# Can i keep a betta in a 5 gallon??



## Pac-Man

i have an extra 5 gal. laying around and was wondering if I could house a betta in it. I know ppl keep them in vases but it doesnt seem like the bettas like it too much. SO can I keep it in a 5 gal??? and also, how do i make sure the betta i buy is healthy and young?? thanks :wink:


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## Vivid-Dawn

A 5 gallon would be _much_ better than a vase, or a quart jar (which somebody mentioned on this forum once), or even one of those little tanks made just for bettas. My betta at work is in a 2.5 gallon square tank... and my co-worker has the typical hexegon shape that's barley over a gallon.
Personally, I like to give 'em as much room as possible... I did have my betta in my 10gal. but my guppies picked on him.


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## google

anything that is over a gal is the best. under 1 gal is pushing it...........


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## DevarioDevario

IMHO 5 gallons is the minimum to keep a betta in.


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## (RC)

IMHO 32oz is just fine for a betta if you do 100% water changes every 48hours.


RC


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## aaa

google @ Thu Apr 14 said:


> anything that is over a gal is the best. under 1 gal is pushing it...........


quart jar is not bad if you keep up with water change unless you are keeping giant betta. i keep my juvies in 32 oz with daily water change. they are growing good.


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## aaa

DevarioDevario @ Thu Apr 14 said:


> IMHO 5 gallons is the minimum to keep a betta in.


but that's impossible for a betta breeder to keep 100 5 gallon tank. take way too much space and cost too much. 1 gallon is fine if you keep up with water change


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## Pac-Man

any1 else got input??


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## osteoporoosi

I wouldn't put any fish under 10g, but you have propably alredy noticed that :wink: 
A 5g tank is hard to keep stabile, and you would have to do lots of small wc:s to keep the water good.


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## Pac-Man

ay caramba...... i just knew it was gonna be osteo... :wink: always there....first with the lemons now this... You have to give me some credit though right?? i mean its not like im gonna be keeeping in a 32 oz. cup!!!!


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## osteoporoosi

I'm always after you :twisted: 
No, 5g isn't the worst kind of jug to keep a betta in...


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## (RC)

I have 100+ bettas right now in 32oz cups. 80 of them are part of my Barracks system.


RC


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## aaa

i keep some of my betta in 32 oz cup. i do 100% water change everyday. i know your point of keeping betta in 10 gallon is good idea for beginner. yes, one 10 gallon tank is cheap, but think about how many 10 or 5 gallon tank one betta breeder need according to the theory. if i have a 10 gallon tank, i would do a spawn instead of keeping only one betta in there. plus i keep my adult in quart or gallon jar. as long as you keep up with water change, i don't really see a problem.


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## anasfire23

I think I've totally got the conversion for gallons to litres wrong hey, coz I've got a tank that holds 12ish litres and I've done the conversion and it says it's only a 3 gallon tank, which is rediculous coz it's in my opinion pretty roomy for one betta and takes quite a bit of effort to carry to the sink to clean out. And some people are saying to have a betta in a 5ga tank min. I'm struggling to find space for the apparent 3ga tank I have 2 of my betta's in at the moment (which I also had a successful spawn in), where on earth would people keep 5 or 10 ga tanks in a residential home for hobby purposes (not talking breeding or anything) let alone keep another four 5ga taks for my other males?!? someone said to me to keep goldfish in nothing less than 100gallons...by my calculations that would be 378litres and a tank that size wouldn't even fit my arm span let alone in my house!. I really wish I knew the proper conversion rate and if I am converting it correctly I think all of you who say you should keep betta's in 5ga or 10ga tanks are mad. What the hell are they gonna do with all that space? They aren't exactly really active fish and not to mention the effort and energy they would exert getting to the surface to breath! anyhoo..later all.


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## osteoporoosi

US gallon = about 3.8 liters.
So 12 liters= 12/3.8= 3.15789 gallons

Goldfish grow huge(fantails 30cm), and are schooling fish. In my opinion they should be only for ponds, or very very large tanks.


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## mlefev

I had mine in a 10, and it swam happily from end to end and top to bottom. I don't know if it's necessary to have a very large tank, but I wouldn't like to live my life stuck in something the size of a bathroom. I think a 5 gal would be just fine.


