# i dont know what to do



## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

this tank is driving me nuts.

i dont know if its working through the cycle, or if something went really wrong, or what.

i started out doing a fishless cycle. i filled up the tank and added enough pure ammonia to reach 4ppm. and waited. nothing happened for a week or so, and i got bored. so i went out and bought some Biospira. i added it, and within 24 hours my nitrites were 2ppm. 

a week went by, my nitrites went off the chart. the ammonia didn't go down at all. i got fed up, figured it had been a week, the biospira bacteria had found their way into the filter. i did a complete water change, refilled the tank, and added 4 glowlight tetras and a mystery apple snail.

the ammonia was less than .25 almost consistantly, but the nitrites kept spiking to .75 and i was doing 50-70% water changes every 12 hours just to keep the nitrites below .5

then the other day, the ammonia went up to .5 but i left the tank alone and didn't do any water changes, and the next morning, the ammonia was back to below .25 and the nitrites had actually gone down as well from .75 the night before to .5 in the morning.

now this morning, the ammonia is back up to .5 and the nitrites are up to .75 again. i did a 50% water change to get them down again.

what is going on?? as far as i know, there no rotting plant matter or anything. i vaccume the gravel every time i do a water change, i'm not over feeding....... why wont this stupid cycle finish??


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## fishboy (Feb 26, 2005)

that's messed up. From what i know you but bio-spira in first, then the next day just add fish, it's that simple


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

well personally, I think you got too impatient with the cycle. I done a fishless cycle and it took about 5 weeks to complete. Ive never dealt with those chemicals before so I cant help you there. it may just take some time to complete. Something else to consider is the reliability of your test kit. what kind is it?? How old is it??


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Well for starters, you need more patience. How do you know the tank isn't cycled? Have you tested the water with a different test kit? Yours could be bad. Have you tested for nitrAtes? Why are you changing water so often? Your tap could have ammonia in it. There are many reasons that would explain whats happening. The more you do, the more factors you have to consider. Just a guess but I would say your bacteria were starved and died off, then start to rebound, then get starved again with all the waterchanges and the cleaning of the gravel.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

i have a liquid master test kit from Aquarium Pharmasuicals. 

i tested my tap already and it has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and about 7 nitrates, and i've tested it several times in the past month since i started this tank and its been consistant.

i'm changing the water so often to keep the nitrites down because they are toxic to fish.

if the bacteria are starved, then why do my nitrites consistanly keep going up. the bacteria break the ammonia down into nitrites, and my ammonia has never been 0 in the tank since i started it.

so you think i should just let the ammonia and nitrites build up and kill my fish, rather than do water changes?


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## cucci67 (Aug 3, 2005)

I think he means you should have never added fish in the first place, then you wouldn't have half the problems you have now.

If you have another tank to keep the fish in until the cycle completes, that would be great. Otherwise, you might want to sell your fish back to the LFS for credit, they will not givbe you full price, but its only 4 fish and a snail, so it won't be expensive to buy them back.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

what would be the point of that? i just switched from doing a fishless cycle to doing a fish-ed cycle. i did a complete water change before i added the fish so i basically just started over, except that i had some bacteria already started from the biospira when i started over with fish.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

You also could have starved the bacteria by doing a complete waterchange. You could have shocked it by altering the temp drastically. You could have killed it by not properly treating the water before adding it to the tank. You could have removed a lot by doing a deep gravel cleaning (bacteria is there also as well as on plants, decoratios ect...)


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

I can tell you from my own wretched experience it probably won't get better unless you do a fishless cycle. The reason why is because I had this same problem. I ended up getting so frustrated I gave all my fish back and actually left the tank dry for quite some time before doing a fishless cycle...(This was my first try at a tank by the way, and it wasn't fun!) 

I kept doing large water changes to keep my fish from dieing which actually makes it worse in the long run. Like someone said earlier you are almost restarting the cycle everytime you do this because you've basically killed off the good bacteria you had to begin with. So more than likely either the fish will die or you'll do this forever. I found myself stuck in this same frustrating experience my first time, it last a month before I gave up and started the right way. I had no patience and I just wanted to see fish. I added too many fish too soon and I paid for it! So if yours is anything like mine, I'd give the fish back and do a fishless cycle for the next month. It is boring watching just water w/ no fish but trust me the patience will pay off. I did it right w/ my discus and not once have I ever had a problem out of their tank. So in the end waiting makes it all worth it! Good luck to you, and I hope it gets better whichever way you choose to go!


