# Is he just fooling around?



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I've had my dwarf gouramy Mr Jenkins for two months now. In the past two weeks my wife noticed that what he does is loops around in the tank sometimes. While swimming on top, he goes from the no-current part of the tank to under the pump outflow. He lets himself get carried by the current from the top to bottom while being turned upside down. He then casually swims away and straightens himself out. I've seen him do it once and he seems calm, it's a funny sight. Just wanna make sure he's just having fun and not a bad sign.

Do dwarf gouramis not "sit" perfectly straight? My Mr Jenkins when he "idles" he sits at a slight angle, with the head higher than the rest of the body.
Here's a pic of the little clowny bugger, as he sits 
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5115646946573073746


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## Betta1 (Jan 5, 2007)

I guess theres a possibility for SBD, Swim Bladder Disease, perhaps he's unable to keep himself from going into the current. Most gouramis tend to sit level, I'll look at a few today while i'm out if I've got a chance and see if I notice any sitting like that.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

He's been like that ever since I got him but can't remember if he was like that at the fish store. I've acclimated him using the drip method over an hour and a half when I first got him. I am a little guilty of overfeeding I think. Both him and his 6 neon tetra buddies aren't exactly the slimest specimens around  I fast them every now and then.
He doesn't seem stressed at all. He eats all the time, sometimes he is calm sometimes he gets angry. He has no trouble swimming at absolutely any level in the tank. Sometimes he's at the feeding ring, other times he's munching on the bottom and swimming along the plants. There is absolutely no tendency of buoyancy, IE him floating towards the top. When he zooms around the tank he swims in a perfect straight - position. When he gets carried away by the current it's almost like he's just lazy and lets himself be tossed around. No struggle at all. When he munches on the buttom, he's a sneaky little fellow. He gets between the plants and sits in an absolute vertical position with his head poking at the gravel 
I hope that's an ability and not a bad sign.
I'll try to get a video of him when I get the chance so you can see what I'm talking about. If it's something, it will likely be swim bladder, but I opened the topic because he's the first gourami I've ever had so I'm not familiar with their behavior, what's normal and not normal, what they can and shouldn't do.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

My dwarf gourami will often sit with his tail just slightly lower than his head. He tends to swim this way as well, unless he is swimming downward of course! I looked at the picture and Mine sits like that when he is near the bottom. It is a little less pronounced when he is swimming around, but its still there. Zigfield is just really cute! I am enjoying the dwarf Gourami's 

Now Zigfield has never played the game you are talking about with the currents. I will keep an eye out though and see if I see any of them do this. I do have 2 or 3 black neon tetras that will "hunt" the bubbles that are created by the filter outlet. And they will protect the bubbles from other fish just like they are food. That is quite hilarious to watch. They strike at the bubbles and I am sure there is a moment just afterwards when they go "dang not again."


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## Guest (Oct 26, 2007)

It doesn't sound like your gourami is acting too strangely. My honey gourami does similar things. Gem also pecks at the glass .


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## ASmileForOnlyU (Oct 15, 2007)

I was at the LFS today just admiring that breed and they all sat like that o-0 ha. I think that are just a little tail heavy :]


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, might be unrelated to the question above but my gourami has definitely developed a swim bladder disease. Or, I think it's swim bladder. He seems to be just a bit bloated at his belly and he is laying on the bottom of the tank on his side. When he tries to swim around, he has absolutely no control over his movement.

I quarantined him in a 5.5 gallon tank which I filled with only a gallon and half so he can reach the surface if he manages/wants to. Anything else I can do for him at this point?


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2007)

Sorry to hear it looks like SBD.

I'd assume at this point that it's either caused by a bacterial infection or a diet problem. An unvarried diet can lead to constipation, which can lead to SBD. Or it could very well be a bacterial infection.

In any case, I'd fast the fish, stop feeding him, for about 3 days and see where that gets you. If no sign of improvement, treat with an antibacterial, maracyn two, for example. It sounds to me like he's fairly progressed in the disorder. You may want to go ahead and treat with the antibacterial for time sake.

Good luck


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2007)

Just a note, fish don't really "play" like you say. Most have pretty simple minds and don't have the mental capacity to play in the current and flip over a few times as a form of enjoyment. When a fish acts like that, its usually like you have figured out, SBD, another type of illness or infection, or just overall bad health.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I have Melafix and Pimafix, as well as Maracyn and Maracyn II. Which should I dose then?
After how long should I see signs of improvement? How long can he go without feeding? A week?


