# Pressurized co2 in heavily stocked tank?



## Grits

I'm going to order my pressurized co2 this weekend, and I have just a few questions please...

I've been reading everything I can to try and get ready to get it going when it gets here, and I came across an article about CO2 not being safe for the fish if it is a heavily stocked tank. Is that true? Also it said something about if it is a covered aquarium (glass tops) the co2 will form a layer in between the water surface and the glass and prevent oxygen from entering the water. I have to keep mine covered because of cats. lol Opinions?

Also, what is a good ppm of co2 to start at? Should I start low and work up or something?

Thanks!

Stocking (75 gallon):
With Eheim2217

2 Angelfish
12 tetras
4 cories
1 dojo
4 dwarf neon rainbows
1 red tailed shark
2 botia striata
1 common pleco


----------



## jones57742

Gr: I am a planted tank creature, have no experience with pressurized CO2, but have a ton of experience with DIY CO2, and the following "tidbits" are based on significant research as well:



Grits said:


> I'm going to order my pressurized co2 this weekend, and I have just a few questions please...
> 
> I've been reading everything I can to try and get ready to get it going when it gets here, and I came across an article about CO2 not being safe for the fish if it is a heavily stocked tank. Is that true?


No: or a least not think so: many folks have glass cover tanks without O2 diffusion into the tank water.




Grits said:


> Also it said something about if it is a covered aquarium (glass tops) the co2 will form a layer in between the water surface and the glass and prevent oxygen from entering the water. I have to keep mine covered because of cats. lol Opinions?


No: or a least not think so: many folks have glass cover tanks without O2 diffusion into the tank water.




Grits said:


> Also, what is a good ppm of co2 to start at? Should I start low and work up or something?



*The rules of thumb are:*

The typical CO2 diffusion into a tank is yields 2ppm CO2 (based on experience).

A 2L DIY in a 100G tank yields 5ppm CO2 (based on experience).

At 20ppm CO2 the concentration becomes toxic to some fish.

At 30ppm CO2 the concentration becomes lethal to many fish.


*Excuse my "straightforwardness" here but:*

You are starting on the wrong end of the spectrum;

Experience with lighting and fertilization are the way to start;

You cannot just add CO2 and expect to see what you see on the internet: you will wind up with a disaster.

The first thing "to play with is your lighting".

The next thing "to play with is your fertilization protocol".

The last thing to play with is the CO2 concentration in the tank.

TR


BTW:

1 dojo: he is probably not a happy camper: these fish are social creatures: 5 to 5 is the recommended minimum.

2 botia striata: please add at least 2 more.

tr


----------



## Grits

jones57742 said:


> 1 dojo: he is probably not a happy camper: these fish are social creatures: 5 to 5 is the recommended minimum.
> 
> 2 botia striata: please add at least 2 more.
> 
> tr


Looking for more all ready


----------



## Grits

I have 1.7 wpg (4x32 watts of t-8) and dose flourish comprehensive twice a week, and trace twice a week. Excel daily.

My plants grown fine, nice pretty green growth, lush even. But bba attacks them and boom before I know it, those nice pretty leaves are DEAD. I have tried everything else. And I have been assured pressurized co2 will fix my problem.

I added some pics to show you what I mean.


----------



## jones57742

Gr: I am by no means trying to throw cold water on you here (no pun intended) but only trying to help. BTW: you have a nice layout.



Grits said:


> And I have been assured pressurized co2 will fix my problem.


*It will not.*
IMHO you will spend a bunch of money and experience a bunch of grief but have minimal joy.

We used to have a "so called" guru on this Forum who believed that pressurized CO2 would cure a hang nail!

Note the black areas on the plants in the first two photographs and the holes in the plants on the third photograph?: these do no come from a lack of CO2 concentration.




Grits said:


> I have 1.7 wpg (4x32 watts of t-8)


The "big boys" do not get into pressurized CO2 until typically 3WPG or more and generally 5WPG.

You also did not indicate the K values of your lighting or your lighting duration.

Please note that in future purchasing decisions that T8 is pretty much history as the Fed's have mandated T5.




Grits said:


> and dose flourish comprehensive twice a week, and trace twice a week. Excel daily.
> 
> My plants grown fine, nice pretty green growth, lush even. But bba attacks them and boom before I know it, those nice pretty leaves are DEAD. I have tried everything else.


From your comments and response I believe that you are "trying to get to" a nice planted tank and fishies which you can enjoy.

