# Is It Right To Keep Bettas In Small Vases?



## Chazwick

I've been doing a hell of alot of research on Bettas recently when i happened to stumble across a website with a review on Bettas... now they are known to be fine small-ish places (even if *i* don't agree with giving animals a tiny living space.. or keeping them *alone*), but what i went on next to read, disgusted me! There is actually a trend to keep Bettas - living, beautiful creatures, in vases. Now these are tiny, empty vases with no filter, heater or air pump (etc), no gravel.. no place to hide.. it is disgusting! And people that would do something like that to a living creature should put themselves out of their misery.. if they feel it's right to do something like that! I actually felt sick seeing them... 
Below are two pictures, in the second you may think 'wheres the betta?' it's that massive 6" creature squished into the vase, that cannot move. What kind of life is that for an animal? :sad:


----------



## maxpayne_lhp

Oh that this manner is not good... it blocks the oxigen over the surface that betta needs... I'm not really against keeping them in small vases but I'm totally against the above set-up ^^^
Anyway the options for the poll aren't really "wide" enough. None fits my choice... Add more!


----------



## AshleytheGreat

...and they eat the roots of the plant for food. lol

All in all I dont think its THAT bad of an idea.

Chazwick, you said you have problems with keeping fish alone, why? I mean some fish are predators, predators dont get lonely.


----------



## Im totally me

I've read a lot about this. Several times, when the plants died, they killed off the fish. I have also heard that some of the fish loose scales/fins, from rubbing on the plant roots. They also, can't live primarily off the plant roots, as most people say they can. 

I know a couple of people who lift the plants out to feed their Bettas, and keep everything clean, and have lots of space, so it really all depends on who is keeping the the Betta in the vase!


----------



## AshleytheGreat

I agree. My grandma feeds her betta in the vase with plant 2wice a week.


----------



## Hamm35924

the root may povide oxygen, but some scientist did this experiment where he removed the special lung thing of betta and then put them back in a tank full of oxygen, and they died very shortly after, an aoutopsy showed that they had died from lack of oxygen.


----------



## Ownager2004

I answered yes to your poll before I saw read your post...

I think those setups are fine given that you provide the betta with an area where it can breathe on the surface and a decent amount of water. But the ones pictured wouldn't be the type of setups I would think to be fine.


----------



## mlefev

It depends on the plant too. Peace lillies are notorious for producing toxins when their roots die off if the owner is not quick about cleaning dying roots. Keeping a betta in a smaller container is fine if you care for it correctly, but if you're a menace to the fish world you need to keep it in a larger container so the water conditions are more stable. 

I agree that you do not have enough choices for the poll.


----------



## sisofafishlover

Hi! I agree with Im totally me and mlefev, it all depends on who has the Betta, what plant they choose. 

I also don't think that there are enough options on the poll. 

My female Bettas like each others company, but I wouldn't put any other fish with my male Betta, he doesn't like anybody but me!


----------



## Alisha

I agree with you 100%! I have 2 bettas and one is in a 2 gallon with a filter and air pump and a hiding space, and the other is in a 2.5 gallon with a filter and heater and a hiding space. I had my second one, that is now in the 2 gallon is a 1/2 gallon bowl and he was so un happy, I soon relized I couldn't bare to see him like this. So I quickly ran out a bought him the 2 gallon, and now he is so much happier. And I know, it just sickens me when I see them in that small of a space.


----------



## solar-ton

i still dont think they should be kept in a vase.in the wild the puddles are bigger than that...WAY bigger and anyone who does it and neglects the betta(i.e. thinks the betta will eat roots and doesnt need to breathe from the top)is a fool bettas a carnivores and are much more succeptible to diesease that a betta in a 2 or a 5 gallon i have 3 bettas(2 female 1 male) in a 5 gallon and there isnt one point in the day where they arent active.


----------



## maxpayne_lhp

I don't think the plants can provide your betta... it even blocks its essential needs of oxigen. Imagin when you turn off the lights... the plant starts to take in oxigen... the zone above the water of your betty is a blockage... and brugh....


----------



## PatronusBestia

I used to have a betta in a 10 gallon. He was so happy to have all this space to swim around in.


----------



## waynside

i have some bettas in bowls...they are about a gallon each...but i do regular water changes in them...and they seem to do fine. i dont put any of the plant things in them though...and i let them see one another regularly so they can flare away...

havent had any problems...


----------



## Arlene

I cant beleive people are saying that this set-up is ok in their books. Im really sorry but this just really pi**es me off!. Ok, yeah sure the betta will survive and will probably live, but a human being kept in a carboard box would survive and live..does this mean it is ok? I know that their natural habitat is in small puddles of water blah blah blah, why not make them as comfortable as possible they are beautiful creatures and deserve much more than being stuck in a vase.


----------



## unthinkable90

Scientists are smart.. they have studied bettas and its fine to put them in small places! they might be more comfortble in small places..mabey they dont like big places..my fish hadly moves..she dosnt need lots of 100$ space filters and heat um i dont think its okay to stuf sooo big plants in there and give betta a place hardly to turn around..im against plants..i dont mind small places and i just feed them food not plants  heres a pic of my betta







:king: be happy


----------



## solar-ton

arent the puddels like 2 gallons or more lol humans will say anything to make it sound alright but deep down they know its cruel and wrong


----------



## Chazwick

Arlene i was pleased to read your post - because that's exactly how i feel.
My betta is in an 8 GAL tank (with a hell of alot of room, pretty tall) she is constantly swimming about, playing with the other fish and tagging along with the snail! Yet - those same 'so-called' scientists say that Bettas are best alone, huh? My betta loves company! It depends on the individual Betta.
As for the vase, it sickens me, and Arlene you took the words right out my mouth. They may be living in those small vases.. but no company, no space to explore, no hiding spaces.. they may be living, but that is not liFe. That is cruelty.. it's just another decoration for some snobs living room - because they think it looks good! I have one words for those snobs - Hey cheapos! Buy a tank!