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## anasfire23

But you live in Finland where it was made illegal to keep fish in small tanks. If it weren't illegal your entire country probably wouldn't have been infulenced into that belief. I believe that a fish will only grow as large as it's surroundings will let it. But in saying that I wouldn't keep a goldfish in anything less than the 3ga tank I have. I actually did start out with 3 red caps in that tank, but hadn't let the filter cycle enough so they all died due to high amonia levels. Thats when I began using it for my betta's. I even managed to get them to spawn in it also so the theory that they need 5ga min to breed is bull.

Anyhoo.. GTG later


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## osteoporoosi

Anasfire; stunting is painful and shortenes the fishes lifespan. if the fish doesn't have enough space to grow, it can slow down for a while or even stop growing. But it can't continue like this forever, and after a while their intestins start growing again. This leads to painful abnormalities and twisted spines, and after a while to death. 
And on the other hand, fish cannot act normally in a jar, and the water gets bad quickly.
Figure: if a puppy dog would be put into a tiny box and be fed normally, it would be considered cruel.
There is a reason for every law :wink:


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## (RC)

There is no theory that you need a 5G tank to breed Bettas. Many overseas breeders use much smaller containers. I've had a pair spawn in a 32oz jar after the female jumped into the males jar. A 3G tank in much to small to raise Goldfish in.


RC


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## osteoporoosi

well breeding is another matter, I meant keeping fish permanently on jars.


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## Pac-Man

well, im not keeping it in a jar


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## Celeste

i've owned bettas all my life and i've never kept one in anything bigger than a 1 gallon bowl. no heater, no filter. i do a full water change once a week, feed them once a day, skipping one day a week to let their system clear out, i always have a plant in the tank, and i've had some live for 3-4 years that way and they're perfectly happy.


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## Fishfirst

Back to the real subject here, Pac-man you are providing a great home for that betta... I'd definately put it in a 5 gallon tank and have no quams about space issues.

Also anasfire a 3 gallon tank is pretty darn small... I have a 125 gallon tank for my saltwater fish and would even give up the space in my APARTMENT for 2 or 3 of these sized tanks... When I move into my house, the house is going to be built with a 475 gallon tank and a 125 gallon refuigum... with a 20 gallon breeding tank for my benggai cardinalfish fry to live in... I also have piranhas which are in a 55 gallon, a 10 gallon community, and 2 7.5 gallon tanks, that I plan on keeping. Right now in my apartment I have 280 gallons total. When I get my house I will have a minimum of 700 gallons.


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## lulu

In response to all those saying that it's fine to keep certain fish in smaller tanks, how do you know that the fish is perfectly happy??!! They can't talk, but if they could then i'm sure they would say that they prefer more space to being cooped up in a small area. Until we are able to read their minds i think that we should give them as much freedom and space as we can. The same goes for any pet! If space in your home is limited then i wouldn't get fish...simple!!


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## Celeste

well, based on color, activity level, water perameters, and overall health, my bettas did very well in 1 gallon bowls. did you know that bettas are originally from stagnet rice patties in thailand? they eat mosquito larvae and sit in shallow, small, stagnet pools in the wild. they are extremely hardy and can do just fine in relatively small bowls with a little bit of mantinence, like weekly water changes. i wouldn't keep any other type of fish in a bowl that small, but bettas are uniquely suited to it.


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## Fishfirst

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...=/images?q=rice+patty&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=G Small?? not necessarily. But it is true that our fish "talk" to us when we look at thier behavior, general color, water parameters, and most importantly, LIFE SPAN. I've had mine in a 3 liter jug his whole life, he's going on two years now and looks great, is active, eats fine, etc.


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## Pac-Man

hey fishfirst i like your avatar, its cool. wow i had no idea this topic would still be around, i have no idea it would get so popular. and by the way its the official one month anniversary of this thread :fun: anyway, im hoping to set up my 5 gallon tommorow and begin cycling it.


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## aaa

osteoporoosi @ Mon May 09 said:


> well breeding is another matter, I meant keeping fish permanently on jars.


well, when you breed betta, pretty much they live in jar rest of their life. anyway, the beginners should keep in a larger tank, i think that's good for them because it less likely to go wrong, but i won't do it because it cost too much and i don't see a problem in quart jar as long as you keep up with water changes.


