# Emergency!!!!!!!!!



## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

HELP!!!! I have had this problem for a while, but it hasnt gone away. I have a 20g tank with 100+ baby convict's and a few baby platies. The convict's eye's will start to turn white, kinda like what a open wound look's like when you pour poroxide on it. The it get's bigger, and cover's the side of his/her face. Then they start to hang on the side of the tnak, and they die hours later. I am treating with melafix, tommorow is the 3rd dose, but notihng has happend yet. Is the melafix strong enoguh? Also, for the chance that it might be a parasite, i added CopperSafe, and still no reaction. What is wrong?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The coppersafe is not helping. Bacteria LOVE copper, and adding copper to a tank with infection is only making things worse.
Melafix is wimpy. It's good for preventing problems, but not so good at stopping them. 

Clean up the tank. Vacuum the gravel, too. Change about half the water with water you already had prepared a few days in advance. Put new media in your filter.

Continue the melafix, and add Pimafix as well to fight fungus.

Next week, repeat, But don't change the filter media this time.
Next week, repeat.

You have 100+ convicts in a 20 gallon tank. They're going to make a big mess and grow quickly. You must work to stay on top of things or they'll never make it.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2008)

Since you have so many fish in that tank (even though they are small), you may want to do 2 water changes weekly of 40%. Take TOS's advice and do the gravel vac and water change and filter media change this week just once, but next week try doing 2 water changes. I'd probably just vac the gravel once, but twice won't hurt. Being fry, I'm sure you are feeding them alot to make them grow and you may not be changing enough water now.

Water changes are the best way to prevent things from going wrong IMO. Sometimes you just can't prevent disease, but alot of times the bacteria affect stressed out fish which usually comes from poor water quality. 

Try doing more water changes and see if that helps. If they don't make any progress, you might try a full spectrum antibiotic combo like Maracyn and Maracyn 2 for a week.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I do 3 water changes a week of about 30% to keep their growth hormone out of the water, and to keep it vlean. I did a test with my API Freshwater Master Test Kit and here are the result's:
Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Ph: 8.2
Kh: to high for the test to read it
Gh:same as above

Unfortnatly, my test kit dosent cover nitrat's, but i do add aquarium salt, which is known to reduce the toxcidity of nitrate's. I ma sure they are low, as last week i went to petsmart nad they used a teswt strip( i know,not reliable) and it said my nitrate's were from 1-20. That was before i started doing water changes.I have not done any water change's since monday, as that is when i started medicating. I do not let water sit out, i use TopFin Water Dechlorinator. Also, vhlorine is to harmful as you might think. There is bacteria in city water, and city water is dechlorinated, so compared to the 4% die of on a filter, what is the difference, especially when you are adding bacteria to the tank? I was told by my lfs( superpets) that i should run both copper+Melafix, as i brought one of the babies to them, and they said they werent sure. Also, they said that it look's like a parasite, but dosent act like one.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Uhm... 
Alrighty then. I guess you already know it all, so good luck with that.

wow.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

Any idea's? How do i already know it all? There is alway's something new to learn, especially when you are only 14!!!!!!!!!!!


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## shade2dope (Jan 21, 2007)

I would listen to old salt and kristen If i was you they know there stuff.I think oldsalt was saying that cause you were in your second post going against what he was saying.Give it some time in there post they said it would take some weeks not 2 days.Is there anything new or do you not like what they have written as to me its seems like very good advice and everything you need to know is there.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

