# Well, I started off with one tank......



## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

Hi there and this is my first post on these forums.....

I got my kids a 30gal tank last Christmas and of course after a few months they gave up on it and I had to step up to the plate to look after it. 

Lo and behold, an addict was born and I read everything that I could on maintaining the tropical community tank and its been a huge learning experience and a whole lot of fun.....

I got to know the guys at the LFS and although my tank is a bit over-stocked, I maintain it with twice weekly water changes and constant monitoring etc. So far so good. 

I've always had a thing for cichlids but didn't have the tank size to humanely keep a lot of them so opted out of taking it any further. 

Then, last week while cruising around on craigslist, I spied an ad for a 75 gal c/w 300w heater, marineland 350 pro canister filter system c/w 60 on the side, python, all gravel, crapload of lavarock etc. and it was posted for 50.00 including the stand. Of course, I called and went over to take a peek at the 'still running' tank and immediately offered the guy 40.00 and hauled it home in my mini-van....:lol: 

I just am in the process of re-finishing the oak stand and will be adding water to the tank to begin cycling it hopefully on the weekend.

A few question I have are as follows:

1. Guy at LFS says that 350 and 60 is enough filtration for cichlids. Is this correct. I would like to point out that I do water changes 2x a week as well as vacuum out tank 1x a week besides this. (I actually tested the filtration on my 30gal and it sucked like crazy...Scared the crap out of the fish in there...)
2. Is 300w heater big enough for this size tank?
3. I have read and heard differing opinions on substrate. Is a small gravel mix ok instead of fine sand. I've heard horror stories with cleaning and clogging filtration with just a sand substrate.
4. I have never bought a used tank before. If I do not rinse gravel that came with it and put canister filtration on the tank that was running just a few days ago, will it cycle my tank faster?
5. I have heard differing opinions on adding salt to the tank as well as baking soda to increase ph etc. My ph out of my tap is 7.8 and I've always added a bit of salt weekly in my 30gal and have incredibly heathly fish. Anyone use salt in a cichlid tank? 
6. How many cichlids per tank. I've heard 1 fish per 3 gallons. Is this correct?
7. I am going to be getting slate from the local rock place here and building some caves etc and using crazy glue gel to fasten them together. I made a few rock caves for my 30gal and just got the rocks from the ocean and boiled them etc before I added them to my current 30gal setup. Same deal in a cichlid tank?
8. Hubby wants an eel. (wants wants wants but of course does not know the first thing about looking after the tanks...hehehe) Eels go good with cichlids or no?
9. Lastly, I've read that adding a few ****************tail shrimp to the tank can be used instead of a sacraficial fish. I don't really want to kill anything to get the tank to cycle.

Thanks for all the information here. I'm so excited about getting some cichlids but want to get the tank primed up and going first.

btw-I will also be adding a few airstones for better oxygenation.

Fishgal


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

1. Yes a 350 is probably sufficient for a cichlid tank as long as you watch the flow and clean it out when it starts to slow. Ask again when you know what you are going to stock.
2. Yes a 300W heater should be enough unless you are keeping it in an unheated space such as a basement or garage. Again, check the temp. occasionally, when a heater dies your tank can get too hot or too cold overnight.
3. Small gravel is fine for most cichlids. A 350 has its impeller at the bottom, so it doesn't do well with sand. If you put sand in it, put a sponge over the filter intake to keep the sand out. Sand in a 350 means buying a new impeller and a new clear plastic canister. 
4. I would rinse both the canister filter media and the gravel in cold tap water. It would cycle faster if you didn't rinse it all, but you really don't want to start a tank with decaying crap in the gravel. You will still cycle faster with old rinsed gravel than with new or well-cleaned stuff.
5. Check your TDS or hardness. If your TDS is >100 ppm, which is fairly common where pH is 7.8, you don't need to add anything. If your hardness is low, salt is better than nothing, but "cichlid salts" are even better. 
6. Depends on the cichlid. 
7. I just pile up the rocks, glueing them together makes them too hard to get out of the tank for cleaning.
8. I don't know. I kind of doubt it, but read up on eels.
9. Yes, frozen people-food shrimp are a good, if stinky way, to cycle without fish. Starting from used media and gravel, I predict the tank will cycle within 2 weeks.
Air stones don't hurt, but if the filters' output is churning the water's surface, you most likely don't need.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2008)

Just to add to what emc7 said, if you buy the right sand, you can have an all sand substrate. Pool Filter Sand (sold at pool supply stores) is a heavier, larger grain sand that settles to the bottom and does not suspend in the water. I have it in my 55g (well half of it) and in my 10g Multi tank and I have had no problems with it not settling. You should have no problem with it getting in the filter. If you are still worried, small gravel will be fine.

