# Any Idea what this is?



## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

What is this and how do I fix it/get rid of it?

These are Wisteria.......and I get nice good growth on the tops..........but some of the leaves (in picture) get this brownish/blackish film/covering.

FYI.........

2 WPG
Eco Complete Subtrate (roots are growing like crazy on these)
Flourish Excel 2-3 times per week
Flourish Iron 1 per week
Flourish Potasium 2 per week


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

Looks like an algae to me. try cutting back on the Excel to once a week.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

johnmoss said:


> What is this and how do I fix it/get rid of it?
> 
> These are Wisteria.......and I get nice good growth on the tops..........but some of the leaves (in picture) get this brownish/blackish film/covering.
> 
> ...


jm:

Several Items:


*One*

I am just flat not very good at ID'ing plants but are you sure that some of these plants are not *Water Sprite?*


*Two*

Although you did not indicate dosages you are lacking *Flourish* in your fertilization protocol.

Double dosing with Flourish for several weeks should help here.

Increasing the Flourish Potasium dosage should help also.


*Three*

jm: do not get me wrong here (as I have been down the path upon which you are treading) but you are spending a ton on liquid fertilizers and are in serious need of getting into the "dry fert business" as macro and micro nutrient concentrations are much easier to control with dry fertilizers and the cost of dry fertilizers is much less than with liquid fertilizers.

The "keys to the kingdom" with respect to understanding most of the basics of a planted aquarium is *Rex Grigg's Site*.

I have found that the *Kaufmann's* function very well with respect to the procurement of dry fertilizers.

Dry fertilizers are really very simple but take a little "getting used to" and I can give you some additional "helpful hints" if you believe that you want to get "into them".

TR


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## BV77 (Jan 22, 2005)

very interesting, Ron, thanks for the sites


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

BV77 said:


> very interesting, Ron, thanks for the sites


Bob:

Very nice to see you again! and I miss us chatting (ie. heaters in a reefer, etc).

As you (and maybe jm also) may be considering getting into the "dry fert business" I need to continue.

A tremendous help here is *Chuck Gadd's Window's Calculator.*

The real item though is that via my experience the concentrations of dry fertilizers set forth at Rex's and Chuck's Sites are established for the "guys" who run like 20ppm to 30ppm CO2 and *please do not use these concentrations initially* or else yall will have out very rusty dull knives searching to severe what I believe to be very vital parts of my anatomy.

If you have 1.5WPG to 2.0WPG start at like 10% of the concentrations, except as enumerated below, and work your way up until algae appears.

*One*
Until you have had six months or so experience do not (and I really mean *do not*) include phosphate (KH2PO4) in your fertilizer mixture.

*Two*
You will not find anywhere the quantity of CSM+B to include in your mixture:
I have found that 1.0 teaspoon of CSM+B for each tablespoon of KH2PO4 is appropriate until algae appears and increasing this concentration to 1.5 will cause a significant decrease in the algae.

*Three*
The Magnesium Sulfate in MgSO4·7H2O seems to really help in plant health and growth and is not (or at least for me) readily available in the liquid fertilizer world.

*Four*
If you have fish in your tank do not include Nitrates (KNO3) in your mixture as contrary to the literature I have found that like 5PPM Nitrates is sufficient.

*Five*
The addition of Iron Chelate 10% seems to really help with plant health and growth but you got to be very careful with this as it seems to be toxic to fish in significant concentrations. I add it to my mixture at a concentration of 1 teaspoon per 50 tablespoons of KH2PO4.

You and jm please note that my posts are based on experience with my micro ecosystems and that each micro ecosystem varies and as such my comments only represent what I believe to be a reasonable "starting point" for yall.

TR


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## johnmoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Thanks all for the posts.......

First off..........hmmmm.......it was sold to me at my LFS as a Wisteria...but it does look awfully like the sprite in your picture....could be I was had.

I have several plants in my tank...

Red Crypt
Sword 
Anubias
Java Fern
dwarf hair grass
Val
and the mystery plan I called Wisteria..........

The Crypts are growing great.....just split them into 4 plants from two and they are bushy and happy.

The swords were doing ok, but I had some clown plecos that at two many holes in them and cut them back and they are regrowing nice.

The Java and anubias seem to be ok but they are not growing fast.....

The Val just doesnt seem very happy at all.....leaves are brown with some deteriation in the middle.........this is what prompted the Iron and Potasium as this appeared to be the cure based on online reading.

I have a DIY CO2 that is only on during the day.....again.....most of my plants seem to be doing ok but that algae (or whatever it is) seems to be on several plants and I want to dump it so all my plants are happy happy.

I am planning on upping my wattage to 2.5 in the next two weeks (working on a DIY canopy and will add some new lights)

I WILL NOT add any product to my tank with PHOSPHATES as I had a major algae meltdown due to phospates a while back. (Jonesy you wrote some feedback on that).

My goal is to keep it simple and cheap (if possible)....

Any tips are much appreciated.......again the issues is with the lovely brown stuff.

