# Cardinal Tetra Help!



## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

hey you guys, Im new to this thread, always on another popular SW thread... but anyway...

I have always loved Cardinal Tetras and I have made a small nanotank and plan on putting a dozen or so in there...

I am useing RO water...

Substrate is a mix of CaribSea EcoComplete/Flourite/PoolFilter sand

I plan on keeping a few plants like Crypts/moss/ferns/etc...
Wood will be in there a bit too...


I have read allllll kinds of stuff online about them and REALLY REALLY just want some straight answers!


My RO water is about 6.8pH... I want to lower it to about 6 or so to make it very natural...

I have added SeaChems Acid Regulator to it and so far lowered it between 6.4 and 6

I was wondering if the Acid Reg was going to keep it around there or is it going to slowly creep back up to 6.8...


I have read ALL KINDA of stuff on dH.... and found that they like 0-4DGH?
I was planning on keeping it 2*dGH... sound good???
what about KH???


I think thats about it...

anything I need to be adding to the RO water besides the Acid Reg?
RO Right?, something trace?

let me know ..

Id like to get them to breed, but really just want to make as natural environment as possible...

Please help...

I do not have them yet, It will be a week or so.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Anyone please?


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## 2complicated (Aug 25, 2005)

thats all right!! im not sure about the sand though


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

if I remember correctly doesn't caribsea change the pH?


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Oh, no no no, CaribSea... noooo.. I meen um... The Black planted aquarium substrate packed in water... Its called Eco Complete I believe...

Anyway... there isnt much sand... its inert as well.. just silica sand, aka: pool Filter sand and theres not that much...

its a 1/3PF Sand, 1/3 Eco-Complete, 1/3 Flourite...

the substrate is autumn dark and black... its an appropriate substrate for these fish lol...


So....

What about dKH and dGH?
what needs to be what?

I also picked up some TetraAqua? Blackwater Extract..

and Im cycling the tank in with a dozen Feeder Guppys and some stability...
they come in on friday afternoon..

I am getting a dozen florida Raised lg cardinals, which are normally between .5inches and 1 inch...

I plan on setting up two more tanks, or so... a 29gallon and a 10 gallon..
they will be housed in a 3.5gallon nanotank for now... with a dueto mini and a heater, at 80*F, live plants, which come in tomorow afternoon, I will be getting plants like

Java Moss
Crypt Wendtii
Varius other Species
Crypt Retrospiralis !!!!! 
Altern. Renekii, (red temple)
and a few others


After the 29 is set up and the 10 is... I will be getting a colony..
Hopefully I can get up to 500 eventually... but For now Im aiming for between 50 and 100 depending on how I can do this...


Im a bit upset about the pH of the nano right now!!

Im useing a Kent HI-S RO unit ( 4stage ), 2 cartriges and 2 Hi-S 60gpd RO Membrains...

now, my pH in the trashcan its being stored at is about 6.8pH, however when put in a tank and heated up, turns into 7.0pH, and today I tested it and it was 7.2... IM ILL!!!

Im looking for a PLANT SAFE EFFECTIVE way to lower the pH of RO water to 6.0... and keep it steady there...

anyways you guys can help me with that???

Ive orderd some Acid Buffer from Seachem... and that is supposed to be Plant safe, as a DEVOTED Saltwater Keeper I use SeaChems buffers alot, and have great success...
I was useing Acid Regulator for the pH, and discoverd within 4 hours after heavy aireation that it DOESNT stay where you want it!!!

plus, its not plant safe...

Does anyone know if Flourite causes your pH to rise? I know its not the sand.. but could the Eco-Complete do it?... im getting ILLL!! errrr

And, Is there another good Blackwater Extract you guys use???


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I believe that peat moss is used to lower pH somewhat, but needs to be replaced periodically. Your ro water should be close to 7.0 shouldn't it? 7.2 isn't horrible for cardinals, I've heard of people breeding them in that pH anyway.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Yes, I would rather have them as Amazon Natural as possible...

and what do you recommend for lowering it now?

Acid Buffer ok?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It might take a few tries to get it to stay down, but you might as well try it. The substrates have buffers in them because most plants besides crypts like alkaline pH.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

First off welcome to the forums...................

What size is your tank? This will be crucial in how much of what you will be using (if any) to alter your ph (which is something I don't recommend).
I like cardinals but never had any success breeding them.
You did state this was a nano tank so I'm ASSuming its smaller than 10 gallons. Trying to lower your ph and keep it stable will be really stressful on the fish. Caribsea's Eco-complete will buffer you kh to ~4-5 for months (like 4 or 5 months). The safest way to lower your PH is to inject CO2. DIY would be perfect for a tank this size. Adding blackwater extract will help also as well as darken the water to give it a more amazonian effect. A 2degree gh is very doable and shouldn't cause you any problems as long as the kh is above 2-3.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Simpte said:


> What size is your tank?