----------



## cucci67

If you don't want to treat the fish fairly, then you can get a few plastic fishies, and put them in a bowl.


----------



## unthinkable90

okay noone believe scientists..ll they do is say stupid stuff and dont know anything right..i think it is better for bettas to be in bigger tanks but i really doubt in smaller places they r unhappy..like i said u dont know if they r happy or not in small places ..stop saying ur not treating it fairly,they r fine.by the way alot of bettas kill other fish if u put thm together.. so i doupt they r lonely :-x :withstup: okay .good


----------



## Jonno

well u can tell when a betta is unhappy because a happy betta will be more active but bettas are pred so are use to being alone and in the wild they have been found in foot prints filled with water so i think its fair if the betta has all the needed enrichment


----------



## BiographyGenius

It is easy to say that Bettas are fine and happy in vases, but not logical. They can live in vases, in small places, and you can live in your closet, with small rations, no problem, you won't be happy, but your only human! Well I do believe that Bettas are OK in petstores, I think that they deserve proper treatment after they are bought. And living in a vase, is not proper treatment. You might as well say that people shouldn't bother building barns for their horses, since horses were originally wild, they should be allowed to roam free, and never be fed!


----------



## Lexus

There are not enough choices on the poll.

If the vase is set up correctly the fish can live a full life. My bf had one in a bigger type vase and the betta lived 3+ years. The thing is the plant has to be properly cleaned, then make sure there is an inch or two of space between the plant plastic holder and the water so their is air (it even says so in the instructions). They do need to be feed on a daily basis and water changes need to occur. As long as the water changes, feeding ect is kept up on they will be fine. The room needs to be a decent temperature so the water temp doesnt drop too much. 
I've had a betta in a 10, 29, 55 and a vase and the betta in the vase blew more bubbles and lived longer than all the rest. With all the space in the bigger tanks they just got blown around by the current and harrassed by others. 
Although just because they can thrive in these doesnt mean that people who do have them set them up right. 
It also comes down to that the fact these are as large if not larger than what most breeders keep their bettas in.


----------



## mlefev

Thank you Lexus, I was trying to think of how to reply politely...good job girl. I kept a betta in a 10 gallon, nice heater, filter, everything. He got to where he would only swim around a little section of the tank and got weirded out whenever people were in the room. My new betta is in a 1 gallon bowl (mainly because I couldn't find anything larger). I don't use a plant because plants are hard enough to keep without jeapordizing your fish on top of it. 

My betta in his 1 gallon bowl is a happy camper. I keep worrying about him unnecessarily, because I love my pets. He's blowing bubble nests, eating like a pig, and loves people. I knew my landlord wouldn't let me keep another tank because the owner would flip, so I made an agreement that I could have him in the bowl. 

I bought him because he was the most goregous betta I'd seen in a fish store, and didn't want him to fall into the hands of some idiot that would kill him off in a week or two because they knew nothing about bettas (and worse didn't care that they were mistreating the fish). I change his water 2-3 times per week, feed him well, and now that he's completely adjusted to his environment he's in good shape. He never tries to jump out of the bowl, doesn't clobber himself on the sides, and loves to play with my fingers. He also comes up to other people that he doesn't know and flares at them until he gets a treat. That doesn't sound so terribly abused, now does it?


----------



## maxpayne_lhp

No it doesn't... your betta sounds to be the happiest betta... ha ha. Oh well not the most. I know most fish-keepers now aday have vast knowledge and kindness. Even a kid can say it's "funny" to keep a betta in small places. --you know what they mean through the word "funny" ^^ -- I just won't say that those who keep their bettas in a small pot don't have any knowledge at all. In fact, some went under research and toild that scientists say that it's ok to. But why bother? A larger tank always looks better! I hate the nano idea...
Still you have a right to keep your own points =)
Burgh didnt I sound funny?


----------



## Arlene

Im not against bettas being kept in small tanks where they have room to move..turn..swim and be adventurous, however the pic that was posted on this thread is no where near that. The betta in that pic has no choice of where it wants to go. I dont even think a mad scientist would agree with that set-up.


----------



## unthinkable90

mine? he has plenty of room to turn..it is alot wider than u think..all u see is the front.Go ahead put your bettas in 1000 gallons! im sure they will be alot happier in that! 10 gallon ! omg that is soo smalll they need at least 1 million gallons..You people r lacking knowledge OKAY?? :wink: UndErStAnD? A LITTLE BOWL IS FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD PEOPLE MAKE THEMM AND WHY DO PEOPLE PUT TAGS ON THEM THAT SAYS BETTA BOWLS??? I GUESS EVERYONE IS STUPID BUT U RIGHT:?? WELL TURN IT AROUND THAT SOUNDS right.. :grin:


----------



## sisofafishlover

BiographyGenius (lol, my sister!) don't you think it depends on the person keeping the Betta? I mean, some keep enough space and all. The one in the picture provided by Chazwick was not in good condition! Lol, that was ridiculous. But I think that it really depends on how you set it up. Some set ups are OK, not the best though.