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## osteoporoosi

Humm.. Actually professional breeding with those jug racks isn't the only way to breed bettas. You can house a betta in a 10g tank and breed it in a smaller one once in a while.
Celeste: wouldn't the water rates and especially temperature jump up and down with 100% water changes only once a week? Have you noticed anything like that, or is you apartment very warm? And like Fishfirst said, rice patties are not small, like usually peope think.
Pac-man: what have you decided to put in the 5g?


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## aaa

> Humm.. Actually professional breeding with those jug racks isn't the only way to breed bettas. You can house a betta in a 10g tank and breed it in a smaller one once in a while.


well, actually is doing the opposite. keep in a jar and breed in a 10 g tank. one spawn of betta can produce at least 20 fish(after cull) and if i get 20 5 gallon tank, that cost a lot of space. if you use jar, you can fit in more jars and a few more tanks to have a more productive fishroom.


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## Pac-Man

hmm... i still havent decided quite yet. im srry to say that the betta may not work out do to the filter ill be using is an aquaclear mini. could i still put a betta in the tank if it used this filter??? i understand bettas do not like a strong  current so that is why im asking this. i really dont have alot of money to spare right now to get a new filter, so if the betta dosent work out i might just stick to some apple snails or dwaf frogs. it is cycling at the moment though.

Anasfire:5 or 10 gallon tanks really arent that big. you make them sound like massive elephants.a 10 gallon tank can easily fit on a dresser or something, probably even two(youd better get a pretty strong dresser, though. and anyways i have something to say about your goldfish. you said u had 3 RED CAPS IN YOUR 3 GALLON TANK. thats pretty bad... thats like one gallon a fish. they wouldve died even if your tank was cycled. 3 red caps=60 gallons min. a 3 gallon tank just cant support the kind of waste that one goldfish produces, let alone 3. you simply needed a bigger tank.


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## Celeste

osteoporoosi @ Sat May 14 said:


> Humm.. Actually professional breeding with those jug racks isn't the only way to breed bettas. You can house a betta in a 10g tank and breed it in a smaller one once in a while.
> Celeste: wouldn't the water rates and especially temperature jump up and down with 100% water changes only once a week? Have you noticed anything like that, or is you apartment very warm? And like Fishfirst said, rice patties are not small, like usually peope think.
> Pac-man: what have you decided to put in the 5g?


what i do is the day before i plan on changing the water, i fill a large pot or bowl or something (usually my big cook pot) with filtered water (i have a filter on my faucet) i then add some dechlor based on the manufacturers directions, and i let it dit open for 24 hours. the water comes to room temperature and the chlorene evaporates. i leave my bettas at room temp, which is between 72 and 75. they can actually survive at lower temps, but they will be less active and may loose color. to breed however, they need it closer to 80, but for just pets (i don't breed bettas, i only have two males right now) 72-75 is just fine. mine are active and healthy at that temp, even though they wouldn't be able to spawn.

so once the water has come to room temp, i fill a small bowl with the new water, scoop the betta out of the bowl with a net, and put him in the small temporary bowl. i then pour out all the water in his old bowl and swish it around under the tap and clean out all the un-eaten food and poop that falls into the rocks at the bottom, scrub off any algae that may have begun to grow (sometimes i put them in a window sill and the algae just goes nuts!) then i fill up the bowl with the new water, rinse off the plants that were in the bowl under the tap, and pop the betta back in. i don't use any stress coat, never have in my life. i've had bettas live for 2-4 years doing that once a week.


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## Fishfirst

Thanks pacman about the avatar... Its a pretty cool pic if I do say so myself


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## Pac-Man

yah i think so too... :fun: 

anyway could i keep the betta in the 5 gal. with the aquaclear mini??? or would it be too much current??


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## osteoporoosi

You could turn the filter aginst a wall to minimize the current.


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## Pac-Man

turn it against a wall???


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## osteoporoosi

Yes, point the flow against the backwall of the tank. Or put bogwood or something else in front of the filter to brake the current.


