Swords need about 2 watts per gallon (you have about 1.28wpg) and need nutrients either from the substrate or in the water column.


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## jones57742

Matt:

Please excuse me as I was trying to get to the office early this morning and did not see your second post which answers my lighting duration and possibly lighting intensity question.

I believe your bulbs to be*54W T5HO*?

If so you will be able to enjoy plants health and growth except those which are typically styled "hard to grow" and "very hard to grow".




JustOneMore20 said:


> DIY CO2 isn't really effective on tanks larger than about 30g. Sure you can try having several 2L bottles or something really big for the mix, but its pretty inconsistent and just doesn't produce enough co2 for large tanks. That being said, your lighting isn't high enough that you would need co2. If you stick to the lower light plants, you could be fine without it for sure.


Matt:

JOM and I have a long standing "run and gun battle" over this issue as well as another.

The CO2 will help your plants health and growth in a 75G tank.

Guru's like JOM typically maintain 20 to 30PPM of CO2 in their tanks whereas no CO2 induction typically yields CO2 concentrations in the range of 2PPM.

IMHO with DIY CO2 you will be able to attain in excess of 5PPM which will assist with plant health and growth.


*Last Item:*

JOM mentioned fert tabs but I have no experience with them as I have an improved substrate.

I do believe that, based on my experience with liquid and dry fertilizers, a proper fertilization protocol will help you a bunch with your plants.

TR


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## mmseng

I see. I didn't realize my wattage was so low, relatively.

I don't mind sticking to low-light plants, and I'll look into the suggestions, but JOOC, what would it take to get a higher wpg? More bulbs, or just higher wattage/brighter bulbs? I knew some bulbs can get really expensive, I'm guessing the wattage/color ranges/etc. have something to do with that?

I haven't been using any type of nutrient additives. I'm always been paranoid about putting stuff in the water, so I haven't really delved into that stuff I guess.



jones57742 said:


> what is your current lighting; and
> what is your current lighting period?


See my second post.



jones57742 said:


> I presume that the tank dimensions are 48"x18"x20"?


Correct. Some specs about the tank are in the links which are now in my sig.



jones57742 said:


> I very much enjoy the aesthetics of the black aggregate which is your current substrate


Yeah that's one thing I wouldn't like about having an improved substrate, I love my black and blue ;]

Hah I just noticed your latest post as I was making this one.

Anyway taking all of the suggestions of both of you into account it sounds like my first step would be starting a dry/liquid fertilizer regimen and/or using root tabs while maybe I work on designing CO2 injection 2.0. Even if injection isn't the ultimate solution, it sounds like it will at least help a little bit. Plus a homemade system is just fun to make 

Anyway I have no clue about root tabs, do you just like attach to the roots of individual plants or something? Also I'll do some research in the meantime, but any suggestions on specific root tabs/fertilizers?

One more thing, I've been wondering about for a while. I tend to reorganize my tank fairly often, just about every time I really get down and dirty and take out all of my rocks and siphon the crap out of my gravel. Sometimes I'll just work around the plants, but other times I end up moving them if they're too much in the way. Sometimes I'll end up damaging roots in the process too. I'd really like to try to use some sort of potting/bundling configuration so that I can move the plants more easily as units, but I'm always afraid something like this will limit the root growth, if they are too confined. Is something like this at all advisable? And if so, how would you suggest going about that?

Thanks again,
== Matt


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## Guest

mmseng said:


> I don't mind sticking to low-light plants, and I'll look into the suggestions, but JOOC, what would it take to get a higher wpg? More bulbs, or just higher wattage/brighter bulbs? I knew some bulbs can get really expensive, I'm guessing the wattage/color ranges/etc. have something to do with that?


For higher wattage, you'd probably need a new fixture. Most fixtures/ballasts will only fire a certain wattage.




mmseng said:


> Anyway I have no clue about root tabs, do you just like attach to the roots of individual plants or something? Also I'll do some research in the meantime, but any suggestions on specific root tabs/fertilizers?


You just shove them in the gravel under the plants (or around them....doesn't have to be directly below).




mmseng said:


> One more thing, I've been wondering about for a while. I tend to reorganize my tank fairly often, just about every time I really get down and dirty and take out all of my rocks and siphon the crap out of my gravel. Sometimes I'll just work around the plants, but other times I end up moving them if they're too much in the way. Sometimes I'll end up damaging roots in the process too. I'd really like to try to use some sort of potting/bundling configuration so that I can move the plants more easily as units, but I'm always afraid something like this will limit the root growth, if they are too confined. Is something like this at all advisable? And if so, how would you suggest going about that?


You don't have to be so aggressive with vacuuming. The stuff/waste will end up being nutrients and food for the plants, so I would just suck up what is on top of the gravel (the stuff that looks bad) and then just deep vac the areas that you don't have plants.

You could put them in small pots. Hobby stores sell small ceramic pots that would work.

But, if you want to do without the pots, just vac around the plants.


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## jones57742

mmseng said:


> it sounds like my first step would be starting a dry/liquid fertilizer regimen


Matt:

My harping on fertilization is based upon experience which currently includes several plants currently floating in my aquarium which are not typically styled as floating plants but which are healthy and growing as well as growing roots like crazy:
*Anacharis;* 
*Anubias barteri round leaf;* and
*Cabomba *


IMHO the keys to the kingdom:
in the understanding of growing plants for your aquarium is *Rex Grig's Site*, and
in the procurement of dry fertilizers is *Alan & Julia Kaufmann's Site*.


Dry fertilizers, IMHO, are the way to go and this assertion is based upon using liquid fertilizers but migrating to dry fertilizers.

Although using dry fertilizers may initially appear to be a real pain it is not and is much cheaper than utilizing liquid fertilizers.

Should you decide to go this route I can save you some grief by walking through my experience.

TR


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