# I need some help



## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Hi all

I am new to the tropical fish game but very enthustaic.

I have a 120l tank.

I have 3 gourami 1 angel fish 1 black ghost 2 mollies 2 glass fish 2 swordtails

I have had the tank a little over a week.

It was set it up a little over a week ago. No fish were put in for about 4 days. I used Hagen cycle water treatment and nutrafin aqua plus to ensure the water was suitable for the fish before any were put in.

I had checked the Ph on the tank and all was good. better infact.

So i bought a few fish:

4 gourami
2 mollies
1 angel fish
1 siamese fighter

on Saturday just gone i bought a few more fish and some live plants

when i put the plants in i found a dead gourami behind an ornament in the water. I removed him.

I placed the rest of the new fish on top of the water for 20 mins so they could get used to it.

They were then let out.

I bought 3 glass fish, 2 swordtails, 1 black ghost fish. 

I woke yesterday to find my fighter was alive but kept drifting to his side and was at the bottom of the tank. I have just got in from work now and 1 of my glass fish have died too.

Any help as to the reason for this would be most welcome.

Thanks


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## judya (Jan 23, 2005)

Why, specifically, your fish died, I can't say. However, I can tell you some tips that might help.
1) besides acclimating the fish by temperature (floating the bag in the water), there are also differences in water conditions from the store tank to your tank. Fish need a gradual acclimation. I open the bag and clip it to the side of the tank, in the water but with the top above the water level. I then add a small amount of tank water to the bag. I repeat this over 12 to 24 hours, adding some tank water every few hours. I then release the fish into the tank. Some people net the fish out of the bag, so as not to put contaminated store water into their tank. 
2) Make sure the fish purchased are healthy to start with. When you look in the store tank that you are buying fish from, Are there any dead fish in the tank - not a good sign. Are there any fish with salt-like white grains on their fins or sides -this is Ich, and not a good sign - Even if the fish you buy doesn't have the spots, it has been exposed to it. Do the fish have upright fins, shiny healthy scales, are they swimming busily, or do they have clamped down fins, poor condition, hovering in the corner.
3) See notes on cycling a tank, etc posted as stickies at the top of each column. There is one specifically for what to do if fish are dying in a new tank.
4) There may be a poison that has gotten into your tank - Any soap or cleaning products used on the tank? Do you have a clean NEW bucket for the tank water. Are any decorations not safe for fish use.
5) are any of your fish picking on each other in the tank? Gouramies, bettas, and other fish can be aggressive to each other.

Hope some of this helps. I recommend stocking fish very lightly in a tank, and only adding more over a period of weeks or months.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

irrab said:


> I used Hagen cycle water treatment and nutrafin aqua plus to ensure the water was suitable for the fish before any were put in.


I have no idea what either of these products are, but I am guessing they are intended to provide either ammonia or bacteria to jump-start a cycle. Clearly this did not work or not well enough.

I would diagnose the problem as too many fish added too soon to a new tank. I would suggest adding stock much more slowly in the future.


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Welcome to the forum and the hobby.

As is very common with new fish keepers, you made some innocent mistakes that have cost you some fish and my well cost you some more if we don't act quickly.
Let's start at the beginning...

Your tank is going through what is called the NITROGEN CYCLE (please refer to this thread....http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/7125-nitrogen-cycle-basics.html).
This will take anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of months to complete depending on whether or not you use anything to jump start the cycle..ie Biospira, Stability or old tank filter media). During this time the fish are vulnerable to ammonia and nitrite spikes in the water. This can kill them very quickly if not controlled. The best way to keep the spikes down and help protect the fish is by doing partial water changes. Take out about 20% of the tank water and replace it with fresh, dechlorinated water about every 2-3 days or whenever the ammonia and nitrites get above 1.0. NOTE: You will need an aquarium test kit to keep track of these numbers. There are several available but the most reliable are the liquid tests. Dip strips are cheaper but don't give accurate readings.
As the cycle progresses you will see the ammonia drop off and the nitrites rise, then the nitrites will drop off and the nitrates will rise. The goal here is to do partial water changes once or twice a week to keep the nitrates under 30ppm. A fully cycled tank will read: Ammonia 0 ppm, NitrIte 0 ppm, NitrAte 10-30 ppm, PH 6.5 - 7.5 ppm (there are variables here but for the fish you have, this is the appropriate range.)