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## Pac-Man

ok thanks :fun:


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## mlefev

When I had my betta in its 10 gal, I used a regular UGF, but kept the 2nd hose attached to the splitter and just let it blow out half strength through the one filter I had going. My betta would still actually go play with and attack the bubbles, so while a low current is good, they don't seem to hate it quite as much as I've seen people claiming.


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## Celeste

the theory is that because they are such weak swimmers with their inneficient, long, floppy tails, that too strong of a current would just blow them around the tank.


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## Imbrium

I think it's more because in their natural habitat the water is relatively still. My short finned plakat doesn't like fast current any better than my long finned fish.


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## aaa

if i were you, i would use a air drive sponge filter. they cost only like $4


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## Lexus

My betta in my 55g he enjoys playing in the water current from the filter and in the bubble wand. He makes it around quite fine and when tired has his own spot to hang.


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## Bettaman

DevarioDevario said:


> IMHO 5 gallons is the minimum to keep a betta in.


I agree. I keep all my Bettas in 10 gallon tanks. I think it is essential to at least keep them in something large enough to accomodate a good heater because controlling their water temperature is key to keeping them healthy. I have a few in 20 gallon tanksand they do well there too.


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## Celeste

Bettaman said:


> I agree. I keep all my Bettas in 10 gallon tanks. I think it is essential to at least keep them in something large enough to accomodate a good heater because controlling their water temperature is key to keeping them healthy. I have a few in 20 gallon tanksand they do well there too.



did you not read what i said? i have my new betta in a gallon and a half vase. no heater, no filter. he's active, flares his gills and darts around the bowl whenever i put my finger near the glass. he started making a bubble nest the day after i got him. i do a 100% water change once a week, feed him once a day, skipping one day a week. i have owned bettas probably as long as you have, more than 10 year actually, probably closer to 15 years (i'm only 19, btw, but the first pet i remember having is a betta and cats) and this is the way i have ALWAYS kept them. most of my bettas live this way, happily, for 2-4 years. they are active, colorful, make bubble nests. i consider those to be signs that they are healthy.


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## Damon

osteoporoosi said:


> And like Fishfirst said, rice patties are not small, like usually peope think.


Where do these theories come from. Bettas don't come from rice patties.
This was taken from a friend of many and many others on the site (where are you Davian?)

"I've been seeing some info that I could easily disagree in in some of the betta boards that I am in and I would just like to break them. 

Over the week, such info would be: 
1. bettas could see each other all the time in the wild 
2. bettas need to see each other (i.e. need company) 
3. bettas only flare against their opponents in the wild 

Now just note, if I'm attacking anything its these ideas which I find false and not those who posted them so if I would end up offending anyone, my apologies but just note that I was dealing with the ideas only and not you as a person. 

at any rate, bettas could not see each other all the time in the wild. Visibility in wild betta habitat (which is not really the rice paddy, and even in a rice paddy visibility is not that good either) is very low, even nonexistent at times (i.e. when it rains). Bettas don't see each other that often in the wild and their encounters usually end with the following endings: 

1. If its a female and the female is ready, then its a spawn. 

2. If its a female and its not ready then its either driven away or worse killed (this is the wild and not a breeding tank where the fish keeper could take out the female if it is already getting beaten up) 

3. If its a male then its not just flaring, no no no flaring only applies to ornamental bettas which usually have glass in between them. Any real betta would act like a fighter plakat in the wild and as I said in another post on this board (I think) its a constant war in the wild, defending teritory, losing territory invading new territory and the cycle repeats itself through out the bettas life. 

So... if the encouter is a male fight ensues, not just a flaring fight but a fight with some biting and some damage. The outcome could be anywhere from the defender or the invader being driven away or in some cases, one of the males end up dead. Just note, unlike fighter plakats who should by virtue of breeding fight to the death (though it really does not reach that point in the arena) wild plakats do run when they feel enough pain/damage. 

The following links are to plakatthai.com, a site owned and ran by a Thai named Precha. The site has some info on fighter plakats and fish fighting so I just linked to pictures of the betta habitat for those readers that don't want to go into fish fighting because they find it offensive etc. 

I posted the same links in fishforums for those who visit there. 

