# Experienced beginner!



## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi folks. I'm back after three years away from the hobby and away from this forum. . I have reintroduced myself over on the "introductions" forum so I'll dive right in here. I'm starting from scratch. I have four tanks to cycle and I'm planning to discuss my progress here. So... I have pulled the aquariums and supplies/ equipment out of storage and am in the process of cleaning everything. First of all I have realized how old I am.... Put my reading glasses down to haul out the tanks and when I sat down at the computer, realized that I forgot where I put them. Also a 20 gal tank, half full of gravel seems heaver than it used to be... Anyway, back to the tanks. I'm cleaning everything with plain water and salt. I'm planning to set each tank up a little differently to experiment a little during cycling. For example one tank will have box filters, one will have sponge and one HOB. I don't really expect anything earthshaking, but why not? I'm also using dolomite gravel in one tank. It might raise the conductivity/ PH a little. I have soft acid water and cycling is extremely difficult with low PH. I'll go back to work now and finish getting things set up. Please jump in and help me out. After all in has been three years. A little advise from the pros and questions from the newbies about why I'm doing what I'm doing.
Its good to be back.


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## N0z (Jun 3, 2009)

welcome back =D


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Welcome back. idk if you haven't seen this product yet, but check out the entire line of SEACHEM additives and chemicals. Those guys have really put out an amazing product that I wish I had when I was a kid. specifically Seachem Stability. It's a Benifitial Bacterial Culture that you add to your tank. Might help out with cycling the low ph tank. 

As for what to do with the tanks here is a link to an old post of mine, plenty of ideas on that one for you.

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/24767-getting-bored-my-tank.html


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi Toshogu. Thanks for the welcome. I'm going to look into Stability. OldSalt also recommended it. I'm skeptical but I'll see. Thanks for the "what to do with the tanks" suggestions. Actually, my problem will be to narrow my choices down to just four tanks. Soooo much out there that I want to try.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

OK. Day one is done. I have all four tanks set up and running. Three have air powered sponge or box filters and one has a HOB power filter. I have treated with 3 year old Amquel so I don't know if that did anything or not. Nothing else has been added. I had planned to add ammonia to start the "fishless" cycle but OldSalt and Toshogu have both recommended Seachem Stability. So I am going to hold off and consider that. I may experiment and do one with and one without. As I said before, I am a little skeptical but I do trust OLDSalts advice. I did a google search and did find one thing that concerns me. The folks at Seachem recommend adding Stability to your tank every month. I don't understand that. If it's used to cycle a tank, seems like you wouldn't need it after the cycle is complete. Right? What am I missing? I haven't tested my water yet. My kits are all several years old so I don't know how good they are. I'll give my tanks overnight to settle and do the testing tomorrow.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

adding seachem stability to your tank every month will not hurt anything.. the most beneficial part of that is all of the extra money seachem makes..
since you tap PH is only slightly low ; using dolomite for a substrate will take the PH up to about 8.0 - 8.4... which will be great for rift lake cichlids.. but most other fish will love the lower PH... i don't buy my dolomite from the LFS... way too expensive.. i just go down to the local gravel yard and buy the crushed limestone... crushed limestone = dolomite.... same thing when i want natural gravel... i just get #10 or smaller riverbed gravel..


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Yeah, that moneymaking thing is what bothers me about Stability. If they tell you that to make some extra money.. what else will they say??? The dolomite is some that I already had. I just put a little in the box filters. It won't take the PH up too much. MY PH is more than A LITTLE low. I'm going to test tomorrow but best I remember, it was in the 6 range. I know many fish love it, but the necessary cycling bacteria don't. The nitrogen cycle really slows down in that PH range.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It's like shampoo. Rinse & repeat. Not really needed, but it drives sales. Is it bad to use shampoo twice? It's not bad to add more stability, either. My real guess is that they assume you might vaccuum the gravel once a month, and would benefit from a quick addition of replacement bacteria.
How about trying it in one tank and doing it the hard way on the others? The results should convince you more than we ever could.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I think they recommend monthly usage to counteract the 'idiot factor.' Lots of people will do lots of things that will work against bacterial colony growth. Adding a little stability monthly will counteract that and ensure good results regardless of whatever dumb things people do, like totally cleaning out the filters, etc.

The profit for Seachem is probably a factor too.


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## Pingu (Apr 16, 2009)

Hi Ron V.

I will be really interested to see what results you get by trying different cycling methods on your four tanks. I'm new to fishkeeping and have cycled two tanks recently and whilst one took 4 weeks the other has been going 9 weeks and is only just starting to cycle. I'm afraid I'm not convinced by Stability-it didn't help to cycle my tank at all-I gave up on it in the end. That's just my experience of the product though - I'm sure others will say it worked for them.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi Pingu. I will try to document my results here. I must warn however, that my experience will likely be different than most. My water is extremely soft. Soft water does not contain the buffering capacity necessary to stabilize PH. The bacteria that we are attempting to grow during the nitrogen cycle, do not do well at a low PH. Soooo... cycling a soft water aquarium is tricky.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

As it turns out, I have a bottle of Stability. As I unpacked my box of test kits, etc. from 3 years ago, lo and behold... a bottle of Stability. So it was available then too. It appears to have never been opened and the expiration date is 10/09. Unless the formula has changed, I have what I need. I'm thinking of a trip to Petco this afternoon to pick up a handfull of fish to use as test subjects. I want to do each aquarium differently as an experiment. So how would you suggest that I go about this. What should I do differently. I have a 30 gal, a 20l and two 10's. I'm thinking this afternoon of getting a couple of fish and putting one in a 10 with Stability and the other in a 10 with nothing. In one of the other tanks, I may start a normal "fishless" cycle with store bought ammonia. Any other suggestions???


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I have added fish to two of the tanks. Three Opaline gouramis in each 10 gal tank. Each is about 2". Also added a capfull of Stability to one of the tanks. Nothing to the other. So lets see what happens.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

this sounds like it's gonna be fun


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I left the hobby for several years too. Life without worrying about water changes and filter cartridges was nice. I have no idea why I came back to fishkeeping and I'm looking forward to leaving the hobby again!

