# ecosystem in a box?



## xerxeswasachump (Mar 29, 2006)

Ok guys,
I am interested in setting up a 55gallon (possibly 75) coral reef with no fish, just invertebrates. Ok maybe i will get a couple of blennys or something. 
I would like to make a completely balanced marine ecosystem. Something that requires just small water changes, but no major cleaning or supplementing or other maintenance. 
After doing some research i have decided that i definitely would like to make a Plenum and maybe have some sort of macro algae cultivation. 
In my search i stumbled upon this web site: http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/reefugium.html
What do you guys think of this stuff? Have any of you ever tried anything like this?


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Im totally for your idea of a self sustaining reef system. The only thing im not entirely supportive of is the jaubert-style plenum system and the miracle mud.
Dr. Jean Jaubert introduced the idea of a plenum in order to create an environment for anaerobic nitrifying bacteria to live converting nitrate into nitrogen gas. Jauberts system worked well.... The only thing is that Dr Jauberts systems were lightly stocked, partially connected to the Medeterainian Sea, and had large surface area between water and sand. I dont think its been tested in a closed system like we generally have in our living rooms..

IMHO Mircale Mud isnt so miraculous. Ive heard some stories of tanks crashing months after instaling a mircale mud fuge. Also the mud needs to be changed more often than the manufacturer advises.


However, if you want to create a self sustaining system that includes corals inverts and a lightly stocked fish list, then its totally do-able. I would go with a fuge that has tons of macro and pods for the inverts, and alot of live sand. Youll probably have to dose kalk and alk if you keep LPS or SPS, but softies all youll need is light. If you want blennies then a good thriving pod population is even more important. But in any case, its totally doable.

Keep in mind youll need an auto top off system, and i would reccomend RO/DI unit so you dont have to deal with algae blooms.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

No such thing as an self sustained ecosystem in our tanks. Just not possible. Everything needs to be replenished from time to time.


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

Damon said:


> No such thing as an self sustained ecosystem in our tanks. Just not possible. Everything needs to be replenished from time to time.


agree. even softies need iodine and other trace elements, water changes are a must, or at least very good dosing.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Actually, it is possible, but you need a system with lots of zonation, and a volume of about 3000 gallons. Until then, though, your system WILL need proper maintenance.

Plenums and mud don't work together very well. They do two very different things for different reasons, and their goals are against each other. In a very large system this can work nicely, but not so much in a small one.

Plenums break nitrate down into nitrogen gas for elimination. Mud breaks nitrate down to ammonia for easy uptake by the macroalgae. There is really no real point in having both in use, as they'll just get in each other's way.

If I had to choose which to use, I'd go with the mud every time, since it does so much more than denitrify, and because mud systems VASTLY outperform Jaubert and Berlin systems in every way.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

I personally dont think its as impossible. Ive seen it been done by a handful of credible reefers. The key is to stock with little or no fish..... youll still have to dose, but its possible. If you plan on having more than a single small fish or 2, then you could forget about it. Otherwise it can (and has) be(en) done.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

If dosing is needed, then it has not been done.

There are on the market some little sealed globes containing some plants and a few small shrimp. These things are zero-maintenance, of course, as maintenance would be impossible. These are freakishly simple little ecosystems which actually work for several months or more. A long way from perfect, but interesting nonetheless.


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## xerxeswasachump (Mar 29, 2006)

Those small shrimp systems dont really hold up though. The shrimp slowly starves to death and shrinks as it moults. 

I am not saying i am not willing to do any maintenance. I just mean i dont want to have to do something every day to the tank beyond topping it off. I think i can handle dosing with supplements too. The thing is i want this to be done as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Dosing costs tons of money and there isnt any way around it. The thing i really dont want to do is mix 55 gallons of sea water, i can see that being a huge hassle (well when i fill it up i will, but i mean beyond that).

I don't necessarily need to buy a gimick. I would rather go with a system that actually works. I really like the idea of a big refugium with tons of little critters. I am much more fascinated by inverts than i am by fish. I would be totally fine with taking fish out of the equation entirely and just have a bunch of cool looking shrimp/crabs/nudibranchs/sea apples. 

I also dont know too much about the different kinds of corals and other life that i could potentially have. So i would like some help determining how to stock this, whenever i get around to actually making it.

EDIT: I am also a very patient person and would be willing to do this in stages. Can someone just help me outline the cost involved in setting up something that will work?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, it could cost a bundle, to be sure. The size of that bundle depends on a lot of factors, of course, such as size, stock, and how much do-it-yourselfing you are willing to do vs buying everything premade. Ready-made refugia, for example, cost a ridiculous amount of money for what they are, and you could make one yourself for a fraction of that amount, although it wouldn't be as fast or easy.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

xerxeswasachump said:


> The thing i really dont want to do is mix 55 allons of sea water, i can see that being a huge hassle (well when i fill it up i will, but i mean beyond that).



