# Newbie who made all the newbie mistakes - where to go from here?



## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

So, like others, I got into the hobby via my local Petco. As you can imagine, I got atrocious advice, but not knowing any better then, I've gone along with what they've said.

Here's my history, all of which happened BEFORE I did my own research online and discovered all my mistakes! 

I started with a tiny 1.5gal tank for my daughter to have a goldfish. This size was recommended to us by the petstore. Well, the goldfish kept dying, I did everything they told me to do - "cycled" the tank for 24 hours (what a joke), floated the bag, did water changes every OTHER week (those poor fish!), etc. So we decided that goldfish weren't for us and we opted to get 3 guppies instead (still in the 1.5gal tank, and yes, I feel horrible about it now that I know what I know.)

One guppy died within days, but somehow the other 2 hung on for quite some time, considering (6+ months).

Well, a couple weeks ago, I decided to upgrade to a 10gal tank, and bought an Aqueon kit from Petco (we live in a rural area and there are no fish stores within a 30 mile radius, so Petco was my only resource). I set up the new tank and again, as they advised me, "cycled" it for 24 hours. I did re-use the gravel and plants from the old established tank, in addition to new live plants, a piece of driftwood, etc. I also bought a bunch of new fish and just plunked them all in 

Well, as you can predict, we lost many fish. Because I was getting a lot of enjoyment from setting up the tank, and was suspicious that either Petco was selling sick fish or giving bad advice, I hopped online and was stunned to find out about, well, everything! Everything I had done wrong, that I basically killed all these fishies with my ignorance 

So I'm on a mission to get it right and save the platies and guppies we have left! 

The 10gal tank has been up and running for over 2 weeks now. For the past several days, I've been doing 40% daily water changes and testing the water (using the test strips, which I've now learned are not very accurate, so I'll buy the other types of kits ASAP.) Our tank, per the calculator, is overstocked (2 adult guppies, 1 baby guppy, 3 small red platies, 1 larger black and red platy, 2 mystery snails), but I'm determined to do whatever it takes to keep these fish healthy until the tank is properly cycled and I'm able to upgrade to a larger tank. I've grown very attached to these fish and snails and there's no way I'm taking them back to Petco now that I know better - they would certainly not be better off in their nasty tanks with their ignorant aquatics staff.

So, anyway, besides having set up the new tank with plants and gravel from the established tank, I have also been using aquarium salt (and I do top off the salt in proportion to my water changes, to keep the levels the same, and when I change the water I've gotten quite good at keeping the temp consistent with the tank), and added a bacteria supplement which is supposed to help speed along the development of the biological filter (I know there are mixed reviews about this, but I figure it can't hurt, right?) I also added some live plants to the tank, and maintain the temp with a heater, which stays right at 80 degrees. I did change out the filter media once, thinking a new filter was a smart move, but realize now I probably just set myself back on the cycling by removing all that bacteria - GRRRRRR! I had also used the ammonia neutralizer a couple times, which killed off all the food for my bacteria. DAMN IT! Have I made every imaginable mistake possible, or what?!

I will say I'm shocked at what a difference I see in the fish now compared to the previous fish, or even some of the same fish a week ago. They are so peppy, fast, energetic, full of life! Why don't the pet store chains properly train people?! There's no need for all these fish to suffer and die - it's so infuriating and disappointing. I've now found an aquarium store about 40 miles from me, so I'll pay them a visit this weekend and if they are good, I will move my business over. 

So my plan is to continue with daily water changes and monitoring my tank levels until I see evidence of cycling, then reduce the amount and frequency of water changes accordingly. Every evening, I'm still registering low ammonia levels, which improve after the nightly water change, but I'm not seeing any nitrite or nitrate levels at all - they are at "safe" (again, using the less accurate test strips). Hmmmm. I think the tank just needs more time? It's only been a week since I replaced the filter, and only 2 weeks since I set it up.

