# Total Newbie Needs Help



## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

Hello everyone I'm new!! I also have some questions...I've never had a saltwater tank before. 

What tank size would be a good one to start with? I was thinking maybe a 30/40gallon since that might be the biggest I can fit in my computer room. Does anyone know of any stands that are on the shorter side (almost looking like a tv stand) since I'm short and all. I'd prefer a wood one over a simple iron stand since they don't seem very sturdy?

I'm thinking of going with fish and live rock, so what exactly would I need? Not necessarily brand names, unless something is only specific to one, but items. I know a filter and powerheads but what power would be suitable? Are there certain types of lights or would a normal hood work? I'd need sand, but would I need anything else for the bottom/floor? What else would I need in general? 

I'm going to hunt around online as well but I wanted to get a start on questions I had. Any help would be appreciated. It'll take me awhile to get everything so there's no rush, just want to make sure I get what I'll need.


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## cossie (Dec 19, 2010)

I can help you with tank size for a begginer, look in my signiture at the SW link that is a 24G marine and is great so-far, however one of my clowns died from velvet disease today ;-(

BUT YAY ANOTHER REEFER

funlad will take over from here i expect ;-)


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## platies pwn (Nov 29, 2010)

from what i heard,the bigger tanks are supposed to be easier to care for and i'm sorry for your loss,cossie


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

I've also heard that the bigger the tank the easier it is. A 30 or 40 gallon is the biggest I could go right now and even when I do eventually move and have room for bigger I might just make a second tank and maybe add corals to that one. For now a medium ish sized tank will do I'm just not sure what all I'll need. 

Oh, the other thing is I have very few places to get fish that I know of. We have a Petco and a Petsmart (not sure if they sell SW fish) and then a small local place that I've gotten fish from before. It's something else I'll need to hunt around for but they might have a stand I'd like as well as some supplies.


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## burninrubber390 (Oct 25, 2010)

hey read the last post that says nano reef that has some good info in it


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

okay i read the nano reef one and i read all of betta fish's...

new questions: someone mentioned, somewhere, that depending on tank size you might not need a heater, that the lights would be warm enough. what size tanks does this apply to? would a 29/30 (how would you know the difference?) still be considered a nano? 

as for live rock...is it common for things to grow on it? like those yellow polpys? or other toxic things? i would always use gloves, regardless, but i want to make sure so it wouldn't be so much of a surprise. 

i'm going to see how much a new tank and stand would be and see if i can't find any on craigslist. or does anyone know of a cheaper online place for supplies? like i mentioned earlier i don't know of any, really, places for SW supplies. there might be more than i think, but without having needed to look before i wouldn't know. i'd mostly worry about stock over supplies, since i'm sure most could either be found at petco/petsmart or be ordered online. 

right now my list consists of: lights, filter, protein skimmer, sand, heater, hydrometer/refractometer, salt, and powerhead(s). What else? Books....yes. What are some good books to have? I like reading so this shouldn't be an issue, I'm just not sure what's "good" and worthwhile to be reading. Oh, and do underwater things work for SW? Like I have something that went under the gravel in my 29g FW that meant I didn't need a filter, or a powerhead....i think the powerhead (it's been awhile!). Though with sand I doubt it'd help or work...

lights will be another issue i'm sure. should i go for a normal hood but with certain lights inside or is there a type of "hood" made more specifically for SW?

I'm going to Petco later today and though I won't have money yet to buy anything I can start pricing their stuff since I'll be there. I know they have SW stuff there since they sell some SW fish. I also do better, sometimes, if I can see and compare in person. It's hard online sometimes when you don't really know what you're looking for/at!

long post, sorry!!! and now that DST have made it 4am i'm going to bed!


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

Generally, marine tanks 30gal and under are considered nano tanks.

Not every marine tank requires a heater, because water pumps, lighting and other apparatus can add heat. Some reef tanks run 5 to 10 degrees (fahrenheit) above room temperature without heaters, so in many cases the emphasis is on cooling the tank not warming it. Room temperature of the home or apartment is a factor. 

Live Rock, and specifically cured live rock, is characterized by the life forms which reside in and on it. Some organisms are beneficial or benign (copepods, mysid shrimp, micro serpent seastars, stomatella's, various snails, sea urchins, certain macro algae, etc). Some organisms may be pests or malignant (nuisance algae, wire algae, certain nudibranchs, flatworms, whelks, fireworms, aiptasia, majano's, and even higer lifeforms such as mantis shrimp and small octopi). With live rock you never know what you're gonna get.