What type of cichlids were you wanting? When most people say "a cichlid tank" I take them to mean African Mbuna. The tank setup usually has alot to do with what type of fish (specifically) you plan to house.

A tip about the shrimp, put it in the foot of some pantyhose/stockings for easy clean up after the cycle. Otherwise, you'll have a huge mess.


edit: Oh and welcome to FF!


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## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks for the info guys..

I suspect that I will just use the small sized gravel instead of sand considering the canister filter and its cons with sand. Great info btw !!!

I planned on stocking with Africans as this is what my dude at LFS said to do. Which is better really? I understand that if I go the african route, I should stock less than going the american route right?

Also, talking with him this morning, he said 12 max for africans in this size of tank. Also said to introduce 6 at a time. I'm thinking of getting 2 different species in groups of 3 each. Good idea or no?

Also, how is overstocking with Africans? Pros and cons considering the weekly maintenance that I do with this tank as well as my other one? I've heard to divide off tank with rocks/caves so cichlids do not have a straight line of vision clear across the tank? Bull-crap or no?

Any good suggestions with types to start off with? You guys obviously are 'cichlid-a-holics' and I'd rather trust the forums here than the LFS dude in terms of the fish's growth etc.

Lastly, any other fish that you could recommend to compliment the cichlids? I'd like to have a few diff. types in the tank as well.

All suggestions welcome.

BTW-I'm planning on filling the tank up on Sunday and LFS dude told me this morning that I could introduce cichlids in a week if all water levels are good.

Agree or no?

Once again thanks for the information. This forum is awesome for us newbies looking for the 'goods'.

I was going to do a 75 gal salt tank till I saw all this awesome information on the cichlids.

ps. I've also got a 10gal aquarium if needed to hospitalize anything if required.

Fishgal


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2008)

You'll have to cycle the tank with the grocery shrimp first. That takes about 4 weeks. So you can't add fish in a week like the LFS guy said. Don't listen to him when it comes to cycling and such.

Here is an article to read about cycling: http://www.cichlidforum.com/articles/cycling.php.

As far as what to stock with and how many....people have different opinions. With Mbuna, overstocking can help reduce aggression, but you need to have really good filtration for this as Mbuna produce alot of waste.

Be sure to have alot of hiding spots. Mbuna are rock dwellers, so pack alot of rock into the tank for hiding spots, so they'll feel more secure.

Its best to put fish together that are of equal aggression levels, so you don't have a seriously dominant group of fish that wipes out the rest of them.

Some to look into are: Rusy Cichlids, Labidochromis sp. "hongi", Labidochromis sp. "perlmutt", Cobalt Blue Zebra, Red Zebra, M. greshakei, Acei, and Saulosi. Malawi Peac0cksare also compatible with alot of Mbuna, although they are less aggressive than most Mbuna.

Obviously, you can't keep all of those (in groups) in your tank and I wouldn't put 2 together that look similar or are the same genus, but its a good start for you to think about what you want.

Another option, besides the groups, is to do an all male tank. That way its full of color (even with some non-dominant colors) and you have less aggression, since there are no females to fight over. You can have all different species in the tank with different colors. 

As far as numbers go, you could have as many as 16 in the tank IMO. Like I said before, people have different opinions on numbers. I'd probably go with 3 groups of 5 each (3 species) with a m/f ration of 1:4 or go with 14-16 males.

I had a Mbuna tank in the past and took it down because their aggression level was more than I could handle. If I could do it over again, I would setup an all male tank.


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## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks again.

I'm thinking i'll follow the advice presented and do an all-male tank so less issues to deal with besides a bit of agression.