Second mistake: Adding too many fish too quickly. The fish are going to produce waste which will cause the ammonia to rise. This is good in as far as feeding the bacteria and getting it to grow. But if you put in too many fish too soon you will over whelm your bacterial cultures. They just can't reproduce fast enough to keep up with the load. The best course here is to start with only 2 or 3 hardy fish and wait until the cycle is finished, then add only a couple of new fish at a time every 2 weeks or so in order to let the bacteria catch up with the bio load.

Third mistake: You didn't research your fish before you bought them. Some of those fish will get to big for a 120L (app. 30 gal) tank. All of them together will certainly be too much for a beginning tank just getting established. Depending on the species of gourami, some of them get quite large and three of them may be too much for a new bio load to handle. The ghost knife will most certainly outgrow a tank that size (I know, the pet store said it would be ok and it's small right now, but trust me on this). The "glass fish" I'm not quite clear on. Are they "glass catfish" or "painted glass tetras"? Believe it or not, that will make a difference. The mollies and swordtails will be fine once the cycle is complete and the angel should be ok as well.

Now, one thing you can do to help fix this is to take some of the fish back to the petstore and try to get credit for them. Keep a few (say the mollies and swordtails) to help cycle the tank and keep up the water changes until it's all over then SLOWLY begin adding other fish back to the tank a couple at a time. You may also want to concider returning all of the fish and doing a "fishless" cycle. This is explained in the link I posted previously.

Please be sure to research the fish before you buy them to make sure of their minimum tank size requirment, water chemistry requirments, full adult size and tank mate compatibility. There is nothing more frustrating then finding a really cool fish at a good bargin, buying it and then finding out later that you don't have the right setup to properly house it or that it will kill everything else in your tank!

Sorry this post is so long but I really wanted to help get you on the right track. I hope you don't think I'm being mean or anything but I (as well as 90% of the rest of the members of this board) had to learn the hard way and I just want to make your introduction into this fun and rewarding hobby as stress free as possible. Please feel free to post any more questions you have and someone here will be more then happy to help you.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Hey all. thank you so much for all your help.

Yeah i think i may have gotten a little carried away on set up and agin i will learn the hard way. 

Buddy I really appreciate your post and the more advice that is given the better......really.

Thanks all I will see how the next few days go and let you know.

Fingers crossed it will be ok now.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

A few things I want to add...you have a pretty incompatible mix of fish for that tank.

3 gouramis=not a good idea, they are probably mostly males (females are kinda hard to find sometimes) and will definitely fight. If they aren't now, they probably will when they're older. Also, bettas (your siamese fighter) are not compatible with gouramis. Gouramis and Bettas are both Anabantids, and they will fight.

Black ghost knife fish are not suitable for a 30-gallon tank. They get very large. I would recommend a 75 gallon as a tight minimum for just one. I'd recommend returning it.

The angelfish may or may not get along. They should be okay for now, though when they get older they might fight a bit. Even so, with 4 gouramis, 2 angels might be pretty crowded in there.

Livebearers (mollies and swordtails) should be in at least 2f/1m trios. If you only have one male/one female, the male will very possibly harass her to death. Check on the sex ratio/distribution of them, the gonopodium on the males (anal fin) will be much more extended than the female's anal fin. Modify your stocking accordingly for the health and well-being of the fish.

The glass fish will probably be okay, though they prefer groups of at least 6. 

I'd choose between the gouramis or the angels. Then I'd get ONE group of livebearers (3-4 mollies OR 3-4 swordtails) Beef up the glass fish school, and you'll still have room to add some corydoras for the bottom  Panda or peppered cories would do well, just remember to get at least 6. 

Don't add any more fish until your tank cycles though. I recommend a liquid test kit (or strips, but liquid=more effective) to check on the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. Those readings will keep you updated on the cycle of your tank.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I agree that a knife is not a great choice for a 30g tank. As for gouramis, I have kept groups of gouramis before, even sometimes with angelfish. From my experience, I think that keeping one or the other is probably best. But you certainly can keep several gouramis.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey thanks.

my gouramis are actually quite good although it may have been them that finished off my fighting fish so will learn tht lesson and not replace any fish for a while. Like I said i have lost 4 fish in a week but all seems ok at the moment.