I would say the best equipment deals are from other hobbyists in your area. There are always people getting out of the hobby or upgrading or downsizing and great bargains can be found. The best bargains are typically from people who are moving real soon and just need to get rid of their stuff as soon as possible. 

Online wise, I'd recommend saltwater specific sites, such as reefgeek, bulkreefsupply and similar sites, over petco/petsmart. 

Saltwater equipment can be expensive at times but in the hobby most of the cheap stuff (in monetary terms) is also cheap performance-wise. You'll get what you pay for.

Lights: If you plan on getting corals, you'll require lights that can support them (usually intense lighting). Metal halides, VHO and T5's (T5HO) are typical lighting for corals. Power compacts will work with some corals but aren't the most efficient. If going with just fish, stock lighting or less intense lighting will work.

Protein Skimmers: Highly recommended but not obligatory. Good quality protein skimmers will pull out some foul evil smelling skimmate from a system. 

Hydrometer/refractometer. Refractometers cost more but are more accurate. 

Undergravel filter: Not recommended for saltwater tanks.


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

Other than CL I don't know of any other way to find others near me....I'm new to all of this. Just because I was there, and had to go inside anyway, I checked Petco and they did have some sales....so it's always a possibility if nothing else. I didn't find the size tank I was looking for, even, so it's a last resort since it's not close to me. Though I need to check Petsmart just in case, since I honestly don't know of regular fish places around me except for one....and I'd trust him for fish but I'm not sure what supplies he has, it's a small place. 

I did see a 55 gallon as Petco and I know it's too big, though a 40 should be perfect. I saw a 45...but do they make 40s? Something I need to actually look at >.< It's been a long day of driving! MY job hasn't started yet, so no money but at least I can look around.

I don't plan on getting corals yet, if at all with this tank. Live rock, yes, but not corals. So would I still need a heater, for a 40-45, if I have proper lights? I usually have the ceiling fan on in this room, and when I don't it's still fairly cool and border/line drafty, so I don't think keeping it cooler will be an issue.


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

a few more questions for the moment...

Filters...internal or external? Canister or cartridges? What are powerheads used for exactly? I know how dumb a question that is but at this moment I can't remember. Air circulation?

What do you think is best...glass or acrylic? I know acrylic is more expensive but is it worthwhile to spend the extra or no?

What sort of water should be used? I read somewhere, on here, that someone uses distilled from Walmart....is that fine or? If it is then how much should I get at a time? Should I get extra just in case I'd need it for something?

Are refugium's needed? What do they do? Many say they attach to the tank but how is it beneficial or is it completely needed?


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

A 40gal breeder tank would be a nice starter.

Internal and external filters are not required and generally not used with marine tanks. Typically the live rock functions as the filtration.

Filters can be used but I think wouldn't be configured the same way that they would in FW set ups because the would generate excessive nitrates. 

Air circulation is not required. Water circulation is.

Glass or acrylic? It depends on your personal preference.

Reverse Osmosis/De-Ionized water (RO/DI water) is highly recommended due to its purity (0ppm total dissolved solids/TDS). RO water (without the DI component) is also good, though less pure due to measurable TDS. An RO/DI unit may be better than buy water since you can create it on demand and in the long term may be the cheaper way to go.

Refugiums are not needed but can be beneficial. They can be used to grow macroalgae which can outcompete nuisance algae in the system in terms of nutrient uptake. They can also provide a safe zone for copepods and other beneficial micro crustaceans (a food source by some fish and corals). When kept on an opposite photo-period from the main tank they can help reduce or prevent pH flucuations.


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## funlad3 (Oct 9, 2010)

Uhhhh, yeah!!!! Sorry I'm a it late here! Hopefully you actually setup a SW. It's a decision you won't regret until you realize that there's no room for your furniture anymore! 


Anyways, I have a totally generic setup. I have my main tank (75 gallon) connected to a 15ish gallon sump.

(Connected Via overflow box http://www.aquariumlife.net/images/overflow.gif )

There, I have my protein skimmer. (Which I would definitely have no matter what. It pulls out liquid crap that LOVES to build up in the water and kill things) 

I then have a return pump that flows up through a soft plastic tube and back into the display tank! 

Make sense? No? Follow the picture path!!!