It's a 4 gal. nano. ( another thread ). 
Shawn, you are putting yourself through a lot of grief for such a small tank. You don't need to put anymore than 3-4 cardinal tetras in that tank. I would just leave it at your tap water PH until you get ready to breed them. When you get that larger tank, it will be easier to play with the chemistry. In the meantime, study the relationship between KH and PH. 
With an RO unit, you can do what you want to do but you need to have a good understanding. You might can get the PH you want just by mixing RO water with tap water and then filtering through peat. Remember... hardness is MORE important than PH.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Trying to lower your ph and keep it stable will be really stressful on the fish.


I agree, if not done properly...



> Caribsea's Eco-complete will buffer you kh to ~4-5 for months (like 4 or 5 months).


Is this ok for Cardinals?



> The safest way to lower your PH is to inject CO2.


I also agree, but in a Nano Tank is this size, I dont think thats too wonderful because of a possibility of CO2 buildup with as many plants are in it now..

I have picked up the following:
3 5inch Stems of Egeria Densa*Anacharis*
5 or so 4 or 5 inch stems of Giant Hygrophilia
5 or so 5 inch stems of Altern. Renekii *Red Temple*
Cant remember what the other species is.. I think its:
Im 99.9% sure its Heteranthera Zosterifolia
and a small plant 6inches or so of Crypt. Retrospiralis



> Adding blackwater extract will help also as well as darken the water to give it a more amazonian effect.


yes, What brand do you recommend?
Im using TetraAqua BlkWater Extract...

Principal Ingredients:
Vitamins B2, B6, B12, Nicotinic Amide, Panthenol, Biotin, and Peat Extract

I have seen Kent Botanical HUMIC?
anyone like it?

What Blackwater Extract do you guys recommend???



> A 2degree gh is very doable and shouldn't cause you any problems as long as the kh is above 2-3.


Ive got a question:
Today I tested the gH and kH with some mardel brand strips..
the Total Alk was I think 25 and the Hardness was 50.... 
these are in ppm...anyone know how to turn that into Degrees?



> Shawn, you are putting yourself through a lot of grief for such a small tank. You don't need to put anymore than 3-4 cardinal tetras in that tank. I would just leave it at your tap water PH until you get ready to breed them. When you get that larger tank, it will be easier to play with the chemistry. In the meantime, study the relationship between KH and PH.


Yes, lol, I am aware of how difficult it is to keep a small tank stable...
I dont run Tap... not anymore... dont like it, In using RO, and my pH is staying between 7.0 and 7.2... I would like to get it to 6.0
...
Yes, I know 12Cardinals will be a bit crowded for a while, but I am in the process of painting my room, where they will be... and once I get that done I am switching them over to a 29gallon.... 
Do you have any sites I can look up for kH and pH?



> With an RO unit, you can do what you want to do but you need to have a good understanding. You might can get the PH you want just by mixing RO water with tap water and then filtering through peat. Remember... hardness is MORE important than PH.


Yes, Thats the good part... I meen, with RO water youve got virtually PURE water... so All you need to do is add a buffering agent that is going to cause a low pH...
Id honestly rather not filter through peat, but will if I need to, any recommendations? brand of peat? please give me as much information as you can... 

I wasnt aware of Hardness what more important than pH... by Hardness do you meen TDS???


thanks you guys for the help so far.. please try and answer all my questions, lol, I know its alot, but thats how you learn! haha

thanks alot so far!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Yes said:


> Wellllllll, that's almost correct. RO water has all buffering removed. That is a problem. You need something in your water. With no buffering, PH is unstable. That's why I suggested mixing some tap water. If you can determine the hardness ( GH and KH ) of your tap water, you can experiment to find the ratio that will give you the hardness value you want. After that, filtering through peat or adding extract to get the PH set, is the easy part.
> So, fix your hardness (KH) first and then the PH.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

> So, fix your hardness (KH) first and then the PH.


AHHH... duh! lol, NOW IT HITS ME! duh, Youve got to have a buffer to have a pH... geeze!

lol!

AND OF ALL PEOPLE, ONE WITH A SALTWATER AQUARIUM FOR 7 YEARS, YOUD THINK IT WOULD HIT ME AT FIRST! HAHA

ok, so heres the deal-e-o!

Got my cardinals (12) acclimating slowly, by drip system... Im sure you know..

anyway... I tested my gH and kH today in the nano, and they are both at 3 degrees...

my tapwater is EXTREMELY high GH AND KH, too high to test, because it uses too many drops!

so...

I made up some new water, some top off water and made the pH of it at 6.0...

I recived my Acid Buffer, and picked up some KH buffer too...

