# Plants browning



## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

Hello all,

I haven't kept plants in quite some time, and would definitely consider myself a newby. Here is my question. I have all my propogation tanks on my back patio where there is approximately 12 hours daylight. 6 hours are shaded, and 6 hours direct sunlight once the sun makes it past the patio cover. All of the plants are growing well, and the mosses and riccia are constantly pearling. This is where I run into my problem. Even though the riccia is pearling, the older stems are turning brown and soft. New growth is very heavy, averaging about a cup a week of harvest at this point. Water is completely changed once a week from a mix of fish aquarium water and dechlorinated tap to try to keep nutrient levels high from the severe growth level. I am not using any fertilizers at this time, and would prefer to keep it that way if at all possible. I would be willing to consider it if someone can provide me with a reference which states this would solve this problem. Most information that I've found online about fertilizers seems to be commercial, and claim their particular chemical is the be all end all of plant problems though (which is more than enough reason to be skeptical).

Thanks,

Larry Vires


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

pleco_breeder said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I haven't kept plants in quite some time, and would definitely consider myself a newby. Here is my question. I have all my propogation tanks on my back patio where there is approximately 12 hours daylight. 6 hours are shaded, and 6 hours direct sunlight once the sun makes it past the patio cover. All of the plants are growing well, and the mosses and riccia are constantly pearling. This is where I run into my problem. Even though the riccia is pearling, the older stems are turning brown and soft. New growth is very heavy, averaging about a cup a week of harvest at this point. Water is completely changed once a week from a mix of fish aquarium water and dechlorinated tap to try to keep nutrient levels high from the severe growth level. I am not using any fertilizers at this time, and would prefer to keep it that way if at all possible. I would be willing to consider it if someone can provide me with a reference which states this would solve this problem. Most information that I've found online about fertilizers seems to be commercial, and claim their particular chemical is the be all end all of plant problems though (which is more than enough reason to be skeptical).
> 
> ...


Pearling means that they are using the Co2 and making O2, but that doesnt take into account the nutrient deficientcy they are experiencing. I'm not going to search for a reference to support this, but I'll say that whenever you get plants turning brown, it's either a light or a nutrient problem. If your not adding ferts then I can almost be certain there lies your problem. If you are planning to grow plants, you need to feed them, it's that simple. There are less expensive ways to buy ferts then the comercial stuff. Greg Watson used to sell them but has past the torch onto Allan at www.AquariumFertilizer.com He is a plant guy as well and will steer you in the right direction with the proper ferts needed. If you search some older threads on this topic you'll find a little more about whats needed. But these are your big 4 : KNO3 (potassium nitrate), K2SO4 (potassium sulfate), KH2PO4 (mono-potassium phosphate) and Plantex CSM+boron. I also dose FE (Iron Chelate). With these you have the bases for great plant growth with the proper lighting. You can also goto http://rexgrigg.com/ferts.htm and read a little there. www.thebarrreport.com is a good source for knowledge as well as www.theplantedtank.com

Hope this helps.

Zig.


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

Thanks,

It had been so long since I posted I was starting to worry that I had done something to make everyone avoid my posts. 

I'll check over the sites you've listed and try to find something that works.

Thanks again,

Larry Vires


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

I saw that girth answered your question and I had nothing to add at the time. Girth is pretty good at this plant stuff


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

Sry you had to wait on a answer. I haven't put a post down on this site in awhile. But you're in very capable hands with Damon. I'm just a part time poster nowadays  I started to branch out and do more then keep planted tanks, for some reason unbeknown to me I decided to start breeding africans  :withstup: 

BTW Damon. I looked into shipping you off some of my Ludwigia Repens and because I dont have a Phytosanitary Certificate they will just get trashed at the border  

zig.


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

Hello, and again thanks,

I read through the sites listed this morning, and will probably never finish barrreport.com. I also emailed the fertilizer dealer about getting the necessary chemicals based upon a calculator listed. There is a bit of conflict between what barr says and the calculator though. The calculator recommends NO3 to 5 ppm whereas barr recommends up to 40 ppm??? Hopefully I can manage to get the fertilizers here soon, but am now asking for recommendations as to what levels I should be trying to maintain. Obviously, there is some degree of difference in what is working, and even the report states that there is a variable range. However, I want be successful with this and that means asking those with experience.

Thanks,

Larry Vires


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

pleco_breeder said:


> Hello, and again thanks,
> 
> I read through the sites listed this morning, and will probably never finish barrreport.com. I also emailed the fertilizer dealer about getting the necessary chemicals based upon a calculator listed. There is a bit of conflict between what barr says and the calculator though. The calculator recommends NO3 to 5 ppm whereas barr recommends up to 40 ppm??? Hopefully I can manage to get the fertilizers here soon, but am now asking for recommendations as to what levels I should be trying to maintain. Obviously, there is some degree of difference in what is working, and even the report states that there is a variable range. However, I want be successful with this and that means asking those with experience.
> 
> ...