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5strVb4OI/AAAAAAAAAE8/XSl4kVAt4qY/s1600/DSCN4250.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5snd0-OxI/AAAAAAAAAE0/duupzDuVNV8/s1600/DSCN4252.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5sktWkhnI/AAAAAAAAAEw/d_O29kHkKtU/s1600/DSCN4253.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5shm4nsqI/AAAAAAAAAEs/GL_nNm6Xsl4/s1600/DSCN4254.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5sMSHKTaI/AAAAAAAAAEM/Pusa1-eohvE/s1600/DSCN4264.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5rrjosUaI/AAAAAAAAADc/bWw1m9RY7jU/s1600/DSCN4276.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5ro2lk8yI/AAAAAAAAADY/GLjXD1KXWFg/s1600/DSCN4277.JPG

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_z5H72IAzetA/TS5rj_0SAoI/AAAAAAAAADQ/k7Dla-OcqLY/s1600/DSCN4279.JPG


Does that make more sense? Slightly? At all? Oh well.... Anyways, I do have a heater in my tank. It's on maybe twenty minutes a day, (Thank you built in thermostat!!!) but those 20 minutes keep my tank at a relatively high 84º.

I have also replaced that bulky protein skimmer with a newer smaller one. It gives issues sometimes, but I blame Ebay, not the technology.

Check my signature for more pictures and equipment explanations. Everything not on my site is on my SW thread located HERE:

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-saltwater/30911-i-won.html

Craigslist is your friend. I got everything that you see for $350, excluding the FFRF, eel, wrasse, hammer corals, and CUC. Still though, $350 for about $2500 worth of stuff is a steal. 

How many questions have I actually answered and how many have I created??? :fun:


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

i love you ahaha! someone finally doing research and asking questions before they buy!


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

lol i know saltwater takes a lot more upkeep than fresh....so i want to know what i'm doing! lmao. thanks guys, you're VERY helpful! 

funlad- the pictures helped a lot, hehe. i'm better if i have visual as well as info. 

kay-bee- thank you! i wasn't sure what exactly rock did for the tank as a whole so that was good to know. 

i made a whole long list of things i thought i might need from reading other threads and other sites so i'm glad i'm asking! i really need to read the thread on lighting before i even comment on that yet....and i also bought the Saltwater for Dummies book so i have something to finally read. amazon will probably supply the other books i will look into getting as well. i really want to try a saltwater tank, it sounds much more rewarding than FW...no offence to anyone!


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?cPath=1_58_466&products_id=1582

http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?cPath=1_58_466&products_id=3369

would either of these be worthwhile? instead of having to buy water?

what about this for a sump system? http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?cPath=1_276_354_564&products_id=3804

or is this more a sump? http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?cPath=1_276_354_512&products_id=3208

for sand is there any particular kind that's better for different types of marine tanks? is one better for reef or doesn't it matter?


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

is this worthwhile? http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?cPath=1_55_554&products_id=3653

live sand? better than "normal" plain sand?http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/index.php?cPath=1_59_523

sorry for posting in a row! i thought i was done researching for the night =P guess not


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

Regarding the Coralife 50 GPD Pure-Flo II 3 Canister RO Unit and Coralife Pure Flo Add-On DI Canister, the would both be worthwhile and less expensive in the long run.

Some clarification though: the DI Canister is an add-on to the RO Unit and is not meant to be used independent of the RO unit.

The RO unit produces RO water which typically removes 98-99% of the total dissolved solids/TDS from the water. So if, for example the tap water TDS was 250ppm, the RO output water would be reduced to about 5ppm. With the DI add on, the result will be RO/DI water. The 5ppm TDS of the RO water would be reduced to 0ppm by the DI. 

Optimally you would want an RO/DI unit instead of an RO unit for maximized water purity. 

Other RO/DI options include: (I'd recommend getting the most stages that fit with your budget)
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store...s-deionization-systems/standard-ro-di-systems

http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_di_systems.htm

I'd recommend getting a TDS meter so you will be aware of the TDS water of both the RO and DI stages (the DI resin will exhaust quicker than the RO membrane). I personally use two in-line TDS meters and a hand held TDS meter.

I'd recommend getting aragonite or aragonite-based sand (such as http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?cPath=1_59_496&products_id=1721), which is the type I use. It will help buffer the pH of the water and typically contributes calcium and other essential minerals and elements to the system. Any sand will work, however. 

If you are acquiring live rock, then getting live sand isn't required because the live rock will seed the sand (that is to say the life in and on the rocks will colonize the sand). If given the choice I'd get live sand from another hobbyist or an LFS because it would likely contain the sand burrowing and sand sifting micro detritiores and such. I think the live sand sold in bags only comes with the beneficial bacteria (so they say).


