# Planning for my future and I need help.



## ThatFishKid

This is actually fish related, but I had NO idea where to put it:

This is my last year of high school, and I'm fine tuning my plans for the future so I know where to go with my education. I plan on a degree in zoology, but more specifically I would like to study ictheology. That is, after all, my favorite part of this hobby: observing fish and learning about them. I will eventually plan on getting a PhD
My problem is, From what I can tell, most careers in the field of ictheology or zoology aren't generally high paying (30k-ish per year). 
What I'm trying to figure out is what i can do with my education to possibly better my income, but more importantly, what career opportunities could i pursue that would be able to support me, my hobby, and _eventually_ a family?


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## emc7

I knew someone 20 years ago who put himself through college selling cichlids, but most people need a job to support their fish habit. You have to predict which professions will be in demand 4+ years out. Its not easy. As soon as someone identifies a demand, too many schools start programs in it and flood the market by the time you graduate. A 4 year biology degree is good for pre-zoology, pre-med and pre-pharmacy, but you'd need to get top grades while competing against the pre-meds. Engineers can get still get good jobs straight out of school, but only the top schools count anymore.


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## COM

I can guarantee you this: you won't make a good living in anything to do with aquaria unless you work for a major manufacturer like Spectrum (Tetra, Marineland, Jungle, Perfecto, etc.).

If you want to do something related to animals and make a lot of money, I can think of two career paths:
-If you're telegenic (aka good looking and speak well) you could be a documentarian and make films / programs about cool animals or fish. You'll need to go to school for communication or broadcasting for this.
-If you're not telegenic or generally not into cameras, try for veterinary medicine. Vets earn, if I'm not mistaken, an average of $200k or so a year. Will that be sufficient?

For either career, your key right now is to get into the very best college you can and go, even if it means that you will have to take out some student loans. Fortunately, the best schools are now offering no-loan financial aid even to students from families with fairly hefty incomes. I assume from your age that you are still in high school. A common trap for high-achieving students is being lured to lesser schools by "merit aid scholarships." If you're offered one, regardless of what you are going to do, take the yearly amount of the aid and deduct it from what you can expect to earn each year for the rest of your life. You're simply helping the college market itself as more than it really is and you'll be footing the bill forever.


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## ThatFishKid

hmm....veterenary medicin looks like an option, although it would take a lot to get there.
It really stinks that you can never have the best of both worlds. I WANT to have a career studying aquatic life or animals in general for my whole life, but I just can see how that would bring in sufficient income with the cost of living nowadays.


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## TheOldSalt

I don't thinkit can be done.

30k-ish? Wow. I've never seen any fishy job that came anywhere close to that unless it involved sittting in an office all day, far from any fish. Well, I take that back; I did almost wind up at Long Beach once @ 33k, but in Long Beach, 33k is what the kid flipping burgers down the street at Burger King makes. That's another major consideration to, er... consider. Most fishy jobs are in very high-index areas where whatever you make is not worth much.
Biology degrees aren't worth much, either, really. There's just too darned may people holding them, and they all wind up having to compete against the PhD's who usually wind up working for peanuts just to be in their field of interest. 
Personally, I went the zoo/aquarium route, but that didn't pay enough to let me keep doing it. Next year, when my house is paid off, I'm seriously planning to go back to school for my teaching degree and just be a High school Biology teacher. They're very much in demand, ya know. ( _because they can't KEEP them_ )


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## Kyoberr

I know exactly what you mean. You could have a high paying job that you at least sort of like and then have fish for a hobby.


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## crazyfishlady

What about taking some business courses and opening up your own pet shop? It's crossed my mind and my husband could build the custom acrylic tanks and stands,;-) muahahahah!


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## emc7

> your own pet shop?


Road to bankruptcy if what I've seen around here is any indication. Something like 5 or 6 stores have closed in the last 2 years that I know of. 



> build the custom acrylic tanks and stands


this looks more profitable. The amount of $$, that businesses pay for stunning salt-water display tanks seems to leave a decent margin over raw materials cost.


