# Green algae keeps coming back



## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Hello again. I havent posted on here in awhile but to refresh you, I have a 10 gallon with a couple of live plants, 1 male betta, 6 harlequins, and 3 ghost shrimp. For the first couple months, I was doing partial water changes every week and the gravel and plants would get coated in brown within the week. Eventually that stopped, but now I am getting green algae. Its a layer that coats the bottom, and when i vaccum it, it comes up in big pieces normally, like a big string. Also it coats the glass and i use a magnetic scraper and it comes out stringy. Its not as bad looking as the brown stuff was, but it is a pretty heavy blanket on the gravel just within a week, and back on the plant leaves. The nitrates and nitrites and ammonia levels are all fine. Is there any way to control this? Is there a fish or something I can add to this tank that would eat it?


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## ikermalli (Sep 23, 2007)

You could add some corydoras or some shrimp... Do you have any pictures of the algae?


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## Clerk (Nov 22, 2006)

From the way you are describing it, it sounds closer to blue-green algae which is cyanobacteria, and will continue to reproduce by division unless all of it is removed. The other option is hair algae, however this kind usually sticks to the gravel and will not come up in clumps.


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## Clerk (Nov 22, 2006)

ikermalli said:


> You could add some corydoras or some shrimp... Do you have any pictures of the algae?


The tank is stocked, please do not recommend adding fish...

and cories rarely contribute to ANY algae consumption...


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

I will take some pictures later. It does kind of stick to the gravel, cause when i vacuum i have to move it aroudn a lot to get it free from the gravel. But the fact that it keeps coming back right away could be what you are talking about. If that is the case, how can you completely remove it without completely changing and scrubbing the whole tank and everything?


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## Clerk (Nov 22, 2006)

A picture would help, or take a look at http://plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9 this is an algae identification guide.

Figuring out what it is will help. How many hours are your lights on? Does the tank get any sunlight?


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

From that guide it does appear to be the blue green stuff, and it does come off in sheets like that. The tank is not in direct sunlight and it has a flourescent light on that goes on at about 3pm on the timer and off at 11pm (I leave it on that late cause I seem to have read where to keep the light on for 8 hours and since I usually go to bed at 11, I like it on so I can watch them). Some of the leaves on the plants have died too, but actually not much is growing on the leaves. Its mostly the brown stuff I am scraping off of those. I dont think overfeeding is an issue because while some flakes drop, the ghost shrimp seem to eat those.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Some pics...*

Ok here are some pics:


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## mesapod (Aug 18, 2007)

Ya that does seem to look like blue green algae


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

Definitely looks like cyano.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Ok, so that sounds like its tough to get rid of that. How do I get rid of all of it by doing a partial water change? I mean I am sure even if I vacuum the gravel really well there is probably going to be a trace left on it. Or as long as I don't change the filter, will there be enough good bacteria left even if I do a couple water changes back to back in order to get it all clean? Are those plants pretty much shot? Am I better off just getting new plants after I get this stuff under control?


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## ikermalli (Sep 23, 2007)

Take you gravel and all your stuff out and wash it down and use some vinegar and water to kill the algae


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Isn't that going to kill all the beneficial bacteria thus making me have to cycle the tank all over again if I do that?


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

ikermalli said:


> Take you gravel and all your stuff out and wash it down and use some vinegar and water to kill the algae


this would only be a temporary solution and in taking it all out, would most likely kill the beneficial bacteria in the aquarium causing a new nitrogen cycle once everything was placed back in.

tho you can safely clean your rocks and ornaments with vinegar (rinse them thorougly and be sure they don't even smell of vinegar anymore - if you have a dog or cat, have them sniff it and if they make a face or avoid it, it still needs washing), the issue is that your system is apparently a breeding ground and it will only return. As the article stated in the link provided by Clerk, it is nutrients in the water that is causing this growth - unfortunately, that includes many factors such as overfeeding, light concentration, water movement or lack thereof, or too high a bio-load. Changing some of these factors may inhibit the algae growth - keep lighting to 10 hours per day, feed in small amounts once a day for 2 weeks, do 30% water changes every 3 days and wait and see if this helps in decreasing the growth of this algae. Once you've tried those and it still continues to grow, you might want to add some more live plants to compete with the algae but that requires some more reading as to the best plant to do this with. I don't know much about shrimp but I do know the article points out that amano shrimp (Caridina japonica) love algae. I don't know if this algae would appeal to them - maybe one of our more experienced shrimp keepers can enlighten us to this?


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## MiSo (May 3, 2005)

nothing will eat this kind of algae (bacteria really)

last time i had bga, i treated the tank with erythromycin

http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealin...832&catParentID=18438&scId=18438&ctl_nbr=3684 

you can find it in your lfs in a smaller package. just look at the meds in your lfs for EM as the main ingredient.
make sure to physically remove as much bga as possible before treating.

some ppl also have success with the blackout method.

imo, its just easier to medicate.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Peroxide works, too.