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

I'd use the Maracyn II. I've never had to treat for SBD, so I can't give you a time frame for signs of improvements. Fish can go a surprisingly long time without food, although that shouldn't be a habit. For fasting, I've generally read 3 day fasting for SBD, this allows for the system to purge of any waste, etc.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Mardel's Maracyn II package says it's for dropsy, septicemia, popeye and fin and tail rot. Just so I get a better understanding, how would it help? Just want to re-iterate that he's laying on the bottom, he's not floating towards the top.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

"Maracyn-Two is a broad spectrum, gram-negative antibiotic powder for the treatment of external and internal bacterial diseases in freshwater aquariums. Compliments Maracyn and treats fin and tail rot, gill disease, septicemia, black molly disease, columnaris, secondary and internal infections, etc. Quick-dissolving powder works quickly."

I suggested Maracyn II because it's a broad spectrum treatment for bacterial disorders and secondary/internal infections, which may very well be the cause of your SBD. SBD can be caused by a number of things: trauma, a prior defect, constipation, infection, even high temperature. It's generally narrowed down to constipation or a bacterial infection. I recommended it from positive experience of friends who have used it .

Erythromycin, Maracyn, is recommended, from research that I've done, for treating SBD. Either one is likely to be affective, if it's a bacterial infection and not too far progressed.

In any case, fasting will help by relieving any excess pressure and preventing any pressure build up against the SB organ from other organs. Constipation may even be the sole cause of the disorder, but it's not the easiest to tell.

On another note, I wouldn't use Melafix or Pimafix because, like bettas, gourami have labarynth organs that aid in respiration. These oily medications could coat that organ = not good.

Best of luck


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I've started using both Maracyn and Maracyn II just to cover as many bases as possible. Not sure if this is a sign of getting better, but he seems to have a bit more buoyancy to his body, just on the wrong end. His bottom has a tendency to float above the rest of his body. But yes, he's still laying on the bottom. What worries me is that he can't get to the surface to get air. I've raised him a couple of times by just gently pushing him upward with a small net. Will he be OK if he can't get to the surface? I've created a strong water surface aggitation using the pump and it's also pushing some small airbubbles in the water.
IF he makes an attempt at eating, should I give him a small amount of peas, or leave him alone? I'm thinking I'll leave him alone for at least today and tomorrow and then we'll see.
He's also lost a scale or two by bumping into the pump I think, I saw them floating around. When he gets better and I stop treating with Maracyn, should I keep him in the hospital tank for a few days and dose with Pimafix and Melafix just to prevent other diseases, or?

Right now he's in 2.5 gallons of water just so I can better measure my medicine doses. The filter media that I'm using in the pump has been seeded in my main tank where he came from, so the hospital tank should be cycled. Should I do PWCs, or only do it if I get ammonia? IF I have to, when I do a 1gal PWC or so, how would I go about compensating the medication that's been taken out? Ugh, this isn't easy at all.

Thanks all for your suggestions.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Lots of questions .

He should be ok, as you said, you've got the water at a reasonable depth. You may even consider putting a fake plant or something similar for him to rest on nearer the surface, if it worries you. But the best thing for him now is to have as little stress as possible and complete the treatment. 

I wouldn't feed him just yet. Finish the fasting, like you said.

I'd finish treating him for the SBD, see how that goes, and then make a decision on further treatment. If there's nothing wrong with him after the SBD treatment, then don't treat him for anything else. The best preventative treatment is a healthy aquarium; medications may do more harm than good if there's nothing to treat. 

I'm not sure how long it says to treat on the instructions for Maracyn/II, but I personally wouldn't do water changes during treatment. You can at the end of treatment, of course, or if you get some sort of spike.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Treatment is recommended to be done for 5-7 days with no interruption or exception, even if the "patient" gets better.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2007)

Well, there you have it . I hope he makes it!


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

So how long can these guys go without food? How long before we start worrying? I'm thinking this 7 day period is a make or break? He either gets better or I'm going to end up having to perform euthanasia on him?


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2007)

I wouldn't worry too much about how long he can go without food. Generally I hear 7 days for most fish, granted these guys aren't in the wild where the meals would be fewer and farrer between. I know it's been said that bettas *can* go for quite a while longer than a week without food, being relatives I'd imagine it's much the same. But the fasting period is only 3 days, which is enough time, in my opinion, to clear his digestive system without harming him.