Its agreed that they look more beutiful in larger tanks! Like the Kings in castles! Lol, my Betta loves his 10 gallons. He has lots of plants, so he can hide if he wants, but he prefers to show off. So it just depends, unfortunatley, everybody is different! Agreed on that one!!!


----------



## Arlene

Unthinkable90 I wasnt speaking about yours...i was speaking about the pic of the vase of flowers with the betta in it..the pic that was posted with the thread in the beginning. I dont know why you jumped to the conclusion that i was speaking about yours???


----------



## Chazwick

unthinkable90 said:


> mine? he has plenty of room to turn..it is alot wider than u think..all u see is the front.Go ahead put your bettas in 1000 gallons! im sure they will be alot happier in that! 10 gallon ! omg that is soo smalll they need at least 1 million gallons..You people r lacking knowledge OKAY?? :wink: UndErStAnD? A LITTLE BOWL IS FINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY WOULD PEOPLE MAKE THEMM AND WHY DO PEOPLE PUT TAGS ON THEM THAT SAYS BETTA BOWLS??? I GUESS EVERYONE IS STUPID BUT U RIGHT:?? WELL TURN IT AROUND THAT SOUNDS right.. :grin:


I'd hate to ruin your fun, love, but they put 'tags' on half gallon tanks advertising for goldfish tanks!! Would you put a goldfish in a half gallon - no - you wouldn't, as i wouldn't either. They put these interesting fish on the front to ADVERTISE their product and SELL. If people see a tiny tank, with a picture of a happy cartoon Betta on the front for a tenner.. and a nice 10GAL for 60pounds... then people are going to go for the cheaper one! It's just to get sales, thats the point.. duh!


----------



## PatronusBestia

Unthinkable90 said her fish hardly moves.......
Well duhhhh......... Where would it move too? The bowl is so small that one little flap of the fins takes it from one side to the other.
My betta was in a 10 gallon with feeder guppies. He loved swimming around and catching the occacional guppy baby for a snack.
About the puddles in the wild: even if they're shallow they certainly have alot more surface to them then those bowls, which means more oxygen for the fish.
They can still swim around and do "fishy stuff". Putting them in a small bowl reduces them to the miserable existence of a decoration! 
No living being, wether it can voice its misery or not, should be treated in such respectless manner!!!!
As Cucci67 said, get a plastic fish. It'll be happy even in the tiniest bowls, wether you feed it, have light or oxygen.


----------



## Lydia

Do you think the people who label those bowls "betta bowls" really care about the fish? Because if you do, I have some bad news for you. They don't. Plain and simple, they are in the business to make money, not make good homes for bettas. Now with that said, I have kept a betta in a 1 gallon bowl before and it swam around alot and always seemed "happy" to see me. But I kept up on the water changes and had live plants in there, and basically made it the best betta home I could. So I think whether or not bettas should be kept in bowls depends alot on whether or not the person is doing water changes. Granted, even if you are doing water changes, I don't think bettas should be kept for long in a small pint sized bowl or something like that.


----------



## unthinkable90

eww u feed your guppies to bettas..now i think that is sick


----------



## (RC)

guppy babies make great Betta food.


RC


----------



## S.CALI

I think it's ok as long as the fish can swim somewhat. When I go to wal-mart I seen them in those little cups. Now that is not fair.


----------



## tsel

One of my boys lives in a vase, partially because the high neck keeps him from jumping. But I'm crazy about keeping the water clean - it gets replaced with purified water from the store every week.

Yeah, I'd like to keep him a big tank. But I live in a small space, and on a small budget - what makes me nuts are the people who don't take care of the fish they get, no matter what size space they're living in.


----------



## con771

Bettas will survive in a vase and it really doesn't hurt. however it it always good to provide ample room for your fish, if for no other reason other then to help improve their quality of life. Another downfall of a vase is that they require consistant cleaning and monitoring.


----------



## Lara

Bottom line for Betta's is this: they originate from a very hot humid part of the world. They like densely planted, heated waters, and are transformed into entirely different creatures when given a habitat in which they can thrive. Contrary to popular opinion they do not like small spaces, stagnant water or company from other fish. In the wild they move from paddle to paddle when they become cut off from a primary body of water, they don't naturally hang around in polluted water, and they like densely planted homes in which they can hide (that's the only sense in which they enjoy small spaces ie. those created by plants). Obviously it is nice to provide the ideal for our fish but they will survive in less than ideal circumstances. If your fish is lying dormant on the bottom of the tank/bowl/vase it simply isn't a happy fish. If you happen to live in a hot area you may be able to get by without a heater but most hot areas still have cold winters! Part of the responsiblity of owning a pet is understanding and meeting the needs of that pet, I do not consider fish a lesser species and therefore I do not believe that it is ok to put them on display in a vase to meet our own selfish visual desires. But that's just my opinion....


----------



## hogan7

Puttin a betta in a small vase and a vase witha plant are 2 completely different things. The plant does not give any oxygen to the betta, it may oxygenate the water, but betta have a labrynth organ so they breath air just like you and me, so the plant blocks that breathing pathway. Also betta THRIVE in small areas, there breading grounds in the wild are very small, and if the water is changed at least every 2 days, or is part of a rack system the betta will grow and thrive usually faster than larger tanks. look at all the major breeders of the day all keep their betta in tanks no larger than a pint glass


----------



## krazykid90

unthinkable90 - I think I might know why your fish hardly moves. Fish are cold-blooded and Betta's are tropical. That means that your fish NEEDS temperature higher then room temperature to be happy and healthy. Since he doesn't have that temperature, his body slows down. 

