# Community



## DervMan (Jan 26, 2005)

Charlie and I have been thinking about what fish we want in our tank.

To recap, our Twisted Vallis is now growing (_we've added a carbon dioxide injection system and we're using liquid plant food, wow in combination these two rock_) and we've added a java Fern on a little bit of bogwood.

The water is at 11 degrees hardness and the pH is around 7.6 to 7.8 (_somewhere about here, the colour could be either on the water test_). No ammonia or nitrite, everything seems to be working just fine so I think we're ready to add our first fish.

Now I really want a shoal of Zebra Danios, twelve or more, 'cos I think they'd suit the 48" long, 24" deep and 12" wide tank. And I think they look great as a shoal too. :fun:

But I can't go adding twelve Zebra Danios at once, heh! 

I like Platys and Swordtales for sure, and I'm also a *huge* fan of Lace Gouramis.

Charlie loves Rainbow Fish.

So I'm thinking, add a couple of female Platys and a male, or a pair of Lace Gouramis, or Rainbow Fish, or... wha'? Any suggestions?


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

How many gallons is that?


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## BlueAmbist (Feb 1, 2005)

About 59.8 US gallons.


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## Fish n chips (Jan 19, 2005)

[fade:fffd74a2c1]Corys are good starters,i started of with a group of cardinals,then zebras.Im not saying zds are bad thats just the way I introduced them :king: [/fade:fffd74a2c1]


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

Swordtails,platies,guppys or mollies would fit in your tank because of your water rates, but I wouldn't add danios with them. Danios prefer a bit softer, cool water.
How about danios, paleatus corys and neon tetras?
They all love cooler water (68 or so).


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

Swordtails,platies,guppys or mollies would fit in your tank because of your water rates, but I wouldn't add danios with them. Danios prefer a bit softer, cool water.
How about danios, paleatus corys and neon tetras?
They all love cooler water (68 or so).


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## Mr Aquarium (Jan 18, 2005)

> How about danios, and neon tetras?
> They all love cooler water (68 or so).



I have Never had Danios or neons in water that cold,,,,,,
Never below 74* all the times I have ever had them...

If I had a 60g to play with,,,,,I would go corys, danios, neons,
and a mess of other tetra's.........chinese algie eater or two,
Plant and driftwood it up nice and let er fly.....


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Danios are very tolerant and can be considered cool water but deffinitely not neons. Those temps will kill them. I don't care for gouramis in planted tanks. Not active enough for me. A nice school would be my opinion. Rummynosed tetras, Cardinals (if you like them), Rasboras, there are so many schooling fish that look wonderful in a planted tank.


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## MB75 (Jan 24, 2005)

Platies, guppies, mollies and swordtails prefer hard and alcaline water.

Tetras and many apistrogrammas and gouramies prefer softer, acidic water.

So it is better not to mix them. 

Zebra danios would make a nice and lively school in your tank, 12 of them sounds really good. They prefer cooler water so a heater is not necessarily needed.

Neontetras also like cooler water, cardinal tetras like the warmer water. They look alike but this is a difference to know in their environment.
In good conditions, soft acidic water, room temperature, neon tetras live for many years - up to 6 years in my tank. In warmer water their life span tends to shorten.

Many gouramies then again prefer the warmer water.

I suggest either zebra danios and neons and some ottos (which also prefers cooler - room temperature - water), OR cardinal tetras and dwarf or honey gouramies.

Planted tank sounds great, all fish prefer real live plants, just like in their natural habitat.

Very good of you to ask and think first, and only then buy, and not visa versa!


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## DervMan (Jan 26, 2005)

Thanks for the advice!



> Very good of you to ask and think first, and only then buy, and not visa versa!


We want happy fish! I daresay this whole aquarium experience has been a bit expensive, but this is mainly because we're determined to do it as right as we can.

Mistakes so far? Yeah. Mixing sand and gravel, only getting 80 watts worth of illumination... The sand / gravel thing I'll have to watch but we can cope with the lights.

We'd picked the fish because these should do well in a hard warer, alkaline environment. As I understood it, most Tetras (_not all, but certainly Neons and Cardinals Tetras_) prefer soft, acidic water. Our tap water is hard and I'd rather get fish to suit the water rather than try to treat it, running the risk of screwing it up and having unhappy fish.  

I've always always fancied a shoal of Zebra Danios, and I figure with some decent space in the middle, twelve to fourteen should look ace. And of course they'll be happy! :king:

To be fair we're flexible. We don't have any fish in there yet, just the plants (_and some growth!_) and we're at the planning stage. There's always the temptation to go out and get something just to have fish in there but we'd rather plan it.

Temperature wise, it's currently set to 78°F and room temperature varies quite a bit, typically around 70°F or so. But we live in a cool climate (_York, northern England, the United Kingdom_) and although the tank is sheltered, I expect the temperature to drop a little at night when the room isn't being heated.


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## MB75 (Jan 24, 2005)

So nice to see people who give it time, in stead of rush!  

