# water change methods



## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

I'm hoping that by the end of the month, I can have my big divided tank set up (it's either 70 or 75 gallons...can't remember which). It's gonna be a guppy breeder tank, so no gravel or anything at the bottom - except for one of the divisions, so I can have a place for all the bacteria ...I'd just make sure to get "junk" on the bottom out, with the vacuum as I do the change.

If I changed a gallon of water each day, would that have the same (or even better?) effect, as doing a full 10% once for the week?


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## osteoporoosi (Jan 27, 2005)

yes, small wc:s once a day are better than one big change weekly. But imo 50% totally per week would be good especially if you are going to breed and raise fry in the tanks,


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## Thunderkiss (Mar 19, 2005)

if you have the eneergy and wherewithall to do one every day i'd prolly up the % to 15% or 20%. It'll have a really nice effect on the fry.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Hrm... the only materials I have at the moment, would allow for a 10% daily. When I go to buy the stand, I'll get more buckets.

Which reminds me. Somewhere I read that aging water doesn't really work, because the chemicals don't actually evaporate, but rather sink to the bottom of the container. So then when you pour it in, all that ammonia and chloramines still get dumped in. But I only heard that from one source...
I still use conditioners (AmQuel and Novaqua) after letting my water sit for at least 24 hours anyway. At the very least, letting it sit will get the water the right temperature (about 68-70)


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

Instead of buckets get a python. It will make your life much eaiser.


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

fish_doc @ Sun Apr 10 said:


> Instead of buckets get a python. It will make your life much eaiser.


I second that one


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

I take my water out bucket by bucket, but have a fresh clean garden hose to fill it back up.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Yep, a Python is the way to go. If you only change 10% a day in a 75 gallon tank, you don't have to worry about chlorine.

10% a week is so grossy ineffective it's not even worth the bother, but 10% a day works well. A Python no spill 'n fill will make doing this chore a lot easier, and the faster growth rate of your guppies will be worth it.

( I'm assuming that your tapwater has the correct chemistry parameters for guppies. If not then you have a lot of extra work ahead of you. )

As for establshing a gravel bed in one ofthe "divisions"...what do you mean by a division? 
Gravel and guppies don't mix, by the way; if you want superior guppies, you should use sponge filters instead. the water changes will keep things cleaner without as much need for biofiltration.

The chemicals just sink to the bottom of the bucket?
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

If your city does no use chloramine, but instead just free chlorine, then you can just put a strong airstone in the bucket for 24 hours or so to make the water perfctly serviceable without the use of dechlorinators. Dechlorinators raise the sulfide hardness of the water something awful, and they taste horrible. Consider that fish have a sense of taste thousands of times more sensitive than that of humans, and it's plain to see that using dechlorinator is simple cruelty to animals.

Go ahead; try a drop on your tounge. Have a puke bucket handy.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

i HAVE SEVERAL COMMENTS HERE.
1.Vivid dawn, you don't need gravel for your bacteria. True a little will be in your gravel, but most will be in your filter media.
2. The amount of water you need to change will depend of the number and size of your fish. Try to keep nitrates down to about 20 or so.
3. One large water change is better than several small ones. One 10 gal change removes more toxins than ten 1 gal. changes.
4. Chlorine will evaporate from standing water without treatment.( an airstone will speed this up). Chloramines will not.
5. Watch the "fresh clean" garden hose. Better to use one that is made for "potable" water. I have one that was made to use on rec. vehicles. Have you ever taken a drink from the end of a regular garden hose? YUck.


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## Thunderkiss (Mar 19, 2005)

fish_doc @ Sun Apr 10 said:


> Instead of buckets get a python. It will make your life much eaiser.


And i'll 3rd it. Pythons are worth 10X thier weight in gold. 20X, no 100X .... well you get the picture 



> Consider that fish have a sense of taste thousands of times more sensitive than that of humans, and it's plain to see that using dechlorinator is simple cruelty to animals.


