# Calling Toshogu



## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I don't appreciate some of your comments in the Gen freshwater forum, thread titled "i'm a newb, just would like some advise". I'm moving the discussion here so as not to hijack the thread. 

Toshogu, I don't understand your overly emotional response. You act as if I have challanged your manhood. I guess you just can't stand the thought of possibly being.... well, wrong. The thing about it is... I have never said you were wrong. I just asked you to temper it a little. Be a little more balanced. The very idea that I would question your vast knowledge... But wow... you can't handle that! Tosh,I have been very nice to you. I have complimented your posts. I have even suggested that one of your posts might be worthy of being a sticky. What do I get in return? You have accused me of questionable methodology. You have suggested that I have a limited understanding of the cycling process (this I might add, may very well be true). You have suggested that I have an admitted problem with science in general. You have accused me of "following your posts like koi poop" (don't flatter yourself).... I also don't appreciate your suggested foul language. Please remember that this is a family forum. Toshogu, if you want to be civil and act like an adult then let's let this end here. If not and you want to have a battle, then bring it on. I'm willing to match my knowledge, understanding and experience of this hobby with you any day, my young friend!!!


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

"This is a great thread Tosh.* Please don't taint it with this Stability thing again*. I am pushing to get this thread as a sticky. Lots of people may be reading it in the future. *At least say it MAY POSSIBLY jump start your biofiltration*. This stuff is not the panacea that you still seem to think it is. It's not just Stability... all of the "bacteria in a bottle" products have a mixed track record."

This is what set me off. You've pretty much followed most of my posts about Stability with some type of negative remark. And this is pretty much the last one I'll tolerate from you. Like I said, I am finding a gosh darn microscope and I'm gonna look at the buggers to put this to rest once and for all. From what I understand if the bacteria present in stability looks identical or close enough to the bacteria found on my biowheel in the 50gal. And the undergravel in my 10gal. The question as to whether or not it is effective and works should be proved atleast beyond a resonable doubt.

Even YOU questioned your methodology during the experiment. Complaints of Ph going below 6 and a very old bottle! Your experiment proved nothing aside from the fact that cycling 4 tanks with a low PH is a pain in the arse.

What I don't like is that you are casting doubts on what I know through first hand experience. "At least say it MAY POSSIBLY jump start your biofiltration" <- This really ticked me off. 

*I KNOW IT WILL JUMP START YOUR BIOFILTRATION!!!!*
How do I know this? 2 tanks cycled with Stability myself. 8 tanks cycled with stability between my friends. cycling finished within 1-2weeks. Now I admit you can't call this scientific proof that it works 100% of the time. 
But it's darn good enough proof for me to say "yes it works as advertised" "Yes this product worked for me". Cause honestly I don't have the money to run a full blown study. that would require a minimum of 50tanks and a double blind setup. 

And now that I look at it some more, I know why this really bugs me. What you say really really smacks of "Creationism". Half ass methodology, crack pot science. "At least say it MAY POSSIBLY jump start your biofiltration" is like trying to get me say "Evolution is only just a theory and Creationism is just as valid". Nothing bothers me more than Right Wing Creationists that want to bring religion into our schools. Scared the hell out of me when the keynote speaker for the last RNC said *"the constitution guarantees the freedom of religion, not the freedom from religion."* You want to see what happens to a country when the religious right gets a hold of a country, look at IRAN. Ass backwards, second world country. 

What was I ranting about again?

idk. Eitherway, I've tolerated your monkey picking long enough ron_v. If you got problems or questions about fish I'll never refuse you help. But if you want to cast doubt, and nay say expect me to defend what I know to be truth.


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## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Cycling is for lazy wimps


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Oh my..... Tosh, I think your level of maturity is showing again... its actually kind of funny!


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

cycling is for wimpy fish


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm having about as much fun with this as you are ron_v. Especially since you're 63yo and not long for this world. I'm 28 and full of piss and spit, the world is my oyster. Atleast until I'm your age and find that Social Security was used up by your generation. lol


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Is it just me, or should this conversation be held via PMs?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I agree bml...until he calls me out in public. That's why it is in the water hole forum. I didn't want to disupt the other threads.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

And since I'm ranting here.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

This may not be law, it may just be some fancy writing. But for me The Declaration of Independance is the living breathing soul of what America was, is, and always should be.