Anyway, as a backgrounder, the pics are from Mahachai, a place in Thailand where Betta Mahachai was named after (though it is not really a new species.) The habitat is a mangrove forest, the more common and to me the more real betta habitat (rice paddies and irrigation canals are just places that the bettas flow into thanks to human intervention) A backgrounder on Precha, he's more of a historian and though he gives very good history, his genetics could be questionable but the site is quite good if you don't find fish fighting offensive. 

Anyway, after the long ramblings, here are the pics. If you could honestly say that bettas see each other a lot in that habitat well... let me just say that I don't think they do: "

http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/closeviewhabitat1.jpg 
http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/handcatch.jpg 
http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/bubblenest.jpg 
http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/mahachaihabitat.jpg 
http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/mahachaimatch.jpg 
http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/bettaecology.jpg 
http://www.plakatthai.com/mahachai/inhand2.jpg


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## Bettaman

Celeste said:


> did you not read what i said? i have my new betta in a gallon and a half vase. no heater, no filter. he's active, flares his gills and darts around the bowl whenever i put my finger near the glass. he started making a bubble nest the day after i got him. i do a 100% water change once a week, feed him once a day, skipping one day a week. i have owned bettas probably as long as you have, more than 10 year actually, probably closer to 15 years (i'm only 19, btw, but the first pet i remember having is a betta and cats) and this is the way i have ALWAYS kept them. most of my bettas live this way, happily, for 2-4 years. they are active, colorful, make bubble nests. i consider those to be signs that they are healthy.


Please do not be offended by my comments as I did not mean to imply it is never good to keep Bettas in something smaller than a 5 gal. tank. Obviously you have found a good system that works well for your Bettas and your room temperature does not widely vary. But I have heard way to many nightmare stories about people losing their Bettas because they could not keep the bowl temperature consistant or who didn'tr realize how often they need to do water changes in these tiny bowls. If you are really into Bettas I recommend you purchase a ten gallon tank and put one in there to see how much happier a Betta can be in a much bigger home that can afford a lot more decorations, a water current from a filter, and maybe even a few other fish to keep him/her company.


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## zenyfish

Bettaman said:


> Please do not be offended by my comments as I did not mean to imply it is never good to keep Bettas in something smaller than a 5 gal. tank. Obviously you have found a good system that works well for your Bettas and your room temperature does not widely vary. But I have heard way to many nightmare stories about people losing their Bettas because they could not keep the bowl temperature consistant or who didn'tr realize how often they need to do water changes in these tiny bowls. If you are really into Bettas I recommend you purchase a ten gallon tank and put one in there to see how much happier a Betta can be in a much bigger home that can afford a lot more decorations, a water current from a filter, and maybe even a few other fish to keep him/her company.


Yes. Bigger is better. 

When I put my short-fin male from a 10 gal. to 25 gal., his personality changed! 

He went from a very aggressive fish that flared and attacked other fish to a contented, happy fish that ignored other fish.


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## Celeste




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## Pac-Man

eek a betta vase.. no offense but i just dont like betta vases...they dont seem that great for the betta, especially when they have like a lilly on top, now thats bad. but yours actually looks ok


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## osteoporoosi

Celeste; Could you post your spesific water rates from the vase?


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## Celeste

don't know. i've never tested the water. it's a 1 and a half gallon vase (i used a milk jug to measure) with some glass pebbles at the bottom. there's some kind of aquatic lilly that grows from a bulb in the bottom and another type of potted aquatic plant that i don't know the name of. i know i have hard water, and i know it's around 7PH, maybe a little higher or a little lower, but it's usually pretty neutral. other than that, i don't know. as i've said, i do a 100% water change once a week. the temp in my appartment is usually about 75, but i've kept bettas in vases with no heaters in rooms that were 68-72 degrees and they did just fine.

i really just don't think bettas are as fragile as you guys all keep saying. they're extremely adaptable and hardy.


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## Imbrium

It sounds to me like you're doing just fine Celeste. Bettas are hardy, and you are certainly changing the water often enough. You could look into a small heater, but if he is colored up, not sluggish, and eating fine I wouldn't worry about it to much. He might appreciate more room, but it's not a big deal. I think some people are way to quick to criticize, especially when it comes to bettas. Don't take it to seriously.


