# The us is in big trouble!!!



## IAN

Tell Obama to eliminate our government's $11,700,000,000,000 debt!

Now $12,200,000,000,000

The U.S. will crash if politicians don't stop with downward spiral.


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## Guest

LOL can we not get into this please?


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## Ghost Knife

IAN said:


> Compile the facts and this is what you get!
> 
> Some simple stats to help you see
> 
> Tell Obama to eliminate our government's $11,000,000,000,000 debt!


Here's another point to go with that. Obama's healtcare plan, which only liberal Democrats are supporting, will cost $24 Trillion dollars. Now where do you think that additional money will come from? That's right, it will come directly out of our pockets in the form of additional taxes. His approval rating is already dropping more rapidly than most former Presidents' first several months in office. 

On top of that all that. Has anyone noticed how Iraq and Afghanistan have mysteriously vanished from the nightly national news stations? This is because our beloved liberal news networks have stopped running stories on these countries because of the surging number of American casualties since Obama took office. This past June was the worst month EVER for American casualties in Afghanistan. Why you ask? Because all of these terrorists groups think Obama is a pushover and will side the Muslims. 

End rant of facts.


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## IAN

MAN! Thanks *Ghost Knife*



View this post to see some other websites dedicated to this, and some debt clocks

My father says the US is over (as a power at least). I agree.

look into those articles and websites if you're interested.

Its reported that to pay our national debt each person (everyone) would have to pay about 40,000 dollars.

Hey *Zakk* you gotta wake up and prepare for hard times! Why should we not go into this? You have to at least give a reason.

I'm not saying its all Obama's fault. Bush gave up alot of debt. Obama is just going to beat every debt-gathering president we've ever had.

I've gotta tell you. I'm trying to get this blog more publicity; so this is one of the reason I'm linking to it. It does have good articles though (linked to it), that's the other reason; I have already posted on it, that's the third reason. THE biggest reason though, is because I want to get people's attention!

It may be true that banksters just want to keep their money, and will move to another country if this fails. I don't know. I'm just trying to understand our current situation and cut through to the truth. I don't want to bash any party but the US as a whole. We're been too greedy. We wanted cheap stuff, so we pay China to make most of our things for us. Now we're paying interest to them. We went off the gold standard too. Was that a mistake? You tell me!


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## Guest

Well for starter

1: Am not into politics 
2: Stating the obvious is not gonna help
3: Am Indian.

Am sorry for what i am about to say but the Bush Administration totally and completely screwed you'll over! Me and a couple of friends who worked in the US Mortgage Industry knew this day was coming 4 years ago. We are no financial experts by a very long shot but we have the nasty habit of keeping our ears to the ground at all times.

Its a nice topic you have brought up but i see a lotta bickering that will sprout up. Call me cynical but thats how i am.

I have said this before and will say it again....Living In India Has Its Perks!


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## IAN

Oh, I had a nice post and I left without posting it. Sorry Zakk, I understand what you mean. Thanks for chiming in.


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## Knight~Ryder

Let not the signs of the times trouble you!
If all else fails move to canada for free healthcare and much much more!


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## Tallonebball

The presidents really don't have much to do with it, we have been getting more and more into debt since WWI and if anyone thinks one president is going to get us out of debt then your crazy. People need to calm down and stop putting so much pressure on the president, seriously do we really think anybody else would be able to get rid of 11000000000000 dollars of debt in 4 years? 
And guess what folks, who gives a crap if we are a world power or not? Theres always going to be only one world power in the world and I don't see the US being taken over by anyone anytime soon besides the fact that when our economy fails, so does everyone who we buy things from aka china, japan, taiwan who are all having financial crises as well.
We have plenty of defense to stay a nation until we are a little more stable. As far as I am concerned this issue just gets rid of the businesses that shouldn't have been around in the first place and teaches a lesson. 
I don't see a turn around anytime until the US learns to stop getting itself into more debt. So its either get smarter yourself or move. I have faith


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## COM

First of all, the link in the OP is filled with inaccurate and misleading *unsourced* stuff.

The debate about the national debt has gone round and round ever since we started running a deficit. In New York, we even have a clock out in the street that keeps track of it for all to see (privately funded, btw):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_clock
I would like to point out that in the picture you can actually read the last digits of the sign. This is because it is now changes only every few seconds. Pre-Clinton, the debt was increasing so fast that you couldn't read the end of the sign. For a while we were actually paying BACK the money and I think it ran in reverse or got covered.

I agree that running deficits is not wise. Here is what is misleading about the way we communicate about the deficits: who is ever going to make us pay? Is some representative from some foreign government some day going to go door to door demanding that people pay up $80k? I doubt it, but that is also why I am a strong supporter of the second amendment.


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## Kyoberr

24 trillion? I heard it cost 2 trillion.

Oh well, what's a few trillion to Obama.


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## COM

Nah, the health care thing would cost AT MOST less than TARP, which is somewhere in the $800 billion range. We get these trillion figures because the health reform bill, in any form, would have some sort of a effective date range, say 50 years. So those who are against it take $800 billion, multiply by 50, and boom: $40 trillion. By the same logic, if a man buys a pencil every day from the Dollar Store for a dollar, over the course of 50 years he'll have spent $18,250 on pencils (at a rate of $1 per day, 365 days a year, times 50 years)

Not that I support this current health reform bill... I don't.

And oh yeah, the US is screwed, and I don't care. And it has little to do with health care or debt. We're just... over. We are a third-world country with a big military (which coincidentally is my favorite part of the US).


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## Tallonebball

Exactly, why does it matter if we aren't a world power, we are still a military world power so i dare someone to take us on.


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## lohachata

why is it that no other country has sent masses of military personnel and weapons onto american soil??????
because the citizens of this country have the right to keep and bear arms..there is a fairly large segment of this country that own weapons.no one is going to invade knowing that their 300,000 troops are going to be met by 50,000,000 armed citizens.. and that will be our only salvation...
but...............................................................
most of america is no longer owned by americans....general motors said more than a year ago that they are going to "give" (not offer) ; all 74,000 of it's employees buyouts.. that is because they are going to shut down all manufacturing in the US and send it out of the country.they will then bring their cars back to the US for us to buy.. 
just like so many other companies are doing the same.. there are only 2 or 3 american owned steel manufacturers left.all others are foreign owned..when we; as americans lose the ability to make steel ; we lose the ability to manufacture weapons.. 
therefore we lose the ability for our military to defend our country.

there are very few products that are still made here..and fewer will be made here in the future...
but.........what do we do about it...
and what about healthcare??????????????????
the majority of young people don't have much of a clue as to what they are going to be seeing fairly soon....and personally ; i doubt that they really care much...
i am 64 years old...and along with many other older folks don't make a lot of money..4 years ago i had a decent job..making $40,000 a year..good medical coverage that i paid part of the premiums.. then i hurt myself at work.. i was let go because the company didn't want to accommodate my work restrictions.. so now i make $13,000 a year with no benefits at all.. i am diabetic and have some other health issues.. but since i have no money for meds or any other kind of medical attention ; i just have to deal with what happens to me.. if i break a leg ; it will just have to heal on it's own.. if i am dying ; i will just have to die..i and so many other millions like me are in the same predicament... not a fun spot to be in ; but we are here ; none the less..


so tell me kid....what kind of trouble is the USA in???????...and could you really blame me if i just don't care????
i can remember a time when , if you screwed up on a job, you got fired and got a black spot on your work record..now...when some idiot with an MBA runs a company into the ground ; they give him a hundred million or so..
the greed of corporate america is what is flushing this country down the toilet..
nah...i don't care...i am not going to live that long anyhow...
my pain is for my daughter and grandchildren..they are the ones that will be starving in the street...

my time is almost over...but there are so many of you young folks coming up...

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO TURN THIS COUNTRY AROUND??????????????????????????????
don't be whining about president obama....unless you can guarantee that you can do better....

if you are not part of the solution ; then you are part of the problem.....


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## COM

That's a great point, John. 50 Million armed citizens! Something else for me to love about America. So now I need to revise my statement: America is a third-world country that happens to have an enormous military and a well-armed population.


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## IAN

According to what I've seen with ammunition prices + target practice, either we won't have enough ammunition as citizens, or we'll be such horrible shots because we can never practice cuz its too expensive! Besides, untrianed, mostly unfit citizens against for instance, the Chinese army? Who will win? The answer is pretty obvious. Hopefully we don't lose our military just yet.

Some country could just nuke us in a couple years...if they really wanted to and didn't care.

I would say, from my perspective, that what we young people can do is stay out of debt and conserve resources.

My father (51) says the standard of living is so deteriorated here. He's a STRUCTURAL ENGINEER and is very careful with his finances. He doesn't even own his house. He's making HALF what he should make with all the experience he has. We live in a SMALL house. Barely any yard (well, SD is expensive) Basically, we we haven't paid off our house yet. That's going to take awhile at this rate.

Yeah, we're a third world country. There's a lot of pain and suffering out there. But, I must say, "In God we trust--as a family." .


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## IAN

oh, and thanks for your offer about Canada KR, I might consider it...LOL



But then, that's what people may start doing, weakening my country even more...


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## Tallonebball

I dare a country to nuke us, as citizen we have absolutely no idea what the government and military have protecting us. For all we know we have satellites ready to laser blast any nuke coming our direction and then we will just simply wipe whoever had the balls to pull a stunt like that off the map. I like living in American, Its much better than some other alternatives. And just as Loha said, leave obama alone, im a republican and he needs to be left alone, I give him kudos for even wanting to try to fix us, hes under enough stress as it is.


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## Tallonebball

And believe me, one nuke is sent, and there will be a chain reaction of nukes defending the previously nuked and by the end, 3/4'ths of the worlds countries will be gone.


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## lohachata

ian...how much do you really know about firearms???????
unless you really know about firearms and those that own them ; it would be best to not open your mouth about them..let's take just 1 kind of firearm..i of thousands of different models that are out there.. the AK-47....not the full auto version ; but the semi-auto version...how many do you think exist in the US?.....100,000????....500,000???.....more like 4-6 million of them..many of us american citizens are not unfit as you called us..nor are we terrible shots..
i doubt you have much knowlege of ammunition either..i can't even count the number of people i know that are capable of manufacturing 1000 rounds an hour..
terrible shots................this is my daughters pistol..i have watched her hit a playing card at 25 yards....calibre is .45ACP...230 grain semi-wadcutter....1150 FPS.....no..that isn't a scope..just a sight for speed shooting...










i spent more than 26 years as a firearms dealer..ammo...i have more than 10,000 rounds tucked away..
google "knob creek machine gun shoot"...everybody there is a civillian..in the united states ; a citizen can legally own almost any weapon there is..including tanks,rocket launchers, machine guns and the rest..even armed aircraft..
really learn about something before you make any statements...and quit reading all that hokey drivil you find on the internet...talk to poeple that have "been there ; done that"


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## COM

There actually is an ammo shortage starting. Ammo prices have been going up - there is definitely stockpiling going on. Of course that it is commercially- sold ammo. Lots of people do make their own, too...