The "big boys", the ones who really know what they are doing and not just "pop off", know what plants respond to "what" ie. lighting types, lighting durations, fertilization protocols, CO2 concentrations, etc and have tons of experience.

It does not take all of this to have a nice planted tank.

The 1st thing that I would try is dry ferts as they are much less expensive than liquid ferts, give you much more flexibility in your fertilization protocol, and are not that hard.

The web sites to research are:

http://www.rexgrigg.com/index.html

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm
and download his planted tank calculator

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2
for ordering dry ferts.


Last items:

What is your lighting duration?

What are the K value of your bulbs?

TR


----------



## Grits

Lighting duration is 8 hours a day. And all 4 bulbs are 6,500k. I know t-8's are a thing of the past. But it's what I have had for a while. I would love to get a 2x 55 watt t-5HO fixture, but with this algae already I'm affraid to upgrade the light. What do you think of that?

I didn't think the dark areas and holes came from a lack of co2. But I would like to know what did cause that. Do you know? The reason I wanted co2 wasn't to help with the plants. It is to help keep the algae away. Everytime my plants get pretty new leaves, black beard algae and brown diatom algae take them over something fierce. 

Excel dose nothing, even when spot treated, and I'm not going to over dose it. And although dipping the plants in h2o2 or excel helps it isn't practical to keep doing that in the long run.

If I shouldn't use co2 how can I get rid of these algaes? 

Thanks for your help!


----------



## Grits

here are some more pics of the plants, so maybe you can tell me what I should do...


----------



## SouthernBelle23

I think co2 could help. And fertilizing. I would start dosing some trace nutrients (you can use Flourish comprehensive) and potassium. If you nitrates hang out below 10ppm....dose that too. You can buy Flourish potassium or use dry ferts in the form of K2SO4 (potassium sulfate). Dry is cheaper in the long run. For the flourish potassium, it takes alot in a larger tank so you'll quickly run out. It's all about balance IME...nutrients, co2, light.

It may be luck, but in my planted tanks with co2 injection (pressurized) I have not had BBA. I have had plenty of it in others though without co2 and with diy co2. Maybe I'm lucky? I don't think so. 

More available nutrients will help the plants grow a bit faster and hopefully outcompete the BBA. If you wanted to try dosing before you get co2, that could be good. 

I also suggest adding more fast growing plants to use up nutrients and light in the tank to outcompete the algae. Anacharis/Elodea, Hornwort (even if you just floated it), Guppy Grass (Najas species), and/or Ambulia are fast growing plants that should grow in your lighting.


----------



## jones57742

GR:

You have a nice look in your tank but once again:


jones57742 said:


> The 1st thing that I would try is dry ferts as they are much less expensive than liquid ferts, give you much more flexibility in your fertilization protocol, and are not that hard.


You have something "funny" going on in your tank which "I cannot figure out" as you should not be experiencing these problems: I am assuming that you have adequate filtration and are accomplishing adequate WC's.

BTW (and I forgot to tell you): 

1) IMHO whatever you do "do not put any phosphate in your tank!".

2) Start at 1/3 of the concentrations per Chuck Gadd's calculator.




Grits said:


> Lighting duration is 8 hours a day. And all 4 bulbs are 6,500k. I know t-8's are a thing of the past. But it's what I have had for a while. I would love to get a 2x 55 watt t-5HO fixture, but with this algae already I'm affraid to upgrade the light. What do you think of that?


Your 6500K bulbs are not good but I would not spend the money on a lighting upgrade.

I would try increasing your lighting duration to 10 hours/day.




Grits said:


> I didn't think the dark areas and holes came from a lack of co2. But I would like to know what did cause that. Do you know?


Not really in your micro-ecosystem but IMHO significant concentrations of Potassium, Magnesium and CSM+B will fix, or substantially fix, these conditions.




Grits said:


> The reason I wanted co2 wasn't to help with the plants. It is to help keep the algae away. Everytime my plants get pretty new leaves, black beard algae and brown diatom algae take them over something fierce.


Hence "there is something wrong with your micro-ecosystem".




Grits said:


> Excel dose nothing, even when spot treated, and I'm not going to over dose it.


Good thinking and not even dosing with Excel might have been appropriate.




Grits said:


> And although dipping the plants in h2o2 or excel helps it isn't practical to keep doing that in the long run.


Yep: In the long run the less maintenance the better: as you will remain a fish keeper.




Grits said:


> If I shouldn't use co2 how can I get rid of these algaes?