Well, it is true about the Chlorine. You do need to let it sit. Letting it sit will only remove the chlorine, not the chloimine. Also, i use dechlorinator, which rid's me of both. Plus i have plant's, and i was told chlorine is bad for them. I do belong to another forum, called fishforums.net, and they have around 40 user's active all the time, they have given me different advice, and my fav lfs gave me the same advice as fishforums.net did. They said that they really hav eno idea, but to try to pull out the big gun's and shoot for maracyrn and maracryn 2, which Kristin also said. I have never heard that bacteria "love's" copper either. I have done personal research on the internet and found no such conclusion's. PLus, i am 14, broke( except for my 16 dollars), and what is the point of a water change, espcially when i have been doing 3 30% water changes a week? The mesicine would have no effect. I also just replaced the filter in my 20g. With a aquaclear. I am still running th eold one, so i can still have the tnak cycled. so there is no point in changeing the pad. I am also having issues with my 30g tank. Here is a link about it, as i dont feel like re-typing ever post: http://www.fishforums.net/content/Tropical-Fish-Emergencies/224771/Death-And-Destruction/


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## Cichlidsrule (Nov 8, 2006)

Just a bit of advice--
Always listen to Old Salt  He's nearly always right.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I did buy some PimaFix, and i am treating it. I will change 40% next week, and i will try to dose again, as im also treating another tank with Body Rot. I did buy a AquaClear ammonia Clear Pad, as i was told that i might need to euthenise the babies, clean tank, bleach it, gravel, and filter. I was preparing, so when i add live fish to cycle the tank, i would have something to obsorb the ammonia.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

What???

Oh, for the love of -

Look, here's the thing, you are WAY off on a bunch of things, and so too, apparently, are those on the other site and at your lfs. I'm probably wasting my time, but I'll try to enlighten you a bit.

1- Bad-guy bacteria do indeed thrive in the presence of copper. if your fish have an infection, copper WILL only make it worse. This is well known and long established, and I'm sorry if your own googling didn't make that clear to you. Everyone in the business of treating fish professionally knows that sometimes you are forced to make a choice about which thing to treat first because of this, and many hobbyists know it as well. Now you do, too, theoretically.

2- Salt neutralizes nitrIte, not nitrAte.

3- The reason you let the water sit out a bit before making a LARGE water change is not due to the chlorine, but to the dissolved gases ratios. Dechlorinator is fine and dandy, but it won't stop suffocation and wild pH swings.

4- City water is not dechorinated, it's chlorinated. It does have some bacteria in it, but not much. 
_"...vhlorine is to harmful as you might think."_ Okay, whatever.

5- You shouldn't be adding more bacteria to the water right now, as it would only be wasted on one hand while on the other it will use up a lot more oxygen than you can spare. If you run low on oxygen, the bad-guy bacteria, which don't need so much and actually do better when O2 levels are down, will just get that much more of a toehold.

6- Your lfs should know the difference between parasites and infections, but since it's a superpet, I won't be surprised if they don't. Telling you to mix two incompatible treatments is simple guesswork on their part, which they can't really be blamed for considering everything.

7- The point of a water change is that cleanliness is bad for badguy bacteria, and good for fish health. There are a vast array of aquarium problems which can be fixed by a series of water changes alone, and many more which they will help considerably.

8- The point of changing your filter media is that it is contaminated with pathogens which need to be removed physically as much as possible. Rinse it in hot water and then cold water a few times since it's new and not cycled, and you can re-use it.

Change some water, get things good and clean, and then add the treatment meds. Let them work according to the directions, then clean everything up again. It's a pain, sure, but sometimes it's just what you need to do.

There's no need to get rid of the fish and bleach everything. THAT is what would be pointless. 
If you still think that some sort of eye-specific parasites are infesting your fish and the antibiotics don't work, then try a med called "Clout." It's good for things like that which are normally not affected by copper.

Finally, you are trying to raise 100+ convicts in a 20 gallon tank. You can pretty much forget about letting you filter do the work, cycled or not. If you want to raise a bunch of fry, then you're gonna have to make a bunch of regular and sizeable water changes. There are a lot of things building up in the water that the filter just can't handle, including a nasty hormone released by growing fish to retard growth, and the only way to be rid of them are waterchanges. Over the coming years you'll find that waterchanges are your best friend in many situations, and this is another reason to keep some water sitting out, ready to go in an emergency or any other time you want it.