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## Guest

IAN said:


> According to what I've seen with ammunition prices + target practice, either we won't have enough ammunition as citizens, or we'll be such horrible shots because we can never practice cuz its too expensive! Besides, untrianed, mostly unfit citizens against for instance, the Chinese army? Who will win? The answer is pretty obvious. Hopefully we don't lose our military just yet.


When you were about the age of 5, we were at war with Pakistan. guess what? we won. why? coz we would not surrender the LOC to them without giving them a run for their money.

Ian,

do not go under estimating the pride one takes in ones country. at 15, you are yet to see the world my friend. if it does come down to street level fighting that needs armed citizen to defend the country, you will be surprised at the out come. your "unfit" citizen will be the one to defend u. dont go calling them that when end of the day you will need them.


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## IAN

*Thanks John.* I have used firearms, and know that at the target range, people can get wasteful. I said "from what I've seen". Just a thought, some people posted adds at the target range saying "I love this gun but I need money" and selling them.

Based on this, and the rising price of ammunition, the lowering wealth of this country, and the bad economy, I have said what I said. I'm sure my opinion is flawed.

When you say we can own tanks, seriously? In CA you can't buy assault weapons, but I think you can still have them if they're yours already, or maybe purchase them in another state. If you can own tanks, can you make your own? I have made devices that split water into hydrogen and oxygen, at a very fast rate for their size. The gas produced is extremely explosive, and has great force. I have made bottle rockets, bottle bazookas, even a metal gun. I haven't found anything the gun will shoot, as I tried to design the barrel to fit an airsoft pellet, but it was too big. This hydrogen prototype is very loud, and possibly dangerous.

As to most Americans being unfit: Many don't know what is really going on (I don't know), and we are therefore unfit. It is reported that 1/3 of American adults are obese, and are therefore unfit (most likely, I don't know because I'm on the thin side). Most Americans aren't trained to resist an invasion, and are therefore unfit for that purpose (for the present). Many Americans are in debt, and therefor unfit to lose their jobs and survive on savings for some time. This reasoning has led me to conclude that most Americans are unfit for what may be coming, not that they aren't supplied with weapons. I'm sure that people with several guns will give them to neighbors is civilian military action was needed, so the population of armed civilians would increase...

I hypothesize that for American citizens to be pressed to fight an invasion to save their selves, families, homes, and country, our military would have to be very weak. Which, if the money supply gets low, we may have to cut back. I must also remember technology. It would probably be safe to say that we have very advanced weaponry, but other nations with greater financial resources may surpass us in time.

In the event that tanks rumbled and helicopters flew through your town; would you get out your machine guns, your rifles, shotguns, and pistols and blaze away at them? I think that would be pretty useless. For this to happen, I feel that we would have to be very weak as a nation for this to happen. We would probably not have enough food, be very miserable, etc. In fact, people might start selling their ammunition and weapons. [please help me with these thoughts. not very likely eh?]

I realize that this is probably--if it ever happens--far down the road. Nothing of this sort is going to happen _NOW_. In the even that some nation doesn't want to deal with conquest when we're weak, and just want to get us off the earth, they very well could nuke us. By that time they might have better weapons and defense systems. I do not know.

Thanks Zakk for your reply, Yes, I guess we'll have to stick together! Tell me more about the "Pakistan War" 

*Thanks COM for informing me about the coming ammunition shortage. 
*
Anyway, I'm not saying anything that I'm right, not trying to say this is what will happen, I'm just putting my concerns and thoughts out there for you guys with more experience to correct. In other words, I want to hear your differing opinions. It will help me--and you--get a better knowledge of our situation.

*So please keep it a pleasant (if a $11 trillion debt can be pleasant), correct me where I'm wrong, and tell me where I'm right (if anywhere LOL :mrgreen. Thanks guys for furthering my understanding of these issues.*

Ian


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## IAN

Oh and one more thing, If it does come down to street fighting Zakk, my "unfit" civilian and I will be raising one good fight. Right now, (it may be different on the battlefield), I'm ready. In any event, nothing is going to stop me from helping defend my neighbors and my country. I'll even stop everything and try to make hydrogen artillery guns and explosives for SD's "army"! Who knows, I may even succeed.

I've always heard that it's very different from my friends battlefield computer games though. Emotionally. And it will definately be different without proper equipment. Lets please remember that *I hope I never see that day.*


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## Guest

look up Kargil on google Ian. u'll find the answer


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## IAN

Hey thanks. I never knew anything about this war. I didn't know it happened.

So you guys actually gained MORE land in the outcome?


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## Guest

no. we were defending the LOC (line of control) that seperates India from Pakistan.


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## lohachata

have you ever heard of shockwave technology???..i almost got a pistol several years ago ;but the government got to the company before i did..
pistol looked like a high end 22 cal compettition pistol...battery pack was where the magazine would go..no sound..adjustable power levels..capable of anything from stun to kill..will kill a cape buffalo at 100 yards....


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## lohachata

here s a linkl to the knob creek shoot..you can even rent stuff like flamethrowers...

http://www.machinegunshoot.com/shootinfo.htm

ian..when i sold guns ,i held a class 2 FFL..i had several friends that held class 3 licenses..
but 1 friend held a class 7 license..class 7 is for "the sale and manufacture of automatic weapons and destructive devices"...in his garage is a mobile rocket launcher...with rockets...and on his patio is an anti-aircraft gun...needless to say..his neighbors are very nice to him...lol
you can only make weapons if you have the proper licensing...
but yes..a private citizen can legally own a tank or almost whatever weapon he chooses..


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## IAN

Hey * Zakk*, I read you were defending the LOC, but I thought I also read that you took some land from Pakistan in the end? Anyway, wasn't there something about the strategic town of Kargil? You probably know more fully. If you don't mind, please PM me your thoughts + the facts.

*John*, I NEVER heard of shockwave technology. Sounds really dangerous. Just think what a bigger version of that could do. How did it work? (the General Idea please)

Knobb creek. If its anything like the shooting range I go to, (people with semi-auto shotguns and rifles) it ought to be CRAZY! John, I don't know much about guns--the black powder ones--, but I'm starting to learn about the power of hydrogen. I made this 500ml bottle rocket bazooka ok. When you shoot it in the winter, the heat from the explosion makes a cloud of smoke come out the back. Most 500ml bottles cannot stand the explosion and are destroyed, so we have to fill them half full with the hydrogen. In fact, one new years eve, I was in a rush when I filled them BOOOM BOOOM BOOOM. OWWW that hurts ears! They just kept exploding! We pull the broken bottles out of the unit, and replace a new one. Then we filled a 1L bottle and put it on a launcher. I press the button, expecting to see a great flash of fire...the bottle wasn't filled up enough for fire, but it didn't go anywhere either. The bottom was totally blown off. It was sitting there on the launcher, as we stared dumbfounded at it, and the sound from the explosion (we covered our ears this time) echoed and blasted across the valley. It was like nothing i have ever seen, but then again, I have never gone bigger than 1L, and have never _COMPRESSED_ the hydrogen. I can't fathom the explosion. BTW, the flame front of hydrogen is 1000 times faster than gasoline, and when the hydrogen and oxygen recombine in the explosion, you get *water*! You'd have to have been there. The point is, 300ml of hydrogen shoots a tennis ball pretty far.

The main trick however, is producing the hydrogen--not exploding it--that's easy. (any spark will set it off. Electric igniters anyone?). Something I am currently working on.

Back to the noisless shockwave pistol, that's really cool! Like I asked before, do you have any clue how it works? Hey, they could even put solar panels underneath a transparent plastic grip. Charge on the go...

That weapon must be highly classified by the government. Did _anyone_ ever get to order one?

Where is this "Knob Creek" anyhow. They mentioned something about explosives that explode when the bullet hits them? LOL, maybe if people take their old appliances there they can call it "recycling"!

Thanks guys!

Ian


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## IAN

By the way, I'll be visiting my grandfather, so I will not be able to reply to anything soon. Here or elsewhere.

Cape buffalo are pretty large and fierce, from what I've read.

Zakk, is it true that only one Indian was captured by Pakistan?


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## IAN

My internet went out while I was modfying a post, and I somehow reposted a really long post when I hit the back button. Writing this was all I could do.

THIS POST IS NOT INTENTIONAL. IGNORE IT PLEASE. THANKS


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## Guest

well we reclaimed the land that was encroached. 120kilometers of it.


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## IAN

but what about the town of kargil? What happened there?


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## Guest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil

the confrontation took place there dude. everything is back to normal now. its been 10 long years.


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## IAN

Yeah, I read that. I was just wondering-since you're Indian, whether you say what happened in your own words. and you did.

So thank you very much Zakk; what was life after the war. You Indians were Politically correct. It was the Pakistanis (how do you spell) that were in the wrong. You both had nukes too. Was there any fear at the time of nuclear warfare?

Did you live in India at the time, and do you live there now? You type such great English (COMPLIMENT! ) I'm still not sure...


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## COM

Uhh, Ian... you do realize that English is the official language of India, don't you? India was a British colony for about a century. Pakistan and Bangladesh too. For mainly religious reasons, there is tension between India and Pakistan that persists. Disputed territories, embargoes, armament. It seems to have leveled off recently, probably because Pakistan is too busy getting overrun with Taliban...

The issue of nuclear proliferation in India and Pakistan was a major concern in the mid and late nineties. Both sides were conducting underground testing in defiance of international treaties. The French did a few tests too on some islands in the Pacific. This was a daily, front-page New York Times type of thing for months. I wish I could remember exactly when... I know I was in high school. Maybe 1997 or 1998. The Indian and Pakistani embassy residences were both in the town where I went to school; the daughters of both ambassadors were in my class. Very tense at times.


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## lohachata

lol.........ian... knob creek is nothing like the range you go to. by comparison....wher you go is like a couple of kids with pea shooters..
the semi annual knob creek machinegun shoot has almost all of the big stuff...all owned by civillians..every type of machinegun you can think of..tanks....mortars...rockets....flamethrowers...the whole enchilada...
knob creek is almost next door to fort knox , kentucky.....this is where the big boys play..