I also took the advice posted previously and went down to the local landscaping depot and the guy there said to fill up the back of the mini-van with as much slate as I wanted. (not a good thing to say to someone already envisioning the next tank after this one is done...hehehe) I have enough to put together 3 pretty decent tanks.

A question in regards to the slate? How much to put in the tank? I'd like to provide lots of hiding spaces so how big should they be? I'm going to use some of the flat rocks as well (also from same dude) and hope to have most of the wall at the back done is some level of slate. Good idea or no?

How much poundage of rock would be recommended for the fish?

Next question. I have egg-crate for the bottom of the tank. I've heard to add the rock directly on the egg-crate and then put substrate all around. True or no?

Thanks for info. on the cycling of the tank. Sometimes its better to NOT listen to the LFS and come straight to the people in the know.

Fishgal_ca


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The sight-line thing is true for the most aggressive mbuna. Melanochromis, for example, will chase any fish they see, esp. other males. The other way to deal with the aggression is to have 12-20 of the same fish so they all chase each other all the time rather than continually bash the females. Having only a few an aggressive Mbuna is a recipe for chewed fish or death. Most of the fish JOM listed are much milder in temperament, but I still wouldn't only have 3. 6 is a good starting number. I would get 3 types in different genera of 6-8 each. Then a few male pea****************s for color in the open areas. Pile in as many rocks as you can afford. Don't bother with pretty colored rocks, they will most likely get covered with algae. To JOMs list I would add yellow Labs & P. Demasoni.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

For an all-male tank, you don't have to have more than one of anything. Put the egg crate down, then the substrate, then the rocks. Though I don't know that your way wouldn't work.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

If you go with american cichlids, your going to want one to four fish. The upside o american cichlids is that they are generally large and impressive, and have great personality. Hell, I have 5 fish in my 100 gallon but I wouldnt do anything else, because my fish are like dogs in the water. They greet me when i walk up, jump out of the tank with excitement over food, will let me pet them, not to mention the fact that some of them are huge and impressive. Africans will show *some* of these qualiies but it is more pronounced on some americans.


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## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

So basically if I want to have ANY aggressive cichlids I should start out with them all that way?

Are all male tanks that less work in terms of aggression?

I don't want to add something a bit more docile next month only to have it eaten a few months down the road.

Thanks

Fishgal


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Yes... If you have any aggressives in the tank, it would be best to mak them all agressive. And you dont have to worry about cichlids eating each other right away. They tend to viciously beat and rip apart the other fish while they are still alive, let them suffer a little, THEN eat them, sometimes while alive. They are vicious fish. I would suggest going with less aggressive cichlids at first. Yellow labs and rustys are great first choices because they tend to be docile. If you really want aggressive fish go for it, but im speaking from experience... my first african setup was mostly yellow labs and red zebras, with one Melanchromis Johanni. Needless to say, the johanni went on a hannibal-esque killing spree and I was depressed.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I had a P. Socolofi end up alone after it killed all its tank mates. If you want a meanie, get a colony of them. 12 M. auratus are better than 1.


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## Moltenice (Mar 18, 2007)

I guess some fish are suppose to be more aggressive by nature, but I have found that it's not always the case. I have a 4" Melanochromis auratus which is the largest fish in the tank, and he is no where near aggressive. In fact he usually gets chased off by my Red Zebra.

The Red Zebra is the most aggressive fish I have, she usually chases everyone around for a second then comes back up to the top (especially during feeding time) to say "I win"....


SO I would just say stick with fish from the same region (IE not mixing Malawi's with South Americans), pick out your fish and look for some with a decent personality, keep a decent amount of them but I wouldnt overstock.
I have a mix of fish, none of the same species and in time I have had them, not one has been killed. They are all happy and healthy.

You might want to look into Biospira, I HIGHLY recommend it and they ship it quickly if you cant find it around you....
http://www.elmersaquarium.com/h125bio_spira.htm



As far as sand goes I have ALOT of sand in my tank. White, very fine, Caribbean sand which I find much more appealing then gravel. It is proven to help control waste and keep nitrates down. It also buffers the water and enhances biological filtration.









I would recommend starting off with a Red Zebra. Mine was/is EXTREMEMLY tolerant... I picked it up over a year ago and learned alot with water management and the zebra made it through some pretty bad spikes with no problem.. 1 year later it's happy as can be as king of the roost in her 55gal, crystal clear world.


