# Just added fish...



## Bear

Ok well I went to the LFS today and got some fish. My dad funded the trip so that will explain some stuff. anyways we got some gravel, a hiding rock a long air stone and some fake plants. Along with 2 cichlids and my dad wanted me to put in these two which will be pictured afterwords. I am not sure what the other 2 are, but dad was paying so there was no arguing with it. When i put them in everything was cool, they were swimming around and what not. Now the 2 cichlids and what i believe to be a ram are kinda hiding behind a plant while the long fish has come out from hiding and is now exploring. They were added maybe an hour ago so...

Oh and the fish do come out from hiding, but then that is for food.

















(in the bottom pic the one on the left) These are the fish my dad chose.

















these are the fish I chose


----------



## Guest

So you chose to fish cycle the tank instead of using bio spera or fishless cycling huh? I have to say thats why they are not acting right. I'd get a test kit so monitor water stats daily and when you get ammonia and nitrite's do vacuum cleanings. But fish cycling will shorten the life of the fish and possibly kill them. I would have gotten zebra danios instead if you were going to fish cycle instead of wasting your money on those cichlids when they are either going to die soon or in few months or if they are super lucky maybe a year or two.


----------



## Bear

well the bigger long fish just tried to eat my little one, and now the others are nice and happy cuz i took them out...geez ok well im back to the store maybe ill get some bio spira while im there


----------



## Guest

See if you can exchange those fish you got for zebra danios instead if you can't get bio spera.


----------



## Puffer Pita

The fish in the first picture is a pipefish. The bigger one in the second picture looks like some type of apistogramma. Not sure about the others.


----------



## goodie

Black and yellow horizontal striped fish is a Melanochromis auratus http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=750 . When the males mature they reverse their colors to mostly black, they are very aggresive. Not for sure what the other yellowish one with vertical bars is. I'm certain its another type of Mbuna cichlid from Lake Malawi in Africa. The other cichlid is a type of South American apistogramma, maybe a Bolivian Ram http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=420 . To be blunt African and South American Cichlids do not go together. Water parameters for SA Cichlids-soft & acidic; African (rift lakes) -hard & alkaline. Along with agression levels that do not match each other.

I can't say anything about the Pipe/Needlefish. Never read up on them. Someone else can fill you in on them.

If you haven't checked up on cycling a tank this will help
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/7125-nitrogen-cycle-basics.html


----------



## joe kool

the yellow with the vertical bars is commonly called a bumble bee cichlid and are also pretty aggressive when they get bigger. I understand when parents are buying the fish you can't do a whole lot BUT if you read up on the types of fish that can got together as far as water parameters and conditions then you and your parents will keep happier fish and make less trips to the pet store becouse "they keep dieing for some reason"


----------



## Bear

ok well, i took the needlenose back after it had my little golden mbuna in his mouth. I went back and got another golden mbuna (which may not have been a good idea if they are both male) and a Red Top Kimpuma. So now I have 2 golden mbunas, 1 Red Top Kimpuma, 1 unidentified cichlid, and what appears to be a bolivian ram.

Ever since I took out the needlenose then everyone in the tank everyone has been happy, swimming around and such. But this is the beginning and I am excited to see what happens next.


----------



## Guest

The fish in the second picture, on the left is a Bolivian ram. Not a good fish to mix with Africans. If you plan to keep the Africans, I'd take the Bolivian ram back. They are pretty peaceful, unlike the Africans and will eventually get killed when the fish all mature. Do it a favor and return it before something happens.

I see you didn't research before you bought....not smart at all.

Good luck!


----------



## Bear

If you read my post you would have seen that I did my research and the Bolivian ram was not my choice. It was my fathers, and he was funding this so there was no arguing with the couple he wanted to throw in there, it just turns out that they both did not mix with the fish i had researched and planned for. The needlenose was returned and I think I will be giving the ram to my gf soon.

Would it be too late for me to add bio spira now? How soon should I start to see the Ammonia and nitrite levels rise?


----------



## Puffer Pita

No, its not too late. Add it as soon as possible.


----------



## Gourami Swami

im sure if you told you dad the fish he wanted would kill each other he wouldve understood. and add biospire as soonas as you can.


----------



## Guest

I think that one is a half-beak. I've always wanted one of those. How's it getting along with the other fish?


----------



## Guest

> im sure if you told you dad the fish he wanted would kill each other he wouldve understood


I have to agree. I wouldn't mind if my parents bought me some fish, but they better get along with the fish I already have and be suited for the tank. I wouldn't let them buy something I knew had no place in my tank. You could have told your dad that a certain fish wouldn't go well with the ones you planned on putting in the tank.

Now you're going to have to hurt his feelings and give away the fish he bought you.


----------



## book_em_danio

Not to be a jerk... why after great lengths of discussion about cycling did you put so many fish at once into an uncycled tank??? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## harif87

ummmm......just so you know........youll still have an ammonia problem even after you add bio-spira..............


----------



## Guest

book_em_danio said:


> Not to be a jerk... why after great lengths of discussion about cycling did you put so many fish at once into an uncycled tank??? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## Bear

i was told this was the correct amount of fish, in the chat room here and at the store. And where my dad buying the fish is concerned, let's let that go, it's all been taken care of, except the ram, which is soon to go.