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## Ghost Knife

lohachata said:


> lol.........ian... knob creek is nothing like the range you go to. by comparison....wher you go is like a couple of kids with pea shooters..
> the semi annual knob creek machinegun shoot has almost all of the big stuff...all owned by civillians..every type of machinegun you can think of..tanks....mortars...rockets....flamethrowers...the whole enchilada...
> knob creek is almost next door to fort knox , kentucky.....this is where the big boys play..


I saw one of those new automatic shotguns displayed at knob creek on Youtube with the 20 round drum magazine on the bottom. It riddled a piece of plywood in about 3 shots, which took less than 2 seconds.


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## lohachata

some years ago i bought several cases of 12 guage shotgun ammo called "dragon's breath"..i only have a couple of hundred rounds left..
here is a little demo i found on youtube.....................................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCYFg-gYUk


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## IAN

Ok, I do not have much time to reply. COM, I did know that India was a British colony. I had forgotten it however. Even though it was a British colony, it never occured to me that the official language was english. SEE THE THINGS YOU LEARN!!! Thanks!

So they have the big weapons too? COOL!

I would not want to suddenly appear down range!

Ok, well its been nice conversing with you guys. Thanks for all the advice, and the knowledge you have given me. I will be gone for aproximately a week, and may (as has happened before obviously) lose interest in the forum--but I'll be back ;-)

so count me out of here for the time being. Even though the US is in trouble, Its just to pleasant and easy to forget about it. That kind of bugs me.

BTW, is that post: "Proof God is Real" the longest post ever on this forum. The last time I saw it, the #s were 360 replies. I really don't want to get into that here but am just asking what post is the LONGEST. (out of curiosity) I wouldn't try to read the posts on that thread LOL.


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## Guest

Actually,

English is a secondary language to most people out here. our national language is Hindi, typically spoken by people up north and each states has a local dialect.


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## COM

Back to the issue of national debt:

Did you know that, despite the staggering size of the US national debt, as a percentage of Gross Domestic Product, it is the 22nd largest in the world. This means that when you compare the size of the debt to the size of the economy, there are 21 countries that are far more burdened that the US is. That is somewhat comforting to me.

Source: The CIA world fact book. Yes, the real CIA, not the cooking school.
https://cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html


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## Albino_101

Oh guys by the way the healthcare plan has a section which if passed allows the government to take out money from your private bank accounts to pay for the national healthcare, this of course is completely communistic and people will withdraw all their money causing all banks to crash and burn making the great depression seem like the golden years, if this bill passes Obama will definitely be impeached, not re-elected, or shot by some angry citizen now broke due to a dumb plan that got passed that no one even bothered to read, all of this along with bankrupting our country. One last thing, a quote from a comedy central show recently "The only reason god created the son was so it would rise to Obama every morning as a big incandescent F**k you" in recent debate over his environmental bill. We don't need everyone switching over to those very dim energy saving light bulbs(which does help not saying that it doesn't), we just need gas companies to stop buying and shelving ideas of a car that a group of teenagers designed which got 171 miles to the gallon on normal gasoline and if instead all that money we wasted in Iraq was spent on solar panel technology research, it would be perfected by now and our whole country and transportation system would run on it, instead of paying gas and energy bills people could pay off debts and stimulate the economy.


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## k-dawg-

-The idea that the US is "out for good" as a world power is absurd. 

-The US is not the only country experiencing hard times right now.

-Other countries even large once as suffering far worse, ie: Japan

-Japan's economy is at a standstill due to cuts in there two largest exports, car and electronics

-Smaller economies have been completely devasted, ie: UAE particularly Dubai

-We haven't been out of debt since the 40s

-The US economy we rebound although over a longer period than most have hoped.

-Close to 10 trillion dollars of the deficit was inherited from Bush

-Good day and Flame on!

=)

PS I don't support Obama's healthcare policies and didn't bother to read everything written here just skimmed


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## elvis332

Tallonebball said:


> The presidents really don't have much to do with it, we have been getting more and more into debt since WWI and if anyone thinks one president is going to get us out of debt then your crazy. People need to calm down and stop putting so much pressure on the president, seriously do we really think anybody else would be able to get rid of 11000000000000 dollars of debt in 4 years?
> And guess what folks, who gives a crap if we are a world power or not? Theres always going to be only one world power in the world and I don't see the US being taken over by anyone anytime soon besides the fact that when our economy fails, so does everyone who we buy things from aka china, japan, taiwan who are all having financial crises as well.
> We have plenty of defense to stay a nation until we are a little more stable. As far as I am concerned this issue just gets rid of the businesses that shouldn't have been around in the first place and teaches a lesson.
> I don't see a turn around anytime until the US learns to stop getting itself into more debt. So its either get smarter yourself or move. I have faith


well one president can get the country out of debt.cuz the president in brazil got there whole country out of debt.he was probbly there best president in a long time.but sadly he his last year is ending and someone else will be president so i do belive that obama can take usa out of a debt!


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## elvis332

Tallonebball said:


> Exactly, why does it matter if we aren't a world power, we are still a military world power so i dare someone to take us on.


Israel could probbly take USA on.


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## COM

Albino_101 said:


> Oh guys by the way the healthcare plan has a section which if passed allows the government to take out money from your private bank accounts to pay for the national healthcare,


Where do you get this crap? Not even Rush Limbaugh is so wrong! Please visit www.govtrack.com - you will that they have lots of impartial information on everything through congress.


----------



## IAN

k-dawg- said:


> -Close to 10 trillion dollars of the deficit was inherited from Bush


I don't know what you're talking about deficit, but Bush ran up almost 4.9 trillion in debt; not 10.



> The U.S. is running up so much debt so quickly, some investors are worried. Over the weekend, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, who says his country has about a trillion dollars invested in U.S. Treasury notes, said he wanted a guarantee.
> 
> President Obama said Wen’s got nothing to worry about.
> 
> “Not just the Chinese government, but every investor, can have absolute confidence in the soundness of investments in the United States,” he said on Saturday.
> 
> That’s because the U.S. government’s power to tax stands behind all of its debt. If Uncle Sam ever needs a bailout, then as now, taxpayers get nailed.
> 
> It took the U.S. government 191 years – from 1791 until 1982 – to run up its first trillion dollars in debt. The second and third trillions got on the scoreboard much more quickly – each in just four years.
> 
> *By the time George W. Bush was inaugurated in 2001, the National Debt stood at $5.7-trillion. He ran up more debt faster than nearly all of his predecessors combined: just under $4.9-trillion.
> *



It is said that every man woman and child would have to pay almost $40,000 to get the United tates out of Debt.

If you had a familiy of 4, could you pay $120,000?  I don't think most people could pay $40,000 in cash for themselves. can they? I'm not sure.


----------



## IAN

Zakk said:


> Actually,
> 
> English is a secondary language to most people out here. our national language is Hindi, typically spoken by people up north and each states has a local dialect.


Zakk, I thought you guys had many languages (the regional ones). I didn't know you spoke hindi. I didn't think your national language was english though--until COM brought that up. Thanks for the info!


----------



## Guest

we do. each state has its own and within that there are varieties to the language as well. its messed up man!


----------



## elvis332

thats cool.


----------



## IAN

Zakk said:


> we do. each state has its own and within that there are varieties to the language as well. its messed up man!


Totally!

but anyway, back to the topic.


----------



## elvis332

ok back to the topic!US is in trouble but can be out of it!


----------



## IAN

It is possible, but in my opinion doubtful...at least for a while.


----------



## elvis332

ummm ooook


----------



## IAN

However, thanks for sharing you opinion Elvis!

I think I might add a poll...if possible.


----------



## IAN

Ghost Knife said:


> Here's another point to go with that. Obama's healtcare plan, which only liberal Democrats are supporting, will cost $24 Trillion dollars. Now where do you think that additional money will come from? That's right, it will come directly out of our pockets in the form of additional taxes. His approval rating is already dropping more rapidly than most former Presidents' first several months in office.


I don't know about 24 trillion, but I do know that when one of Obama's plans was voted on in the house of representatives, NO republicans; and ALL but* 20 *democrates voted "yes".


----------



## elvis332

ok.you welcome


----------



## Tallonebball

> well one president can get the country out of debt.cuz the president in brazil got there whole country out of debt.he was probbly there best president in a long time.but sadly he his last year is ending and someone else will be president so i do belive that obama can take usa out of a debt!


There is absolutely no way Obama could get us out of the debt we are in at this moment in 4 years, Brazil has nothing to do with the US and really is a completely different situation.


> Israel could probbly take USA on


I'd like to see them try. Where exactly are you getting your information from elvis? lol


----------



## elvis332

Tallonebball said:


> There is absolutely no way Obama could get us out of the debt we are in at this moment in 4 years, Brazil has nothing to do with the US and really is a completely different situation.
> 
> I'd like to see them try. Where exactly are you getting your information from elvis? lol


ok well give obama some time he can get a americans out of debt!but maybe he wont or maybe he will.  and it is not a different situation!

well they probbly are not going to try and cuz israel has one of the worlds strongest military.and there so small and yet all its surrounding palastines cant lay a finger on them!


----------



## IAN

Besides, what is this about Israel? They take us on? I mean, I don't think that's going to happen. We are or WERE at least supporting Israel.

I know someone from Israel and she said that the Israelis want to be like America.

Anyway, I read in SEVERAL places that Obama plans to cut the deficit in half. THAT'S NOT THE DEBT MIND YOU! The deficit is how much they add to the debt each year. I also read in those same sources, that its going to cost a lot to cut that deficit, which means that we will be deeper in debt. And costing money to cut the deficit doesn't make sense. The reason being is that he's trying to revive the economy at the same time.

TELL OBAMA TO FORGET ABOUT THE DEFICIT AND FOCUS ON THE DEBT!

I hope our president does something about our situation. I hope WE do something about it.


----------



## Tallonebball

Yeah I don't even know what the heck Elvis is talking about, the is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY any president in this day and age can get rid of the debt to US is in today. 
Clinton is considered a great president, besides the incident, and he still did pretty much nothing so relinquish the debt.
And why is it Obama's job to get americans out of debt?? Its the Americans that need to stop doing things that get them into debt!!
Elvis you need to explain what you even mean because your not making any sense nor are you backing up anything you say with anything plausible.


