# And odd betta problem



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

Hello! I am new to posting on this forum and I'm hoping to get a few ideas as to why this keeps happening.

I've owned bettas off and on for about 4 years now so while I don't consider myself a novice, I know there's still a lot for me to learn. 

Anyway, Bubbles is veiltail that I've had for about a month and it seems that no matter what kind of tank I put him in, within a day that tank becomes cloudy. I started him off in a 1 gallon bowl while I sought out a better home. The bowl had a heater but no filtration. I was changing the water every day because of how cloudy it became. Water tests showed a slightly elevated PH and alkalinity but nothing dangerous.

So I moved him into a 2.5 gallon tank with filtration and heat and again within a day the water got cloudy. I've been doing 50% water changes ever day and checking the water conditions and again the PH and alkalinity are slightly elevated but well within limits. Last night I did a water change and within 12 hours its back to being just as cloudy as it was yesterday. 

I've changed gravel, thinking it was the silt-like sand I had originally put in the new tank with plain, black gravel. I've never seen a betta's water get this cloudy this quickly.

I'm not sure what other information I could give but at this point my fiancee is trying to talk me into putting him into our big tank (25 gal) but I've never had success putting a betta in a large tank and we have a pair of mating angelfish in there now (the female is a right mean one).

I'd appreciate any and all suggestions, I know I read something about male secretions in a previous post but I can't find much about it anywhere on betta sites.

Thank you!


----------



## ZebraDanio12 (Jun 17, 2011)

If your putting him into completely new tanks, its normal. New tank syndrome... Allow the tank to cycle for awhile it goes away.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

ZebraDanio12 said:


> If your putting him into completely new tanks, its normal. New tank syndrome... Allow the tank to cycle for awhile it goes away.


If this is the case, why would his water in a small bowl with no bacteria or filtration turn cloudy in less than 12 hours? Every other betta I've ever kept in a bowl took 3-4 days to cloud it up.

I'll leave it for a few days and see but it just seems to keep getting worse and worse, I worry for his health.


----------



## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Bacterial bloom. If you have other tanks that are well set up and cycled with no diseases, I would recommend using half of that water in his container. I would also recommend getting a larger container for him.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

Betta man said:


> Bacterial bloom. If you have other tanks that are well set up and cycled with no diseases, I would recommend using half of that water in his container. I would also recommend getting a larger container for him.


I'm not a huge fan of 5+ gallon tanks for bettas, they usually end up being taller than they are longer which bettas don't seem to appreciate, but thank you for the suggestion.

As far as using the other water, I might try that but I am still not convinced its a tank cycling problem. If I had been using bacterial supplement in his original bowl I could understand it, but the bowl was nothing more than conditioned, purified water. So it was never a cycling issue there. The only two constant factors between the bowl and the tank was the fish and a heater.

I will try the water from the cycled tank this afternoon though, thank you for the suggestion!


----------



## Fishy friend2 (Dec 7, 2011)

I don't believe it's a tank cycling problem either, I disagree with Betta man and zebra danio. The surface area in anything smaller than 3 gallons is very minimal which leaves very little space for the bacteria to colonize. Since nitriying/nitrosying bacteria prefers rough edged surfaces and a constant supply of ammonia, a 5+ gallon tank is where you are going to find it most likely. In the filter, since there is a constant supply of a nitrogen food source. (Ammonia) 

I would more so think its a water quality issue, or an issue from the substrate or decorations, what substrates are you using? Gravel, sand, etc. all can cause issues with water clarity if they aren't rinsed well enough
What are your exact readings on ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. I know the last two aren't absolutely needed as they only occur in cycled tanks, but sometimes they occur naturally. Nitrates are commonly found in tap water. Be sure to use a liquid test kit for best, and most accurate readings

Do you have any recently added plants or driftwood?

what is the color of the cloudiness, brown can be caused by tannins, green can be caused by single celled free floating algae, and white cloudy can be multiple things

Betta man I HIGHLY disagree with you and believe you are providing very innacurate information 

Adding water from an already previously cycled tank will not aid an already happening cycle. Most of the nitrifying bacteria that exists and colonizes in a cycled and exists in the filter. Not the water collum. Adding water from a cycled tank won't have any effect. For better results, put the filter media in a running filter inside of the tank, but in a tank smaller than 3 gallons, it's not worth it, as the tank is unlikely to have a stable cycle


----------



## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

That is if you have a filter. It has worked for me and I have 3 cycled tanks. Another thing that I always do is keep a sponge filter cartridge floating in my cycled tanks so that if I have to take down a tank, I can put fresh water in it and put the sponge filter cartridge in it. Fishy friend, you may disagree, but it works very well for me. Have you ever tried it? If you have sand or gravel as a substrate, it may just be debris which will settle. How long did you let it settle for?