Haven't lost any fish in several days, and as I said, the fish are 1000% turned around compared to earlier, before I knew to do daily water changes and they were suffering from too much ammonia. 

Long term, once I get this tank cycled and the fish are healthy and strong, I'd like to purchase a large tank for our living room - I'm thinking a 75gal acrylic 

Cycling that tank will be easier, and I'll do fishless cycling on the big tank then move this little family over, and add to it slowly and carefully.

I will keep the 10gal maybe as a nursery for fry, or something. If I remove the fish for a time, but keep it hooked up and running, will it stay cycled? I need to research that. It would be great to have the 10gal constantly at the ready for use as a quarantine tank, nursery/birthing tank, etc. without having to cycle it over and over again. 

Anyway, thanks for this great forum and all the valuable info I've learned here over the past several days. Please don't throw tomatoes at me - I really didn't mean any harm, I was just a sucker for bad information and am now heading in the right direction!


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

Oh, and another thing I learned about yesterday was tannins from driftwood turning my water brown. Every time I did a daily water change, I was stunned at how brown the water had become in just 24 hours. It was totally freaking me out! But then I read about the driftwood and last night I removed it from the tank. Clear water-colored water today - woot! And more space for the fish to swim around. No more driftwood for me - I'm not a fan.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

You can boil the driftwood for few hours to keep it from staining the water.

Sorry that you had to learn about Petco the hard way. At least now you're well on your way to success.

Why don't they train anyone? It's simple: you can't teach someone something you don't know yourself.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

That's a great tip on the driftwood!

Fish are still doing ok today. I picked up a more accurate ammonia tester, and swung by the fish shop I mentioned, which is the only specialty aquarium shop within a 50 mile radius. It was...pretty good. Not great. 100% better than Petco! 

BUT WAIT! Then, on a fluke I stopped at the local PetSmart. I've always preferred them over Petco, but they are a bit farther away. My expectations were pretty low, I assumed they'd be as bad as Petco. But to my surprise, their aquatic section was pretty amazing! The fish were healthy, happy, active, the tanks were in great shape, staff was knowledgable, no tanks on observation or quarantine, no dead fish to be found in any of the tanks at all, and fantastic prices on tanks and supplies.

In fact, after seeing tanks in person today, I realize that 55gal is the biggest I could comfortably go at this stage - anything larger is too overwhelming! In fact, I got a great deal on an Aqueon kit, a 36gal bowfront with pump and filter, heater, etc. for $100! I'm very happy with my 10gal kit from Aqueon, so this is a nice upgrade for my downstairs - I think if I want more, I'd opt for additional tanks in this size, rather than one humongous tank. 

So now I need to get it set up for a fishless cycle. What can I transfer over from the current 10gal to help speed up the cycling process? Would it be smart to move one or two fish over for a fish-in cycle, taking some of the burden off of the 10gal that isn't fully cycled yet? Or is that just slowing the process and putting the fish at greater risk?

Time to daydream about stocking it!

At the stores today I saw a number of fish that caught my eye. I'mm have to research compatibility and figure out what kind of community I want.

Loved:

Silver Dollars (get too big?)
Bristlenose Catfish
Albino Cory
Glass Catfish
Tiger Platy (all platies, actually, I just love them)
Fancy Guppies
Bumblebee and Dalmatian Mollies (I like all the mollies) 
Mini/Pea Puffer Fish (OMG these little guys were so freaking cute! Maybe not a community type of fish though?)
Cichlids of all kinds, know nothing about them, need to research

I'll most likely keep the current fish in the 10gal for my daughter's room (may relocate the large Platy, though, because he chases the others around and is driving the rest of them mad) and this 36gal will be MINE! So now's the time to come up with a community theme, lol.

Help!


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## Ghost Knife (Mar 12, 2008)

EricaD said:


> That's a great tip on the driftwood!
> 
> Fish are still doing ok today. I picked up a more accurate ammonia tester, and swung by the fish shop I mentioned, which is the only specialty aquarium shop within a 50 mile radius. It was...pretty good. Not great. 100% better than Petco!
> 
> ...