Just take a capful per 10 gallons ( the standard 3% stuff you find in the brown bottle ) and in a week you'll see results. NO MORE than that per week. In fact, you might even try a bit less at first to be safe.
Cyano and many other real algaes really hate the stuff, and it hates them, too! Watch your fish very closely for any signs of distress, and check the pH for any sudden drops you may get if your substrate is old and dirty.

Try manually removing the stuff as much as you can a couple days after dosing, and soon enough it should all be gone. Another week of treatment after it's gone should help keep it gone, and then stop using it. You don't want your tank to get hooked on the stuff.


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

I'd be more inclined to take TheOldSalt's advice - personally, unless it's Ick, I'm adverse to medications and would op for a more homeopathic solution - thnx for the tip TOS - had no idea peroxide was *safe* at certain doses.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I have also used hydrogen peroxide to clean ornaments OUTSIDE of the tank when I had a cyano outbreak that only affected my main rock ornament. I let it soak in my sink with water and some hydrogen peroxide, then I scrubbed the heck out of the rock and put it back in m y tank. A month later it came back and I repeated, and its not come back since then. Granted this was a small breakout on a single ornament, but it was a highly effective treatment with no meds  And I didn't have to worry about how well I had rinsed the ornament, as even it it had some left on it, it would not be enough to harm the tank, and only helpful in the long run.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks for all the input. For now, I just cleaned everything pretty well. I scrubbed all the glass, and did 2 back to back water changes (I had to add more water because I needed to vacuum more stuff out), I got rid of about half the leaves on the plant that looked like they were dead, and now it is all nice and clean. I don't want to add any chemicals or anything right now because I will be going on vacation for a week in a couple of weeks so I won't be home during that time to monitor it. Until then though, I will leave the light off except for maybe a couple hours a day and see if that helps, and maybe feed just once a day. I didnt read your post about using peroxide to clean the ornament until after I did it, but I boiled my rock in water and scrubbed so hopefully that helps. I left the filters untouched so hopefully this tank won't have to cycle again. And hopefully its not going to be all green again tomorrow morning!


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

I knew it would grow back but I didnt think it would that fast! So after I cleaned it all last night very well, I have had the light off all day so it has been almost 24 hours and I jus turned the light on and there is a small patch starting to grow in one area of the gravel, and there is a little bit on the glass already. Should I try to put some peroxide in there now or something else? Like I said, I am going to be gone for a week coming up here in a couple weeks so if I can't really do anything that requires monitoring it then. Or should I just clean it all well in a week again and do that again right before I leave, then try to control this when I get back?


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## MiSo (May 3, 2005)

when i treated with EM, it only took about 5-6 days.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks MiSo. Did the EM affect any of the levels in the tank at all? Maybe I'll go out and get some today. Should I clean the little bit that grew back before I dose it, or will that get rid of it on its own?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

As long as its growing it shouldn't hurt the fish. Just don't kill it and not be there in case the ammonia spikes.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Ammonia spikes would result from the dead algae decaying, right? So if there is just a little in there or none, and I add the EM, then it wouldnt hurt the ammonia then?


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

what type of filtration are you using? and have you tested your tanks for phosphate? when you say your nitrates, nitrites and ammonia lvls are fine - what are the readings?


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

I have a HOB Whisper 5-15 filter. Looking at the tank today, it doesn't look like it grew much (if any) since yesterday. I did some tests today and the pH is 8 (which it always is), Nitrites are 0, Ammonia is 0 (actually looks like it is between colors of 0 and .25, probably related to the two back to back water changes the other day), Nitrates are 5. But in the last couple months when I test it every week or so, Nitrites and Ammonia have been 0, and when I have been doing the partial water change the Nitrates are usually around 10-15. I have not tested for phosphate. I did have something to deflect the water flow (the trick I read on here with putting a half of a plastic bottle under the flow so the water is calmer for the betta) and after reading here, I learned that does not affect the water flow rate whether that is on there or not, but I have it off for now. I also noticed the temperature lately was a little warmer even though I did not change the thermostat on the heater, it was around 82, so I turned that down a little bit and now its around 79-80.


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

your ph is a bit high for the betta and harlequins which usually thrive in slightly acidic to neutral conditions but since they have been in 8 all this time, I wouldn't change it right away - ph needs to be changed very, very slowly in teensy increments or you can cause ph shock which is deadly. 

you have 10 inhabitants in a 10 gal tank with a very small filter. subpar biological filtration unit will also add to this algae problem. also, many here would say any schooling species such as your harlequins shouldn't be kept in anything smaller than 20g and i'm inclined to agree usually. 

you may wonder what this has to do with your algae problem. a great deal. algae blooms due to nutrients in an aquarium: your system is overstocked with a small filter and most likely stressed out inhabitants due to space and a higher than normal ph. 

since schooling fish are best with at least 6 of their own kind, I recommend the following to help your situation otherwise, you will continue to have this problem no matter how much you medicate.

keep the 10g with its current filter and keep the betta in it and add 2 or 3 dwarf frogs. 

