# Hi All, New to the Hobby



## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Hi folks, I'm new to the hobby and stumbled across this site. I'm TBS_Dave and I just got my first tank. IT IS HUGE! 20 GALLONS!!!! Well I got some fish for it and they aren't doing that well, help me out! I got 2 of those oscar fish, 5 of those african chicklid fish and a whole mess of guppies. Well i'm about out of guppies and the other fish don't look very good, they all have tiny little white spots all over them. what do I do????


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Oh god, where do I start. Read the "cycling" and "nitrogen cycle" stickies. New tank syndrome is killing your fish with high ammonia and/or nitrite. Plus your guppies have ich, a nasty fish disease. Read about ich treatments in the disease section. Third oscars grow way too big for a 20 gallon tank which is objectively quite small, African cichlids get too big for a 20 gallon and they kill each other when the tank is too small. 

Go to walmart, buy an ammonia test, some Quickcure and a good chlorine and chloramine remover such as Amquel+. Do a really large water change and then treat as directed. If you can keep them alive, you start planning for the future.


----------



## curtman602003 (Sep 1, 2008)

Hey TBS, welcome to the hobby! I am fairly new myself but i am afraid that emc7 is right. Part of the reason why your fish have been dying is because of new tank syndrom....this will go away in time...just be patient. Although 20 gallons seems big, it can be deciving because fish need their space just like people do . The oscars that you picked up get up to be about 10 inches big and that will definatly be a problem later. Oscars are usaly kept in species tanks because they will eat almost anything that will fit in their mouths. The africans will out grow a 20 gallon too and depending on what breed and the gender ratio it could (and most likely will) get violent. It sounds like the remaining fish have ich...i used ICH Attack to cure my fish when it happened and it worked rather quickly but it changes the color of your water brown. Next time you are going out to get fish i would window shop for the fish that you want, read about them and their ideal tank conditions, and post here because somtimes websites lie . I think that a part of fish keeping is trial and error and this time it may not work out but next time you can find fish that will go well together.

As i said i am new to the hobby too but im learning things as i go and try to pick up as much stuff as i can, and a lot of the people in the forum have been a big help too. hope that helps 

Also im just currious if you can get pics up of your tank?


----------



## Logicaly (Sep 28, 2008)

Wow TBS, thats a hell of a combo there. The Oscars might have eaten your guppies if im not mistaking. I could be wrong on that though!

Like said above though, it does indeed sound like your fish are sick. The sooner you treat them, and start with dilligent water changes, the better the chances are of your fish surviving.

I know how hard it is to refrain from cramming alot of fish into a tank when you first start. There are so many wonderful and exciting fish out there. My best suggestion would be to slow down a bit, do some research, and properly prepare your tanks. It really does make this wonderful hobby all the better in the long run.


----------



## Albino_101 (Aug 14, 2008)

Not to get on your case or anything, but god save the fish, first of all a 20 gallon is actually quite small compared to some of the 240 gallons on this site, and you have ich, so buy the medicine and raise the temp up some.

Your tank is way over crowded so at least get rid of the oscars, probably a LFS will take them, and your guppies might be cichlid food if you dont move them as well, but evntually your cichlids will outgrow that 20 gallon, if your new to this hobby you went in way toooooooooo fast(no hard feelings happened to me too with angelfish).

So once you have your tank under control, do research and i would start out with platys or mollys which are good hardy beginner fish, keep away from goldfish because they get big too and cause more ammonia than most fish. I'm not being mean here or anything im just thinking about those poor fish.

Also, what type of filtration do you have, undergravel, HOB, sponge, etc.... is it heated? is it lighted? and lastly is it planted?


----------



## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

Anyone else think this might be a troll?


----------



## Albino_101 (Aug 14, 2008)

whats a troll?


----------



## curtman602003 (Sep 1, 2008)

Trashion your probably right...with the "IT IS HUGE! 20 GALLONS!!!!"...

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer.


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Look Mommy, Trolls!


----------



## AndyCollins (Oct 9, 2008)

yea im new to this forum but ive encounterd the "ugly troll" before in other forums you guys may be right but give him a chance for now.


