# Please Help



## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

I had a 55 gallon tank up and running great for about two years. Two months ago I decided to go to more of a planted tank and upgraded my lights and then bought eco complete and took out the old gravel.

After about a week my tank water turn hulk green, turn out my phospate level was off the charts (my tap water tests fine).........after spending two months trying everything possible to lower the phosphate and get rid of the algae (daphnia, water changes, phosphate removers you name it, it didnt work) I decided to start fresh.

I changed out all the eco complete, got one bag of flourite, new gravel washed the hell out of everything today re-set up the tank.

All I have is the new water (less than 3 hours old) and the gravel, i just tested my tank and the friggin phospates are off the chart again (and yes I tested my tap water and it is fine)

What the hell is going on?

Will I be able to avoid an alagae outbreak again since there is no food for the algae or should I anticipate a bloom again?

I am freaking out......I have spent close to $200 trying to get my tank up again and now I am losing faith.....Suggestions?


:chair:


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

You said you wanted a planted tank, right? So, then.. plant it. Plant the heck out of it. Stuff it slam-full of plants like you're supposed to, and the algae won't have a chance. You might try using bottled water instead of tapwater, too, even though tapwater is usually just fine. Apparently something in your tapwater is reacting with something else, liberating phosphate aplenty. It could also be your substrate, of course.
You can also try any of those phosphate removing products on the market.

I'm going to guess that you already DID heavily plant your tank and still got algae. If that's the case, then my first guess is that the lights you just upgraded are TOO bright, causing your plants to need a lot more Carbon Dioxide that they would have needed under the old lights. Without it, the algae will have the advantage instead of the plants.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

johnmoss said:


> or should I anticipate a bloom again?


Yes.




johnmoss said:


> I am freaking out......I have spent close to $200 trying to get my tank up again and now I am losing faith.....Suggestions?


jm:

Please do not lose faith. You have "hauled off and done something stupid here (exactly what it is I do not know)" but please do not consider yourself to be the only cherry around here.

I did it once with overfeeding. All the surfaces in the tank were covered with algae including the plants but fortunately I could not fully enjoy it as I could only view a couple of inches into the tank due to the green water.

I am currently into another episode of my "hauling off and doing something stupid" with the purchase of a HQI-MH fixture which I added to my two PC fixtures. I am slowly but surely overcoming this "slobber up" by experimenting with lighting durations of the MH, implementing DIY CO2 injection in order to achieve 5ppm and experimenting with fertilizer concentrations in the tank.

The phosphate concentration is about "to eat your lunch" but please hang in there as I have done (in my "brilliant thinking" when starting with dry ferts if 1X phosphate is good then 2X should be a lot better).

I concur with TOS and posting the particulars of you tank and lighting might help us here.

TR


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks for the response.

The tank is a 55 gallon 48 * 18 *12

For lighting I have 2 x 55 watt 10000K lighting from AH Supply. I am only using them 6 hours now that I have changed up my subtrate.

I have two filters working:

1) Rena XP3 - Has the prefilters in first, Biofilter media in second and just put Seacham phospate remover in the 3rd along with carbon/nitrate remover.
2) Hang on bag Whisper 60 with carbon filters

two air bubble makers.

Right now it is very lightly planted, when the tank went green as hell most of my plants died. When I went to me local fish store they advised against buying lots of plants and suggested the Seacham. 

Their advice was to wait it out a couple of weeks to see if the phospates go down.

I am open to suggestions? Any other tips?

By the way my PH is way low....I am afraid to up the PH since that product is very heavy on phospates.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

johnmoss said:


> For lighting I have 2 x 55 watt 10000K lighting from AH Supply. I am only using them 6 hours now that I have changed up my subtrate.
> 
> Right now it is very lightly planted, when the tank went green as hell most of my plants died. When I went to me local fish store they advised against buying lots of plants and suggested the Seacham.
> 
> ...


jm:

TOS was pretty well smooth on with his post but before I address several items in the quote above this is the scenario as I understand it:

[1] You were aware that you needed at least 2WPG to enjoy plants, ordered a retrofit kit and installed it.

[2] You then went to your LFS, told them that you wanted to grow plants, they sold you the EcoComplete and told you don't worry be happy but did not address other issues.

[3] Then delicious green soup appeared in your tank and your plants began dying

[4] The LFS then sold you the Seachem, told you to put it in your filtration process, wait a few weeks and don't worry be happy.
Did I get some of this scenario half way correct?

In a portion of the following I am not trying to "put words into TOS' mouth" but to only elucidate and the following is unfortunately fairly fragmented in its' presentation.