and get a 20g for your harlequins with a bigger filter (always get the next lvl filter than manufacturers claim) because when they post those ratings on the boxes of filters, it is under clean conditions with no fish, no bio-load and no plants - which is not realistic. 

or you can simply return the harlequins to your local pet store and keep the betta in the 10g.

or as a last resort, get a bigger filter for your current setup and see if that doesn't remedy the problem - not the best solution, but will definitely improve the living conditions of your 10g inhabitants.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks for your response. I actually got the idea of adding the 6 harlequins from people in this forum. I have a couple threads about it a few months back asking a bunch of questions about what to add to this tank and thats what the other memebers came up with. They also said ghost shrimp don't add much of a load and I could put 6-8 of them, but I just have 3. I would like to get a bigger tank but don't have room for it at this point. I guess I am a little confused about the overstocking part. I thought that as long as nitrates are under 40 that they are not harmful for the fish. Since I have gone up to two weeks without doing water changes, and when I went that long, the highest the nitrates ever were was 20, and the ammonia and nitrites are always 0, doesn't that seem like the filter is keeping up with it?

Thanks.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> Ammonia spikes would result from the dead algae decaying, right? So if there is just a little in there or none, and I add the EM, then it wouldnt hurt the ammonia then?


 You are prob. right, but you really don't want to medicate when you are not watching. Sometimes antibiotics will have a detrimental effect on the biology of the filter. If this happens, you could get a "mini-cycle" and need to be home to do water changes.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

I'll just do a couple more changes before I go then and try to do one the day before I go and deal with the algae when I get back. On a side note, I will be gone a week, and was thinking of using an automatic feeder to drop the flakes in. Is that a good idea or not?


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## ikermalli (Sep 23, 2007)

> keep the 10g with its current filter and keep the betta in it and add 2 or 3 dwarf frogs.
> 
> and get a 20g for your harlequins with a bigger filter (always get the next lvl filter than manufacturers claim) because when they post those ratings on the boxes of filters, it is under clean conditions with no fish, no bio-load and no plants - which is not realistic.


Yeah s/he is right but if you cannot get a bigger tank then you should sell them to someone who will take good care of them or put them up for adoption.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I wouldn't trust a new clockwork feeder (that you haven't tested by watching it for a week). Unless you have fry, your fish can go hungry a week. Its safer than risking overfeeding. I like the ones that drop flakes better than the pyramid ones. Those dissolving feeders can raise your pH and you can't control the food amount.


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## MiSo (May 3, 2005)

Quote:
GRAM-NEGATIVE AND GRAM-POSITIVE BACTERIA.

Bacteria can be divided into two groups, either Gram-
negative (G-) or Gram-positive (G+). This classification is
based on if the bacteria stains (+) or not (-) in a special
staining technique - the Gram staining (invented by Christian
Gram). Positive or negative staining reaction reflects a
fundamental difference in the structure of the cell wall of
the bacteria.
ERYTHROMYCIN IS AN ANTIBIOTIC.
Erythromycin is more efficient towards G(+) bacteria
than G(-). It is one of the safest antibiotics, meaning that
it does not affect plants, fish or animals. Blue-green
bacteria belongs to the G(-) bacteria but it is a special case
with respect to sensitivity to antibiotics (i'm on thin ice
here, but I think I am correct). They are more sensitive to
erythromycin than other G(-) bacteria. Fortunately, the
bacteria important for the nitrogen cycle (your biofilter) are
of the G(-) type and are much less sensitive to erythromycin
than the blue-green bacteria. So your biological filter is
"fairly" safe.
The reason that some tanks experience an ammonia peak
after treatment with erythromycin is (probably) not because
the biological filter is non-functional. It is more likely
that it is because of the high content of protein released
from the dead blue-green bacteria which is broken down to
ammonia and/or nitrite by the "good" nitrifying bacteria in
your biofilter. This boost of protein to be broken down upsets
the finely tuned balance of different bacteria in your filter.
(Actually, if you killed of all bacteria in your tank and
filter, you would never get ammonia).
This quote was written by Tony Clementz, and can be found on The Krib.


cliff notes:
your bio filter will be fairly safe, but change water because dead bga can/may foul your tank.
i would remove as much manually as possible then medicate.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Thanks for the quote. Even 'fairly safe' I wouldn't do without being home to watch.


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## dm800 (Nov 3, 2007)

*Update*

When I came back from vacation, it was covered in the algae as expected. I scrubbed the walls down and cleaned up the gravel and started dosing it with Erythromycin. As per the instructions, I did it for 5 days and just gave the last dose. There has not been a trace of the algae when it normally started coming back within a day or so. Now that I am done with the dosing, I am just wondering if it is supposed to stop growing, or if it will come back and will I have to keep dosing it?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Nuisance algae always seems to come back eventually or you get a different one. Maybe green spot, black beard or hair. Every time you feed an algae supplement food, you seed the tank with new strains. Enjoy your clear time. I can't see dosing anti-biotic continually. If you do, I bet it stops working. After all, you only need 1 antibiotic-resistant cell to reproduce.


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