# Fish Health Problems?



## Embers To Ashes (Jun 13, 2011)

I have a 20 Long (About to upgrade to a 50 g) planted aquarium with two 20 gallon filters. My last remaining guppy, a female, is swimming head down in place. I don't beleive this is a swim bladder problem because she is simply swimming in place about an inch from the substrate in a fixed location, behind a peice of drift wood. I woke up and she was doing this and she has continued for about 30 mins now. Lastnight my other female guppy died. She was slightly bent where her tail met her boddy and her mouth was open. My water paremiters are good with 0 amonia, nitrates, and nitrites.

I added 2 1" congo tetras, a 2.5in paradise gourami, a replacement Dwarf Gourami (Dwarf Gourami Dissease)and a platy to my tank about three days ago. My complete stocking list is:
5 variations of zebradanios
3 platys
2 baloon mollys
1 2" pleco
2 otos
1 2" Golden Wonder Killifish
1 1.5" Yoyo loach
2 Dwarf gouramis 
1 Guppy
2 Mystery Snails
1 Juvi Paradise Gourami


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

New fish always mean a "minicycle" with ammonia spike and often mean new disease. If she lives look for treatable symptoms, if she doesn't, next time QT.


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## Embers To Ashes (Jun 13, 2011)

It is not a disease. She is having trouble passing something. I beleive she is either constapated or a baby is stuck. She is swolen and lumpy in her belly now near her opening and there is something red sticking out. She is no longer swimming in place. She is swimming normaly, but sluggishly and is hiding in some bushy plants and wont come near the front where I could get a better look. Is there anything I can do for her at this point? 

Again, all my readings are 0 and the new fish where quarintened


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If its birth (normal or otherwise) there isn't anything you can do really. You isolate the fish and add hiding places or an anti-septic to the water, but that is about it.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I would just let nature take it's course. That's how I let my endlers do it, and I think the baby is still alive.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

if something red is coming out it may well be a parasite....in which case if it is you will need to treat the entire tank.....


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Treating an entire tank is only a last resort. If it is not giving birth, remove that female first and treat the hospital tank. It is rare that you need to treat the main tank. Just because one has it, it doesn't me that all of them have it. Also, if you treat the entire tank, the meds you use will most likely be antibacterial and your tank will have to be recycled.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2012)

Usually if you don't treat the main tank, the problem that you have had will just reappear. Lohachata is right, treat the entire tank. You have to assume that if one fish is sick that they all are. The other fish may not exhibit any signs of illness, and that is because their immune system is stronger than the one exhibiting illness. This is very true for sensitive fish, like clown loaches. When one is ill with ich, you cannot quarintine the sick fish, you have to dose the entire tank.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

If you've ever heard of wetwebmedia.com, than you might know that Bob Fenner owns it and I believe he owns wet pets which is a store, but I'm not sure. I was told by him that it isn't good to treat the main tank unless necessary. I do not think that it is necessary to treat the main tank in this situation. I would wait till the female is either done or dead and remove her then. If she survives, put her in a hospital tank. Also, it's not good to treat anything unless you know what it is. clown loaches are not really hardy and are very susceptible to ick. The fish embers to ashes has are decently hardy fish. It is embers to ashes' choice who she believes. It is his/her fish and her money to buy new ones if they die, and it is her time spent on recycling the tank. Honestly, my fish had velvet in a tank which is a parasite and I just removed all the fish, put them back in a month later and I had no problems with relapses. Parasites need to eat. If they don't have food, they will die. One fish with a red thing sticking out of it is not a sign that all the fish are diseased. I still say that treating the main tank should be avoided.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

well ;; you are the expert so who are we to argue with you...


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I'm nothing close to an expert, but I asked someone who is.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Whether you treat the tank depends on how contagious it is and how long it lasts in the tank. Some disease that is in the water all the time and only sickens fish when they are stressed and can't be completely eliminated anyway aren't worth treating the main tank.

