# Nitrates



## BabyGirl77 (Nov 2, 2015)

I just thought of a really good question and I would like to get some thoughts and opinions on it. The question is: when a tank is cycled, if you don't/can't keep up with water changes, why do the nitrates go up? I don't get it, if a tank is cycled then the nitrates should stay at the level they are at even if you happen to miss a bunch of water changes, but in my experience, the nitrates go up. So again, the question is: when a tank is cycled, if you don't/can't keep up with water changes, why do the nitrates go up?


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

May be better to find a good article in regards the Nitrification process, 
so you may research terms used for a better understanding of the cycle.

Nitrates are basically a by product of the nitrification process and understanding the process will answer your questions.


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## e048 (Dec 23, 2010)

Nitrates are the final product of the nitrogen cycle in nature anerobic bacteria break nitrates down to nitrogen and oxygen and oxygen by products in your tank those bacteria can't do that so it builds up and builds up. 

Use this example: if I keep putting trash bags on the curb but there's nobody to take them to the dump then they pile up and up until they become a problem. In our tanks water changes replace the bacteria since they don't live in most people's tanks.

Only place that this can occur is in a deep sand bed or very porous and large live rock in sw


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

here is nothing on this earth that always remains unchanged.the most constant thing is the ocean.the PH and the specific gravity....but even they change a little here and there.how can one expect anything to stay the same.
as simply as i can put it...the nitrification process start with an ammonia source..usually live animals...fish , inverts etc.between the uneaten foods , the animals waste and respiration ammonia is produced.bacteria consumes the ammonia and turns it into Nitrites..then bacteria consumes the nitrites and changes them into nitrates.as the bacteria colony grows , it consumes at a much more rapid pace keeping the ammonia and nitrite low or at zero.but the nitrates , which are the end product build..having some live plants will help to keep nitrates down but only to a certain degree..regular water changes dilute the nitrate levels....


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

If the fish get fed, Nitrate will accumulate.
Unless you have a denitrator, of course. Freshwater tanks almost never have denitrators. Not worth the trouble.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Wow, good question. And good answers given.


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## BabyGirl77 (Nov 2, 2015)

Yeah I was pondering that question this morning. I know the nitrogen cycle, was thinking about it and was wondering about the question I asked. I may read up on the nitrogen cycle again and look through all the answers to the question I asked, in order to get a better understanding of why nitrates go up without water changes.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Nitrates go up because your fish keep pooping. 

Food turns into fish poo, the "good" bacteria turn the fish waste into nitrates. Plants use some of that, the rest you have to take out via water changes before levels get toxic for the fish. I suppose if you had enough plants or no fish, nitrates wouldn't rise as much? But others have answered this better than I.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

If you have enough plants then you would never have nitrates go up, thus eliminating the need for water changes. It is very hard to do this but it has been done before.


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## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

Sure.....If you want a very few small fish and a tank full of plants. That's not what most of us want.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Ha, who said anything about small fish? I think I read something about a public aquarium having a system like this. This was the preferred method of keeping an aquarium back in the day. I don't remember what day it was but I know that it was a LONG time ago. 
Also I disagree, most people love aquatic plants. Look at Jeane09 sig. (s)he has 2 planted tanks. I myself have a planted tank. There are multiple forums about aquatic plants, some people keep fishtanks without fish. They just do plants. I have a small 5 gallon that is planted with only about 2 cherry shrimp. I don't know how the plants are surviving with only 2 cherry shrimp giving them food (poop).


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Can you honestly tell me that these tanks are not beautiful? http://www.aquascapingworld.com/gallery/images/769/1_Fangorn_Forest.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tLZt85qGILU/UUozuHkFdHI/AAAAAAAAALc/e4iy8z3H4yo/s1600/1_Fluo01.jpg http://ideasforlife.biz/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Аquarium-in-our-home-10.jpg (> a little hard to see) https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/25/e1/25/25e1256b388b5669949a646cc104eaf0.jpg http://aquascapinglove.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/more-than-300-2.jpg https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ff/34/71/ff34714787b3da27815e59f8527b283f.jpg farm1.static.flickr.com/136/325174818_f6b774fcb7.jpg 

I know this one is not very good but the tree is AMAZING https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/30/23/52/30235293db3ab67d5362e11c5cc6ec56.jpg


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

And in all of the tanks you posted, the fish are small and few?