----------



## elvis332

Tallonebball said:


> Yeah I don't even know what the heck Elvis is talking about, the is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY any president in this day and age can get rid of the debt to US is in today.
> Clinton is considered a great president, besides the incident, and he still did pretty much nothing so relinquish the debt.
> And why is it Obama's job to get americans out of debt?? Its the Americans that need to stop doing things that get them into debt!!
> Elvis you need to explain what you even mean because your not making any sense nor are you backing up anything you say with anything plausible.


 umm if you reply to my posts and say what you think then i guess you know what im talking about. and yes a president can take a country out of there debt!!!but its pretty hard well the government which includes the president is suppost to help americans not get in to debts so the same thing its the presidents job and yes im making sense!and when i said israel can take us on.its doesnt mean you have to start talking about it!maybe its my opinion.u ever thought about that?????but yes they can!


----------



## elvis332

IAN said:


> Besides, what is this about Israel? They take us on? I mean, I don't think that's going to happen. We are or WERE at least supporting Israel.
> 
> I know someone from Israel and she said that the Israelis want to be like America.
> 
> Anyway, I read in SEVERAL places that Obama plans to cut the deficit in half. THAT'S NOT THE DEBT MIND YOU! The deficit is how much they add to the debt each year. I also read in those same sources, that its going to cost a lot to cut that deficit, which means that we will be deeper in debt. And costing money to cut the deficit doesn't make sense. The reason being is that he's trying to revive the economy at the same time.
> 
> TELL OBAMA TO FORGET ABOUT THE DEFICIT AND FOCUS ON THE DEBT!
> 
> I hope our president does something about our situation. I hope WE do something about it.


i know america supports israel in there plans etc.l....so no they will like never attack america.


well yea true.


----------



## Kurtfr0

obamaaa is crazyyyyyyyy


----------



## lohachata

elvis......you haven't the slightest clue about what you are saying...
you are talking about isreal taking on the US in a military sense..
while the isrealis are fierce fighters and certainly outfits like IMI have come up with some great innovations like the "cornershot" weapon that accurately shoots around corners ; they have only a minute fraction of the military might that the US has..
but almost all countries know that they could not defeat the US by military force..
this country will not fall by battle...she is almost defeated already..most of the major industries are no longer american owned..check all of those major corporations that seem so important to us..almost all are foreign owned..there are only 2 or 3 steel producers left that are US owned...and some of their facilities are closing..
when we lose the ability to make steel we lose the ability to build...and we lose the ability to make weapons to defend our soil...car manufacturers are foreign owned.GM is closing it's doors.(don't laugh..they warned us almost 2 years ago)almost all of everything we use is made in another country.production facilities here are being closed down at a record pace and moved out of the country.manufacturing is going to mexico,china and india...computer technology and engineering to india.
at the rate we are going ; in 25 years we will be the ones working for 50 cents an hour...and that would be for a semi skilled worker. office workers and executives won't be needed..their jobs will be done in another country..
try reading between the lines of the newspapers..pay close attention to what corporations are really saying....

yes.....the United States is indeed in trouble..


----------



## COM

^^If there are any newspapers left to read where you live. We are closing about one major daily every 2 to 3 weeks. The smaller markets are losing something like one media outlet every single day.

As for steel and other industrial capacity, a lot of it is becoming foreign owned. In a time fo crisis, those plants could easily be seized and forced to produce for the government / military. One thing that the US has on its side is that we have a good stockpile of the resources needed to make metals: iron ore and coal for steel, bauxite for alumni, and tons of junk to scrap and make recycled metals. We lack rubber because we can't grow it in our climate.


----------



## IAN

lohachata said:


> yes.....the United States is indeed in trouble..


I'm glad you brought up the steel again. (just letting you know I read it)

Thank you for your educated opinion and for procuring the facts.

You are so sadly right about the US almost defeated already.

And thank you COM for the additional info.

Hey elvis, please just learn from what others are telling you, and back up your reasonings so others can understand (me) what you're saying (Baby_Baby is right).

I just don't know what to think. The looming destruction of my country--as I know it-- saddens me.

What can we American citizens, do?


----------



## Toshogu

I reload my own ammo. Currently working on building my arsenal. I have Remmington 700 30-06. Marlin .22lr. I'm looking to purchase a decent pump action and a pistol in 9mil. and also a revolver in 9mil.

Nice thing about owning a 30-06 is that you have access to alot of the surplus ammunition that was made during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam via the internet. can't use the casings, powder, or the primer cause they are completly past thier due date, but the bullet itself never goes bad. I've got near 10,000 AP bullets sitting in a storage bin. Will I ever load em? yeah, just enough to get the load worked up. After that i'm just gonna sit on em. I hope to god they never need to be used or distributed.

Eh.. my problem with the past 24yrs. is that during my lifetime alot of America's manufacturing capabilities and hvy industry have gone over seas. That's not a good thing for National Security. One big reason why we were able to win WWII was our obscene ability to quickly retool existing factories and just pump out war materials like no ones business.
Will we be able to do it now? No. Best case scenario is that our armed forces hold out for how ever long it takes for us to ramp up production to a lvl sufficient enough to beat back what ever enemy comes our way.
I blame our current situation squarly on the shoulders of the policy makers and voters that put them there that have allowed this "Free Market Situation". Personally if I had my way I'd make it law that says "If your profits are x% from America, then your company needs to have x% manufacturing (if you make stuff), and x% employees in America"

Also Universal Healthcare, let's do it. No reason why not. So we pay alittle more out of pocket to ensure that every American has access to healthcare. It's the right thing to do + the benifts out way the cons. here is a list of benifits I see

1.) All children in America will have healthcare
2.) All women in America will have healthcare
3.) All men in America will have healthcare

Now here is where I see a big benifit is in the "mentally unstable" area You got alot of mentally unstable homeless people out there that clog the heck out of our jail system. It's usually a never ending cycle with them too, they get in jail, they get treated, serve thier sentance, get out, have no support or access to medication, go bat**************** crazy, terrorize or kill someone, go back to jail. wash rinse repeat. With universal healthcare they will have access to support and medication once they leave jail greatly increasing thier chances of re-entering society and being productive members.

That and I believe in these immortal words. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Universal Healthcare falls under the right to life, and the pursuit of happiness. Cause as the situation stands right now, people that are poor, or destitute, or just have a ****************ty employer, are being denied these basic of all rights.

Also with all this discussion of stuff I think you guys forgotten the one great thing M.A.D. It's messed up but personally I think it's vital even more than ever that America continues to produce and maintain it's nuclear arsenal. Imo if this country falls because some other country manages to defeat us I personally would want to make sure this planet burns, cause world without a declaration of independance, or a constitution of the usa is world that doesn't deserve to exist.

I am not a Republican.
I am not a Democrat.
I am an American Imperialist.
"One world, under god, indivisable, with justice for all"


----------



## elvis332

Baby_Baby said:


> Just because someone replies to your posts doesn't mean that they have a 100% guaranteed, bulletproof and completely sure idea of what you're trying to get across.
> 
> And if anyone in this thread is not supposed to talk about subjects that you're bringing to the table then maybe this side of the internet just isn't the best place for you to be hanging around. People kinda sorta like to share their opinions in open discussion threads. Just like you have your opinion, other people have theirs. You don't have to agree with them and they are in now way obligated to side with you.


yea i know what i say. its what i think is right


----------



## elvis332

lohachata said:


> elvis......you haven't the slightest clue about what you are saying...
> you are talking about isreal taking on the US in a military sense..
> while the isrealis are fierce fighters and certainly outfits like IMI have come up with some great innovations like the "cornershot" weapon that accurately shoots around corners ; they have only a minute fraction of the military might that the US has..
> but almost all countries know that they could not defeat the US by military force..
> this country will not fall by battle...she is almost defeated already..most of the major industries are no longer american owned..check all of those major corporations that seem so important to us..almost all are foreign owned..there are only 2 or 3 steel producers left that are US owned...and some of their facilities are closing..
> when we lose the ability to make steel we lose the ability to build...and we lose the ability to make weapons to defend our soil...car manufacturers are foreign owned.GM is closing it's doors.(don't laugh..they warned us almost 2 years ago)almost all of everything we use is made in another country.production facilities here are being closed down at a record pace and moved out of the country.manufacturing is going to mexico,china and india...computer technology and engineering to india.
> at the rate we are going ; in 25 years we will be the ones working for 50 cents an hour...and that would be for a semi skilled worker. office workers and executives won't be needed..their jobs will be done in another country..
> try reading between the lines of the newspapers..pay close attention to what corporations are really saying....
> 
> yes.....the United States is indeed in trouble..


yes i do know what im saying!!and i didnt want this to get like this all i said was "Israel cant take us on "then other people started saying things so i did too!


----------



## elvis332

IAN said:


> I'm glad you brought up the steel again. (just letting you know I read it)
> 
> Thank you for your educated opinion and for procuring the facts.
> 
> You are so sadly right about the US almost defeated already.
> 
> And thank you COM for the additional info.
> 
> Hey elvis, please just learn from what others are telling you, and back up your reasonings so others can understand (me) what you're saying (Baby_Baby is right).
> 
> I just don't know what to think. The looming destruction of my country--as I know it-- saddens me.
> 
> What can we American citizens, do?


umm helloooooo im not looking for facts this is my own opinion!