----------



## Blue Cray (Oct 19, 2007)

He hasnt been seen on the forum and hasn't posted back to us he's not coming back probably.


----------



## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Ok folks, several things...

Yes I was trolling, but not for controversy, for information to start discussion.

No, I am not new to the hobby, I've been keeping fish for almost 15 years.

And now to start the discussion! Who says a 20 gallon isn't a huge tank? size is in the eye of the viewer. Think about all those crazy killie folks that can keep the entire of a specie in a dixie cup? Compared to what they normally use, a 20gallon is HUGE. Now the stocking list I gave was extreme, but definately w/in the realm of a newbie it is also something that is completely doable (fish will survive, not thrive) providing you are willing to do the work and have the tank set up right. Saying the africans will outgrow the 20 isn't the best thing to say. What if they were one of the small shellies, just for example?


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Shellies are sold as "multies". Mixed Africans from chain stores are always Malawians and not small ones. Around here you never even see julies in the stores, let alone any of the small tanginikans. Don't troll, its annoying. I fell for it because we have had posts just like that one that turned out to be legit (or at least long-term, multi-episode trolls). One too many trolls, and we will start ignoring real newbs. By the way, I keep my killies in 10s and 20s. 



> but definately w/in the realm of a newbie it is also something that is completely doable (fish will survive, not thrive)


 In your post, the fish aren't surviving. They are dieing from ammonia poisoning and ich. I won't give advice to newbs advocating "doable" with extrordinary effort (like daily water changes and super filters). I will advocate stocking that is "doable" even with a little neglect and good for the lifespan of the fish. I won't count on someone buying a larger tank "later" or finding a "new home" for his soon to be 8" oscar. Better not to get them in the first place or take them back while you can. Look on craigslist and see all the oscars and red devils and big goldfish for "rehoming". I won't get in to arguments with you as to how your list could be ok "if". Assume the worst, you will rarely be dissappointed.


----------



## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

multies are sold as multies, my shellies were sold as hecqui


----------



## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Trolling is only bad when it's done to diminish the quality of the board. Sparking insightful discussion shouldn't diminish the quality of a board.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you want a discussion, start a discussion thread. Otherwise, since you have so much time on your hands, you can answer the newbs in the beginner section. Troll again and I'll beg the mods to ban you and all your aliases. Where do you live that you can just buy hecqui?


----------



## AndyCollins (Oct 9, 2008)

lame, TBS_Dave.. not cool. like emc7 said if you have the time use it else where to help people thats what the forum is for, personally i went to see how many people could have used help around the same subject you trolled and you could be helping some people, once again not cool. good call emc7.


----------



## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

TBS_Dave said:


> And now to start the discussion! Who says a 20 gallon isn't a huge tank? size is in the eye of the viewer. Think about all those crazy killie folks that can keep the entire of a specie in a dixie cup? Compared to what they normally use, a 20gallon is HUGE. Now the stocking list I gave was extreme, but definately w/in the realm of a newbie it is also something that is completely doable (fish will survive, not thrive) providing you are willing to do the work and have the tank set up right. Saying the africans will outgrow the 20 isn't the best thing to say. What if they were one of the small shellies, just for example?