I took my RO water and added a 4th a teaspoon of KH buffer in approx. 2.5gallons... and then about 2 or so measures of Acid Buffer...

my KH is at 3 in the bucket and the GH is at 0
the pH is at 6.0...
I only topped off about 2 cups of evaportated and used water..


the Cardinals came in and I tested the pH, which seemed high for cardinals, it was about 7.4 or so...
I started testing the GH/KH, and got up to 10degrees and quit...

They are Florida Raised, and they are probably useing tap water for adults, which is usefull for hobbiests because they are accustom to the high pH and hardness...

I have hand picked them straight from the shipping bag...
I have tryed to get an even or so ammount of males and females...


I plan on slowly lowering the pH for them, and adding more blkwater...

I soon, VERY SOON, within a week, will be setting up my 29gallon so I will have it to house the colony in...

I have figured that I will use the nano as a breeding tank, and grow them out in it too.. Or possibly a 10 gallon!

I have a REALLY concerning question though..

the FRY, 
I know they eat infusoria?
Where can I get this?.... I have heard of a product for it, but am having a hard time remembering who makes it..


I dont know how small the cardinal fry are, so I dont know if they can eat baby brine off the bat, which I DONT BELIEVE THEY CAN..

so Infusoria? is my best bet... Microblooms are another thing.. trying exactly to figure out how to create these as well...
I see a long road of trial and error ahead of me... errrr
I HATE THAT ROAD!
IM GETTING ON THE HIGHWAY!! $#%* the ROAD!!!!!! HAHA!!!

anyway!..

anything else youd like to share, please do!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Shawnts106 said:


> AHHH... duh! lol, NOW IT HITS ME! duh, Youve got to have a buffer to have a pH... geeze!


Again you are close. You've got to have buffer to have a "STABLE" PH. Water will always have a PH. Absolutely pure water has a PH of 7.0, which is neutral. Less that 7.0 is acid and above is alkaline. PH is actually a measure of hydrogen ions in the water. 
There are three types of hardness. Temporary, permanent and total. Temporary is the one we are most concerned with. It is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions in the water. The reason it's call temporary is because it can be removed from the water. That's why you get a lime scale on your shower heads in hard water areas. Carbonate hardness, or KH, is what buffers your Ph. 
Soooo, Ph is a measure of hydrogen ions, as we said before... Carbonate hardness, in effect, releases hydrogen ions if the Ph starts to fall. That's the buffering we talk about. If you have a high KH, you have lots of excess hydrogen ions that won't allow your PH to go down. You have to get the KH down before you can ever hope to get PH down.. 

Gosh, I hope this make a little bit of sense.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Again you are close. You've got to have buffer to have a "STABLE" PH. Water will always have a PH. Absolutely pure water has a PH of 7.0, which is neutral. Less that 7.0 is acid and above is alkaline. PH is actually a measure of hydrogen ions in the water.


Well aware my friend, well aware...



> There are three types of hardness. Temporary, permanent and total. Temporary is the one we are most concerned with. It is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate ions in the water. The reason it's call temporary is because it can be removed from the water. That's why you get a lime scale on your shower heads in hard water areas. Carbonate hardness, or KH, is what buffers your Ph.
> Soooo, Ph is a measure of hydrogen ions, as we said before... Carbonate hardness, in effect, releases hydrogen ions if the Ph starts to fall. That's the buffering we talk about. If you have a high KH, you have lots of excess hydrogen ions that won't allow your PH to go down. You have to get the KH down before you can ever hope to get PH down..


This was very informative... thanks!!!

SO... now that we have that all out of the way... lets move onto other additives..

So far, when I make up new water, I am getting a bucket or so of RO water, putting some SeaChems Trace, for the plants, some Blackwater extract, from TetraAqua (double dosage because the dosage on the bottle isnt enough), and the Acid Buffer and KH Buffer... in correct proportions... 

ok... 
My main question is, is that ok?
also...

Is there any preferred Black Water Extract?Brand?

Filtering through peat:
What brand Peat? where to buy? how much?

Foods and Feeding:
Cardinal Tetras, high quality flake.. freezedried bloodworms, live blackworms... frozen bloodworms, baby brineshrimp, daphnia (frozen), freshwater amphipods(if available)... anything else you guys can think of? any foods to enduce breeding response?

29Gallon Substrate:
I do not want to use my phosphate filled mixture anymore... but would like to get a good fine substrate that the Cardinals will enjoy..
I have heard that they prefer dark substrate, therefore trying to stick to it.
I also need a substrata that is going to be nice for plants, encluding, swords, and gloss. other branched plants etc....

I have just gotten done painting my office area that the 29gallon is going to go in, sooo... It will probably be up by sunday or so... 
I would like a 55gallon, but however... cant get one at the moment.. that will be my next project...