You can believe me or not on all this, it's up to you. I've been at this since 1972, in case that helps you decide.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I have been at this since 1998. I started at 5 with a few gold fish. If i do a water change, and them re-treat, i will not have enough medicine to treat the entire 7 day's for both tank's. My AquaClear also has those Bio-Ball's for the Nitrifing bacteria to grow. I was told about the bleaching becasue a Good Old Homeowned petstore had the exact same problem, and they tried to treat it and nothing worked, so then they had to take down and bleach everything. 
1. I have never heard that bad bacteria are influenced at all by Coppper. 
2. I was always told that NitrAte was less toxic with the presence of Aquarium Salt.
3. I was told that my bubbler would take out some of the disolved gasses when the bubble's pop in the air. 
4. I meant Chlorinated, sorry! But there is a person on fishforums.net that is all into science and stuff, and he was the proof to back up that chlorine isnt as harmful as most people think.
5. I have a bubbler bar in my tank. And there is a gap between my filter and the water, so there is some more oxygen added to the water.
6. There is a Difference between Superpet(z) and SuperPet(s). Superpet(s) is a homeowned local store here, that has the best information, and the my friend;s ther eare the manager for night, the manager of day, the fish room manager, the fish room employ's, and the reptile manager( he has dabbled into fish), and they all said that same thing, we have never seen anything like this, it look's like a parasite, but act's like a fungu's, becasue it is only attacking the eye's. 
8. Would rinsing it, destory most of the bacteria?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

8- yes, which is the whole point.
Once again, I think you're missing something I'm trying to tell you here->> FORGET about your nitrifying bacteria. They are not going to be able to keep up with 100+ convicts in a 20 gallon tank, no matter HOW cycled your filter is. Waterchanges are what you're going to need for the coming months.

There ARE some eye-specific parasites out there, mostly flukes. They are pretty easy to tell apart from bacteria or fungus I would think, but maybe not. Clout is good for most eye flukes, which is why I recommended it. Copper isn't much help at all for them.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I just spent my last bit of money on the pimafix. I think that im going to run the treatment, and then do a water change. I have been testing the water _*daily*_ and nothing has happend to the water. I am also running 2 filters. Which each are capable of filtering 20g. So that is 40gallons of water that it can filter. In a 20g tank. Also, wouldnt my fish have died in the last month if the filter couldnt keep up with the bacteria right? I am confussed!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Your 100 fry are FRY, at least for now. As they grow, assuming they do, then they will have a MUCH bigger impact on your system. Honestly, do you think you could cram 100 adults into a tank and have the filter keep up with them? Of course not. As your fish grow, they will very quickly overwhelm your system. Each fish growing only a quarter inch makes 25 inches of new fish-flesh in your tank. Think about it that way for a moment and you should start to see the problem.


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

we don't care how long you have been keeping fish, having fish at 5 means nothing other then decorations your parents took care of.

listen to theoldsalt he is more experienced then most of us here by years upon years.


I told you this awhile ago when you came into chat and warned you bad things like this would happen to your tanks due to overstocking.

also with convicts your fry numbers are probably already dropping cause there eating each other.
you mentioned growing them out to sell but in a 20g the growth isn't going to be fast with those conditions


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

They are at about 1/2 inch. Since there are so many, there is ro real bullying. I did my best to count them and i reached 65 before i got lost. They are very active, just the eye problem. I do understnad what you are saying old salt. I just didnt get it at first. My lfs said that they will take them around the beggining of feburary. I am going to cull around 20 today, maybe 30. Any sick ones, or small ones, or odd behaving ones are going. I just dont like killing unless i have too. I had church today and a lady said that it might be eye flukes? Is there such a thing? I've never heard of them personally. The only reason i said that i have been in fishkeeping for a while, and i am experinced with most stuff, but some of the thing's old salt is saying just dosent make sense, or i just plain dont want to belive it. 
Krib


