# Cheap Saltwater?



## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

So I was looking at doing a saltwater tank. The fish look way cooler than freshwater in my opinion. I wanted to do a nano reef, but looking at the prices I was like, "ZOMGWTFBBQ?" Is there any way to do a cheaper saltwater tank? I know that a FO tank will be cheaper than a nano reef or a FOWLR tank. Will I need as much equipment and stuff for a FO or a FOWLR tank as I would with a reef?

A fish auction is coming up this Saturday in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area. I may be able to get some supplies pretty cheap.

Also, is there a saltwater equivalent to Seachem Stability?


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## Dragonbeards (Dec 14, 2008)

I'm looking for a cheap venture into the SW portion of this hobby as well. I'm actually pretty close to getting a tank set-up as well. 

What I'm getting, though not actually a fish, I think just as cool, a mantis shrimp. They are very hardy, almost impossible to kill, so I think it a great way to get my toes wet in SW. Here's what I'm doing.

I already have the tank itself, a 15 gallon tall. I need to buy a hood and a sponge filter for it, as well as live sand and live rock and that's it. Oh, and saltwater mix of course. I have been reading all over about the mantis shrimp and have read that some people don't even have a filter, just do regular water changes.

Though you may be wanting to start out with fish, maybe give mantis shrimp a try? It's eons cheaper, and you would be able to fine-tune your skills before moving into the more delicate $200 fish. Just my two cents.

Dragonbeards


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

If your going to go cheap I'd suggest not going at all. The cheaper you are the more problems your going to have and then you'll just end up spending more money trying to fix the problems.
If your doing a FOLWER you can have basic lights which saves money, you still need all the filtration and live rock/sand so your not really saving all that much


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I agree with Tallonebball. You actually get what you pay for on the saltwater side of things, and cutting corners will wind up costing you much more than you thought you were going to save.

However, with fish-only you can set it up for about the same cost as a freshwater tank, plus the salt of course. Most ordinary freshwater equipment works fine for fish-only, but you still only just barely get by. Adding a good skimmer will help immensely. ( and I do mean a GOOD one, as in not cheap ) The skimmer will be your priciest add-on, but it will be worth every dime.

Stability works in saltwater, too. Maybe not as well as it does in fresh, but still a lot better than nothing.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Damsels go for around $10. Treat them like cichlids keep a pair in huge tank. A big saltwater tank with a few fish is going to be cheaper than a nano with excellent light and corals.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

You think a protein skimmer helps that much? I have read that protein skimmers are not absolutely necessarily. But you make it sound like it it the single most important part. I would get a protein skimmer regardless of the cost if you think it's important. 

Also if I did a FOWLR tank, would I need live sand? I read that eventually regular sand would become live sand if there was live rock in the tank. What kind of fish work well for a small FO or FOWLR tank. I have a few in mind, but want to know what you guys think.

I have also been considering doing a brackish water tank instead of a full saltwater. It seems to be much cheaper and easier to handle. The only problem I see with that, is they either need a very large aquarium or you get a very limited selection of fish.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

emc7 said:


> Damsels go for around $10. Treat them like cichlids keep a pair in huge tank. A big saltwater tank with a few fish is going to be cheaper than a nano with excellent light and corals.


Damsels = Need large tank
Large tank = Expensive

Plus, the only cichlids I have any experience with are freshwater angelfish.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

I wouldn't do Damsels.
You have a weird question really because you want to do a cheap tank so you can't do large but most saltwater fish need a larger tank. You should do some research yourself and come up with some fish you like.
Smaller Fish (example):
Clownfish (percula) 
Most Gobies (firefish)
Most Blennies (bi-color)
Cardinalfish (Pajama)
Dwarf Angelfish (Coral Beauty)
Chromis (Green)
Dragonnets (Mandarin)
And even with these fish there will be confrontaions between some and some, such as the Mandarin Goby, need a mature tank with living food sources in it.
You need a protein skimmer to keep your tank running smoothly, no they arent necessary, but they will save you A LOT of trouble.
You don't need live sand but it will help start your tank up faster as will live rock.
Brackish would be a lot easier but you would need like a 40 or larger and your options are limited.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I was considering doing a percula in a 20 gallon tank. 

