# Is this ok?



## elvis332 (Dec 29, 2007)

ok so i was on computer and i saw this cool tank test kit heres a photo is this good?


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## Gump (Aug 2, 2006)

I personally would never use it. Too easy to have a false read.


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## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

I hate test kits. Reasonable water changes will take care of any of the problems these folks are wanting you to test for. Ammonia too high? Water change. Nitrite too high? Water change. Nitrate too high? Water change. pH dipping too low? Water change. Why else do I hate test kits? Because they get old and inaccurate too quickly, then you need a test kit to test your test kit, and just buying a new one from the store doesn't guarantee fresh, do you know how long it's been sitting in the store or the warehouse? Get yourself a pH/TDS if you must test pH and hardness, and then just keep up w/ water changes.


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## LittlePuff (Jan 17, 2005)

How do you know if you're finished cycling, then?


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## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

I don't worry about it. If necessary, more frequent water changes at first. The frequency of water changes at first depends on my initial stocking levels.


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## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

LittlePuff said:


> How do you know if you're finished cycling, then?


How did they know before commercial test kits were out there? Ya throw in a cheap fish, see how it does...then ya throw in a couple more just to be sure...and if they all survive, you're set. Oddly enough, adding the fish slowly also lets you build up the bacteria to good levels too...
I'm with Dave on this one....I dont own a test kit and dont plan to. Lots of small water changes at the start (remove ammonia without removing too much bacteria), slow to your normal cycle over the first couple months of a larger tank, you'll end up just fine.


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## Sea-Agg2009 (Aug 2, 2008)

Yah, I am kinda on the fence with this one. pH and hardness is good to keep track of fairly regularly. As for nitrates and nitrites, I take my water to the LFS and get them to test it. If it's right on, I dont do as much of a water change. Any decent place will test your water for free, as long as you aren't going every day and annoying them, but every other week is totally reasonable.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I will say that it is interesting how much people do rely on test kits to solve issues. Every time (so far) that my fish has had issues the readings are always what they are supposed to be (am 0 trite 0 trate 5-20 depending on tank). The interesting part, for me, is that when the numbers are right many folks seem stumped. Hmmm thought for sure x y z number must have been high and that was causing it. Ironically enough when someone does come up with the "right" numbers many will then come back with "well just because it says 0 you don't really know that it is 0 and even a small amount could have caused this." Can ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels cause illness or harm? Yup. Is it always that? no. Sometimes it has nothing to do with that. Other times even if that is a factor it doesn't help the solution, or even in identifying the disease present in any given tank.


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## LittlePuff (Jan 17, 2005)

Why do you want to judge how when to change water when a fish dies? have you ever heard of fishless cycling? It's more humane than killing some to stabilize a tank.


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## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

Yes, and fishless cycling takes somewhere in the neighborhood of...6 weeks? 8 weeks? That's a long time to stare at an empty tank, isn't it?
Well, it is to me. And quite frankly, I'd rather take the risk with a $1 fish then just let it die at the pet store...building up slowly rarely kills fish anyway, the likelihood of losses (if you're doing things right) is pretty slim. 
Please note: killing a fish does not stabilize a tank. If the fish dies, you've got a problem, not stability. It's a good indicator. And the problem does not always have to lie in the realm of what the test kit tells you...bottom line is the fish is going to survive if your tank is going well and will perish if not. Even if you waste two months on a fishless cycle.


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## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Ok so lets say you fishless cycle, what happens if you don't add enough fish to keep the introduction of ammonia to maintain the bacteria level? Fine, until you add more fish, then you go through a mini cycle, risking all those fish. What happens if you add too many fish? You go through a mini cycle risking all the fish you put in. Basically, how many fish will equal the introduction of the same amount of ammonia to the system to maintain its stability? 5? 8? Either way you are risking the fish you put into the system so why not look at a full tank while your tank is cycling.


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## justintrask (Jun 29, 2008)

Sooo back to elvis.

I have used them in the past elvis, and while not as reliable as other kits, that kit is better than no kit.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'm with justin, any test is better than no test. Once a tank is established and no fish are dying, you can keep a water change routine and seldom test water. But testing is essential to ruling out water quality issues when your fish are dying and helpful for establishing your feeding and water change routine. 