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## crazyfishlady

Yeah, I know the smaller pet shops aren't doing too well at all. Especially with the way economy is right now. That's why I also considered getting my own Petsmart but thier pet selection really sucks. I would want to do all different types of fish and saltwater as well.  I like more of the rare types of fish.


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## ThatFishKid

mhm. I'm starting to see I'd be better off in all ways if I just studied fish on my own, and just looked at some other degree/ career path....


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## Manthalynn

Keep this in mind...biology is sort of a catch all degree. Most people that go anywhere with a Bio (or zoo) degree end up going on to grad school. 

Biology departments are also usually impacted (meaning full so hard to get into) because anyone going on to med or vet school is in them. There's nothing wrong with going into Biology if you're up for the challenge and think you can keep up with the weeder classes (freshman classes that intentionally set the bar super high to weed out the people that aren't as serious). I contemplated Biology, and I could do well in it, but honestly, it isn't worth the work for me. 

I'm currently studying crop science with the intention of going to grad school for plant physiology with the end goal of going into research. It probably would have made more sense for me to be a Bio major and might have helped me get into grad school, but since I only have 5 more quarters (2 more years) in crops and it would take me 3+ years to finish a Bio degree at this point, I'm sticking with crop science.

Here's a consideration for you: if you don't know what you want to major in yet, sometimes it can be cheaper and just as fulfilling to attend a community college for the first year or two to get some general ed classes out of the way and figure out what really floats your boat. I started out right off the bat studying math and physics so I never had room for the GE classes. While I had a 3.5 GPA, it didn't really excite me that much, so I switched around a couple times and wasted soo much time and money. Let's just say physics classes don't transfer very well into a horticulture degree.

But on the other hand, I'm glad I went to a 4 year university my freshman year so I could enjoy the experience of dorm life and college life.

I offer all this as one point of view, not neccessarily THE WAY to do things.

Hope that helps! Good luck!

Oh, and one last thought, I bet genetics is going to become a really big field in the future, if it isn't already. That might help you in your fish hobby...I know I'm interested in the genetics of my mollie coloration.


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## ThatFishKid

Manthalynn said:


> Here's a consideration for you: if you don't know what you want to major in yet, sometimes it can be cheaper and just as fulfilling to attend a community college for the first year or two to get some general ed classes out of the way and figure out what really floats your boat.


this Is what I plan on doing anyways. I had spent my whole life (which, come to think of it, hasn't really been that long) looking forward to a career as a field biologist or something of the sort. It sickens me to my stomach to think that it is coming down to a numbers game like this, and money is what will stop me from doing what i love. I'm trying to wipe the slate clean for now and logically search for a career in the field that would at least get me a reasonable income.


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## jones57742

ThatFishKid said:


> I plan on a degree in zoology, but more specifically I would like to study ictheology. That is, after all, my favorite part of this hobby: observing fish and learning about them. *I will eventually plan on getting a PhD** My problem is, From what I can tell, most careers in the field of ictheology or zoology aren't generally high paying (30k-ish per year). *
> What I'm trying to figure out is what i can do with my education to possibly better my income, but more importantly, what career opportunities could i pursue that would be able to support me, my hobby, and _eventually_ a family?


TFK:

Folks around here are tired of listening to this but I will spend the time in order to elucidate.

You are aiming way short of the mark here with your undergraduate education and possibly with your thinking at your age.

The toughest disciplines out there with the least number of graduates at our major universities are chemical engineering and physics. Physics is very broad based whereas chemical engineering is not.

A degree in Physics associated with taking most of the math courses required for math majors and the remainder of the electives in your discipline of choice with an overall GPA above 3.5 (at a major university) will open tons of doors for you which upon graduation as well throughout most of the remainder of your adult life which would otherwise be unavailable.