A shoal of zebra danios is certainly a wonderful sight. With some thick bushes of plants they even tend to spawn often - though it is another story how to save the fry. :wink: 

So maybe a bunch of zebra danios who like to swim in the top half of the tank, and to go with them, a group of 6-8 corydoras of one species? (don't mix cories they prefer their own kind and deserve to be with their own species rather than 1-2 individuals of 5-6 different species)
Then you would have something going on both in the top half of the tank as well as on the bottom. There are many really beautiful corydoras, my favorite above all is _corydoras sterbai_.
But - cories deserve sand substrate to keep their sensitive whiskers in good condition.

An option for corydoras would be ottos which also likes to be kept in groups (at least 4).

Good luck!


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

Neons live in waters 20-24 celcius, did I go badly wrong with the fahrenheits  ?
These kind of things really makke me look like a jackass..


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

celcius is about right doesn't that come out to be round 76-80F? Thats the right temp if it does


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## DervMan (Jan 26, 2005)

Oooooh...

Change of plan. We've been given some bogwood, so now I'm going to soak, plant with Java Fern, leave for a week or two, check water, and then see what we should be keeping...


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Here's a good site that gives you some aquascaping basics. Good for keeping your tank balanced.
http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/aquascapingprinc/aquascaping101.html


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

We started a new fishtank in Sept and finally have it fully stocked, with 4 zebra danios, 3 rosy barbs, and 2 hillstream loaches. Also a good selection of plants. The zebra danios were our first fish, and they are really great. They are pretty much indestructible, surviving really quite embarassing levels of ammonia and nitrite, and they are continually darting about the tank, chasing one another.

We are taking a very different approach than your are, however. We are keeping the tank as low-tech as possible. No CO2, no liquid fertilizers, no heater even. We live in Cambridge UK, and the tank temp varies between 20 and 22C. For example, we also had twisted vallis, but it didn't grow for us. Instead of adding stuff to make it grow, we simply gave it away and put something else in its place (crypt balansae). Since we're not adding ferts, we'll have to make sure that the nutrients we put in there stay in there, so we've stopped vacuuming the gravel. Yay, less maintenance! We have some snails that live in the substrate to help break stuff down. 

You might want to add some Malaysian Trumpet snails to your tank. They are good for plants, and might be able to keep other, less desirable snails out (by competition). You can't buy them, but you can often find them in tanks in fish shops. The shop guys will think you're nuts for wanting them. They consider them pests, but that's because they don't know about them! You can see a picture here:
http://www.petresources.net/fish/plants/mel_tub.html


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Malaysian trumpet are not good for plants. They are not bad either. They are good for shifting through sand to keep it aerrated but thats to prevent sulfur buildup, not to benefit the plants. A good root system will do the same. 
You should always vaccuum your gravel. In a perfect world, the plants will use all the nutrients you have in your tank but this isn't one. Too much debris will cause outbreaks and excessive nitrate readings. This will also cause snail outbreaks. When the food is gone or limited, the snails will either die, polluting the tank, or turn on your plants.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

> You should always vaccuum your gravel.


You have MUCH more experience in fishkeeping than I do, and I respect what you say. However, it seems that others, who have equally as much experience as you do, have tanks where they don't vacuum the gravel. For example, see
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/plant/lotech.html
And of course there is Diana Walstad's book, which you yourself have said is a good book.

So in some circumstances, it seems that one can set up an aquarium where you don't vacuum the gravel, and the nutrients are recycled. I am willing to give it a try. One thing is clear about my tank: there aren't enough nutrients in it. That's why most of my algae has gone away and my plants have slowed down their growth. So I could continue to vacuum the gravel and then add ferts, or I could stop vacuuming the gravel and let the fish fertilise the plants. I will try the latter, and if doesn't work, I can try the former.

As for the snails, I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge! They may indeed not be good for a high-tech kind of aquarium, but I think they will be benficial for the more natural kind of aquarium that I'm trying to set up.

As I said, I'm very new to this game, and I'm just beginning to experiment with Diana Walstad's recommendations. It may or may not work. I'll report in a few months as to how it's going.


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## DervMan (Jan 26, 2005)

Some excellent advice there guys - *big up for the low tech approach*, too. I'm afraid, having failed to grow plants in the past, I decided that I'd chuck money at the tank until it was what I wanted. Okay okay "_within reason,_" but the addition of the carbon dioxide injection system and the liquid plant fertiliser has made a _huge_ difference.

Now those Twisted Vallis plants that are close to the edge of the tank have roots that are three to five inches deep. Half of them have shoots, one has two.

The newly added bogwood and Java Fern (_and one Abunis, spelling maybe_) give the aquarium a rather, erm, claustrophobic look and feel about it. In time everything should settle down... In a few months I'll be able to remove those nasty red elastic bands (_they're red so I see them_).

We still have much work to do, I'm not entirely happy with the bogwood layout...

I've yet to find a decent substrate cleaning solution. I have a funky deep large gravel and sand cleaner, but it doesn't work very well and it cannot pick up stuff like dead roots that have dropped off. :?