Excuse the following but I have said what I would try first.

TR

BTW: When you get your dry ferts double dose with K and CSM+B.


----------



## Grits

Thanks so much for helping. I guess I'll wait on the co2 and see if I can fix the problem without it first. That will be a good experiment type thing anyway. I'll order the dry ferts today and start trying that. And I am going to go by my lfs and pick up a bunch of anachis/elodea too.

Water Hardness & phoshate questions...

As far as the phosphates goes I'm betting that I have too much as it is. Would it be worth it to invest in a phosphate test kit? And if I have too high phosphates would phosguard for seachem or kents marine phosphate sponge be ok to use?The reason I believe my phosphates are high besides the algae, is my KH is 5 out of the tap and 4 in my tank. And I read high phosphate in the water may act as a buffer and lower KH reading. Is that true?

Also, I don't have a test kit for GH but I'm gonna get one soon. If my KH is 5 is it a safe bet my GH is pretty low too. Would some GH booster help/hurt anything?

This is a ton of questions and info and I appreciate the time you are taking to answer all of this. Sorry if I repeat something, it's a lot to keep track of.


----------



## emc7

phosphate buffers are used in many pH regulator products and some "do-it-all" water conditioners, so make a list of everything going into the tank. Its also present in some tap water. I don't know much about plants, but recently watched a talk from a pro. The three macro nutrients that plants and algae use are phosphates, carbon (excel or CO2), and potassium. It seems logical that you should be able to test for them. I think it would be easier to add potassium, that to take out phosphate, but balancing the three is the first thing to try. To avoid hurting your fish, ramp up CO2 slowly and watch the fish. I'm told a slightly higher pH will hurt bba. Adding CO2 usually drops pH.


----------



## jones57742

Grits said:


> Thanks so much for helping. I guess I'll wait on the co2 and see if I can fix the problem without it first. That will be a good experiment type thing anyway. I'll order the dry ferts today and start trying that.


Thanks.

Yes: this is educated trial and error.

Start with 1/3 the values which Chuck Gadd's calculator yields (long story) except double the Potassium, Magnesium and CSM+B (ie. 2/3 Chuck's value).




Grits said:


> And I am going to go by my lfs and pick up a bunch of anachis/elodea too.


Please do not do this.

Indeed plants are better consumers of nutrients than algae but we can only work on one problem at a time and you have plenty plants in your tank as it is.




Grits said:


> Water Hardness & phosphate questions...
> 
> As far as the phosphates goes I'm betting that I have too much as it is. Would it be worth it to invest in a phosphate test kit?


Not at this time.




Grits said:


> And if I have too high phosphates would phosguard for seachem or kents marine phosphate sponge be ok to use?


Please do not do this: let's work on one problem at at a time.



Grits said:


> The reason I believe my phosphates are high besides the algae, is my KH is 5 out of the tap and 4 in my tank.


This is not probably causing the problem.




Grits said:


> And I read high phosphate in the water may act as a buffer and lower KH reading. Is that true?


Please do concentrate on Gh or Kh now.




Grits said:


> Also, I don't have a test kit for GH but I'm gonna get one soon. If my KH is 5 is it a safe bet my GH is pretty low too. Would some GH booster help/hurt anything?


Possibly: please do not do this.




Grits said:


> This is a ton of questions and info and I appreciate the time you are taking to answer all of this. Sorry if I repeat something, it's a lot to keep track of.


NP: it will take a couple of months of experimentation with dry ferts in order to determine if they solve or substantially solve the problem.

If they do not then we can go to the next step.

TR


----------



## lohachata

how to find out about putting co2 in with fish...
get a big cylinder of co2...put it in your room and crack the valve...sit down in a chair and see what happens...you may or may not croak..you are also producing co2 as you breathe..maybe the valve fails and releases too much gas...
the most important thing is to find a proper balance..consider all of the aspects of your tank.....how many fish...how big are they....how much do you feed...how many plants and what species......
then you have to calculate how much co2 you will need to inject into the tank without creating problems...
i am not a believer in having co2 in the home unless it is a fire extinguisher...maybe that is because i have seen death as a result of co2 poisoning....but that's ok...the equipment on the market today is perfect and never fails...


----------



## Mikaila31

If you are that worried about CO2 I certainly hope you have all your tanks on GFCI outlets. Shorting out heater, filters, ect are far more likely to kill, injure you than a CO2 leak. You are submersing electrical devices in water. You can not see, smell, nor taste stray electricity. Once you feel it, its a little too late. Lets just hope those who experience this don't have any underlying medical conditions to which this could prove fatal. 