Elaborate.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

What's to elaborate?

If dechlorinator will make a human puke his/her guts out from the taste, how much worse would that taste be for a creature which can taste things thousands of times, sometimes millions of times, more sharply than a human can? We humans can avoid tasting things by simply not putting those things into our mouths. Fish don't have that option; they taste everything in their water.

if you were to set up two tanks identical in every way except one, and that one was that one tank used dechlorinator and one didn't, you would be able to see a measurable difference in the behavior, health and growth between the fish in those tanks. Seriously, it's been done numerous times.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

The tank is divided into four parts. I got it from Petsmart when they were remodeling.. it's the one they kept feeder guppies in (dunno why they needed four different sections for that, though... I never saw them use more than two at a time). It's about 8 feet long, and the divider panels are 'welded' - with silicon, I'm sure - to the tank, so I doubt I could take them out properly even if I was careful about it. But it works for guppies... got a place for my males, females and babies. I plan on setting up more tanks, later when I have money (and after I figure out where to plug all the equipment in!)

I dunno what's in my tap water, but I'll tell ya... I refuse to drink it, it's so nasty!! Sometimes it tastes mildly like swimming pool water, so I _know_ there's chlorine in it. And I think the city just passed the 'law' about flouride, too. I always let it sit 24 hours, and then put AmQuel and Novaqua in it, and let that sit for about an hour before I change water.
I use milk jugs, and a gravel-vac to do water changes. I just figured it'd be easier to do 1 gallon a day, rather than 7 gallons once a week. Easier, but if it's not better, I can change my plan!

The guppy parts won't have gravel (and I'm gonna paint the bottom (outside!) black...but the back-board is medium blue), I just wanted that for the bacteria. I'm gonna use a Whisper submersible filter, so it'll have the sponge/foam stuff. 

I was thinking of starting with pure RO/distilled water, and let it cycle with that, and then just add tap water that I treat, and that'll be good? I may just always use bottled water all the time, since it's cheap from WalMart *g*


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## Thunderkiss (Mar 19, 2005)

I would have to assumke that that would be the case only if the fish were sensitive to said chemicals. They are VERY sensitive to some chemicals, and not so to others.

I asked merely because that statement was akin to saying that anyone who has city water is abusing thier fish.

And i was just making sure that that was what you wanted to say.


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## sumpthinfishy (Jan 21, 2005)

What do us poor slobs on city water do to avoid using dechlorinators? I don't have enough space or buckets to keep the water around for a few days while the chlorine evaporates. Also, I have a very curious 3 year old who would be playing in them!  

And then there's chloramine. Is there any other alternative?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

OldSalt, what you say is interesting. I've never thought about the taste of the dechlor we use. I don't always use it when I change water and maybe I should rethink the way I have always done things. BTW, for everyones information, you don't necessarily have to wait for chlorine to evaporate. If you change only a small amouint of water ( say 10-25% ), just splash a lot when you add it to the tank and most chlorine will evaporate. ( Not chloromine tho. ).
Salt, I did the taste test. I have Novaqua and AquaScience Ultimate on hand. I tryed both and didn't notice much taste at all. I didn't taste a lot, cause I didn't have my "puke" bucket handy. Have you actually done the side by side with two tanks? ( one with dechlor and one without ). I'm always willing to hear new theories and I try to be open minded, but I remain skeptical about this. :shock:


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## UgLy_eLf (Feb 26, 2005)

I've had water that was treated with chlorine remover....tasted the same as usual....


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

:?