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## garfieldnfish (Jan 18, 2005)

I could not see anywhere in your account how big your fish tank is. When adding biospira you are supposed to add the entire fishload planned for the tank at the same time you add the biobugs. You waited and some of the bugs will have starved off. But I am sure there are still a few around (since ammonia was present from the fishless cycle) and it should not take long for them to rebound and be able to handle the fish load. I would remove the applesnail and put it in a rubbermaid or other plastic container. They are air breathing and it will survive for a week. That will cut down your bioload immediately. 4 glolights have a small bioload and whatever leftover biospira is in your tank it should be able to hand their waste. Feed little, no more then once a day. Do not do any water changes for a week. And then test the water again. This advise is based on the assumption that your tank is at least 10 gal. With a 5 gal tank I would do a 25% water change every 3 days. Then when your water tests better add the applesnail again.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

I am not so sure that the advice to put the snail in a rubbermaid container without a filter is a very good one. garfieldnfish says "That will cut down your bioload immediately", well this is very true. It will cut your bioload alot, because snails are messy creatures. But as to the statement "They are air breathing and it will survive for a week", well, this I'm not too sure about. They certainly are air-breathing, that's not in doubt, but since they are such messy creates, if you put them in a small container without a filter and don't do water changes, there's a chance that the ammonia that the snail will generate will kill it or at least seriously harm it.

Oh, wait, I think I get it, garfieldnfish is suggesting putting it in a rubbermaid container WITHOUT WATER for a week. This will basically make it shut down and go into a kind of hibernation, where it stays in its shell and just kind of hopes that it will somehow find its way back to water before it dries out... This may work... I have had apple snails out of water for about a day when they were shipped to me, but never for as long as a week. If you do try this, put some moist paper towels in the container to keep it from drying out, and make sure you don't completely seal up the plastic container; the snails do need fresh air to keep them alive during this sort of hibernation.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Rockabilly, you have two choices. 1. Take the fish back and do a fishless cycle. 2. Continue to cycle with your tetras..... You sound as if you know enough about both to make a decision. I would like to add a couple of observations, if I may. You have not mentioned your PH and hardness. This also plays a part. Bacteria does best in high PH/ hard water. Low PH/ soft water is difficult to cycle and it takes a long time. Could that be your problem? My other comment is that if you choose to cycle with your four tetras, when you finish you will have a bacteria colony that will support exactly four tetras. If you add one more fish, a mini cycle must occur in order to support that one additional fish. That's why you must add fish slowly over time. However, if you do a proper fishless cycle, you can add all your fish at the same time.
Good luck to you.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

Simpte said:


> You also could have starved the bacteria by doing a complete waterchange. You could have shocked it by altering the temp drastically. You could have killed it by not properly treating the water before adding it to the tank. You could have removed a lot by doing a deep gravel cleaning (bacteria is there also as well as on plants, decoratios ect...)


i am not a moron, stop talking to me like i am.

even after i did the complete water change, my ammonia was still around .25 ppm, because there was still some ammonia in the water trapped in the filter, and there was still some water in the gravel. 

i didn't alter the temp. its been 80 degrees since i put the heater in. i adjust the temp of the new water i pour in before i do a water change, and i treat it too. and i havent done a deep gravel clean, i just vaccumed an area that is less than 50% of the total gravel area very superficially to remove food that the fish missed. they wont eat it if it touches the gravel.




garfieldnfish said:


> I could not see anywhere in your account how big your fish tank is. When adding biospira you are supposed to add the entire fishload planned for the tank at the same time you add the biobugs. You waited and some of the bugs will have starved off.


its a 10 gallon. if you would actually read my first post, you would see that i added the biospira while i was doing the fishless cycle and there was 4ppm ammonia in the tank for the bacteria to eat. i know this is not the way your supposed to use biospira, and now i see that it was a waste of $13. i only did the full water change a week after i'd added the biospira, once i'd deemed it had had enough time to find its way into the filter and gravel and not be floating around in the water.


Ron V:

i learned recently from an expert that pH has many, many variables that are hugely inacurate when tested, as the tests only test the levels of certain minerals, when pH and kH are controlled by many, many more chemicals. high pH to a test may very well still seem like low pH to the fish because of the minerals and chemicals involved.

anyway, my pH is a constant 7.8

and while i dont have a test, i know for a fact we have hard water in the city.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

RockabillyChick said:


> i am not a moron, stop talking to me like i am.