FILTRATION for 29gallon:
Geeze, geeze, geeze, I really REALLY HATE HOB's... they are noisy and I have had too many problems with them.. This tank is going in my room/office so its going to be near where I sleep, and I HAVE TO SLEEP in complete quite...
So far I like the Duetos, I have a mini running on the nano, and its very very quite.. which is EXCELENT...
So I was wondering if I could put a couple (2) of dueto 50/100's in the 29 for filtration... And since Cardinals are from areas that are virtually stagnant... current isnt a huge issue and the filtration needs to be slightly subdued...

LIGHTING FOR 29Gallon Cardinal Tank:

I have 2 65W 50/50 ( half 6700K, half 10,000 ) Compact bulbs that I can put in the 29 gallons canopy...

My question is this going to be too much for these guys?
Remember there is going to be a good bit of BLKWATER extract in the tank for that teawater appearence and health...

would 1 65W do it?


Plants/Wood:
Plants will include Hygrophilia, Red Temple, Ozelot/amazon swords, Red Tiger Lotus, Anubias, maybe a crypt or too...
Any other suggestions? I would like some Glosso, or Sag for the front cover to provide a nice lawn effect... but dont know if I will be able to do it with the lighting, or water chemistry...
In the 29Gallon Im aiming for a pH of 6.0-6.5 and Hardness of 1 degree or 2... Temp will be 80*f to 82*f... sound good temp for Cardinals?... lighting will possibly be the two 65watts...

anything else you guys can think of would be great.. so far Im on the site WAY more than my saltwater one.. LOL, my SW fish think Ive abandoned them! HAHA.. but I must admit Ive been spending more time paying attention to the water chemistry on the nano than that of the SW... mainly because I know the reef tank is fine...

The nanos Dimentions are
(L) 10.25Inches X (W) 10.25Inches X (H) 8.5inches

Any other info would be great!


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2006)

Holy cow dude! For what it's worth. Why don't you just collect rain water for these cardinals? If your rain water is neutral which I bet it isn't you can simply lower the ph with peat moss.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Shawnts106 said:


> So far, when I make up new water, I am getting a bucket or so of RO water, putting some SeaChems Trace, for the plants, some Blackwater extract, from TetraAqua (double dosage because the dosage on the bottle isnt enough), and the Acid Buffer and KH Buffer... in correct proportions...
> 
> ok...
> My main question is, is that ok?
> Any other info would be great!


Slow down a little. I can't keep up. Let's take thing's one at a time. You are trying to do too much all at once. Seachem trace, blackwater extract, acid buffer, Kh buffer???? What are you trying to achieve? You need to have a plan. If I add X to Y, what will that do. What result can I expect? Did it work?
To start with... what is the KH, GH and PH of your tap water? What is the KH, GH, and PH of your RO water? After you draw tap water, wait about an hour before you test it. Get back to me with the results. Good luck.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Aerate the water for awhile before testing it, too. That will allow your dissolved gas ratios to reset to normal, which will give you a truer reading. Fresh-from-the-faucet water is often very different from water even one day old.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Slow down a little. I can't keep up. Let's take thing's one at a time. You are trying to do too much all at once. Seachem trace, blackwater extract, acid buffer, Kh buffer???? What are you trying to achieve? You need to have a plan. If I add X to Y, what will that do. What result can I expect? Did it work?
> To start with... what is the KH, GH and PH of your tap water? What is the KH, GH, and PH of your RO water? After you draw tap water, wait about an hour before you test it. Get back to me with the results. Good luck.


OPPS! ok, your right, lets take this one thing at a time!

I am trying to achieve a very natural amazon flooded forest water quality..
Im trying to get 

a consistant pH, EVENTUALLY 6.0- or - 6.5, and GH/KH only about 2 degrees!

the Tap water runs 7.4 to 7.6.. too high for what Im wanting..
the TDS is VERY HIGH, however I have not tried the hour or overnight thing with air.... I will do that and get back to you guys!...

I did recieve my cardinals, and after 4 hours of acclimation got them in the tank, only 2 days later to have lost all but 5 out of my dozen... due to some fungus that covered their back half..

WHICH I KNOW WHY!... I cycled the tank with NASTY @%^ feeder guppys!.. they where infected too, same symptoms I took 2 out the day I got them due to that!... 

I WILL NEVER CYCLE A TANK WITH THEM AGAIN!!! fishless next time!...
so... last night I treated with Furizone light and the 5 I have not are doing alot better, no symptoms so far, and very active... shoaling tightly.. lol, but one is a little honery thing!...

I will be getting a 60 gallon cubetank soon, I HOPE!... if not, I may just buy a 60gallon or 115 gallon cubetank...

I have got an AWWWSOME peice of driftwood that I PLAN ON USEING! haha


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Shawnts106 said:


> the Tap water runs 7.4 to 7.6..