*Should you decide to pursue graduate school along about the time the folks who are reviewing your application note your undergraduate education, your GPA, your GRE score (which will easily be 1300 to 1500) and the university where you matriculated:
little or no discussion will occur,
all hands be raised and
your application will be dropped into the "Send Out Acceptance Letter" basket!
(But please note that this is where the fun really starts as you will be competing against some of the best in the World.)*




ThatFishKid said:


> this Is what I plan on doing anyways. I had spent my whole life (which, come to think of it, hasn't really been that long) looking forward to a career as a field biologist or something of the sort.* It sickens me to my stomach to think that it is coming down to a numbers game like this, and money is what will stop me from doing what i love. *I'm trying to wipe the slate clean for now and logically search for a career in the field that would at least get me a reasonable income.


*Not necessarily.
You are correct about the field folks. Due to my familiarity with Mule Deer and Lesser Prairie Chicken conservation efforts on a ranch in SE NM I am aware that very good field Phd's who are employed by the NM Fish and Game as well as the US Department of the Interior are very low paid.

What you may not be aware of is that folks who are good enough to (or want to) do research at the major universities receive significant grant monies and are not in the "low pay" bracket but these folks are few and far between.*

TFK:

You are at the point where you can decide to be one of the bulls to be turned back out with cows or one of the steers to be sent to feed lots with respect to the work required associated with your education affecting the remainder of your life.

Only you can make that decision.

TR

Hopefully I have provided some view of what the path looks like based upon my experience.


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## emc7

Hm, I wonder what a Physics degree is worth now. When the bottom fell out of aerospace with the budget cuts in defense spending around 19990, Physics degrees were mostly worthless and a lot of schools dropped their programs. Only GE lighting was hiring bachelor physics majors. All of the bachelor of science degrees were only stepping stones to phds back then. But I don't see how we can transition to "green energy" without more grads in basic physics and engineering. There are always jobs for the best of the best. The 4.0 students from the hardest schools. Its all the bottom third of the class jobs that have gone to India. If you do what you love and are better at it than anyone else, you will have work.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> Hm, I wonder what a Physics degree is worth now. When the bottom fell out of aerospace with the budget cuts in defense spending around 19990, Physics degrees were mostly worthless and a lot of schools dropped their programs. Only GE lighting was hiring bachelor physics majors. All of the bachelor of science degrees were only stepping stones to phds back then.


em:

Somehow you are "hooked onto only the learned concepts". The problem solving behavior which is acquired is probably more significant than the concepts which are learned.

In the mid 70's NSF funding went to zero and female Phd's who were EEO's but who were nowhere as good as many undergraduate seniors were becoming assistant professors.

You also appear to be focused on traditional career paths which physics does not limit one to.




emc7 said:


> ... and engineering. There are always jobs for the best of the best. The 4.0 students from the hardest schools.


A little knowledge of simplistic math and the ability to learn information will get you into the engineering profession but this knowledge and ability is "way down the road" from understanding the basics of nature and the derivations thereof.

I believe that I said 3.5 or above.




emc7 said:


> If you do what you love and are better at it than anyone else, you will have work.


Ah ha! Ah ha!
That is the door which is opened!

TR


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## akangelfood

A friend mine has a Masters degree in physics. He was working at a top rate company, making an incredible salary. But sometime around 5-6 years ago, the company went under and he found himself delivering pizzas for two years waiting for another opportunity in his field. Sad but true, demand has to be taken into consideration, and even that may change.

My own educational experience is similar to Manthalyn's. I spent two years working toward a BA in business administration. I held a 4.0 GPA (no joke). But I hated it. So I took some time away from school and in the job market to figure out what I really want to do with my life, and am now back in school for nursing. Just like in Manth's story, those business classes really don't apply to my nursing degree. Start out with your GERs, and pay attention to what interests you. You can also talk to an adviser at your school in conjunction with aptitude tests to find out which positions in your area of interest are feasible. Best of luck to you


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## emc7

I'm actually about 1 year shy of a bachelor physics degree, I gave up on it when the fact that none of my graduating classmates could get a job, met the facts that I couldn't afford the next semester and my family had moved across the county. I agree with you that its a much better education than engineering. I helped MEs and EEs with their homework, it was easy. The MEs took 2 years to do statics and dynamics that we learned in 1/2 of one semester. I learned the math in my physics classes before we had it in the advanced math classes. 