----------



## elvis332

Toshogu said:


> I reload my own ammo. Currently working on building my arsenal. I have Remmington 700 30-06. Marlin .22lr. I'm looking to purchase a decent pump action and a pistol in 9mil. and also a revolver in 9mil.
> 
> Nice thing about owning a 30-06 is that you have access to alot of the surplus ammunition that was made during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam via the internet. can't use the casings, powder, or the primer cause they are completly past thier due date, but the bullet itself never goes bad. I've got near 10,000 AP bullets sitting in a storage bin. Will I ever load em? yeah, just enough to get the load worked up. After that i'm just gonna sit on em. I hope to god they never need to be used or distributed.
> 
> Eh.. my problem with the past 24yrs. is that during my lifetime alot of America's manufacturing capabilities and hvy industry have gone over seas. That's not a good thing for National Security. One big reason why we were able to win WWII was our obscene ability to quickly retool existing factories and just pump out war materials like no ones business.
> Will we be able to do it now? No. Best case scenario is that our armed forces hold out for how ever long it takes for us to ramp up production to a lvl sufficient enough to beat back what ever enemy comes our way.
> I blame our current situation squarly on the shoulders of the policy makers and voters that put them there that have allowed this "Free Market Situation". Personally if I had my way I'd make it law that says "If your profits are x% from America, then your company needs to have x% manufacturing (if you make stuff), and x% employees in America"
> 
> Also Universal Healthcare, let's do it. No reason why not. So we pay alittle more out of pocket to ensure that every American has access to healthcare. It's the right thing to do + the benifts out way the cons. here is a list of benifits I see
> 
> 1.) All children in America will have healthcare
> 2.) All women in America will have healthcare
> 3.) All men in America will have healthcare
> 
> Now here is where I see a big benifit is in the "mentally unstable" area You got alot of mentally unstable homeless people out there that clog the heck out of our jail system. It's usually a never ending cycle with them too, they get in jail, they get treated, serve thier sentance, get out, have no support or access to medication, go bat**************** crazy, terrorize or kill someone, go back to jail. wash rinse repeat. With universal healthcare they will have access to support and medication once they leave jail greatly increasing thier chances of re-entering society and being productive members.
> 
> That and I believe in these immortal words. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Universal Healthcare falls under the right to life, and the pursuit of happiness. Cause as the situation stands right now, people that are poor, or destitute, or just have a ****************ty employer, are being denied these basic of all rights.
> 
> Also with all this discussion of stuff I think you guys forgotten the one great thing M.A.D. It's messed up but personally I think it's vital even more than ever that America continues to produce and maintain it's nuclear arsenal. Imo if this country falls because some other country manages to defeat us I personally would want to make sure this planet burns, cause world without a declaration of independance, or a constitution of the usa is world that doesn't deserve to exist.
> 
> I am not a Republican.
> I am not a Democrat.
> I am an American Imperialist.
> "One world, under god, indivisable, with justice for all"



well said.


----------



## IAN

elvis332 said:


> umm helloooooo im not looking for facts this is my own opinion!


It really helps to back up your opinion. It helps you to form your opinion, and others to understand it.


----------



## Guest

dont underestimate the mosad!


----------



## IAN

Toshogu said:


> ..."One world, under god, indivisable, with justice for all"



I don't think that's going to happen...for obvious reasons. And I also don't agree that the world should be destroyed if the USA goes.

But the Idea of being prepare for hard times is great! 

So...what about food. We may need to have a supply of food and water in case.

Anyone?


----------



## IAN

Zakk said:


> dont underestimate the mosad!


What is the mosad?

I should follow my own advise too, but sometimes its hard when it truly is a matter of opinion.


----------



## Ghost Knife

COM said:


> ^^If there are any newspapers left to read where you live. We are closing about one major daily every 2 to 3 weeks. The smaller markets are losing something like one media outlet every single day.
> 
> As for steel and other industrial capacity, a lot of it is becoming foreign owned. In a time fo crisis, those plants could easily be seized and forced to produce for the government / military. One thing that the US has on its side is that we have a good stockpile of the resources needed to make metals: iron ore and coal for steel, bauxite for alumni, and tons of junk to scrap and make recycled metals. We lack rubber because we can't grow it in our climate.


Another resource we are short on is chromium. It's used in just about all our military aircraft.


----------



## elvis332

IAN said:


> It really helps to back up your opinion. It helps you to form your opinion, and others to understand it.


i did back it up.


----------



## Toshogu

IAN said:


> What is the mosad?


A group of men and women that make the CIA and KGB look like a bunch of boy scouts.


----------



## Toshogu

IAN said:


> I don't think that's going to happen...for obvious reasons. And I also don't agree that the world should be destroyed if the USA goes.
> 
> But the Idea of being prepare for hard times is great!
> 
> So...what about food. We may need to have a supply of food and water in case.
> 
> Anyone?


Well the whole "one world, one god, indivisable, with justice for all" can be taken more as it really doesn't have to be "America" but more as i would prefer it to be America. So long as at some point in time we have a unified world goverment I will be very happy. Cause ultimatly I want to see two things. 

1.) A unified concrete code of justice that applies to all beings on the planet with no bias, and differentiation from country to country. If you steal in US it should be same punishment as stealing in Egypt. Make it all standardized.
2.) Universal minimum wage. EVERYONE who works, works for a mandated minimum wage. so if it's set to say $5 an hour, well guess what thats the bare minimum you have to pay a person for a fair days work. Can you imagine what would happen if China had to pay $5 minimum wage just like everyone else in the world would have to? Suddenly american corporations wouldn't be scrambling to ship production jobs overseas, we'd be just as competitive because 1.) americans wouldn't ever settle for minimum wage + we always like benifites. 2.) shipping costs would be cheap cause it's already here. while china 1.) would pay it's workers bare minimum no benifits, but would be offset by the shipping costs.

As it stands now the only reason why china gets to do with what it does is because as far as I'm concerned they are using slave labor. I did alot of number crunching when I was trying to find a producer of portholes for sailboats. No matter how I did the math I was saving near 175% by having a chinese foundery make my portholes and ship overseas vs. having it produced in america. And the only reason why china can do that is they pay thier people crud.

As for food and water, there is always soilentgreen.

Seriously tho I'm prepared for the "big one" down here in Southern cali. Good old K rations, a couple MRE's if the fish tank manages to miraculously survive i've got 80gals... but more like 10-20gal cause of sloshing + fish can be eaten. Also there is a swimming pool in the apartment so long as it doesn't drain and crack and we ration we can prolly make it last a week. and don't forget waterheaters. If you manage to shut the water off quickly you've got about 80-150gals of potable water. + I have atleast 2-4 big sparklets bottles on hand at all times.

I've done the math and with only he supplies I have I can keep a family of 3 adults and 3 children alive comfortably for 2 1/2 weeks, or alive miserably for about 1 and a half months. After the Bush Administrations CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT response to Hurricane Katrina, I reworked my emergency planning to not include any goverment response. Even tho' I know OBAMA and Scwartzenager would do everything in thier power to get aid immediatly, I'm not going to leave anything to chance.

GOD CURSE BUSH JR. his administration dropped the ball, not once, but twice!!! 911 and Katrina. Both had plenty of forewarning, both times the goverment dropped the ball on his watch. Especially Katrina. I'VE seen better response from third world countries in Africa to natural disaster on that lvl than what i saw from the bush administration during that crisis. It's his administration that made me lose faith in goverments ability to respond swiftly to domestic crisis.

My rifles I go hunting with and target shooting with. The only reason why i'm picking up a shotgun and a pistol is for the just in case 1.) the big one hits 2.) a major class riot errupts in Los Angeles and you know those two will eventually happen. It's not a question of if they will happen, but only when.

I could go on for ages why Bush/Cheney did more to damage and destroy America than any foriegn power could ever have. Both were just the penultimate in corporate stooges. Look at campain contributions, look at the corporate ties they had before they took office, look at what corporations made out the best, look at all the restriction and limitations they managed to either weaken or get rid of during thier 8yrs.

And best yet we got a new President Obama who's only been in office for 7months now, and we got people already saying he's not doing things right!?!? The poor schlub has got 8yrs of mismanagement to undo, give the guy a break and back his play. If he says let's do this, let's get behind his ass and do it. What's the worst that can happen? Is it better to just sit with our thumbs up our asses and maintain the status quo? No! Here is another great quote "We do things not because they are easy. But because they are hard" I think it was kenedy.


----------



## IAN

Ahh. I see where you can get the water from now!

But the food. Hmm. I guess that's one thing you have to store up on.


----------



## Toshogu

IAN said:


> Ahh. I see where you can get the water from now!
> 
> But the food. Hmm. I guess that's one thing you have to store up on.


Water and food are relativly easy to get in a city enviroment. Plenty of water heaters to raid and swimming pools. Food is just a rock throw away. 

But it's better to have your own emergency stores either way, that way when you scavange resources you can either stretch out your own supply, or better yet help those that weren't as well prepared.

Oh and space blankets!!! stock up on those, they are pretty darn cheap I bought a box of 60 for $100 dollars. They can be used as 1.) emergency blanket/shelter 2.) shade 3.) shiny thing to make you visible to people in airplanes or helicopters 4.) solar waterstills 5.) Poncho 6.) water storage. + they fold up enough to be kept in a wallet and are extremly light weight. And at that price you can keep 20 for your own purposes, and distribute the rest to people you come across that need an emergency shelter/blanket thingy.


----------



## Toshogu

America lost it's way when the majority citizenry put thier own personal interests before that of thier fellow man. Those people who call themselves Christian, Jewish, and Muslim and oppose this movement for Universal Healthcare in this country. Heed the words of our Lord. Search your hearts and support the cause of the righteous!!!

"And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks. 

Jer. 22:16 "Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the LORD.

Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

*Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?" *

Am I saying pauper ourselfs to help the poor? no. All I am saying is we are the GREATEST, RICHEST, NATION that has ever graced the surface of this world, and yet Why? Why can we not provide the MOST BASIC of human rights to all our citizenry? The right to life, and the right to pursue happiness. If you can not afford healthcare, or denied by the insurance companies because of a preexisting condition, or just dumped by em cause they don't want to pay. And we the ones that are better off and sit idly by as our fellow Americans die or suffer... Who does that make us? What does that make us? And to those that say "we can't afford it" thats a BS excuse. Just come out and say what is in your heart "I don't want to sacrifice! I don't want to give up some of the luxuries I enjoy, to give comfort to those that suffer".


----------



## elvis332

Toshogu said:


> America lost it's way when the majority citizenry put thier own personal interests before that of thier fellow man. Those people who call themselves Christian, Jewish, and Muslim and oppose this movement for Universal Healthcare in this country. Heed the words of our Lord. Search your hearts and support the cause of the righteous!!!
> 
> "And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
> 
> Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.
> 
> Jer. 22:16 "Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the LORD.
> 
> Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."
> 
> *Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?" *
> 
> Am I saying pauper ourselfs to help the poor? no. All I am saying is we are the GREATEST, RICHEST, NATION that has ever graced the surface of this world, and yet Why? Why can we not provide the MOST BASIC of human rights to all our citizenry? The right to life, and the right to pursue happiness. If you can not afford healthcare, or denied by the insurance companies because of a preexisting condition, or just dumped by em cause they don't want to pay. And we the ones that are better off and sit idly by as our fellow Americans die or suffer... Who does that make us? What does that make us? And to those that say "we can't afford it" thats a BS excuse. Just come out and say what is in your heart "I don't want to sacrifice! I don't want to give up some of the luxuries I enjoy, to give comfort to those that suffer".


Your totally right on that!!!now that you have brought up God.thats the reason i say israel can defeat any nation in its way cuz there Gods chosen people and God alway helps them and there nation will never fall.