Also there are a few brackish fish that will do well in a small tank. Mollies and gobies will do well in a small tank.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Yeah, I know mollies do well in brackish but if you want to do mollies then set up a freshwater tank, you don't need to argue for the sake of arguing I was just answering your question, not asking you a question
gobies are just about the only other things besides small brackish puffers that can go in a small brackish tank so as I said, your options are limited
If your considering just doing one percula clownfish in a 20 gallon tank then why even do it? It seems like you just want to save money to have the bare minimum of what you can call a saltwater tank. 
Thats just my opinion though, i figure if your going to do it why not wait and save enough money to do it even better


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

I highly agree with what said....
A saltwater tank, even FO/FOWLR, is going to be "expensive"... and if your going to go that route, it should personally be worth it for you. Single clownfish or the like, might be worth the money and hassle for you, or it might not be. There are a large amount of fish that would do well in 30 gallon/55 gallons... smaller tanks, but the price will pretty much be the same no matter what size you go with. You can absolutely skip a skimmer, but it tends to help in the long run. In SW, there's a large variety of filtration... but a skimmer will handle the stuff the others can't get to. Personally, I ran it on my "fowlr" maybe once a month for a few days... but I had it running on my seahorse tank 24/7. Some swear by it, others find no need for it.

There are alot of brackish fish that don't need massive tanks... but some are harder to find, and may not be readily available in your area unless you special order. There's a few BW puffers that are fine in 30-55 gallons... a few purely freshwater also. Halfbeaks (depending on the type) are easier, bumblebee gobies, etc. Many different BW fish have different needs, more so in feeding, then you'd find with fw.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

might i suggest that you get a really good paying job or have rich parents...this ain't like guppies...
the most constant things on this planet are the oceans.....therefore the creatures that live in the oceans have not developed the ability to adapt to rapid changes....PH....SG...etc...
you will need all quality equipment...filtration...heat....light.....protein skimmers are pretty worthless for freshwater but can be pretty important in a salt tank.
marine animals come from an environment where there are vast expanses of ocean for them to swim in..so they need bigger tanks...
if you are gonna cheap out ; just don't bother at all...
a marine biologist once told me.."only idiots and experts do small marine tanks...if it ain't 40 gallons + ; it ain't big enough.."

so ; all of this just to say...................what them guys said......

flam you goof...where you been???????


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Talloneball: First of all, I am not looking for the bare minimum to call my tank a saltwater tank. Many people do small FO or FOWLR tanks. I was just asking what was involved and how much I would save over doing a nano reef. Secondly, I was not arguing for the sake of arguing, or trying to answer a question you may have had. You told me I was wrong for considering a small brackish tank, and I was correcting you. You don't need to be so hot headed when someone contradicts you.

Flamingo and lohachata: Thanks for all the advise about it. I kind of wonder what you guys think I mean about cheep. I certainly don't mean I want to spend $30 on a few extra things that a salt tank would need. I would gladly spend a couple hundred dollars on a small tank. I've just seen prices in the $1000+ range where they say you need T5 lighting, the best protein skimmer, canister filters, and large tanks. I was hoping that with a smaller tank, there might be cheaper or unneeded parts. For instance, from what I read, T5 lighting is only really needed to grow corals and such. That fluorescent lighting will work for some live rock (or do I have those mixed around?). I am not worried about the hassle of taking care of fish. If I was worried about that, I wouldn't even consider a saltwater tank. Also, is a smaller tank really that much more difficult to take care of than a larger one? My freshwater 10 and 20 gallons are no more difficult to take care of than my 55 gallon tank.
On a different note, I know that a brackish have different needs depending on where the fish would naturally reside in the river/ocean area. If I went with a brackish setup, I would do a Brackish River setup compared to an Estuary or Mangrove setup. The Brackish River setup could potentially be as small as a 5.5 tank depending on the fish I put in it, though I would never get a tank that small. I could put in quite a few fish if I did this setup. Some examples are the molly, goby, small puffers, glassfish, chromides and rainbows. The more I do research, the more I am considering these fish and setup.


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## justintrask (Jun 29, 2008)

With saltwater, there are a lot of AIO systems that are actually really good. For a beginner reef tank, look into a 29G BioCube. They typically run around $300, and have a protein skimmer you can buy for another $50. Definately one of the best AIO tanks for beginners.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Haha I wasn't being hot head BML so calm yourself


> Brackish would be a lot easier but you would need like a 40 or larger and your options are limited.