OK, that's a start. Once again, what is your tap water GH and KH? What is your RO water PH and KH/ GH?
If you are going to "fishless cycle" you need to do something with those guppies, and don't buy anymore fish yet.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Speaking of cycle.... you would be better off cycling your tank BEFORE you start trying to lower PH. Tanks cycle faster at a high PH. IMO, you need to find some pure ammonia and start that process ASAP. Don't worry about anything else right now.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

OK, hey...
Lets clarify some things real quick..

The guppys have been gone... the cycled the tank in for me, along with A SUPER AMOUNT of stability... the pH is a stable 7.0 now...

My RO water is VERY PURE... the pH of it is 7.0 and the GH/KH is both 0degrees

my Taps GH/KH is VERY HIGH, above 20degrees.. I will have to retest it to make sure.. so I need to draw a big and aireate it tonight... 


We also have silicates and phosphates in our tap, which I dont want in the tank.. so RO water is what I will be useing


the 5 cardinals I have left are doing well.... one is showing a little bit of that desease on its tail, just a very small amount, but I DONT want to risk it, so I have treated furizone again to kill it off...

the Cardinals we got in at work that I acclimated into our tanks have dont TREMENDOUSLY GOOD!

no dealths at all..
Out tank at work runs on tap water for customers.... the pH is 7.2 I believe and gh/kh is unknown to me yet...


The reason why I lost so many of my cardinals wasnt a young tank, but a desease from the guppys!... I Will NEVER cycle the tank with feeders again!

I NOW have a 60gallon cubetank from OCEANVIEW that I recieved as used and part of the silicone seal had broken, so I have it resealing right now..

Once Im sure it can hold water its going to be setup! 
so they will have alot more room, and I will have alot more stable water chemistry...

the cube is 2feet by 2feet by 2feet... 
I have got an AWSOME Peice of driftwood that Will be put in it, it takes up the intire tank almost, very large stump shape... very beautiful!

they will enjoy that!

BUT I HAVE A QUESTION:

This wood is probably caribean, and its not too dense.... It floats needless to say...

I want to weight it down so I can use it, but I need to know some good ways how... anyone got any???


also, Can you varnish driftwood, to prevent rotting and tannic acid?

my main reason why I want to varnish is to prevent rotting because it has a hole down the middle and its very soft in their, so I have really pulled alot of it out and want to varnish it too make sure its not going to rot...

It is an aquarium made peice that I have demolished somewhat... came attached to a base, but after turning it upside down, I like it 10 times more that way... and want to keep it that way...

anyone got any ideas???


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Just a BUMP!

and and update:

Down to 2 cardinals..
and I have had to change out my substrate because of the phosphates have caused an algae bloom...
I had this same substrate in my 29gallon MONTHS ago... and I had green water for about a month before just decideing to get rid of it...

I used EVERY KIND OF ALGAE KILLER YOU CAN THINK OF!... nothing worked

So I picked up a bag of dark fine gravel at my work and have changed it out...

these cardinals that I have left seem healthy... I just hope they dont catch that desease either!


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## AshleytheGreat (Jul 24, 2005)

Shawnts106 said:


> This wood is probably caribean, and its not too dense.... It floats needless to say...I want to weight it down so I can use it, but I need to know some good ways how... anyone got any???



Ive seen a lot of people use dumbells


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## AshleytheGreat (Jul 24, 2005)

Oh, while I was eating my sandwhich I thought of a few questions for you Shawnts.

1) Since your going to got though this whole show just to breed the tetras, do you even think they would even consider breeding due to stress from overcrowding?

2) And IF they did breed and have fry, dont you think all the other fish pact in there would eat them before you even to a chance to see them?



Best of luck!


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## meyerhaus (Feb 27, 2006)

Bummer about the guppy disease. As a cardinal lover myself, I feel your pain. I am going to get a 30 tall together in my basement as a breeding tank this spring, so I may be coming to you all to learn from your experiences.

That cube and driftwood will make a neat tank; post a pic when you get it going.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Hey again:

Ashleythegreat:

Answer to #1: Yes Im sure they wouldnt if they were overcrowded...
I suppose I stretched the truth about 50 to 100 of them in the tank... lol maybe maximum 30...

And just to clarify Im not breeding them in the display...

Answer to #2: Of course other fish, as well as the parents would consume the fry... thats why the display is just a display... and a breeding tank will be separte...
BUT: I will keep the breeding tank and display the same...

Im not trying to mass produce cardinals... I would just like to raise a few to say that I did and give hobbiests in my area more hardy fish to choose from..

There are alot of fish I would love to breed, but chose these because they are in high demand, colorful, beautiful in schools and great small pets for community tanks....

Meyerhaus:
Yes It was tragic... the 2 I have left out of my dozen are doing good today... they are both eatting and show no signs of the desease so far...
LUCKLY I get my dozen refunded and replaced because the guppys are from the same supplier that the cardinals are from.. and since their guppys gave the cardinals the desease its only fair to replace any losses due to bad care on their part...