When I came back I used Bio-Spira in a refrigerated bag. I needed two doses over the first two weeks but it really worked well for me. I have read that it was discontinued, but not from any credible sources, and I know of at least two stores still selling it.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

well I will kick in my 2 cents for the Stability- amazing stuff to cycle new tanks with- no readings of anything . In an established tank being transfered with a full load of fish it settled ammonia level of 8 down to 0 in 5 days- and no casualties.
My water is very hard and has a high ph.(8.2)
I use it when I do a very thorough cleaning of gravel and filters.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi mousey. I remember you from before too. Thanks for your input. Ya'll are about to convince me... I'm trying Stability right now in a tank and will let you know as we progress.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Hmmm... nearly expired, eh? You might not get the results you would have with a new bottle. Also, make the first dose a double. Maybe it'll work anyway, but maybe your water will be a problem for it. I guess we'll see soon enough.

As for any BioSpira still in stores... you really oughta read the expiration date carefully before using. It might still be okay, but maybe not. It's history, replaced by Tetra's SafeStart.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi Salt. Do you have any suggestions on how to do this experiment. What variables. etc? The two 10"s are off and running but I haven't done anything with the other two tanks.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Well folks. Maybe there is something to this Stability stuff. Aquarium #1 (with Stability) is showing 0 ammonia 24 hours after stocking with three fish. Aquarium #2 is showing a trace of ammonia. less than .25ppm. Not a lot, but definitely a trace and a definite difference. So SOMETHING is going on. All other tests are similar. ph about 6.8, KH and GH are very low at less than 50ppm. Temp is 70F. I probably need to get the temp up a little for the gouramis. So is it possible that I won't need to wait a month before I get the fish I want? Is something in the Stability masking the ammonia test somehow or are there actually nitrifying bacteria living in my tank after only 24 hours. I don't understand this. Let's see what happens tomorrow.


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## llamas (Jun 29, 2009)

Welcome back to the hobby. Since you have the bottle of stability, go ahead and use it. But in my opinion, it is more of a money making deal for Seachem. Don't get me wrong, I love their products, but I have had my tank running for a year and I don't put any additives such as stability. I have read though that it does help to add some when you introduce new fish as it lessens the chance of the biological filtration crashing. Do you have a biological part in your filters? 

Also, did you add three Opaline gouramis per tank or one in each tank? I think that three in each tank is too much in terms of space rather than bioload. Opaline gouramis get the be about 5 inches and they will all occupy the same area of the tank. They may feel a little cramped. i would only have one per tank and maybe some bottom dwellers such as cories? 

One last thing, I don't know if you follow the "one inch of fish per gallon" rule. This rule is now very outdated. Here is a link discussing the issue. It's short, but gets the point across: http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/2483-our-view-stocking-levels-stunting-fish.html

Again, welcome back to the hobby!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

llamas said:


> Welcome back to the hobby. it does help to add some when you introduce new fish as it lessens the chance of the biological filtration crashing.
> 
> Hi LLamas. Thanks for your input. Did you notice from my thread that I am cycling a new aquarium. There is no biological filtration to crash. I am hoping that Stability will provide me with that bio...That is what this experiment is all about. As for adding Stability in the future, with new fish... that in my mind is still debatable (I can see a possible benefit). That however is a separate question.
> 
> ...


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## llamas (Jun 29, 2009)

I have no doubts that you know what you are doing. I understand now about the experiment with stability. If you start a biological filtration in your filters, then Stability would be an optional deal. Thanks for clearing up some things. Good tgo know that those gouramis will be in good hands


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I am not sure what you mean by masking the ammonia results. if you mean it is present but the Stability somehow prevents it from being read I would say no.
I have spoken on the phone to Seachem about the product because I was mystified that I got 0 nitrates at with the "cycle" or lack of cycle. After I stopped adding the Stability the nitrate level started to rise but I never got any readings for ammonia and nitrite- zip , nada.
They stated the product was obviously working as it was supposed to be.
Anyway you can check on the fish behaviour and respiratory rate to see if they are having any distress during the 'cycle'. As you remember they do get short of breathe during the process if there is ammonia and nitrite present.
I also use Prime along with my water changes. it in turn is supposed to render the ammonia and nitrite harmless to the fish but you will still get readings for them and I don't find that I can acurately add the proper amount of Prime to prevent the breathing issues completly.
probably could if I did some fancy math but can't be bothered by that nor would it make any sense to me.
will follow your experiment with interest.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Yes, you can have nitrifying bacteria in only one day.

With traditional cycling, what you are doing is trying to grow a crop of bacteria that is big enough to handle the job. You start with nothing and work your way up, but you have very precious little to start with AND a lot of the wrong bacteria getting in your way.

With Stability, you are pouring not a bit of starter culture and some food in your tank, but a large supply of the correct Nitrospira bacteria. It takes several hours to "wake up' from the dormancy, but then you are off and running. Each day you add more to build it up, and in a week you have a tank with as much established bacteria in it as you would have had after weeks of trying to grow it from scratch.

So what's the difference between this and all the other products making this claim that we've seen over the decades?

Up until now, it was not possible to keep Nitrospira alive in a bottle. We had to instead use Nitrosomanas & Nitrobacter, which are easy to keep in a bottle but not as much help in nitrification. We had to wait until these two bacteria died back and cleared the way for the Nitrospira to take hold, which finally cycled our tanks in about six weeks. Now, though, we are finally able to keep Nitrospira in a bottle and just use it in the first place, very rapidly speeding things up for us. Tim Hovanec has given us many things in his career, but this process will probably be his crown jewel.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi again mousey. I'm glad you are staying with me on this. I need all the help I can get. I'm not sure what I mean by "masking" either. I'm somewhat mystified by this stuff and I'm struggling to understand. After 24 hours there is a difference in my two tanks. That I cannot dispute. I, however am hard headed. I need to understand why. I am by trade an engineer so that may have something to do with it. Your tests showed no nitrate??? See, to me that is a red flag!!! The end result of the nitrogen cycle is nitrate. How could you have a cycle without it? If Stability is suppling the bacteria that are necessary for a cycle to occur, why no nitrate? At what point does the aquarium begin to behave normally?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi Salt. Your post showed up while I was writing mine. I'm glad you are with me too. Actually I probably wouldn't have even considered Stability if you hadn't recommended it. So now that you are here... why no nitrate???


