# Need help before fish dies, please!



## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

I (my Mom, technically) have a 10g tank, with a goldfish, a pleco, and two other fish that have been in there several weeks. They were bought for the tank, and I don't know what kind they are. They're small, not an inch long, silver body, top fin is black, back fin and bottom fin are orange.

I have an Aqueon 10 filtration system, as well as an air pump in there.

A few days ago, the goldfish started darting around erratically and rubbing himself against the gravel. Looking at him closely, I can't find any physical abnormalities. His color is still good, no weird spots of anything, etc. 

Tested the water, and found the nitrates were very high. They were 200 yesterday before a 15% water change. Everything else looked normal. Nitrites were 0, Chlorine 0, Alkalinity was about 120, pH was 6.8-7.2. Hardness is hard, but it always has been and it hasn't affected the fish. They seem to thrive in it, regardless.

This afternoon, nitrites are 160 and pH is 7.8-8.4. Everything else is the same. 

This did start the day I tried to put another live plant in there, and stirred up some stuff in the gravel. We do regular changes (one every 7-10 days), so it wasn't bad. Turned out my Mom had started feeding them twice a day instead of the usual once a day. We have since been feeding once a day. 


What else can I do to get the water safe? I suppose I'm assuming the high nitrates are causing the goldfish to act weird- could it be anything else? All the other fish are acting normal.


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## doulos668 (Jul 24, 2015)

If it is nitrites just do a bigger water change and more frequent until you get it under control. You could replace your substrate with something like eco complete...I did this. 
Do both of these things.

You may just need to get through your cycle, since this is a new setup

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S5


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## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

Thanks so much for your advice!

I'll try another, larger, water change. How often should I do them until the levels are back to normal?

This isn't a new setup. The goldfish and the pleco have been in there for over a year. It's just the two small fish that are new. I dont' know if that makes a difference or not.


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## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

I have never cycled a tank in my life. I just do large WC daily with aged water until the filter catches up. Gold fish are tough as nails. You will be fine if you keep changing water.


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## bullseyejoey (Aug 30, 2012)

A thing that also brings up a question is that you're keeping goldfish with tropical fish like plecos... What's the temperature in your tank? Goldfish are cold water fish and will do fine in room temperature but shouldn't really be in heated water.


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

If you have only four fish in the tank, that is a light bio-load. Don't do more than 25% WC per week. Let the tank do it's thing. Being the tank was setup for over a year everything should have been okay. If you have done a lot of WC then you may have removed too much beneficial bacteria. The goldie will do okay in a warm tank just not real warm 76-78 degrees is good. If the goldie is still scratching add a little aquarium salt. Works like a tonic and the others will like it too. Add about 1 tablespoon.


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## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

the beneficial bacteria sets up housekeeping in the filter and substrate, not in the water itself. That's why I suggest daily WC while a tank is cycling. I breed Discus and my has worked a charm for me.


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## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

bullseyejoey said:


> A thing that also brings up a question is that you're keeping goldfish with tropical fish like plecos... What's the temperature in your tank? Goldfish are cold water fish and will do fine in room temperature but shouldn't really be in heated water.


Umm, well... I couldn't tell you what the temp is because I've never checked it. :???: It's room temp, with no heater. We've never had a problem with either the goldfish (until now) or the pleco. Actually, both are outgrowing the tank, and we're upgrading tanks next weekend. 



Elliott225 said:


> If you have only four fish in the tank, that is a light bio-load. Don't do more than 25% WC per week. Let the tank do it's thing. Being the tank was setup for over a year everything should have been okay. If you have done a lot of WC then you may have removed too much beneficial bacteria. The goldie will do okay in a warm tank just not real warm 76-78 degrees is good. If the goldie is still scratching add a little aquarium salt. Works like a tonic and the others will like it too. Add about 1 tablespoon.


I thought goldfish were "dirty" fish, though? Everything has been okay up until now, which is why I feel like I'm in a frenzy to get the levels back to normal. The WC I did yesterday would have been on time from the last one. Before reading these, I did another one, closer to 50%. Checked levels, and they are better but still not great. I'm going to let it cycle through and see what it does. 



LizStreithorst said:


> the beneficial bacteria sets up housekeeping in the filter and substrate, not in the water itself. That's why I suggest daily WC while a tank is cycling. I breed Discus and my has worked a charm for me.


The WC I just did was just water; I didn't clean the gravel (since I did that yesterday) or change out the filter. Honestly, the filter could probably use a change, but if you say good bacteria is in there, would it be better to leave it in until all the levels are back to normal? Also, since I did a rather large WC today, and a small one yesterday, do I do another one tomorrow? If so, what % of the water should I change?