Whew, been a while since I last visited FF...thanks Dave, for bringing it back.
How about that discussion...cuz it's a good one. 
20 gallons is larger than any tank I've owned in my life. I worked doing tank maintenance, worked on stuff up to 500 gallons, never kept anything larger than a 10. But it's amazing what you can do with the smaller tanks. 
Just for the sake of argument, lets look at some numbers. I like numbers. A lot. Too much even...anyway. 2x 8 inch oscars, 5x 5 inch cichilds, guppies are gone in dave's hypothetical tank. Total: 16+25 = 41 inches of fish. Divide by 20 gallons of water, you have 2.05 inches of fish per gallon. Sound unreasonable? Not to me. Why, you ask? Because I have a 2.5 gallon tank with about 21 inches of fish in it. More numbers! and you have 8.4 inches of fish per gallon. WOW! 4 times Dave's hypothetical tank. Want to call my 2.5 unstable? Unhealthy? Dangerous? Stupid? Go for it...you'll be called crazy by anyone who's seen the tank. Nearly every fish is vibrant and active, colorful and alert, and have been since this stock was reached some months ago. Why nearly every? Cuz I have two male killies of the same species, and there is one dominant fish, who keeps the other submissive. Yet he's lived for 8 months in this tank. 
Yes, here comes the arguement...*they're mostly killies and tetras, not the bio load of cichilds!* And you're right...that's why I dont think you could do 8.4 inches of cichlid per gallon. But I bet I could do 2.05. These things we overadvocate, like feeding every day, cichilds eat plants, etc. Manage these things for your situation! If I did this tank, I'd feed maybe twice weekly for adult fish. I'd have plenty of anubias and java fern, and enough rockwork to keep the africans (whatever they may be, I'm assuming them to be some kind of aulonocara in my estimate) occupied. I would bet it could be done, and done well. What do you think?

_I think you're out of your mind and giving very poor advice to any potential beginners who may read it._


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I think what can be done, by those who know what they are doing, and what should be advised are two different things. To a beginner, I will always advise what is safe and likely to succeed. Right now, I have Malawi cichlids in 5, 15, 20, 29, 30, & 55 gallon tanks. I just moved 6 5" and 9 2" Protomelas Stevensi out of a 20 gallon high tank. I have had Mbuna start killing each other in the past when there is more than one male in a 55 gallon tank. You might manage a bachelor tank or a harem long term in a 20 thats full of pvc pipe and thick plants, but I would never advise it. The likelyhood of sucess (no dead fish) is not high enough to justify recommending it without good reason. The first tank a person has should have a high chance of sucess and we should help them get there. When they are ready to start breaking the rules, they will have stopped asking for advice.


----------



## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

emc7 said:


> Shellies are sold as "multies". Mixed Africans from chain stores are always Malawians and not small ones. Around here you never even see julies in the stores, let alone any of the small tanginikans. Don't troll, its annoying. I fell for it because we have had posts just like that one that turned out to be legit (or at least long-term, multi-episode trolls). One too many trolls, and we will start ignoring real newbs. By the way, I keep my killies in 10s and 20s.
> 
> In your post, the fish aren't surviving. They are dieing from ammonia poisoning and ich. I won't give advice to newbs advocating "doable" with extrordinary effort (like daily water changes and super filters). I will advocate stocking that is "doable" even with a little neglect and good for the lifespan of the fish. I won't count on someone buying a larger tank "later" or finding a "new home" for his soon to be 8" oscar. Better not to get them in the first place or take them back while you can. Look on craigslist and see all the oscars and red devils and big goldfish for "rehoming". I won't get in to arguments with you as to how your list could be ok "if". *Assume the worst, you will rarely be dissappointed*.



Why assume the worst? Why not expect the best? Because you are afraid of disappointment? Disappointment is a part of life, it makes you stronger and more knowledgeable. So you make a mistake, but if you learn from the mistake you won't make it again and you will learn for yourself and maybe even find a new way to do something to get the same or better results as those who follow conventional thought. How do you think the hobby has advanced as far as it has?


Another reason for this post is that how many of us have heard the same type of scenario told to them by a newbie as I put up? Why teach them the easy way out, just dump the fish @ the LFS? Especially w/ the rapid decline of the mom and pop stores, the ones who historically will take in the unwanted fish, I know around here the big box stores won't take them in. Why not teach them what it takes to properly care for the fish in the situation they put themselves into so the fish will survive. Folks need to realize that there is more to this hobby than just feeding and changing water, especially newbies.


----------



## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

emc7 said:


> When they are ready to start breaking the rules, they will have stopped asking for advice.


I'm willing to break the rules w/ everything I do in this hobby, and guess what, I'm always willing to ask for advice.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> Why assume the worst?