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## Toshogu

???
eh... okay???

Isreal and USA would never fight each other in the first place, and second two nuc's would leave that country a giant radioactive hole. They don't have missles that can reach us.


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## elvis332

i know they wouldnt fight


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## shev

lol what is going on in this thread.



elvis332 said:


> Your totally right on that!!!now that you have brought up God.thats the reason i say israel can defeat any nation in its way cuz there Gods chosen people and God alway helps them and there nation will never fall.


Because God has done such a good job so far for them? If anything, they're the US's chosen people, seeing as how we nearly exclusively fund their entire military. 



> Well the whole "one world, one god, indivisable, with justice for all" can be taken more as it really doesn't have to be "America" but more as i would prefer it to be America. So long as at some point in time we have a unified world goverment I will be very happy.


If there was ever a world government, it'd pretty much have to be completely secular with no mention or hint of any religion. What if that state sponsored god happened to be Allah? You wouldn't stand for that for a second.



> 2.) Universal minimum wage. EVERYONE who works, works for a mandated minimum wage. so if it's set to say $5 an hour, well guess what thats the bare minimum you have to pay a person for a fair days work. Can you imagine what would happen if China had to pay $5 minimum wage just like everyone else in the world would have to?


Yes, they'd lose their competitive advantage in labor and millions, if not billions, would starve. That's how economics works, countries have differing advantages. Some have natural resources they can use, and some have labor to help process those resources. Who would win with a universal minimum wage? Fewer people than the amount of losers, which would be the hordes of suddenly jobless cheap labor. Our current system may not be the most fair system, but it is the most efficient and productive. That "crud", as you call it, that they pay the chinese is enough to sustain a lot of people, and taking that away from them wouldnt make very many friends.

Back to the subject of universal health care...

I'll just ask a few questions for those against it:

Are you for food stamps? No? Well would you be for grocery stores being forced to feed needy people? Should hospitals be able to turn people down for emergency health care if they think they cant afford it?

Well that's how our current system works. Hospitals can't turn people down for emergency care even if they can't afford it, footing the bill unfairly on the hospitals.

It's funny, I actually see a lot of people that were all for the wasteful spending on the needless killing in Iraq are now violently opposed to spending money on saving our own people's lives.


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## Toshogu

Seperation of Church and State is a fundamental part of any good consitution. Without it you become like Iran.


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## Toshogu

shev said:


> Back to the subject of universal health care...
> 
> I'll just ask a few questions for those against it:
> 
> Are you for food stamps? No? Well would you be for grocery stores being forced to feed needy people? Should hospitals be able to turn people down for emergency health care if they think they cant afford it?
> 
> Well that's how our current system works. Hospitals can't turn people down for emergency care even if they can't afford it, footing the bill unfairly on the hospitals.
> 
> It's funny, I actually see a lot of people that were all for the wasteful spending on the needless killing in Iraq are now violently opposed to spending money on saving our own people's lives.


That's what foodstamps are for. They feed the needy. 

Thank god hospitals can't turn down emergency care.

Get rid of those two things and I swear I will find a nice little bunker in the middle of nowhere, spreading dissent and waiting for the right time help to over throw the government.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."


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## elvis332

Nice arguing with you all


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## mesovortex

Toshogu said:


> Well the whole "one world, one god, indivisable, with justice for all" can be taken more as it really doesn't have to be "America" but more as i would prefer it to be America. So long as at some point in time we have a unified world goverment I will be very happy. Cause ultimatly I want to see two things.
> 
> 1.) A unified concrete code of justice that applies to all beings on the planet with no bias, and differentiation from country to country. If you steal in US it should be same punishment as stealing in Egypt. Make it all standardized.
> 2.) Universal minimum wage. EVERYONE who works, works for a mandated minimum wage. so if it's set to say $5 an hour, well guess what thats the bare minimum you have to pay a person for a fair days work. Can you imagine what would happen if China had to pay $5 minimum wage just like everyone else in the world would have to? Suddenly american corporations wouldn't be scrambling to ship production jobs overseas, we'd be just as competitive because 1.) americans wouldn't ever settle for minimum wage + we always like benifites. 2.) shipping costs would be cheap cause it's already here. while china 1.) would pay it's workers bare minimum no benifits, but would be offset by the shipping costs.
> 
> As it stands now the only reason why china gets to do with what it does is because as far as I'm concerned they are using slave labor. I did alot of number crunching when I was trying to find a producer of portholes for sailboats. No matter how I did the math I was saving near 175% by having a chinese foundery make my portholes and ship overseas vs. having it produced in america. And the only reason why china can do that is they pay thier people crud.
> 
> As for food and water, there is always soilentgreen.
> 
> Seriously tho I'm prepared for the "big one" down here in Southern cali. Good old K rations, a couple MRE's if the fish tank manages to miraculously survive i've got 80gals... but more like 10-20gal cause of sloshing + fish can be eaten. Also there is a swimming pool in the apartment so long as it doesn't drain and crack and we ration we can prolly make it last a week. and don't forget waterheaters. If you manage to shut the water off quickly you've got about 80-150gals of potable water. + I have atleast 2-4 big sparklets bottles on hand at all times.
> 
> I've done the math and with only he supplies I have I can keep a family of 3 adults and 3 children alive comfortably for 2 1/2 weeks, or alive miserably for about 1 and a half months. After the Bush Administrations CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT response to Hurricane Katrina, I reworked my emergency planning to not include any goverment response. Even tho' I know OBAMA and Scwartzenager would do everything in thier power to get aid immediatly, I'm not going to leave anything to chance.
> 
> GOD CURSE BUSH JR. his administration dropped the ball, not once, but twice!!! 911 and Katrina. Both had plenty of forewarning, both times the goverment dropped the ball on his watch. Especially Katrina. I'VE seen better response from third world countries in Africa to natural disaster on that lvl than what i saw from the bush administration during that crisis. It's his administration that made me lose faith in goverments ability to respond swiftly to domestic crisis.
> 
> My rifles I go hunting with and target shooting with. The only reason why i'm picking up a shotgun and a pistol is for the just in case 1.) the big one hits 2.) a major class riot errupts in Los Angeles and you know those two will eventually happen. It's not a question of if they will happen, but only when.
> 
> I could go on for ages why Bush/Cheney did more to damage and destroy America than any foriegn power could ever have. Both were just the penultimate in corporate stooges. Look at campain contributions, look at the corporate ties they had before they took office, look at what corporations made out the best, look at all the restriction and limitations they managed to either weaken or get rid of during thier 8yrs.
> 
> And best yet we got a new President Obama who's only been in office for 7months now, and we got people already saying he's not doing things right!?!? The poor schlub has got 8yrs of mismanagement to undo, give the guy a break and back his play. If he says let's do this, let's get behind his ass and do it. What's the worst that can happen? Is it better to just sit with our thumbs up our asses and maintain the status quo? No! Here is another great quote "We do things not because they are easy. But because they are hard" I think it was kenedy.


To the Obama comment, I don't think he is walking down the right path in terms of economic policy. I don't like the way he is pushing for his health care plan right now. He rise tariff on tire import from China just because he is trying to secure the union workers role but IMO this is hurting U.S. economy in the long run. Also he is so busy pushing for his health care plan now that he did not focus on the economic problem on hand. More regulation need to put in place for the people in Wall Street but so far I haven't see any changes. In fact, the banks are behaving the way it is just like before. 

Have to agree that Bush years are pretty much horrible. War in Iraq really take a toll on image of America. 

One thing that I really concern right now is the possibility of severe inflation in U.S. The Fed pumped so much money into the banking system but good thing is those new money isn't out in the circulation just yet. However, if those excess reserve of the banks make its way out to the circulation, we really are in deep trouble. The Fed is doing something never done before and if something goes wrong, we are screwed.


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## Toshogu

Hope you been reading the newspapers and seeing the rumblings the Feds have been making at the banks. Looks to me bankers are going to get smacked the hell down with regulations. It's a long time and coming for them. We need to work hard to make sure that corporate loses its deathgrip on our legislature. Right now as it stands, those who have the money, get the influence. Hell, corporate lobbiests employed *prostitutes* to corrupt our legislature here in California.

And if you think for one minute that the Republican Party is going to smack down corporate you're deluding yourself. You're thinking of the Republican party of Teddy Rossevelt. Ever since around the late 1900's the Republican party has pretty much been the toadies of Corporate America. If you ever watched "Blade Runner" and thought to yourself, gee wiz that looks like a great world to live in, keep voting Republican and I guarantee you that's what it's going to end up like. Megacorps that run our country, that have thier own "private security forces", big brother watching your every move. And a world that has only two classes, the poor, and the rich.

Democrats, unfortunatly are the only other winnable option we got. If you really want to put the hurting on Corporate America vote Green Party. You read the stuff they spout and I guarantee you if we got a decent minority/majority of em in house/senate they would tear into the shady BS that's been going on, like a terrier on a rat. Infact that's what I voted when I was stuck between choosing Bush or Gore. God that was a horrible choice "Bush the moron" vs "Gore the wet noodle".

Personally I would like to see an American Imperialist party. Big goverment that is there to make sure that the Economic war is won. One of the biggest blows to America has been the exporting of jobs to foreign countries by our own corporations (thanks to republican policies). First thing I would push for is a profit to jobs ratio. You do business in America and x% of profit comes from here, then x% of your workers must be employed in this country. Otherwise you get hit with a fine/penalty worth the difference out of your net profits, or you get blackballed. Also need a flat tax across the board, no dodging everyone pays x% poor, middle, rich.

And the best part is, people will cry, people will whine, but the world can't afford not to do business with us. China will throw a fit, but guess what they get to uppity, just cut off trade with em, Europe, India, Russia, Africa especially them, will happilly fill the void. Also this policy would force the rest of the world to take up this same policy and eventually we'll see everything balance out. Besides, what can China do at worst? Declare war? Cut off thier exports? They need us more than we need them. The possibility of war with China is nill. They know if they tried they would get absolutly smashed, and the last bastion of the Communist party will be ground underneith our jackboots.

The end game for me is one planet, one government (hopefully styled after the American Constitution and Bill of Rights, but I'll settle for Parlimentary).

BTW, I also think it's high time we made a concerted effort to get 3 more stars on our flag. It's high time we made Puerto Rico, Guatamala, and Somoan America, official states. Basically start pouring money into thier infrastructure and get em really dependent on the idea of America. Then make em vote if they want in. If we show em what it really is like to be a real citizen of the USA and the true benifits (economic/social) I'm sure they'll vote correctly. If they decided to vote against, pull all funding and aid out, but still keep em territories for like 10yrs. And then build em up again with funding. Wash rinse repeat untill they want to become official states.