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Elliott225 said:


> If you have only four fish in the tank, that is a light bio-load.


Sorry but I have to argue with that.Wolf has a goldfish and a pleco, along with 2 small fish. The 2 small fish don't have a big bioload but the goldfish has a high bioload and if the pleco is a common pleco then it also has a high bioload. I would be doing two 25% water changes per week .


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

nitrites or nitrates? nitrates are bad, but nitrites are deadly. If nitrites are above the "safe" range, do a bigger water change..


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## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

emc7 said:


> nitrites or nitrates? nitrates are bad, but nitrites are deadly. If nitrites are above the "safe" range, do a bigger water change..


Leave the sponge in the filter alone. You said that you have high nitrites. As had been said high nitrates are deadly. There should always be a a nitrate reading in a cycled tank.


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

evil wizard said:


> Sorry but I have to argue with that.Wolf has a goldfish and a pleco, along with 2 small fish. The 2 small fish don't have a big bioload but the goldfish has a high bioload and if the pleco is a common pleco then it also has a high bioload. I would be doing two 25% water changes per week .


Didn't say how big the goldie or pleco was.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Well if it is a common pleco that it would have grown to a fair size in a year and if the goldfish was a feeder goldfish AKA a comet goldfish then he would have also grown to a fair size in a years time.
Wolf, could you tell us the size of the pleco and goldfish?


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## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

emc7 said:


> nitrites or nitrates? nitrates are bad, but nitrites are deadly. If nitrites are above the "safe" range, do a bigger water change..


I have high nitrAtes



LizStreithorst said:


> Leave the sponge in the filter alone. You said that you have high nitrites. As had been said high nitrates are deadly. There should always be a a nitrate reading in a cycled tank.


I'm so sorry, that was a typo. It's my nitrates that are high. Nitrites have been steady at 0.



evil wizard said:


> Well if it is a common pleco that it would have grown to a fair size in a year and if the goldfish was a feeder goldfish AKA a comet goldfish then he would have also grown to a fair size in a years time.
> Wolf, could you tell us the size of the pleco and goldfish?


Common pleco and comet goldfish, both of which are fairly large for the tank now. Including tail fins, the pleco is 6in, and the goldfish is 5in. We are upgrading the tank next weekend, so if they can survive until then, they'll be much better off in a bigger tank. 


Today, nitrates seem to be steady at 80. I did almost a 50% water change yesterday, and a 15% the day before that. Should I do another one? The goldfish seems better, I think- not darting around as much, and has resumed his foraging that he likes to do, though he seems stay in a "sleep" state for longer periods of time. He just kinda floats at the bottom of the tank, though if I go over there, he'll move.


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## Mugwump (Aug 7, 2015)

Yep, I'd do another.....


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## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

Mugwump said:


> Yep, I'd do another.....


What % should I do?


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for clarifying their sizes. 

A 6" pleco and a 5" goldfish....you are way over the limit for the bio-load. For GF at least 2g per inch of fish, some say more. Same for the pleco. Doing at least a 50% every three days is a good idea.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Wow, I thought they were 5 inch. I was right with the goldfish but 1 inch off with the pleco . Wolf, do you know what type of pleco it is?
Also I hear the rule is 20 gallons for the first goldfish and 10 gallons for each additional goldfish. This rule does not apply to comet goldfish I agree with the 50% every 3 days.


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## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

Elliott225 said:


> Thanks for clarifying their sizes.
> 
> A 6" pleco and a 5" goldfish....you are way over the limit for the bio-load. For GF at least 2g per inch of fish, some say more. Same for the pleco. Doing at least a 50% every three days is a good idea.


With my current nitrate levels, should I do another 50% today? Mugwump suggested another WC, just not sure what %.



evil wizard said:


> Wow, I thought they were 5 inch. I was right with the goldfish but 1 inch off with the pleco . Wolf, do you know what type of pleco it is?
> Also I hear the rule is 20 gallons for the first goldfish and 10 gallons for each additional goldfish. This rule does not apply to comet goldfish I agree with the 50% every 3 days.


I believe it's a Hypostomus plecostomus, but I'm not positive. Here's a few pics of my tank. I included a pic of the new fish- anyone know what they are??


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

The small red fish are serpae tetras. They nip fins if they are not in big groups. And you are right that is a common pleco. If I were you, I would donate that pleco to someone who can care for it properly. A common pleco has to have a tanks that is at least a hundred gallons I think. It's either a 100 gallons or more.


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## wolflover326 (Feb 10, 2015)

evil wizard said:


> The small red fish are serpae tetras. They nip fins if they are not in big groups. And you are right that is a common pleco. If I were you, I would donate that pleco to someone who can care for it properly. A common pleco has to have a tanks that is at least a hundred gallons I think. It's either a 100 gallons or more.