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## 1KoidialDude (Feb 14, 2005)

Another aspect to think about when using well water is the co2 that need's to be released as long as the water is bubbling from the hose and not under water as it's filling the tank you should be ok for a food grade hose I don't know I think that may be a little overboard unless you allready have one laying around.
as for letting water sit over a period of time I picked up a plastic 50 gallon drum that I leave full with an airstone and some Gambusia "Minnow's" for those always happening but unexpected emergency's cramped for space i guess i would look for a 30 gallon barrel, why you could even put a cloth over it with a lamp and no would know :twisted:


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Sorry, Coidial, I couldn't follow that last post.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I understood it. What he said is that it is good to let the tapwater de-gas before putting it into the tank. I do this myself when I use tapwater from a hose. ( NOTE: I usually only use a hose when making a HUGE water change or when filling a pool, and gas balancing is very handy under these conditions ) I simply use a standard spray nozzle set to "heavy mist." If you try it, you'll notice a strong chlorine smell wafting up from the mist. This also degasses the water, returning it to a normal saturation balance. In your pipes, a number of odd things can happen to your water under pressure. You may have noticed how your water will change after sitting out for a day or so. The reason is that over a short time the water will degass and return to what it normally supposed to be. 
Using the spray method I use, the water can be nearly instantly degassed and the chlorine level significantly reduced.

ron v, are you telling me that you tasted sodium thiosulfate and didn't puke your guts out? What kind of weird mutant are you, anyway? One drop should have floored you.
Waitaminute... it occurs to me that those dechlorinators use new formulations instead of good old sodium thiosulfate. Hmmm... well, that IS good news. If that's the case, then hey, just use those and avoid the standard stuff.

Yes, I have done the side by side test, as well as quite a number of other side-by-sides. I got the idea when a major company also made such a study trying to prove that their products had no ill effects, but instead discovered that they did. I had already quit using the stuff by that time on account of the taste, but that got my curiosity up, and I also wanted to show others ( customers ) that they didn't need dechlorinator, so I ran the experiment for about 5 months. The results were hard to ignore; the tank which got dechlorinator at every water change had fish which grew slowly compared to the fish which were not exposed. The dechlorinated fish also didn't look as good or act the same. The differences were slight, but noticable. I should point out that this test proved nothing; the various variables weren't as tightly controlled as they should have been, but they were very suggestive if not conclusive.

IF it is not the standard sodium thiosulfate formula, dechlorinator shouldn't be a big problem. Feel free to use it without worry if you think it passes the taste test.

*ptui!*
I just tried some Tetra Aquasafe which came with a tank I bought. It was horrible, but not as bad as it used to be. New formula, but still sodium-based. It'll do if you use it at 1/4 the normal dose.

Oh, that reminds me, the dosages you see on the bottles tend to be overkill. The manufacturers don't want to get sued if your prized fish dies from chloramine poisoning, so they tell you to use more than you need to. You can usually cut back to 1/4 dose on most brands and still be okay, especially if you let the water sit and aerate first or use the spray method. Spray into a bucket to degass and remove free chlorine, and then add 1/4 dose of dechlorinator to bucket when full. Stir and wait a day before using for best effectiveness, but you can skip this step if the water being changed isn't a large percentage.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

I wasn’t so concerned about the chemicals, so much as the _schedule_ of water changes. Maybe I should pay more attention to the chemistry, though, since I’m breeding guppies and I want them to be nice and healthy.
This is exactly what I do (I dunno how hoses got into this, so I’m gonna give a lot of detail!)

I have about 5 jugs that are the plastic milk containers. All cleaned out and rinsed with hot water.
I fill these with water from the kitchen sink tap.
Let them sit out at least 24 hours, no aeration.
Then I put 1/8 teaspoon (should be 1/10, but I don’t have a spoon that small... and the bottle says you _can_ use extra “if needed”...oh well) of AmQuel & Novaqua.
I shake up the water (with the lid on), and let it sit for another hour uncapped.

If anybody read my old post about my thermometer breaking, that’s just when I’m in a hurry for changing water, and did it right from tap to bottle to tank... then I would put in the AmQuel and Novaqua - the whole teaspoon, for the ten gallon tank (which actually only holds about 8.5 gallons).

But for my guppies, I’m gonna be a little more careful. For my other fish, since I’m already gonna have water prepared like this, they’ll probably start getting “unrushed” stuff, too, from now on.