I dont think anyone here thinks your a moron - we are just trying to cover all possibilities. :-|


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

simpte was talking to me as if i was a moron. suggesting that i would be so ignorant as to not bring the water to the temp of the tank and treat it before adding it. anyone who has owned any fish for any length of time would know to do this.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

also, i do have a 20 gallon tank that i could keep the tetras in temporarily, but its got no filter, heater, or hood in it. and it was once used to hold rats for about 2 weeks before i built them a proper cage.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

RockabillyChick said:


> simpte was talking to me as if i was a moron. suggesting that i would be so ignorant as to not bring the water to the temp of the tank and treat it before adding it. anyone who has owned any fish for any length of time would know to do this.


not necessisarily! You would be surprised at the people who have owned tanks for quite some time that dont know that kinda stuff and have never thought about it! I think he was asking to make sure as you didnt specifically state that you did those things and you can never assume that someone done something because it should be done.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

so, should i take the tetras out and put them in the 20 gallon with no heater or filter and continue doing a fishless cycle in the 10 gallon?


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

RockabillyChick said:


> so, should i take the tetras out and put them in the 20 gallon with no heater or filter and continue doing a fishless cycle in the 10 gallon?


no, I dont think I would suggest that - unless you can somehow get a filter of some type and clean that tank since it had rats in it. You could probably get a small HOT filter at walmart, petsmart or where ever you shop for less than 15 buks.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

i have no extra money right now to buy another filter. so if i dont move the tetras, what do i do about my stupid messed up cycle?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Rockabilly, what about the above advise, from several people, do you not understand? As I said before, you have two choices. You know what they are. There is no "magic pill" that will fix things for you.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

well, since I done a fishless cycle, I really dont know what to tell you. Beerleader was the only one with that same experience and she suggests you take the fish back. Is there someone who can maybe "house" them for you for a bit?? Is there something you can do to come up with the money for a small filter??
Maybe check eBay - you might find a real cheap on there - Here is one listed at walmart.com for $12.00 - http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635400


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

ron, what part of "No" don't you understand?

no, i will not take the fish back, their past the 15 day guarentee. and no, i don't know anyone with an established tank. i lost my job, i wont start working again until the 30th, so i can't afford another filter and heater.

if i were to put the tetras and everything in a bucket or something, totally clean out the tank, fresh water, everything, and get another packet of biospira, and follow the directions this time, adding the fish back after 24 hours, would that work?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Wow, settle down. I wonder why you lost your job??? Noooo Ron, you shouldn't have said that. Be patient, be patient... OK, OK now I'm back. Actually Rockabilly the Biospira might work by just dumping it in without doing anything else. I've never used it but I think you are suppose to put it in at the same time you add your fish. The directions would address that, I would think. Remember tho, Your tank would be cycled for four tetra's and no more. Isn't that stuff pretty expensive?


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2005)

yes. so im thinking if she can afford biospira, then she can probably afford something like a sponge filter and a cheap heater for that other tank and then do the fishless cycle on the one she's having problems with. what kind of tetras are these?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

The other tank won't be cycled either tho!


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

i dont know what a sponge filter is. a 15 gallon whisper filter like the one i have on my 10 gallon tank is $11, and a 15 gallon whisper submursible heater like i have on my 10 gallon is $13. those are the least expensive i could find other than the $7 two gallon heater at walmart.

biospira is $13. the only other fish i want to add is a dwarf gourami and maybe a 5th glowlight.

and, not that i have to defend myself to you, i didn't lose my job, technically, the company i was working with through a temp agency just hit their slow period and had no use for temps anymore.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

ron v said:


> The other tank won't be cycled either tho!


i have a betta in a 1.5 gallon bowl with no filter and no heater. i do a 100% water change once a week and he's perfectly happy. this is how i've cared for bettas for 15 years. 4 glowlight tetras, that arent even full grown yet, in a 20 gallon aquarium, would be such a tiny bioload, i could probably get away with 25% water changes once a week and vaccume the bottom, and not even have to worry about a cycle, or even use a filter, at least for a couple weeks.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2005)

ron v said:


> The other tank won't be cycled either tho!


sorry, wasnt thinking. lol


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Like I said earlier I feel for you cause I had this same problem when I sat up a cichlid tank. I didn't wanna wait cause I got to excited and bored watching just water. But it never got better til I took my fish back to the store. I had to start over! Its your choice to keep them and try to work through it, I understand why you want to, I tried the same thing for a while. Finally I got so tired of water changes and high readings I basically said "screw it" and didn't want a tank at all it was so irritating. Once I did the fishless cycle I haven't had a prob since. But it is frustrating and constant work to try to keep the levels low, and it usually doesn't ever get better.  sorry to tell ya, but that was my experience.