At 2WPG with appropriate feeding no way should you be having green water.

As you have appropriately noted the green water and fixed algae is probably being generated in part by excess phosphates (are you sure that you are not putting too much food in your tank?).

(BTW: your plants are probably not dead and will recover if we can "figure this out")

The phosphates are "somehow" leaching from the EcoComplete and the Seachem is at best only a stopgap.

Plants are more efficient consumers of nutrients than is algae but when excess nutrients are present algae is generated.

CO2 is a nutrient but is also a catalyst (this is not exactly true but is close enough for exemplification).

Consider a small log fire which is mildly burning but you commence blowing on it, the fire blazes and the wood is soon consumed due to the oxygen which you are exposing the fire to.

Plants' consumption of nutrients in the presence of CO2 is analogous (sorta).

Please consider fabricating a DIY CO2 reactor with a 2 liter pop bottle (if I can do this anyone can) as in your tank this reactor should produce a minimum concentration of 5ppm of CO2 or, as an alternate, go back to your LFS and purchase Seachem Flourish Excel and commence dosing at twice the recommended rate.

While there also please purchase Seachem Flourish and commencing dosing at twice the recommended rate (this should make your LFS happy as you are purchasing from them).

The Excel is sorta a CO2 injection substitute and the Flourish is substantially micronutrients (why substantial excess micronutrients help I have "not figured out" but they do in the dry fert world also with CSM+B).

I have no familiarity with EcoComplete but have reviewed the literature.

If you still have the aggregate which you removed from tank and it is like 3/8" aggregate please consider placing one inch of this aggregate over the EcoComplete (I really do not know why I am saying this but this is what I would try if I were in your situation).

Please take the Seachem Phosguard out of your filtration process. IMHO it is less than useless and will cause serious outliers in your ecosystem transition to normality and your observations thereof.

Please purchase some micron mechanical filtration media for your filters and place them in service (believe it or not these will really help here but you will need to rinse them frequently in WC tank water).

TR


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Jones, 

Mostly right.....

I changed ALL the subrate out. IE.. no more eco-complete OR the gravel on top. I replaced all of it with (1 bag of Flourite) and some new gravel.

As part of this change I also removed all the old green water, cleaned my filter(s) etc..

Since I lost most of my fish and plants (transfered some to a smaller tank) I made the decisions to start from scratch and cycle out a new set-up.

When I added my new water I added (in appropriate amounts) salt, aquasafe, and PH 7.0

Once I had all the water in, I tested my phospates and PH. The readins showed the phospates were off the chart and the PH was very low. 

I spent time online trying to find out what the heck could adjust my phospates that high so fast. The only item I can come up with is the PH Neutral which has phospates in it. I change out half my water (remember no fish, just a couple of sad looking Amazon Sword Plants) and the Phospates were still way high.

I am more than willing to be patient on the cycle (fully expect to have no fish till after xmas) What I DONT want is another green tank for a month or two, plus I would prefer to not throw money away.

If adding a ton of plants right now will help than I am in with the plants and the flourish.

Should I stock the tank with pants or not? Please give me a hell yes (or no)

Thanks


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Hmmm....

I would first address the pH problem. After that, then I would add the plants. Don't add the plants first if you are planning any big pH changes.
That should probably do it. Once things are stable and then stuffed with plants, you will likely still see a small bit of algae attempting to grow for a short time, but then it should fade away for good.


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

After some considerable angst (as outlined above), I decided to plant the tank and hope for the best.

I will be putting in:

java fern
jungle val
wisteria
Amazon sword

I am not messing with the ph or the phospates right now. Plan is to add the plants and let everything cycle for a couple of weeks in the hopes that everything will stabilize.

Will have my lights on for 6 hours a day, 3 in the morning (tank gets direct light for about an hour or two in the am, then indirect light rest of the day) and 3 at night.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

jm:

You have really been down the road here but as I said earlier do not think that you are the only cherry on the trail (friends visiting the house refer to one of my few means of enjoyment as my aquarium but I refer to it as my money pit)




johnmoss said:


> I changed ALL the subrate out. IE.. no more eco-complete OR the gravel on top. I replaced all of it with (1 bag of Flourite) and some new gravel.


Please excuse me: I just flat missed the Flourite part but you are now in a world where I have some experience.