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Salt, do you know specificlly what is in Stability? My understanding is that nitrobacter moscoviensis and nitrobacter marina are the two species that do the work. If that is indeed what is in Stability and it is alive, then that would explain a lot. Mouseys no nitrate still bothers me tho!


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Basically because the product that has a bacteria that consumes the nitrate also.
I know it is hard to fathom but after you get used to the idea you can accept it and proceed to set up all sorts of tanks without the worry of endangering any fish. I have done 5 or so tanks for other friends using Stability and there has never been any problems or readings for that matter.
As I say Once you stop using the Stability the nitrates will come back.
A friend of mine who hass a 60 gallon tank never does any water changes. 
I do not know what her secret is - I did get her to add live plants it made me feel better!
Anyway I was lecturing her one day about the fact that her nitrates must be sky hi, so she allowed me to get out my test kits and check her water.
Oh big surprise for me-- she had 0 of anything going on.
I was mystified since I do regular water changes on all my tanks and have plants but also have fairly high nitrate level.
Another person I know told me they only topped up and had not done any changes for several years.
I checked their levels too and again got 0 reading of anything.
At that point I was really ticked off because I did all the water changes and they did no maintenance at all.
I did some ( much) online reading and found that the nitrogen cycle in its complete form will convert the nitrates back into ammonia by itself under specific circumstances.- what they are I do not know but there was some indication that those particular bacteria lived in dark places and possibly were anaerobes so I suppose a lack of maintenance would cause that to occur.
All I can tell you is that throwing a capful of Stability into a tank with nitrates will reduce the levels. (I do small experiments.) 
yes I still do my regular water changes- I believe it does keep down bacteria and messy sludge depending on the fish but then my 2 friends that never did water changes did not have any disease issues either.

probably TOS has more input!!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Wow mousey. I have a lot to learn. I have never heard of a bacteria that consumes nitrate!!! Plants do (small amounts) if they are very strong and health...but bacteria??? This could rewrite all the books.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

So Hubby had a thought-- you are not actually 'cycling' because you are adding all the bacteria needed. Therefor you are not 'cycling' at all.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

mmmm, OK. But are establishing a cycle. The nitrogen cycle. Maybe we use the wrong terminology. Maybe instead of saying we are "cycling" an aquarium, we should say we are establishing a cycle.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

correct.... (because I need to type extra stuff to do a quick reply)


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Quick update: Day three. Both tanks are showing a tiny bit of ammonia. Less than .25ppm. The PH is down in both from 6.8 to 6.4. The PH issue is expected but is a concern. If it drops much more there won't be any cycle taking place and I don't know what will happen in the Stability tank. KH and Gh are very-very low (less than 50ppm). Maybe I should try to buffer the water but I hate to do that. What do ya'll think?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Throw in a 1/4 tsp of baking soda and retest the kH & pH. It is buffering, but if your goal is a stable aquarium rather than scientific data, you may need either to buffer or step up water changes. IME a TDS < 75 ppm is likely to be associated with an unstable pH and a TDS < 40 definitely will.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I've heard some substrates will reduce nitrates. Maybe by ion exchange.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Denitrification = bacteria convert nitrate to nitrogen gas. This is good. This happens in those areas of the tank where there is little oxygen.

Reduction = bacteria convert nitrate back to nitrite or ammonia. This is bad. This happens where there is NO oxygen.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

the "no oxygen" bacteria is what I know as anaerobic bacteria. Right? I didn't know about the denitrification. Is this significant? Does it occur enough to affect the need for water changes?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Actually, denitrification is crucial to the success of saltwater reef tanks, and still very handy for all other tanks. We haven't really bothered with developing it in freshwater, though, because freshwater water-changes are cheap & easy. In saltwater it's not so cheap & easy, so we had to figure out a better way. It works quite well, and yes, it eliminates the need for water changes due to nitrate. ( _ alas, there are a lot more things than nitrate building up, so we still have to change water_ )
Denitrification should be considered the actual last step of the "cycle."

Reduction is what you get if, for example, the power goes off for several hours and the flow stops in your filter, especially a canister filter. This is why you don't just reactivate such a filter after it's been off awhile; you'd only dump ammonia into your tank.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Todays results are in. PH continues to drop. Down to 6.0 in both tanks. It may be even lower than that. 6.0 is as low as my test kit will go. I need to pick up a low range kit. This is a big problem. At this point I'm probably not getting nitrification so the cycle is at a stand-still in the "no Stability" tank and in the "Stability" tank the bacteria are probably dormant. I guess I'm going to have to buffer. I expected this to happen but was hoping it wouldn't.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

TOS please remind me what to do in the event that the power goes out for several hours and I have a canister filter.
What steps should I take before I restart it?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Just rinse it out. You don't want all the gunk that has started to go anaerobic in your tank.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

ah, relatively easy to do!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Day five. Some interesting things happening. The "no Stability tank" is starting to cycle. Seems very quick so I am dudious but I have new test kits so here is what it says. PH is at 6.0 or less, TDS is 200, Gh-35, Kh-35, Ammonia-trace, nitrite-.25, nitrate-5.0ppm. 
The tank with Stability is TDS-200, Gh-35,KH-35, Ammonia-.25, Nitrite-0 and Nitrate-0.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Day six results. Tank without Stability. Ammonia-1.0, nitrite-1.0, nitrate-5.0.
Tank with Stability Ammonia-0.5, nitrite-0, nitrate- less than 5.
I don't know what it means folks. I'm just reporting the results. One thing I will say. The results seem all over the place. There doesn't seem to an even increase or decrease in readings as you would expect. These test kits are just not very accurate. I think all we can hope is for a general idea of whats going on. What I think we can say for sure is that the tank without Stability is cycling. Actually it seems to be cycling much faster that I would have thought. We are already producing significant amounts of nitrate at only six days. The "Stability" tank has shown little or no ammonia or nitrite which is as advertised. Today tho, we see a small amount of nitrate, which is a little unexpected.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

