# Sick Shubunkin?



## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Hello, I have a 30 gal tank with 5 goldfish(comet, telescope eyes, Ryunkin, Oranda, Shubunkin) 4 corys, and 3 swordtails(yes, they are working out fine even though it says they are not compatable).

I think the telescope eye started getting swim bladder due to oddly swimming patterns.My oranda started acted the same way a few days later. I checked all my levels for PH, ammonia, nitrites. I added aquarium salt and the oranda and telescope eyes seem to be doing better. On to the shubunkin...

This morning before work I noticed he was upright with his face toward the bottom of the tank, kind of doing a headstand. He one eye is a really dark red, somewhat bloodshot looking while the other is normal. I just took him out and secluded him into my 5 gal hospital tank. I added aquarium salt to that tank as well..

I did add a water treatment to my goldfish tank to help clear anything up.

Does anyone have any ideas what disease the shubunkin has? I just signed up so I will take some pics in the future of the tanks..thanks in advance!:fish:


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

for starters, shubunkin can attain lengths of 14" and should be pond fish IMO. Your tank is horribly overstcked. I am guessing you have nitrates through the roof, and since you are obviously a begginner, have you cycled the tank?


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

i am not a beginner with fish keeping..the shubunkin I bought gets a max size of 8", you may be referring to kois. my nitrates are perfect. I run a 60 gal filter and a large bubble ring for oxygen purposes. I actually have 2 30 gal tanks.My girlfriend has a 1000 gal pond, 30 gal, and 10 gal tank.So I am not a beginner to fish keeping. I have a stock of various test kits, medicines, etc etc. I based the tank stocking per the information I have read and gathered. 

if you read my post, i said my nitrates are perfect. Before you start criticizing me, read my post first..Sorry to be abrupt, but your comment got under my skin.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Also, yes, I had these tanks running for a weeks time before the fish were put in. I have had these tanks for a few months now.No issues up until now.

EDIT-I just checked on him and he is completely upside in the hosp tank. he is breathing, but laying on the bottom of the tank..any ideas?


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

fishy died...poor guy..his one eye is definiterly bloodshot red.no other indications of any dropsy, ick, or anything like that..that sucks


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

First, yes your fish are incompatible. Not because they won't get along but because they have different requirements. Goldfish are coldwater fish, cories and swords are tropical fish. A 30g is WAY too small for that many goldfish, as goldfish have a huge bioload. And if you are an experienced fish keeper, as you claim to be, you'd know there is no "perfect" level of nitrates. Please post your exact ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels so we can try to help narrow down the problem. But its more than likely from a water quality problem due to being horribly overstocked. 

BTW, a 30g tank isn't nearly large enough to manage one 8" fish, much less with the rest of them.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

When you let your tank run for a few weeks, were you feeding a source of ammonia, or did you just fill it with water and turn on the filter?


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> First, yes your fish are incompatible. Not because they won't get along but because they have different requirements. Goldfish are coldwater fish, cories and swords are tropical fish. A 30g is WAY too small for that many goldfish, as goldfish have a huge bioload. And if you are an experienced fish keeper, as you claim to be, you'd know there is no "perfect" level of nitrates. Please post your exact ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels so we can try to help narrow down the problem. But its more than likely from a water quality problem due to being horribly overstocked.
> 
> BTW, a 30g tank isn't nearly large enough to manage one 8" fish, much less with the rest of them.


what i meant by perfect is that it is showing 0 ppm.sorry for the confusion.the shubunkin did die last night. i woke up today and my one peppered cory is dead.

i believe there could be some parasite in the tank. my PH is at exactly 7.0, ammonia and nitrites are 0 ppm, temp is 76.

i am still not understanding why you are saying they are overstocked.. per petsmart, petco and other local fishy stores, i was told the same thing at every store. 5 goldys would be fine in the 30..


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Zoe said:


> When you let your tank run for a few weeks, were you feeding a source of ammonia, or did you just fill it with water and turn on the filter?


i filled the tank and added bacteria and it ran for about a week before adding any fish


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

First, very few people in petstores know much about caring for fish long term, nor do they care. Your fish dies, you'll just come back for more. No, 30g isn't sufficient for 5 goldfish. Its barely sufficient for one fancy, definitely not comets or the others which get TWO FEET long when properly housed. Keeping them in a tank too small will cause stunting, which will lead to health issues and premature death. A properly cared for goldfish can live several decades.