An architecture that will work (although not published in sufficient frequency for the Internet Parrots to pick it up) is approximately one inch of aggregate under and over approximately 2" of Florite. The size of the aggregate should be 3/8" to 1/2".




johnmoss said:


> When I added my new water I added (in appropriate amounts) salt, aquasafe, and PH 7.0


Most folks use Seachem prime but why are you adding salt and PH 7.0*?




johnmoss said:


> Once I had all the water in, I tested my phospates and PH. The readins showed the phospates were off the chart and the PH was very low*.


Unless you washed the Flourite like 5 times the phosphates are probably coming from the residue (and not leaching as I originally thought).

*IMHO chunk the PH 7.0, go get a nice decorative limestone rock with holes & caves and place it in a flow path in the tank (you can attach Anubias to it later should you so desire).




johnmoss said:


> Should I stock the tank with pants or not? Please give me a hell yes (or no)


H... no! based on your post. Not until we get the basics down!

TR

BTW: I have Ph Up and Ph Down in my garage but I Googled for PH 7.0 and PH Neutral with no joy. Do you have a link to the product which you have been using?


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

The product is called neutral regulator by seachem. it says on the side that it contains "phosphate buffers" which I obviously didnt notice until after I put it in.

Checked the PH today it is right at 6.0, the phosphates are still off the charts.......

If my PH is ok (well within reason) wont the plants help use up some of the phosphates?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

johnmoss said:


> The product is called neutral regulator by seachem. it says on the side that it contains "phosphate buffers" which I obviously didnt notice until after I put it in.
> 
> Checked the PH today it is right at 6.0, the phosphates are still off the charts.......
> 
> If my PH is ok (well within reason) wont the plants help use up some of the phosphates?


Absolutely but based on your last post it will be like putting a bandage on an open humongous leg wound.

We need to get the basics down first.

TR


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Ok then, what are the basics? 

What do I need to do to loose the phospates?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Stop using the "regulators" from seachem and switch to the "buffers". They are only one buffer so you have to be careful not to overdose. Alkaline buffer or Malawi Buffer will up your pH with carbonate buffers rather than phosphate buffers. Or add cichlid "salts", the increase in hardness will help keep the pH from dropping.

yes, plants will eat up phospates. Its just a matter of getting the plants to grow faster than the algae.


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

I want to stay away from anything that is going to harden the water. If I can ever get the phosphates (and algae) in line this is going to be a discus tank.

So should I do another massive water change, check PH and use the buffers you mentioned?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

johnmoss said:


> Ok then, what are the basics?
> 
> What do I need to do to loose the phospates?


What I posted in post #9 as well as what em said.

IMHO you can either suffer the work required in order to set your tank up correctly now and to eventually experiment with dry ferts or you can just keep chunking $ and keep enjoying your nice green soup.

TR


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Are you suggesting I empty the tank and clean up the flourite? 

As for 9 and 13 I am on board with the limestone and the buffers EM outlined, my confusion lies in what to do other than that?

Are you advising me to do a massive water change, re fill the tank and adjust based on reading with the buffers you and EM suggested?j Or should I just use the buffers as advised, do daily water changes and wait it out?

Keep in mind there is no algae bloom in the tank right now, just very high phosphate readings.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

1 - Stop adding salt (discus hate salt)
2 - Stop adding buffers (the up & down swings will be permanent if you don't)
3 - Stop testing
4 - Fill the tank with fast growing plants (let them take up the phosphates)
5 - Wait till the plants establish
6 - Test again 


http://www.petstore.com/ps_ViewItem...-view-idProduct-AP2111-idCategory-AQFMCH.html


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Bingo. The plants you picked are kinda slow growers and not going to do much in a hurry, so you'll have that extra little complication. Time is the cure.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If its a discus tank a pH of 6 isn't "low" or "something to worry about". Skip all buffers, just use Prime.


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Excellant! This advice falls very much into what I was planning on doing.

So....one last question..

I planted

2 large java fern
8 - large jungle val
6- wisteria
2 -Amazon sword

What other "fast growing" plants should I put in? I have 2 wpg......
should I add fert and if yes any recomendations?

Last........thanks.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

Vals, java fern, and Amazon swords are slow-growers, comparatively. Get some rotala indica in there, some anacharis, maybe some hornwort.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

Hornwort, anacharis are good yes.
Stay away from red leaved plants.
& no, don't add ferts yet, let them use up whats in there now. And get more established.
Swords also need ferts from the roots, if they start looking peaked, shove a fert tab down into the roots.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

P.S. wysteria is a good fast grower too


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks!

Will be planting a BUNCH more plants this weekend!

Will update this thread once (I hope) the tank has settled and cycled and I have some happy Discus swimming around.


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