# Beginner ?s



## JDM (Jan 18, 2005)

Well I have an extra 10g laying around and would like to make a planted aquarium and put some marigold swordtails in it. Sooooooo What is the best but cheap substrate? What kind of lighting? what kind of plants? and anything other information you can give me. I dont know anything about aquatic plant. the only ones I have are bulbs from walmart that are growing pretty well.
Any Info appreciated.
JDM


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

There are 2 choices of substrate I'd go with. Eco-complete runs about $20.00 for 1 bag which is what you will need with a 10 gallon tank for 3 inches of depth. Flourite with a gravel mix or sand on top of it works also and is cheaper ($10.00 for enough flourite).
As for lighting 25-36 watts would be ideal. Smaller tanks seem to need more light than larger ones to grow the same plants. A PC (power compact) fixture will take care of this.
As for plants there are several....................
Crypts, Anacharis, Wisteria, Watersprite, Anubias, Hornwort, Ludwigia Repens, Bacopa Carolina, Java Fern, microsword, dwarf hairgrass, moneywort, the list is almost endless with that lighting.

CO2 is great to have and if you have over 2wpg is almost a must. Hagen makes a good passive CO2 diffuser and you can use an empty 2-litre soda bottle for a DIY co2 mixture. Runs less than $3.00 a month.

For ferts flourish excel is very handy. I perfer PMDD (http://www.gregwatson.com) but the whole flourish line is good or you could go with tropica's Master Grow if you don't want to mix your own.


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## Gunnie (Jan 20, 2005)

You could try some low light plants in your tank that wouldn't require any special lighting or substrate and you would not need CO2. It might be a good idea before investing in any special equipment. You can have a beautiful tank with live plants with basic lighting and substrate. :wink:


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## maxpayne_lhp (Jan 19, 2005)

If it's a big nuisance for beginning with suntratrate, you can try planting them into seperate pots (caly or plastic...) So it's gonna be easy for you to apply in as well as remove them,,,
Hope that helps!


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## LeafGoblinFish (Mar 15, 2005)

simpte...u seem to have alot of answers sooooo....what do u mean by 2wpg :? and explain this 2 liter cola bottle to me if you could? im sorry :mrgreen: i am BRAND SPANKY NEW to the whole underwater plant thing...i can put some dirt in a pot and plant some above water plants but this under the water thing is confusing me if u can direct me to a website that will xplain all this or tell me urself thatll be great thanx


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## DavidDoyle (Jan 18, 2005)

Go here for great starting point. If any of the urls dont come up, it means the article has likely been moved. If so just do a google for the author's name listed and you will find it. http://www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/info.htm


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## turtlehead (Jan 28, 2005)

2 wpg mean 2 watts of light per gallon.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

The best cheap substrate is 1" of plain soil (garden soil, or potting soil from a garden shop) covered by 1" of small gravel (2-4mm size). Eco-complete, Onxy sand, Flourite, etc, all work fine, but they cost alot. Soil + gravel is extremely cheap and works very well. It's similar to what plants have in the wild!

You will almost assuredly need more light than comes with your tank. I'd aim for between 1.5 and 2 wpg, that is, between 15-20W of light. Note that this is W of flourescent light; incandescent light (plain light bulbs) put out too much heat and not enough light. Put reflectors behind the tubes to maximize light output.

Since you won't have over 2WPG, don't bother with CO2. Use some basic aquatic plants fertilizer from the fish shop if it looks like the plants need it once you get it set up.

This is almost the opposite ofr what Simpte is recommending. He is an advocate of the high-tech, high-cost , high-maintanance approach. The advantage of this is that you can grow pretty much anything. I prefer the low-tech, low-cost, low-maintenance approach. Your choice of plants is more limited, but you can still end up with a beautiful tank that looks very natural.

Oddly enough, many of the plants that Simpte recommended are ones that I'd recommend too. I have good luck with crypts, sagittaria, java fern, water sprite, dwarf 4-leaf clover (marsilea crenata), baby tears.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

High matainence? I don't follow. I fertilize 3 times a week with fertilizer that is way cheaper than the stuff you are using ($8.00 will last me a year). Using potting soil can be very messy and difficult to clean (now thats matainence). Fertilizing is no different than feeding and may take an extra minute. As for Co2 it is always beneficial, low light or not. It prevents algae, boots plant growth, and can mean the difference between a healthy plant and dead ones.