I miss it though, it was much more fun the computer stuff I eventually graduated in. Thus, my musing. It is worth my while to go after an MS in Physics?


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## akangelfood

emc7 said:


> It is worth my while to go after an MS in Physics?


Though you said "it is", I'm going to assume this was actually a typo, and that you meant it to be a question. If that's not the case, ignore my next comments  IMHO, yes, if you can afford to. You may even consider pursuing it as a part time student while you continue to work. My reasoning is that it will make you more desirable among a pile of applicants in future jobs (even those that do not require physics degrees). It's hard to say where the job market is heading, and I know the projections vary with the professions in question. However, most markets are growing increasingly competitive. Additionally, having that degree will leave more options available to you in the future. It sounds like physics is what you love. If a job opportunity were to present itself, you'd be missing out by not having completed your degree. As you know, an "almost" degree doesn't show up on a list of position requirements  

Absolutely, emc7. If you are able to at this point in your life, go get 'em tiger! If now is not the right time, then at least keep your dreams in mind in when the chance arises.


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## COM

emc7 said:


> It is worth my while to go after an MS in Physics?


I'm in the job market right now. I have a BS from a prestigious school but I'm finding that almost all of the well-paying jobs in my field (Marketing / Sales) now are demanding an masters, MBA or equivalent. I think it is probably worth it to go ahead and get a Masters in Physics if you are so inclined.

Myself, I'm thinking about going to get an MBA overseas at Oxford or Insead. Their programs are much more global and less US-focused. And they only take one year instead of two.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> It is worth my while to go after an MS in Physics?


em:

No!

The BS with a GPA above 3.5 from a major university is what opens the doors.

Any graduate work should be at the doctoral level.




akangelfood said:


> My reasoning is that it will make you more desirable among a pile of applicants in future jobs (even those that do not require physics degrees).


ak:

I am still not doing good with my words here. The "pile" is to be in front of you 10 to 15 years (or more) down the road with folks wanting to gain from your experience, etc.

TR


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## emc7

Yes it was a typo. Thanks for the responses. I don't know what I'll do. I think that jones may be right that in the hard sciences its phd or nothing. Maybe i'll take the GRE for kicks. Sorry for thread hijack, kid. Just because we are older, doesn't always mean we know the answer. 

My advice is go to the best school you can afford and get the best grades you can, even if you need tutors, or to borrow instead of working. But as to how to choose a career, I'm still working on that one.


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## TheOldSalt

Not to scare you, but I have three, count 'em three, degrees, two in biology, with a 3.95 GPA. I was 11th in my class.

I work at Walmart.

Biology degrees are worthless unless you have a pretty face and a great rack. Think about who does the hiring in that field and it'll make perfect sense.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> Just because we are older, doesn't always mean we know the answer.


TFK:

The arrow went right straight through the center of the red donut with this one.

What we can do is provide insight based upon experience which would otherwise not be available.

TR


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## COM

emc7 said:


> My advice is go to the best school you can afford and get the best grades you can, even if you need tutors, or to borrow instead of working. But as to how to choose a career, I'm still working on that one.


My advice is go to the best school you can get _in_ to. If you really can't afford it, the best schools now offer no-loan financial aid. If you are determined able to pay (or rather your parents are), and you still can't, there are tons of student loan options to explore.


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## ThatFishKid

Thanks a ton for the advice. I think I'm going to stick to what I want. I'm still going to need to do a bit more research on the specifics of the degree I'd want to get, but I'm going to stick to the same field of interest.
My college plan is a bit drawn out with some loose ends, but I'm going to Perimeter(community college) to get through my core classes cheaper and to get the feel of things, then I'm transferring over to UGA. My original plan was to, after UGA, go to UHI at Oahu, but i don't think that's very realistic.


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## emc7

If your going for a phd, what you bachelor in isn't that important, so you might as well do what you enjoy.


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## ThatFishKid

I know, but I do still need to decide (for both.)


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## emc7

Get the UGA course catalog and try to get an idea where the courses you'd enjoy are concentrated. Internships look great on your resume and can you a feel as to whether you are on the right track.

Finally, don't panic. It feels like you should decide now, but if you change your mind, you will still be fine.