The main thing I see wrong with the strips is how quickly you run out. A good liqud kit can do more than 100 test, but the strips usually come in sets of 25.


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Ammonia is ammonia. Whether it comes from the bottle or a living animal makes no real difference in the speed of cycling a tank. Fishless cycling gives a bit more control of the process, and doesn't leave leftover fish you used to cycle the tank. 

the bacteria is largely found on the surface of things, especially in aerated areas such as your filter, not enough in the water to matter. So water changes are a good idea to minimize spikes.

A basic water test kit like this can help for general situations if you want to find out an obvious water problem, it can be useful if the water is out of whack enough to cause a serious problem then it should show up. A "5 in 1" is going to be a bit more inaccurate too, you'd give up accuracy for convenience. If you were looking for maybe some evidence for a bit more specific of a problem, like ph swings from low kh or getting the right water conditions for spawning sensitive fish, then it wouldnt be of much help.

so, i think for a basic aquarium keeper you can get by without a kit, but one can definitely be helpful if you're looking for a reason why something is wrong. More water changes cant solve any problem, especially if the problem can be found straight from the tap itself via a test kit =P. I've heard plenty of stories where people were baffled by a problem only to use a test kit to find out their source of water was the problem with a test kit


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I think fishless cycling is neat, though I agree its a long time to wait. Though having 8 weeks to decide stocking will probably make for a better long term success than a half hour at the store. I don't think "sacrifical fish" are the answer. I think the "bacteria in a bottle" or seeding a filter is better than waiting, but since they don't always work, test kits will tell you if the tank is fish safe. There isn't any reason not to do an express fishless cycle. 

Ammonia, nitrite or ntirate can creep up over time and pH & hardness can fall off. Any of these can affect fish. If the tank is full of toxins or the water parameters are unstable, the fish will never be healthy no matter how many diseases you treat for. Contrarywise, if you get the water perfect, fish can fight off some diseases on their own and have a better chance no matter what they are up against.

Anyway I get kind of sick the whole test/don't test, cycle/don't cycle arguments. Do we need to have this in every thread? Can we start a new thread instead of hijacking?

When in doubt, change water. If fish are dead in a small tank, you will need a water change anyway because a rotting fish makes ammonia, so do a big water change. But the longer you go between water changes, the more dangerous a large change can be. If you compare the pH and hardness of the tank to the new water, you will see if you need to add the new water really slowly or can just fill the tank up. Regular small water changes like the weekly ones most often recommended here are safer than infrequent large ones. 

When you ask for help, it helps if you can supply some information. Test kits are one way to get information that can at least rule out some common problems.


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

If anything, fishless cycling should be faster. It allows somewhat higher and more stable concentrations of ammonia along with warmer temperatures, to an extent, that would allow faster bacterial growth. Seeding is always faster, and should always work, unless you kill the bacteria transferring it to your tank or shocking it somehow.


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## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

Ok, replying to a few things...
1) Bad tap water...you dont need a test kit for that. Ask your water company for a water quality report. You get tons of numbers for all sorts of things, find the relevant ones and check levels. Trust me, their equipment is a LOT more accurate than your test strips. Edit: And it's FREE!
2) Ammonia is ammonia, but where does the bacteria come from? The concentration is a lot higher in a fish digestive tract than it is in your tap water. Thus, cycling with a fish is faster. You may counter, well if you add in the bottled bacteria too, you'll be all set. But then you're at the same place. Now which is faster? Well, to state the obvious, one method has a fish, one method does not. Fishless cycling, by definition, is slower because you dont have any fish! I'd still rather have a tank with a few fish cycling it than stare at an empty tank for weeks. 
Please dont run away with the impression I'm advocating "sacrificial fish". This can very legitimately be a fish you want to have in your tank setup later on. Put it in your newly set up tank, keep doing frequent small water changes. Build up your stock over the first few months, staying with regular water changes. There are some perhaps hidden advantages in this:
1) You're not reliant on a test kit. If you run out, or the numbers seem fine but your fish are dying, etc, all problems associated with test kits. You're not doing a water change because your test kit says you should, you're doing it because that's what you should do with fish.
2) You get into the habit of regular water changes. Let me make this bold: *There is NO BETTER HABIT in fishkeeping than regular water changes!!!!*
3) Instant gratification. This is a big deal in fishkeeping, especially with new folks. They dont want to stare at an empty tank while it's cycling. Heck, some kids lose interest in that tank they convinced mom and dad to get just in the time it spends cycling. It's a matter of starting things off on the right foot.


