# Serious probs!



## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Oh goodness, I think I jinxed myself by saying I have never had a problem in the past year with my discus, tank, or water. Cause now I have a serious one! My water parameters are perfect ph 6.4, ammonia/nitrates/nitites..all 0. I use RO water so I add a tad bit of buffer to lower the ph a bit, otherwise no chemicals. I tested them the last two days and they are still as normal. I did a water change just to be sure a few hours ago. The only thing I can assume that it might be is that the newest fish has introduced something horrible into my tank. My fiance only quarantined him a week and he seemed perfectly fine so he jumped the gun and put him into the big tank shortly after w/ all my other fish, he is one of those that has little patience and he's been looking for a blue snakeskin for a while so excitement got to him I guess when he got him.
Well tonight all my fish started acting strange, lethargic, either floating at the top, or laying gathered in a group on the bottom. Their fins are clamped at times and they basically act like they are dieing. One seems really bad off, he even looks more pale in color. There are no lesions or holes, wounds etc, they don't have white or dark scales or anything, or even a slimy film. They look normal other than their behavior and slight pale coloration, and thats only 2. My purple guy is basically barely breathing and he is pretty much laying on the bottom almost on his side, its horrible! I am FREAKING OUT! The newest one seems to be doing better than most of the others. Two others look better than the four that seem to be gathering together in a group and basically laying all over each other. I don't know what this is??? I read something about discus plague or hexamita (sp?) being diseases discus get? I am terrified if this new guy brought this into my tank are they going to die? My pair the ones that have been breeding are one of the four that are in bad shape. My purple one is barely even breathing anymore, I don't know if he'll make it til daylight at this rate. I cannot believe this is happening. Whats worse is we bought him from another LFS than the place we ALWAYS get our fish. It is a reputible place w/ nice stock but we still haven't bought anything since I had cichlids a long while back, I only get frozen foods from them cause they don't carry but a few discus at a time. He looked, acted, and ate fine for the last few days, and like I said he's still better than the rest so far. Is there medicine I can buy, and how do I know exactly what to get?? Does anyone have any clue what is happening here, I am baffled and worried to death. Not only do I really love these fish, its hard to imagine losing almost $1000.00 worth of fish in one night! 

And I have to go out of town for the night tomorrow for Thanksgiving! OH why now?? Please help if you can! I'll check in before I leave and give and update!


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

OMG Beerleader! I really dont know what it could be. I hope everything is going to be okay.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Gosh, that sounds terrible. There is another thread going on this forum from a guy that is having problems right after a water change. I'm wondering if water utility Companys put any thing in water supplies at this time of ( season change). I know they do from time to time. You said you use RO water and it seems like that would filter anything out. I just don't know. In all my years of fish keeping, my normal remedy when I don't know what to do, is a big water change. But that may be your problem. Maybe someone else will have an idea. Good luck. Do you have another tank you could put them in until you can solve this?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Do either of you have a bad cold or the flu, or have you had either within the past week? Discus are prone to catching it, too, and it affects them very harshly.

What about temperature? Have there been any poweroutages or severe cold snaps?

If it's early Discus Plague, then you must act today.
Set up a container of some sort.
Dissolve 1/8th teaspoon of Potassium permangenate powder to 20 gallons. You don't need 20 gallons, so adjust the volume you use to get the same ratio.

Dip the fish in this bath for 2 & a half minutes. ( only 1 & a half if the fish are under 3 inches long ) After that, put them in some clean new water with heavy aeration & good circulation.
This is extreme, yes, but it works, and works fast enough to actually save the fish.

If the new fish looks fine or much better while your other ones are sick, then it's likely because the new fish has already survived the plague once, and is now resistant to it.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Wouldn't it be a good idea to check with the utility Co. first????


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I suppose it couldn't hurt, but her fish got sick _before_ the water change.

Beerleader, dump that chump! Run away with me instead. _I'll_ never kill your fish!
LOL!


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Thanks so much everyone, especially you OS! I woke up and everyone is still alive and at least they are now hovering around in the water rather than all laying on top of one another. I can't say they are looking GREAT or anything but at least that is a tiny improvement. We did have a cold snap here in Ky it went from the 70's basically to the 30's overnight. I looked at the temp this morning and its a little under 80, which its usually 84, so I adjusted the heaters a bit to see if that helps. They all still look a little lethargic, just not very excited about much. Althought they are still eating ok, at least they did last night before they started laying on each other. Does anyone think I could have gotten bad food? I fed them frozen brine, bloodworms, and beefheart ****tail lastnight, and that was also too before the water change. 
I was reading about the plague and it said usually they have slime thats white, or they turn almost black especially if its a blue fish. Well all of their colors are fairly normal, maybe a bit pale but hardly much change. I am just not sure what to think it is right now? I am very glad they are alive and I hope they don't start doing the lay on the bottom thing again! I was panicking!