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## tigerbarbgirl

If you have a passion for zoology and more specifically ichtheology and that is what you want to study...perhaps you could become a teacher or professor in this area? Teachers don't always make much, but I think college professors are kind of well off. Not only could you always be studying your passion, but you could share your passion with others. 

This is what I may be doing eventually...I want to teach elementary, but at the same time I LOVE psycholgy, everything about it interests me, so what I kind of have a goal for is to eventually get enough education in psychology and maybe teach pysch classes at a community college at night or during the summer. 

Anyways, hopefully this was helpful 

Oh and don't forget that most families usually survive off of joint incomes so pick a girl thats smart and has a good career making lots of money


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## jones57742

ThatFishKid said:


> but I'm going to stick to the same field of interest.


TFK

I will try this one more time and then I will shut up.

Please listen to the words of TOS as he has been down the path where you are headed:


TheOldSalt said:


> Not to scare you, but I have three, count 'em three, degrees, two in biology, with a 3.95 GPA. I was 11th in my class.
> 
> I work at Walmart.
> 
> Biology degrees are worthless unless you have a pretty face and a great rack. Think about who does the hiring in that field and it'll make perfect sense.



The path is Physics with your electives comprised of most of the courses taken by the Math majors and the remainder of courses majors in your field of choice.


I will attempt to hammer this home with two hypotheticals (which are just examples of what will be reality).

You are sitting in front of an entrance committee and the following questions are asked (they will be because any candidate can answer the typical ones which are learned during the standard course work in your field of choice):

*Mr. TFK:

We have reviewed your research concerning marine life near the MidAtlantic Rise.

We know that you are familiar with plate tectonics and the periodic reversal of the Earth's magnetic field but what do you believe causes this reversal and how do the effective interactions affect your conclusions?

Can you please explain the statistical significance of your conclusions?*

Four years of majoring in your field of choice will go down the tubes in fifteen minutes of interviewing.

TR


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## Manthalynn

ThatFishKid said:


> It sickens me to my stomach to think that it is coming down to a numbers game like this, and money is what will stop me from doing what i love.


Someone already said this, but I'll repeat it. I've heard (so not 100% reliable but worth looking into) that some of the top schools (Yale, Harvard, etc.) offer wonderful scholarships for low income students. I read an article that said with those type of scholarships, it might be cheaper for low income students to attend a traditionally expensive school rather than a state school where scholarships and grants are harder to come by.

Here's a financial aid story for you from my own experience: I never applied for financial aid my first 4 years of college (long story as to why). I didn't take out loans and I didn't get any scholarships or grants. Now that I'm back in school, I had to take out some loans my first year to suplement my income (which had dropped practically to zero). The FAFSA looks at last years income to determine your grant eligibility and since I had worked full time last year, I wasn't eligible for anything. So I took out a small loan. Next year, since I haven't worked much, I'm expecting to be able to get more grants. 

But here's the clincher. I'm in the College of Ag and there are more scholarships available than students to take them. I knew a girl that received a total of $25,000 in scholarships because she applied for several. I thought, No one is going to accept me for a scholarship! So I almost didn't apply. But last minute I applied for two $1500 scholarships...and won both of them. That's $3000 for 1 hours worth of work. From what I heard only 6 people applied for one of the scholarships. Ridiculous! That one only required a 1,000 word essay! Anyone can take 15 minutes and write an essay if it will earn you $1,500!

So I learned that, hey, it's easier than you think and way worth applying for scholarships. Don't be afraid to try for scholarships and grants (you don't have to pay these back) even if you think you won't get them.

And to agree with Emc, yes, when I was a physics major, I always learned my advanced math in the physics classes and then the next quarter learned them in the required math classes. That's why I decided to double major because I practically had to take all the math classes for my physics degree anyway.

And in regards to advanced degrees, I had an internship with Stanford this summer so I got to pick the brains of all the Ph'd candidates and professors, etc. All of them echoed that in the hard sciences, don't even consider a masters. Masters are pretty much just full of coursework and it looks to employers and phd programs that you aren't really serious. And if you start work on a Phd (why can't I spell that today!) and find you don't like it, you can finish early and most likely get a masters out of it. Rarely can you expand a masters program into a phd program.