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

We are asking him to use the test kit because he keeps asking why is fish are dieing and we can't tell him if we don't know whats in the water. If it's not the water chemistry then we can move on to other things but we need to rule that out first. He is a very new beginner and isn't experienced enough to know what to look for in ammonia poisoning or high nitrates. True, regular water changes are the best thing for most problems but you have to diagnose the problem to know if the water changes will work. If we know the paramaters are in check then we know to look for another cause of death.


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Oh, youre right about #1 fishboy. I was just referring to what dave said, "ammonia high? do a water change. Nitrate too high? do a water change."

But I think youre slightly confused about what fishless cycling is in #2.


> 2) Ammonia is ammonia, but where does the bacteria come from? The concentration is a lot higher in a fish digestive tract than it is in your tap water. Thus, cycling with a fish is faster. You may counter, well if you add in the bottled bacteria too, you'll be all set. But then you're at the same place. Now which is faster? Well, to state the obvious, one method has a fish, one method does not. Fishless cycling, by definition, is slower because you dont have any fish! I'd still rather have a tank with a few fish cycling it than stare at an empty tank for weeks.


By "concentration is higher in a fish digestive tract", are you saying the fish themselves seed the nitrifying bacteria in the tank? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works, as I've never heard that before.


anyway, in elvis332's case, pretty much any test kit will work since any sign of ammonia or nitrite showing up on that test kit will mean the tank isn't finished cycling.


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## elvis332 (Dec 29, 2007)

Buggy said:


> We are asking him to use the test kit because he keeps asking why is fish are dieing and we can't tell him if we don't know whats in the water. If it's not the water chemistry then we can move on to other things but we need to rule that out first. He is a very new beginner and isn't experienced enough to know what to look for in ammonia poisoning or high nitrates. True, regular water changes are the best thing for most problems but you have to diagnose the problem to know if the water changes will work. If we know the paramaters are in check then we know to look for another cause of death.


ok i am not new in fish keeping ive been doing it for 4 years but i did not know how to traet them since a coulpe of months ago


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## elvis332 (Dec 29, 2007)

shev said:


> Oh, youre right about #1 fishboy. I was just referring to what dave said, "ammonia high? do a water change. Nitrate too high? do a water change."
> 
> But I think youre slightly confused about what fishless cycling is in #2.
> 
> ...


 I've had my tank since July.Which is about 5 months.And it only takes about a month to cycle.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Then what you need to test for is nitrates. Do one big water change to get them back down low and then do the weekly 4-5 gallon changes. 

When something changes in a established tank you can get still get ammonia problems, so it is still something to test for when you find a dead fish. Its very easy to start overfeeding a tank once you have fry.


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## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

shev said:


> By "concentration is higher in a fish digestive tract", are you saying the fish themselves seed the nitrifying bacteria in the tank? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works, as I've never heard that before.


I'm just talking organic matter. Bacteria live in large quantity in any digestive tract. Are some nitrifying? I would bet so. Nitrogen conversions happen in many ways during digestion.
What I'm saying is that the organic matter the fish put out as waste is significantly more valuable to a cycling tank than ammonia alone.