After treatment, he's either better or he's not, unfortunately. Just wanted to point out that it's not uncommon for fish to have some deformity, e.g. still look bloated, swim oddly, even after the disorder itself is treated and done with. I'm sure you'll be able to tell if he's improved at all, or if it may be time to take other measures; euthanasia.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for your input. Sounds like it's all up to him/nature/luck/etc. I just hope it doesn't come to euthanasia. I've had nothing but bad luck with bettas and their relatives so far.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Should I be adding salt to the water at all? I have both marine and API aquarium salt.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Considering that his last meal was past Thursday, which makes it 6 days of fasting, I decided to try and feed him just a little to hopefully buy him some time and I managed to do so. I fed him 2 unfrozen baby brine shrimp and one small betta pellet which I pre-soaked. He went right after them, but I had to feed him using a dropper, by letting the food float down right by his mouth. He sure was hungry! Unfortunately his condition hasn't improved, at least not visibly. He still sinks heavily to the bottom and is laying on his side. Even with a great deal of effort he can't manage to upright himself or reach the surface.
I will continue the Maracyn+Maracyn II treatment and actually extend it for 2 days, for a total of 7. I'll do a water change Friday and just, I dunno ... go from there I guess.
I don't know if this is a faint sign of improvement at all but half of his body, from his belly to his tail, does seem to have some buoyancy. It naturally floats a few mmm from the bottom of the tank, but the rest of his body is still heavy. I'll try to get a video but I don't think it'll show anything more than what I already described.

If I remember my anatomy well, I'm thinking his swim bladder is completely void of any air?
Any other suggestions? I don't wanna experiment on him every medicine known to the aquarium hobby, but I want to give him every chance I can. Tomorrow I will feed him a very very small piece of a pea, as it's a laxative. But I think it's been established by now it wasn't a case of overfeeding or constipation. Since he hasn't reacted much to the antibiotics I'm deducing it either isn't viral/bacterial, or it's vicious and taking time to heal.
Any other input is more than welcome!


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

For some reason I hadn't gotten notification of your posts on here. Sorry about that.

Salt isn't very necessary as you are treating him with other forms of medication, in my opinion. The appetite is a good sign, as well as the regaining of some buoyancy. As for the anatomy of the swim bladder, it's a gas filled chamber, in essence. Depending on the pressure from the depth of water on the fish's body, the SB either expands or contracts and adjusts the gas compression accordingly.

Since constipation has been ruled out, and it's probably not a genetic defect because it developed after a while, my best diagnosis is still on an infection (I was hoping someone would have a second opinion on the matter). He does seem to be responding to the treatment, although not by much. Sometimes it's necessary to conduct a second tenure of treatment. You may have to do this or treat for another possible/less likely cause: parasites.

Swim bladder disorders can also be caused by trauma. Is it possible he could have had some traumatic injury?

Raising your tank temperature to about 78-80*F may help to soften the organ as well. It's worth a try. 

Like you said, treating the fish with every medicine known to the fish hobby isn't a good idea, but you may have to treat for internal parasites. It's less common in my experience that SBD is caused by parasites, but if these additional treatments don't help, it's the next in line.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Tank has been at 78*F since day 1 of treatment, basically, and will be kept there for the remaining of time. No real possibility of injury or trauma, his tankmates are neon tetras and shrimp and he doesn't have any wounds or abbrasions or anything on him at all.
Could you recommend a good treatment of internal parasites, as I do not know of one. It might be possible, because I did introduce some small floating plants from my pond and when I was rinsing one out there was a little wormy wriggling. I realized, too late, that I didn't take this possibility into account, as I already had a plant in the tank. Didn't look harmful and I figured my shrimp would go right for it. But this too, has taken place a long time ago, about 2-3 months? Other tank inhabitants are fine and my pond is in top shape but you can never know.

Much later edit: well, with Thanksgiving and everything I didn't want to risk anything so I stopped by PetCo and picked up some _Parasite Clear_ by Jungle. Is that any good? They're just fizz tabs. Supposed to contain praziquantel, diflubenzuron, metronidazole, acriflavine and it's effective for both internal and external parasites.
Tomorrow will be the 5th day of antibiotic treatment, the plan is to complete it, do a very large water change, give the gourami a one day break and then dose with Parasite Clear. I'll be feeding him this time too.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2007)

That does seem like some time since you added the plant, but I suppose parasites can "wait" around until conditions are ideal or they find a host. I can't really be sure.

The Parasite Clear should work, if it's parasitic. Sounds like a plan.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2007)

Any improvement, news?


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for checking back. No noticeable improvement. I'm continuing the second and final treatment with Maracyn+Maracyn II. The Parasite Clear didn't seem to have any effect, so it wasn't parasitic. He's eating every morning, I feed him with a dropper. He's used by now, he sees the dropper by his head and starts gulping. He definitely has an apetite but he can't swim. One improvement, if you can call it that way, is that when he does make an effort to swim around, he manages to actually build momentum and floats around in the tank even upright but not much, he still sinks and lays on his side. Today was the 3rd day of the 2nd antibiotic treatment, there's 2 days left. I'll finish it and then we'll see.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

Sounds like it must be fairly severe for the treatments not to be working, but he's taking it better than most fish in my experience. 

