# Absolute beginner - help appreciated :)



## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

Hi everyone, the name is D and I have no aquarium nor fish (yet). I have been reading up on this forum and some magazines so I can do things right the first time (at least most of them).
I plan to get my girlfriend an aquarium for Christmas so I am looking starting early so I can get the best products without being pressed for time and getting mediocre quality products later. 
My plan was (in my very newbie thinking) to get the aquarium and everything else keep it at my place then christmas eve, while the lady is sleeping set it up overnight with all the fish and everything in there ! :? Then I found out about cycling.
So now after reading up a little bit on the subject this is a rough idea of what I want to do.
Get a 30 gal aquarium (maybe 20g depending)
Set it up without fish as planned and Cycle it together with the lady. 
More preferably I read somewhere on this site that you can cycle a tank with 1 gold fish in it? I can't find the thread anymore so if someone could kindly point me to it or give me advice on this. Is there an advantage to doing a fishless cycle? Is it bad for the one poor fish?

So I figure with your guidance I should be able to have a good plan and build a decent beginner aquarium. I need advice on absolutely everything and I am very patient to start out very small and learn. I want it to be a freshwater, unplanted for now until I get the hang of things. Please provide me with a shopping list and when I update the post with products I saw while shopping around please suggest the pro's and con's or just a better product. The only LFS (see I'm learning already  ) I have seen around here is a PetCo. Any help with locals is appreciated here. I'll look for some more stores tomorrow and visit PetCo again and post my findings. What are some good website stores I should be looking at? Thanks for your patience and please help me put this together over the next month 
P.S. Watch out for some stupid more newbie questions in the future


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

You're going about things the right way by posting here asking questions, rather than just jumping in and getting it all wrong!

My favorite source of beginner's info is this:
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin.html

As for cycling, I don't think a goldfish is good, because probably you'll want to keep tropical fish, and even if the poor fish survives the cycling, what are you going to do with it then? Because it won't fit in with your other fish later. If you want to cycle with fish, I feel danios (like zebra danios, gold danios, leopard danios) are the best. They are small (about 2" fully grown), cheap, very tough, very active, and would get along well with most other fish you might choose to add later on.


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

Online site that I like are That Pet Place and Dr Foster & Smith. I don't know if biospira is illegal in NJ or not. What fish are you planning on keeping? You should have a filter, your substrate, heater (depending on the fish) and a thermometer


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

You could just cycle it at your house... somewhere that she can't see. Keep the filter on and a few zebra danios in there (I used 3 of them to cycle my 29 gallon tank) Then on christmas eve just take out all but a few inches from the bottom of the water and bring it to her house (this way all the essential bacteria is still there in the filter and gravel and such). Bag the zebra danios for the trip over, and when you have finished filling up the tank put them back in. I think this would work. It seems like it would because I think this is what you do when you are moving a set up aquarium anyway from house to house.

When its all set up, I would suggest letting her pick out the fish the next day. There was a thread somewhere on here, and basically everyone came down to saying that picking out the fish is the best part. Then you can go to the store with her and you guys can pick out your favorite fish to the tank and add them in slowly.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

Yup, fishn00b's idea will work great. I moved a couple of tanks in September and it's not so bad. But remove *all* the water when you move it, otherwise it's very heavy and you risk cracking the tank. It's best if you save all your water for refilling, you can use a new plastic trash can for that, or we used those plastic storage boxes. We also put the fish in the plastic storage boxes. One warning though -- catching zebra danios is not easy! 

It would make a super surprise for when your GF wakes up: one cycled tank complete with some cute little fish!

But the first thing you should add after the initial 3 zebra danios to cycle are 3 more zebra danios (or 3 more of some other kind of danio like gold or leopard, they are all very closely related). Danios are schooling fish and will be at their best in group of 6 or more.

And as for going to the fish shop to pick out fish, I really don't recommend it be done that simply. Many fish are completely incomatible, or get too big, or whatever, and there's no guarantee that the fish shop employees know enough about the fish to give you good advice. It's best to look in the fish shop to see what they have, and then research them on the Web or ask here to make sure they would be all right in your tank, before buying them. I know it's not as fun that way, but if you do it that way you know you'll have a happy healthy tank.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I rather you go through a fishless cycle, but thats just me... plus zebras maybe active and don't get me wrong I do like them, but they just aren't the pretty little fishes you want. I would instead add pure ammonia from the grocery store and cycle it this way by adding it over the next couple weeks, or if you want to shorten in, do a fishless cycle with a product called stability or bio-spira, no other "bacteria starter" products work period. If you do this you could be done cycling in 1-4 weeks, however, doing a cycle with fish and not letting them die is another thing, it could take you 1-4 months instead.