It has taken this nation, us as a people a very long time to begin to understand the meaning of these words. It was only what? 140yrs since slavery was abolished? 90yrs ago women were given rights? 60years ago since the nation was desegregated? Just this year that we elected our first non-white president? Tho we have made these great strides as a people we have yet many that still wish to deny thier fellow citizens of the basic fundemental tenants of this great document to continue to treat people like they are unequal.

The people who deny the right of marriage to the gays. You deny them to thier god given right to happiness.
The people who oppose Universal Health Care. You deny the poorest of our nation, the Right to Life & Happiness. (Cause it's kinda hard to be happy when you're very ill and not getting treatment.)

Anti-Abortion keep your nose out of other people's business. A woman has a right to choose what happens to her Life. If she's underage, then guess what parents need to be notified. But then again places where they do have that law, they have higher instances of teen suicide, and abandoned babies. Also let's say we do make abortion illegal. What do we do with all these unwanted babies? Throw em into the orphanage? and let the system take care of em? I live in Los Angeles, and if you've been reading the papers the system out here blows goats. Just in the last year we've lost 2 children to system oversight. They slipped through the cracks and died. Imagine how many more kids are out there right now in the system getting the crap abused out of em. Not enough to kill em, but sure as heck enough to make sure that they are damaged goods for the rest of thier lives. Probally already clogging up our juvinile court system and on thier way to being great career criminals. Better mercy to let them not exist then to let them suffer thier entire lifes.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

This is getting ugly, so of course I absolutely love it. Stir the pot, people...

I have noticed quite a few overly enthusiastic posts about Stability from a few people. I myself have raved about similar products in the past... The thing that bothers me about the Stability devotees is precisely the idea that it is a panacea, good word. I have heard it touted as a cure for everything from ammonia poisoning to ich to algae. I guess it really couldn't hurt, but it is marketed with more than a whiff of, "We're smarter than you so just use this and don't ask for an explanation as to why it works because, as we said, we're smarter than you and you couldn't possibly understand the components and the process used herein so don't ask just buy it or you're an old fool."


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Good point COM. Exactly my feelings. I think that Stability does work at times. I even believe that Tosh is telling the truth about his experience with the stuff. I have gone so far as to recommend it on this forum. The problem that I have with Tosh is that he touts it to every new hobbyest as a 100% sure thing. And now it has become a personal thing with him and he is standing beside his computer doing backflips he is so mad with me. I think tosh is pretty smart and he knows a lot about this hobby. He could be a asset to the forum. He just needs to settle down a little.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

oh and those people known as the "Birthers" I don't know what the heck you've been smoking but last time I checked. So long as a mother pops a squat and the baby flops onto American soil it's American. Or at the least one parent is a citizen at the time of your birth. I mean Jesus, does the idea of an outwardly black looking man incharge scare ya so much you have to stoop to anything just to see him out? Am I calling "Birthers" racists. Yeah I am. Oh here is a good one. 

For you to mull over here. Senator John McCain a good man. Born on a US Naval Base in Panama. Is he a citizen yeah, but I'm sure if I decided to throw all logic out the window I can make a pretty good case as to why he shouldn't have even been allowed to run for president.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Ah but here is the thing I have never touted it as a panacea

I have only said it is good for one thing and one thing only. Jump starting your cycling proccess. Being able to have a stocked and cycle tank within 1 to 2 weeks. Keeping your fish from dying if you mistakenly wash all your gravel and filter in tap water.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

lol, ron thinks I'm mad =)


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Tosh just has 20 more min to kill befor 8pm hits and he can go out clubbing with some friends.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

+ if you don't understand something I'm not gonna sit down and explain it every time. It's up to you to do the initial research. Learn about the cycling proccess, understand what the bacteria do. Research the product you are interested in. And if with my recommendation if you believe that this is the course of action to take do it.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Thats good tosh. I just hope you don't have a stroke in the next 20 mins.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

It's like old people and computers. The ones that are inquisitive and play with the things read and educate themselfs on how to use it are the ones that keep em running and have the most fun with em. The ones who look at it, don't bother to do any research on how it works, what it does. They end up thinking it's magic, and either a.) don't like em. b.) have so many viruses on em that thier grandson has to come over and wipe the thing clean from scratch. Teach em how to use it again, and how to use virus protection software, ignore him and just keep doing it over and over again.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Birthing.... Racists... John McCain. What are you talking about? Tosh I really am worried about you.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

