# new tank in an established fishroom.



## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

My normal procedure is to have several box or sponge filters in each tank. When I get new fish or need to start a fry grow out tank, I grab a couple of well used filters from other tanks, throw them in and I'm off and running. Never a thought about "cycling". I'm sure a mini cycle occured and I may have even had losses because of it, that I just marked up as "one of those things". Didn't even think about the cycle. So I'm wondering if I am just too casual about this. How do other multi-tank fishroom people handle this?


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## <3~Pleco~<3 (Jan 31, 2009)

When I set up a new tank, I usually put the dirty water from my other tanks' water changes right into my cycling tank. This way it gets the poop without harming the fish.
And then I monitor it from there.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

i dont cycle. never had the need to. living in india has its perks!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Pleco, my understanding is that very little bacteria is in the water. Most is living on the gravel, in filters, etc. It must be attached to something. 

Zakk... What about India makes it so you don't need to cycle.


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## sublime guy (Mar 28, 2009)

wait y whats so special about india


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Maybe the tap water is full of nitrogenous bacteria in India?

I do what ron does. I try to keep 2 or more filters on each tank and put at least one used on any new tank. I will often move the fish from 5 to 10, 10 to 15 etc. and move a filter with the fish and add another.


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## <3~Pleco~<3 (Jan 31, 2009)

Yeah, I know that the water doesn't contain all the bacteria that filters and the gravel itself does. But all the poop from the gravel that I put into my other tanks, kind of act like how you would do a cycle with fish - but you aren't adding any fish. Right?
Cause doesn't the poop create ammonia?


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

well the big diff here is that the water isnt chemically treated. its fish friendly. in the 15 years i;ve been in his hobby, i have had the need to cycle. i buy everything and setup on the same day. all i do is aclimitize the fish for a few hours and in they go.


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## <3~Pleco~<3 (Jan 31, 2009)

your so lucky. My water here is so full of chlorine and other stuff we don't know about...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

yes, poop breaks down over time and creates ammonia. Thats why gravel washing can slow down climbing nitrates.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

if you got a well nearby u could use that water pleco.....


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## <3~Pleco~<3 (Jan 31, 2009)

haha, well i live in the city, so i don't know where a well would be if there even is one. But the water here is okay.... it just costs some extra money to buy all the de-chlorinators for it to be safe for fish.


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

yea....that can suck....i dont even dechlorinate as well any more  used to for a while but not anymore


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## Guest (Jul 22, 2009)

like i said.....living in india has it perks.....i live in the city as well but we get our water from the freshwater rivers.....so its already jumpin with goodies.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Zakk, I'm confused. (which is normal for me, LOL). You say you don't need to cycle because your water isn't chemically treated???? You know that has nothing to do with cycling. Right? Am I missing something?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

while i never actually cycle a tank...ok..i say i don't ; but i do ; but i don't.......
tomorrow i will be tearing down 2 of my 10 rearing tanks with my schleromystax barbatus juvies....in their place i will be putting a 40 gallon breeder...all fresh water and new filters..a little chlor-gone and in go the fish... there are only about 50 fish going into it so i am not too worried about the bioload..my biggest worry will be that the temps may get too high.most of the tanks in my fishroom will stay around 78-82 in the summertime.. about 8 or 10 degrees too high for them..especially for my breeders... they need a new set up also..same as the others..no real cycle...
to me.... i always see folks flippin out bacause one or more of their reading isn't making sense to them.. they don't say a word about the fish (if they even have them)..it they are running in a tank with fish ; you keep an eye on the fish..if they are acting pretty normal ; they are just fine....
i always say....."KEEP IT SIMPLE".... the more you mess with stuff ; the more problems you create for yourself..
i am not saying folks should not take the time to cycle their tanks..just because i do it ; doesn't mean you should.....but i think it is most important to pay attention to the fish...


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## Dragonbeards (Dec 14, 2008)

Mmm... my water comes from the ground. No chemicals or nothin, it's nice. I just stick some old gravel or a filter or something in the tank and call it good. Or, in the case of my sister's tank, fill it with water, add fish, vola, your done


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok dragon..it is spelled "viola"....dumb french..don't they know that viola is pronounced vi-o-la and not walla...........................lol


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The whole 'cycling' thing is a big deal for beginners because they always overcrowd and overfeed their first tank and have no place to move anything. They don't believe they need a water change unless they see a test result. Probably because the bottle of additive said "you will never change water again". The best thing about fishless cycling is it makes people take a couple weeks to plan their stocking. I've done tanks without cycling but I've also had mysterious crashes. You get less of that if you use old filters but you risk moving disease from tank to tank. I have had some trouble with apistos and rams and wondered if I should start everything new in case I have a virus in my tanks. 

