# Mbuna cichlid question



## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

As some of you may know, im a perfectionist and this thread may go on just as long as the other one i posted. But i just need some feedback on the stock list and also im wondering what other fish may bo compatible and how many. Then my final question is what substrate,plants,and decorations would be suitable for my fish.

My stocklist so far:
Synodontis multipunctatus "Cuckoo Synodontis" - Small:3
Pseudotropheus acei "Msuli" - Juvenile:5
Pseudotropheus saulosi - Juvenile:4

This will be in a 55gallon tank, filtration will be rated for a 70 gallon tank and above no matter what filter i pick

EDIT: i added 2 more cuckoos
EDIT: im stupid and put 70 gph and instead of rated for a 70g tank


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Honestly I think your stocklist is very good which is unusal because most newbies come up with wildly inapropriate fish to put together. A few things to add though. 

1) in a mbuna tank it's generally accepted to stimulate the rocky enviornment which they come from. Decorate with a ton of rocks to give hides for the fish. Rocks are also a great natural way to raise the ph of a tank. It really dosen't matter which types. It's personal prefrence. You can add plants that are durable like java fern, anubias, and vals. It's not super common to use plants in a mbuna tank because they are herbivores and will eat most types. The ones I mentioned should be fine. Sand is a great substrate to use but you can really use any type. I would go with sand or crushed coral though.

2) the acei are fine but I would add more salousi for they are dwarf cichlids and don't grow as big. Also, add more of the synos for they like to be with eachother. I would have 4 synos and like 8 salousi.

3) in the long run 70gph ain't going to cut it! My tank has around 1000 gph pumping. To overstock for mbunas you must over filter. If the fish are really small you might have time but 70gph ain't much.

4) feed them a diet high in sprinula for they are herbivores. You can feed protien but no more than once a week for they can catch the dreaded malawi bloat and die. It's mostly caused by poor diet ie too much protien.

I think this tank has very good potential good luck with it! And have fun! Mbunas are very entertaining fish and will keep you locked to thier little aquatic world.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

actually ; mbuna are not herbivores....they are omnivores..and awfwuchs feeders.....
lots and lots and lots of rocks..stack em up..1/2-3/4 of the tank...
leave the lights on to grow lots of algae...
mbuna tend to do much better and have fewer beat up tankmates when they are a bit overcrowded.


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

aufwuchs is a plant it's like algea. Yeah technically they are omnivores but thier diet is mostly plant material.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

so what other fish might go well with the mbunas? im looking for maybe a green fish, since i already have so much black,blue,and yellow. Maybe some red also


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Typically you only want to keep mbunas with other mbunas. The will kill typical communit fish because of thier aggression. You won't be dissapointed by the color trust me.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

sorry bout, that it was almost 3:00 at night, i meant to say what other mbunas could i get, that i would only need to get 2 or 3 of

EDIT:Would i be able to add say 2 or 3 red empress's's's's's or Melanochromis joanjohnsonae?


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

plant wise how about Hygrophilia difformis "Water Wisteria" and Cabomba pulcherrima "Purple Cabomba"


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

I think the plants you mentioned should be fine but it might get dug up. Again mbunas like alot of plant material so they might eat it. If you want more than 2 species then I would only get like 4 salousi and get something else like an afra or yellow labs maybe. Thier are so many types out there. Rustys are good too.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

rrcoolj said:


> 3) in the long run 70gph ain't going to cut it! My tank has around 1000 gph pumping. To overstock for mbunas you must over filter. If the fish are really small you might have time but 70gph ain't much.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> In srry about that, i meant rated for a 70g tank or better, not 70gph


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

rrcoolj said:


> I think the plants you mentioned should be fine but it might get dug up. Again mbunas like alot of plant material so they might eat it. If you want more than 2 species then I would only get like 4 salousi and get something else like an afra or yellow labs maybe. Thier are so many types out there. Rustys are good too.


Would i be able to add say 2 or 3 red empress's's's's's or Pseudotropheus socolofi "Powder Blue Cichlid"?


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

im trying to cut costs so i can actually get these fish so i was wondering if i could do pitbull plecos instead of cuckoos and could i replace the saulosi with 5 Pseudotropheus socolofi?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Woah first descide what you want to get. Just pick 3 species tho and work the right ratios(1m 3f).