Water changes are still needed as you will need to replenish trace elements 
which are depleted over time. Just as important as removing nitrAtes.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

big b said:


> If you have enough plants then you would never have nitrates go up, thus eliminating the need for water changes. It is very hard to do this but it has been done before.



For the average hobbyist water changes cannot be avoided
well they can but to the detriment of the fish.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

If you use co2 then the plants will grow faster thus taking in more of the bad stuff like nitrates. They would grow so fast that the nitrates wouldn't have a chance to go up. But you would have to plan this very precise. Look up what plants would be best for the tnak, which ones would take in the most nitrates and other things. And I wasn't trying to prove anything about fish size when I posted those pictures, I was trying to prove that many people would love to have a tank like that even if there wasn't very many fish in it.
But you are right, we would have to put in more nutrients once they are depleted. I think I will look more into the topic of a no water change tank and come back when/if I have found any information that could back up my statement. What's the use of a bold statement if you can't back it up with facts?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

do you not think it would be wise to do the research to back up your statements before you put them out there ? that helps to keep ones integrity in tact.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't think too far ahead.


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## BabyGirl77 (Nov 2, 2015)

lohachata said:


> do you not think it would be wise to do the research to back up your statements before you put them out there ? that helps to keep ones integrity in tact.


I agree with you lohachata. 

big b: It is always a good idea to research to back up statements before putting them on any forum. Many people do lurk on forums and are looking for information to help them with their aquariums and their fish. So we need to keep this in mind when we post on any forum, especially this one.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Every so often a product comes out advertising "never do a water change again". Some are real denitrification products, some are just snake oil, some are dangerous. It is possible to go for a true balanced "ecology" or to deal with nitrated chemically, but water changes are cheaper, easier, and safer than most of those methods. Public aquariums do do water changes, just out of their central filtration systems. 

I think of nitrates as a good indicator, if they are up, other solutes are likely out of whack also. 

The plant geeks drive me nuts when they add nitrate, though. I'm like, Hey, you have 0 nitrate, Great, that means you can add more fish. Poor fools don't even keep cichlids because they can't stand competing aquascapers.

I do think you could do a very nice nearly autonomous FW tank with a refugium, auto titration of ferts, auto-topoff and other high-end SW quality equip. I just can't afford to try it.

Since most new member are beginners. The advice here tends to simple and cheap and that's a good thing.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Ah, the myth of the "Balanced Aquarium."

We've been chasing that pipe dream since the 1850's. We've come close to acheiving it a few times, or thought we did, but it always slips away in the end.


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## BabyGirl77 (Nov 2, 2015)

So what you are saying TOS, is that there is no such thing as a balanced aquarium, is this correct? Also how did the myth of the balanced aquarium begin?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't know where it started, probably with one of those "cycle" diagrams with arrows, then some teacher tried in a tank.

It ought to be possible in the short term, nitrate produced = nitrate consumed. But things never stay the same, fish and plants grow or die, pH swings. If you read the fine print on the "balance" products they all say something like do a 100% water change every 6 months. In the long-term any closed system will get out of whack. Really, its a good idea to do a "big clean" and "big water change" to any tank every 6-12 months.

People say "power filters aren't natural" but you go to any natural body of water and take a tank-sized amount out of it and you'll be very lucky to find even one fish. Most natural water is sparsely populated.


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Any aquarium or bowl must have water changes. If not you end up with a cesspool. Plants do remove a lot of the nitrites but having a perfect balance is almost impossible with most people. The ratio of plants to fish or other living organisms is a wide margin. Even an outside pond needs fresh water to stay viable.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

I just thought of something. If I have a fish tank with plants in it. There is a perfect fish to plant ratio. The fish has babies, then plants stay the same. Eventually the baby fish gets sick and dies, balance is then restored. This happens several times. Would this be considered a balanced aquarium?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

No idea. I think there are books in German on the subject.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

No, it wouldn't be balanced. That would be a "dynamic" aquarium.


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## big b (Aug 17, 2014)

Funny thing, I just learned the word dynamic in language arts yesterday


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