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

i meant those RO/DI links to me taken as i'd have both =) or if i should go with what you suggested from the filter guys i'd be willing to spend the money. just want something more worthwhile for the money

the filter guys sound like they have some good stuff. was thinking either the ocean wave or ocean reef....and my that i mean the $160 or the $199, not less expensive ones before. would either work just as well? do you know, better than me, what exactly id added to the $199 ocean reef? doesn't seem like a*whole* lot but my ignorant eyes could be wrong lol. unless that video explains it x.x maybe i should go watch that....

okay...i read the thread on lighting, as well as the link college linked near the end, andddd i have a question. i was set to go for MH, but for a 40 gallon would fluorescent be better? this is probably an age old debate but i felt i needed to ask. if fluorescents mean i need a smaller heater, i'd be okay with that as long as the light was more evenly spaced. or since MH heat some of the water, as well, but focus the light more...would those seem better in a 40 gallon? i'm not sure a 40 gallon would be big enough to combine them? the thread and link answered and explained a lot...but left a lot more questions >.< 

i know..i know...i have this book that might help...as well as all of the internets but yeah. had to ask >_> i also know i said i was done for the night. see how effective that was???


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

The $199 Ocean Reef adds the 100 PSI pressure gauge and inline TDS meter.

If purchased separately the pressure gauge from them costs $14 and the TDS meter $35. So those plus the $160 unit would total $209, (which equates to a $10 discount if going with the Ocean Reef). 

Another option would be the Dual Carbon Optima Vision at this site:
http://www.purelyh2o.com/index.php?...shop.browse&category_id=7&Itemid=118&TreeId=1

It costs $159 with pressure gauge included. Additionally the pre-sediment filter and carbon filters are all rated 1 micron. The Ocean Wave and Ocean Reef have the 5 micron pre-sediment filter and carbon filter and a 0.6 micron carbon block. Purchasing their inline TDS meter ($29.40) means you get a unit equivalent to the Ocean Reef for $188.40. If you got the hand held TDS meter for $24.95 instead of the inline version, that would be even less. (and of course there are other sites that sell RO/DI units and accessories).

The components of the RO/DI units (filters, DI resin, tubing, etc) are all interchangeable, or maybe universal is the word. So you could replace the filters of a FilterGuys unit with the filters from BulkReefSupply or add additional stages from any other company).


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

If you're intending on getting SPS corals then MH is probably recommended, though there are SPS corals that can be maintained under T5 High Output/T5HO bulbs. If you're only interested in fish then intense lighting isn't required. Normal output fluorescent bulbs or power compact fluorescents/PC will do.

Soft corals and LPS corals will do well under MH, T5HO or PC lighting. It is possible to combine lighting (for example MH lighting with supplemental T5HO, PC or even VHO for the actinics). 

T5HO lighting probably runs the coolest of the three types, MH the hottest. PC's are also hot. I've got a 29gal tank with PC lighting and it runs 6 degrees warmer than room temperature (room currently at 76F, the tank is at 82F).


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

i really just want fish and live rock, so would T5's work just as well? is live rock considered a coral in this type of setting? or at all? i'm really Really glad i decided to ask questions before even attempting this lol, because when i go looking and to buy i will be knowledgeable!


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

T5's will work over a Fish Only With Live Rock/FOWLR set up. So will normal output bulbs such as those used with freshwater tanks (as an example I just have a single 40W normal output fluorescent bulb over my SW fish only 75gal tank.

Live rock is not coral, but some live rock may have remnants of dead coral skeleton on it, or even be partially comprised of it. Live corals can grow on live rock.


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

If you're not going with corals (i.e., a reef tank) then you could probably go with a RO unit instead of a RO/DI.


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## WolfyThom (Mar 11, 2011)

probably go with a RO? would it still be beneficial to go RO/DI? i just want what's best for the tank =)

and yes, i want fish and live rock but not corals. i think corals would be too much to take on for the first time since the lighting is a bigger issue with them. i would probably get T5's then...and a normal hood would work fine? well, obviously a hood that will utilize T5's but it doesn't have to be super fancy. or will a normal hood handle T5's? >.< the article in the lighting thread mentioned proper air flow but a normal hood is fine, right? if i got lil crawlies i wouldn't want them to be able to get out...

so many questions >.< i continue to thank you guys for being helpful!


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