Your first decision is to figure out what type of tank you want. Whether it be cold water, tropical community, tropical semi-aggressive, or tropical aggressive. To answer your Silver Dollar question, yes they get fairly large. I have 13 in my 125 and have had most of them for over a year and four of them since 2008. Those 4 are about 7 inches from nose to tail and the other nine are 4-5 inches. Silver Dollars also destroy live plants with their appetite.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

I'm thinking tropical community. I'm intrigued by livebearers and the idea of breeding babies 

So I might stick with a community of guppies and platies and maybe a couple of small corys? Mollies are cute too, but maybe on the large side - will have to research. 

I think I'd prefer to have more fish, but smaller ones. Fish that get big kind of don't appeal to me as much as small ones. I like to watch the groups and how they interact and each develop their own personality. And I could watch our two mystery snails all day, seriously!

So maybe I'll target stocking the new tank at about 50% (once cycled, of course!) with livebearers, and see how breeding goes. Then we can keep a baby here and there and continue building our community that way.

Right now I'm shooting for fun and interesting, but on the easy side (as far as fish selection, size and temperament)


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

Also wanted to add that I picked up some Seachem Prime and Stability to try and help my tanks along. My 10gal was registering 1ppm ammonia this morning, but I did use both Prime and Stability last night, and skipped yesterday's water change at the advice of the fish store guy. I know the ammonia was neutralized by the Stability, so I was hoping that stretching water changes a little might help the bacteria get going. I will do a small water change today, though, because I'm paranoid about the fishies getting sick.

The fish are doing well, though. Peppy, strong appetites, same as usual, zipping around and happy. 

WHINE! Why isn't my ammonia going down? Hopefully the Stability will kick start it.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

IN GRENERAL
Stability needs to be added on the same day you add the fish and it does take about 24 hours to "hatch" and kick in. Stability is live bacteria in a bottle.

To answer one of yor original questions- the ammonia neutralizer does not stop the cycling, it just renders the ammonia non toxic to the fish. 
If you are using Prime and Stability you should not have to do any water changes. 

Ammonia test kits will still register ammonia in the tank even when it is neutralized, but if you get 0 ammonia reading, 0 nitrite, and 0 nitrate readings over the next few weeks you know that the Stability is doing its job.
just monitor it for your own learning experience. 

You can add a bit of aquarium salt to the tank if you see any nitrite readings- it helps the nitrite stay out of the fishes bloodstream, so they don't die.

I see you already have ammonia readings so either your fish load is too great for the Stability to cope with or you didn't get it in quite soon enough. Since every tank cycles at its own rate and method you may find you have to do a few water changes to keep the ammonia level low enough that the ammonia does not kill the live , good bacteria provided by Stability
Heavy rammonia can kill the good bacteria.
Ammonia in High ph water is more toxic than in lower ph and the reverse is true for nitrite.
good luck.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Also if you take the fish out of the 10 gallon and leave it empty for a couple of days it is NO LONGER cycled and you will probably have to start again.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

Thanks Mousey, that's so helpful!

I think I was hurting my cycling by being overzealous on the water changes for fear of hurting my fish. Now that I have the Prime, I will hold off on daily water changes, and will monitor ammonia daily. My last water change was on Friday and I added Prime to the tank last night. 

The fish have been in the tank for 2 weeks now, and I just started using Stability. Hope that's ok. Can't hurt, right? I'm trying to balance letting the tank have time to cycle with keeping my fish comfortable and healthy. I'm sort of throwing everything but the kitchen sink in there, in the hopes that the tank will do its thing!

I have decided to leave the guppies and platies in the 10g, and have just bought a larger tank for a new community. If we end up with fry, I'll just use a breeder box/net or something. We'll figure it out. Neither my platies or my guppies appear to be pregnant, anyway, so we have lots of time to figure that out.