And a bachelors can be important in helping you get into your phd program. But after you've received your phd it probably doesn't matter...

I want to recant saying that I wasted time switching majors. Maybe academically speaking I wasted time, but in regards to what I learned about life, it was not a waste.


Good luck, TFK! Hope I didn't confuse you more!


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## Maztachief

I know this is a relatively old thread, but, I am premed, getting a bio minor and anthropology degree. I've heard from both counselors and orthodontic surgeon brother-in-law (oral and maxillofacial surgery) that what it is usually advantageous to not major in what everyone else is if you go pre-professional. You tend to not stand out very much from the bio/chem folks who may be applying to medical/vet/whatever grad and professional schools. So maybe if you pick the minor you want, but a complementing major in a related but not as common field you will have not only a better idea of your own interests but allow you to have a sort of back-up career. 

Also, I noticed skimming along that somebody mentioned getting an internship. Internships and research with professionals at universities are awesome opportunities that can go a long way in terms of helping you get a job later. If you are able to get a good relationship with professionals who are well known in their field you can get recommendations from them which will be way valuable. Good luck, just my two-cents.


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## COM

Manthalynn said:


> Someone already said this, but I'll repeat it. I've heard (so not 100% reliable but worth looking into) that some of the top schools (Yale, Harvard, etc.) offer wonderful scholarships for low income students. I read an article that said with those type of scholarships, it might be cheaper for low income students to attend a traditionally expensive school rather than a state school


This is a new and transformative type of aid: No-Loan Financial Aid. The top colleges (all of the Ivies and Ivy plus schools are involved now) will give grants for tuition and no loans for students up to varying income levels. They can get pretty high. Check it out if you're college bound. You might be able to go to one of the most prestigious schools in the country for free!


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## TheOldSalt

Wow! That's awesome.
I had to hustle my way through by shooting pool, writing pulp fiction and delivering pizza. Ah, those were the days... Anyway, there was always lots of money out there to find if you looked, and now I guess there's even more. That's good to know, too, since I'm considering going back again next year for yet another degree. I think I need to get into something a little more recession-proof, like teaching.


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## mrmoby

ThatFishKid said:


> hmm....veterenary medicin looks like an option, although it would take a lot to get there.
> It really stinks that you can never have the best of both worlds. I WANT to have a career studying aquatic life or animals in general for my whole life, but I just can see how that would bring in sufficient income with the cost of living nowadays.


It is difficult to find a career that is both well paying and is something you love. I think those that find the combimation of the two are few and far between. I spent a lot of time and money getting a degree, only to find that I liked working on cars and trucks as a hobby, not as a profession. 

The same can be said for where you want to live. I moved here because I wanted to live here, and love living here, but it certainly puts limits on careers and income.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever considered a career in pharmacy? It is not an easy degree, but there is plenty of biology and chemistry. The income is high, work is plentiful almost everywhere, and there is very strong demand. In a world full of layoffs and downsizing, pharmacists are still calling their own shots. 

Just an idea. Thought I would throw that out at you, as I NEVER heard any career counselors suggest it, and can make for fantastic employment.


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## smark

What about marine tectonics. I wonder what a job like that would pay.
Oil company's, The Marine Corp, Nasa and others are interested in what’s happening to our planet at all times.


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## fishboy23

If you're certain you're willing to go after the PhD in zoology, you could well look into being a university professor. Depending on the university, you may get your own lab, grad students to help you research, and a couple classes to teach. I know several PhD's who teach, believe me, none are hurting too bad for money. 
The Vet path is a tough one, simply because it's so hard to get into. I'm on that path myself, and not getting in, even with really good grades, is a real possibility. Experience in the field is key to getting in. There's only 28 vet schools in the USA, so spots are limited and extremely competitive. 
One word of caution (kinda addressed above). Be careful using your hobby as your job. You will very likely burn out. I know, you think "oh, not me" but it happens, really it does.


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