# Help! Need to revive my potato chip!!!



## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Okay, long story short, went on a 24 hour vacation, came back, oh crud. My female stiktos is a potato chip. (slightly moist I guess)



I am trying to revive my wonderfully costly beautiful potato chip. So far I have put the fish in water (DUH), put the fish in a jar in the tank, and added a pinch of salt. (what coincidence, putting salt on my potato chip. Right?)



Any other things I can do would be helpful!!! Thanks!


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

Sorry to tell you but I think it's too late to revive her.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

grab a shovel..


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2013)

lohachata said:


> grab a shovel..


Yep I agree. 

Betta man: I literally LOL from reading your post. A betta looking like a potato chip? I would say that that fish is gone.

A little crash course in betta care: always make sure they have clean water and food and are healthy before going on any length of vacation. Always have detailed instructions for anyone taking care of your fish. Have a way they can get a hold of you should anything happen.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

She perished. May me sweet (and salty) little potato chip rest in pieces. I mean peace. 

I left sunday and got back monday. She was in a planted 15 gal with 2 other bettas, 2 neons (the rest died), and a kuhli.

My guess is she jumped due to aggression. What other reason would she have?

Actually, potato chips can be resuscitated. A man in my aquarium club found his fish dried up on the floor. The eyes were not sunken in (like mine were) and he put it in water and it recovered. I know it was a longshot hoping to resuscitate her, but it was worth a try. Especially as I don't want to kick down 60 bucks for a new one.

At least I have 1 of her daughters that is approaching sexual maturity. Fingers crossed.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Can you tell me how this type of betta differs from the common kind? Thanks.
I can't see much difference by looking at photos on the internet


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I have revived fish that were a little dry with gills still moving. And the ones I hear leave the tank almost always make it unless they hit the concrete too hard. Usually, though, I find them days or weeks too late.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

This species is far prettier, my fish was a pureblood, they are tougher, easier to spawn, have smaller fry, are less aggressive, are going extinct in the wild, are super rare, and super expensive. Does that cover it?  

Good fortune has it so that I have a pureblood female that is his daughter that is just getting to sexual maturity and barring up. Should be able to breed them in a month, but I'm going to make sure she's old enough as I do not want to import more of these.


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## hXcChic22 (Dec 26, 2009)

Is inbreeding not as big a deal with fish as with other species? Because breeding a male fish and his daughter seems like it might lead to weakened results.


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## TheJakeM (May 11, 2013)

That type of inbreeding will weaken the line, but a good cross of a completely unrelated fish will incredibly strengthen it.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Actually, the smaller the animal, the smaller the effect. Mice constantly interbreed and have you heard them complaining about health issues? Me neither!!!

On a serious note, the parents where siblings, this male will breed with his daughter and the fry will breed with another stiktos that I will buy or trade for from a friend.


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## TheJakeM (May 11, 2013)

I don't think that's true. Naked mole rats are pretty small, and look at what inbreeding has done to them! Genes are the same, no matter how small. I actually see it quite often in my platies, which are smaller than bettas. I try to separate the related ones, but sometimes something happens and I get a batch of crooked backed and stillborn fry.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I have to say Betta that I do not necessarily think it was a futile thing to at least try to see if your girl could be revived. I have heard of some dang flat fish somehow managing to make it. It was worth the effort, sorry that you lost her.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks. 

For the inbreeding, you also have to realize that different sub species of fish are probably due to macro evolution. (not the debatable evolution with your great ancestors being apes). Which of course means that there was inbreeding! I really doubt that all those sub species of fish were created originally. Just like dogs, wolves, coyotes, foxes, ect. They probably separated. I have heard theories about why asians, arabs, and blacks, and whites are different in appearance and am not quite sure what I believe on it. The theory was that they separated into different areas of the land and did inbreeding which. It seems kind of likely to me as back than, siblings would marry sometimes. I do not think there was much of an effect back then. You also need to think of how in the wild, species do not care about inbreeding. I will only do a few gens so it shouldn't make a difference. Hope you don't think I'm going crazy about this and making too big of a deal about it.....


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## Superfly724 (Sep 16, 2007)

A lot of people use inbreeding in a lot of different ways. There aren't any real negative effects in fish unless you inbreed about 8 generations in a row. Most people use it to actually breed for a specific trait. If you have two regular Zebra Danios, and they have a batch of fry, and one fry randomly mutated and got a long-fin gene, then the breeder then breeds the long-fin fish with it's mother or father. The long-fin gene becomes more dominant, and maybe half of their batch of fry will have long-fins. Then you can breed those long-fin offspring with it's long-fin parent for a much more likely chance of getting all long-fin offspring.

That's actually how the Tropheus color morphs got started. One fish will mutate with a strange color, and the females of the area begin to favor that color strain so they breed with them. Then there's more offspring with that color gene, until it becomes common enough that it becomes a common color morph.