I will definatly get some pictures asap!


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## meyerhaus (Feb 27, 2006)

Quick question for you: It may just be the light this morning, but it almost looked the the red on my Cardinals was a little dull. Is there something that can cause that to happen biologically (and not just lighting)?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Yes. Either they just woke up and haven't gotten fully colored yet, or they are sick or otherwise unhappy.


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

AshleytheGreat said:


> Ive seen a lot of people use dumbells



LOL yah im still struggling with my big driftwood - it's been a month and it still floats (tho it is heavier and obviously more water logged) -- so the 8lb dumbbell is still on it -- if i had planned better and not been so impatient, I probably would have not filled the tank with water yet and siliconed the driftwood to the bottom... but it's too late for that since the wood is 1/2 water logged and it would be way too time consuming to dry it out and dry the tank etc etc to silicone it.

i was looking into a slate bottom and siliconing the wood to that, but again, i think the wood would need to be dried out completely to do this. is this correct? 

i have read on other sites that sometimes it takes up to 6 mos to fully waterlog some driftwood so I will continue to be patient as this piece is truly beautiful and i envision my plecos loving it.

on a side note, shawn, i would not varnish it - also, the tannic acid u seem to want to remove is precisely the best thing for the cards - it will also make your tank more acid and the tannic isnt harmful but will add to the natural effect you are seeking. however, if you are so opposed to it, simply add activated carbon to your filtration as that will remove the *yellowing* look. be sure to change the carbon every 3 weeks to keep that up tho.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Boiling your driftwood will force a lot of the air & excess tannins out of it in a single day.


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

yea i read that somewhere -- only prob is it's too big for any pot i have -- way too big  it is 2 feet long and 1 foot wide


but thnx


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for the help with the wood you guys... right now it is simply waterlogging in the filled 60cube on my porch...

I have siliconed it to slate.. and it seems to have worked well.. 

Yes I am wanting tanic acids in the water however.... I am not sure that the wood is not going to rot... thats mainly what I was worried about... 

It so far seems fine...

the log that I have is HUGE!... it itself weighs about 10lbs...
AND STILL FLOATS!... its about 2 feet wide, a little over 2 feet high and about 2 feet long.. so its really perfect for the 60cube...

I will try and get some pictures of it outside as soon as I can...


On the Cardinal Subject:

My last two... a male and female are hanging in their, seems to be doing ALOT better... and eatting well too... So yesterday I picked up 1 otocinclus and 1 juhlii cory for cleaning up... 

the got acclimated for about 4 hours or so.. and are fine today...


I hope to have the cube up soon... within 2 weeks... lol, however My mother has suddenly decided that she wants a pond with KOI in it ... so we are as we speak digging up an old flowerbed to transform it into a koi garden!

anyway...

I am a bit confused as to what to feed the fry...
I hear microworms... but dont know where to get them... I also hear green water... and Im thinking that that means the fry eat phytoplankton??? and also I hear INFUSORIA?... 

Can they feed off of Fry food made by kent? or someone... its in a tube...


lets get started on the feeding subject now....


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Microworms are great--tiny and easy to raise. You need a starter culture from another aquarist or through the mail. New hatched brine shrimp are good too. Get some frozen baby brine to feed until your eggs hatch. Infusoria and green water feed babies too small for baby brine. Look to the killie and betta people for help here.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Hey everyone... just wanted to show you what it looks like so far... still makeing sure that everything is ok as far as leaks go and stuff... but here is the tank outside cureing and the driftwood in it soaking ...

notice the bakpac filter on it.. Im thinking of useing it... but I am testing it out for noise right now...

since the aquarium is going in my room, its got to be dead silent...

I was originally thinking of duetos... but I dont think thats going to be adequent filtration..

so here it is so far...


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i am not smarter than god....he don't use RO...he has no clue what eco complete is....or none of that other junk...go back up to where that funny lookin guy with the sunglasses is and just do it.
RAINWATER+natural..one way or another all of the water on earth comes from rainwater..i am unable to justify a reason for RO in my tanks.
peat is a natural acidifier..it will even help to soften the water a little..too many folks mess with stuff too much..go down to the lake or river and get some really super gravel...as coarse or fine as you want in "REAL" natural colors..and it is free..some nice plants...a nice piece of wood..
go to your local garden center.get a bag of milled sphagnum moss..or even some jiffy-7 peat pellets.grab a pair of the old ladies knee high nylons..put some peat in the hose and tie it off..you can even use a twist tie..filter your rainwater through that for awhile..
all will be well..there are lots of really smart people here.you have gotten a lot of great information..i cannot fault a single word of advice you have gotten.
i am just too cheap and lazy to go through all that stuff.
i like the lotsoffish way.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

lol, seriously why mess with pH and everything when cardinals have bred in your water parameters? I believe a lot of people are breeding them in 7.2-7.0 water now.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Geeze, this thread seems to have turned agaist what I am doing really fast!