I would only worry about CO2 if you are housing a full 20+ lb canister in a bedroom. Even then the real danger is not from a fully open hissing canister(a open canister is loud). Unless you sealed the room off best you could the CO2 will dissipate. A room is a confined place, but most houses have airflow(heater/AC) and ventilation. Also you will notice it long before it makes you lose consciousness. Shortness of breath, dizziness, burning of eyes,(the tank hissing because you would have to be deaf not to notice it) I hope this would be enough to get you out of the room. A slow leak is harmless, you will only notice it when you see the cylinder is empty x10 sooner than it should be.

A bad scenario is the tank does a safety discharge. If the tank senses it is over pressurized it will dump all its contents very quickly. This happens most commonly when a canister is overfilled. Or transported incorrectly. First off it will sound like a gunshot. Secondly, it shouldn't be overfilled or fully filled in the first place IMO. No place around me will fill a tank completely full. Even my 20oz paintball canister, they only fill 19oz. Most common safety discharge I have heard about is people getting them filled then transporting or leaving them in a hot car. If you are near a tank when it does this you WILL notice it. If a 10lb tank did this in a bed room, I would suggest you leave the room. If the noise didn't scare you away already. This isn't enough CO2 to harm you, but you may feel some side effect from it. CO2 will be denser towards the floor when it is release in excess like this. 

worst scenario is the tank fails completely. This brings the real danger of CO2, not the CO2 itself but the canister. This is very rare and requires you to seriously damage the tank or for the tank to be very old. An example of this is breaking off the canister valve. If the tank is small (<5lb) this is going to be similar to a safety discharge. The larger the tank though, the more its going to take off like a rocket. I would chain or anchor any large (10lb+) tank down. This is actually required in commercial and educational buildings. You need a cement wall, if you don't have that at least chain it tightly to a cinder-block. The chances of this are rare, but if you have a larger canister not chained down it can go through your wall and most of the stuff in your house.

Lastly, but most common, canisters can hurt you if you drop them on your foot.

In short, while CO2 tanks can certainly be dangerous, the smaller sizes we usually keep in this hobby are quite harmless. When ever my canisters start running low I vent them into the room and am in the room while they are venting. Is it impossible that they won't kill you, No. But I'll worry about electric shorts, CO from old furnaces, leaking gas powered appliances, improperly maintained chimneys, Radon, and Christmas trees; before I worry about my CO2 canisters.


----------



## emc7

CO2 poisoning? Really. Wouldn't you just asphyxiate because your oxygen supply is displaced? 

Looked it up. CO2 poisoning is one cause of hypercapnia with is too much Co2 in the blood which can kill. Breathing one's own exhalations can kill you too. One cause of crib death. 

I have an oxygen tank for bagging fish, and I'm aware of the hazards of pressurized cylinders. But its not big on my worry list. 

I do think its unfair that people who love plants (or planted tanks) and see fish only as a source of nitrogen for the plants have some of the most beautiful, happy, breeding fish you never see for all the greenery.


----------



## lohachata

mikaila...have you ever seen a friend dead from co2 poisoning??.....yeah;i didn't think so..
to me ; it just isn't worth the risk..but then maybe i am just being a wuss about it....i would rather have just mediocre plants..or just maybe let the fish do the job.


----------



## emc7

Everything is risk/reward. Personally, I don't think decorative candles are worth the risk of burning your house down. 

But mainly I don't do high light/CO2 because I'm lazy. I don't want to be measuring ferts and trimming plants every weekend.


----------



## lohachata

same here emc...no candles..i have had serious burns when i was 9...not a fun thing..


----------



## Mikaila31

I am very sorry to hear you have dealt with CO2 poisoning first hand. It is up to the individual to determine whether the risk is worth the reward. Everything in life comes with risks. I feel pressurized CO2 is worth the risk. I have two setups. One in my bedroom and one in the basement, which is a licensed daycare. I have dealt with CO2 leaks/releases in my bedroom without problems. Maybe someday day my view will change. 

I feel MUCH more at risk with a tank not on a GFCI outlet. I'm curious who else here runs their tanks using these. Personally I won't run a tank without one. I don't care if its spending $10 to replace the outlet or buying a adapter/ GFCI power-strip. I of course have had first had experience with the dangers of running a tank without a GFCI. So I can understand where you are coming from with gas canisters. I never want to experience the evil side of the household electrical outlet ever again. GFCI outlets are required in bathrooms and kitchens in any newer house and should be used anywhere that might come in contact with water. It just amazes me how many people can confidently stick their hand in a tank that doesn't have one. For those that don't run them, lets just hope all your equipment never shorts or fills with water.