And OS LOL love the chump dump statement..hilarious! But I must admit I did that when I first started getting fish cause I used to be a no patience. Remember my cichlid prob where my water parameters were OUT OF CONTROL, cause I couldn't do a proper cycle back then lol, so I have been guilty myself...plus he's a good man, at least to me heheh  But seriously, I really appreciate all the response, it sure has made me feel better to know if that is what it is that I might be able to fix it. I am gonna keep an eye of them for now before I do the bath thing. 
OS do you know how I know for sure if it is the plague thing since they aren't showing all the signs yet besides hovering/laying in corners all together or the fin clamp thing??? I wish there was a tell-tale sign for it?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

TheOldSalt said:


> Beerleader, dump that chump! Run away with me instead. _I'll_ never kill your fish!
> LOL!


OK.... I've not been on this forum in a while. It's going to take me a while to get to know everyone. This quote made me wonder if I should be here at all. LOL. You see... Beerleader is not a very feminine name... I just thought..... well.l... and Old Salt is..... Anyhow, I found the members photos section and beerleader is there. SOOOOO now I understand completely. Salt, I don't blame you. I would make the same offer, but I'm getting kinda old. Beerleader, we would halfta walk instead of run.......LOL.
Hope your discus are better. Sounds like they are improving.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

thank god they look better today.. Hopefully it was the drop in temp that threw them for a loop.. I would hate for you to lose those fish!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Aw, man...too funny!

Okay, cold snap. That's good. It'll take several days to recover from it, but they will recover. 

The plague starts out with the symptoms your fish have, and then within 2 or 3 days the sliming starts.

The flu will turn them black just like the plague does, so it's important to know if the flu is a factor.

The heavy slime actually protects the plague-causing critters from the medicine. That's why the permangenate bath is used. It burns off all the slime and then nails the nasties directly. It's harsh, but very effective, and pretty much the only thing that _does_ work. 

The plague organism, even after all these years, is still a mystery. Whatever it is, it's very very tiny and only seems to affect very laterally compressed fishes like Discus, Angels, & Uarus. WHY that is is probably a big clue, but so far as I know we haven't been able to make any sense of it.

In 1986 it first appeared. "Angel Aids" we called it, and it wiped out over 90% of all the captive angels in the entire world in only a few months. Angels used to be very cheap. Cheeeep. The price shot up after the wipeout, though, and has never dropped again despite the restoration of supply.
Naturally, it didn't take long to spread to the Discus farms since a lot of angel & discus people were the same people.

I hope you never have to contend with this beast.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

LOL Man I should have picked another name hehe. Everyone thinks I am a guy  But now we know I'm not! 

Ok Update: I am back from Thanksgiving, and my fish are doing lots better. One did die :rip: while I was gone, my purple guy that I said was doing extremely poor and laying flat on the bottom. But all the others seem to be almost back to normal as far as behavior goes, besides the male that has been laying eggs. He's swimming around but still a bit sluggish. The rest are picking on one another and eating like they always did. So I am hoping it the drastic temp change outside and probably in the house that made them really go down hill. I have no noticed anyone w/ slime or any color changes etc. So I am assuming since its been 3 days now, that it isn't the plague or any other horrible beast. Although one died, he was the weakest of the group and always stayed on his own away from the others...so if anyone did die I expected it would be him, and I was right. I hope I am in the clear because that was the scariest thing ever for them to go from normal to THAT w/ no water probs. 

Thanks for all the help guys and I'll post back if anyone goes down hill again! Thanks OS for all the advice, now I do know what to do if the plague ever strikes! Although I hope it never does! 


And thanks to everyone for clearing things up about my gender haha!


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Thanks a lot! You are always so sweet! Oh and I'll check my msgs I'm horrible about paying attention to my private msgs hehe I'll look right now  Thanks!


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

wow, IM glad everyone is doing better. Sorry you lost that one though!


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Thanks Peach you guys were all so nice and helpful! Sure made it easier when I was spazzin' out hehe


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Update: I went downstairs and I did notice a white coated area on my smallest(ocean green) discus, he is also looking a bit darker than normal. So now I might retract the things are ok, and assume I do have the plague in my tank after looking at him. I did a bunch of reading on the plague and it said the new discus could have brought it in and show no signs, which is about right, cause he's always been the best out of the bunch. It says they can be carriers and not show signs themselves. It also said it affects old and small discus the most which is the truest. The oldest one is the one that died, and the smallest is now showing a weird white slime look in certain areas. 

I also read on several sites that there is no need to try treatment because it usually doesn't work, or cause more stress than they already have. They say its a virus and much like flu bugs in humans. So I guess I have to wait and let it run its course?? And in the meantime just do water changes, feed less to not taint the water, and just hope they live! Well I really hate this, and although most of the fish seem to be acting MUCH better than before, I still am not sure if I am in the clear. So I'll just pray they make it! 

And man I would like to go to the LFS and choke the lady for giving me a fish w/ the FUNK! hehehe But I guess I'll hold off, although I might let her know she is potentially selling deadly sick fish to ppl. Oh I am so furious, although its our own fault for not keeping him away from the others. 

Oh and speaking of I read that it can become airborne and move into a separate tank completely. they aren't sure if its airborne or if its dirty hands possibly taking it from tank to tank, but they say if its in one tank its almost always in the next, so if it is an airborne thing I guess there wasn't much I could do but WISH that I didn't get that fish now!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Bummer.