When I started my tank with stability those are pretty much the results I got. ammon never went higher that .5, n2, n3 stayed at zero. I stuck 3 fish in the tank from the first day to make sure that stability continued to have an ammonia source. Starting the second week I added like 2 fish a day until I reached a total of 12 fish by the end of it. by end of 2nd week I was reading rock bottom 0 on everything.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Thanks Tos. Its the 0 nitrates that bothers me... Mousey has been giving me a hard time about that too. I think I could get my brain around this thing if only nitrates started showing up. It would mean that Seachem has come up with a solution that has a live culture of the normal nitrification bacteria. I can buy into that. But they have to add in something that is not natural. Actually todays results do show a little nitrate. So not only is this all unnatural but my tank is not acting like everyone else.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Day 7. Normal tank w/ no Stability. TDS 130, PH 6.0 or less, Ammonia .25, nitrite .25, nitrate 3.0. Tank with Stability, TDS 130, PH 6.4, Ammonia 1.0, nitrite 0, nitrate 3.0.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

My analysis so far... The biggest difference between the tank with Stability and the one without is that I have seen 0 nitrite in the Stability tank. Both ammonia and/ or nitrate have been present in both tanks since day two. On day seven (today) there is actually more ammonia in the tank with Stability than the one without. My initial thought is that I am not convinced that Stability does anything. It is possible that the Stability is too old (as OLDSALT predicted). It is also possible tho that the Stability is partially working. I have seen no nitrite so maybe 1/2 of the bacteria team is working. I'm going to continue working with these two tanks. I may get a new bottle of Stability and see what that does. I must admit that this Stability thing has aroused my curiosity. I would appreciate your input!!!


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

woo you have n3 in th tank, you'll soon see your ammon drop to 0 and n3 is the only thing that's going to be left


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

http://www.aquatic-hobbyist.com

Darn I had just typed a letter and it up and disappeared!
So here goes again.
I just got a letter from Seachem concerning my 'complaint ' that my nitrate levels were very low in my tanks that I used the Stability in to 'establish a cycle'.
They said it is to be expected that those bacteria that convert nitrate into ? would remain in the tank unless a catastrophe occured. If I need higher nitrates I will have to add some Flourish nitrogen for the benefit of my plants.
I do find it odd that you have nitrates in the one tank using Stability. I never did get any- who knows whether it is the age of the product or if the lower ph has anything to do with it.
I know that some chemicals( eg houseplant ferts) are formulated for the "typical" water supply in north america which is usually hard. perhaps this is also true for this product.
I give you the link above only because on that forum they have a section strictly for Seachem questions.They have a rep on site. they are also very good about answering any questions on the Seachem website-- lots of info there!!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Thanks much for that link mousey. I haven't checked it out yet but I will. If a Seachem rep is there I might just join and ask a few questions. I am a member of another fish forum that specializes in Apistos and other soft water fish. I have asked about Stability there and one of the members (seems a lot smarter than me so I tend to listen) wonders if the bacteria in Stability is not a naturally occuring bug but one that has been "engineered". That is kind of spookey to me... One other thing... I have been to the forum that Seachem has set up about Stability and looked through it. They have been asked on their on forum what bacteria specifically... They never answer the question. They always evade in some way.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you want to see evasion, ask them what is in Prime.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

you never ask a magician how he does his tricks...trade secrets need to be protected..
i just ordered a large quantity of stability..i was going to repackage it and sell it at a discount ; but have decided against it as there is little market for it here... will just sell it locally to some of the clubs.
i have never tried any kind of cycling media ; but i am intrigued by this stuff.. i want to see how well it works..


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

loha, would you be willing to try it in a couple of newly set up tanks as an experiment and let me know how it works out???


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I am becoming leery of Stability. Even tho there are indications that it is doing something, I'm not sure I want something in my tanks that is unnatural and that I don't understand. Also, per mouseys experience, it's still there indefinately. I'm not normally a very patient guy but this may be a situation where I may just gut it out for the 4-6 weeks of a normal cycle.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Lol, company would never give away a trade secret. Either way don't worry about genetic engineered bugs and stuff, we have been doing that since the begining of time. You think wheat, rice and a whole bunch of other plants have always tasted and looked like what they do now? Look at guppies and any fish that has been breed in captivity. They have been selectivly breed for size, looks, and hardiness i.e. genetically engineered. When you cycle a tank you're genetically engineering bacteria that will survive in your tank conditions. DOGS!!! talk about a animal that has been heavily genetically engineered. We have breeds of dogs modified specifically for certain tasks, swimmers, sniffers, haulers, hunters, pointers, hearders, ratters, etc, etc.. We've geneticly engineered thier behavior to be key'd specifically to us. COWS another genetically engineered species.

Selective breeding is the oldest known form of genetic engineering, it's the slowest way of going about doing it. Hell, right now our wheat farmers are desperatly trying to breed a "rust" disease resistant strain of wheat before that disease hits our crops from africa and europe.

It's only been in the past 30yrs that we have been really able to muck with genetics even quicker, tho with very little success compared with our tried and true method of selective breeding.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i plan on trying it ; and i will let you know how it works out....but i don't own a test kit as i never use them..i just go by what is going on in my tanks... i am not very scientific , so i just play around with stuff..might take a little longer ; but eventually i figure things out.
i really doubt that stability is going to stay in your tank for very long..unless you never do a water change..even then;you will have to replace evaporated water at some point..each time you do a water change you are diluting what is in the tank..after so many changes the only thing left would be the proper bacteria and none of the side products..
and if you think about it;it is doubtful that a company is going to sell a product that is going to create problems many thousands of users.
if you want higher nitrates ; add fish and remove a few plants..