Now what about the ammonia and nitrite? Oh and I tried 3 different fish stores and by the time I got to the 4th it was closed, no bio spira in any of them.

If this is not the correct # of fish what is? It is very hard to get a definite answer during this process because I keep getting so many different answers for each question.


----------



## Christine

I don't know where the other threads are and Im too sleepy to look... but correct number for a stocked tank is not the same amount that you would use to cycle a tank... You really shouldn't completely stock an uncycled tank to max capacity. So while this may be the correct amount of fish for your tank, you should work up to that amount  I also had a hard time finding bio-spira. Best bet, get out the phone book and call stores. I ended up using Seachem's Stability.


----------



## Bear

as of now there are 5 small fish in my tank. I have been told a # of times that this was a good #. If not please let me know so that I can try and take them back to the store today (I dont think they will take the fish). How many should be in there. Please, if I have done something that will stop this tank from cycling correctly tell me so that it can be fixed.


----------



## Christine

Well, what size tank is it?


----------



## harif87

Bear said:


> Now what about the ammonia and nitrite? Oh and I tried 3 different fish stores and by the time I got to the 4th it was closed, no bio spira in any of them.


If your not up to par on the ammo-nitrite-nitrate deal and the whole cycling process read up on it here..... 

On water requirements and cycling:
http://s11.invisionfree.com/The_Fish_Forums/index.php?showtopic=90

and here, a more detailed on cycling: 
http://s11.invisionfree.com/The_Fish_Forums/index.php?showtopic=91

Its all explained in detail.


----------



## Guest

Well you should have found out if they had biospera before you got the fish and if they didn't then you needed to cycle the tank the old fashion way by adding ammonia to it daily and monitor the stats. But you can't do that now since you have fish in it.


----------



## harif87

Durbkat said:


> Well you should have found out if they had biospera before you got the fish and if they didn't then you needed to cycle the tank the old fashion way by adding ammonia to it daily and monitor the stats. But you can't do that now since you have fish in it.


EVERYBODY! BIO SPIRA DOESNT CYCLE YOUR TANK INSTANTLY!

People need to realize that you cant just pour in bio-spira right whne you fill their tank. It is used only after your first set of nitrifying bacteria (Nitrosomonas europae) have grown in... otherwise you have waster your time and money by adding bio-spira

Also he doesnt need to cycle his tank via fishless cycling. He could cycle his tank using the fish present in the tank as a source of ammonia......Its just not wise to use expensive fish, but if you dont have another home for them, then their stuck with the job of ammo producers..


----------



## Guest

About the number of fish in the tank, can you give us a list of the names of the fish you have now. With all the getting rid of and adding, I can't remember everything you have. 

Just adding 5 fish isn't the problem, its the aggression factor in the fish and the potential problems you may have later on.

With a list of fish, I can look them up and tell you if its a good idea to keep them all together.

Sorry we're being so pushy and mean about it, but you had a post to help you out and you didn't seem to take much of our advice. Now we're just trying to prevent any problems you may have.


----------



## Guest

harif87 said:


> If your not up to par on the ammo-nitrite-nitrate deal and the whole cycling process read up on it here.....
> 
> On water requirements and cycling:
> http://s11.invisionfree.com/The_Fish_Forums/index.php?showtopic=90
> 
> and here, a more detailed on cycling:
> http://s11.invisionfree.com/The_Fish_Forums/index.php?showtopic=91
> 
> Its all explained in detail.


Thanks for using links from my forum harif. LOL


----------



## Bear

and i understand that you are trying to help me and i appreciate it, but b/c of many different reasons the way i am doing this was really the only ways i could get my tank started w/ out waiting another 6 months. These fish also werent expensive they were around $5 each.

In my next tank I will def. be sure to do a fishless cycle 

My tank is 40 gallon and there is 5 fish now, but I am taking the Bolivian Ram back to the store after work today.

So after work I will have

1 Bumblebee Cichlid
1 Redtop
and 2 Melanochromis auratus (dont know the common name)

if later the aggressiveness becomes a problem I will most likely have a second tank to take care of the problem so I am not too worried about that (where the Melanochromis auratus are concerned, but I do believe the others should be just fine with eachother)

Once again thank you very much

I have also heard a few times that I should not do a water change for the 1st 3 weeks. This again coming from the chat room here, is this true?


----------



## Guest

nope, get a test kit and when you see ammonia or nitrites do a 20% vacuum cleaning then the next day test it again and do another 15-20% vacuum cleaning if you still have readings of ammonia and nitrite to keep the water stats from being to harmful to the fish.Then just keep repeating those steps to help the fish.


----------



## Bear

ok well this morn there was a little ammonia in the water so i should do a 20% gravel cleaning? then do the same each time i see ammonia or nitrite? I will still get the bacteria i need to convert the nitrite if i do this? Will simply cleaning the gravel do a good enough job?


----------



## Guest

Ok, I have some info on the Melanochromis auratus. From cichlid-forum.com:


> The males will only defend a territory when females are present, but will leave it as soon as no females appear interested. The males are extremely aggressive towards other males and will try to kill any other male of its species.


So you will probably have a problem with 2 in the tank.