Laterite covered with sand ($13.00 total) is your best cheap substrate. Gravel is no good any way you look at it.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

Soil + gravel isn't high maintenance in my experience. Admittedly, I've had my first soil + gravel tank for less than 1 month, so my experience is limited. Messy? Yes, you get your hands dirty when you're planting. Adn when you pull up plants or put in new ones, the tank gets cloudy for a few hours, but it soon settles down. Difficult to clean? How? Oh, you're talking about gravel vacuuming. Yes, if I wanted to do gravel vacuuming it would be difficult, but I'm not going to. Not in this tank. You've read Diana Walstad's book, and you know that she claims that with a healthy planted tank, where all the floor of the tank is either planted or covered with rocks and such, you generally don't need to vacuum the gravel. I have found a forum, like this one, full of people who are following her methods, and she's not lying. It works for quite a few people. In fact not vacuuming the gravel is a big win in following her methods. I find it a right pain in the other tank, which has a gravel substrate (the plants are grown in pots) where I have to vacuum the gravel every week. We're planning on moving house within the next year, and when we do I'm going to set it up with a soil + gravel substrate so I don't have the vacuum that one either.

If cleaning is such an issue, how do you propose to clean laterite covered with sand, which is your recommendation for a "cheap" (quite a bit more expensive than soil + gravel) substrate? As far as gravel being bad any way you look at it, Diana Walstad's experiences, and the experiences of the many people who have followed her suggestions, proves otherwise. As long as you've got something in it (Laterite, clay balls, Flourite) or under it (soil) plants grow fine. (Given ther other prerequisites, of course, like good lighting.)

Also, your high lighting + CO2 + ferts means that your plants grow very quickly. That's what it's all about, right? And fast growing plants means more trimming to keep them from overtaking the tank. Slower growing plants means you trim them very seldom.

It also takes alot of time and effort to set all that CO2 stuff up.

I'm not saying the CO2 doesn't make your plants grow quicker. I'm sure it does. But my plants are growing fine without it. They are growing at a slow to moderate pace, and that's what I want. I simply don't want fast-growing plants in my tank, just as I don't want fast-growing plants in my garden. I don't want to spend all my time trimming them back. So your insistence that CO2 is always worth the time and/or effort it takes to set it up is not true, at least not for me. For people who want plants that grow fast, it probably is worth it.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Even plants such as anubias and crypts benefit from CO2. As for the cost? $1.39 for a 3lb bag of sugar, an empty 2 litre pop bottle, $1.60 for a 3 pack of yeast, and $1.50 for some baking soda. These products will last you 6 months or more. Expensive? I think not. Slow growing plants are very succeptable to GSA. Once attached, the leaves must be removed as they cannot be cleaned without bleaching which in turn tends to lead to cutting them off anyway. While I have read and own her book, many are following new school methods (getting away from Collin & Sears ect.. and moving towards E.I (Thomas Barr) and PPS. These methods make fertilizing and waterchanges easier than ever controlling algae without having to exactly measure ferts. And many don't want to be limited to 6 or 7 types of plants. Many plants people find beautiful won't do well in a slow growing tank. As for trimming, whats wrong with replanting them? or starting a new tank? or trading them to your lfs for different plants? giving them away to friends? And most slow growers don't provide very adequate fry cover. For livebearers, this is, IMO & IME a must. I would never subject a pregnant fish to a breeding net.

I understand your thinkin, Myra and there is nothing wrong with it. Just a difference in philosophy when it comes to planted tanks. But I would have to agree with the more modern thinkins of Tom Barr, Takashi Amano, and Jeff Senske.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

> While I have read and own her book, many are following new school methods (getting away from Collin & Sears ect.. and moving towards E.I (Thomas Barr) and PPS.


Could you give references for these things? What do I read to find out about these methods? I certainly learned alot from reading Diana Walstad's book, but I'm sure there is plenty more to learn.


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

simpte: can you explain about your co2 thing? i would like to use one in my tank because i would like to have my plants grow faster....as for laterite and all that other stuff you named, i dont know if i can get any, and i already bought gravel for a tank....is there anything that i could add to the gravel that would help plants grow? i dont really like sand, but i do like the way gravel looks, so any suggestions would be appreciated.. thank you!