I wondered why my GF's tail looks ripped... :-( I think we might keep those tetras in that tank and move the goldfish into the new one.

We're upgrading to a 55g. What's a good pleco for that sized tank? I don't suppose you have any suggestions on where I might donate my pleco?


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Okay I going to change my response. The pleco is the common. He needs some driftwood to munch on. The goldie is okay in the tank as he isn't 5" Don't count the fin length. They both need to be in a bigger tank

That size pleco would be okay in a 55g for a while. Same for the goldie. Once you get a bigger tank, add a couple more serpae's. 

I think that 20g rule is for ponds. As for 100g for pleco's....I'm not sure. Once that get large, then yeah. I had a 16+" pleco in my 150g with the African Cichlids.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok ; good to try to understand a couple of things here....
1. common plecos can reach a length of 3-4 ft......should be kept in mid to upper 70s...lots of algae wafers and vegetable matter along with some driftwood...needs a huge tank...

2. comet goldfish can reach 16 or so inches....needs at least a 40 breeder...temps in the 60s...maybe low 70s..should not be fed floating foods...also needs lots of vegetable matter...

3. serpaes do much better in groups of 6 or more...temps in mid to upper 70s..


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## bullseyejoey (Aug 30, 2012)

A nice pleco to put in a tank would be a bushynose pleco. Albinos look nice... They get about 5-6" max.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

lohachata said:


> ok ; good to try to understand a couple of things here....
> 1. common plecos can reach a length of 3-4 ft......should be kept in mid to upper 70s...lots of algae wafers and vegetable matter along with some driftwood...needs a huge tank...
> 
> 2. comet goldfish can reach 16 or so inches....needs at least a 40 breeder...temps in the 60s...maybe low 70s..should not be fed floating foods...also needs lots of vegetable matter...
> ...


Thank you. They can reach 4 foot? I thought they maxed out at 2 foot.



bullseyejoey said:


> A nice pleco to put in a tank would be a bushynose pleco. Albinos look nice... They get about 5-6" max.


+1


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Elliott225 said:


> I think that 20g rule is for ponds


 Look at the 3 post down http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/a...tions/136290-help-stocking-goldfish-tank.html


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

so tell me wiz......would you keep a 16" bulky bodied fish in a 24 x 12 x 16 tank ? do you really think that clown in the post you linked knows what he is talking about ?
i don't think so.....a comet needs a minimum of a 40 breeder..and a 75 or so better yet.
i have seen even bigger than this one...and this is not a common , it is a black adonis....
https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...-avg-fh_lsonsw&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw&hspart=avg

a lot of people do not think that the royal only get 10-12 inches.....how about this one...

https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...-avg-fh_lsonsw&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw&hspart=avg


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## bullseyejoey (Aug 30, 2012)

lohachata said:


> so tell me wiz......would you keep a 16" bulky bodied fish in a 24 x 12 x 16 tank ? do you really think that clown in the post you linked knows what he is talking about ?
> i don't think so.....a comet needs a minimum of a 40 breeder..and a 75 or so better yet.
> i have seen even bigger than this one...and this is not a common , it is a black adonis....
> https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...-avg-fh_lsonsw&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw&hspart=avg
> ...


To second this, in that thread, that user was talking about stocking a 75 gallon, so that 20 gallon rule for those 75 gallons seems pretty irrelevant with wolf's tank size.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

lohachata said:


> so tell me wiz......would you keep a 16" bulky bodied fish in a 24 x 12 x 16 tank ? do you really think that clown in the post you linked knows what he is talking about ?
> i don't think so.....a comet needs a minimum of a 40 breeder..and a 75 or so better yet.
> i have seen even bigger than this one...and this is not a common , it is a black adonis....
> https://images.search.yahoo.com/ima...-avg-fh_lsonsw&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw&hspart=avg
> ...


Well Loha he was talking about fancy goldfish in that link I posted, not comet goldfish.



bullseyejoey said:


> To second this, in that thread, that user was talking about stocking a 75 gallon, so that 20 gallon rule for those 75 gallons seems pretty irrelevant with wolf's tank size.


Well bullseye, When Elliot said that the 20 gallon rule was for ponds I wanted to show him that it was used for tanks. I really did not think of tank size, I just used the link for the little bit of info that showed that the 20 gallon rule was for tanks.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

and many of the "fancy" goldfish will reach 10-12" so a 20 gallon tank is still way too small...the 20 gallon rule should be taken out of the hobby..


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Hmm, I have seen a few fancy goldfish that were about 12 inches, though they were raised in ponds. Though that does prove that they could grow to that size in aquariums if conditions were right.


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