Unless your tank is very heavily planted, its almost impossible for you to have zero nitrites. Are you using test strips or liquid kits? Test strips are notoriously inaccurate.

You say you added bacteria and ran it for a week before adding fish. What kind of bacteria did you add? What exactly did you do? The only readily available product with the correct live bacteria is Biospira. I'm sure the pet store told you something else worked, but it doesn't. Cycle, Stress Zyme, etc., doesn't work.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

i did have test strips, but i felt they were innacurate like you said. i have the liquid kits for testing. they are great 

the tank is moderately planted i would say..i'll try and snap a pic today if i get a chance.its tough with a 3 year old running around like a monster.LOL

the tank has 4 goldys now and i am not adding any more fish to it since everyone is feeling that it is overstocked..i would like to add another cory since they are bottom dwellers anyway.i have 1 peppered and 2 albinos now...do you think i should add another one or no?

the bacteria was topfin bacteria supplement.from the researching i did, this one seemed to be ok and alot of people reviewed it well.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

the test kits only show 0 ppm, and thats what the levels are testing at..


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Not only would I recommend not adding anymore fish, I would highly recommend saving up for a much bigger tank and eventually, some are going to need to go into a pond. As I said, goldfish are very messy fish with a very high bioload. They need a high level of filtration and a lot of water, per fish, in order to survive and not be stunted. I'm not sure what your maintenance regimen is but I would recommend no less than 50% water changes twice a week with very thorough gravel vacs both times.

The Topfin bacteria you got is pretty much worthless. Biospira is the only readily available product that has the right live bacteria in it needed for cycling. And any bacteria will need to have a source of food (ammonia) or it will die. Unfortunately, that means you put all those fish into an uncycled tank which is causing the health problems and deaths. 

I don't understand though why you are getting zero nitrate readings, along with zero nitrites and ammonia. Are you sure you are following the directions exactly? Something should be showing up. If there are no ammonia or nitrites, there should be some measureable nitrates. If there are no nitrates, there should be some ammonia or nitrites. Doesn't make sense that there are none of any of them.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Sorry to hear that two of your fish dies  I would hazard a guess that it is new tank syndrome (when fish are introduced into an uncycled tank) coupled with poor water quality.

As Tina said, unfortunately Petstores will say anything to sell more fish. Some petstores are great, but most of them, especially the big chains like petsmart, will tell you that you can put a goldfish in a bowl (which you can't), or 6 goldfish in a 30gallon tank, or a bala shark in a 30gallon tank (a bala shark will need at least 100gallons). 
http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/care.html#Bowl vs tank
That website explains it pretty well. It's not 100% accurate, but it's pretty close and it's a good guideline for a beginner. Fancy Goldfish are pretty big fish to begin with - couple that with the fact that they are very messy fish, and they need a lot of room to be happy and healthy. Other goldfish like comets can attain lengths of 1.5 to 2 feet and will require a huge aquarium (150+ gallons) or an outdoor pond. If that is something you think you can do, then by all means go for it! There's nothing nicer like a well-kept goldfish pond in a garden.
Otherwise, please find a more suitable home for your fish. In the tank they're in now, you're killing them AND the other fish with the high levels of waste.

Your 30gallon tank would be ideal for your other fish. You could get a heater and make it a community tank with a few more swordtails and more cories - because they really don't belong in the same tank as goldfish. And you could look into investing into a larger thank for your fancies. An easy rule when it comes to fancies: each goldfish needs at least 15gallons of space - 20 gallons is better. So, if you want to keep two, you need 35 to 40 gallons. If you want to keep 5, you need 90-100 gallons.

The good news is, you can find a 100gallon tank for pretty cheap if you look.



In the meantime, I would invest in a liquid test kit. Your reading don't make any sense to me; it is highly improbably that your nitrites, nitrates and ammonia are all at 0ppm.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

thanks for the help.I really appreciate it.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

"my PH is at exactly * 7.0*, ammonia and nitrites are 0 ppm, temp is *76*."
This is your problem man. Goldfishes prefer a higher pH, and a much lower temperature. If you don't go along with their requirements, their immune system plummets and you get a lot of different diseases kickin you butt such as the swim bladder issue you were experiencing. IF these two parameters don't change, you'll be left with just cories and swordtails.