----------



## Fishy friend2 (Dec 7, 2011)

I've tried it, many others have, Expereince, and research support the fact that bacteria will not colonize in the water collum. The amount of bacteria in the water collum will be very minimal. The best way is to use a small amount of already existing filter media from a cycled tank in your filter and try to cycle the tank. bacteria do have specific needs and the benificial types do not typically occupy the water column, 90-95% of the nitrifying bacteria in the tank survives in the filter. Not on surfaces in the tank or the water column

In My Experience. The amount of time it takes for the water to settle when caused by sand or dirt can be differential by the type of the substrate, brand, size of tank, whether or not theres agitation on the substrate. So there really is no specific range as it varies so much depending on those things listed above


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i use the showtime method...you folks ever hear of it ? the showtime is a countertop rotisserie oven.....as they say on the infomercial..." SET IT AND FORGET IT "
in other words....QUIT MESSIN WITH EVERYTHING......
i don't keep any fish in an unfiltered tank...even if it is a small tank...i will or will not heat a tank according to the inhabitants needs......bettas really do prefer warmer water...
78-84 F......
i never.."NEVER" use water from an established tank to try to cycle a new tank...as FF2 stated the level of bacteria is minimal....i will use an established sponge filter and/or gravel if i have it..most all of my tanks are bare bottomed..........
i keep telling folks...the more you mess with a tank ; the more problems you cause for 
yourself...
so...."SET IT (and set it right) AND FORGET IT....the cloudiness will clear up ; but not if you keep playing with it.....


----------



## Fishy friend2 (Dec 7, 2011)

I completely agree with everything lohachata has stated. His information is 100% correct


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

Fishy friend2 said:


> I don't believe it's a tank cycling problem either, I disagree with Betta man and zebra danio. The surface area in anything smaller than 3 gallons is very minimal which leaves very little space for the bacteria to colonize. Since nitriying/nitrosying bacteria prefers rough edged surfaces and a constant supply of ammonia, a 5+ gallon tank is where you are going to find it most likely. In the filter, since there is a constant supply of a nitrogen food source. (Ammonia)
> 
> I would more so think its a water quality issue, or an issue from the substrate or decorations, what substrates are you using? Gravel, sand, etc. all can cause issues with water clarity if they aren't rinsed well enough
> What are your exact readings on ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. I know the last two aren't absolutely needed as they only occur in cycled tanks, but sometimes they occur naturally. Nitrates are commonly found in tap water. Be sure to use a liquid test kit for best, and most accurate readings
> ...



I went ahead and did another (daily lately!) 50% water change to alleviate some of the cloudiness so I will give you readings from now and then tomorrow when I am sure it is again cloudy.

As for decorations, the two bowls only shared on common decoration and its a small tree that I've used in numerous betta bowls and tanks. As for the other items, there are two small plants and regular black gravel. The gravel was soaked, sifted and strained prior to being added to the tank. The plants were all washed and scrubbed with one of my algae sponges (I keep one specifically for cleaning plants during tank changes) and then well rinsed.

Readings:
Nitrite: 0ppm
Hardness: 75ppm
Chlorine: 0ppm
Alkalinity: 180ppm
PH: 7.8

I have been slowly replacing the conditioned tap water with purified water to lower the PH but with this many water changes I've had to drop back to a 1:3 ratio until I can fix the issue.

I hope that helps. I will post water changes tomorrow when it clouds up again.




lohachata said:


> i use the showtime method...you folks ever hear of it ? the showtime is a countertop rotisserie oven.....as they say on the infomercial..." SET IT AND FORGET IT "
> in other words....QUIT MESSIN WITH EVERYTHING......
> i don't keep any fish in an unfiltered tank...even if it is a small tank...i will or will not heat a tank according to the inhabitants needs......bettas really do prefer warmer water...
> 78-84 F......
> ...