So anyway... I got two opinions. Little changes every day is good, but then a big change all at once removes more toxins? What if I did a gallon change every day, then...oh, 4 or 5 gallons on Saturday. I hope that’d be enough to keep my fishies healthy!


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## buddah101 (Mar 20, 2005)

Get a python....Agreed...I fourth that one!!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

No Dawn, that's not enough. That's not even close to enough. You should be changing 5 gallons every day and 20 on saturday.

Guppies are heavy exuders of GIH, growth inhibitor hormone, and they are also heavy exuders of testosterone. This will ruin your fish.
Oh, sure, you can keep them alive with the schedule you propose, but that's not the goal, is it? If you want good guppies, you have to work for them.

The GIH in the water will retard their growth, and it has to be removed fast enough to keep it from being a problem. Only big regular water changes can accomplish this.

The testosterone buildup will likewise need to be removed before it makes ugly mutants out of your fish. Females exposed to testosterone buildup will start getting more color than they should, but they are ugly colors, and they will become sterile as they become androgenous. 

A 1-gallon per day water change in a 70 gallon tank is utterly ineffective, and 5 gallons a week is no better. The math is complicated, but each water change actually results in less and less water actually being replaced with each water change. You will get a stabilizing effect at best with things not as good as you need them, but not getting worse. That won't do for a serious guppy breeder. If you want fish that you can sell instead of those ugly things you usually see, then get a Python and do the job right.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

I’m not against getting a Python. However, I suppose I have some misconceptions about it. What I understand, is that you hook it up to your sink - as I’ve said, the water is so full of chemicals, that I won’t even drink it... let alone give it to my fish to live in!
So if I did that, I wouldn’t be able to aerate/age the water before putting it in, right? Would just the regular dose of AmQuel & Novaqua right after I change the water, be as effective as also letting it air out first?

I’m more than willing to buy a couple of huge buckets and let 5 gallons get treated, and do that every day (and 3x on Saturday). Or do the Python... whichever’s better for the fish, as I don’t mind making an effort to keep ‘em thriving.


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## garfieldnfish (Jan 18, 2005)

Best is to get a water purification system on your tap and then you neither have to leave the water sitting out or use de-clorinator. Was worth well the investment in my case with 11 fish tanks. I also have phython but the hose over time has gotten some black built up inside of it that looks unsafe to me so I have reverted back to buckets. You can also get the temps closer to the one in the tank with the buckets then with the python. My experience anyway.
I would also recommend the weekly water changes over the daily ones. Mainly because fo the stress factor on the fish. The more often you mess with them the more likely they are to stress out and die.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

STOP right there. We've been over this.
Daily water changes are not stressful, and give better results than weekly one.

Look at the Discus fish. I think we'd all agree that the Discus is one of the most high-strubg, stress-filled fish in the hobby, right? Well, guess what? Discus breeders change the water every day, and I'm talking about 50% or more every day.

The stress from water changes comes from things getting too stable in the tank and yet too different from the makeup water. Daily water changes prevent this altogether, and have much less impact on total tank water chemistry than weekly changes.

That said, the water purifier idea is a very good one, and one so obvious it's no wonder I missed it.

Buckets ARE better, if feasible, but if they aren't, a Python and a purifier would make an excellent replacement.

Vivid-Dawn, are you starting to figure out why it's so hard to find good guppies for sale?


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Oiy... the only tap I could put a purifier on, is halfway across the house. I hope Python has long hoses!

As I said, I'm willing to do work - I just want to know the best method. I really want to try having those Blue Diamond guppies on Aquabid... but I don't want to pay up to $75 for fish, only to have them die in a couple weeks. 

Maybe the python would be best. I just calculated weights, and I can't lift more than a full 3 gallon bucket! I was just worried about the chemicles in the water. The website for my city _says_ it's all nice and clean according to health regulations... but it tastes so icky!


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