There are more than one fish with Red Top in the common name. So, I can't give you info on that one.

The Bumblebee cichlid, or Pseudotropheus crabro is aggressive. This is from cichlids.com:


> A very aggressive and territorial species that will not mix well in an African Cichlid Community when full grown.


 But the person who wrote the profile said that he/she had personally kept one in a mixed African tank and found it to be passive.

I'll do more research later. Right now, the auratus would be the only problem.


----------



## Bear

and i knew about the problem with the auratus and i am concerned about it. I could not find the common name for the fish i wanted and it looked very close to this so...that is my mistake, but that will be fixed with getting another tank. where the other two are concerned I believe they are aggressive, but should be fine together


----------



## Bear

Red Top Kimpuma

is the name of the red top

when it says that the fish are territorial, how do I give them a territory? Add more rocky caves, what kinda caves should I give them?

sry about double posting, just forgot to reresh to see my last post

I am going to the fishstore I like today that was closed yesterday to return the ram and hopefully get some bio-spira, but when do I add it? when there is ammonia present or nitrite, and how much of the chemical. Once again sorry for all of the questions, but you guys seem to know everything and I would love to be so knowledgeable


----------



## Guest

Bear said:


> ok well this morn there was a little ammonia in the water so i should do a 20% gravel cleaning? then do the same each time i see ammonia or nitrite? I will still get the bacteria i need to convert the nitrite if i do this? Will simply cleaning the gravel do a good enough job?


Yeah, then depending on how much ammonia is present just do a 10-15% vacuum cleaning.


----------



## Bear

what level of ammonia am i looking for b4 cleaning?


----------



## Guest

Lets put it this way, if you have a reading of ammonia then you need to do a 10-20% vacuum cleaning depending on how large of amount it is. What reading did you get this morning?


----------



## Bear

i believe it was .25 ppm, but i will check again in an hour when i leave work


----------



## harif87

When the ammo passes 1.0 ppm then you need a water change.

You add the bio-spira after your ammonia goes to 0 and you start having nitrite. Its not a chemical its the neccessary strain of bacteria that eventually grows in your tank if you let your tank cycle..


----------



## Bear

so now im getting mixed signals. Should i keep doing the gravel cleanings to keep the ammonia down or should i do a water change when it hits 1 (and if this how big of a water change?)? 

How high would the ammonia start to rise before it falls and the nitrite rises?


----------



## Guest

See I believe that you should do it when it gets to .25ppm or higher.


----------



## Bear

do what the gravel cleaning?

see this is my problem, there are just so many different ways this is done that I am having a hard trim trying to find out what a good solid way to do this is.


----------



## Guest

Yes the different advice can be confusing. I'll add my 2 cents though.

I'd get the Bio-Spira now if you can find it. Add it now. You have a source of ammonia, the fish. See where your ammonia is after a day of the Bio-Spira. I believe most fish can handle around 1ppm of ammonia. I had a mini-cycle appear in my 10g before and the ammonia got up to 2ppm with a betta and 7 neons and I never lost a fish.

If after you add the Bio-Spira the ammonia is above 1ppm, do a water change of 20%. *Do not clean the gravel!!!! *That defeats the purpose of adding bacteria. Just take out water...don't mess with the gravel or the filter.

Bio-Spira doesn't work instantly, but it supposedly works overnight. From the Marineland website:


> BIO-Spira, containing several newly discovered patented and patent pending species of the actual nitrifying bacteria found in closed, freshwater aquatic systems is "biological filtration" in a bottle. It literally works overnight to prevent fish loss due to ammonia and nitrite toxicity....Fish can be safely introduced to new aquariums within 24 hours rather than weeks...and kept alive and healthy through the initial critical period.


A 1 ounce package is good for 30 gallons and a 3 ounce package is good for 90 gallons. I'd just get a 1 ounce package, because if you get more than you need, the rest will be wasted, unless you have another tank that needs it. It should be refrigerated, so if its not cold at the store, don't buy it.



> Add more rocky caves, what kinda caves should I give them?


I'd get some holy rock and just pile it up but make sure its stable. You can make some caves also with rock. Look around on the cichlid forum on here and see if people have pictures of their tanks. Also look in the picture forum. That will give you some ideas.

THIS SITE has pictures of Malawi tanks. They use alot of rocks as you can see. It doesn't really matter what kind...just stack them up so they can choose their territories.

*edited to add even more*


----------



## Guest

Do you mean "how do I do gravel cleanings" or "How much water do I take out during a gravel cleaning" as I'm confused as to what your asking. Or yeah, justonemore is right about the gravel cleanings *slaps self in the head* just remove about 20% of the water don't do a gravel cleaning.


----------



## book_em_danio

Not sure if you did bio-spira or not. Not all that relative at this point. My understanding B.S. (gotta love that name) knocks down the ammonia, but doesn't knock down Nitr*i*tes or Nitr*a*tes. How could it? Fish have been in there for less than 72 hours. There's not enough time for the bacteria colony to grow, B.S. or not.
If you clean the gravel with a vac, you are removing a significant amount of the nitrifying bacteria *you want*. http://leesaqpet.com/PICCAT/product_index/item/11558/
At this point, it isn't all that necessary.