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks for the quick responses guys. Thanks fishn00b and MyraVan now that I know I can move the fish tank after it has cycled, I think I will do it at my place and then move it later (more advice and suggestions in doing this is appreciated). Fishfirst, I think I am going to do the fishless cycle and put fish in after moving the tank. Fishfreaks, I'll look into bio-spira don't think it would be illegal in NJ if it is legal in Pa (in either case who is to know? lol) I went to PetCo today and was told they were closed because they are cleaning house, or rearranging, something like that. MyraVan, thanks for that website its great I'll report back with anything I do or just when I have a question


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

Walmart is your friend, especially when you need food, certain medication and other things. They have cheaper prices than the rest but beware of their fish.


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

Lol lexus. Walmart does have a nice selection of food, and equipment. That is where I buy most (if not all) of my stuff. Though I usually tend to stay away from the actual fish. At the store by me, there isn't anyone in the department, and no one knows anything about them, and seem to be poorly kept. :-( 

Yeah, If you need any certain advice on moving your tank after it's set up just ask. 

About the Bio-spira, it actually might be illegal in New Jersey. I live in New Jersey, and I've been to a number of LFS and chain stores. They all have refridgerated sections (thats where these products are kept) and they don't carry them. This is just from my observations though, and havn't seen any real facts that say its illegal here.


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## fishboy (Feb 26, 2005)

many stores don't bother, I'm from Pa and it's very rare because other products are cheaper. Stability is easy to get though and cycles 7X slower though but thats only one week total


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

Well as famous as Walmart is nation wide it has not gotten a hold of North Jersey and the nearest one from me is about 40 miles away so I'll look online i guess


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

I'm surprised one is so far away from you. The one i have is literally a mile down the road. Keep looking online, and if I find any sites that will sell these products I'll post them.

Although until then... I would set up your tank pretty soon and start cycling it with the zebra danios in there.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

Well, dizzy said he was going to do the fishless cycle thing, but what fishn00b said still goes: you want to get started with the cycling ASAP. The fishless cycling method (adding pure ammonia or a dead raw co.cktail shrimp) takes time, order of weeks, and you want this thing to be ready by Christmas.

Remember: the whole point about cycling is growing the beneficial bacteria that deal with the wastes (pee and poo) that the fish create. Those bacteria live mainly in the filter, and secondarily in the gravel. You grow those bacteria by supplying them with food (ammonia from zebra danios, or a rotting shrimp, or pure ammonia from a bottle) and you have to keep the bacteria alive and healthy during the move, and after you get it to your GF's house. 

Your first goal is to buy all this stuff, set it up in your house, and start adding the ammonia, in whatever form you want. Worry about the other stuff (like how exactly you're going to move it) later.


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

MyraVan what you said is true, I'm going to back to PetCo tomorrow to buy the aquarium (I just came back from there). What are the bare necessities to start the cycle that I need to buy tomorrow? The tank, a filter, gravel, ammonia (or a gold fish whichever one you guys suggest is better, the guy at the fish store said he'd take the gold fish back after I'm done cycling with it if I go that route) and the kits to test the levels? What am I leaving out?

Also, I just got back from PetCo and am leaning toward the 30gal tank from 'All glass aquatic', it is really annoying because I want the long ones and they have a lot of tall ones. Looking at their filters ( I understand that the bio-wheel ones are better) I am looking at the 'Marineland 200b for $39.99. Is it unwise to buy a filter that can treat lets say up to 50 gallons for a tank that is 30g or 20g? I figure I could keep it later on down the road when I upgrade. 

Finally before I make my purchase is there any specific brands I should be getting (or more importantly should be staying away from??) What test kits do I need? A heater? Where do I get the gravel from and what should I look for? Any suggestions and advice is welcome or an alternative source (online) where I could get the rest of the stuff that I need (excluding what I need immediately for cycling) for a better price. 
I guess I'll be making most major decisions today and tomorrow so thank you again for your advice guys.


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

If you can make the trip out to Walmart, I would do that. That is where I got my first tank. They sell a 29 gallon aquarium with basically everything you need to start up. They sell it pretty cheap too... I want to say 150 or so, but it's been a while since I bought it. 