I have to admit, I am a worry wart, especially when in the past I've listened to my fiance's advice of "don't worry" and ended up losing fish I'd grown attached to. I think after I test the water tomorrow and post the results if none of us can come up with a reason why then I'll just let things roll unless I see him getting ill.

Thank you all for your advice, its really appreciated!!


----------



## austinroberts23 (Jan 25, 2012)

Keep in mind betta can secrete an oil that will cloud a tank quick if it's not filtered and being broken up at the surface.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

what kind of purified water are you using ? i would just regular tap water....many of the purified or bottled waters are RO filtered...straight RO water will not support aquatic life..9if your PH is 7.8 it will drop some as the tank matures...you will most likely end up at around 7.0..


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

austinroberts23 said:


> Keep in mind betta can secrete an oil that will cloud a tank quick if it's not filtered and being broken up at the surface.


This is what I'm most curious about. I've tried to find more information but haven't been able to.

Do you know of a place I could research it a bit more as I have a feeling this is the culprit.


----------



## austinroberts23 (Jan 25, 2012)

Go out to google and search betta oil or betta oil ring. There will be a few that pop up


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I agree that any new fish added to a tank with a breeding pair of angels will soon be dispatched. 

What have you used in the water of additives? Does the tank cloud after you top off with purified water or only when you add fresh tap?


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

New readings as of this morning. Tank is cloudy again.

Nitrite: 0ppm
Hardness:75ppm
Chlorine: 0ppm
Alkalinity:180ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
PH: 7.8ppm

As you can see there are no real changes yet the water is cloudy.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

emc7 said:


> I agree that any new fish added to a tank with a breeding pair of angels will soon be dispatched.
> 
> What have you used in the water of additives? Does the tank cloud after you top off with purified water or only when you add fresh tap?


I use a water conditioner only on the water and the tank clouds regardless of using purified water or tap.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2012)

If after you do everything you can to clear the water when it clouds, you can try accu-clear, which will clear the water.

What is your ammonia level? The reason why your water keeps clouding up, could be the ammonia level. I haven't seen an ammonia level with the parameters that you have posted, it is a very important test for the fish tank water.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

Angelclown said:


> If after you do everything you can to clear the water when it clouds, you can try accu-clear, which will clear the water.
> 
> What is your ammonia level? The reason why your water keeps clouding up, could be the ammonia level. I haven't seen an ammonia level with the parameters that you have posted, it is a very important test for the fish tank water.


Apologies, I haven't been posting ammonia levels because they are at 0. I should have regardless.


----------



## Guest (Jun 18, 2012)

Jhynnifer said:


> Apologies, I haven't been posting ammonia levels because they are at 0. I should have regardless.


Oh ok. The ammonia level should stay at 0ppm. You could try accu-clear to clear up the cloudy water. I have noticed that you have hard water, that could be your problem as well. If you can get your water soft that might clear up your cloudy water.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

Angelclown said:


> Oh ok. The ammonia level should stay at 0ppm. You could try accu-clear to clear up the cloudy water. I have noticed that you have hard water, that could be your problem as well. If you can get your water soft that might clear up your cloudy water.


Definitely, I've been working on that.. but since I have a second betta in a second tank and a 25 gal freshwater and neither of those have ever had a history of growing cloudy so quickly or getting cloudy at all I'm more apt to think this is a fish thing.

As for the oil ring, I've been keeping an eye on it and I have yet to see any of the oil patches I've read about.


----------



## austinroberts23 (Jan 25, 2012)

If you have circulation it won't really make patches. Try pulling a decoration out and setting it in a bowl of water. See if the oil leeches off and then you can tell.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

austinroberts23 said:


> If you have circulation it won't really make patches. Try pulling a decoration out and setting it in a bowl of water. See if the oil leeches off and then you can tell.


This really worked... we've started floating paper towels in the tank and its helping clear it up relatively quickly.

Thank you all very much for the help, I'm glad we've found a solution.


----------



## Jhynnifer (Jun 16, 2012)

So small update... I purchased a 6 gallon tank and am starting with live plants. I found the oddest thing I have ever seen a betta do the other day. While most bettas dislike currents, not only did mine enjoy it... he would actually manage to swim up to the filter spout, flop his way onto it and swim down into the filter. I was flabbergasted when I saw this so I've replaced the filter with a sponge type in order to keep it from happening... but how odd!


----------