If you just remove water, without coming in contact with the gravel, you will get your ammonia levels down. I'd suggest a 25% water change daily for several days. This is probably going to be less disturbing to your very new bacteria colony, yet gets the deadly ammonia levels down. I'd also suggest feeding very little and only once per day. Less in, less out. Less out, less ammonia. If they can't finish in 1 minute, clean up the rest with a net until things settle down.

The problem with forums is _Who is the authority? Who is not?_ Some people will say they are and I'm not. This is not the thread to go down that road. You can take my words as gospel, complete Bio-Spira, or B.S.

Good luck.


----------



## Guest

Wow! They make self starting gravel vacs? I have the one where you have to submerge it then wait for it to fill up and put my thumb over the small end. :lol:


----------



## Puffer Pita

You can use Prime or something similar (possibly Amquel Plus although I don't know how that works) which detoxifies the ammonia and nitrites so it doesn't harm the fish. It doesn't remove them so it doesn't interfere with the cycle process.


----------



## Guest

Bio-Spira is good bacteria...it doesn't do anything to the ammonia, except feed off of it. It is live bacteria...that's why you need the fish in there for it to work.

Using Amquel or anything that detoxifies will mess up your readings. I'd just to water changes to lower the ammonia or nitrite levels. If it gets really high and you can't get it down (I doubt this will happen), then result to the Amquel.


----------



## harif87

JustOneMore20 said:


> Bio-Spira is good bacteria...it doesn't do anything to the ammonia, except feed off of it.


Wrong again...bio-spira does not feed off of ammonia.....

May i ask why everyone has ignored everything i said about Bio-Spira in this thread???? I really dont mean to be a pain......


----------



## Guest

Ok, it nitrifies the ammonia, meaning it converts the ammonia to nitrite, then to nitrate. Maybe it doesn't "feed" off the ammonia, but it does pretty much the same thing that the good bacteria you build up does. Converts ammonia to nitrates.

I'm reading an article in Pet Product News that was linked to on the Marineland website that says just that. So, I'm not making it up.


----------



## harif87

JustOneMore20 said:


> Ok, it nitrifies the ammonia, meaning it converts the ammonia to nitrite, then to nitrate. Maybe it doesn't "feed" off the ammonia, but it does pretty much the same thing that the good bacteria you build up does. Converts ammonia to nitrates.


Strike two


----------



## Guest

Ok smarty pants...what does it do? Prove the Marineland website wrong....just because they made it doesn't mean they know anything.



> The Nitrospira bacteria are cultured and raised
> in the facility in eight towering 2,300-gallon tanks.
> Hovanec and his team of scientists and technicians
> carry out regular testing on the tanks to make sure
> the bacteria are growing well.
> One type, species of Nitrosospira and
> Nitrosomonas, converts ammonia to nitrite,
> and another type, the Nitrospira, converts nitrite
> to relatively harmless nitrate within aquariums.


----------



## Christine

According to the marineland site, you add bio-spira at set up with fish. I've never heard anything other than that... until this thread. I'm curious Harif, can you please show us where your information is coming from. I'd like to see what you are talking about.


----------



## harif87

JustOneMore20 said:


> Ok smarty pants...what does it do? Prove the Marineland website wrong....just because they made it doesn't mean they know anything.


After i point things out individually you finally go and do some research........

Bio-spira (As you have read is the bacteria under the genus _Nitrospira_) is the bacteria that turns, not ammonia into nitrite, but nitrite into nitrate.. The bacteria that turns ammonia into nitrite is called nitrosomonas europae (as you mentioned from the article above). What people fail to realize is that adding bio-spira to a tank does nothing for ammonia since nitrospira has nothing to do with ammonia... It only takes care of nitrite which is why it must be added after readings of ammonia are 0 ppm and nitrites are detcted...

Justonemore im sorry for picking on you, i really am, but its just terrible to see a whole bunch of people following blindly the words that they make up. I dont at all question your intelligence, justonemore, because i know by your posts that your not anywhere near a newb. Again im sorry for picking on you, i just wanted to get my point across. If i offended you i really seriously am terribly sorry. If i embarressed you PM me or somehting ill do my best to make it up.


----------



## harif87

Christine said:


> According to the marineland site, you add bio-spira at set up with fish. I've never heard anything other than that... until this thread. I'm curious Harif, can you please show us where your information is coming from. I'd like to see what you are talking about.


My info comes straight from the manufacturer http://www.marineland.com/science/biospirarep/6Nitrobacter.asp

Maybe you should do a little reading yourself christine

Like i said its "Its nitrospira not nitrobacter" and not "Its nitrospira not nitrosomonas".....................big difference between the two

And like i said i dont mean to offend anyone i just need people to realize what theyre talking about


----------



## Christine

I have been reading..... I read a LOT.

According to the ingredients, bio-spira contains Water, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira.


----------



## harif87

Christine said:


> According to the ingredients, bio-spira contains Water, Nitrosomonas, Nitrosospira and Nitrospira.


According to Cycle by nutrafin and Fritz-zyme they both contain Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter as well.....you dont see instant results with them.......


----------



## Guest

I'm not at all embarrassed because I was partly right, about the nitrite part . The website doesn't say anything about the ammonia needing to be 0 for it to work. In fact it says it works overnight and ammonia isn't gone overnight, so the Marineland sight is misleading. That's where i got my understanding of what Bio-Spira does. 