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

rrcoolj said:


> Woah first descide what you want to get. Just pick 3 species tho and work the right ratios(1m 3f).


yah srry bout those multi messages. i forgot just to edit one. So a summary is im trying to cut costs. So i edited my stocklist,heres the new one.

Synodontis multipunctatus "Cuckoo Synodontis" - Small - Small:1
Pseudotropheus acei "Msuli" - Juvenile:5
Pseudotropheus socolofi "Powder Blue Cichlid":5

Now if i can sex them at whatever store i get them from i will do a 1:3 ratio for male vs. females per species.

EDIT: i switched plecos because my dad didnt like the looks of it as much(he hates plecos)as this one which he found at least bearable, and also he didnt want an 18"fish once it was fully grown


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

List looks good and you can add a third species if you want. You might not be able to vent them if they are small so I would just but s bunch of juvies and grow them up. Then sell off extra males and buy females if needed.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

does any body know any online stores driftwood and decorations like the ones in this tank?
http://www.cichlids.com/tank-pictures/pic/55_Gallon-39.html


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I wouldn't pick two fish in the same genus in the same color family. There is too much change the most dominant male will breed with all the females or prevent the others from breeding. I would go with all the same fish or something with a different color and genus such as yellow labs. Or go with a bachelor tank of all males each of a different species.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

emc7 said:


> I wouldn't pick two fish in the same genus in the same color family. There is too much change the most dominant male will breed with all the females or prevent the others from breeding. I would go with all the same fish or something with a different color and genus such as yellow labs. Or go with a bachelor tank of all males each of a different species.


oh really? ill pick a different species then if i can for one of them, i was just trying to save my parents money while having easy to keep fish that are also peaceful so i wasnt really thinking about them being the sane species. Also if i did decide to do the bachelor tank would there be multiple of each species of males or just 1 of each, and would you mind if i pm'd you with the species i picked if i do decide to?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

lol, peaceful and cichlid don't belong in the same sentence. They will chase each other all day long. Its better to have different species for each male, as some males will still go after males of their own kind even in the absence of females. Personally, I'd go with like 8 or 10 of the same fish, as that will spread out the aggression. Pull any fish thats getting its tail chewed on. BTW the p. acei are much more peaceful than the socolofi. They also like driftwood, which is unusual for a mbuna. I have a friend who swears hers watch TV. They come to one end of the tank only when the TV is on. You can PM me if you want, but I don't have alerts set and only see them when I log onto the site to read the posts, anyway.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

you just destroyed my whole basis of thought, now i have no idea what fish to pick.....darn...i was thinking of Melanochromis johanni, but i also want to get a second species. any ideas?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

johanni and socolofi might go. They are both mean as sin and no fish in its right mind would confuse the two.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

so like 5 of each, 1:4 ratio males to females?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

ideally, yes. You may have trouble telling the socolofi females apart from the males.


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

I agree and disagree with emc7. Yes socolofi are more aggressive than acei plus they are in the same genus so I probably should have said you should avoid similar looking fish because of hybridization problems. But I still believe you could keep both species in a tank. If you have a suffecient number of each fish they won't bother eachother all that much. I have yellow labs with socolofi but they both keep to themselves. I would still look for different fish. I would go with yellow labs and acei. That's a very common very successful combination. Or yellow lab and demasoni. If you still want the blue and purple keep acei and get cobalt blue zebras.

The best and most accurate way to sex a fish is by venting looking at thier underside.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

rrcoolj said:


> I agree and disagree with emc7. Yes socolofi are more aggressive than acei plus they are in the same genus so I probably should have said you should avoid similar looking fish because of hybridization problems. But I still believe you could keep both species in a tank. If you have a suffecient number of each fish they won't bother eachother all that much. I have yellow labs with socolofi but they both keep to themselves. I would still look for different fish. I would go with yellow labs and acei. That's a very common very successful combination. Or yellow lab and demasoni. If you still want the blue and purple keep acei and get cobalt blue zebras.
> 
> The best and most accurate way to sex a fish is by venting looking at thier underside.


i would really like to stick with dimorphic fish, like the johanni, for ease of sexing and color variation. So on that note are there any fish that are dimorphic that would work with johannis?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Acie would work but they aren't dimophoric. If you want dimophoric fish that don't look like johanni I would look at the "afra" subgroup. Females are dull, but males are ver vivid. Or you could do an all Johanni tank.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

i just checked them out and theyre beautiful but theyre a lil too expensive and theyre much smaller than other species, and at this point bang for ur buck is pretty important to me


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

how about Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra" and Melanochromis johanni


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

I can't see why not but thier not dimophoric.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

the "most accurate" way to sex fish is not by venting......it is by dissecting.........