BTW.......I only added the CO2 because when I had the phospate/algae issue I LOADED my tank with plants and they did ok for a while then started to look sad......based on what I read online (Again) my tank was probably overloaded with plants and lacked C02....


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

jm: you spent as much time on your post as I do on mine!



johnmoss said:


> I WILL NOT add any product to my tank with PHOSPHATES as I had a major algae meltdown due to phospates a while back. (Jonesy you wrote some feedback on that).


jm: hopefully the feedback was the same!!!

As I get more experience via my experiments my thinking refines but I seriously doubt that the "phosphate business" has due to the ordeal which I got into simply by reading on the Internet and applying the concepts blindly!




johnmoss said:


> First off..........hmmmm.......it was sold to me at my LFS as a Wisteria...but it does look awfully like the sprite in your picture....could be I was had.


As I said I am just flat not good at ID'ing but no sweat if they are WS as they are very nice plants.




johnmoss said:


> The Crypts are growing great.....just split them into 4 plants from two and they are bushy and happy.
> The swords were doing ok, but I had some clown plecos that at two many holes in them and cut them back and they are regrowing nice.


This is to be expected with your lighting and fertilization protocol.




johnmoss said:


> The Java and anubias seem to be ok but they are not growing fast.....


No sweat. The Anubias is a very slow grower although the Java should be growing somewhat faster but as you are not reporting hair algae on the leaves of either you are doing good.




johnmoss said:


> The Val just doesnt seem very happy at all.....leaves are brown with some deteriation in the middle.........this is what prompted the Iron and Potasium as this appeared to be the cure based on online reading.


Please be careful with the Iron as I indicated.

If this protocol did not work you have the Val's in an area of the tank which either has too much flow or too little flow (although this is not published in the literature).

The Val's on the right side of my tank are unbelievable but I am still experimenting with the jets on the left side of the tank in order to get the same health and growth of the Val's on the right side of the tank.




johnmoss said:


> My goal is to keep it simple and cheap (if possible)....


and hence the dry ferts.




johnmoss said:


> again the issues is with the lovely brown stuff.


jm: Apparently I was too verbose in my post as I believed that I had addressed this issue:

[1] Add micronutrients either in the form of Flourish or CSM+B and

[2] Increase the K.




johnmoss said:


> I have a DIY CO2 that is only on during the day.....again.....most of my plants seem to be doing ok but that algae (or whatever it is) seems to be on several plants and I want to dump it so all my plants are happy happy.
> 
> I am planning on upping my wattage to 2.5 in the next two weeks (working on a DIY canopy and will add some new lights)


One last thing jm:

You are treading the path which I have been down.

When you go to 2.5WPG you will be seeing green with or without the liquid fertilizers.

With dry fertilizers, DIY CO2, and like six months of experience you will start to really experience joy.

TR


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I am interested in your comments about the vals and water flow. Oddly enough, the tank where they grow like mad-- they are at the opposite end of the tank to the filter- almost in stagnant water.
In the tank where I am having so much trouble getting them to take, well they are in the area of the filter.
What else can you add to my knowledge? have never read this before about water flow affecting them.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

mousey said:


> I am interested in your comments about the vals and water flow. Oddly enough, the tank where they grow like mad-- they are at the opposite end of the tank to the filter- almost in stagnant water.
> In the tank where I am having so much trouble getting them to take, well they are in the area of the filter.
> What else can you add to my knowledge? have never read this before about water flow affecting them.


ms: yea I know as I had never read about it before either but this phenomena exists.

I have messed around unmercifully with the jets on the left side of my tank trying to get the vals on the left to grow as they do on the right side.

Your comments have added to my knowledge with respect to adjusting these jets.

TR


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

well glad to help but you did not add any new info for me other than I guess I am going to have to rearrange MY tank now. unfortunately I am dealing with a Penguin filter so have no jets to twiddle with;-)
Do you have any words of wisdom about the amazon sword plant that will not grow? It is Not in the water flow. Should it be do you think.
Oddly enough- the lady that had this tank before me very seldom got around to cleaning the tank. The fish were all severley overweight and the mulm was a good inch thick. She ran the same filter and had plants in thick masses everywhere regardless of position. Now I on the other hand do diligent water changes and gravel cleanings and am having trouble with the plants growing. I don't genereally ahve much problem with sick fish whereas she had a high ammonia level all the time and sick fish.
I suppose it is a trade off or finding a precarious balance.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

mousey said:


> well glad to help but you did not add any new info for me other than I guess I am going to have to rearrange MY tank now.


Well shucks: guess that you think that you are the only cherry out there! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Serious now though.

When you transplant the Val's they will probably "melt down" but do not get worried as they will soon grow back.

This assertion is very qualitative but I believe that the rate of "regrowth" is associated with the size of the root mass of the plant.

When you "pull them up" you should be able to easily ascertain the child plants from the parent plant.

The child plants will produce the greatest growth and exhibit the greatest health (ie. if you got a heater to hide ....).




mousey said:


> Do you have any words of wisdom about the amazon sword plant that will not grow? It is Not in the water flow. Should it be do you think.


ms: do not think so.


These swords are "something else"!