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## Pac-Man

nobody critisized, it just seemed as though she was offended. no hard feelings


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## Imbrium

I didn't mean you Pac-Man. I just get tired of people being jumped on for keeping bettas in tanks smaller than 5-10gal.


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## Pac-Man

i know u didnt mean me.. i was referring to other people. srry for the misunderstanding


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## aaa

zenyfish said:


> Yes. Bigger is better.
> 
> When I put my short-fin male from a 10 gal. to 25 gal., his personality changed!
> 
> He went from a very aggressive fish that flared and attacked other fish to a contented, happy fish that ignored other fish.


because there is much more space for other fish to run. to me, i rather have a very aggressive fish that flared and attacking other fish than a betta that do nothing because that's NOT what they suppose to be. when they flare and ready to attack, that means they are alert and healthy. if they just sit around and doing nothing, i would start worry about them because he is not acting like what is he suppose to be.


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## aaa

Bettaman said:


> Please do not be offended by my comments as I did not mean to imply it is never good to keep Bettas in something smaller than a 5 gal. tank. Obviously you have found a good system that works well for your Bettas and your room temperature does not widely vary. But I have heard way to many nightmare stories about people losing their Bettas because they could not keep the bowl temperature consistant or who didn'tr realize how often they need to do water changes in these tiny bowls. If you are really into Bettas I recommend you purchase a ten gallon tank and put one in there to see how much happier a Betta can be in a much bigger home that can afford a lot more decorations, a water current from a filter, and maybe even a few other fish to keep him/her company.


i have to agree with a few of your point. beginners usually don't master feeding and water changing such and the bigger then more stable it is. 

but i have to kind of disagree about temperature theory. yes, sudden jump of temperature is bad. fish will die. but if the temperature change SLOWLY through out the day, i believe is ok. my fishroom temperature jump from 78 degrees in day to 70 at night. in wild, the temperature change much more than this. yes, thailand is tropical cilmate, but it doesn't mean the temperature won't change much. it is 90's in day in summer and 70's at night in summer as i have been to thailand.

other than that, i think it is a good suggestion for all those beginner out there.


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## mlefev

Imbrium said:


> I didn't mean you Pac-Man. I just get tired of people being jumped on for keeping bettas in tanks smaller than 5-10gal.


Only reason mine ended up in a 10 gal instead of about a 2.5 was because the 10 gal was cheaper. I didn't think anything over a gallon would be too terribly cruel, but when I saw the prices, I decided he was getting a fishy palace versus the overpriced fishy condo. 

I honestly congratulate people that can keep them in anything smaller than 2 gallons though...I would have to bow to their expertise. I know I would have nothing but trouble if I tried something that small. Especially with the darastic temperature swings in my apartment. It can be 90 in the day and 60 at night depending on the time of year...talk about bad insulation.


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## zenyfish

aaa said:


> because there is much more space for other fish to run. to me, i rather have a very aggressive fish that flared and attacking other fish than a betta that do nothing because that's NOT what they suppose to be. when they flare and ready to attack, that means they are alert and healthy. if they just sit around and doing nothing, i would start worry about them because he is not acting like what is he suppose to be.


I said he ignores other fish. I DID NOT say he sits around and does nothing.
If fact he swims around much more than when he was in a smaller tank.

How do you know what they are suppose to act like? Have you observe them in the wild? Your fish is defensive because he doesn't have enough space. You think wild bettas live in 1 gal puddle of water?


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## osteoporoosi

...or even in a 10 gallon puddle.


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## Celeste

the problem with the reasoning in the last two posts is that NO fish would ever be found in the wild in containers as small as we keep them in captivity. but in the wild, water perameters, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, temp, ph, are all controlled by nature. and the larger the body of water, the more stable the conditions. BUT in captivity, WE can control all those water perameters with water changes, chemicals, filters, and heaters, so fish can survive comfortably in much smaller containers in captivity, than they could in the wild.


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## zenyfish

Celeste said:


> the problem with the reasoning in the last two posts is that NO fish would ever be found in the wild in containers as small as we keep them in captivity. but in the wild, water perameters, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, temp, ph, are all controlled by nature. and the larger the body of water, the more stable the conditions. BUT in captivity, WE can control all those water perameters with water changes, chemicals, filters, and heaters, so fish can survive comfortably in much smaller containers in captivity, than they could in the wild.