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## karazy (Nov 2, 2007)

personaly i like the p.salausi(if thats what its name is) because the male is a nice blue, and then the females make a nice contrast of colors since they are yellow. and you could add some other cichlids with them aswell in a tank that big


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## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks again you guys for all of the information.

I've been reading up on the different types posted.

What if I started off with some green terrors? Pros and cons? How many to start off with etc.

I also like the zebras...They seem to have quite the personality as well.

I'm going to give that tank cycling stuff a try and see how it goes. The tank is getting filled on Sunday so I will add it then.

Another question is how much rock to add? Another poster said as much as I could afford. I went down to the landscape depot and loaded up my mini van with some slate so I could fill it up to the top of the tank if required. Just wondering how much to add etc.

Thanks again


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Well if you do Mbuna from Lake Malawi and no open water fish (peac0cjs), filling the tank all the way up is fine (1/2 to 2/3 is adequate). Most SA cichlids (j. demsey) like some open water. So wait on the rock until you decide on fish.


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## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

So again I took the advice presented here instead of what was told by the LFS dude.

I'm picking up a 50lb bag of silica sand from the local pool place. Its white and I think I might also try and rig up something over the intake hose (nylon maybe) to filter out any that might try and get in the filter.

Called LFS and they wanted 36.00 for 60 lbs of cichlid substrate.

Will that be enough? Why is it that rockwork does not go on top of egg-crate and then the sand? One would think it would be more stable that way. Am not sure I understand that.

Still deciding out the 'type' of cichlid I want so am going to err on the side of caution and do the tank about 50% in rock work with more open areas on one side. Good idea until I can get convinced of a certain type of cichlid.

And finally, speaking of the rockwork, shall I just boil them or should you rinse them really good with vinegar and water and scrub them clean.? They are from a landscaping place local so am not sure.

Once I get tank up and running (hopefully Sunday) I'll post some pics of the tank and see what you guys think of the rockwork. 

Once again thanks !!!!

Fishgal


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If the rocks are solid (no crevasses), you can just rinse them. My mother ran my rocks through the dishwasher, but I don't know if this is a good idea.


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## fishgal_ca (Feb 13, 2008)

Thanks again for all your info posted here to me. Its been a life-saver.

I picked up the bio-spira to cycle to tank and wow, does that stuff ever work.

I washed all the rocks clean and now have my tank loaded up with about 200 lbs of slate and some awesome white sand. It looks pretty good.

And of course, I'm filling it up with a 5 gallon pail expecting the amount of pails to work out to 75 minus a bit for the rock in the water displacement.

One of my friends came over to check out the progress and commented that the tank is actually a 90 gallon and not a 75.

I loaded up the filter canisters and it cleaned the tank right up in a couple of hours. Water is crystal clear now.

Also, my buddy at the LFS who has provided a whole bunch of information and even gave me the bio-spira to cycle the tank on the promise that I'd get my fish from him.

He called me last night and offered 3 cichlids free to cycle the tank and this morning, they are cruising around in the caves and rockwork that I made and eating up a storm. (krill, cichlid pellets and beef-heart.)

The 3 he gave me are as follows:

1. Jaguar cichlid (3 inches long)
1. Yellow Lab cichlid (4-5 inches long)
1. Purply Jack Dempsey (3 inches long)

So far, no issues with them all as they'd been in the same tank at the store and the rock work I did has no clear vision from one side of the tank to the other.

He said that the fish should do ok considering I added the bio spira and the water levels are so far so good.

I know I have to keep an eye on it and will be doing 25% water changes for a few weeks.

I have noticed that all 3 of fish have already found their caves that they are calling their own and are being pretty calm thus far.

Good samples of fish do you think? I was reading abit on the jaguar and he's a bit of a monster it looks like but he's pretty peaceful right now.

Thanks

Fishgal


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You've mixed Africans with Americans. If your tank is a 90, you should be ok for awhile, just watch them. The jaguars are monsters, they are stunning fish that get over a foot long. They are most aggressive when breeding, so if you had a pair I'd be worried. With just one, I think you have some time before it tries to own the whole tank.


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