SBD usually clears up with treatment, but can leave some deformity (the bloating and wobbly swimming), but it's usually not that severe. Him eating is still a good sign. If he doesn't worsen when all is said and done, I suppose it's up to you what to do next.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Last day of treatment today, I'll do a large PWC tomorrow and I'll think about it. But I'm affraid it's looking like euthanasia at this point, although he eats, seems to be in good health otherwise and not even stressed, his quality of life from this point on would absolutely suck. Maybe I'll keep him in clear water, no treatment until the end of the week and go from there. You've been the most helpful ever and I thank you for your patience. I feel so sorry for the little guy though. What would be best and with the least amount of suffering? Taking him out and whacking him or dumping him into a bowl of freezing water? And I know that by freezing it means the water has to be cold enough to start freezing at the top. I'm just affraid that he might not die right away in the bowl.


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## FinnFan (Aug 28, 2007)

I think someone once suggested filling a bucket or bowl with ice cubes and the coldest water you can get from the tap. Letting that sit for a couple of minutes should make the water really, really cold. I'm sorry to hear your fish isn't getting better, despite your hard work


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## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

My blue gourami does this some times. He likes to swim up to filter and let it drift him away then he will keep on doing it for a bit and just quit and swim around. Some times he also sleeps like that pic. I Don't worry about it.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Here's an example of not reading the entire topic and jumping on the Post Reply button


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2007)

I generally don't suggest straight out freezing as a good form of euthanasia, like you said what the fish actually feels is a bit sketchy. But if the water is cold enough at first, this would numb the pain, start to shut down the fish's system, and then death would occur. I can't say for sure what the temperature of the water would have to be though. 

Anesthatizing the fish with clove oil and then freezing or otherwise is a more definite way of making sure the fish doesn't feel or feels less pain. 

http://kokosgoldfish.com/tom06.html

I'm sorry to hear that he didn't improve


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## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

Well it didn't post but here we go again. My blue gourami acts like that too. He will swim to Filter were the water is coming out of and let his self drift to the other side of the tank. then go under and play around in the plants. and some times he sleeps upside down. My platy which is in the tank as well is that way to.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2007)

TheChosenTanker- We could be able to help you more, if you would please post a thread of your own stating your tank stats, water parameters, etc. 

Don't take that to be rude, just saying to prevent confusion.


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## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

No I was just saying my fish is that way too I don't need help at the moment. Acts like he does sometime


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## neilfishguy (Oct 7, 2007)

Read the thread! your fish has swim bladder disease probably.


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## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

He only does it some time. then he just swims I said.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

That's how mine was, until he got worse and ... here we are today!


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## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

Oh well he hasn't done it in about a week.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Mine was like that too. He'd act normal and then apparently "fool around".
I suggest you keep a VERY close eye on yours and if his condition deteriorates, take steps asap.

Well, unfortunately I had to euthanize Mr Jenkins, the dwarf gourami. There was no way he was getting better. Almost 20 days of various treatments and his condition was like day 1. Not having had any clove oil and when I took a water reading in the hospital tank I had trace ammonia. I just whacked him over the head real quick, no suffering. Poor little guy.

Ok so I've had 3 fatalities in a year. Two bettas and one gourami. I was going to go buy a honey gourami but you know what? I think I'm just destined to keep killing anything in the Anabantidae, so no more gouramis or bettas for me


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2007)

Sorry it came to this.  On a slight side note, honey gourami tend to be sensitive, in my experience.

Are you still planning to keep fish? Not sure if he was the only fish you had.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Oh, he wasn't my only fish. Right now I still have the 10 gallon he was in with 6 neon tetras, plants, ghost shrimp [with eggs] and a bunch of snails. I would like another centerpiece fish BUT since this is the 3rd I lost in less than a year in the betta/gourami family, maybe it's a sign. Alas, I don't know what else would go in there. I am KINDA considering a honey gourami for Christmas, but I dunno. Like I said, only fish I've lost to illness and not only that, but 3 in a year.
I also have a 10g red claw crab brackish tank and a 75 palludarium that houses a colony of 7 fiddler crabs  I am far from giving up on this hobby, but I think I have given up on keeping this particular species. I do have a thread about centerpiece suggestions for a 10g with 6 neons, so far though only bettas and gouramis have come up


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I might want to try using this now empty hospital tank as a temporary house for breeding my ghost shrimp. I rinsed everything down thoroughly with just very hot water but there's a faint smell to the filter foam and the fake plant of melafix or pimafix. I know this stuff isn't active forever, so is that going to be a problem with anything?


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