Thanks for explaining it to us all....now we'll know what it does and can pass on correct information.

I've never used Bio-Spira, but I've seen alot of people who have and it seems like it works "instantly" but I knew that couldn't be true. I've seen posts where people had measurable ammonia and wondered why.

IMO Cycle doesn't do much at all. What's your take on it harif?


----------



## Christine

I guess they are just missing the magic ingredient  Oh and Cycle.. ugh that stuff I found to be utter crap. I used it on my first tank I set up when I started again... It was like an 8-10 week cycle or some garbage (I forgot exactly but it was loooong).


----------



## harif87

Well the reason why i said ammo should read 0 is because generally when ammo is 0 it means that you got your notrosomonas giving off nitrite, which is what the nitrospira need to feed off of. But you were almost on the money .


----------



## Guest

Haha...sorry for taking up your thread Bear! Harif just had to set us straight.


----------



## harif87

Well i also read somewhere else that Nitrobacter could also become the established dominant strain of bacteria which turns nitrite to nitrate without the presence of nitrospira. Which makes me wonder why bio-spira would work better than any othe rrefrigerated source of nitrobacter....If immediate results arent seen with the nitrobacter, who has the potential to become the established dominant strain, why do i have reason to belive that with a smiliar strain i would see immediate results? Just some stuff to think about.....


----------



## harif87

JustOneMore20 said:


> Haha...sorry for taking up your thread Bear! Harif just had to set us straight.


You pretty much set yourself straight by looking it up i just made you angry enough to do it lol sorry


----------



## Bear

i just went to the store and talked to a very knowledgeable guy who has about a million fish tanks. He said that I should wait 2 months and then start doing water changes and gravel cleaning every week or 2. He said there is a chance a couple of the fish might die, but they are only $5 and he will give me a deal on them (he is a family friend).

I have a question that I am kinda...well its weird. When i put my arm in the tank to move the rocks around my fish rush toward my arm...they arent gonna bite me or anything right?


----------



## Guest

They are just hoping you have some food. My fish do that to. Once they realize your arm isn't food, they should swim away. I don't think you have to worry about smaller fish like you do some of the larger ones.


----------



## harif87

That needlenose might bite you since he is more aggressive..but the small ones you have not a thing in the world to worry about..even if they do bite you, its not like theyll even break skin


----------



## Bear

ok well, now i think everything is all ready for me to leave it alone for a while. I am going to keep testing the water and looking for rocks to put in it later for the caves. I am also going to put some black vinyl on the back of the fish tank. But if i am going to do this i need to take off the filter for a little while, that wont hurt ne thing right?

oh and the needle nose is not in the tank ne more sry bout that.

there's:

2 aurats'
1 bumblebee
1 red top kimpuma


----------



## Guest

Boxermom said:


> You can use Prime or something similar (possibly Amquel Plus although I don't know how that works) which detoxifies the ammonia and nitrites so it doesn't harm the fish. It doesn't remove them so it doesn't interfere with the cycle process.


I would think amquel+ would work as I use it and used it when I fish cycled my 10g and long 20g (before I had the internet) and it kept the water somewhat ok.


----------



## Bear

so when the ammonia hits "x" then put in how much prime? what is "x"? This doesnt kill the bacteria that is growing?


----------



## book_em_danio

I'm older than most of you. Some, I'm possibly older than your parents, as I am about to turn 42...
I have been doing this on and off a long time, currently on for 7 years. But I have memories of repacking corner filters as kid in 1st grade, which was 1970. I used to have tanks with slate bottoms and stainless steel edges. I can remember my first all glass tank and thinking it was weird. Same opinion of the power filter. Yes, those were different days. Yes, keeping and breeding Danios isn't rocket science or even interesting to most.
The cycling mess to me seems silly. I save some dirty floss from my corner filter when I repack it. I never end up with a mini-cycle this way. I use this material to restart tanks all the time. Presently I have my personal tank and six tanks up in the basement (my breeding tanks). All use the corner filter. I have a 29 with about 65 Giant Danio fry in it. They are 3 weeks old, about .25" each. They are already off "small fry" and taking live brine shrimp from my hatchery. I'm going to start them on staple flake this week.
The tank is fine. Ammonia is 0, Nitrite is 0 and Nitrate runs as little as 5 and as much as 10, depending on how long ago the water was changed. Their parents (2 adult males,4 adult females) spawned in this tank just over 3 weeks ago. They were in it for about 2 weeks before they spawned, but some spawn even quicker. Memorial Day weekend, this tank was bone dry. I just sold about 50 Giant Danios that were about 10 weeks old. They were about .75 to 1" long. Even with 45+ inches of fish in a 29 gallon tank, the readings were fine, but that takes frequent water changes.
I've never used Bio-Spira. I have tried Cycle and StressZyme. They have limited benefit. In my experience, NOTHING beats soiled floss. Like me, my LFS use corner filters. If I needed to seed a tank, they'd be glad to bag up a wad of soiled floss, for free and I'd use it in the same type of filter they use. Many of their customers get floss right from the tank their first fish came from, just to get things started.
http://leesaqpet.com/PICCAT/product_index/item/13405-15/


----------



## book_em_danio

Bear said:


> so when the ammonia hits "x" then put in how much prime? what is "x"? This doesnt kill the bacteria that is growing?