? why would I be worried about stroking out? you're the grandpa =)


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Like I said i'm killing time 10 more min to go. Figuered I'd rant cause there ain't nothing better to do, and you're not much of a conversationalist. More of a commentator, you know, a useless talking head, kinda like the ones you see on FOX news


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

nvm I'm gonna go brush my teeth, see ya all tommorrow


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Well pet lovers.... I think we have before our eyes....a complete meltdown! Now he is talking about virus protection software. Does that have anything to do with cycling bacteria... Maybe he is right. I'm getting too old. LOL


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

darn teethcleaning didn't take as long as I hoped. Either way, maybe it's been along time since you heard a person go on a rant. Hell i even stated I was going to rant like a couple posts ago. Maybe you've just forgotten what it's like to have fun.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

HEE, hee hee. Tosh after the things you have said about me tonight, it's kind of fun watching you make a complete idiot out of yourself. I know, I know.. I should be ashamed of myself.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't know what John McCain and birthers have to do with anything else.

As for Stability and its proponents, Tosh included, you all know that you have recommended it for a variety of threads here with little explanation.

As for the intelligence of those who question Stability's claims and the smokescreen of "we're smarter than you," not to brag, but, try me. Someone tell me exactly what it is, give me a *hint* as to what keeps the bacteria live. It may be in the realm of 'trade secret' but it isn't worth much. Sorry, as much as we might like to imagine it, this is a small hobby and no product is worth much in the grand scheme of things. It wouldn't be worth it to spend the R&D money to reverse engineer the product, so just tell us what we're dealing with.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

This is the weirdest thing on this site so Ill be the moderator before I head off to bed:
Ron_v: I can see where Tosh is coming from, hes definitely a well educated person, but being like me in some ways, he is hard headed and testosterone filled from being in his 20's lol (All we really care about is getting some tail and being manly) Its not a bad thing and at least what he says isn't wrong, although it is repetitive, but thats sorta what these forums are, the same people coming in and asking more or less the same questions.
Tosh: Ron has an argument as well, it does seem that every other one of your posts has the word "Seachem" in it and I would be lying if I said it didn't annoy me a little bit as well, not be to mean but you sort of seem like a typing billboard add sometimes. If you go by what you said somewhere else, if things like seachem, biospira, dr.tims one and only, etc are just bottle of bacteria, then really all of them should work, its up to the person cycling to make sure it works. So it might actually be better for you to do a very quick synapsis of how to cycle (maybe just throw a hyperlink to a synapsis in there?) instead of just always saying buy seachem.
In the end you both pretty much said rude things to one another, and its apparent that neither of you are going to back down. In the end though this argument is really because typing on the computer is very impersonal and things can be taken out of context and construed to mean different things than they were supposed to be. I'm sure if you two were in a room having this conversation it would have been much more civil and gone a lot smoother. Its probably best to just do the ol' guy thing, punch each other in the mouth, get up, shake hands, and move on like nothing even happened. 
There is my psychiatric spin on this now LET THE SMACKDOWN RESUME!!!!
oh and tosh... your freaking crazy haha

Man F*** my internet!! I had to try to post this like 6 times!! If there is one thing I hate more then Ron_v and Tosh its my F'ing internet!! Jk your both delightful.. now Bluecray on the other hand..


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2009)

and i thought i was nuts!


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
makes me feel kinda sane..i really don't care for infighting..i much prefer things to be peaceful..
but i do have to agree that constantly telling folks to run out and buy stability can get pretty annoying...i don't even do that with the Plecocaine...and i sell the stuff..
but ; if everybody thought the same thing ; then nothing would be learned....we would never move forward..
but ; i have to behave myself as i don't want to get banned for starting trouble...blue cray can attest to that..lol..
while we all will have disagreements ; i don't feel it right that one should assume that they are the only one that is right and insult the other..there is always more than one way to do something..


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

bleh, night ended early cause date had to much fun =( I hope people realize that I'm not taking any of this seriously at all. That's half the fun of going on a rant. A good stand on a soap box and declare moment.

rant = to speak or declaim extravagantly or in a bombastic manner or violently.

I was going for the bombastic or extravagantly.

Either way I'll keep on promoting the use of Seachem Stability when someone asks about cycling and doesn't know what cycling is. Cause how I see it is, it's the easiest way to keep thier fish alive, and hassle free.

ron_v will keep following up my posts with declamations and nay saying.


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