Excellent news on the Zebra Danios. I love the look of them, sleek, fast, nimble, and if they're tolerant, that's even better. I just need to wait for the tank chemistry to settle down after putting a heap of bogwood in there... :fun:


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

> The newly added bogwood and Java Fern (and one Abunis, spelling maybe) give the aquarium a rather, erm, claustrophobic look and feel about it.


No way. To me, that tank looks pretty bare! Either you're one of those Zen minimalist types, or you're not used to the look of a planted tank...

One real advantage to the high-tech approach is being able to grow anything you want. I had some cabomba caroliniana, and it looked great for a bit. Then it fell apart, algae growth skyrocketed, etc, and now I have a nice tall cryptocorne instead (much less demanding). You don't seem to have any background plants on the right side of your tank, perhaps you could try some. Also, red plants look really cool, but again I don't have a chance of growing them because I have far too little light. There's another thing you could look into. 

But first, I'd go get some zebras. They are the perfect fish for getting your tank cycled. A half dozen of them would get your bacteria going nicely. And they will really enjoy playing amongst the plants! And you can worry about other fish to put in later.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

> I just need to wait for the tank chemistry to settle down after putting a heap of bogwood in there...


Nah, don't bother. As long as your ammonia and nitrite are 0, plunk them in! (I mean, gradually aclimatise them to your water chemistry, etc...) If your water is anything like ours, the bogwood won't make any difference. Our tank is also pH7.8, and adding a fair bit of bogwood didn't change anything. Even mixing in 1/3 rain water into the water I used for water changes hasn't made any difference! And even if the bogwood manages to make any difference, it will be very gradual, enough so that the fish will adapt to it with no problems...

Let your tank be fishless no longer!


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## DervMan (Jan 26, 2005)

Heh! Well, bare at the moment, I was discounting future growth.

At the left hand side there's one Twisted Vallis plant that's already got one growing shoot, and one more in the go - it'll grow and then some. We've also got some bogwood. I suspect I'll reposition the bogwood and Java Fern in due course but at the moment the Twisted Vallis is there to hide some of the technology in there.

Our tank isn't as brightly lit as some, we've only got 80 watts over a 60 US gallon tank, which is quite a lot ratio. This will limit what plants we can grow.

As for the water chemistry, well the pH was 8.0 before adding carbon dioxide and bogwood. Now it's 7.2... Still the alkaline side of things. Still on the Platy side of things... :fun: 

I can't decide if I want to get Platy or Zebra Danio as the first fish. I like both (_our local store has some gorgeous greeny / orange Platys_). The temperature is currently set to be 75°F; this can be moved.

Charlie and I are getting some fish on Saturday. Our preferred store shuts at six and I'm only usually approaching York by then...


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

I have to recommend danios, platys might get sick in too soft water, if you harden the water for the platys, you can only get other fish that like alkalinous and hard water(livebearers).
With danios you have better options for the second fish!


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

To clarify, I wrote:


> So in some circumstances, it seems that one can set up an aquarium where you don't vacuum the gravel, and the nutrients are recycled. I am willing to give it a try.


I heave read more of Diana Walstad's book, and I am no longer going to give it a tryi! She makes it quite clear that this doesn't work unless you've got good plant roots in your gravel to stop the collected junk from going anaerobic and releasing toxins. I do have plenty of plants, but not all of the bottom area of the tank is planted, so I'll have to keep vacuuming the unplanted areas to keep the gravel clean. So, no surprise, Simpte was right. It takes time to learn all this stuff!

So it looks like I'll have to find other ways of getting more nutrients to the plants. Probably I'll go for some commercial aquatic plant fertilizer.


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## Mr Aquarium (Jan 18, 2005)

Ok, I'm going to go out on the limb again,,,,,Don;t follow these water condistions to close to the fish you should have,,,,
I have a 75g, never tested the water this last time from the set up,,,,I cheated and helped the cycle along also>
Anyway, I run Two Hat mag 250 can filtrs on it, do 15-20% w/c every week, it have 40 watts of light,
bunch of hornwort and a mess of willow moss, "adding a pack of ea of the plant bulbs from wally world today"
the temps kept at 75*-79* unless I happen to get ick.....Now here is the kicker, No salt, no of that plant stuff, no injections of any kind,,,,,just use Aqua Safe for the w/c,,,,and we now have added more fish,,,,so the list now looks like this,

13 Pulcher Kribs 
5 White Clouds, 4 Zebra Danios, Glow Light, Head Lite Tail Lite,
2 Neons, "B=Pleco - Brissle or bushy nose which ever you wanna call it"
2 Angle Fish, cory cat, Spotted Ralphiel, 2 guppies, 4 bettas
2 Mollies, 2 Platties 2 Blue Gouramis

I have not had a single fish die eccept a danio after a w/c a couple weeks back, and an angle acted like it was going to but came out of it and is just dandy now......
Like I said myI don;t test water,,,don;t plan to anytime soon,,,,
IMO,,,,when you start to follow the water parameters to close, it;s to easy to make problems worse.
I'm not saying you shouldn;t do this, but if you get a tank that is well established, then the troubles of following things to the letter just sort of go away, in most cases, some fish do reqire more of better water, but none of the community fish I know of really need anything special so to speak....


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

So what fish did you get?


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