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Walmart.com has the API Freshwater Master test kit for $17.64, online order only, shipped site-to-store, no shipping fee. Just order it online and tell them what store you want it shipped to and go pick it up.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i guess this makes me a terrible fishkeeper;but........i have owned a couple of test kits..but nothing in the past 25 years.i have said it before..99.999% of the hobbyists that use test kits are getting really accurate results.even with the great new electronic meters;they get inaccurate results..titrating reagents have a relatively short shelf life.and shorter when kept in a warm place.so;if your test kit is more than 5 or 6 months old;you may need to buy a new one.and what do you clean your test items with??? tap water???..wrong stuff..tap water will leave residue that will later readings..
all test equipment must be thoroughly rinsed with pure deionized water..today you can also use RO water.and that goes for the meter probes too.go into any lab and use old reagents and clean equipment with tap water and watch folks have a fit..
now......my tanks do not stay up permanently..they often get completely torn down and scrubbed..i use mostly sponge filters..they never get rinsed in tank water.i put them in a bucket ant take them to the laundry tub and clean them with fresh tap water.
very often when i tear down a tank;fish go right back in right after it gets filled and dechlorinated.and it isn't just 1 or 2 fish..it might be a couple dozen or a couple hundred.and i really don't have no dollar fishes.and many of my tanks are overstocked beyond what one could imagine.
so why am i not losing hundreds of fish?????after all;i am doing everything wrong..heck..i don't even get burned fins from the ammonia.why is that??to be completely honest;i have no idea why.but is works well for me.
i am not telling anybody to throw testing out the window;i just don't think folks should be obsessed with it.you need to pay attention to to your tanks..learn as much as you can on your own by watching everything.you will never learn how to drive by sitting in the back seat.the smell of your tank water can tell you a little about what is going on in your tank.the water in a healthy tank should smell like dirt.simple as that for me.
don't do as i do....and don't do as i say.unless you are willing to experiment..
the fishless cycle thing has been around for many decades..i have done it a couple of times as an experiment only.but instead of using ammonia i used human urine..and it works ...actuallly just as well as ammonia does..but i don't have time to wait for a month or so for a tank to cycle.but hey;that's just how i am..always was a weird kid.
i may do everything wrong;but i am pretty good at it.lots of practice.
do what is comfortable for you.


this is a most amazing hobby.enjoy it to the max.let it be a part of you as well as you being a part of it.


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## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

shev said:


> Oh, youre right about #1 fishboy. I was just referring to what dave said, "ammonia high? do a water change. Nitrate too high? do a water change."


My point is this, what is your solution going to be if he does find high ammonia, nitrites or nitrates? You'll tell him to do a water change. Heck, all you've been telling him to do is test and do a water change. If the answer is going to be water change either way, why waste the time and money to test? 

Also, it's obvious you want to rule out water quality issues before moving on to any thing else. What is going to be your solution to a water quality issue? WATER CHANGE. Once again, why not skip skip the testing and just do the water change. If the fish get better, problem solved and he just saved $17.64. If the fish aren't getting better, it's most likely some sort of disease. Are there hobbiest test kits for diseases? "All right, who misplaced the ich test kit? Darn it people, I need this test kit to tell me if my fish has ich."

And like Fishboy said, if he really wants to know the stats of his tap water, contact your municiple water supply department, they will give it to you for free, they have to by law. And like Fishboy said, their equipment is far more accurate than any test kit you are going to get from the store.

Plain and simple, test kits whether paper strips or liquid drops are useless. If you do want to moniter pH and hardness, get a pH/TDS meter. The handheld ones can be picked up on ebay for $40. It is more accurate than your test kits and remains accurate throughout its life.

Elvis, ditch the test kits, do regular water changes, and if you choose, get a pH/TDS meter.


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## fishboy23 (Feb 18, 2006)

Also a side note folks may not have found...
Your water company very likely has it's quality reports available online. I found the ones for here at school and back home in less than 10 min. It's a good thing to check, even if your tap water has been good to you. Always worth knowing what other things are in there.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> remains accurate throughout its life


if and only if you "test the test" and use the calibration solutions to keep it accurate. My pH pen is off now after a year of being spot on. 

IME a bad water test result is often the only way to convince someone to change water. 

However, I use pH/TDS pens myself often and the other tests only rarely, so I can't disagree with you too strongly.

About two weeks ago I found a dead yellow lab. I just assumed water quality and changed 70% of the water. Next day, 2 more dead, repeat. If I had tested the water, I would have known it was fine and started looking for a disease sooner and maybe saved a few more. I ended up with 7 alive out of about 20. But the med worked and they are looking way better now.


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