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## sbetsy (Apr 6, 2010)

Lots of us made mistakes when we were first starting out. Sounds like you are learning. I agree with some of the others - read about fish carefully and decide if you want tropical community or african cichlids or something else entirely. Also, you can look around online and if you find fish you like, you can order them shipped to you. Think about bottom feeders too - you might want to check out loaches (not clowns, though - they get really big and it sounds like you don't want a big tank) or bristlenose pleco or cories. You might also look into angelfish. They are pretty cool fish, but can be aggressive. Good job getting stability. I swear by that stuff. Oh - and the driftwood - boiling for a couple hours really, really does work. You can avoid the tannins/brown water problem that way and your fish may really like it. Are you exploring plants? I love having plants in my tank and the fish appreciate it. Be careful about adding fish - even if the petsmart is better than the petco, adding fish can also mean adding disease. Consider quarantining (either with or without meds).


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

Went to get supplies for my tank (not fish, just gravel, etc. so I can get it going) and I fell hard for the Cichlids. The various African ones that stay under 5". Will do some research to see if it's feasible to create a community tank of maybe 6 of these, plus a bottom feeder or two. That would look so lovely and the fish are so interesting!


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## DevinsFish (Oct 24, 2010)

Two things I would be careful with. I noticed that you are throwing quite a bit of chemicals into your tank. Just be cautious that you're not over-medicating your tank because that could end up causing more harm than good. Also, cichlids are amazing fish, however; if you want a community tank then it would have to be a community of cichlids. These fish do not typically "play nice" with others. Bottom feeders typically do okay with them, but you seem to have some emotional attachment to your fish. This is a great thing to have, but when one of your fish is murdered....well you can imagine the mixed emotions you will get. Mad at the fish, sad fish died, etc... Other than that, it sounds like you're looking to the right places to be on your way to success. Good luck!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The african cichlids play under a whole different set of rules than most all the other fish you'll find in the store. Be sure to check into that and understand them before you get any of those.

For now, lay off of the Prime and keep adding the stability.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

Got it. I have been adding Stability at the recommended amount, and ammonia is testing at 0.25-0.50ppm, so seems to be reducing, and I haven't changed water in a few days, but am keeping a very close eye on the fish and testing twice a day because I'm paranoid.

I know Cichlids are semi-aggressive, but murdered fish? Yikes! I will do a ton of research before deciding to go this route. You're right that I'm a lover, not a fighter, so maybe I don't have the stomach for aggressive fish. LOL, I should probably stick with guppies and platies.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

There are Africans that stay under 5", but you won't likely see them in the chain stores. Don't trust store size estimates. Get exact species names and research each fish on cichlid-forum.com profiles.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Don't be in too much of a rush about the tank cycling. The aquarium hobby is very much about doing lots of research and having A LOT of patience. People have had all sorts of experiences with the length of time it takes to cycle.

I cycled a 29 gallon doing a fishless cycle and it took 73 days. I cycled a 29 gallon tank with fish in and it took 75 days. Both times I used Stability, but it didn't seem to speed anything up. Others have had different experiences.

I'm curious, do you know your pH? I ask this because the higher the pH of your water, the more toxic ammonia is at lower levels. Because I have a very high pH (8.4), I had to do 50% water changes daily when I was cycling a tank with fish in it. It is good to know your pH, that way you can determine how high the ammonia can go before changing water. I think it is always better to err on the side of caution and change water more often than to let the fish die from poisoning.

A note about Prime. I read on another message board that a person called Seachem and asked how long Prime works at protecting against ammonia. They were told 48 hours. So don't rely on Prime to be actively protecting the fish for longer stretches of time.

Regarding African cichlids. Definitely do your homework. I kept a large tank of them for years. While they're beautiful, they are very aggressive. You really need to understand stocking these fish. Too few and they will fight and kill off the weak. Too many and they will fight and kill each other over territory. I know there are a few small varieties, but most get quite large.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

This is such a wonderful resource for advice - thanks so much!