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## turtlehead (Jan 28, 2005)

for tom barr's EI which I use search estimative index on google, it's a method without using test kits and judging from your plants conditions you add what is needed, the pps is on the other hand is a method where everything including the substrate is inert so you have to go strictly by test kits, in my opinion, pps costs more money, good test kits, ro water and everything. PPS and EI are the exact opposite of each other, both gives good results.

Lydia, you can add plant tabs to your existing gravel, to help with plants.

John


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

i didnt understand a word you just said...so i hope it wasnt directed at me


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

I don't use CO2 injection, but here's a way to do it if you want it:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/index.html
You can get all of this stuff mail order. For example, here's a place selling Laterite:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/wetpetsusa/aqphplprla20.html
You can also mix Flourite with gravel. I can verify that Flourite works very well on its own, perhaps wouldn't work so well mixed with something else?

Or you could buy Diana Walstad's book, read it, and use soil under your gravel, assuming (1) it's small enough, and (2) it isn't plastic-coated. But if you're looking to do this for the absolute minimum amount of money, probably the Laterite would be cheaper than Diana's book!


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Flourite works well by itself but is VERY dusty. YOu have to rins it very well and even then you may have a cloudy tank for 12-24 hrs. Its harmless to fish though. Google for Tom Barr and you will learn a lot about planted tank physiology.


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## LeafGoblinFish (Mar 15, 2005)

lydia, if you already arent...maybe you should try the DIY method first...its cheap it supposedly works and its easy from the looks of it i will be trying it in about 1 week when i get in some new plants. co2 is very expensive. and simpte is a very high tech person that probably has a 200+ gallon aquaium. its just a guess simpte but im gonna give some new idears a shot such as...if you have enough plants in your aquarium they will overgrow the algea and not have that much of a problem with algea so not only will i have my aquaium light but i will also have it close to the window to get a little bit of direct sunlight every day and to counteract my algea issues i am going to try a few FFF's im gonna TRY them. not go psychotic and ignore them and let them tear my tank a new one but supposedly they love algea and tear it up sooooo im gonna go with more sun and my plant flourescent bulb and lots of plants and something to counteract algea


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

i would like to try the diy method, but im not sure i understand it....i understand the part about the bottle outside the aquarium and the check valve and hose running to the inside, but i dont get the part about the reactor and the water fiter return spray bar....could someone explain that to me? also, it looks like a very noticable and kind of ugly setup....i dont mind the part outside the aquarium, bu to me it looks messy inside, judging from the diagram...wouldnt it be hard to disguise the bottle inside? or maybe i dont understand the diagram well enough...

ps. i am referring to the article below


http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/DIY_CO2.html


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## turtlehead (Jan 28, 2005)

You dont need the reactor, just use a wooden airstone.


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## LeafGoblinFish (Mar 15, 2005)

i wasnt told anything about a wooden air stone or a reactor i went to www.thekrib.com and got i guess completely different setup instructions and i dont think it is working very well either that or its working way too well


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## turtlehead (Jan 28, 2005)

how's it like? go to my site and view my co2 page.


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## Julie (Mar 17, 2005)

I would start out as easy as you can. Then once you understand more about it, move up. You will understand more and get a better idea of what you like and don't like. Lighting alone is not going to be cheap usually. I would invest in a good substrate no matter what, Eco-complete, Flourite or Laterite, or the soil, kinda goes in that order to most peoples preference, but I think they all have bonuses. You can take out the gravel you currently have, put down a layer of the substrate, then put your gravel back on top or leave it off with certain substrates. You will want a plant bulb (plant spectrum of reds and blues usually 5500K-6500K)for sure. Lighting is very important, if any improvements are to be made, make it lighting. As far as CO2, you will want to have the correct wattage and spectrum of light, know how it will effect your PH and be on top of the nutrients(which can get very involved). When you add CO2, your plants will grow more, which will use up a lot more nutrients. If I was starting out, I would skip the CO2 and do low maintenance plants. High maintenance is considered to be setups with 3+wpg (maybe 2wpg) and CO2. Doesn't mean it is necessary harder to take care of, just more equipment. 2 of my planted tanks do not have CO2, one is great, the other has some more demanding plants and I need CO2. CO2 can always be added once you need it. But if you really want it that is fine too, I recommend you get a PH test kit, if you do not already own one. Here is another good guide for DIY CO2-http://www.plantedtank.net/co2.html Before anything, look at lights! It can get expensive, but well worth the cost. Just my two cents.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