Vae Victus.


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## mesovortex

The big problem they should have hammer down the regulation a few months ago. Right now maybe too late to put restriction. Good part of the recent earning of the banks are coming from derivative and other risky financial product. Sounds familiar right? I don't think they will really hand down very strict regulation to banks since most of the politicians either Dem or GOP in Washington are in bed with people in Wall Street. They already moved on and enjoying this economic "recovery".

As you said what can China do at worst? Selling our bonds. The U.S. dollar will drop like a rock and make the recent problem look like nothing. It will be a lose-lose situation and we will get it hard. Forget about other countries in the rest of the world because the whole world's economy will be a huge train wreck.

The whole Dem vs. GOP thing was just silly because in the end both parties will do the same thing and they both are the one that screw up America in the first place. That's why I don't vote for either of those parties. We need new people to bring changes to U.S. I do hope I am wrong about Obama but so far I see his policy isn't that good to U.S. and world economy. 

I do really agree with you though on the lobbyist issue. That's exact why the way things are today. Corporates and government combine into one super power is never a good thing.


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## Toshogu

Sorry, but you can rest alot of the blame for the last 20yrs squarly on the republican party.


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## BV77

Oh, and I suppose Obama is doing a bang up job??? rofl How much of our taxpayer dollars were wasted flying Michele in AF 2 and then him in AF 1 ? Obama's just livin' large on our dollars.


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## Fishfirst

Wow... lots of arguements here... 8 years under bush was way better than 8 months under obama. 

1. Obama has single handedly increased our debt to numbers never even talked about before. 
2. Obama has single handedly increased the terror threat to this country by taking away the shield, waiting in afghanistan, putting a stop to so called torture (can't torture people who want to kill us but he's all in favor of killing innocent babies), not taking a stand on Iran, and promising to close Gitmo.
3. Obama has broken promise after promise and will break his promise of not raising taxes on anyone making under a quarter million with several of his proposed programs: Cap and Trade, health care reform, etc.
4. Obama has wasted billions of tax payers money in just 8 months. Whether it be from his lavish vacations or going to try for a bid for the olympics, to the stimulis that isn't working and the bailouts that are failing (Saturn, AIG, etc)

I'm not saying that the current GOP is the answer. I think they need to be extremely conservative to get this country back on track... and as for corporations and regulation... CONSUMERS are the regulators... vote with your dollar not government regulation.


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## COM

Let me first say that I voted for Obama very reluctantly b/c the candidate I supported got knocked out (Ron Paul)



Fishfirst said:


> Wow... lots of arguements here... 8 years under bush was way better than 8 months under obama.
> 
> 1. Obama has single handedly increased our debt to numbers never even talked about before.
> 2. Obama has single handedly increased the terror threat to this country by taking away the shield, waiting in afghanistan, putting a stop to so called torture (can't torture people who want to kill us but he's all in favor of killing innocent babies), not taking a stand on Iran, and promising to close Gitmo.


None of these things have happened.



Fishfirst said:


> 3. Obama has broken promise after promise and will break his promise of not raising taxes on anyone making under a quarter million with several of his proposed programs: Cap and Trade, health care reform, etc.


So far the legislation has been deficit neutral.


Fishfirst said:


> 4. Obama has wasted billions of tax payers money in just 8 months. Whether it be from his lavish vacations or going to try for a bid for the olympics, to the stimulis that isn't working and the bailouts that are failing (Saturn, AIG, etc)


I hope that you are aware the Bush was on 'vacation' most of the time...



Fishfirst said:


> 3. I'm not saying that the current GOP is the answer. I think they need to be extremely conservative to get this country back on track... and as for corporations and regulation... CONSUMERS are the regulators... vote with your dollar not government regulation.


Totally agree.


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## Toshogu

Fishfirst said:


> 2. Obama has single handedly increased the terror threat to this country by taking away the shield, waiting in afghanistan, putting a stop to so called torture (can't torture people who want to kill us but he's all in favor of killing innocent babies), not taking a stand on Iran, and promising to close Gitmo.


I haven't seen a single attack so far. Also to quote a great man, "People who are willing to give up alittle of thier freedoms for a little security deserve to have none.".

Just another right wing religious nut job spouting off at the mouth. Problem with you is your road leads down the same path Iran has gone down. This country has been based on a very fundamental truth, that all men are created equal. Last time I checked it's damned illegal to torture an American citizen. So guess what, you can't torture no one. As for the baby killing comment, go push your religion on someone else buddy.

Problem we have right now is trying to undo the horrible mess the Bush administration put us in. The republican party screwed the pooch the past 8yrs, they screwed it so bad that we all voted Democrat this time around. And now that the dems are in power all we got is a bunch of talking heads on tv and radio spouting sourgrapes. 8yrs. of negligent mismanagement is not fixed in 8months.


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## Fishfirst

Toshogu said:


> I haven't seen a single attack so far. Also to quote a great man, "People who are willing to give up alittle of thier freedoms for a little security deserve to have none.".
> 
> Just another right wing religious nut job spouting off at the mouth. Problem with you is your road leads down the same path Iran has gone down. This country has been based on a very fundamental truth, that all men are created equal. Last time I checked it's damned illegal to torture an American citizen. So guess what, you can't torture no one. As for the baby killing comment, go push your religion on someone else buddy.
> 
> Problem we have right now is trying to undo the horrible mess the Bush administration put us in. The republican party screwed the pooch the past 8yrs, they screwed it so bad that we all voted Democrat this time around. And now that the dems are in power all we got is a bunch of talking heads on tv and radio spouting sourgrapes. 8yrs. of negligent mismanagement is not fixed in 8months.


So you are saying that he hasn't increased the terror threat? Yes we have not been attacked... but with Iran and Korea stepping up their nuke developement and a possible prosecution of our intellegence agency, (and the crippleing effect that will take place on that agency) I believe as well as many others an attack is immenent.

I am not overly religious... I just find it IRONIC that a man can support abortion and killing innocent babies, but not torture (even though waterboarding may or may not be torture) on people who genuinely are evil and want to kill every single one of us. Seems some morals have been twisted in his head.

8 years of neglect and mismanagement can't be fixed in 8 months you are correct. But you can NOT say that we are on the road to recovery... infact it is evident that we are going to have 4 more years of mismanagement (Bush spent a lot, Obama is going to spend alot more than him). This


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## mesovortex

Toshogu said:


> Sorry, but you can rest alot of the blame for the last 20yrs squarly on the republican party.





> Problem we have right now is trying to undo the horrible mess the Bush administration put us in. The republican party screwed the pooch the past 8yrs, they screwed it so bad that we all voted Democrat this time around. And now that the dems are in power all we got is a bunch of talking heads on tv and radio spouting sourgrapes. 8yrs. of negligent mismanagement is not fixed in 8months.


BOTH Dems and GOPs are the root of the problem and most of the people in office now need to be vote out of there. I don't see it is all GOP's problem. Dems are part of the problem too and take a look in the real world instead of reading those Democrat's talking point.



> 8 years of neglect and mismanagement can't be fixed in 8 months you are correct. But you can NOT say that we are on the road to recovery


We won't recover for a good amount of time. I don't see unemployment rate will go down much in 2-3 years. In fact, unemployment rate is continue to going up and the new number of 9.8% is after they changed the way they calculate for the number. If you calculate the way it was in 1930s, we would be in the 17-18% range. A "Lost Decade" like in Japan in 90's is not out of question.


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## mesovortex

COM said:


> Let me first say that I voted for Obama very reluctantly b/c the candidate I supported got knocked out (Ron Paul)


lol, my friend voted for Obama for the same reason. I just didn't vote because Ron Paul got knocked out. I think if the economic problem emerge a year earlier, he would have had a chance to get nomination.


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## Toshogu

Fishfirst said:


> So you are saying that he hasn't increased the terror threat? Yes we have not been attacked... but with Iran and Korea stepping up their nuke developement and a possible prosecution of our intellegence agency, (and the crippleing effect that will take place on that agency) I believe as well as many others an attack is immenent.


Well guess what, Bush had more than ample warning and time to nip that problem in the bud while he was in power but he spent his time at neverland ranch rather than deal with the problems facing this country. As for prosecuting the CIA for illegal acts well guess what another problem that occurred because of the Bush administration playing it so fast and loose with Constitution of America. No one would need prosecution if they didn't break the law in the first place. Personally I would like to see an extreme purging of the CIA for the bull**************** they pulled. We don't need people that sink to the level of SS and the Ghestapo. "Just following orders" is never an excuse.



> I am not overly religious... I just find it IRONIC that a man can support abortion and killing innocent babies, but not torture (even though waterboarding may or may not be torture) on people who genuinely are evil and want to kill every single one of us. Seems some morals have been twisted in his head.


I do not support late term abortions unless it is nessessary to save the mother. i have no problem with early term abortions up to the point where it becomes a fetus. Before it is scientifically called a fetus it's just a mass of tissue with no brain that is completly dependent on the woman to continue. It's an issue of right to privacy, the right of choice, and freedom of religion. You want to take those rights away from your fellow citizen in the name of your "Beliefs" cause that is all the anti abortion movement is, a belief, not supported by any scientific basis. They try to gussy it up with science but when you scrutinize it just alittle bit it falls apart just like the creationist movement. Just another movement trying to blur the lines between church and state. I believe in my God, I believe everyone should be allowed to practice what religion they want. But the second someone tries to push thier religious beliefs on other people through our government, you're no friend of the American way of life. Just look at Iran and other religious states and that's what will happen to us if we go down that path. This also applies to the anti gay marriage.



> 8 years of neglect and mismanagement can't be fixed in 8 months you are correct. But you can NOT say that we are on the road to recovery... infact it is evident that we are going to have 4 more years of mismanagement (Bush spent a lot, Obama is going to spend alot more than him). This


Guess what, you have to spend a **************** ton of money to kick start an economy. Hoover damn wasn't built for free, the highway system wasn't free, Social security isn't free. The problem we have right now is the Republican party has so polarized this nation over the last 8 yrs. And the Democrats being Democrats are to fractious to pull a Republican and just bully through what needs to be done. I have heard very little solutions from the Republican party only screams of fear and hate mongering, and a resolute will to shoot down anything they can just because. Nothing will get fixed until people realize we just need to get behind Obama, and let him do what he thinks need to be done. Cause at this point anything is better than nothing.