My ph is pretty neutral, right around 7.2/7.4 (am using the test strips, which I know are less accurate, and I am slowly acquiring all of the better testing kits). Water is soft. I did have a large piece of driftwood in there, which I removed prior to the most recent water change (changed about 40%) due to brown water, and if I recall, driftwood can lower the ph. I will test our tap water rather than the aquarium water, to see what our natural water's ph is, in case the driftwood has messed with it. Ph is 7.2/7.4 AFTER removing the driftwood and changing 40% of the water out, replacing it with filtered tap water.

I will test ammonia again tonight and report back. I haven't done a water change for several days, so will probably test and change water accordingly. 

Thanks for the Seachem info. I searched the bottle to find out how long it lasted and couldn't find anything! But it does say that the recommended dose will neutralize up to 1ppm of ammonia (1Mg/L, which I understand is the same thing) and since my ammonia level at the time was under 1ppm, I figured that it would neutralize what was there, and then I test again daily, keep an eye on it, and that I'd need to add more Prime with water changes in accordance with my ammonia levels assuming they are increasing. But right now, my level seems to be decreasing, but if I see an increase I'll do a water change and treat with prime in between water changes, in proportion to the ppm level.

LOL, it makes more sense in my head than I can seem to articulate!

As for my 46gal, I'm now stuck on a Blood Parrot pair and some additional tankmates. I've posted in the Cichlid forum, but I've read a lot about them and seems they are generally a pretty peaceful fish among Cichlids. More my speed.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

Copying this post over from the Cichlid forum too, I need advice because I was planning to set up the filter and fill the tank to begin cycling tonight, but maybe I need to exchange my filter?

On the advice of the store clerk, who seemed somewhat knowledgeable about aquatics, I purchased the Marineland Penguin 350 Bio-wheel for my 46 gallon, which is rated up to 70 gallons so I thought it would be on the high end for filtration, but wondering if I need to go bigger and exchange for the Emperor 400? Is that overkill? Is that not enough?

I'm now learning that 10x is the recommended rate, and this only gives me 7-8x at 350GPH. Even the 400 gives a hair under 10x at 400GPH.

I know it depends on stocking levels and types of fish, too.

I originally grabbed the Emperor 400 because the tank label/packaging recommended that one for the 46 gallon (my tank and hood are also Marineland) but the clerk actually laughed at me and said that I'd kill my fish by over-cleaning the water with a tank rated for 80 gallons. WTH? LOL, I was sort of overwhelmed, so when she said to get a filter rated for a 50 gallon, I followed my instinct and went with a higher rated 350. But that's not enough either...I think?

I be confused.

I want to choose one that will suit whatever community I wind up with, erring on the side of more aggressive filtration because that seems better to me than the alternative, particularly if I wind up with Cichlids.

So....400?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

IMO, bigger is better. 2 blood parrots won't be as overstocked as 20 Mbuna, but because they can't close their mouths, they make a mess, so lots of filtration is a good thing. IMO, you can't over-filter. You can have too much flow, but there are ways to mitigate that. Penguins are decent. Emperors are better. They have a deeper body and therefore more area and they have a spray bar that keeps the bio-wheels turning even if the media clogs. If you do your water changes and keep an eye on the filter (if the bio-wheels get dry, clean the axles), the penguin will be fine. But I would've got the emperor.


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## EricaD (Nov 4, 2010)

My Penguin is still unopened in the box, and I can easily exchange it for the Emperor. Better yet, I'll swing by the store on my way home tonight, and just return the penguin next time I'm out, cuz I'm impatient!

Emperor it is! Should have gone with my gut!


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

If you see nitrites starting -- be aware they are more toxic at the lower ph than at the higher-- aquarium salt is useful at that stage- if you should start to see nitrites.


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