I'd lay off with the chemicals... There's no such thing as magic. All these chemicals try to seem like they are somehow magical. Stick with water changes. Nothing beats old fashioned work.


----------



## Bear

you say stick w/ water changes, so ok. But then how often and how much? I have now been told either to leave the tank as is, feed the fish and let nature take its course for 2 months...or to do 15% water changes everyday....what am i supposed to do?... sorry, but I'm just...well confused

Hey I've got another important question...

what if i am sick? I do get sick a couple of times a year and I believe I am coming down with something now...what should i do? If i put my arm in there could they get it? If by some chance i sneeze in the water can they get sick? Could I have gotten sick from the aquarium?

Oh, how long will a take a fish to mature?


----------



## book_em_danio

Bear said:


> you say stick w/ water changes, so ok. But then how often and how much? I have now been told either to leave the tank as is, feed the fish and let nature take its course for 2 months...or to do 15% water changes everyday....what am i supposed to do?... sorry, but I'm just...well confused
> 
> Hey I've got another important question...
> 
> what if i am sick? I do get sick a couple of times a year and I believe I am coming down with something now...what should i do? If i put my arm in there could they get it? If by some chance i sneeze in the water can they get sick? Could I have gotten sick from the aquarium?
> 
> Oh, how long will a take a fish to mature?


Right now, 25% daily (not touching the gravel) until we get past the ammonia problem. As regular maintainence, 25% every 10-14 days (gravel vac).

Inter-species infection is not too common, but not impossible. All this talk about avian (bird) flu. Right now, it is not likely you or I could get bird flu. It is not likely another animal can get the flu you and I can get. Mutations are possible and that's the scary part about avian flu, how would we treat it? It is new.
I live in an area known for egg farms. We supply eggs for probably 5% of the nation in my county. Bird flu would be bad news here. Just imagine how much eggs would cost if 5% of the hens in the USA had to be destroyed? Would the workers get sick too? Maybe. We don't know for certain.
I personally wouldn't worry about them getting sick. You should wash your hands and arms after being in the tank as a precation. Rinse well, *NEVER* put a soapy hand in a fish tank.

The fish you have will be sexually mature around 12-16 weeks old. Then it will be easier to tell if they are male or female. Once they figure it out, they probably will spawn, even if you don't put Barry White on.


----------



## harif87

and dont forget to wash your hands with soap when you take them out!


----------



## Bear

hehe, i was a little more interestred in their growth, but it would be very neet to be able to distinguish if I have 2 male auratus' or a couple or what...

what will happen if i do what the guy at the petstore said and leave it alone for 2 months? And if i do the water changes wouldnt i keep doing them until i see nirtate?


----------



## harif87

Bear said:


> what will happen if i do what the guy at the petstore said and leave it alone for 2 months? And if i do the water changes wouldnt i keep doing them until i see nirtate?


Theyre gonna die unfortunately. And yes u hit the money, keep doing them till oyu see nitrates. But even when you have nitrates your gonna have to do waterchanges but not nearly as frequent....ur gonnahave to do em like every 1-2 weeks


----------



## Bear

ok, well thanks!

any more advice would be greatly appreciated


----------



## harif87

i have a piece of advice......
Dont do drugs!
and
Be cool stay in school!

Thats all for now.......


----------



## Christine

> Theyre gonna die unfortunately.


It's not necessarily a death sentence. I've had fish live through natural cycling before. (Even back before it was normal to do frequent water changes.) I've lost some too tho. 

I always wash/rinse hands good before and after messing around in the tanks. Not because Im worried a little dirt might kill my fish but because I might have forgotten that I put on lotion 10 minutes before... or that I used a clorox wipe in the kitchen a few minutes ago. Stuff like that.

I believe I've heard of discus getting sick from their owners colds. I don't think I've ever heard of it with any other fish tho...

And Book_em - I really have no idea why you would think at 41 you are older than most members here.... nor why you have to preface all of your advice (which is generally sound from what I've seen) with comments such as that. There are lots of older members here.. some old enough to be your parent  I think maybe there are less posts from those members tho... work, household responsibilities etc that younger members don't necessarily have. If you hang around for a while tho, I'm sure you'll have the pleasure of meeting them also


----------



## harif87

Christine said:


> It's not necessarily a death sentence. I've had fish live through natural cycling before. (Even back before it was normal to do frequent water changes.) I've lost some too tho.
> 
> I always wash/rinse hands good before and after messing around in the tanks. Not because Im worried a little dirt might kill my fish but because I might have forgotten that I put on lotion 10 minutes before... or that I used a clorox wipe in the kitchen a few minutes ago. Stuff like that.
> 
> I believe I've heard of discus getting sick from their owners colds. I don't think I've ever heard of it with any other fish tho...
> 
> And Book_em - I really have no idea why you would think at 41 you are older than most members here.... nor why you have to preface all of your advice (which is generally sound from what I've seen) with comments such as that. There are lots of older members here.. some old enough to be your parent  I think maybe there are less posts from those members tho... work, household responsibilities etc that younger members don't necessarily have. If you hang around for a while tho, I'm sure you'll have the pleasure of meeting them also


I wasnt talking about doing the traditional cycling process, she was talking about leaving them alone without doing water changes for 2 months.....and i respoeded to that "theyre gonna die unfortunately". All the tanks i have are naturally cycled so i would never say that they would die if you naturally cycled 

And Danio if your 42 why does it say under ur username that your 57? I find your words questionable......