I have really really gotten the water thing all straightend out...

I simply take my RODI water... (I have added on a DI unit for extra purity) and simply heat it up to the preferred water temp, and aerate? it well... I add them some TetraAqua Blackwater extract for color, and a few vitamins... some fresh trace by seachem for fish health and some seachems flourish trace for the plants.. just a pinch of acid buffer from seachem to adjust the pH, let it stabalize and Im getting exactly what I want.. a nice 6.5pH and a low hardness of 2GH and 0KH.... 

so far everything is working out...

I am no longer useing the KH buffer.... dont need it...
Ive got a VERY stable pH in the nano... a pH of 6.5 that has stayed there since Ive done this...

Im NOT buffing the tank itself... and my phosphate problem has gone away... the algae that had started growing has been destroyed by the otocinclus and low phosphates... and the cory is doing his job..
the cardinals have seriously stabalized... no more dealths... the 2 I have left are getting darker and more beautiful every day..
so, Today to make a small school I have added another... and after 6 grueling hours of acclimation I finnally got her in there...
I hope she survives... for some reason the cardinals at work have started dropping off... I think its stress... from water quality... did some testing and didnt like what we found... so we are correcting that problem..
I hope to save this one... we will see... so far so good, it has been in there for about an hour and is already out and swimming with the other two... not breathing abnormally hard and is overall acclimating well... color isnt up to par yet.. but we will see what tomorow brings..

as for the picture... OBVEOUSLY It didnt work... so I will try another time!...


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

sorry to sound harsh, we didn't mean that, it just seems like your putting in a lot of work, when you don't REALLY have to.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

lol, HARSH AND NO comments about the beautiful peice of driftwood! haha
jk!

Well, I am not going to use rainwater because I do not trust that here...
We have an incinerator(?) not far away... it burns up really dangerous chemical war agents.... plus there are alot of factories not to far ... a few miles away...

AND ALSO, it does rain here... but its normally not enough to gather...
the RODI unit lets me control EXACTLY what I am putting into the aquarium...

I dont mind the work... lol, its not that much work to simply grab some water from the can, sprinkle a bit of this and that on it, swirl it round' and let it heat up for a bit...


plus Im only dealing with a 3.5gallon aquarium...

the 60cube isnt going to be that much work either... just more buckets and a bit more "sprinkling" haha

Now, past the "your doing too much work" subject..

lets move onto substrata


Anyone know of something that is NOT going to make the cube into a phosphate bath for green water???

is SEACHEMS FLOURISH full of phosphates... yes I have used it but that was with 3 other substrates...


let me know..

oh, and comments on the wood is welcome! HAHA


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2006)

Nice wood! 

Hey now that you got this nano tank water down, you otta try propagating hard corals. Heck, it would be less complicated!


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

lol, finnally a complement!

I tested the Phosphates on the nano with the cardinals in it yesterday and they are sure enough off the chart again...

I then tested my RODI water and it was 0...

I dont understand where on earth these phosphates are comming from!

I have changed gravel!

I tested my water ready to go in the tank and it was full too...

so whatever I am adding its making phosphorus

Would blackwater extract cause phosphates???


I duno, BUT its really getting on my nerves!


BTW: the replacement cardinals came in yesterday....

I recieved 11 replacements 10 for the ones I lost and another for an even number...

Now I have 14 ... yes a bit much for the nano, but that isnt their home forever, and I am doing "daily" 50% waterchanges...(everyother day sometimes)

these that I did recieve yesterday are wildcaught.. so... I was not surprised to see that they looked a bit famished.... and slightly Ill, so I have treated everyone with furizone light, to kill of any bacterial infection they have... I noticed one or two in the bag had a bit of popeye, which I didnt get those... and also, a few that I do have have a bit of a swollen, it appears, lower jaw... so To make sure they are ok, I medicated...


so far my pH is very stable at 6.5 and hasnt changed at all..
I plan on keeping them at 6.5 with a very low hardness.. 0KH and 0-3GH...
the temp is about 80-82*F.. and the ones I have had are still doing wonderfully... these new ones started acting like they were wanting to eat an hour or so after I released them... I havent fed yet today...so We will see if they go for anything...

Besides looking a bit hungry they look very good for wild caughts


The pH in the bag they came in was 6.0 or lower... so they got a sure and steady slow acclimation... 

Anymore tips on getting wildcaughts to eat would be good...

Anything frozen or dried is good, I do not have access to any live foods at this time unfortunatly... nor is there a river or creek anywhere nearby that I would even think about getting livefoods out of...too polluted...

I MAY be able to get some LIVE blackworms... but not soon soon, I suspect within 2 weeks to a month... so thats why I am trying everything...