I was wonder tho. I will be performing my fisrt cycle this week end and wondered if there are any tips i can get.

I have 8 fish and 3 live plants in the tank at the moment. 

How much (% wise) should i replace in the first cycle. should I buy any special equipment for the change? 

Also, should i get any pleckys (suckers) for my tank. I have none at the moment and the gravel is looking a bit dirty. 

I do have the all in 1 ph/nitrite/ammonia/nitrate sticks and will get liquid test kit this weekend also. All is good on the sticks at the moment have checkd just incase this was the reason for my fishes popping their clogs.

Thanks again for any comments.


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## silverfly (Jan 11, 2009)

irrab said:


> hey thanks.
> 
> my gouramis are actually quite good although it may have been them that finished off my fighting fish so will learn tht lesson and not replace any fish for a while. Like I said i have lost 4 fish in a week but all seems ok at the moment.
> 
> ...


Hi Irrab,
I think it's probably a good idea to stop adding anything right now. Your fish may still continue to die, but don't restock them with new fish. Just keep doing water changes (I'd say 10-20%, but you should research) and let your tank cycle out of nitrogen phase. 

Have you also considered a heater? I had a few fish die on me and I think the tank was too cold. Now I have a heater set to 78 F and they're doing much better. 

So, just be gradual with your tank changes now. Just be patient at this point and let your tank become a good environment before introducing anything new.:fish:


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey silverfly.

Yeah i also have a heater set to 32C and this keeps the tankat 25C (sorry dont know F lol).

So i nkow the water is ok and like i said the levels are all good but will def so a liquid test asap.

I am really enjoying the hobby and learning so much and i do not want this incident to put me off.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Ok I just had a thought. When i do my WC the tap water will be a lot colder than the water in the tank. surely this change cannot be good for this fish? 

WHat would be the best way around this? 

Also if i use a bucket as opposed to a pump do i add the dechlorine/chlormine before i put the fresh water back in or after?

thanks again


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Run the tap water until it is the same temp as your tank. Dose the tank with enough dechlor for the whole tank, then add the water in.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

should i mix in hot water as well then to balance out the temp?


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

You will need to run both hot and cold. Fiddle with it until the water coming out of the faucet is the same as your tank. I would recommend using a precision cooking thermometer to do this.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

ok awesome. thanks for the help. 

So would the 10-20% WC be ok for a weekly change or should i up it a bit?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

25% is good.

No, don't get any pleckys. They do NOT clean your tank, and in fact only make it messier.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey Salt thanks for the reply. really appreciate it. 

No pleckys it is then. How about clown loach? Im not thinking of getting them for atleast 4 weeks. looking to get my tank settled and into a routine of cycling and treating the water etc.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

No clown loaches, they are too big for your tank and need a group to be happy.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

You don't really need a thermometer to check water temp. Close is good enough as long as it is within reasonable limits, which most people with a hand can figure out.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

ok so i have done my first WC. only just finished it and i did approx 30% as not done it before and had tank nearly 2 weeks now. all went ok. i putthe water treatment in first then added the clean water. tank looks so much brighter already and i hope my fish will be ok. temp was also ok so thanks to all for their suggestions. 

will let you know tomorrow if any more developments.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey one other question. i was looking for some bottom feeders to clean the majority of my gravel. Can anyone suggest any good bottom feeders that will be ok in my tank?


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Sorry another really stupid question. How often should I feed my fish. i have been doing it once a day is that ok for a new tank or should it be more to get the bacteria up?


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

You need to understand that bottom feeders do not eat fish poo or waste-- they eat fish food. You have to either sink some flake food for them or buy bottom feeder foods that sink.
A good way to clean the bottom of your tank is to get a special "vaccuum". If you are thinking of bottom feeders like corydoras wait until the tank is a bit older- Cories are very sensitive and do best with a well established tank.
Feeding once a day is good. The fish waste will get the bacteria up-- no need to have it ocvcur quickly by artificial means or you will create an ammonia spike and be worse off again.
Do not add any more fish until the 6 week cycle ends!!And your ammonia and nitrite readings are at 0.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Hey mousey.