Well, good luck, then; you're gonna need it.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Well weird thing happened, my fiance was out at a store earlier and happened to see Tony the guy I USUALLY buy all my fish from, he's a pretty good guy w/ GREAT fish, lots of knowledge, I think a marine bio degree if I am correct. Well my fiance mentioned to him that he bought a fish from elsewhere and the probs we have. So since we've spent over a grand in his store, he agreed to stop by and check out our prob. And he even went to his store that was closed and got us some meds of some kind. Not sure what they are cause he put them in syringes and bags. But he said it definitely wasn't the plague, but he thought it was a terrible bacterial infection the new guy brought into the tank. He said the meds should help, but my male(the one that bred recently), he is looking terrible not sure if he can be helped at this point, but we're hoping. He is floating on upside down and swirls around in any moving current of water up top. Now is on the bottom laying and barely breathing so not sure if he'll live  But if they make it w/ this medicine, then he gave me something else that he said to use after a week of them being healthy that should cleanse the funk out of the tank w/o hurting the good bacteria. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed all this will work. 

And I have to give this guy props because he is usually kind of a jerk, at least he talks to ppl like they are dumb at times and used to make me very irritated. But he has quality fish so I sucked it up and always bought them from him. But after today he has redeemed himself w/ me. I guess he figured we've given him plenty of our money so why not try to help! Plus he knows now we will never shop elsewhere, and he'll keep getting our money in the long run if our fish live. Otherwise not sure if I will do discus again after this, its been heartbreaking and stressful! So I'm keeping my fingers crossed they will make it! But glad to know its not the plague after all  Thats a plus! although this infection is still HORRIBLE!


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Baby_Baby said:


> awww that reeks. Hope they get better!!!! hmm lets form an angry mob....that always helps =)


Well I'd like to form an angry mob at the ppl that Rick bought the fish from. I usually only get food from them because to be honest they are strange ppl. They are a married couple, they fight all the time in front of customers, and stalk you like you are going to steal a fish and put it in your pocket hehe. Plus they have EVERY kind of animal and the place smells. They have decent fish but in the past when I had cichlids I bought a few from them. And it seemed like I always got ich or something awful in my tanks. I think Rick just forgot how bad it used to be and actually bought this discus. Sure he looked good but was a carrier monkey of the funk! Plus they act like they know EVERYTHING, and I'd like to give her a piece of my mind about what little she knows about diseases always floating around in their tanks  Guess that might make me feel better!


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Also now another question. My male that is the sickest is now also showing signs of swim bladder probs. He can hardly stay upright if he's not lying on the bottom he goes upside down or in circles. Is there anything I can do to help him? I read something about frozen peas in case he's blocked intestinally or something, I also read something about epsom salt or erythromycin?? I don't know much about this and was concerned. I read that it can be caused from viral or bacterial infections which obviously I have due to the other probs going on, but he's the only one showing these signs? Any suggestions? Or can this not be fixed at all?


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

I dont have any experience with discus so I really cant help. Just wanted to say I hope the meds you spoke of earlier help. Most of the time swim bladder problems are due to bacterial infection.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Is there anything I can give him or do for him to fix the swim bladder prob? I just feel so sorry for him cause he has to wedge in a plant or in the driftwood to keep from flailing all over the tank. Plus I know there is no way he can eat like that? Is there anything I can do to help the poor guy. Everyone else seem to be responding to the meds. The other ones are swimming around now more active and eating better, they seem to be getting back to themselves besides the poor guy floating everywhere. Nobody else seemed to get that prob along w/ the sickness just him, and MAN its horribly sad to watch. Will it go away or can I fix it for him?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

When the rest of this infection is cured, then the swimbladder will return to normal. Since I don't know what the stuff was the petshop guy gave you, I don't think it's a great idea to go adding anything else just yet. "Swimbladder" problems are as often as not not actually swimbladder infections, but smooshed swimbladders, smooshed by swollen, inflamed organs. Constipation is also a very common cause, and whaddya know.. infections & antibiotics can both cause constipation.
It could be that this particular discus had some other problems that weren't major until the other infection hit, which could explain why this one is so much sicker than the others.

Anyway the epsom salt thing is 1 teaspoon to 4 gallons in a hospital tank. It could be worth a try, but I think the bouyancy problem will correct itself once the rest of the sickness is gone.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Ok I was thinking that after reading stuff about the disorder. He's still pretty much the same, I just hope it gets better soon cause its horrible to watch him this way, plus I know he's gonna have trouble eating. Someone said to give peas? is that right? and if so how do I even get him to eat them since he can't remain stable w/o flying around in circles.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Baby_Baby said:


> hmm I think peas work. I kinda forgot. sorry. But hope he gets better.....so u ready to start that mob....I've go tmy pitchfork ready =)
> btw, nice signature lol



LOL yeah I figured since I keep getting accused of being a man that this would help w/o having to change my nickname heheh  :mrgreen:


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