I know this because I rescued a friends Betta from a bowl like yours. She wanted to get rid of him because he wasn't doing anything. I put him in my 10 g tank (at the time he was there by himself) and he had a blast. He loved to swim around the plants, playing with the leaves etc. For a fish that previously didn't move, it was sure a big difference.

I think fish are much happier in larger spaces. I would NEVER put a Betta in less then 5 gallons, and I would never put him in an unheated environment. 

Also, I think it is unfair for you to mock those of us who actually care about giving our fish a happy home. I don't want to come across as rude, but your attitude and what you are saying REALLY reminds me of the people who actually fight their fish in this area. They twist the history of the fish, and twist their needs so that they can feel justified in treating their fish certain ways.

hogan7-I think what breeders do and what pet owners do are very different things. As pet owners we are supposed to care about the well-being of our fish, while breeders usually care just to develop certain types of coloration, fins etc. That's why I could never breed Betta's, I like them too much. It would kill me if I owned one that was kept in a sub-standard environment.


----------



## hogan7

krazy have u seen a well built betta barracks. the water quality is amazing, plus it is heated, and usually breeders will put some type of plant if not at least a bannana leaf in the container. If this situation was no ideal to betta growth and health why would breeders do it? Dont say it is bad for betta because if it was no breeder would do it if they wouldnt get the fin growth they wanted. It is very possible for betta to be kept in small vases and they live in these vases quite happily, and grow to just as good of standards as you can in a 5 or 25gal tank


----------



## Chazwick

Yes, they live in the vases happily because they know otherwise, which is cruel depriving them off a much bigger enviroment of which they can explore and swim (to a degree of length) a 1GAL vase is just sick... and for 'decoration' which animals are not.
As for the rice paddies they live in the wild...








Heh... doesn't look so small, does it?
:fish:


----------



## Lara

Hogan7, are you kidding? You seem to be suffering from the delusion that all breeders are ethical, compassionate creatures! Yes, some are. But many aren't! Growing a fish to look good and be physically healthy does not necessarily involve meeting the requirements for their long term happiness! Breeders sell their fish and hopefully aspire to have them in a different setting when they reach their final destination. I know from experience that beta's completely come alive when given a large environment to explore (along with warm water etc). I would not believe this as passionately as I do if I hadn't witessed it myself on numerous occasions. As I said earlier, a fish will survive in basic settings but responsible fish owners at least try to aspire to a higher standard of care than that!

THANKYOU Chazwick! Limited in space? Definately not! Great pic for a reality check!


----------



## hogan7

Chazwick thats a very pretty picture do you know how high that water actually comes up? a little more than an inch or so above your ankle heh .... doesnt look so big now does it. Also so there are very limited betta splendens in the wild today and if there are some they are plakats its easier for them to swim than with long flowing tails of even the crapiest of betta the VT. Look at the betta most commonly found in the wild today the betta smaragdina and how short his fins are. If these fish were meant to have larger areas their fins would b much smaller. Also in the wild a betta will have a zone that is usually not much larger than his own bubble nest that he will guard and call his territory which is only during breeding. 

Lara long term happiness? haha please ive kept countless HM males of mine for longer than 2+ years in these conditions and were in good breeding shape for 1 1/2 years which is almost un-heard of. Also i do not agree with you at all that betta come alive in larger environments. Ive kept many betta in large community tanks and they have ALWAYS died early and i could not help but believe that it was from all the stress of higher water flow from the bigger filters, and the harder time it was for them to get up and down to the top of the water for a breath of air then down to the bottom again. These fish are labrynth fish, they come from very small areas in the wild, they live in terrain where at max from bottom to top it is 2 feet and thats for about a week in the rainy season. SO in closing it may be nice to keep betta in larger containers for decoration so you can think your really helping him out, but your actually not helping as much as you think. Yes he is closed up in a smaller vase but if the water is good, and the temp is good then the betta will live just as well in that circumstance as if he did in a 5gal tank. ID LOVE to see real evidence to back up claims that shows betta will prosper more in a 5g tank.


----------



## DUSTIN323

I have a male betta in a 10 gallon tank with 5 twin bar platies. He moves around alot and seems more happy than the ones at a pet store, but I can't hate on someone who does keep one in a vase because I don't know if it is right or not whether a scientist says they can live in there fine which no doubt they can people keep them for years in a vase with proper care a scintist can't say if it is right or if the fish is really enjoying being . So my bottom line is I don't keep them in vases, it wrong how the petstore keeps them in what? a half acup of water but I can't really say anyone is wrong for keeping one in a vase though I don't think it is right in my mind. :-o


----------



## solar-ton

lol im saving that one and printing it to blow off the jerks at stupid mart he he he....and DEATH TO ALL FISH ABUSERS HA HA HA HA...no not really just knock some sense into them.. hard


----------



## Lara

hogan7 said:


> Chazwick thats a very pretty picture do you know how high that water actually comes up? a little more than an inch or so above your ankle heh .... doesnt look so big now does it.


Well, actually the depth isn't as relevant as the surface area of the water. That's a lot of space they have to swim! 


> Look at the betta most commonly found in the wild today the betta smaragdina and how short his fins are. If these fish were meant to have larger areas their fins would b much smaller.


I believe the long finned, varieties are more a case of selective breeding. Should all short finned fish be kept in jars?