Go read the back posts in the begginner section. Thats why. If you assume african cichlid means multies, it will turn out to be 6" auratus and the fish will be dead by morning. People always lie to avoid being criticized. If someone has "a few goldfish" in a small tank, it will turn out to be 20 in a one gallon bowl. If you assume the worst, and are wrong, you will be forgiven. Fail to asume the worst (those white spots are decorative, of course you used dechlor and Bio-spira), and the fish die. Once in a while we get someone who recieves good advice, follows it and does everything necesssary to care for the fish some unscrupulos vendor has sold him. Most times, it isn't practical. The 14 year old isn't allowed to go buy a 75 gallon tank for his oscar, his mom won't let him. Someone who sells an oscar to someone who thinks a 20 gallon tank is huge deserves to get it back. Most of the chains have a short-term return period. If you get the newb to give back the inappropirate fish prompty, it won't get dumped on the LFS later. If there are new methods and technology in the hobby, post about it. Show us the links. I'm not going to advise based on what could be coming down the pike, its likely out of the newb's price range anyway.


> follow conventional thought


This is exactly what is needed by someone who knows nothing. What is sorely lacking by the person who just got home from the chain stores.

We can certainly experiment in our tanks and discuss alternative methods on the board. And we do. There are threads on tanks with UG filters and plants, tanks with dirt and plants and no water changes, threads on new filters on the market, and new bottled products. But its not right to experiment with the newbs. Give them tried and true. Tell them how to make their one tank sucessful. They may get hooked and join the MTS afflicted or hook their friends. Pushing the limits isn't for those who are still learning the basics.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2008)

i thought we didnt feed trolls here


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Sorry, you're right Mike. Ignore on. I'm starting to doubt any new user's first post.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2008)

it is kind of sad. there is a lot of great information provided in this thread about the differences between understanding the hobby fully and being able to bend and break some rules, and the general guidelines that will help newbies be successful before they start bending and breaking rules leading to failure. 

There are an infinite amount of ways to run a perfectly healthy aquarium... the first post in this thread is far from that though, and IMO its not even arguable there... I am not going to question this persons fish keeping abilities at all, as i said there are many ways that people successfully keep fish, but the point is that while it may work for you...it does not always work for everyone. 

My impression of what a forum like this should be doing, is to help guide those new comers by teaching them ways that will provide them with the best opportunity for success. I have no problem at all with other methods of fish keeping, nor do most people here as we all find what works for us, but its a different story when you are preaching something to a new comer that does not guide them to have the best chance for success. IMO that is just ruining the hobby for many people, not everyone enjoys failing at a hobby where the costs are high, and not everyone enjoys killing their pets.

EMC, i hope you didnt take my comment as something directed negatively towards you, not at all meant that way. I hope by now you know i respect you, your advice, and your fish keeping abilities. The point is that if this thread creator wanted to make a discussion thread, then make a discussion thread. IMO trolling is uncalled for regardless the reasoning, this was not the way to approach the topic. Enough said


----------



## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

if you ignore it, it will go away.. LOL


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

No, Mike I realized you were right. I was feeding a troll, sorry. I'll cut it out. Maybe he will go away.


----------



## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

fishboy23 said:


> Yes, here comes the arguement...*they're mostly killies and tetras, not the bio load of cichilds!* And you're right...that's why I dont think you could do 8.4 inches of cichlid per gallon. But I bet I could do 2.05. These things we overadvocate, like feeding every day, cichilds eat plants, etc. Manage these things for your situation! If I did this tank, I'd feed maybe twice weekly for adult fish. I'd have plenty of anubias and java fern, and enough rockwork to keep the africans (whatever they may be, I'm assuming them to be some kind of aulonocara in my estimate) occupied. I would bet it could be done, and done well. What do you think?
> 
> _I think you're out of your mind and giving very poor advice to any potential beginners who may read it._