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

if you hadn't understood you could have just said "I don't understand could you explain it more simply" and people would have helped and simplified.

if you don't want to believe what a experienced fish keeper has to say, then why do you need our help being how you know what your doing it seems.

and if your fry are at half an inch your out of your mind.
but since you know what your doing thats okay cause they won't eat eacho ther other.
even though there known to be one of the most aggresive cichlids that isn't african.

everytime TOS tried to help you and explain stuff nicely and calmly even though everytime you didn't listen to his advice and he had already mentioned flukes in post #13.
so congrats on completely ignoring that


if your going to ask for advice again listen and read what people try to do he was trying to save your fish and you didn't read.

I have bred convicts and I can tell you your fry are eating each other no matter what you try to say, its a simple fact that they are.
there hyper aggressive, and very active fish that shouldn't be housed in small tanks or with non aggressive fish.

your platy fry are dead they will have been the first to be eaten :chair:


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

oh wow I hadn't even seen that it was a hexagon tank 0_o...
at least a 20g long there is some length hexagons are the most pointless tank out there.

by the time feb comes around my guess is the fry will be stunted and numbers will be very few.

you need to get a 55g fast or cull all of them pretty well


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I still have the 4 baby platies. I am going to move them to my 30g with my other fish as they are the sma esize as the convict's. The only time i have seen the convict's agressive is when there are 3 alone. I wasnt sure if they were eye flukes or not, and i didnt see that he said fluke's. I thought he said ich. Also, i need alot of people's adivce if they all say the same thing then im happy and sure that is what it is. Since 2 people say it, and no one else has any idea, im going with fluke's. Would pimafix be a good med for the fluke's? And if Flukes are a Parasite, wouldnt the CopperSafe or Quick Cure have done something( note, i did a huge water change before adding th ecopper, as they are close to the same thing, and it would kill my fish). Also, you said that old salt was trying to say stuff nice and calmly. Have i not been calm? Or have you been reading my post's wrong? This is my situation. Im am young, with no money. Next since im young, i take every one's advice seriously. Then when you belong to 2 different forum's, and then know people who have kept fish for a while and everyone is saying differnet thing's. What would you do? That is the way i feel right now, so tha tis why im confused. And, no need to be harsh. Also, i didnt pick out the tnak. I had the 30g to start off with. THen i was given the 20g flat hex from my uncle. I like the tank, even though it is impossible to clean with it's shape( i manage anyway). Plus, i can tsend it back saying, i dont like the shape, you keep it! Now can i? Plus, Hexagon's are particualry good for angel's, espcially Veiled tail's!


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

hexagons have extremely low oxygen content so thats actually bad for angels.
tall tanks with lots of swimming space is good not tall narrow suffocating tanks like a hex.

if you had just listened to theoldsalt you would have been fine and learned.
several people said listen to TOS cause we know that he knows his stuff.

just cause your young doesn't give you an excuse. we have several members your age that give "and" take advice maturely without a problem.

you just need to listen to the people that do know what there talking about.

on this forum TOS is one of the most trusted members for knowledge on stuff so take his advice.

and like post #13 states copper doesn't really help so that anwsers your question.

no you havn't been calm, you have been all knowing and shooting down what he told you like you hadn't even taken the time of day to read his posts..
proven by his response post #5

and yes I am being mean but only cause you havn't been listening from the start when several of us warned you in chat awhile back that your tank was going to have problems.

and I kept convicts for 2 years you have barely started it seems, there hyper agressive there is no getting around that, its in there genetics, they will beat fish dead twice there size if they need to.