If you are lazy, Like me, You find ways to make a huge hassle into an easy task.

I bought a brand new, Clean Brute 44 gallon trash can. Dropped a powerhead/pump into it and filled it with RO/DI water from my RO/DI system. Added the salt and turned on the powerhead. Instant saltwater! I then turn on a small heater and let it stir and heat till the next day when I use it. I also have a lazy mans way of doing water changes too but have seen even better setups. lol


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

From the looks of it, you want to start up a 50 gallon.

First thing you will need to do is get a tank and build or buy a stand that can house your refugium underneath. If you are a handy man or know someone who can help you make a stand, that would be the cheapest You could make a functional stand for 50ish, but if you want it to look nice with oak trim and such it will cost you 150. It all depends on the design you use and type of wood of course. If you plan on doing DIY lighting you should also build the appropriate hood. DIY lighting would be the cheapest thing you can do. Depending on what type of corals and inverts you want to keep you can either go with pc, vho, or mh. If you plan on keeping any clams you will want mh. 

You will need to purchase a 29 gallon (around that) to convert into your refugium. To do this you will need to buy glass from your local hardware store. You can have them cut to size. This is what you are going for. Glass will cost you around 15 dollars and tank same silicone around 10 dollars. Make sure the first baffle is set up to allow room in the first chamber for your protein skimmer. Also keep in mind that you will be keeping your heater down there as well.

The next them you will need to buy is a overflow (if your tank isn’t drilled) which can cost anywhere from 50 (used) to a couple hundred dollars. If you don’t have a tank yet, I would make sure to buy a tank that is drilled. You are also going to want to purchase a protein skimmer. I always suggest the corlalife needle wheel which will cost your around 120 dollars. It is the best protein skimmer for the money

Once you have all that it is time to plumb it. You can do this a number of ways. If you don’t plan on moving your tank every I would use pvc. You will need to run it from the overflow to the refugium and then have it run back up to your tank. Depending how much gph your overflow is you will need to buy a return pump that will pump that same or close gph up to your display at the particular head (how many gph at a certain height) 

At this point you are ready to add your saltwater. Easiest way to mix 50+ gallons of water is to buy a garbage can, a cheep pump and heater. Have it mixing for a day or two. You will want your water sg to be anywhere between 1.023 and 1.025. I keep mine more at the 1.024 and 1.025 range. To test water you can use a hydrometer, but I would suggest you invest in a refractometer. Dr. Foster and Smith have one that is cheap and works well. Saltmix will cost you 30 dollars and the refractormeter 45 dollars

When it comes to adding sand there are a couple of ways to do it. You can put the sand in first and then put the water in. To do this make sure you have a lid of some sort to set on the bottom. You will have the water directed onto it so it doesn’t displace the sand. Otherwise you can do what I did which is fill it with the saltwater first. Check for leaks and any other issues. Add salt after all is good buy sinking the bag of sand to the bottom of tank and then dump it. You will want your sand bed to be around 2 inches. I would do a mix of dry sand and live sand (buy from local refer to seed other sand) Sand will cost around 60 dollars I believe for the mix.

By this time it you will be ready to add the base rock and live rock. The cheapest way to do this is buy from a local reefer. Check the forums, your club forums, craigs list, and anywhere else you can think of. You should be able to pick up liverock from them at around 3 bucks a pound. Otherwise you are going to want to buy base rock (no much life on it nor any coralline algae) and top it off with liverock, the more liverock though the better for the cycle and your tank. How much you need for your tank really depends on the rock. For fiji rock you will need about 1 to 1.25 pounds per gallon. This in total will cost you anywhere from 200 to 500 hundred dollars. Once you have your rock aquascape it the way you like then let the tank cycle. 

I hope this gives you an idea of what you need and the cost associated with them. As reefneck and theoldsalt said, the cost has many factors to consider. It will be much more if you buy everything new compared to used and you will save a lot of money if you do DIY projects. My advice to you is to read up on everything you can before you start your tank. Also check prices around the net an on the forums for both new and used items.


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## xerxeswasachump (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks a lot for the responses guys. I'll hang onto this thread for when i need to go get everything. 
I already have a tank and a 48" pc fixture, so i would rather not spend money on that stuff. But from what i hear, overflow boxes are just disasters waiting to happen. I think i'm gonna end up buying a predrilled tank eventually.