----------



## guppyart

got to love live current running through your body 

then again we all drive cars which can kill things on impact with minimal effort, and then sell people alcohol without some way of enforcing that they don't drive.
the list goes on and on heck breathing air kills you.

but we don't stop breathing, it sounds stupid but sometimes its best to just ignore the stats and do stuff, if we didn't we wouldn't be where we are now as a world.
there is a difference between precaution and just total all out fear.

also that method general kills the super dumb ones sooooo.








I personally don't have canister co2 mainly cause I am broke  and 2liters work fine for my tank size so far


----------



## emc7

GFCI. Hm. this thread is getting a bit off-topic. Most of my tanks are in the basement. 3 out of 4 upstairs tanks are on 2 GFCI which I installed (replaced an outlet) before I put the tanks in. The 2 outlets upstairs do occasionally trip for no apparent reason and leave my fish with no filtration until I reset them. The ones in the basement haven't ever done that. So maybe I bought bad ones or the basement has less-sensitive ones. One GFCI outlet protects the whole circuit, so when my outside light fried, the GFCI tripped and wouldn't go back up until we went out there and removed the offending fixture (tied off the power with wire nuts). The only time I've been zapped is by a cracked heater and it was pretty mild. I do use 12-outlet power strips that say clearly,don't use around water. If you followed the directions, everything in the fishroom would be those huge, 3-pronged grounded, outdoor cords, timers with annoying flip-down covers and industrial powerstrips.

While were on risk/reward and starting to think individual tank heaters are too risky. I cooked only one tank in 20 year, but now its 2 in 1 year. New heaters seem to be dangerous lately.


----------



## jones57742

emc7 said:


> GFCI. Hm. this thread is getting a bit off-topic.
> 
> I cooked only one tank in 20 year, but now its 2 in 1 year. New heaters seem to be dangerous lately.


em:

As you indicated this thread is getting way off topic
BUT
what brand were the two heaters?

TR


----------



## jones57742

Grits said:


> Hey I have my ferts now and I'm trying to use chucks calculator.
> 
> If I use 500 ml bottle to dissolve the k2so4. Then it says the most I can dissolve in 500ml is 55 grams.
> 
> If I make that solution. how much should I add to the tank at first? I see that the target ammount is 20ppm for k2so4, but I dont know how much to add per day/week etc..


Gr:

I am old and have forgotten:

1) What is the size of your larger tank?

2) Which ferts did you purchase?

TR


----------



## emc7

One was a non-submersible tetra whisper. I don't remember the second one was, I just chucked it in the trash. I got mildly zapped (stings like salt in a cut) by a submersible stealth, which have never given me problems before. The last surviving cory in the tank survived. I am keeping heaters in a angels and ram tanks and just heating the room for the rest.


----------



## Grits

75 Gallon tank

CSM+B
MGSO4
K2SO4

Thanks!



jones57742 said:


> Gr:
> 
> I am old and have forgotten:
> 
> 1) What is the size of your larger tank?
> 
> 2) Which ferts did you purchase?
> 
> TR


----------



## jones57742

Grits said:


> 75 Gallon tank
> 
> CSM+B
> MGSO4
> K2SO4


GR:


I have gone to direct dosing for several reasons.

For the first try lets use:

3.0 Teaspoons of MgSO4
2.0 Teaspoons of K2SO4 
0.5 Teaspoon of CSM+B

and please report back in a couple of weeks.

Place the dry ferts in your filter media.

TR


----------



## Grits

Thanks! Are those amounts daily?





jones57742 said:


> GR:
> 
> For the first try lets use:
> 
> 3.0 Teaspoons of MgSO4
> 2.0 Teaspoons of K2SO4
> 0.5 Teaspoon of CSM+B
> 
> and please report back in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Place the dry ferts in your filter media.
> 
> TR


----------



## jones57742

Grits said:


> Thanks! Are those amounts daily?


NO!!!!

Dose once and report in a couple of weeks please.

TR


----------



## jones57742

jones57742 said:


> NO!!!!
> 
> Dose once and report in a couple of weeks please.
> 
> TR


Gr:

How are the dry ferts coming?

TR


----------