PLEASE READ THIS
now it would help if you googled eye flukes and looked for a possible cure, then come back here post what the options you can find about treatement and hopefully someone can tell you which will be most effective and save your fish


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I have never heard about the whole, Hex has low oxygen content thing. I will defo have to google it. I said i was young, as since im young, i take everything into aspect,and i am almost garuenteed to mess up since i dont have alot od fish disease experience. I do know what im talking about, just not with diseases. If CopperSafe dosent help, then why did it rid my molly of ich, an dmy Angelfish of Anchor Worm? I have too been calm. Would you please give me a example when i wasnt calm? I havent been all knowing, i have just heard very controdictive stuff before i joined here, so i have taken everything into aspect. As far as im concernd there is never a good reason for being mean. How was i to prevent the bad thing's that were going to happen? No one ever said, do this and you ont have any problem's. 

Here is what i got off google: The eye fluke has a complex life cycle with a water snail (Lymnaea) acting as one of the intermediate hosts. Larval parasites - cercariae - are released from the snails and actively seek out fish which act as the second intermediate host and it is this invasion of cercariae which can cause such extensive damage in the fish. The snails can release millions of cercariae over a very short period of time resulting in an overwhelming invasion of the fish. The cercariae mostly penetrate through the flank of the fish, often along the lateral line and this can be seen grossly as extensive haemorrhagic lesions and, if you run your finger over the flank of the fish you can feel a rough, sandpaper-like, effect where the parasites enter the skin. 

Quite frequently a farmer will see fish affected with an acute haemorrhagic syndrome and assume it is a serious bacterial infection and some outbreaks have certainly been mistaken for bacterial disease in the past. On it's migration through the tissues of the fish to it's final destination in the eye, the parasites cause severe damage and this results in the affected fish swimming abnormally (often side swimming), becoming dark, lethargic, off their food and often rapidly developing serious spinal deformities. There is a rapid escalation of fish losses due to this extensive tissue damage. The parasites move quickly through the fish to the eye and the microscopic examination of fresh eye squashes will show high levels of the fluke - in fact, if you still have good eyesight yourself, the flukes are visible to the naked eye when you squash a fish eye onto a microscope slide. Surviving fish are often in a very poor state, susceptible to secondary fungal and bacterial disease and frequently totally blind. 

Now, this started happening after i add a new plant with alot of snail's on it( the plant was to add oxygen). My lfs did think this was bacterial, as i stated. The affected fish have become very dark, something i forgot to mention. I also noticed that before they die, the are swimming sideway's against the glass. This does sound like Eye Fluke's. I havent found a good site ye tthat gives a treatment! Any Help?

EDIT: The only website i can find that tell's you what to treat it with said to treat it with : Praziquantel or De-Los. Niether are availble here.


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

as TOS mentioned copper is very bad stuff to add with bacterial problems.
it sounds more like your having a couple problems and not sure flukes.
and its cause of overstocking your tank.

and if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have 100+ 1/2inch convicts in a 20g.

now I am done arguing its a waste of my time I will try and check some books and see if I can find any helpful info alright.

but right now I suggest something like 20% water change a day to try and keep your fish alive
water changes are always good


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

What about the med? I do know what im doing, but as i said, i was going many water change's so nothing bad happend. Im not surprised as to the cause of this. As i have a few extra( like 20) con's in my 30g( by sccident) and they havent had problem's. I am trying to catch them, but it is near impossible, an dthey havnet had any confrontation's with the angle or livebearer's, yet.. So, would i need another med? Im tired of medicating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That owuld be nice if you checked some book's.


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

in the stickies in this section were many helpful sites..

Flukes

Symptoms: The fish scrapes itself against objects, rapid gill movement, mucus covering the gills or body, the gills or fins may be eaten away, the skin may become reddened.

There are many species of flukes, which are flatworms about 1 mm long, and several symptoms that are visible. They infest gills and skin much like ich, but the difference can be seen with a hand lens. You should be able to see movement and possibly eye spots, which is not found in ich. Gill flukes will eventually destroy the gills thus killing the fish. Symptoms of a heavy infestations are pale fish with drooping fins, rapid respiration, glancing off aquarium decor, and /or hollow bellies.
Treatment can best be done with a 10 to 30 minute bath in 10 mg per liter of potassium permanganate. Or treat the whole tank with 2 mg per liter, but this method is messy and dyes the water



does that sound like what you got?