Thanks for tht. Yeah I know bottom feeders dont eat poo lol. im not tht much of a noob lol. thank you tho. I bough a syphon vac today along with a liquid test kit so will get it all sorted tonight and come back with the result of liquid test. I have also done another partial WC. fish are doing well and just gonna let the eco system evolve for a few more weeks now. week 2 is now over. lol


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Now when you are doing your first vaccuuming do not disturb the gravel too much as your tank is still cycling I presume. You can destroy good bacteria by being too clean.Just suck up any surface poo and uneaten food/debris. You can clean more in a few more weeks.
Let us know what your ammonia and nitrite levels are.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey ok so I did my liquid water tests and here ae the results:
Ph - 7.0
Ammonia - 0.01

I did not do my Nitrite and Nitrate as i had done a WC and thought that this may casue advers results.

I did a stick test today and all is good except my Nitrite and Nitrate. I used Nutrafin Aqua plus which is a water conditioner before putting the water in like usual so thought it was all good.

So i did the liquid NO2 & NO3 and here are the results:

NO2 - 3.3 (highest on my chart)
NO3 - 50 (2nd highest on chart)

It was recommened in the booklet that should i get a high result to do a 20% water change. I have now done that and wondered if there is any thing else i can do to try and help the NO2 & NO3 lower.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Are you sure the ammonia is only 0.01?
None of my tests are that sensitive!
Anyway that is a moot point since you are farther along in the cycling process to be seeing any great ammonia level. The nitrite level looks to be going down since you are now showing nitrates.
They are fairly high but in the context of the cycling process can be controlled with 25% water changes.
There is an issue about water changes that gets a bit confusing. Once I did a 90% change because my nitrate levels were so high. After the change and by the next morning they were even higher despite the fact that I have live plants in the tank. I was at that time doing water changes as part of an ich treatment.
Because the water supply contains ammonia which is converted eventually to nitrate my large water changes were in fact adding extra nitrates to the water- and some water supply already contains nitrates!You can contact your water supply company for that or perhaps they have a web site that gives you water quality issues-- the area I live in has these results and what the acceptable standards are for my area.
I believe you can purchase nitrate remover devices at the pet stores.If the fish are stressed you can always throw in a bit of aquarium salt for a short period of time. It eases the fishes breathing somewhat.
If your water ph is only 7 you are lucky. Ammonia is less toxic with lower pH but nitrites are more toxic! 
my water is 8.2 out of the tap- one of the reasons I keep live plants and mopani wood in my tanks.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Hey mousey

My Nitrite and Nitrate levels are still high. done another stick test today and same as yesterday. What should I do. Do i do daily WC's? or every other day. I only have 3 plants in my tank but want to ensure my fish are safe and healthy.

Thanks


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## judya (Jan 23, 2005)

Mostly just give it time. Do the water changes recommended above, (The 20-30% a week)and when you do, only do a very light gravel cleaning, and let everything just run for several weeks. More plants would not hurt either. 
Feed once a day - the gauge is to picture the fish's stomach as about as big as its eye. and feed a little portion. If you're getting a lot of junk on the gravel, that may be uneaten food that has dropped down and is spoiling (Which also contributes to bad tank conditions.) Feeding fish and watching them gobble it up is fun, but they need less they you think.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey thanks for that.

My only concern now is that I have just got up to go to work and several of my fish are just at the bottom of the tank still alive but not moving as much as they normally do.

I have a very bad feeling.

Any thing I can do?


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Did you just turn the lights on? Sometimes fish are lethargic when you first turn on the lights for a while. I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

hey yes i had only just turned on the light. lol. After returning from work they all seem fine lol.

Is it recommended that i do more than 1 WC a week?


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

A few times a week (3)is ok while you still have high nitrites. I do not see them as all that high- I have had higher!
however it is good if they don't rise anymore.
Once the nitrite goes to zero then you will be doing weekly water changes to keep the nitrates at around 40 or less. Some nitrates are desirable if you have live plants.
As I said, a wee bit of salt in the water helps the fish and a good product like Seachem PRIME that renders the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate into a non toxic form are very valuable when cycling.


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## irrab (Feb 22, 2009)

Salt yeah? ok i will try and get some this week end. I have done another WC tonight so will do another on thurs.


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