I just remembered one more thing about CO2. Plants that come from areas with hard water have adapted to be able to pull carbon in in the form of bicarbonate, so they don't need lots of dissolved CO2 in the water to be able to grow. Maybe that's why I have success with plants (meaning, my plants grow at a slow to moderate rate) with no CO2 additions. We have fairly hard water here in the Cambridge (300ppm GH, 240ppm KH).


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

turtlehead @ Wed Mar 16 said:


> You dont need the reactor, just use a wooden airstone.


i have never heard of a wooden airstone...where could i get one? the only ones i know about are the blue ones (maybe made out of ceramic....im not sure)


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## Julie (Mar 17, 2005)

A lot of people have had success just putting the end of the hose in the intake tube of filters, especially canister filters. Thats what I do for my 6g.


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

i have an HOB filter.....im not sure how i could put the end of the tube in the intake tube...has anyone else heard about wooden airstones or know where to get one?


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Doesn't work as well with a HOB. The cannister is sealed but the HOB isn't you end up outgassing the co2 before it re-enters the water. Wooden diffusers run anywhere from $1.50 to $4.00 for 2.


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## LeafGoblinFish (Mar 15, 2005)

ive never heard of or seen a wood airstone until that comment earlier and also the DIY ingredients and setup that i got from www.thekrib.com was a little off if you reserch the ingredients from my "emergency about DIY" topic you will get a proper ingredients list the one that i read said that it used flour and it doesnt i gather the writer said that he only got about 2-4 bubbles per second and mine (which i copied from him) got about 20-40 bubbles per second ....(i almost killed my fish because i didnt know anything about co2 and the affects it has on kh and ph)


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## Thunderkiss (Mar 19, 2005)

Potting soil is inferior to flourite/laterite. Use onlt in VERY small depths so as to avoid H2S production. It stinks a LOT if you drain you tank down (if it has been set up for more than 6 months) is very messy and needlessly rich in far too many organics for my tastes.
It can be used, and to good effect, i just like different ways now. Not as many uncertain variables.

Edit: I'm not sure what they mean by "wooden" but i am assuming they mean the cork airstones you'd use in saltwater. Olnly dilemmea is more frequent changeouts as cork is a wonderful algae grower and soon all the small interstices inside will either deteriorate and make larger chambers inside or clog with algae.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

Thunderkiss wrote:

"Potting soil is inferior to flourite/laterite."

In what way? Do you think it promotes growth of plants less effectively? 

"Use onlt in VERY small depths so as to avoid H2S production. "

No, this isn't a problem. Diana Walstad explains this in her book _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_. If I remember right, the reason is that plant roots prevent the formation of H2S. I don't recall the exact methodology, but I'll look it up this evening if anyone is interested.

"It stinks a LOT if you drain you tank down (if it has been set up for more than 6 months) is very messy"

It may indeed be smelly if you drain it down. I don't know. I have only had a soil + gravel planted tank for one month so far. Is it very messy? Yes, when initially set up, the water gets very cloudy. But the particulates soon settle down. The water does remain kind of yellowish for awhile (the water in my month-old tank is yellowish). Evidently that will settle down also, after a few months. 

From my limited experience with soil + gravel as a substrate, plus what I read from people who have experience with it, the yellow water for the first several months is the only real disadvantage of it. It supports plant growth very well, it doesn't degrade over time, and (best of all) it's exceedingly cheap. 

It seems that people who are into high-tech (high-expense, high-maintanance) planted tanks prefer the expensive proprietary stuff, like Flourite, Laterite, Eco-complete, etc. They also use high lighting (3wpg) and CO2 injection. The people who prefer low-tech (low-cost, low-maintenance) generally prefer soil + gravel because it's alot cheaper and works very well. They generally use less lighting (2wpg + some natural sunlight) and no CO2 injection.


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