> Lara long term happiness? haha please ive kept countless HM males of mine for longer than 2+ years in these conditions and were in good breeding shape for 1 1/2 years which is almost un-heard of. Also i do not agree with you at all that betta come alive in larger environments. Ive kept many betta in large community tanks and they have ALWAYS died early and i could not help but believe that it was from all the stress of higher water flow from the bigger filters, and the harder time it was for them to get up and down to the top of the water for a breath of air then down to the bottom again.


I did not suggest that it was an appropriate solution to keep Betta's in a community tank, in fact I am generally against this notion. If the tank is heavily planted in the correct manner for a beta, filter flow will not bother them. If the tank is correctly oxygenated the beta does not require frequent trips to the surface, the labarynth is a secondary breathing mechanism. I suggest it is likely that some stress not relating to the size of your beta's tank was responsible for his early demise. :-( 


> SO in closing it may be nice to keep betta in larger containers for decoration so you can think your really helping him out, but your actually not helping as much as you think. Yes he is closed up in a smaller vase but if the water is good, and the temp is good then the betta will live just as well in that circumstance as if he did in a 5gal tank.


Well, your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine, unfortunately I disagree with yours, but that's life hey!

Phew, this thread is very interesting! Bit like this :chair:


----------



## hogan7

> Well, actually the depth isn't as relevant as the surface area of the water. That's a lot of space they have to swim!


That sucks that they have all the space to swim and usually will only stay in a square no bigger 1ftx1ft. In thailand they way the breed is they will pick the males right outta the water keep them for the fighting season and then put the males back into the same area of the patty usually in around 10ft by 10ft lot, this gives the usual 10-20 males the breeder will have for fighting even less space. This is a very small area and its in the wild. Also how is depth not relevant??? are you serious unless the tank is around 7in deep, and a foot long, with a barebottom or mushy clay bottom, and a drip filtration system (exaclty what all breeders use) , and maybe a random spoke of rice coming up you will never repeat the enviromet as the wild. Adding any type of filter besides a drip filter adds more harm to the betta, many of the time it rips fins, and makes them use extra effort when moving around there aquarium. This is VERY unrealistic since the patties where they live are normally very calm water. Also betta love to stay at the top of the tank usually but ive found in filtered water with a HOB filter they usually have to stay towards the bottom because of the high motion of the water on the top and they have to struggle to stay up there




> I believe the long finned, varieties are more a case of selective breeding. Should all short finned fish be kept in jars?


This is untrue, long finned varieties are only really enjoyed by the US, Europe, and Australia. Everywhere else including asia the tropical fish capitals such as Hong Kong and Tokyo, and Bangkok(sp?) LOVE plakat type betta, and even wild types. And so they are much more selectively breed.




> I did not suggest that it was an appropriate solution to keep Betta's in a community tank, in fact I am generally against this notion. If the tank is heavily planted in the correct manner for a beta, filter flow will not bother them. If the tank is correctly oxygenated the beta does not require frequent trips to the surface, the labarynth is a secondary breathing mechanism. I suggest it is likely that some stress not relating to the size of your beta's tank was responsible for his early demise.


What makes you think betta love heavily planted tanks? the rice you see in the patties is basically just a tube going up to the serface. Also IMHO filter flow has a huge effect on bettas life, ive never had a betta in my filtered tanks (i use to keep my male breeders in 2.5gal tanks) and none of them ever lived more than a year. However in my old barracks system i had males live for 2.5 + years. Also it is very untrue that the labarynth organ is the second breathing mechanism, totally false. Betta have VERY underdeveloped gills compared to other fish, partially because they are not used as much and because there flaps are used when flareing.


----------



## krazykid90

Well, you could also look at what some people do with other animals.

For instance the people who buy a dog, and put it on a short little chain in their back yard and let it live there year round. Dogs need exercise? Well, that's ok he can just run in circles. Hot summers? Hey, dogs pant for a reason. Cold winters? They have fur coats to keep them warm. The dog will live, but will he really thrive and be happy? Nope. Just because he lives to be 14 when he's kept like this, doesn't mean that life is worthwhile to him. He might appear active, but do you really think that he's enjoying life?

Then there is another case of a girl who owned a horse. It was a cute little quarab mare. They kept her in a small stall, with practically no bedding. They justified that saying that in the wild horses didn't have any bedding; they just slept on the ground. They put her out once a day for an hour in a small paddock to let her graze. They didn't feed her any hay or grains, because in the wild horses eat grass and nothing else. Oh, and of course horses never clean up after themselves so it's not important for you to muck out the paddock and the stall. The poor mare ate away at her own tail and faeces in an attempt to stay alive. It took quite awhile before she was finally rescued.

Betta’s are tropical fish. How can you keep a tropical fish in a small bowl with no heater? How can you call it right to put a fish in a small bowl where he can hardly move? How can you justify putting him in a bowl with no filtration system? Just because they live to their expected life span (much like the dogs that are kept as described above do) doesn’t mean that they are having a happy life. You have to look at the quality of their home and their life, not just if they are surviving. 

You say that Betta’s don’t like plants and that they don’t swim around a lot. I’d like you to come over and watch my boys swim around. They have a blast, swimming through the whole tank. They like the plants so they can hide and play with them. The only time he really stays in one space for a long period of time is when he is resting or eating. 

I guess you guys who like to put them in little bowls feel justified, and it doesn’t seem like anything we are saying is changing your point of view. I really haven’t been moved by any of your evidence to change my perspective though. You haven’t really mentioned how it is right to put tropical fish in a cold-waters environment. You also have presented false evidence saying that Betta’s are happy when they aren’t moving. I say this is false because once a healthy Betta is in a home he is happy with; you’ll see him moving LOTS. And I’m yet to see how filters disturb them. The current is quite mild, unless you’re an idiot and use a filter way to powerful for the size of your tank or you let half the water evaporate. The current doesn’t make it so my fish cannot comfortably swim by it. In fact I once owned a fish that would use the current like a treadmill. He would swim right up next to the filter so that he was staying in one place. Then he would let himself go and gently be drifted away “Look at me mommy, I’m swimming without moving my fins!”, just to do it again. 