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Tos you are just a bit confused with terminology. Genetic engineering and selective breeding are two totally different things. I'm not worried about Stability making my ears fall off or anything. But it may make my fishes ears fall off. LOL. I just don't understand the stuff. 
Loha, if this mutant bacteria multiplies in your gravel, no amount of water change is going to remove or even dilute it.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

genetic engineering and selective breeding are just two different ways to go about doing the same thing. Modifying existing life to better suit our needs whether it be for looks, function, or taste.

Selective breeding is the tried and true takes a long time to get results close to what we want.
Genetic Engineering allows us far more control over the end product.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

some times gmo'd stuff comes back to haunt you. As a person that is suffering from celiac disease i have a bit of interest in the fact that wheat allergies are on a sharp increase in North America. North africa where the staple diet used to be millet now has the fastest rate of people getting celiac disease in the world. This is thanks to the gmo'd wheat we send to them. the protein in it is many times higher than in the original wheat and lots of bodies can't cope with it.
I also have one of those selectively bred dogs- a shihtzu. Cute as a button once you get used to the look but the poor thing can barely breathe on a humid day and has no heat tolerance.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

selective breeding and G'mod have the same problems. Most wheat on the American market does not come from Gmod stock it's mostly all selective bred. It's just with selective breeding we have only a finite amount of control of what the end product is going to be, a resessive gene 4 generation ago can pop up and do something bad.

As we get better and better at G'mod we can litterally take out the bad and replace it with good. It's just gonna take us maybe 40-100yrs before we really get a handle on it.

One thing us humans are REALLY good at, especially Americans are plants. We understand em better than anything on this earth. We can graft em, we can splice em, we can make roots grow out of limbs... G'mod will grow leaps and bounds in the horticultural industry cause we have a very good understanding of plants. Once we get those down you'll prolly start seeing G'mod cropping up in dogs, cows, swine, and chickens.

Can you imagine, one day you can own a "pure bred" dog that doesn't have all the genetic problems that are present in them today?

Or G'mod a breed of dog that are even better than the dogs now to sniff out explosives and biochemical warefare stuff.

A cure for alzetimers, and that disease that backtothefuture guy has.

Cloning is where things get really really sticky.. and when I say cloning I don't mean just a heart or lung here and there, but the creation of a complete human being.

There is a part of me that believes in striving to do so we would learn immense amounts of stuff about the human body, how it works, what breaks it, how it fixes itself. The leaps in medical technology would be near Star Trek level if we produced a viable human clone.

But on the other hand the ethical and religious issues would be amazing.
What if the clone is made not using a human egg? I would find people's arguements against evolution even more hardpressed. Would it be considered a human? Would it have the same rights as you and I?
Say if it was made using a human egg, who would own it? would it be ownable?
Would it be right for us to endow said clone with the best that everything we have? strength, intelligence, speed, charisma... etc. etc. etc...
Even worse, what if this clone was created to be a laborer?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

btw, what's them test lvls looking like in your two tanks?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I don't quite get why you guys are so worried about the absence of nitrite. The bacteria in Stability are simply getting rid of the nitrite as quickly as it forms, never letting it build up to a level you can measure. In short, its doing exactly what it's supposed to do. No worries. Maybe you're used to the old cycle where you had to first accumulate enough ammonia to grow the bacteria to make nitrite, and then accumulate enough nitrite to grow the bacteria needed to make nitrate? Well, now we don't have to wait to grow anything. It's already ready already.

Engineered? Absolutely. The whole problem with Nitrospira is that it could never before be kept alive in a bottle. Now it can be, thanks to monkeying around with it's genes. While I am certainly no fan of that sort of thing, I have to begrudgingly admit that sometimes it works. At any rate, your fish don't eat the stuff, and you don't eat them, so there is no danger even if there was something wrong with it.

As for a lack of nitrate, that could be caused by a number of things, none of which are bad. If you don't have ammonia or nitrite, then a lack if nitrate is a good thing. Lacking nitrate while having nitrite or ammonia, though, is a bad thing.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm not worried about the absence of nitrite Salt. Its nitrate that worries me.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Salt is right, no need to worry about n2 cause the stability is eating it, your ammon is going to be .25 .5 for alittle while and you know you are done when n3 shows up and everything else is 0


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

A normal cycle starts with a rise in ammonia level. Ammonia is all you will see for several days. Then nitrite starts showing up and ammonia decreases. Then at some point ammonia should be 0, nitrate starts showing up and nitrite starts decreasing until ammonia and nitrite are both 0 and you are left with nitrate which is removed with water changes. Soooo, after day 7 with Stability I had a significant amount of ammonia and a significant amount of nitrate but no nitrite. My question now is... is my tank cycled? Can I put in fish without worry of damage? Did the Stability do what it says it will do?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

i wouldn't add fish until the ammonia goes away. If it doesn't try adding another dose.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Yeah emc, maybe that's what I should do. Eventually my tanks will be cycled and I won't need to worry about this again. But, lot's of new fishkeepers ask "what should I do"? I was hoping, with this experiment, I could confidently recommend Stability. So far I can't do that. 