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## Toshogu

And here is the thing about the whole terrorist attack that you are so worried about, it's all fear mongering. 1.) our boys are on top of it. 2.) if does happen we get a free ticket to smash the **************** out of anyone we like and NO ONE will blink an eye. They will all stare at thier feet and watch us level a country. And I will guarantee you if an attack occurs and it doesn't matter who pulls it off, we will blame it on Iran and smash em. Obama has shown already that he has no problem with letting our military do everything they need to do to protect even just one American Citizen. (have we forgot the pirate incident already?)

Just sit back, turn off your radio and TV, start reading alot of periodicals (newspapers) and suddenly it's not as bleak as your Right Wing Religious Conservative masters tell you it is. Just have to wake up and smell the stench and realize that time and time again the Republican Party has no interest in protecting the American people, only lining thier pockets, having power, and doing what is right for Corporate America.


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## Toshogu

mesovortex said:


> BOTH Dems and GOPs are the root of the problem and most of the people in office now need to be vote out of there. I don't see it is all GOP's problem. Dems are part of the problem too and take a look in the real world instead of reading those Democrat's talking point.


I call it how I see it, I don't use talking points. Like I've said before I am not a democrat, I am not a liberal, I am not Republican, or Communist. I am an American Imperialist.




> We won't recover for a good amount of time. I don't see unemployment rate will go down much in 2-3 years. In fact, unemployment rate is continue to going up and the new number of 9.8% is after they changed the way they calculate for the number. If you calculate the way it was in 1930s, we would be in the 17-18% range. A "Lost Decade" like in Japan in 90's is not out of question.


That's about how I see the situation too. If Obama does what he wants to do I see us bouncing back or lvling off around 2-3 yrs from now. If he can't get what he wants to get done because of the Republican party and the fracticious nature of the Democrats, then I see a lost decade also.

It's a matter of just letting the man work, right now as I see it he has his hands tied. That is soley due to the Republican party refusing to work with him, and the Democrats refusal to say screw the Republicans and push through partisan bills. Which I do agree with em, cause the idea of pushing something through with out input and revisions worked through with the Right scares me alittle.


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## Toshogu

"Those who are willing to give up alittle freedom, for alittle security. Deserve neither freedom, nor security." -Benjamin Franklin

We are Americans damnit, and I am not willing to betray the standards set down for us by the founding fathers in the "Declaration of Independence" "The Constitution" and the "Bill of Rights" just because of some feel scared. We persevere with our heads held high through the darkest of times, we support our fellow citizens in thier time of need as we do with the less fortunate in the world. When we give into our fears and look the other way, those that wish the downfall of this country win. We are Americans and we are the best hope this species has for a good future, and we must hold ourselfs to the high standards set for us to lead the way.


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## mesovortex

The Democrats can bully through anything they want now since they have super majority, but the opposition you were talking about is from Democrat themselves. 

I also don't think we should rush to pass everything right now. The stimulus package was pass too fast IMO to let AIG executives have a loophole for their massive bonus. Besides, government spending usually isn't the best tool to jump start the economy. Government spending could be cancel out by contraction of private sector spending. Expansionary Monetary policy seems to be a better way to go, but I still feeling a little uneasy of the possible outcome of the unprecedented action by the Fed. 

IMO I think America should shift its focus to its own problem now. The debt is going to come back and bite us in the future. We eventually have to pay for it. 

Great countries in the past like Rome, Spain, UK and such was a superpower like America was in their glory days. However, no superpower will hold on to their status forever and the same will apply to U.S. as well.


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## Toshogu

mesovortex said:


> The Democrats can bully through anything they want now since they have super majority, but the opposition you were talking about is from Democrat themselves.


Need to read what I type I agree



> I also don't think we should rush to pass everything right now. The stimulus package was pass too fast IMO to let AIG executives have a loophole for their massive bonus. Besides, government spending usually isn't the best tool to jump start the economy. Government spending could be cancel out by contraction of private sector spending. Expansionary Monetary policy seems to be a better way to go, but I still feeling a little uneasy of the possible outcome of the unprecedented action by the Fed.


The Fed unfortunatly has been sitting back and watching for way to long. It's time to lay down the Regulation hammer. Time to move foward and scourge this country of the corporate blight that has attached itself to our government.



> IMO I think America should shift its focus to its own problem now. The debt is going to come back and bite us in the future. We eventually have to pay for it.
> 
> Great countries in the past like Rome, Spain, UK and such was a superpower like America was in their glory days. However, no superpower will hold on to their status forever and the same will apply to U.S. as well.


Rome, Spain, and UK unfortunatly stagnated due to thier form of government. America thankfully can always and continously reinvent ourselfs. As for lasting forever Japan has been able to hold onto an uninterupted lineage since 660bc. Reinvention, and the abillity to keep alive core values are a secret to this success.


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## Plecostomus

> I call it how I see it, I don't use talking points. Like I've said before I am not a democrat, I am not a liberal, I am not Republican, or Communist. I am an American Imperialist.


You're an American Imperialist? Does that mean you want America to take over other countries?


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## mesovortex

The Fed = Federal Reserve had nothing to do with regulation. The Fed actually done a lot to tried to keep the Titanic from sinking but I don't know if those things will come back and bite up. SEC is the one to blame.

And no, I think modern American politic had drift away from what the founding fathers would like to see and decline in influence on world politic is already happening.


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## Fishfirst

Toshogu: I find your views hilarious. I cannot even begin to take you seriously. A few points that I'd like to revisit. 

"As for prosecuting the CIA for illegal acts well guess what another problem that occurred because of the Bush administration playing it so fast and loose with Constitution of America. " This has nothing to do with the constitution... well actually it does... life and liberty... that was what the CIA was protecting, and it was DEAMED LEGAL PERIOD. How can you commit a crime when a LAW against that crime was non-existant. And further more how is the CIA supposed to know what policies are going to change in the future? What if in the future it was illegal to live in hollywood CA but you had moved before that law was put into place... does that mean you go to jail? Of coarse not, especially on a thing as technical as interragation of non-US citizens.



"cause that is all the anti abortion movement is, a belief, not supported by any scientific basis" so you are not supportive of the fact that a zygote is a living thing which will become a person??? Where do you get your scientific research buddy? I would consider you to have flacid beliefs that would never hold up in the scientific community. Also I am not talking about the anti-abortion movement or anything of that nature... I just find it completely ass backward that we can kill a living thing, but not waterboard a person that knows when and where things are going to happen to US citizens.

"Guess what, you have to spend a **************** ton of money to kick start an economy" This is completely and utterly FALSE. The more money we spend the deeper the hole we dig. Spending money (especially money that isn't going to infastructure) is a complete waste.

"And here is the thing about the whole terrorist attack that you are so worried about, it's all fear mongering. 1.) our boys are on top of it. 2.) if does happen we get a free ticket to smash the **************** out of anyone we like and NO ONE will blink an eye." Our boys could be less on top of it when they get prosecuted... no one in the CIA will want to work for Obama. We don't get a free ticket ever. 

" Obama has shown already that he has no problem with letting our military do everything they need to do to protect even just one American Citizen. (have we forgot the pirate incident already?)" I try to forget, since it took days for Obama to do anything about it... really pathetic in my opinion. Not to mention his weak support for the protestors in Iran.


I too wish to get back to the constitution... because our founding fathers wanted government to stay OUT of peoples lives. If these bills are passed... the government will put its nose into what we eat and drink, our health, and how we live. This is completely against the constitution. The government should only be there to PROTECT the people... not USE the people.


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## COM

We're now ranked at #13 globally on human development:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Honestly I'm not sure where we have been historically but we can't be that high due to our systemic public health issues.

I always like to tell people that the United States is basically a third world country with the most amazing military in the world. Look around rural areas or deep urban areas and you will see this very clearly.


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## mesovortex

> I too wish to get back to the constitution... because our founding fathers wanted government to stay OUT of peoples lives. If these bills are passed... the government will put its nose into what we eat and drink, our health, and how we live. This is completely against the constitution. The government should only be there to PROTECT the people... not USE the people.


+

Recent Government closer connection with big business aka "too big to fail"

= 



> I always like to tell people that the United States is basically a third world country with the most amazing military in the world.


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## Toshogu

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/10/07/franken-passes-law-d.html

Another great example of the Bush Administration and Republican policies.

Here is the nice thing about our system, just because it passes as a law doesn't mean it is constitutional. At some point in time everything is passed through the Supreme Court and measured. Much like the denial of trails for Enemy Combatants has been found unconstitutional. So has the use of torture during interogations. 

Also if you're so into small goverment I wonder what your position on abortion is? Most people who speak like you do are anti-abortion and have no problem with having government in thier homes and in thier private lives.


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## Fishfirst

Bush administration??? What are you talking about? Al Franken wasn't even a part of government until the OBAMA administration took power. 

I think most people DO mind government being in their private lives... anyone else mind?


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## Toshogu

Comprehension is low, listen to the problem Franken is talking about. That problem is a direct result of the Bush administration and the Republicans. Also just to illustrate my point about where Republicans stand. The bill that passed after the speech was to apply the 5th circuits ruling that corporations can not protect themselves from criminal and civil prosecution by thier employees, or the government. Even if they have an employee that signs a contract stating otherwise. To every jurisdiction in the United States by making it federal law. 30 Republican Senators voted nay on this bill.

Imagine if that poor woman was your daughter, how would you vote? Do you believe that by voting nay on that bill the 30 Republican Senators are protecting your interests, or corporate interests?


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## Fishfirst

What are you talking about? So companies buying from companies that have a problem with rape in the work place is Bush's fault? I guarentee you this has been going on LONG before the Bush administration. I guarentee you THAT is not where republicans stand. I'm sure there is a reason 30 republicans voted no... I'm sure there is economic implications for this bill being passed as well. Also I don't agree with the republican party much anyway... but they are a hell of a lot better choice than liberals. They are elitists they think they know better than the american people.


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## Fishfirst

A bill like this often has hidden attachments...


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## mesovortex

Everything is Republican's fault. Democrats and American Imperialist can do nothing wrong.

When things goes wrong, it is Bush's fault. If things are good, it has nothing to do with the Republicans.

Are you trolling? If so, good for you. If not, you have some serious issue of understanding the world.


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## Toshogu

denying that the current situation is not a direct result of the missmanagement of the past 8 yrs is sticking your head in the sand.


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## mesovortex

denying that the current situation is not a direct result of the missmanagement of the past who knows how many years and still counting is sticking your head in the sand.


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