As far as the barracks, I’m not a fan. I’ve seen too many accidents with them to support them. Also, I feel putting a fish in such a small container is the same as putting a puppy in a closet. I suppose it’s just because I get really attached to my fish, and I want the best for them. The thought of giving them a sub-standard home kills me. I’ve always allotted at least 5 gallons to each of my Betta’s. If I have to split up a tank, the most I’ll do is put a divider in a 10-gallon tank so that each boy gets 5. Occasionally I’ll have two females in one 10 g together.


----------



## hogan7

> Betta’s are tropical fish. How can you keep a tropical fish in a small bowl with no heater?


You can easily heat water in a barracks system. And it is very easy to keep a 78-80 degree temp for betta in that system.





> How can you call it right to put a fish in a small bowl where he can hardly move? How can you justify putting him in a bowl with no filtration system? Just because they live to their expected life span (much like the dogs that are kept as described above do) doesn’t mean that they are having a happy life. You have to look at the quality of their home and their life, not just if they are surviving.


I dont think a small bowl is a good home unless the water is changed daily. Also betta dont need filtration as they dont breath the water in the bowl all they need it to b is clean of ammonia and nitrates and nitrites which can easily be done by frequent water changes. Also, if you say that betta are JUST getting by and just surviving then how in hell does a betta grow those great HM caudal fins? in just little jars are these fish now well taken care of then?



> You say that Betta’s don’t like plants and that they don’t swim around a lot. I’d like you to come over and watch my boys swim around. They have a blast, swimming through the whole tank. They like the plants so they can hide and play with them. The only time he really stays in one space for a long period of time is when he is resting or eating.


No offense but how can you tell that there playing? you think betta have huge interactions with their enviroment. These animals are not dogs they can barely be trained and basically live off of natural instincts. Playing is something i doubt they do. Also i never said betta do not like plants, hell i have kept a few planted tanks with a betta in them before, and id say he was just fine in that set up. However in the wild as everyone keeps talking about in this post they live in rice patties(sp) and well there are random stalks of rice shooting up but thats more like a tree trunk to us. There home is not a think area of forestation.



> And I’m yet to see how filters disturb them. The current is quite mild, unless you’re an idiot and use a filter way to powerful for the size of your tank or you let half the water evaporate. The current doesn’t make it so my fish cannot comfortably swim by it. In fact I once owned a fish that would use the current like a treadmill. He would swim right up next to the filter so that he was staying in one place. Then he would let himself go and gently be drifted away “Look at me mommy, I’m swimming without moving my fins!”, just to do it again.


That or he is struggling to stay afloat then when he finally gets exhausted he falls since he cant stay up at the top of the water like they normally would enjoy. He could have been saying "**** im falling this sucks" how do you know? are you a betta whisperer. Also my filters are just fine for my tanks thanks, and trust me if u keep betta in drip filtration systems rather than a HoB, UG, or sponge you will see how much calmer the water they like. Also my betta get more than enough exercise since i train most my plakats for fighting ( i dont however fight them, but it is an art form) and let my betta usually flare for around 15mins 5-7times a week. All my males are healthy boys.


> As far as the barracks, I’m not a fan. I’ve seen too many accidents with them to support them.


what is an accident that you have heard from a barrack system? that isnt because of the human fault rather than the system?


----------



## krazykid90

> You can easily heat water in a barracks system. And it is very easy to keep a 78-80 degree temp for betta in that system.


You will note that at that point I specefically said that I was referring to BOWLS not, to barrack systems. My only comment about the barrack system was at the end of my post.



> I dont think a small bowl is a good home unless the water is changed daily. Also betta dont need filtration as they dont breath the water in the bowl all they need it to b is clean of ammonia and nitrates and nitrites which can easily be done by frequent water changes. Also, if you say that betta are JUST getting by and just surviving then how in hell does a betta grow those great HM caudal fins? in just little jars are these fish now well taken care of then?


Fine, maybe they don't need filtration system, but I still perfer it in my tanks. Also, I have yet to see fish grow great fins in small containers. Every breeder I have gone to keeps the fish with the most beautiful finage in tanks or in the barrack system you described. The ones I have seen in little jars are miserible. Also, I don't think that it is right to clean a bowl every day. I'm sure that would be stressful to the fish (although I've never done this, so I wouldn't know from first-hand knowledge)



> No offense but how can you tell that there playing? you think betta have huge interactions with their enviroment. These animals are not dogs they can barely be trained and basically live off of natural instincts. Playing is something i doubt they do.


I do believe that fish are capable of playing. I had one fish that would move colored rocks on the bottom of the tank so that they were sorted by color. He would also push a ping-pong ball around the top of the tank. I say that they play, because they ARE interacting with their environment. They aren't just listlessly swimming by, "oh, look, a plant. Oh, look, a plant." They are weaving through the leaves, and they do find favorite spots to be. For isntance, my current fish has one particular leaf that he loves and spends much time around. As far as not being trained, well, I'm not too sure about that. I've seen goldfish that learned how to swim through mazes on mythbusters, so I mimiced that with my Betta's. I've taught a few of them that when I put a hoop in the water he should swim through it. I admit that these are useless tasks, I did them merely to prove to friends that fish aren't as boring as they thought.