Wow...someone else can edit my post? Strange...I almost feel violated :razz:
You think I'm out of my mind...I think you're wrong. You think I'm giving very poor advice? Why? I'm into qualifying statements, please do your part.
Given what's bolded, I have no idea what is so bad about this. What part of my advice is bad? Did I break that sacred law of no more than an inch of fish per gallon? That's the dumbest rule I've ever heard of. A vague and poor guideline that has to be adjusted for every tank situation. I've got a 5 gallon and want tetras, but can only get 5 at one inch long so I fulfill the rule! That's just foolish...get 15, they'll be so much happier, look nicer, and be just fine.
You folks seem to be caught up in wanting to keep beginners in the hobby, and that's admirable. I join you in this regard, to the point where I have donated my time and experience helping 3 different friends set up tanks for their apartments or dorm rooms this fall. Every one still has their tank up and running, and are enjoying their fish. But to me, the key to getting hoooked is being able to enjoy the fish, not following guidelines. Simply put, I would rather help a friend blatantly violate the above inch of fish per gallon rule, in a way that is still successful, then have their enthusiasm hampered by foolish "rules". If there's a way to make what they want work, that is what is going to get them hooked.

* If you paid attention, you would have noticed that I "bolded" the part that makes the rest of what you said actually work. It might have otherwise gone unnoticed.*


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

fishboy, yes some of the "rules" are stupid and sometimes we say "always" and "never" when we should be more subtle. But please quit feeding the troll. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.


----------



## Guest (Oct 15, 2008)

fishboy23, yes, some people can edit your posts. They're called administrators, moderators, and super moderators. They exist on every forum I know of 

To be perfectly honest, there _are_ no rules in fishkeeping. There are guidelines, some old like the 1" of fish per gallon (which is ridiculous, I'm basing that on experience and common sense), and some guidelines that really do help.

People can follow the guidelines and advice given by others, or they can dive into a whole new world in fish keeping. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I haven't always followed the guidelines and advice people give me; when I started keeping fish and even now. But I try new things in a way that I hope and have some knowledge that it _will not_ harm the creatures I keep.

There are all kinds of fishkeepers out there: right ones, wrong ones, those who need help, those who know what they're talking about, those who understand the science behind it, and those who go by trial and error. The list goes on and on. I keep the fish the way I do because I don't want to end up with errors. I'll advise newcomers to do things in ways that hopefully will not lead to dead animals or them leaving the hobby; two things that go hand in hand, IMO.

fishboy, you gave the example of keeping more than 1" of fish per gallon of water, which very, very few people here believe in, if anyone does. Sometimes that works, but it also doesn't work or make sense in lots of situations.

On a side note, trolling is trolling. If you want a debate about the boundaries of fish keeping, I don't think posting as a beginner will get you the same advice/conversation that might be given to someone who's been keeping fish for a while and vaguely understands the concepts behind it. No harm in starting a thread with your real intentions behind it


----------



## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

Ichthius said:


> To be perfectly honest, there _are_ no rules in fishkeeping. There are guidelines, some old like the 1" of fish per gallon (which is ridiculous, I'm basing that on experience and common sense), and some guidelines that really do help.
> 
> People can follow the guidelines and advice given by others, or they can dive into a whole new world in fish keeping. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I haven't always followed the guidelines and advice people give me; when I started keeping fish and even now. But I try new things in a way that I hope and have some knowledge that it _will not_ harm the creatures I keep.
> 
> ...


First off, I love the statement "There are no rules in fishkeeping" because you're absolutely right. That's the point here. People immediately began giving Dave responses of the old guidelines as if they were rules, assuming his tank couldn't work. I challenged that it really could, if he took the correct route, one that may not even be too complicated for a beginner.
I also agree that dead fish leads to disgruntled beginners, but so do tanks that they don't enjoy. A mixture, then, of bent rules for what they want and realistic conditions is probably best. The fish live, the keeper gets what he wants, hopefully we've got a new one hooked. 
Along with your side note, Dave really isn't a troll, he's quite knowledgeable, and he is not me. I registered here a long time ago (before you even!) and used to visit the chat until I was in chat when my computer suddenly popped up that I'd been infected with spyware, at which point I stopped visiting. I have since been back to visit chat once in a while, but not often. Dave...he's not me...but he's a friend.


----------



## Moba (Aug 26, 2008)

emc7 said:


> I'm starting to doubt any new user's first post.



Edited by Mod.

One warning given to Moba. Thin ice, Moba. Very thin.


----------



## Guest (Oct 16, 2008)

Closed......


----------