I was looking around on craigslist and saw a lot of "ready made" setups that people are selling. They seem like good deals.


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

Craigs list is always a great place to look. Try to find things used, i wish i did before i bought everything for my tank. Could have saved 500 bucks. I bought everything new and with the liverock my 20 gallon cost me a grand to set up. But looking on a local reef clubs forum i could have bought a used 120 gallon set up with liverock, fish, coral, for around the same price. So keep your eye on the net and local papers for a good deal.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Overflow boxes arent disasters waiting to happen as far as i know. If you get a decent one you shouldnt have to worry about much. But drilled tanks look better.

Hey Reefneck, i would to hear more of your lazy-man's ways lol i could use some of your tricks


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## xerxeswasachump (Mar 29, 2006)

Thanks CollegeReefer. Also, reefneck, do share you techniques.

Also, what supplements are needed for a reef setup? How much will they cost per month? 

Can someone please explain to me what a calcium reactor is and why i should have one?


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

harif87 said:


> Hey Reefneck, i would to hear more of your lazy-man's ways lol i could use some of your tricks


One of my favorites is I bought a 50' 1" ID hose and a Mag 24 pump. 2400GPH. I attach the hose to the pump and drop it in the tank. Plug it in and in less tha 2 minutes I have pumped out 20+ Gallons for my water change. I then take the pump to the other end of the hose and attach it there. Drop it into my 44G Brute can that I mix my saltwater in and pump water back to the tank until it is full. Bingo!! 20+ Gallon waterchange done without lifting a single bucket, in less than 10 minutes and hassle free. 

So basically I have my RO/DI connected to a Float valve that I mounted near the top in the side of a brand new Brute 44G trash can. This keeps that can full of Fresh RO/DI water at all times. Then I have a 2nd Brute 44G can right next to it.....I use a RIO 1700 and a 4 foot hose to pump water from the RO/DI can to the other can. Then I add salt and drop the RIO 1700 in to stir it. Plug in my visa-therm stealth heater and let it mix and heat till the next day. 

Am I lazy or what? I guess I could come up with an auto waterchanging system but then I would have nothing to do. lol


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## Bear (Jun 8, 2006)

Reefneck said:


> One of my favorites is I bought a 50' 1" ID hose and a Mag 24 pump. 2400GPH. I attach the hose to the pump and drop it in the tank. Plug it in and in less tha 2 minutes I have pumped out 20+ Gallons for my water change. I then take the pump to the other end of the hose and attach it there. Drop it into my 44G Brute can that I mix my saltwater in and pump water back to the tank until it is full. Bingo!! 20+ Gallon waterchange done without lifting a single bucket, in less than 10 minutes and hassle free.
> 
> So basically I have my RO/DI connected to a Float valve that I mounted near the top in the side of a brand new Brute 44G trash can. This keeps that can full of Fresh RO/DI water at all times. Then I have a 2nd Brute 44G can right next to it.....I use a RIO 1700 and a 4 foot hose to pump water from the RO/DI can to the other can. Then I add salt and drop the RIO 1700 in to stir it. Plug in my visa-therm stealth heater and let it mix and heat till the next day.
> 
> Am I lazy or what? I guess I could come up with an auto waterchanging system but then I would have nothing to do. lol



wow...haha, genius


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

I use the pump method as well. Even though i only need to pump out 5 gallons.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

Not a bad idea witht he pump. I use a 1 inch PVC pipe for my water changes, and once i get the siphon going it empties my tank at about the same rate as yours with pump... about 25 gallons in about 2 minutes. I love it. While that goes i do quick gravel vacs with a smaller python-type siphon. I then just dump the used water into a bathtub, turn the shower on to give the bucket a quick rinse then go to the sink and tie a rubber band around that squirter next to the faucet (do those even have names?) and let it fill while i dump in salt. I let it mix for a while with a small powerhead, then use the powerhead to pump the water through a tube into my sump... and im done. The whole thing takes about 20 minutes....

Still dreaming of the day ill be able to do a water change with only a simple turn of a faucet....


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## xerxeswasachump (Mar 29, 2006)

With my freshwater tanks i use the sink method. Just drain and refill from the sink, no buckets. If i were going to do salt water i would definitely use reefneck's system. 

I am starting to renew my hope in my freshwater planted tank. I still want to go salt though. It is just hard to commit though. I'm 23 years old, just got my first real job after college, and i don't know where i want to end up. I know that reef tanks take years to really mature and i dont want to setup a tank just to move it again. 
My freshwater tanks are much easier to move and/or sell if i needed to.


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