No way! More comfortable than in the wild? You are delusional. There is no way to dulplicate the wild environment in an aquarium, the water change is massive. How many gallons of water flow by a fish in a river or lake? Fish have evolved to suit wild conditions, it's in their genetics ... and it does not include a tiny vase.

That's why some species of fish will never spawn in an aquarium. Fish in an aquarium will not grow as big, be as colorful, or as healthy as they are in the wild.


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## (RC)

The Betta splendens in 99% of homes haven't had a wild fish in there background in many years. The fish we keep couldn't survive in the wild because of the bright colors and long fins. They would be slow moving targets for bigger fish and animals.
Betta Splendens get bigger and are much more colorful then the ones found in the wild because we have bred them to be. Most of the fish you buy from the LFS have been imported and have lived almost thier whole life in 8-32oz jars before they were imported.


RC


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## zenyfish

(RC) said:


> The Betta splendens in 99% of homes haven't had a wild fish in there background in many years. The fish we keep couldn't survive in the wild because of the bright colors and long fins. They would be slow moving targets for bigger fish and animals.
> Betta Splendens get bigger and are much more colorful then the ones found in the wild because we have bred them to be. Most of the fish you buy from the LFS have been imported and have lived almost thier whole life in 8-32oz jars before they were imported.
> 
> 
> RC


Of course you can line breed an animal to be bigger, just as you do for color and finnage ... that's not what I'm talking about. The same fish in the wild will grow larger than their aquarium counterpart.

It takes longer than "many years" to change genetics. What's in their genetics tells them they need more than 1 gal of water. These fish have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years. Because they were raised in jars, they've changed genetically?


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## (RC)

I've raised 1000's of Bettas over the last 13 years and a total of 5 of them have every had more than 32oz jars to live in. What makes you think something in a Betta's genetics tells it that it "needs" more than 1 Gal of water ? I've had them breed in 32oz jars so they don't seem to think a small amount of water is a problem. My fish all seem pretty happy flaring at the fish next to them and getting food handed to them twice a day. You can keep your fish in any size tank you want, but I'll still bet mine have at least the same if not better water conditions in 32oz container since they get 100% WC's twice a day.


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## Celeste

zenyfish said:


> No way! More comfortable than in the wild? You are delusional. There is no way to dulplicate the wild environment in an aquarium, the water change is massive. How many gallons of water flow by a fish in a river or lake? Fish have evolved to suit wild conditions, it's in their genetics ... and it does not include a tiny vase.
> 
> That's why some species of fish will never spawn in an aquarium. Fish in an aquarium will not grow as big, be as colorful, or as healthy as they are in the wild.



you like totally misread what i posted..... i didn't say MORE COMFORTABLE. i said that because we constantly monitor the water conditions in captivity, captive bred and raised fish can be comfortable in containers smaller than the bodies of water their wild counterparts would be found in. you'd never find a wild betta in a 10 gallon puddle of water in the wild because the water would be muddy and disgusting and full of bacteria and with no filter, circulation, airation or temp control. but in captivity, you can easily keep a betta in a 10, 5 or even 1 gallon tank because we control all the water perameters and keep them constant and comfortable for a betta to live in.


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## zenyfish

(RC) said:


> I've raised 1000's of Bettas over the last 13 years and a total of 5 of them have every had more than 32oz jars to live in. What makes you think something in a Betta's genetics tells it that it "needs" more than 1 Gal of water ? I've had them breed in 32oz jars so they don't seem to think a small amount of water is a problem. My fish all seem pretty happy flaring at the fish next to them and getting food handed to them twice a day. You can keep your fish in any size tank you want, but I'll still bet mine have at least the same if not better water conditions in 32oz container since they get 100% WC's twice a day.


Because 1 gal is not the condition we find them in the wild ... I'm only saying bigger is better because it duplicates closer their natural environment. Albeit it's never possible to fully duplicate it in an aquarium. 