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## TheJakeM (May 11, 2013)

I'm not saying there aren't benefits, I'm just saying I don't personally agree with the practice. 


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## Superfly724 (Sep 16, 2007)

Then make sure, if you ever try to breed fish, that you get your male and female from 2 different places. Most people that sell fish will have 2 adult fish of each species that produce all the fry. So if you buy fish from them, and then decide to breed them, you're more than likely inbreeding.


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

TheJakeM said:


> I'm not saying there aren't benefits, I'm just saying I don't personally agree with the practice.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Good Lord... it's not like they're committing incest or the fish would get arrested.

Who cares? They're fish, not humans.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2013)

This thread has been hilarious. Jake: animals don't care whether they are brother/sister, daddy/daughter, mother/son, they will have sex with each other and it is perfectly normal for them and nothing will happen to the offspring, the offspring will not be deformed in any way.


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## hXcChic22 (Dec 26, 2009)

Angelclown said:


> This thread has been hilarious. Jake: animals don't care whether they are brother/sister, daddy/daughter, mother/son, they will have sex with each other and it is perfectly normal for them and nothing will happen to the offspring, the offspring will not be deformed in any way.


You're right; they may not care. But you're wrong in that inbreeding does not cause problems, completely wrong. Just because a few may not seem affected doesn't mean the rest won't be. Inbred animals often have numerous problems, which is why it isn't done in dogs and cats (or humans, for that matter). 

I don't agree with the practice, either. If I were trying to produce a desirable, sell-able fish, inbreeding would not be my go-to. VERY experienced fish breeders may have the knowledge and ability to recognize the minute differences in fish produced this way that are healthy and ones that are not, but this doesn't seem a smart practice for an inexperienced breeder.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

some species of animals are not affected by inbreeding..
genetic defects and deformities are most severe in human beings..
the 2 most prominent defects i have encountered with fish such as angels are the unusual stubbiness or even the complete lack of the ventral fins..i have also seen a condition called "saddleback"...in this the fish looks like a bite was taken out of it's forehead just before the dorsal fin starts..although these conditions start after many generations of inbreeding ; they can be a real problem for the hobby...
what i dislike even more it the interbreeding of species and the intentional breeding of genetically deformed species..flowerhorns being one of the tops on my list..also the "balloon" types..
but almost all of the color and pattern variations you see within a species comes from inbreeding...but the best specimens are produced by first inbreeding and then outcrossing..this keeps the strain clean and robust.

but again , keep in mind that in the wild it is survival of the fittest...creatures choose their mates a bit differently than we humans ; but not completely different....we just lack the smarts to always know who is good for us and who isn't...and good and evil is quite rare in nature...pretty much just in humans..


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## TheJakeM (May 11, 2013)

What I meant was basically what Loha is saying. Also, if it would save a species, the animals would evolve to inbreed, even if would slightly weaken them. Most animals, however, (and I find this quite interesting ) even humans, have evolved to not find another of their species with a similar smell to be attractive. If someone grew up in your house with you, moved away, and then met you later in life, would not be attractive to you. There are, though, diseases that actually completely reverse the affect, even in humans. Fish do not have this trait, but genes are the same in all creatures, and similar actions will have similar effects. Some of you should do some research before ridiculing others. I'm not posting on this thread again. I also think I'll be taking a break from the forums. So, bye.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

hXcChic22 said:


> You're right; they may not care. But you're wrong in that inbreeding does not cause problems, completely wrong. Just because a few may not seem affected doesn't mean the rest won't be. Inbred animals often have numerous problems, which is why it isn't done in dogs and cats (or humans, for that matter).
> 
> I don't agree with the practice, either. If I were trying to produce a desirable, sell-able fish, inbreeding would not be my go-to. VERY experienced fish breeders may have the knowledge and ability to recognize the minute differences in fish produced this way that are healthy and ones that are not, but this doesn't seem a smart practice for an inexperienced breeder.


Eh, inexperienced breeder as I may be, but these fish are wild caught, high quality, purebloods. You are right to an extent. I am only inbreeding for the second generation and the fish I choose are perfect as I can see. Without a defect visible to my eye. Good straight spine, good scales, good gill cover, decently aggressive, and gorgeous. I disagree to repeated inbreeding, but actually, breeding this female to her uncle/father is not going to create terrible defects. If I did it another generation, it would start to be a problem. By then, I am going to get a new stiktos male or female to breed with my strain.



lohachata said:


> some species of animals are not affected by inbreeding..
> genetic defects and deformities are most severe in human beings..
> the 2 most prominent defects i have encountered with fish such as angels are the unusual stubbiness or even the complete lack of the ventral fins..i have also seen a condition called "saddleback"...in this the fish looks like a bite was taken out of it's forehead just before the dorsal fin starts..although these conditions start after many generations of inbreeding ; they can be a real problem for the hobby...
> what i dislike even more it the interbreeding of species and the intentional breeding of genetically deformed species..flowerhorns being one of the tops on my list..also the "balloon" types..
> ...