> That or he is struggling to stay afloat then when he finally gets exhausted he falls since he cant stay up at the top of the water like they normally would enjoy. He could have been saying "**** im falling this sucks" how do you know?


Ummm...did you even read what I said? You will note that I said that he was CALMLY and GENTLY drifted away. I said that the current was barely mild, he was in NO way struggling to swim! Why do you think he was exhausted? He swam in front of it for about 5 minutes, drifted off, then swam by it for 5 more minutes, drifted off etc. He was in a 10 g tank, if he was exhausted he could have quite easily gone somewhere else to swim. He constantly chose to swim there, and I am sure it is because he was enjoying it. You know, it has been proven that fish do have memories that last at least severel weeks, so why would he be so stupid as to do something he disliked over and over again? I'm not saying that anything is wrong with your filters, there's no need to get defensive. I'm talking about some people who think the bigger the filter the better. "Oh, if I get this one for a 50 g tank and put it in 10 g tank then maybe I won't have to clean it." Trust me, I've seen it too many times. I'll take your advice on the drip filtration, and I'll look into it ASAP. 

I respect you for training the art of fighting but not fighting. It hurts me when I see people fighting, but I have learned a lot from fighters. I agree with you that it is an art form, and I have adopted some methods from fighters for my own fish. I'm not saying that your fish are 'fat and lazy' or anything of the like. 



> what is an accident that you have heard from a barrack system? that isnt because of the human fault rather than the system?


I now recall that it was breeding nets I hate. The only bad experiences I have seen with the barracks where do to pure neglect. I know that barracks and breeding nets are very different, I don't know why I confused the two.

Also, just so you know, the only time I am referring to one person is when I quote from their message or use their name. There is no need for you to get so defensive because I was not referring to you, I was referring to many people. I was referring to all sorts of lurkers that might be reading this thread as well as people who are participating in it. I'm not saying that you aren't taking care of your betta babies, I am simply stating my opinions.


----------



## Lydia

.........................................


----------



## hogan7

> You will note that at that point I specefically said that I was referring to BOWLS not, to barrack systems. My only comment about the barrack system was at the end of my post


Ok when i talk about bowls i dont mean i am an fan of them. But i do believe you can keep a fish in there and he will be fine. Just you must change the water everyday. This means usually having two bowls (my method) this way one can get cleaned the first day, and have him in the other and vice versa and switch jars or bowls off daily. Other than that i believe it does cause a lot of stress on the fish and they become very hard to clean. I developed this strategy after putting a 2month DT in a jar after just cleaning it, i put warm water in but it was much different than the water he was use to, he went into a state of shock and died after going nuts. Since then i will not use the 1 bowl method ( and in all honestly i dont use bowls really either)





> Fine, maybe they don't need filtration system, but I still perfer it in my tanks. Also, I have yet to see fish grow great fins in small containers. Every breeder I have gone to keeps the fish with the most beautiful finage in tanks or in the barrack system you described. The ones I have seen in little jars are miserible. Also, I don't think that it is right to clean a bowl every day. I'm sure that would be stressful to the fish (although I've never done this, so I wouldn't know from first-hand knowledge)


I agree and like i said earlier i use to keep all my male breeders usually 3-5 in 2.5gal tanks by eclipse with a hood and filter. Just they all died relatively early compared to my males that i kept in barrack systems. There is no scientific evidence to back up that claim that they die earlier just something that i found with two years of that method.



> Ummm...did you even read what I said? You will note that I said that he was CALMLY and GENTLY drifted away. I said that the current was barely mild, he was in NO way struggling to swim! Why do you think he was exhausted? He swam in front of it for about 5 minutes, drifted off, then swam by it for 5 more minutes, drifted off etc. He was in a 10 g tank, if he was exhausted he could have quite easily gone somewhere else to swim. He constantly chose to swim there, and I am sure it is because he was enjoying it. You know, it has been proven that fish do have memories that last at least severel weeks, so why would he be so stupid as to do something he disliked over and over again? I'm not saying that anything is wrong with your filters, there's no need to get defensive. I'm talking about some people who think the bigger the filter the better. "Oh, if I get this one for a 50 g tank and put it in 10 g tank then maybe I won't have to clean it." Trust me, I've seen it too many times. I'll take your advice on the drip filtration, and I'll look into it ASAP.


Uh thats just like your opinion man ( someone please name that movie), but i guess you do have a different opinion and well gratz, haha two different schools of thought thats why we come to forums to piss eachother off hahaha. I have just taken to many biology of fish classes, and marine biology classes to really think as highly of fish i guess.



> I respect you for training the art of fighting but not fighting. It hurts me when I see people fighting, but I have learned a lot from fighters. I agree with you that it is an art form, and I have adopted some methods from fighters for my own fish. I'm not saying that your fish are 'fat and lazy' or anything of the like.


Totally agree, there is an art to the fighting of betta, and it actually can be a very low risk sport if delt with right. However, no one really deals correctly with it. Most fish in fight rarely get perminate wounds due to great care of their owners. HOwever it is not something i promote.



> I now recall that it was breeding nets I hate. The only bad experiences I have seen with the barracks where do to pure neglect. I know that barracks and breeding nets are very different, I don't know why I confused the two.


LOL another topic i wish to stay away from because i am also a huge non-breeding net fan.