----------



## Christine

Harif, it used to be common practice not to do water changes like are done now. Fish still lived  For example, the book that I used to learn about aquariums states,


> "Due to concentration by evaporation, (water)hardness increases in an aquarium over a period of months if no water is drawn off. ... it is advisable to siphon away about 10% of the bottom water occasionally."


 Thats from 19th rev edition of Exotic Aquarium Fishes by Dr. William T. Innes, which is still regarded as one of the best ever  So again, its not neccessarily a death sentence. It's not what is typically done this day in time tho. - And let me clarify before it gets taken the wrong way.. I'm not encouraging this way of doing things, because I do think it puts the fish at much greater _risk_. I'm just saying it does not mean that they will all surely perish as had been said.

And it doesnt say thats Bookems age.. it says thats his number of posts.


----------



## harif87

Christine said:


> Harif, it used to be common practice not to do water changes like are done now. Fish still lived  For example, the book that I used to learn about aquariums states, Thats from 19th rev edition of Exotic Aquarium Fishes by Dr. William T. Innes, which is still regarded as one of the best ever  So again, its not neccessarily a death sentence. It's not what is typically done this day in time tho.
> 
> And it doesnt say thats Bookems age.. it says thats his number of posts.


Wow i had no idea. lol thanx for cluein me in 

and yeah i totally feel like an idiot now (tends to happen alot to me lol) i didnt realize that was his post count hahahah:chair: ...how stupid of me lol


----------



## Christine

We still wub you Harif :console: :-D


----------



## harif87

lol thanx wub u guys too


----------



## Bear

when should I add a pleco? and im thinking of adding a small one, like a candy stripe or a bushy nose. suggestions?


----------



## Christine

I never dug up that other thread.. still don't know your tank size. IMO, I would wait until your done cycling. Plecos are poops machines and will add heavily to your bioload.


----------



## Bear

i think i have said it twice, but i understand b/c this is such a big thread. It is a 40 gal

when would u guys suggest putting in new fish? I woulk think after the cycle as well


----------



## Christine

Thanks Bear, sorry about that  I would add slowly once the cycle is complete. A few fish at a time... no worry. But if you add too much at once, you *could* have problems with bacteria not being able to keep up. I always quarantine my newcomers before putting them in with my other fish, even if they come from someone I know.


----------



## Bear

what do you do during the quarantine to make sure that they are okay?


----------



## Christine

I give the new guys their own bare bottom tank with bare necessities.. heater, filter etc... and observe them for any symptoms that may come up (spots, discolorations, funky patches, fin rot, gasping at surface, scratching, parasites etc etc). I usually do 2 weeks just because Im impatient. I think some people do up to a month. Alot of times people keep a spare tank used for quarantines/treatments. Of course they get water changes and stuff too, but using separate tools or if I have to use the same stuff, it gets bleached afterwards (and rinsed very very very well).


----------



## Bear

For some reason my fish will just be swimming along and every once in a while they willturn sideways really quick and rub on something, then go back to normal...i just noticed them doing it last night, but everything else about the little guys seems normal. They are still as active as ever and cant wait for feeding time...should i be worried?


----------



## book_em_danio

harif87 said:


> And Danio if your 42 why does it say under ur username that your 57? I find your words questionable......


That's _Posts_ *NOT* age. Once you hit 40, you don't like to advertise your age. Now I must be 58. Certainly sometime tonight I'll be 59:rip:

Exactly how do you find my words questionable? Tell me one thing I've said that was wrong please.


----------



## harif87

Bear said:


> For some reason my fish will just be swimming along and every once in a while they willturn sideways really quick and rub on something, then go back to normal...i just noticed them doing it last night, but everything else about the little guys seems normal. They are still as active as ever and cant wait for feeding time...should i be worried?


Sounds like they got some external parasite. You cant see anythign on the skin, like white dots or stringy things hanging loose?


----------



## Bear

nope they look fine, i will check them out when i get home, but i looked at them pretty carefully and couldnt see anything

what do i do if i dont see anything and they keep doing it?


----------



## harif87

Then i would quarantine and treat with maracyn 2 even if i dont see anything


----------



## Bear

what if they are in the only tank i have and all of them are doing it?


----------



## Bear

how about this?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4721&N=2004+113016


----------



## harif87

Since your tank isnt cycled yet, then i would say that its okay to treat in the main tank. 

The reason why its advised to treat in a quarantine tank is because most medecines kill the good bacteria that we need. But since your tank doesnt really have much of them then i would say its allright to treat in the main tank


----------



## harif87

Some fish are sensitive to copper based medecines and products. But as far as my knowledge goes (which might not be that far) for your fish it should do.


----------



## Bear

k...well then i will keep searching, do you have somewhere you would suggest?