Day 10 results...Both tanks Ammonia-1.0, nitrate 10.0... The Stability tank is showing 0 nitrite and the no Stability tank is showing .25 nitrite.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Stability keeps the tank safe for fish, I had fish in from day one
all of em have shown no bad side effects


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Stability + Prime would make it fish safe. In this age of ammonia 'detoxifying' dechlors, its the nitrite that kills fish first.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Tos, emc ya'll are missing the point... The question is "does Stability do what it says it will do??? Claim on the bottle "Stability will rapidly and safely establish the aquarium biofilter, thereby preventing the #1 cause of fish death: new tank syndrome.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Yes!
It's new to you, but many of us have been using it for some time now, and we know that it works.
As for the ammonia, bear in mind that the Stability itself will produce ammonia as food for the bacteria, so as long as you keep adding it, you'll have ammonia. After these 10 days, you should certainly be good to go. Stop adding Stability and watch what happens.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

OK Salt, that does make sense. I stopped adding Stability after day seven so maybe the ammonia will start to go away soon. If that happens, I will feel a whole lot better about it. I will say that my fish have been fine through the whole thing. Of course ammonia has not been over 1.0 and 3-spot gouramies are about as tough as you can get. The idea of not having to worry about "cycling" is certainly exciting to me. I'm probably being hardheaded about this whole thing.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

How long should it take for ammonia to go away??? It is at 2.0 today which is the highest it has been. I am showing a little nitrite which is new.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Hmm... that is unexpected and odd, but you're right about the toughness of blue gouramis. I suppose your low pH must be having a big impact on everything, but I wouldn't worry just yet. If the ammonia continues to rise it'll be because the bacteria themselves have crashed, but enough should survive to get things going again soon enough. Wasn't this an old bottle you used? That may have been a factor in this, too.
Have some replacement water ready in case of an emergency, but don't panic unless the ammonia hits 3.0, and with a pH as low as yours, you can ignore even that for quite awhile since it won't be so much a problem.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Salt, I'm doing 50% water changes every two/three days to keep the ammonia in check. That is also keeping the PH from crashing. It is staying in the 6.4-6.6 range. It did get down below 6 earlier in the experiment and that may have damaged the Stability bacteria. My understanding is that normal bacteria are not killed at low PH but go dormant, so they should be ready to bounce back. I don't know about these "man made" bugs. LOL. 
BTW, I have started two more tanks using a normal "fishless" cycle. Again I am doing sort of an experiment. In one tank, I have buffered the water with a commercial "rift Lake" salt product. Lets see what happens.
I can see why we have so many folks with new tank problems. This is driving me crazy. I can wait to get things going and get into the hobby for real.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

hmm when I used the stablity I did 0 water changes at all because there was no reason to do them.
Must be the old product you are using or the low ph.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Mousey, I'm thinking about starting the experiment over with a new bottle of Stability. I can buffer the water to help with the PH thing. I would really like to believe this stuff works but so far I don't see it. I wish someone else would run a parallel experiment with me so we could compare notes.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

well..... since i just bought 4 litres of this stuff ;(i don't know how to do small) i am going to try a test myself...but without a test kit...i'll let you know in a couple of weeks how it works..
if i don't like it ; i will just repackage it and sell it on aquabid..


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

good! youcan collect more tanks- I'm trying to cut back


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## Pingu (Apr 16, 2009)

ron v said:


> Mousey, I'm thinking about starting the experiment over with a new bottle of Stability. I can buffer the water to help with the PH thing. I would really like to believe this stuff works but so far I don't see it. I wish someone else would run a parallel experiment with me so we could compare notes.


I didn't get the results I wanted either from using Stability. I added everyday for a week as per instructions and had to do daily water changes to keep ammonia below 1.0. Never got any nitrite or nitrate. I gave up on the Stability-it just didn't work for me.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

I can attest to that Stability worked fine in my case. Started a 50gal tank with 1male betta, and 2 females. 10% waterchanges everyday and stability used as directed, tank cycled within a week. course then again my PH is about 7.0-7.5


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Now using Stability again to start my 10gal with a ryukin in it + guppy fry. All are healthy and happy, into day 3 of the cycle and ammon = 0 n2 =.25 n3 = 0
I figuere a couple more days and it'll read ammon = 0 n2 = 0 n3 = .5 and I'm done.

BTW what's happened with your tanks? haven't heard anything from you in a while and am curious as to how things are going.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

From what I gather from various web forums and chatting up people in fish shops, it seems that Stability and products of that ilk completely work somewhere between 75 and 90% of the time.

When I came back into this hobby, I used Bio-Spira and I had terrific success with it. It was very very expensive, but partly because of me being stupid. I dechlored the water before my first dose. Then, I did a big water change and forgot to dechlor and my tank turned white as snow. I added another pouch of Bio-Spira and it was fine within about 6 hours.

I have heard and read accounts of Bio-Spira not working at all. I suspect that has to do with where it was bought and how it got to that shop. I bought Bio-Spira from a store that was managed by a guy who had formerly been the area sales rep for United Pet. He knew all the folks over there and if anyone would know how to get good, fresh product, he would. Since Bio-Spira was a refrigerated product, there are a lot of vectors to control in the shipping and distribution channel, and the pet care business isn't one that I would think is too accustomed to temperature-controlled transportation, so that is a huge red flag.

Stability is purportedly a shelf-stable product. It does seem to have close expiration dates. My concern would be that the live bacteria would eat through whatever food source was provided before the end user got to it. With a refrigerated product, it seems logical that the metabolism of the bacteria would slow down enough to make the food in the packaging last.

The internet rumor mills seem to hate all products intended to jump-start the ammonia cycle. However, they all seem to like Stability and particularly dislike Bio-Spira. In fact, a lot of them claim that Bio-Spira has been discontinued and that the scientist behind it (Dr. Hovanec? i don't remember) has been fired and discredited. However, my friend who runs the shop is able to keep placing orders and receiving product and merchandising materials. Odd...