Well to tell you the truth, there really isnt an exact level that everyone should maintain, there are too many variables. Which is why using the EI method works well. I keep my NO3 at a level between 30-40ppm. I notice I can get away with 30ppm now that I lowered my light to 3.7 wpg from 5.5 wpg. I think chuck gadds 5ppm was used as a baseline to keep above and Tom suggests a ceiling of 40ppm, which gives you a broad playing field in order to hone in what works well in your tank. I know you mentioned having a few tanks to grow and 1 tank that you plan on scaping, what size tank are you planning to use for the show tank? Have you put thought into CO2 injection or using a comercial product like Flourish Excel to provide a carbon source? Some ppl have had success with non CO2 tanks, usually small tanks under 20g, but for most of us we have to inject CO2 in order to keep healthy plants and keep algae at bay. I tried for a year with a lot of frustration to go non CO2, but I will say the quality of my plants soared aftr the introduction of CO2. Thicker, healthier stems, robust greens and reds, and after a year of tinkering and learning about my tank, keeping algae out of the tank completely, which is every planted tankers goal.
Getting back to the question at hand regarding NO3, if your livestock can hold your desired level of NO3 then the intro of NO3 is not required, however some say, that the NO3 introduced by way of dry ferts is utilized more efficiently then that produced by livestock and decaying in the tank as well the KNO3 in question also has the advantage of dosing Potassium into the tank as well. At any rate I would purchase 1 lb of the KNO3 and play around with the NO3 levels. Do you know what your NO3 levels are consistantly ranging? How often are you doing WCs and what %? This info will help figure out a good starting dosing schedule and go from there. Also what livestock will be in the tank?

Cheers.

Zig.


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

My current tanks are only 3 gallons, and being used to grow enough plants to stock a 40 breeder that is going to be the centerpiece of a spare wall in my living room. I've been looking at a particular model of CO2 injection which accepts the CO2 tanks used for paintball. That should make it easier to find somewhere to re-fill the tanks. This is still in the planning stages, but livestock will consist mostly of a large colony of as yet undecided shrimp and a small school of top/mid water tetra. Will not be a great deal of nitrate from livestock. I've also been comparing the various substrates, but haven't decided about that yet either. This is really something that I am planning for late summer when it's too hot to go outside.

The problems I'm having now are a bit more pressing as I don't want to lose the plants I have. Since posting the original question, I've been doing water changes in the outside tanks at a rate of 50% every 2 days from aquarium water. The NO3 in the tank being used as a water source ranges from 5-10 ppm and apparently isn't enough for the extreme amount of light that they are getting.

On the fertilizer site you listed, I am looking at the pre-mix since that seems to have a good mix of everything listed except iron. I know that some chemicals have the response in plants to limit the uptake of other nutrients. Is that something that I need to be concerned with when figuring the dose for these tanks? Also, iron chelate is available on the site and isn't really mentioned in what I've read today. I know that my water is low in iron (0.5ppm), but don't know what my target level should be.

Thanks,

Larry Vires


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

For your current tanks, the pre-mix would work. But if you go larger (20+ gallons) you will find it frustrating. You will want to add PO4 but not No3 at times and vice versa. Not to mention K. Its easier to buy them seperately because the needs for one tank will not be the same for others depending on species of plant (which can affect uptake rates), lighting, plant mass, substrate and co2 levels.


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

I agree with Damon regarding the pre mix as opposed to dosing separately. In terms of your FE it sounds like you're blessed with nice levels from the tap, and if you are on a 50% bi daily regimen then you are keeping that level. I would order min shipping quantities to get you through the summer a stock up when you are ready to fill the 40 breeder. I'll keep my eye out for a good deal on a CO2 reg and let you know. Much better then going the paintball route as some manufacturers use oils in the canisters which can be fatal in the tank. And the red sea units are as expensive as beer keg CO2 regs and not the same quality. Red Sea regs tend to slip over time as they use inferior parts. 
It's a lot of hit and miss for the first little while but once you get homeostasis it's worth the early frustration.


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## Anonymous (Jan 15, 2005)

It's really not all that frustrating aside from waiting on a response to order the fertilizer. It is a bit confusing since I'm used to following a "set in stone" method for my tanks. I'm sure that I'll get a routine for the testing and dosing once everything is more established. Right now, while trying to force growth, it's a bit more touch and go.

While waiting on a response from aquariumfertilizer, and the arrival of the fertilizer, is there a commercial brand that anyone would be willing to recommend for my maintenance schedule?

Thanks,

Larry Vires


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

pleco_breeder said:


> While waiting on a response from aquariumfertilizer, and the arrival of the fertilizer, is there a commercial brand that anyone would be willing to recommend for my maintenance schedule?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Larry Vires


Flourish Excel is about the best on the market, IMO.


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