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

Thank's!!!!!!!!! I read one of my medicine bottles called Quick Cure. It said that it take's care of MILD FLUKE OUTBREAK'S. Would my case be considerd mild? I culled about 50+babies. I have around 50 left. I only keep the biggest, healiest looking one's. It appear's that i have some up in a inch in length. They became free-swimming on Thank'sgiving, so im guessing they are growing pretty fast? I hef them Baby Brine Shrimp and Beefheart when they were younger. I took ever ornament out of the tank, so it is easier to clean.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The very reason there are so many different kids of fish medicines is that it takes a bunch of different kinds to get rid of a bunch of different kinds of diseases.
QuickCure has formalin in it. That will help against ick and flukes. It won't help a whole lot, but it will help some.
If you can't get some Clout, then look for Fluke-tabs. They're cheap and usually easy enough to get.
Even better, go to Walmart and look for Jungle's "Parasite Clear" fizz-tabs. Those are good for lots of things, and they even have praziquantel in them. In fact, it always pays to keep some of these around since they're made for times like this when you need something that does a lot against a lot because you don't know what your problem is for sure. They're cheap, too.
Yes, that's the best recommendation I can give you at this point, I think.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I will see what i cna do. I am treating with the Quick Cure for now. And will do a water change in 2 day's. I saw only 1 sick convict's, which i netted and threw away. All other one's look vibrant and healthy. I am hoping th eones i didnt cull will make it, they do look like they will though!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

how are you culling the fish?


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I put them in a bucket, and i added some clove oil. I was going to dump them in the snow, but i heard that clove oil is better. They died in aorund 10 second's at the most.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

They seem fine, i have only seen 1 sick one, but it might have been one that i missed in the begining. I culled it today. Also, im doing a water change tommorow.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I have lost about 5 more babies. I have noticed that their eyes are big and black with a white middle. A litte different than last time? What could this be?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

That's just abrasion if a few of them have that, and a widespread infection if they all have it.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

Thanks for the reply! Should i Bleach and everything like i advised, or cull them all and start over with something appropiate for the tank size?


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

I did a 85% water change, and i culled all the babies that were left. I am letting the tank sit for a week, and i am treating with a double dose of pimafix. After treatment, i will do a 75% wtaer change, and add a danio, and see if the disease is gone.


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## Jessi and Greg (Feb 20, 2008)

you guys are all pretty harsh in here!


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## Jessi and Greg (Feb 20, 2008)

does anyone know what could cause white abbssess on my twig catfish??


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Start a new thread, this ones a month old. Do you mean harsh to the poster or harsh in culling the fry. It is harsh, but better than watching them die slowly from disease or poor water quality.


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## Jessi and Greg (Feb 20, 2008)

I odn't know how to start a new thread. I just started and I'm just trying to figure out what's wrong with my fish!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Click on a category, then click the 'new topic' button on the left above the list of posts. You should post a list of tank size, occupants, water parameters (pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) since that is the first thing you will asked. No, we're not mean, most sick fish are because of water quality issues. And fish with bad water don't recover even if medicated properly.
Pictures are helpful. Post to 3rd party site like Picassa or Photobucket and link with the little landscape picture icon.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

Well i culled them and have a baby angel in there and some baby swords and guppies and i havent had any problems for the lasdt month. I didnt get to bleach the tank, so i just started off with some babies guppies and worked my way up to a baby angelfish. Nothing has gotten sick, so im guessing it was genetics that got the other fish soo sick. Thanks for the help!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If your tank was empty and dry for awhile, that might have killed the disease. Bleach is a kind of nuclear solution, but I've used it. You don't want to go through that again.


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## Kribensis12 (Jan 1, 2008)

The tank wasnt dry. It was wet adn full of water. I am confident that it wont come back as it hasnt yet! ** fingers crossed**


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