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

lol, true, but we want our fish alive, which i cant manage cuz im not a vet nor a surgeon

EDIT:what is venting


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

rrcoolj said:


> I can't see why not but thier not dimophoric.


http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1730

its states they are here, and there is a difference in the pictures


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

i need to fine a bottomefeeder that wont outgrow a 55g,is good with mbuna, and cak be kept by itself because i just found out that with cuckoo synos you should keep multiple and im on a budget and cant afford that


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

lots of people keep armored plecos with mbuna. Even though they are from soft, amazon water they seem to do well.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I would just get 8 P. saulosi, then you have both blue and yellow in one fish.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

is there anything else though i could add to have a more colorful tank with the saulosi?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

First off you have to undersand that the original red zebra from the lake have blue males and red females. But we have bred a rare red male almost exclusively in the U.S especially the "cherry" red. So unless specified, the males are going to be red. Speaking very generally of coarse.

A dimophric species with solosi? Why not do msobo they are larger and still dimophoric.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You might try one male hap-type like a red empress or peacock, but he'd need some open area (the tops of strawberry pots are good). Some hold there own with mbuna nicely, others get shy around so much activity. I would only do that with milder fish like saulosi or acei, not with melanochromis.

I don't think larger is better. IMO the metriaclima/maylandia like M. lombardoi and the zebras should go in a 75g. They work out fine when small, but eventually you get a large, mean one that abuses the other fish and needs to be removed from a 55. If you do get bigger mbuna (I think I better including socolofi here), have a plan for occasional rehoming.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

alright ive decided i want to do an all Melanochromis johanni tank. It will be a 55g. So how should i go about this?

1.How many?
2.Should i get a bottom feeder?If so what kind and how many?
3.Plants and decorations and substrate?what?
4.Anyother special needs regarding diet or anything else?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

At least 6. 8 or 10 would be better. 
not necessary, a little algae on rocks looks authentic
java fern is ok, but rocks are a must. Lots of real rocks (cheap) or fake like "cichlid stones" ($). Sand is great, but gravel is also fine. So is crushed coral or limestone or dolomite.


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

emc7 said:


> At least 6. 8 or 10 would be better.
> not necessary, a little algae on rocks looks authentic
> java fern is ok, but rocks are a must. Lots of real rocks (cheap) or fake like "cichlid stones" ($). Sand is great, but gravel is also fine. So is crushed coral or limestone or dolomite.


I agree

Also feed them a diet high in sprinula. It will usually say on the container. OR get something for herbivorous fish. I use sprinula flakes and pellets. You can also feed the occasional brine shrimp like no more than once a week. ANd no bloodworms. Also be careful not to overfeed. A good rule is to feed them for no longer than 30 sec 2-3 times a day.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

im doing 10 johanni, could i do 1 Spotted Raphael Catfish since it's armored and will fot my water and size parameters?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Yes they would be fine but I would aim fro a syno like eupterus or decorus.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

and why would that be better, out of curiosity

EDIT: do johanni and/or raphael dig in the sand because if i do choose sand as my substrate it would make my life so much easier so then i don't have to rake the sand for bubbles


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Raphael come from more acidic water. Synos like hard water and are well cabable of defending themselves against an aggressive cichlid.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

not all species of synodontis are from the rift lakes..most are riverine fish preferring more acidic conditions...
eupterus will get 12 inches or more and like to be in groups..decorus will get more than 15 inches...a bit too big for a 55 gallon tank full of rocks and mbuna.
i think multipunctatus might be a better bet as they don't get any more than 6 inches..