As you are aware I am experimenting with different types of lighting simultaneously (ie. HQI-MH and PC), lamp K value placements, lighting durations and dry fertilizer concentrations.

I am also experimenting with floating plant shading.

Just when I get the Echinodorus 'Aquartica' to really going the Echinodorus quadricostatus go to sh........t and/or the Echinodorus amazonicus (aka Amazon Sword) [as well as several others].

My best current guess is that current in the tank does not affect Amazon Swords health and growth but that: lighting, like 1.5WPG; lighting duration like 12 hours per day; micronutrients like a bunch of Flourish or CSM+B; and a significant potassium concentration do.




mousey said:


> Oddly enough- the lady that had this tank before me very seldom got around to cleaning the tank. The fish were all severley overweight and the mulm was a good inch thick. She ran the same filter and had plants in thick masses everywhere regardless of position. Now I on the other hand do diligent water changes and gravel cleanings and am having trouble with the plants growing. I don't genereally ahve much problem with sick fish whereas she had a high ammonia level all the time and sick fish.
> I suppose it is a trade off or finding a precarious balance.


ms: Right, wrong or indifferent I am a stout believer in no observable concentrations of ammonia or nitrites and only minimal nitrates.

My analogy is the smoke filled room which you have read in other of my posts and which I do not believe that my fishies enjoy.

TR


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

since I have a gravel only tank I have found that for 'short' distances I can push the plants and gravel into the area I want and pull the other gravel back into the previously planted area.
Saves disrupting the roots.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

mousey said:


> What else can you add to my knowledge?


ms:

Thought of something earlier today which I have not seen published.

Based upon my experiments I believe that lighting intensity and lighting duration are independent parameters in plant health and growth.

ie. 12 hours/day of 1.0WPG does yield the same health and growth as 8 hours/day of 1.5WPG.

Please note that I believe that the reverse is true for some plants also.

I know that this concept seems weird but just thought that I would express it.

TR


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

talk about running contrary to 'common' wisdom.
I think that can be somewhat true for some plants. Take the sturdy java fern for exanple. I have a couple in my 20 gallon. Light runs for 8 hours at 2.3 wpg. fern is attached to a piece of wood and its roots grow about 6-8 inches thru the water as well as around the wood. It is a vibrant green and massive.There are actually 2 plants- one being a giant leaf and one a small leaf.
In my 10 gallon I have a java that gets 2-3 hours of artificial light of 1.3 wpg as well a bright room light. it is also growing well but is not as vibrant in colors nor do the roots travel thru the water.
I never bother with ferts in the 10 gallon and the fish load is small. The 20 gallon has plenty of nutrients.
Since the discussion is about lighting I tend to agree with what you are saying.
I do like to keep the lights on for my enjoyment of seeing the fish activity so my lights are on for a full 8 hours. A lot of plant sites recommend that they be on for at least 12 hours but I find then that the algae gets really out of control. it is a compromise I have found works for me.
How much natural light goes into your tank? I don't mean sunlight- just natural room light.
The other thing I have found is that plants do not like to compete with other. Where I have vals, hornwort and javas, the javas seem to get the short end of the stick. They are alive but do not grow super well . This is demonstrated in my 15 gallon tank where I have the vals at the quiet end of the water flow and the javas in the fast flow area. If the vals get too close the java starts to drop leaves.
In the 20 gallon that consists of javas, anubias and hornwort I have a heck of a time getting vals started. I actually have removed them from that tank. They go all leggy and thin despite what all else is done for them.
hope these comments add to your knowledge base. perhaps we will see some kind of treatise from you in a magazine regarding plants??


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

mousey said:


> How much natural light goes into your tank? I don't mean sunlight- just natural room light.


ms:

No sunlight!

Note the electric pull down carbon filament fabric shades on the right side of the photographs.



















Virtually no room light.

When the tank lights are off the fish are virtually imperceptible.

The room lights are standard incandescent cannisters and one is shown in the first photograph.




mousey said:


> The other thing I have found is that plants do not like to compete with other.


I have not observed this but will commence observation for this condition.

I place and use (or at least attempt to) the plants to be mutually beneficial.

Examples are that:
the Val's shade the Anubias from intense light but I trim the Val's when the shading becomes too intense;
the *Riccia fluitans* shade some of the Sword's but I harvest some of the Riccia fluitans when the shading intensity appears to become counterproductive; etc.




mousey said:


> hope these comments add to your knowledge base.


ms: they have and thanks!




mousey said:


> perhaps we will see some kind of treatise from you in a magazine regarding plants??


This one will never happen as I do not have the pedigrees and
The big boys would never allow such heresy to be published although substantially confirmed by experimentation.


ms: Do not believe for a second that I have a handle on all of this as I do not.

I have not published a current photograph of my tank as it is a mess.

Going from 1.5WPG with Flourish to 1.5WPG with dry fertilizers was no problem.

Getting frisky and going from 1.5WPG to as much as 5WPG with DIY CO2 has really been an ordeal. (This intensity can be generated via three fixtures with 5 on/off switches and hence my ability to experiment with different K value lamps as well as intensities and intensity's durations.)

TR


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