But a PITA like internal parasites with be a months-long battle. You should treat the sick fish, treat the healthy fish, treat the water, & you might even replace or bleach the substrate and you will still have to do it again when it comes back. Not fun. QT new fish so you don't have to do this.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

If it can be avoided, avoid it.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2012)

emc7 said:


> Whether you treat the tank depends on how contagious it is and how long it lasts in the tank. Some disease that is in the water all the time and only sickens fish when they are stressed and can't be completely eliminated anyway aren't worth treating the main tank.
> 
> But a PITA like internal parasites with be a months-long battle. You should treat the sick fish, treat the healthy fish, treat the water, & you might even replace or bleach the substrate and you will still have to do it again when it comes back. Not fun. QT new fish so you don't have to do this.


I agree with this!


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I doubt it is extremely contagious as embers to ashes has not said that there are any other sick fish yet.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2012)

The other fish could have what the sick fish has, just not showing any signs of illness.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

and this info coming from a guy whose fish had like 3 different diseases at the same time...

never argue with prof irwin corey.....lol

oh yeah......feed it a pea.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Betta man said:


> I would just let nature take it's course. That's how I let my endlers do it, and I think the baby is still alive.


You THINK, the baby is still alive?? Hmmm...


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Betta man said:


> Treating an entire tank is only a last resort. If it is not giving birth, remove that female first and treat the hospital tank. It is rare that you need to treat the main tank. Just because one has it, it doesn't me that all of them have it. Also, if you treat the entire tank, the meds you use will most likely be antibacterial and your tank will have to be recycled.


 Treating the entire tank ensures the stock is cleared, more than likely if it is communicable, not all will show symptoms at the same time.

As a responsible fish keeper, recycling will not be a issue if it is to save your stock.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Betta man said:


> If you've ever heard of wetwebmedia.com, than you might know that Bob Fenner owns it and I believe he owns wet pets which is a store, but I'm not sure. I was told by him that it isn't good to treat the main tank unless necessary. I do not think that it is necessary to treat the main tank in this situation. I would wait till the female is either done or dead and remove her then. If she survives, put her in a hospital tank. Also, it's not good to treat anything unless you know what it is. clown loaches are not really hardy and are very susceptible to ick. The fish embers to ashes has are decently hardy fish. It is embers to ashes' choice who she believes. It is his/her fish and her money to buy new ones if they die, and it is her time spent on recycling the tank. Honestly, my fish had velvet in a tank which is a parasite and I just removed all the fish, put them back in a month later and I had no problems with relapses. Parasites need to eat. If they don't have food, they will die. One fish with a red thing sticking out of it is not a sign that all the fish are diseased. I still say that treating the main tank should be avoided.



How was it, Mr. Fenner was able to diagnose and recommend treatment?


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Betta man said:


> I'm nothing close to an expert, but I asked someone who is.


Not quite sure, anyone is an total expert but it amuses me how you name drop and totally disregard the advice from long time hobbyist here.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Betta man said:


> If it can be avoided, avoid it.



What is your criteria for avoidance?


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

keeping away from it or preventing it from happening.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I actually think the baby is dead. It probably got eaten by one of my bettas. Didn't expect the female to drop because she wasn't too fat and didn't have a big gravid spot. I spoke to him regarding treating the main tank several months ago and he said that if it can be avoided, it should be. It can be avoided in this instance. Which takes longer. Recycling the tank, or starving the parasite while the other fish are out? Both work. Long time hobbyists here vs someone who is a longtime hobbyist, is a collector, has hatchery experience, and is the owner of a big store. I have emailed him about if it is good to treat the main tank with internal parasites or remove the fry. I am waiting for his reply. If he says to treat the main tank, than I am wrong and apologize for any false info that I may have stated.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

Betta man said:


> Long time hobbyists here vs someone who is a longtime hobbyist, is a collector, has hatchery experience, and is the owner of a big store.


Betta man, you do not always know to whom you speak to here, for all the advice/input I have given, you have no clue to who I am and what experience I may have or Like wise people I may be connected to in the hobby.

[/QUOTE] 

I have emailed him about if it is good to treat the main tank with internal parasites or remove the fry. I am waiting for his reply. If he says to treat the main tank, than I am wrong and apologize for any false info that I may have stated.[/QUOTE]

Were you able to give which internal parasite is involved??