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

multis and petricola are great fish but are very exspenseve and they like to live in groups. I've never heard of decorus and eupterus getting bigger than 8-10in but IDK. Nevertheless both do very well with african cichlids. Plus they can defend themselves very well. Raphael will probably work just fine. They also have spines.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

hey, just one quick question. Since im doing a one species tank should i just have 1(1;9 ratio) male and all females or should i break it up into maybe a 1:3 ratio having 12 johannis?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Well I would buy like 12 juviniles and get rid of excess males and aim for maybe like 3 males and 8-10 females. Realize though that a subdominant male might not show his color as well but he will bring out the color of the dominnt male.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

since males and females look different shouldnt i be able to tell when i goto buy the fish and pick them out so i ONLY get 3 males and 9 females?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i will try to post a couple of pics of my syno eupt and decorus..they are lousy pics but will give you an idea....

these were taken about 4 or so years ago....top fish is decorus..at that time he was almost 13 inches..last i saw hime he was almost 16"
other pics are eupterus..i had 17 of them..the smallest being 9 inches and the biggest 13"....you can see the females bellies bulging with eggs..they would spawn all the time; but with a tank full of vacuum cleaners ; there were no survivors....


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

nice fish, but i think i will stick with the raphael due to simplicity. but does anyone have an answer to my previous question?

"since males and females look different shouldnt i be able to tell when i goto buy the fish and pick them out so i ONLY get 3 males and 9 females?"


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Dominant males look different. juveniles, females, and non-dominant males can all look alike. If I were you I'd pick only one that looked like a male. Odds are you'll also get a few males that don't look it, depending on their age.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

can anyone post a pic for me of a non dominant male? so im just picking 1 obvious male then all females and hope that i dont get a nondominant male, if i do, do i return and get another female or what?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Wow I've never seen eupterus and decorus that big! And you've bred them too another hard thing to do so I've heard. I guese there's no better teacher than experience huh. A subdominant male will most likely look like a faded male or female johanni. Sorry I don't have any pics.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

thats cool, but how bout the second part of my question?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 29, 2009)

Yeah you can return the fish. If the fish are really small then just buy like 12 of them and sell off the extra fish.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

sorry to bring this up again but i was wondering if somehow i could have more than one male. i mean the reason i picked johanni was cuz theyre dimorphic and they have amazingly vivid male colors. And i know it may cause problems but is there a way i can have more than 1 male?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

if you have a big enough tank with lots and lots of rockwork ; you can have 2-3 males with 6-9 females..i used to breed mbuna species in 40 gallon long tanks..i used undergravel filters with dolomite substrate..then the tank was filled to the top with tufa rock...i would keep 20-30 adults in the tanks...lights were on 14 hours a day..nice thick carpet of algae on the rocks and sides and backs of the tanks...nobody got beat up or killed...just lots of colorful fish having lots of babies...


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

lohachata said:


> if you have a big enough tank with lots and lots of rockwork ; you can have 2-3 males with 6-9 females..i used to breed mbuna species in 40 gallon long tanks..i used undergravel filters with dolomite substrate..then the tank was filled to the top with tufa rock...i would keep 20-30 adults in the tanks...lights were on 14 hours a day..nice thick carpet of algae on the rocks and sides and backs of the tanks...nobody got beat up or killed...just lots of colorful fish having lots of babies...


so what would the gameplan be for a 55g tank?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Do the same as loha. a 40L is just a short 55. Lots and Lots of rocks. Unless they are big and old, I would pick all but 1 that looked female. If you pick 6 males and 6 "females" you will most likely end up with 11 males. Start with 8-12 and they will make more for you. Pull any with chewed-off tails and keep them in a 5 until healed. Odds are they will be fine if you start with enough. Its when you only have 3 or 4 that thing get bloody.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

so i should pick all males and 1 female? im slightly confused


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

No all females except for 1 male. males can look like females, but females don't look like males.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

But if i wanted more males would i simply buy 3 obvious males and 6-9 females and return any that turn out to be nondominant males and replace them with females? then also would i have to heavily cover the tank with rocks?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

what emc is trying to tell you is that you should pick 1 obvious male and 11 that all look like females...
a subdominant male will make himself look like a female..so if you get 11 female looking fish ; it is likely that you will get a couple that will turn out to be males..

as for the tank...use whatever kind of filtration you like..just make sure that you are filtering at least 500-600 GPH......NEVER....i repeat....NEVER go by what the filter manufacturers put on the boxes.."rated for 75 gallons"...but only pumps 300 GPH..that is only good for a 20-30 gallon tank.
go to your local landscape supply and get the smallest crushed limestone they carry..(usually #10)if they have smaller than #10 ..get it..you will need about 75-100 pounds..should only cost you a couple of bucks...you will have to rinse it several times..
get lots of rocks..enough to almost fill the tank completely...lay some down on the bare bottom of the tank..then add the gravel..then start piling the rocks..do not stack them neatly..it looks like some kind of manmade crap..just pile them up..just make sure they are pretty stable..once it it all set up turn on the lights and leave them on for a week or so.get some algae growing...the only place you don't want algae is the front glass...
here are a couple of pics of a 30 gallon i have a few years ago..the pic of the entire tank was right after i set it up..later on it was completely filled with rocks..