Even though breeding is a sign of how content fish are, it's also true that some species' reproductive instincts are stronger and will overcome all other instincts. So just because they breed, one cannot necessarily conclude space is not an issue.

As a breeder, I understand your limitations. But with bettas (and all fish), I stand by bigger is better.


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## Pac-Man

not to mention celeste, that ammonia, nitrites, and even nitrates are virtually non-existant in the wild. Just look at lake malawi, where the mbuna cichlids reside. there are virtually none of these chemicals in the lake.


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## (RC)

Pac-Man said:


> not to mention celeste, that ammonia, nitrites, and even nitrates are virtually non-existant in the wild. Just look at lake malawi, where the mbuna cichlids reside. there are virtually none of these chemicals in the lake.


The same holds true for my fishroom.


RC


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## Pac-Man

lol, u got the ocean in your own backyard, RC


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## (RC)

No ocean. Just a system that lets me do a 100% + WC on 90 jars in less then 5 minutes.


RC


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## Pac-Man

hehe, thats pretty cool nonetheless!


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## Damon

Gotta love a barracks system.


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## (RC)

I changed my Barracks over from a continous flow to a zero recycled water system. All the fish now get 100% fresh water at least twice a day. So far I'm much happier with the new setup. Since there is zero water exchange between the jars there is very little change of one sick fish affecting another one. It also uses much less electricity and cuts down on evaporation from the system. 


RC


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## aaa

zenyfish said:


> I said he ignores other fish. I DID NOT say he sits around and does nothing.
> If fact he swims around much more than when he was in a smaller tank.
> 
> How do you know what they are suppose to act like? Have you observe them in the wild? Your fish is defensive because he doesn't have enough space. You think wild bettas live in 1 gal puddle of water?


if he act healthy, then he is fine. i never observe the in the wild. yes, he is defensive, but that's not because of lack of space. if you think anything less then a gallon is crude to betta, i bet you can sue the farm in thailand because they keep betta in a tiny container. as a matter of fact, betta will not live in 1 gallon of water, but i don't think betta will stop defense their space when a tank is big either. they will still establish a pack order no matter if you keep them in a 100 gallon tank. they are fighting for as much space as possible and female(yes, even though she is not here). plus you can't have a 10 gallon for everyone of many betta i have, right? plus the domestic betta is very different from wild type too. the domestic long fin betta struggle to swim from one side to another. a 1 gallon container make their life easier.


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## zenyfish

aaa said:


> if he act healthy, then he is fine. i never observe the in the wild. yes, he is defensive, but that's not because of lack of space. if you think anything less then a gallon is crude to betta, i bet you can sue the farm in thailand because they keep betta in a tiny container. as a matter of fact, betta will not live in 1 gallon of water, but i don't think betta will stop defense their space when a tank is big either. they will still establish a pack order no matter if you keep them in a 100 gallon tank. they are fighting for as much space as possible and female(yes, even though she is not here). plus you can't have a 10 gallon for everyone of many betta i have, right? plus the domestic betta is very different from wild type too. the domestic long fin betta struggle to swim from one side to another. a 1 gallon container make their life easier.


I'm not advocating 10 gal tanks per fish for breeders, not practical at all. I mean if one had the choice ...

Let me put it this way. A betta is likelier to be more content and happy in a larger rather than a smaller tank. 

1. It more closely mimics their wild environment.
2. A larger tank will be more likely to have stable water parameters.

Now someone could put a betta in a 100 gal tank and not change the water for a year as opposed to RC who changes twice a day. Specifically there will be exceptions ... but generally, I think the probabilities are with me.

Male fish will defend territory ... but they may not attack other species if they felt secure in a larger environment?


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## Pac-Man

aaa said:


> if i were you, i would use a air drive sponge filter. they cost only like $4


well, it looks like the current from the power filter is a bit much for him. When he gets under it, it thrusts him down, and although he dosen't hit the bottom, I can see he's strugging with it. I've tried to stop the current with lots of plants, but its not working too well. Where can i buy one of these filters for $4? Petsmart? PETCO?


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## Fishfirst

petsmart has several of these I believe. And generally speaking, bettas usually don't kill other species of fish unless they are gouramis (same family). Usually the betta is the one getting picked on in a community tank because of the flowing fins it has.


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