For the 150 dollars you get the aquarium (the aquarium is also the longer type that you may be looking for. Because it's longer you are able to hold more fish because there is more surface area for bad gases to escape), hood with flourescent lighting (i think its like 20 watts), a heater, chemicals to make your first water fish safe, a net, and a cheap stick on thermometer (I don't like the stick on thermometers, they sell one at Walmart that goes inside the tank, is made of glass, and comes with a suction cup that you can stick to the bottom of the tank. It's $1.17).

From there you only need gravel. You can buy gravel from anywhere that they have fish supplies I belive. I would look for the natural colored stones about a centimeter in diameter. For an aquarium of 30 gallons, you would probably need around 40 pounds to make a deep bed of gravel that you can sculp into a nice look. I would stay away from any colored gravel if you can help it, sometimes it flakes out into the water (I have a problem with this in one of my tanks but I can't confirm that the gravel is the reason, but I'm leaning towards it) 

It would be a good idea to buy more chemicals to make your water fish safe. Any chemicals that take out chlorine and chlormine are needed for every water change. Get a large bottle of it if you can. I use treatment in a big yellow bottle from Tetra.

If you do end up buying from Petco, a filter that treats 50 gallons would be alright for a tank the size you are looking at. It just means it can properly clean up to 50 gallons of water. The only difference is that it might have a larger current (the impeller sucks more) and you might not need to change the filter media as often because it's for a larger tank. Stay away from in-tank filters. Personally, I think they are horrible. I've had many bad experiences form Whisper In-tank Filters. 

As for the heaters, I've only used two that I can properly recomment. There is one that I really like, the All-Glass Aquarium heater that comes in the Walmart package. That one works pretty well. The other one I use is a Neptune Heater. This one also works well, I haven't had any problems with it, but I would go with the first one more. 

Lastly, you asked about test kits. If you have the money you can buy a generic freshwater testing kit. This should come with a pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, KH, GH, and maybe some other tests if your lucky. I've seen a test like this at Petsmart for 25 dollars. 

Another good idea is to do some research into live plants. Find out what grows slowly and is easily kept by beginners. It adds alot of depth to your tank and helps airate the water and keeps it looking very clean. I have live plants in my tank, and if I can, I'll post a picture of my tank on the weekend to help you out.

So in conclusion this is what you are going to want to have when you start up your tank for the first time:

Aquarium
Hood with Flourescent Lighting
Filter
Heater
Thermometer
Gravel
Water Treatment Chemicals

Hope that helps... if you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask. Also it might be a good idea to pick up an algae scraper brush. You're probably going to need it ;-)


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

"Stability" is a lot cheaper & easier to find than BioSpira, and it works great. The only thing is that it takes a week instead of a day to work, but that's fine, really. Letting your girlfriend pick out her own fish will be a lot more fun for her than your picking them ahead of time.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

exactly, and you can still use the pure ammonia with stability, stay away from products that have "ammo-lock" or ammonia remover in them (such as declorinators that have this) Aquasafe is probably one of the best dechlorinators out there. I like rena heaters, however neptune I've had fairly good success with. 
Extra filtration is always a plus
Again I would stress not adding a feeder goldfish because of the following reasons
feeders have disease
feeders can die in a cycle
1 feeder goldfish won't be enough bioload to keep the bacteria alive that you will need for a full tank of fish

Have fun with the setup and remember to be sweet about it, a girl that likes fish is a keeper!


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## fishboy (Feb 26, 2005)

also choose tanks that are long not high unless you really want the high look or have size limits. Because long tanks have a wider surface area and more swimming room it means you can get more fish and also fish that like space that wouldn't do well in a high tank. The surface area of a tank affects the amout of oxygen that the water absorbs so more more surface area=oxygen=more fish.


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## maxpayne_lhp (Jan 19, 2005)

Dizzydy, your idea of making a tank over night is very nice of you! Unfortunately it won't work since it takes a while to establish a healthy aquarium.
My man fishnoob came and gave you a great idea of making a fish tank somewhere else and bring out in CHristmas eve, well..., greta but I want to advice you to watch out since moving a water-loaded aquarium can be hard and dangerous.
(Now you know that making an aquarium is not an easy-to-hid job, isn't it )
Did you catty out the project? What fish do you plan to have?
You are more than welcomed to ask questions here! GOod luck!