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you are hoping for 6 "males" and 6 "females", forget it. You will only see 2 or 3 dominant (nice colored) males in a tank that size. Additional males will look 'washed out' or like females no matter how many you have.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

i just want 3 males not 6

EDIT: and loha, what are those big holey rocks? and would sand be acceptable or should i stick with limestone?


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

isnt my dad so resourceful? lol

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/beginner-freshwater/26492-used-tank-keep-bacteria-living-till-christmas.html

EDIT:how well would a True Actinic 03 Blue T5 Fluorescent Light and a ColorMax T-5 Fluorescent Light work for my tank? and they are by oceanic systems


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

the lights should be fine...will keep the algae growing and show the fish's colors..
the rocks are what is known as tufa rock..prehistoric limestone...i used to sell it but haven't had a chance to go get any for the last couple of years..
when i was keeping rift lake cichlids ; the only rocks i would use would be tufa...nd the only gravel i used was dolomite...dolomite is crushed limestone...these will buffer the water to a PH of about 8.4 or so..pretty much perfect for rift lake fish...
i have no clue as to why everybody thinks sand is so great in a tank...especially since it tends to have poisonious gas pockets form after a while..for the most part;as far as i am concerned; sand sucks..and it doesn't do anything to benefit the fish..
but as i always say...your tank....your money..do what makes you happy..


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

1. Would it be possible to do like 6 male johannii and say six male Metriaclima lombardoi or six of some other species? 
2. Another option is it possible to do an all male johanii tank?
3. And final question is what are some johannii compatible mbuna that would work for the first question that are any color besides black or blue?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you do six of the same fish in male, you won't have 6 pretty males. If you want to do all males, better to 1 or 2 of each species and have a lot of variety.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

just out of curiosity why wont they be pretty?


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

How about this list?

Metriaclima lombardoi "Kenyi" - Small Juvenile:2
Melanochromis auratus - Small:2
Melanochromis johanni - Small:2 
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra":2
Melanochromis joanjohnsonae - Small Juvenile:2
Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red" - Juvenile:1
Agamyxis pectinifrons "Spotted Raphael Catfish":1


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

They won't be pretty, because only dominant fish are pretty, the "come mate with me" color scheme. Other males will have the "please don't kill me" color scheme.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

so how about the stock list?

EDIT: alright, so i have five stocklists. What im gonna do is post all of them and you guys can pick the best one and critiquie and such. And suggestions for ratios of each fish would be appreciated.


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## FishontheBrain (Aug 7, 2009)

List #1(all males)
Metriaclima lombardoi "Kenyi" - Small Juvenile:2
Melanochromis auratus - Small:2
Melanochromis johanni - Small:2 
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra":2
Melanochromis joanjohnsonae - Small Juvenile:2
Aulonocara jacobfreibergi "Eureka Red" - Juvenile:1
Agamyxis pectinifrons "Spotted Raphael Catfish":1 

List #2
Melanochromis johanni - Small:12
Agamyxis pectinifrons "Spotted Raphael Catfish":1

List #3
Pseudotropheus acei "Msuli" - Juvenile:5
Pseudotropheus socolofi "Powder Blue Cichlid":5
Synodontis multipunctatus "Cuckoo Synodontis" - Small:1(any suggestions for catfish other than this?)

List #4
Pseudotropheus socolofi "Powder Blue Cichlid":5
Synodontis multipunctatus "Cuckoo Synodontis" - Small:1(any suggestions for catfish other than this?)
Melanochromis johanni - Small:5

List #5
Synodontis multipunctatus "Cuckoo Synodontis" - Small:1(any suggestions for catfish other than this?) 
Melanochromis johanni - Small:5
Metriaclima estherae "Cherry Red Zebra":5

If you havent noticed ive included some time of pleco or bottomfeeder in all of my lists, are they required for anyother purpose besides being a bottom dweller?


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