----------



## harif87

Here is something that should take care of the problem:
http://www.petlanddiscounts.com/detail.asp

If that doesnt work try this: 
http://www.petlanddiscounts.com/sea...&txtsearchParamCat=ALL&txtsearchParamType=ALL 
and just pick a FW pack


----------



## book_em_danio

I figured it out... you simply have new fish jitters. Happens to all new fish owners. _Your new babies are sick, almost instantly?_ Unless the store is a dump, that's probably not the case. If it is a dump, patronize a better place.
Again, I'd stay away from chemicals. Settle down, relax. Some people who don't like me, or the way I write have you rather stirred up. Stop running to the store. Stop fussing. All this fussing stresses the fish. Like in humans, stress brings illness. You don't have the experience to diagnose these fish. These people can't seriously diagnose your fish from fragments of data without seeing your fish. Anyone that says they can, probably can't.
Is there a local aquarium society? How about someone at the fish store (not from the fish store)? Nothing beats hands on experience and face to face diagnosis.


----------



## Bear

my brothers got a friend who works at the pet store I got my fish from. A very fish smary person, has a ton of fresh and salt tanks (the guy who said to just wait 2 months). 

I figured that it was what danio said, i am just jittery cuz of my new little babbies...oh well we will see


----------



## harif87

So, danio. How, may i ask, can you say something definite if you havent seen the fish either?


----------



## Bear

he didnt, he just said that I should chill out and keep watching them and then maybe get my brothers friend to come and look at the fish. And he is right i am vry jittery and excited about my fish.


----------



## harif87

Okay i dont mean to be a butt hole but 


> I figured it out... you simply have new fish jitters.


He's pretty stirred up himself

Anyways Bear the only reason why i would suspect that its not the jitters is because its well known that fish bought at the lfs are many times sick when you get them, which is why a couple weeks quarantine is needed. Im not saying it is anything right now, but like i said be vigilant and keep us updated


----------



## support_ur_lfs

Some things are better off as Private Messages. I see egos at forums sometimes get the better of us. 
While I live in the urban area of Newark, NJ, I grew up sort of in the country. Some people might call my parents hippies. We ate a lot of wholesome foods, natural if you will, I hate the implication of organic, but that too. My parents are 20 years older than Dan is, so if he thinks 42 is old, he better start exercising and eating better food. No one in my family is on medications, but we do see our doctors. We are into exercise and eating healthy, so I'd agree with Dan about meds, don't be too quick to go down that road unless you have to.
Hari, you offered to help work for us if we re-opened the store. After assesing the situation, it isn't going to happen. Too much work. Area too "marginal". We have a pet store owner coming to look at the stuff tomorrow and hopefully make an offer on all of it, including the livestock.


----------



## harif87

support_ur_lfs said:


> about meds, don't be too quick to go down that road unless you have to.
> Hari, you offered to help work for us if we re-opened the store. After assesing the situation, it isn't going to happen. Too much work. Area too "marginal". We have a pet store owner coming to look at the stuff tomorrow and hopefully make an offer on all of it, including the livestock.


Well im sorry to hear that, i hope everything else works out for you in the future


----------



## Bear

...

ok well, when i got home and took a nap (i was right i was coming down with something, so i went home early) i tested the ammonia and they were a little over 1, so i did a 20% water change, everything is cool and it dropped the level down some. And the fish stopeed whatever it was they were doing. I have been watching them closely since i woke up and they've been acting normal. I also trust this lfs very much b/c I know the guy who runs the tanks.


----------



## Bear

I just did a water change yesterday afternoon and the ammonia is already back up to 1. Is it normal that I would need to do this frequent of water changes?


----------



## Guest

> it normal that I would need to do this frequent of water changes?


Yep...thats one of the joys of cycling with fish.


----------



## Bear

okie dokie, not that big of a problem


----------



## Guest

Christine said:


> It's not necessarily a death sentence. I've had fish live through natural cycling before. (Even back before it was normal to do frequent water changes.) I've lost some too tho.


Exactly as the guy at my lps is very knowledgable and has alot of huge tanks, he says a 75g to him is like a 10g to most people lol, and when I first started with a 10g I kept like restarting the tank (new gravel, new filter pad) when the water turned green or cloudy so he said just leave it alone for 2 months and only feed the fish and add water when the water level goes down. And the fish made it they were 3 black widow tetras,1 common plec, and 1 blue gourami but the gourami died due to being bullied after he was treated for ich. But those 3 tetras and that common plec are still alive and are in my 55g right now.


----------



## alliecat420

bear.. the best advice i have is to learn from your mistakes.. it's the most effective way to learn.. but just so you dont end up with a tank full of fish who are tearing eachother aprt night and day.. be sure to reseach your compatability.. with the fish you have and the fish you want, that way you dont spend all your money on fish who will kill eachother.. here's one i always used when i started out http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=295 you can also use it to look at cool fish you might want.. find out how big they get and what they eat ect.. and to add to what others said.. i'd go with the biospera for new tank syndrom... leave you lid open and light off for about a day after that to give the bacteria time to grow.. good luck


----------



## Againsthecurent

An old thread wouldn't you say alleicat? I'm sure it was resolved that 2 1/2 years ago. lol


----------