How does that sound like a question to you? lol
And please point out where I said you were wrong for wanting a small brackish tank, I believe all I said was your options would be limited, so Methinks your the one getting a little worked up over nothing.
So my bad if i came off as hot headed but I really just don't want you to make a mistake and waste your money so I am being very forward.
The only other thing you have to consider is that some of those brackish fish require different salinities, the chromides are normally rather high whereas the rainbows are less. PetLovingFreak has a couple nice brackish tanks set up pretty successfully so if you can get a hold of him he could probably help you the most with that.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The thing to remember about a small salt tank is that things change very quickly in a small tank, and in saltwater, change is bad.

Even simple things like maintaining the salinity are a big hassle in a small tank, where the evaporation can cause a significant change in only a couple of days.

A smaller fish-only tank is certainly doable, and almost easy, even, but you will HAVE to keep a close watch on it daily. After that you'll have it made.

Skimmers, by the way, are what finally made saltwater tanks feasible after a century of failure. "Preventing change" is pretty much the whole goal of maintaining a saltwater tank, and one look ( and whiff ) of the stuff the skimmer removes that the other filters can't touch should be enough to convince you of their extreme usefulness.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

For a brackish water tank, I was thinking about doing maybe like 3 mollies and 3 bumblebee gobies in a 10 to 20 gallon tank depending on what I can find. Maybe glassfish instead of mollies. 

The benefit to a brackish water tank, is the fish in the wild have their water always changing so they are very strong when it comes to different salinities and other things. Some people even suggest changing the salinity slightly frequently. Apparently this is to replicate what would happen near the ocean.

I have heard mixed opinions on using a protein skimmer with a brackish water tank. Some people say it is absolutely needed, and others say that it is absolutely not needed and could actually take out some of the beneficial things a brackish tank needs. What is your thought on this?

Thanks for the help on this, and sorry about that talloneball. I thought you were getting mad at me about it.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Ive never heard of anyone using a protein skimmer on a brackish tank but I don't see why I wouldn't help, but it probably isn't at all necessary
No offense taken Bml


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Appearently people think they are needed since brackish is half saltwater and half freshwater.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, a skimmer is pretty much always a good thing in a tank where it works... but in a brackish tank it won't work as well as it would in a fully salty tank. I would probably not bother with one in a brackish tank, even though it would help a little bit. It really comes down to how salty you run it.

I will say this, though: bumblebee gobies are very difficult to keep with most other fish, simply because they can't get enough food.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Are they just slow, or are they not aggressive enough. I have food that would work OK for slow fish, and ones that are not aggressive enough would just require you feed the whole top of the tank rather than one spot.


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

lol loha, i've been around. Been busy, finishing up my classes, I still check FF once in a while 

And by the cheap thing, Sorry if I or anyone thinks you mean "a few dollars here and there sparingly." The term is just used so widely, and often it comes about that way. SW definitely can be done on a budget... a lot of the equipment or processes people incorporate in their tanks, aren't always needed, and there's many alternatives for buying or making equipment. My advice is to buy the best equipment you can get for the price right away. Headed towards the cheap route when I started, and ended up replacing or upgrading everything down the road. Going cheap in the beginning only makes the cost higher.

Flourescent lighting will work for just live rock and fish... certain strains of macroalgae and very hardy soft corals, gorgonians, etc. will sometimes also thrive under normal lighting. Some people use higher lighting to cut down outbreaks of brownalgae, but it shouldn't be a problem if you maintain good water conditions.
Smaller tanks can be harder to maintain in the longer run, with the common saying "levels and problems can change far quicker in smaller systems." But also for your first SW system, a larger tank would not only be easier, but worth it. Everyone always upgrades a few months later 

A mangrove system for brackish would work, if you want live, a more complicated system would be needed... larger tank, more nutrients... higher lighting. Or you can get that look with fake deco, roots, or hardier plants like ferns, vallisneria, and certain grasses. Bumblebee gobies tend to either be very picky and hard with initial feeding, overcompeted with larger faster fish, or more aggressive. I've had certain pairs die off from not eating, certain groups were dominated, and a few more would rule the tank with fish 5 times their size. It depends on the certain set-up and individual fish you get.
Even with them though, I would go 10 gallon minimum...


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