And p.s. I don't think anyone in here would ever mean to talk down to you. I think they were just trying to help. And you'd be surprised at the stuff ppl really don't know. I've had fish a year and up until recently I NEVER adjusted my water temp, and I times I still don't if I am in a hurry. Luckily my fish have all been fine, but I don't always follow the rules. I also am one that hardly ever floated a fish or quarantined him before adding it in. But I'd be the first to get mad when I got one that was sick and made my entire tank sick. So seriously don't take it the wrong way. You wouldn't believe what some of us "experienced" fish owners actually still do.  Have a good one and good luck!


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

While I was going to leave this thread alone, it seems you are earnest in your care about what happens so here's what I would do...........

Move everything except the gravel to the 20 (filter, heater, fish). Establish the filter on a larger tank. The ammonia and nitrite will not spike as fast as it would in a 10 gallon with the same bio-load. The filter (though I'm not sure what kind it is), will develop to the point where it could handle the 10 gallon. There will be less stress on the neons in a larger cycling tank than a smaller one.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

GOOD NEWS!!!!!

i havent done a water change in two days. i tested this morning and the ammonia was below .25, nitrites were just above .5

i tested again about half an hour ago, and the ammonia is so low it may as well be 0, its so hard to tell on the strip, and the nitrites went down to .25! this is with no water changes in two days! i'm about to do one now to drop the nitrates, since they're about 20 and i dont like them to get that high since after 20 i cant tell the difference between the colors on the card.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

20 in nitrates is not bad


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

20 nitrates is fine. I hope that you've learnt a valuable lesson now, and if you haven't, then I guess you ARE a moron.
You could of avioded this whole senario in the first place by adding biospira and the fish into a new tank at the same time. Never mind, we all need to learn somewhere. (Even cichlid Man went to school).


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

i know 20 nitrates isn't too high, but i cant let it get above that because i cant tell 20 nitrates from 80 nitrates on the test card, so i have to keep it below 20.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

RockabillyChick said:


> i know 20 nitrates isn't too high, but i cant let it get above that because i cant tell 20 nitrates from 80 nitrates on the test card, so i have to keep it below 20.


really?? why is that?? Which test kit is it?? Maybe you should contact the manufacturer for another card


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

Aquarium Pharmasuitcals. the colors are different, but they're all red and theres only like 1 or 2 shades difference, and its just SO HARD to tell which one it is when compared with the liquid, which is never going to be PERFECTLY on the color anyway.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

RockabillyChick said:


> Aquarium Pharmasuitcals. the colors are different, but they're all red and theres only like 1 or 2 shades difference, and its just SO HARD to tell which one it is when compared with the liquid, which is never going to be PERFECTLY on the color anyway.


I have that same kit and yeah, it is hard to tell once it gets past the orange looking color. I either stand in front of a window that the sun is coming in or I take my test tube and card outside in the sunlight - that helps a ton! try that and see if it helps you to read it.


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## garfieldnfish (Jan 18, 2005)

A 10 gal, 4 glolights and one applesnail. That is a low bioload. Leave the tank alone and it will cycle just fine. The more you mess with it, the longer the cycle will take. Like I wrote earlier, I would remove the applesnail and put it in a rubbermaid container. The water in that container you need to change out every few days, depending on the container size, but the snail will be fine in there. I had my snails provide me with more off spring then even my 11 fish tanks could handle. They hatched in a 2.5 gal plant tank and once they outgrew this tank, I put the majority of the babies (close to 100 of them) into a 4 gal rubbermaid box until they were large enough to be sold on aquabid. I did add an airstone to this box but that is not necessary since you would only be keeping the snail in there temporary anyway. Neither the plant tank nor the rubbermaid box had a filter and they were thrieving. 
If you absolutely cannot resist doing a water change, make it a small one (no more then 25%) and don't mess with the filter housing or filter pad.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

um, my cycle just finished tonight. my nitrites reached 0.


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