Goldfish DO NOT BELONG in a tropical tank for a reason. 

As for switching it from a goldfish tank to a tropical tank, cories prefer the water you have now to slightly acidic, and swordtails like your water right where its at.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

You didnt even cycle your tank? Letting it run and cycling are totally different. 
Everything I have read that is a valid source says 12-14", and that alone would be way too much for a 30 gallon, on top of the other mess of fish you have, may being able to reach 6". as I said, horribly overstocked.

It got under MY skin a little when you acted so arrogantly towards me, even though you were obviously pretty ignorant until now.

I am done with this thread, good luck.


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

Take a step back, GS. He appears willing to listen and is trying to learn. He was listening to his local chain pet stores which, we know, is not a good thing to do but for those who don't know, they think the clerks have some idea of what they are talking about. He's not the first to be duped and lead down the wrong path.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Gourami Swami said:


> You didnt even cycle your tank? Letting it run and cycling are totally different.
> Everything I have read that is a valid source says 12-14", and that alone would be way too much for a 30 gallon, on top of the other mess of fish you have, may being able to reach 6". as I said, horribly overstocked.
> 
> It got under MY skin a little when you acted so arrogantly towards me, even though you were obviously pretty ignorant until now.
> ...


well next time don't stereotype a forum member from the get go and it won't happen. And there was nothing arrogant about my reply to you. You started the slandering so it is how it is.see you around or not.. cheers


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Boxermom said:


> Take a step back, GS. He appears willing to listen and is trying to learn. He was listening to his local chain pet stores which, we know, is not a good thing to do but for those who don't know, they think the clerks have some idea of what they are talking about. He's not the first to be duped and lead down the wrong path.


yes, you are correct. local FS, online sites, books, etc etc. from the research I gathered, the fish I have in the tank shared the same Ph ranges, temps, etc etc. I knew from the start that swordtails and GF are not compatible. I wanted to try it and I am not sorry I did. You do learn from your mistakes, and I regret to have losing 2 fish to learn it, but that is how it went.


As to an update of the tank, My telescope eye goldfish is in the hospital tank getting better. I am doing 4 gal water changes every 3-4 days and vaccuming as well. I popped in a new filter as well just as a precaution. 

The 3 goldfish that are still alive are going into a new separate 30 gal tank. the swords and corys will stay where they are. i'll probably get a pleco or another bottom feeder to stick with the goldys for now..

running (3) 30 gal tanks should be interesting..

Again, thanks for everyone's help.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

Fishfirst said:


> "my PH is at exactly * 7.0*, ammonia and nitrites are 0 ppm, temp is *76*."
> This is your problem man. Goldfishes prefer a higher pH, and a much lower temperature. If you don't go along with their requirements, their immune system plummets and you get a lot of different diseases kickin you butt such as the swim bladder issue you were experiencing. IF these two parameters don't change, you'll be left with just cories and swordtails.
> 
> Goldfish DO NOT BELONG in a tropical tank for a reason.
> ...


the Ph range states 6.5-7.5, so I chose 7.0 since it was inbetween? 65-75 degree temp. I did lower my temp to 71..Is it safe to say that the 7.0 PH is ok for them? One site I frequented before I bought fish was www.peteducation.com.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> I wanted to try it and I am not sorry I did. You do learn from your mistakes, and I regret to have losing 2 fish to learn it, but that is how it went.


Unfortunately, when you experiment with that type of thing, especially knowing that goldfish and tropicals aren't compatible, you put your fish at risk. And they didn't have a choice. Your 'experiment' = their deaths.

A pH of 7.0 should be fine, but when you say its from 6.5 to 7.5, does that mean it is fluctuating? Or is that just what you test kit says for that color, and you're just approximating? If it is fluctuating, what is your kH and GH?

Glad to hear you are getting some more tanks. It's easy to get more and more and more... I'd have more but I don't have room  good luck!


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

the 6.5-7.5 is the range that was stated on the pet education site. My PH isnt fluctuating at all.it is dead at 7.0. 

Yeah, I know that swords and goldys do not go well, so I am doing the humane thing and getting another tank for them.. I may get lucky and pickup a 48 or 50 instead..muwhaha


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