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Honest to goodness, I have never heard of Bio-Spira, my friend Moto recommended Seachem Stability when I started the hobby again and ever since I have been hooked. Two tanks so far, and it's worked very well both times. Only fish I have lost which are 2 were due to bad stock from LFS not water quality. One guppy had a really bad fungal infection that i didn't catch, and the other was an angel that refused to eat. I'm just say, this if a product works as advertised, and it prevents unnessesary fish loss, and allows you to stick fish in from day one, go ahead and use it. If it's Seachem, or Bio-Spira i don't really care. For a new person to this hobby i think a product that can give em some room for mistakes is a great thing i.e a product that helps to stupid proof a tank. Next time i start a tank, or redo one that i have now I'll go try Bio-Spira.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi Tos. Thanks for asking about my tanks. I really have no news. The tank I added Stability to for 7 days is still showing ammonia. Nitrite and nitrate are also showing up. The tank without Stability is similar. In my opinion, both tanks are about midway through a fairly normal cycle. I'm keeping PH above 6.0 with frequent water changes. My plans were to purchase a new bottle of Stability and try again, but I haven't done that yet. The bottle I used was old but had not reached the expiration date. In my case Stability did not work. It may be because my Stability was old, but if that's the case, Seachem should put a shorter expiration period on the bottle.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Okay, hold up here... Once you have an established tank, there is no need to buy more of any bacterial supplement to set up another tank. Just use dirty filter media from your old tank in your new tank. No need to buy any more bacteria in a bottle. In fact, it is usually MORE effective to get live bacteria from a friend's tank than to buy any of these products.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Com, you are exactly right, but.... We all know that Tos is actually majority stockholder in Seachem so he probably gets it for free. LOL.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

If you can make a good product that makes my life easier, I'll tell everyone I know about it.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

LOL  i'd rather pay an advertising company tosh...if am making money on my product, i would like to compensate the people involved in the campaigning of it!  chill out dude!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Day 25. Still showing ammonia. I think it is time to concluded this experiment. I don't know any more than I did before I started. Several people on this forum and others have said that it worked for them, and I believe it. I have also heard several people on this forum and others that have said it didn't work and I believe them too. And it didn't work for me. Soooo, what to do? What to do. In my case, I will continue to struggle with my four aquariums. I am cycling in different ways with each tank. I will admit that I am getting frustrated and impatient. I can certainly understand how this feels to a new hobbyist. I think our best advice to new folks is to have patience... Not easy to do.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I would suggest trying a different product to see if any of the other "Bac in a Bottle" things work for you. I have been eager to mess with Tetra SafeStart, as it is supposedly a shelf-stable version of BioSpira at a discount.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ron...i just think that your bottle of stability was dead..you might want to get a new bottle and try it on another tank to see if it really will work for you...
having a low PH can be a pain and a hindrince but not impossible.
i ordered and paid for a 4 litre jug of stability..2 weeks passed and i heard nothing..sent 2 e-mails before the guy answered..they were out of stock and would get some in in a week..so they should have gotten it in a week ago..still nothing...i sure hope this stuff works faster than the guy selling it..


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

I have tried Seachem Stability and it has worked for me once and not worked for me the other time. Personally, I used to use the Bio-spira, which was phenomenal, until my LFS started selling something called: Dr.Tims Aquatics: "One and Only" and that stuff has not let me down yet. I feel that both Bio-spira and Dr.Tims work better than Seachem but either way the margin of difference is minimal when both work correctly as they should.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Loha, it may have been dead but was within the expiration period. So if it doesn't last that long they shouldn't put that on the bottle. Actually I was planning on trying a new bottle. I drove the 30 miles to the nearest PETCO... They didn't carry it. I drove to a small pet shop and they had one bottle. The expiration date was only a few months later than my bottle. So I didn't get it. Keep in mind... my bottle was unopened and in an air conditioned/ heated space all the time.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Is seachem stability the only stuff you can get around yourself ron v? Why don't you try something else? Is it just for the sake of your experiment? lol


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Yah, I'm curious about the other stuff out there such as 'stress-zyme'.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

my local wholesaler sells the bacteria by the gallon..i have never priced it nor have i ever tried it.. but if i don't get my stability soon i may try his stuff.

ron..almost every store gets in some stock that may takes years to sell..and it is possible that early on they thought it would live longer so they gave it a more distant expiration date..new stock may be much shorter..
on another thought....................what if you sent an e-mail to seachem telling them of your trial..and how the stability doesn't seem to be working as advertised even though it was within the expiration date....see what they have to say..they may even send you a new bottle...


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

loha, along with your advanced age comes wisdom... LOL. That is an excellent idea. I may do that. Actually I am getting tired of the experiment. I'm ready to get some fish and get on with this hobby. I'm now getting nitrate in both my two original tanks so they should be ready to go in a few days. The other two are in the middle of an old fashion "fishless cycle" with store bought ammonia. 
Tallone, emc I have always considered all that stuff snake oil!!! I tried Stability because everone raved about it. Is any of the other stuff as highly regarded?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I have another question about Stability. I wonder if after a tank "cycles" with these engineered bugs do the normal bacteria eventually show up and take over? We were talking in another thread about throwing an old sponge filter in a new aquarium and being off and running... Got me to thinking about Stability. Will it still work the same way?


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

As i said, i dont know if either are as highly regarded, I don't think seachem is highly regarded besides tosh bringing it up every other post, but i believe that both dr.tims and biospria work better


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

good point ron..i think that there is no way that the normal bacteria could be kept away..
the water has little to do with cycling..there are no nitrifying bacteria in the water itself..
nitrification is the process of chemical compounds reacting to each other..all of these compounds come from the waste of the living organisms in the water..the bacteria builds up an the hard surfaces within the aquarium.... that is why taking water from an aged tank and putting it into a new tank ; isn't going to do anything for you..but a handful of gravel or an old sponge filter will...i have done the old sponge filter routine many times...works like a charm..the only thing is that when i clean my filters ; i never rinse them in a bucket of tank water...the first sponge would dirty up about a dozen buckets of water..besides...i don't do buckets except to hold thingsi use a large python connected to a garden hose that goes directly to the drain..i do about 400 gallons of water changes each week....and since my rotator cuffs have completely separated ; i am unable to even lift a cup of coffee above my shoulder..no way i could pick up a 5 gallon bucket full of water...let alone 80 buckets..dirty sponges go into the stationary tubs and get thoroughly cleaned with fresh water...


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

At a complete aside here I am moving away from PRime as a water conditioner. For the past few weeks i have complained to hubby that I can smell burning weiners several times a day and especially in the evening. He said I was nuts until one night he smelled it too.
Anyway you know how you have lightbulb moments?:idea:
well I had this inspiration that it was the bottle of Prime in the living room that might be giving off odors. Sure enough it is the same smell as burnt weiners.
So I have removed the bottle from the living room and the odor is gone. however the basement now stinks the same.
So much for buying a huge bottle of the stuff. I am going to try a tetra product for a while.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i like burnt weiners...put that stuff outside..maybe the neighbors cat will get it...