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

first of all...you tend to disregard what anybody here may say or tell you...and you keep saying that you have spoken with the true experts in the field.....
i read what Fenner states on his website in the disease section....he doesn't say anything about not treating the tank...in fact , he often says to treat the "system"...
and trust me ; i am not going to believe a word you say unless Fenner himself comes in here and gives the information...
very possibly the red or orange object coming out of the female guppy is camallanus....it is not a baby as baby guppies are born without color..


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

My response was not from Bob, but one of his crew members. The crew member said that it matters what illness, the condition of the fishes in the tank, the size of tank, the severity of the illness, and probably several other factors. He also said that it can get expensive treating the main tank. A 20 long is small enough so that shouldn't be a factor. He said whenever it can be avoided, avoid it. (does that sound familiar or what???) Here's a quote: "Whenever you have a parasite extremely contagious transmitted through the water and difficult to kill like the camallanus worm. But,even then it might still be better to isolate the residents in smaller tanks and thoroughly drain and sterilize the main tank. Often times this is a cost/benefit problem, or a risk/reward problem. It can be very dependent on the specifics. I asked if it would be better to isolate for an internal parasite. Here's his response: Again, it depends. Isolating is always best, but sometimes it's too late by the time you have symptoms and the entire tank is contaminated. See
camallanus worms mentioned above. Once you see the worms, your tank is infested and you can even transfer it to other tanks by using the same syphon or net, and that can take down an entire fish room. I asked if it works to starve the parasite. Here's his reply:
Sometimes. Costia can be killed off that way, but it's still very dependent upon what the parasite or pathogen happens to be. It really needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis.
According to these responses, I think we're back where we were before which implies we are going in circles. This of course means that it is up to embers to ashes to decide and embers has not posted on this thread in a while.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2012)

With most fish, you cannot isolate or they will get worse and die. Baby Girl had three diseases a year ago, I could not isolate her because I only had three clown loaches and another tank that was too small to put her in. So I had to treat the whole tank for the three diseases that she had, and I had to treat one at a time. But anyway, embers to ashes is going to have to treat the whole tank, since the parasite is able to be seen.


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## WildForFish (Aug 5, 2008)

> If you've ever heard of wetwebmedia.com, than you might know that Bob Fenner owns it and I believe he owns wet pets which is a store, but I'm not sure. I was told by him that it isn't good to treat the main tank unless necessary.





> I spoke to him regarding treating the main tank several months ago and he said that if it can be avoided, it should be.





> My response was not from Bob, but one of his crew members. The crew member said that it matters



perhaps you should proof your posts??


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Breeders who sell you sick/carrier fish are part of the problem, not the solution. A responsible breeder will euthanize the whole tank and bleach the system rather than let a hard to treat malady out to his customers. Emulating one who doesn't is not a good idea.

Our advice tends to be along the save the fish at any cost lines because that is what most people with only 1 tank and are attached to their fish want. If you just wanted to buy new fish, you usually don't ask how to treat them.

Stores never treat the "main tank" anymore because it isn't a tank, its a 1000 gallon system that is doing automatic water changes, possibly continuously. Even if they could calculate the right dose, they don't want to spend the money. A lower than effective dose or a shorter time period mean med-resistant infections. So you don't want them to do a halfway try. So yeah, a store is never going to treat the big tank. 

This is why you have to assume every new fish has just been bathed for a week in 1000 different disease organisms and Quarantine IT! Yes, I know, the UV kills 99.5% in the water, but that isn't 100% and not all disease spread via water (see internal parasitic worms). If and only if you are religious about QT you may never need to treat the main tank.


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## Embers To Ashes (Jun 13, 2011)

It looked like about 2mm of intestince where sticking out. It may be the worms that somebody mentioned but I thought they needed a crustacean to grow and I have none in my tank. I isolated the fish and she died two days later.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Could've be birth/still birth complications. Very common. When you touch something hanging off a fish and it moves on its own is when you have to worry.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i would think it to be camallanus worms....the lumpy belly on the female guppy and the red object extending from the vent makes me believe that is what it is...
not to mention that guppy fry do not have color when born...
had embers dissected the female after it died i think she would have found bunches of the worms...


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