AMEN to that brother. 



TheJakeM said:


> What I meant was basically what Loha is saying. Also, if it would save a species, the animals would evolve to inbreed, even if would slightly weaken them. Most animals, however, (and I find this quite interesting ) even humans, have evolved to not find another of their species with a similar smell to be attractive. If someone grew up in your house with you, moved away, and then met you later in life, would not be attractive to you. There are, though, diseases that actually completely reverse the affect, even in humans. Fish do not have this trait, but genes are the same in all creatures, and similar actions will have similar effects. Some of you should do some research before ridiculing others. I'm not posting on this thread again. I also think I'll be taking a break from the forums. So, bye.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Seriously man, get a grip. We didn't mean it hurtfully, rudely, or meanly. We want to hear other's opinions. Just because we disagree with you does not make us mean. (though that guy betta man might disagree). Leaving this forum might feel like a solution and I have been tempted to do so especially with loha's naughty remarks, but he doesn't mean it personally, as annoying as it may get. Genes are not the same in all creatures. If a human brother mates with his sister, you are going to have health problems. Not necessarily so with fish. Now that I think of it, my pair probably wasn't a sibling pair as they are wild caught.

That means that there's probably a small amount of inbreeding. Breeding a father to his inbred daughter is not going to destroy the line. Especially if I outbreed right after. I have been doing research and here's something I found at io9.com.

"Researchers were shocked to find that for women born between 1800 and 1824, marriages between third cousins produced an average of 4.04 children and 9.17 grandchildren, while marriages between eighth cousins or more distantly related couples had averages of only 3.34 children and 7.31 grandchildren. For women born between 1925 and 1949, with mates related at the degree of third cousins, the average number of children and grandchildren were 3.27 and 6.64, compared with 2.45 and 4.86 for those with mates who were eighth cousins, or more distantly related."

Do you know how dragon scale bettas are were bred? Lots of inbreeding. My theory is that breeding daughter to father isn't going to hurt it. Their fry breeding sibling to sibling won't do much damage. If I do it again, then it will do damage. If anyone disagrees, please tell me why. I am interested in genetics.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2013)

hXcChic22 said:


> You're right; they may not care. But you're wrong in that inbreeding does not cause problems, completely wrong. Just because a few may not seem affected doesn't mean the rest won't be. Inbred animals often have numerous problems, which is why it isn't done in dogs and cats (or humans, for that matter).
> 
> I don't agree with the practice, either. If I were trying to produce a desirable, sell-able fish, inbreeding would not be my go-to. VERY experienced fish breeders may have the knowledge and ability to recognize the minute differences in fish produced this way that are healthy and ones that are not, but this doesn't seem a smart practice for an inexperienced breeder.


Rabbits inbreed all the time and nothing is wrong with them. I have to look up the cats and dogs one. Inbreeding has its positives and negatives. 

Jake: Betta man is right, no one was being mean or anything negative. Just stating an opinion. I have been on this forum for a while now and I have learned a lot about fish and how to keep them healthy. My suggestion is that everyone should keep learning about fish, because new things are always popping up about them.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

not to mention that it is my duty to be mean to everyone....


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## TheJakeM (May 11, 2013)

I really have to just write on here one more time, for you have yet again misunderstood me. I did not say you we're being mean, nor did I say that I was leaving permanently. I could honestly care less about what another person says over the Internet, and if you thought you upset me, you are sorely incorrect. I am just taking a break for a week or two; I'll be back, and don't doubt it.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2013)

TheJakeM said:


> I really have to just write on here one more time, for you have yet again misunderstood me. I did not say you we're being mean, nor did I say that I was leaving permanently. I could honestly care less about what another person says over the Internet, and if you thought you upset me, you are sorely incorrect. I am just taking a break for a week or two; I'll be back, and don't doubt it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Misunderstandings can and do happen on this forum. Taking a break from the forum is good because it can get hectic at times. When you said that some people should research before ridiculing, that does come off as you telling people that they are being mean. We are of all ages here, so some people may take a post wrong and others won't. You just have to try to look at the posts from another persons viewpoint.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

As an old Sea Haggy (I'm really not that old, but don't tell Loha) it is my job to either be mean in his footsteps, or clean up after his meanness. 

Inbreeding fish will cause defects. It will not cause them in relatively brief inbreeding, i.e. not generation upon generation. 

Personally I think that stock would be better if the larger breeding organizations were culling appropriately. That they do not cull is a large part of the problem, in my opinion. 

That said those organizations are usually huge and the idea of making good stock is not their main goal. Their goal is more fish= more money. 

For a breeder- better fish= more money.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I agree with obisdian, angelclown, and loha unfortunately 

In the wild, only the toughest survive, so I know I've got good stock.


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## Guest (Aug 20, 2013)

Thank you Betta man. I was hoping that someone would agree with me about inbreeding.


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