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I've moved my 125 gallon, 2X55 gallons, 20 gallon, 3X10 gallons all in one day. A 29 gallon fully drained may weigh 30-40lbs, I wouldn't worry about moving it now, its a long ways off and its really not hard to do.


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

No Maxpayne, it certainly is not an easy job, but lucky for me I found this site and knowledgeable people  
Ok guys a little kink in my plan, I went out to NYC to watch a screening and came out to find that my car had been towed So today's priority has been shifted to getting my car free and finding out how much it will cost me and sadly maybe my project.
I guess I will still have enough time if I use "Stability" and the ammonia together to pull it off. fishnOOb I think I saw the 29 gallon kit that you are referring to for about $129 at petco, but now that I have found a couple more lfs I am going to go around a bit. Now my other question is if I have about 40 pounds of gravel in the tank would it support it during the move or would I have to take it out too?


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

When you move the tank, just drain all the water. The glass should be able to support the gravel. When I moved all of my tanks they were just fine. Just make sure when you move the tank, you strap it down in your car so it doesn't spill out everywhere :-D. If the 29 was $129 at Petco, maybe I'm thinking the price is about there. You could always save up a few more dollars and buy a 55 gallon tank :-D. I'm just kidding, it seems like a lot at first, but now after having my 29 for about a year, I'm wishing I bought the 55 gallon tank. But I'm sure if I bought the 55 gallon tank I'd be wishing I bought a larger tank than that.

Sorry to hear about your car. Don't worry about it, once you get that all squared away, you'll be able to pull this off by Christmas.


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

Well I got my car back and I had to pay $185 for towing and I had two $65 tickets for parking!! That makes it $315 and I am so furious with myself right now. Unforutnately that makes me broke and I have to go smaller. I guess I can go bigger in the future but I really wanted it to be bigger. Anyone have advice on this or has started really small and made an easy progression into a bigger tank? My original budget to begin this tank was $400 - 500. Now that you take out that chunk of change I donated to the City of New York I'm thinking I might be stuck with funds for a fish bowl!  What should I do here guys, put off the project for another time or start small now? Very unhappy.


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

Wow, that's a bummer sorry to hear that. I don't know how much walmart sells their 29gallon kits for, but im sure it cant be much. and that comes with almost everything you need. you could always upgrade later on the filter or anything if you wanted to. It's a start :-D


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

I covered plants a while ago. I think plants are good for beginners if you get the right ones. I bought some java fern, hornwort, and wisteria and they are doing great. I was a beginner when I started and they keep the tank looking great. 

Also I went to Walmart this weekend. They sell their 29 gallon kits for 95 dollars. They sell a 20 gallon for 75, and a 10 for 50. I would recomment the 29 gallon kit, as Fiskfreaks said, it gives you everything. I would wait until I could buy that set up, about 30 - 40 pounds of gravel (15 dollars maybe) and you will be set up without fish and plants.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I would look in the paper for used tanks for sale... theres gotta be quite a few in your area. You may find a great deal... I got a 65 gallon tank for seahorses this past week for 50 bucks... which included a tank stand pc lights heater, powerhead, and liverock... pretty sweet aye?


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

Fishfirst said:


> I would look in the paper for used tanks for sale... theres gotta be quite a few in your area. You may find a great deal... I got a 65 gallon tank for seahorses this past week for 50 bucks... which included a tank stand pc lights heater, powerhead, and liverock... pretty sweet aye?


Lucky you, I'm always looking in the paper for a nice offer like that and can never find one


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

Wow that is a good price Fishguru, not that I would have anywhere to put something that big!! Thanks fishfreaks for that suggestion I will be looking in the paper for some deals. Thanx fishn00b that is a great price for a 29 gallon, if I don't find anything the next few days I'm definitely going to do that. As for plants I will be adding those later on down the road and maybe start with artificial ones for now until I get a little more experience and to save money.


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

I think you should still go with the live plants though after you save enough money. If you go to the Aquatic Plants forum, you can find a list of beginner plants that all you have to do is just keep the light on for a few hours a day basically. I wouldn't waste my money on the fake plants. I got almost enough plants to cover my 29 gallon tank for about 20 dollars at Petsmart.


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## dizzydy (Nov 16, 2005)

Out with the artificials then, do I need the plants during the cycling period?


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## fishn00b (Jun 10, 2005)

No, you don't need plants for the cycling period. I don't even know if they would help it, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. For more on plants you should really ask Simpte.


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