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

well my cat doesn't like it so maybe you have a point:lol:


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Well it's been six weeks now and I thought I would update my "experiment". The two 10 gal tanks with the 3-spot gouramis have still not cycled completely. The tank in which I used Stability for the first seven days is still showing subtantial amounts of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The tank in which I added nothing is showing no ammonia. Nitrite is still showing a little and we have lots of nitrate. So the tank without Stability is about done. The Stability tank is actually behind in it's development. Keep in mind that I have soft water (very little buffering capacity) so PH is unstable. During the first week or so of the cycle, PH dropped to 6.0 or lower, Since then, PH has been kept pretty steady at 6.6-6.8 with water changes. The bacteria doesn't do well at a low PH so I'm sure the first week was not good for them. But they should be OK at 6.6. Normal cycling bacteria, as I understand it, go dormant at a low PH but survive ready to bounce back when conditions are right. I wonder if the Stability bacteria is more sensitive and maybe instead of going dormant they died off?

I also would have thought that the normal bacteria would have inhabited the Stability tank by now so that the cycle time line would at least be equal??? Why not? Questions...questions???


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Ron without doing it in a proper science lab, it would be impossible to tell you why that happened. Maybe stability contains some sort of chemical that helps their bacteria grow, but is not a good living enviroment for normal bacteria. Maybe it would be better to set your PH to 7.0 and see what happens.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I would be contacting Seachem to see what they have to say. Often if you can actaully talk to them instead of going by the "official" written version you get different answers.
Eg my use of Prazipro. The container says one treatment is sufficient but when I contacted them they said 3 treatments were actually needed.
go figure- if you can't count on the written instructions on the product where does that leave us?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi mousey. I've thought about contacting Seachem... just haven't yet. I'm about through cycling so I won't need to worry about it anymore. It's been an interesting experiment even if it raised more questions than it answers. There is no yes or no with this stuff. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't. My little experiment means nothing except that it didn't work for me. The real meaningful thing is the experience of many hobbyist. On this forum and others, many people have reported excellent results from several of the instant cycle products. Other people have said it didn't work for them. The logical and reasonable conclusion is that the stuff is worth a try but continued testing is important to make sure.... and we will never know all the answers.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

What would be an interesting experiment would be to see which product works best. Get like 6 tanks and fill them like this:
1. Nothing
2. Seachem Stability
3. Bio Spria
4. API Stress Zyme+
5. Regular ammonia or fish flakes
6. 2 fish

and see which of these will cycle the fastest. All the tanks would have to have the same equipment, lighting, temperature, and water volume and it would have to be in the same room. It would give a good idea as to which products work well.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

BML, I'm not sure you could tell even with a science lab and I didn't really expect anyone to answer the question. If you go back through this thread, you will see that the whole thing is a series of questions that couldn't be answered. No big deal. This is just my little diversion and something to talk about on this forum. I enjoy doing things like this... and you are right about the low PH being an issue for normal bacteria. They will work at the 6.6 or so that I maintained. Not as fast, but they work. The Stability bacteria may have different enviromental requirements... who knows?


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Lol I'm just bored, so I offer suggestions like this. 

Really, a test like this would need to be done in distilled, pure H20 with a PH of 7.0. It would offer the best idea, but may take a while for any method.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

BML, that is a great idea. Are you available??? I have tried to talk someone else on this forum into helping me with Stability. I would love for someone else to try this experiment with different parameters in a somewhat controlled enviroment. I tried one tank with stability and one without. Maybe someone could try one with high PH and one with low... or different temps...


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I would love to help you with that, but unfortunately I can not afford to buy a bunch of small aquariums and equipment and chemicals 

Maybe I could find some fish bowls and I could go buy a few 1 gallon jugs of distilled water from the grocery store though. My room temp should be good, since it is a bit warm anyway. I just don't have the money for filters, substrate, and the chemicals.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Actually I think I have some play sand for substrate, but I still don't have a filter or the fish bowls.

Plus, what would a do with all those fish bowls? :lol:


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

You could do a little with just two. Pick whatever parameter you find of interest and go for it. Don't mess with bowls. Get you a couple of 10 gal tanks....You have been looking for an excuse to get a couple of new aquariums...now haven't you??? LOL


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I do want more aquariums, but I don't think my bank would agree.

There was a guy on craigslist selling 5 Gallons for $5 a piece.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Don't use straight RO, distilled, or de-ionized water for fish. You would have to start with that and add a measured amount of ions. Maybe baking soda and epsom salt.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Good point. I have some aquarium salt, so I could use that. How much do you think I would need to properly support fish?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Not salt. Baking soda & epson salt as EMC said. Or easier...go to pet shop and buy a "cichlid salt" There are several brands. The intended use is for rift lake cichlids that need very hard water. You would only use a little. Or you could mix a little of your tap water with distilled... As for supporting fish... it depends on what fish LOL.... Always questions... Some of the south american fish live in very soft water so it would take much for them.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

I don't think I would want to mix tap water with it, it would give that unknown variable. In an experiment you want everything as controlled as possible.

And what is the difference between epson salt and aquarium salt?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Aquarium salt is table salt. sodium chloride. Epson salt is magnesium something (I don't remember the compound)LOL. The hardness of your water is made up of Carbonate hardness (you get that from the baking soda) and general hardness (that's where you need magnesium). The "cichlid salts" I mentioned earlier have these things plus several trace elements that are good.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Epsom is Mg Sulfate. The cheap cichlid salt recipe is baking soda, Epsom salt and marine salt (Sodium Chloride + a lot of the trace elements). The easy recipe is a SeaChem product. They have cichlid salts, hardest support for planted tanks, and mineral replacement supplements for RO water, to choose from. All of them do the same thing. If you put fish is straight Deionized water, the fish will die. Guess how I know this. A good deionzed water will extract glass and etch stainless steel.


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