But yes this agreement has become totally opinion based and really has no end from here on out. SO krazy what really matters is both u and i and everyone here really enjoys their betta, and cares for it in the best way possible. As long as a healthy betta is the output that is all i care about no matter what way you keep it. IN the hobby of fishkeeping there is no right or wrong way to do things. Also krazy just asking out of curiousity what types of betta do you keep?


----------



## Cichlid Man

Bettas are used to living in small puddles in the wild when the water dries up in the summer. However they do cover a lot of water the rest of the year, which is why people find it exceptable to keep bettas in vases for only a few months or even days at a time, and not throughout their whole lives. Also bettas are a fish that can adapt a lot faster when moved from tank to tank and find it relatively unstressfull, comepared to siver dollars who's environement hardly changes in the wild, that's why when you introduce a silver dollar into an aquarium it will be fairly skittish and may not even eat for a few weeks, as apposed to a siamese fighting fish that will be ready to chase off any threat as soon as you move it into a new tank, even a small bowl. A betta is a fairly adaptable fish when it comes to water conditions and environements because it's evolved over thousands of years to survive poor water conditions in the wild.


----------



## Georgia Peach

well, Im not a Betta person - they are nice, but just not my thing. Anyhow, I dont beleive in keeping any fish of any kind in something small like that. its cruel.


----------



## krazykid90

I mostly keep rescue Betta's. I find people who don't want there's anymore, and take it from them. That way no money exchanges hands and they aren't getting any benefits from neglecting the fish. Most of these Betta's were culled because they aren't really all that great lol. However I don't breed, so I don't really care other than the fact that I can enjoy them. 

The reason I'm so against bowls and vases is because I have taken many fish from those environments. I've always noticed a huge difference in the fishes behavior once they go from their one gallon unheated bowl, to a nice tank. 



> I have just taken to many biology of fish classes, and marine biology classes to really think as highly of fish i guess


Here's a few articles which may raise your opinions of fish.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/3189941.stm 
http://www.animalsentience.com/news/2003-08-31.htm
http://www.berkley-fishing.com/new/story.cfm?WhatsNewId=3&Position=3
http://www.fishinghurts.com/feat/fishlives/ - granted, this one is by PETA, so you might want to take everything they say with a grain of salt. However when I was in the university library I read a journal article which confirmed much of what they said. 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/thisweek/story/0,12977,1034866,00.html
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/media/current/fish.htm

Don't just discredit your fish, it has been proven that they are much more intelligent that we originally thought that we were. If you view them with that light, then you will notice it. As I stated in a previous post, I had a fish that would re-arrange small rocks so they were sorted by color. Obviously in his mind he distinguished the different colors and decided that they belonged together. Whether he was doing it for fun, or simply aesthetic purposes, I really don't know.


----------



## kelicom

*the mud puddle myth*

I know this thread is dated but I just wanted to add that this mud puddle myth is really getting annoying. This gets passed on and on and is so silly. Do people think the fish arrive in the mud puddles by Divine Descension? No, they arrive from large bodies of water like canals, streams and swamps and when the water recedes, sometimes they get stuck in mud puddles. Mud puddles are just the easiest way to capture them.

Please people, stop passing on this myth. Fish like to swim, birds like to fly, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.

The small vase setups are cruel--period. Aquarium hobbyists even refer to them as "betta torture chambers" when these small bowls, vases, etc are put up for auction.


----------



## anasfire23

Ok I agree with the whole keeping a Betta in a vase with a plant is cruel, specially those ppl who believe that the betta won't need feeding or regular water changes beacuse of the plant blah blah, plants do provide oxygen, but it's released through the leaves not the roots. All that's released through the roots is waste eg nitrogen which is deadly to any fish in high amounts. But as for the debate that it's wrong to keep them in small spaces there's gotta be a limit on how little is too little. I keep my betta in a decorative vase (without a plant) and it holds approx 2lt, he has a plastic plant and some gravel to rest on and is quite happy in it. I don't think anyone should consider keeping a Betta in anything less than 1 lt of water. I mean the water changes alone would keep you busy! But the fact is betta's can live for quite a while out of water, as long as they are kept moist. My friend went out one night and came home to find her dog had knocked the betta tank over and the fish on the floor, she went to clean it up and throw it away only to find it was still alive and it's still going strong 6 weeks later, so smaller amounts of water aren't really gonna be too much of a problem as long as it's kept clean. In closing I think it really does depends on the person who's keeping the Betta, I mean someone well informed on their needs and requirements isn't going to keep them in a vase with a plant. It's clear that these ppl who do so have been misinformed and should really research their pets before purchasing them as all responsible pet owners of any animal should.
Ps. Below is the 'vase' I keep my Betta "Hathor" in. as you can see he clearly has an ample amount water to swim around in.


----------



## Cichlid Man

anasfire23 said:


> Ps. Below is the 'vase' I keep my Betta "Hathor" in. as you can see he clearly has an ample amount water to swim around in.


Thanks for sharing.


----------



## samyboy

so who fancies living in the cardboard thier computer came in? no?

how about for the rest of your life too?


----------



## Cichlid Man

samyboy said:


> so who fancies living in the cardboard thier computer came in? no?
> 
> how about for the rest of your life too?


If you feel that way, then I suggest you get rid of your goldfish, as keeping them in a tank that size is even worse.


----------



## dfortunato

Evreytime I go to the LFS, I see all those bettas cramped up in little plastic cups,so you buy one,take him home, give him a nice 5 or ten gallon tank,and you see gratitude on their little fishy faces


----------



## leafgirl115

I ususaly see died ones. or half dead ones. I have no idea where ill get my betta....


----------