I have to feed, Baby Brine, MicroPellets, Flakes, freezedried bloodworms, frozen mosquito larvae... and some cyclopeze... which I duno if I can feed them or not...

isnt Cyclopeze(SP?) a marine microinvert larvae..???
its Artemia something or nother'... I forget


let me know...

thanks so far!


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## meyerhaus (Feb 27, 2006)

That cube and driftwood will be a nice combo. Are you keeping the two together?

That would look really nice away from a wall, but I am sure that you will need to have it against one...bummer.

I am lucky enough to have an electrician friend who will put outlets in my floor wherever I want, so if I wanted to ever do a coffee table tank (or similar) I wouldn't have to worry about running extensions.

Do you plan to put your cardinals in there?


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

thanks...

Yes, the two are going together, and yes that WOULD BE awsome if I could do a center room tank with it, however, filtration would be a big problem... not to mention where... or how... 

It will be viewed from 3 sides though where it is going... so that is a good thing...


yes the cardinals will HOPEFULLY soon be in this tank...


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Well, I think there is a problem somewhere down this dirty road!

I have lost more than half of what I brought home... the ones that die have shown the following:

White Patches of skin, not ich
unable to swim away fast in a straight line, they just do quick tumbling motions, and do flips in the water
clouded eyes
not eatting
stiff fins that show white patches in the "fin pit"


I either have been getting REALLY SICK tetras or they are dieing because of something Im doing to them, however I do not think this because everything checks out ok...

Im not messing with water in the main tank, just makeup water, and Im not even messing with it hardly at all besides adding some trace back to replace what is lost in the RODI...

I did FINNALLY figure out what was causeing the phosphates in the tank, and the makeup water... its the TETRAQUA BLACKWATER EXTRACT....
I took a water sample before I added it, and at this time I had added the 2 traces... then tested a small amount in another container WITH the extract... and TADA phosphates off the chart!!!!


So the new makeup water does NOT have the blkwater extract in it...

is there a BLACKWATER extract that doesnt contain phosphates???
seems like kents BOTANICA HUMIC may not because its forumlated for planted tanks...???

any help in the phosphorus department would help a ton...

and the tetra department too...


Is there anything I can do to them while acclimating them *dripping* to stop desease...???

When we recieved them there were already about 4 or 5 dead in the bag out of 25...

the ones in the bag had some of the same syptoms as I listed above...

what is this???

I do believe that the reason why my florida raised ones died because of the guppy disease, but this is ENOUGH!!!!

would you guys recommend qting them before they go in the display???

what size tank to QT 25 cardinals, a 29gallon??


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Lost more... only 3 left with one with a bad case of pop-eye...

the one that is sick is a wild caught, the other two are florida raised..

I dont know what the deal with these cardinals is, but somewhere down the colection/breeding line they are getting very sick...

I have spoken to my boss about this and she agrees with these problems, I as well as our store is experiencing the same problem with them... the wild's are far worse... 


I have set up a QT tank for new arivals... 
And Will be ordering 3 dozen... I dont know If I want to order dozen bred, and 1 dozen wild, or all bred, or what combo...

EITHER WAY!...
I need to medicate them as soon as they get in the tank...

SO, what meds would you recommend for medicating bacterial infections...
I have got some marycin something that treats for popeye and oother bacterial infections...
do you guys think this would help?

also, I have had a real problem getting wild's to eat....
Any recommendations for helping them eat?
I have tried:
FROZEN: Baby Brine, Daphnia, Cyclopeze, flakes, micropellets and mosquito larvae...

the will act as though they are interested but dont want to eat it...

the florida bred's eat ALOT better!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Is formalin safe for cardinals? Its used a lot on wild caught fish.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

Good question... I know with Quick Cure you are only suppose to use half dossage on them... or any other tetra for that matter...

Does Formalin kill off bacterial infections, like popeye, and rot... other things like that?

I have not had a case of ICH with them yet... which hopefully I WONT!


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

try mela-fix


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

MelaFix sounds good, but I worry its not going to be strong enough... or work well...

Lets here some more suggestions on getting rid of POPEYE, and Body Infections


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2006)

I don't mean to rain on your parade but it is difficult enough just acclimating healthy cardinals to captivity, trying to acclimate cardinals with both popeye and body infections while curing them is nuts.


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## Shawnts106 (Feb 27, 2006)

I think I have found that out...

Ok, I researched some diseases and I am 99% sure what I believe they have had...
Its Columnaris(spelling?).... and popeye and possible, but doughtfully some fish TB...

these are from the WILD CAUGHTS.... the Florida Breds only died because they got reinfected with guppy disease and died...


I think that Im going to get all 3 dozen Florida Bred and treat with furizone, and possible Marycn1 or 2 or both... or with all three medications...

what do you guys recommend for these diseases... I am aware that fish TB is almost impossible to cure...


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