I have to agree with lohachata on one thing. *The best thing you can do for your fish is to really look at them every day*. See whose eating or not, whose being picked on, look for signs of distress, sniff out and fish out dead fish and siphon out obviously uneaten food. If you watch them every day you will be able to tell when something changes.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

LOL Ron. the stuff that most people are on in the states isnt ready for anysort of life. you guys can drink water right out of the taps.....out here it quite doesnt work that way. What EMC7 said is the closest to the simpliest explination. the water here is ready with nitrogenous bacteria since its drawn from a freshwater stream, run through your regualr filters to remove objects, treated to chlorine and pumped to the houses. keep in mind that the water department is run by the govt here. these guys are scrooges.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Zakk, whatever bacteria is in your water is killed by the chlorine. I don't see where you are anymore exempt from cycling than anyone else.


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

Ron - I do what you do.
lots of sponge filters and box filters running, so setting up a "new" tank usually consists of a sponge filter from an existing tank and a handful of java moss or xmas moss.
If I'm feeling really extravagant I'll throw in some water sprite or anubias or even water lettuce :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

am not kidding ron. i understand your disbelief but that the truth....i have never cycled....not once. i have had fish dyin on me from infection and colder water temp (lost 12 corry in one week) but apart from that, none of me or my bunch of friends have ever cycled a tank.


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

I think the distinction here is between "_the tank is cycled_" and "I _cycled_ the tank".
if your tank has zero ammonia and nitrIte, and detectable nitrAte - it has "cycled" as in "_the nitrogen cycle bacteria have become established in sufficient numbers to provide a healthy environment for my fishes_".

In the past 20 years or so, we've started talking about "cycling" our tanks - usually meaning stocking the tanks slowly during the period of time it takes for the bacteria populations to establish themselves in our filters (and on the various surfaces and substrates in the aquaria). This is often voiced in terms of "I cycled the tank" which tends to amuse me - its kinda like "I grew my lawn" -- I really didn't have much to do with it, the grass grew on its own. :mrgreen:

While I personally feel that the "cycling" process is an organic part of the timeline in almost all aquaria, that doesn't mean I feel that all aquarists notice the time period when the nitrogen in there tanks is in a format other than nitrAte (I think about 60% of the people with "fish tanks" in their homes don't even know that there is nitrogen in the water in those tanks).
(long before the aquarium literature started talking about "cycling", people kept aquariums (granted, this was also in the dark ages when "old" water was considered better than new water and water changes were considered "bad"))

*So - if you don't "cycle" your tank (in terms of "I think I'll cycle a tank this month" ) - does it cycle ?* 
I think in most cases it does - again, I have yet to say "I think I'll grow my lawn" - but my wife has to keep cutting the darn grass. :mrgreen:

Same with aquaria - I suspect that Zakk's tanks are cycling - most of the fish he has listed in his profile are not fond of nitrIte or ammonia  - but I also suspect that it happened quickly and without any direct intervention from him (this is where his water may make a difference)

In my case, I tend to recommend that my customers "cycle" a tank with a few small hardy fish for a few months, because I feel that a large percentage of LFS fish don't survive measurable ammonia and nitrite, especially combined with "newbie" overfeeding  Do I have successful customers who've never "cycled" a tank ? Yes. I also know people who drive their cars with no driving lessons and no real knowledge of the laws or rules of the road (worse, that decribes about 90% of boat owners). That doesn't mean its something I would recommend to others.

As far as Lochachata's tanks - I think he changes 50000% of his water every second, so fish in his tanks never ever ride a bicycle anyplace (his fish ride segways).

remember folks - never cycle without your helmet !


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

lol Red u do have a valid point there. if my tanks are indeed cycling, its happening at a faster speed.

i used to keep tons of live bearers before this, mainly swordtails. this stock list you see in my sig, are pretty new. got them 3 months ago.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Zakk, how do you know it was cold water that killed your fish. Maybe it was because your tank was not cycled! Have you tested for ammonia/nitrite? Red, I agree with what you said except the 60% of people not knowing about nitrogen. I would raise that to about 95%. I would venture to say that 75% of the members of this forum don't know what the nitrogen cycle is. And I consider the members of this forum to be among the most knowledgable hobbyists.


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## smark (Dec 2, 2008)

I pull some of the water from an established tank and put in a sponge filter from an established tank add some fresh water wait a day and add fish. No problems as of yet. I just added 25 gallons from my 50 gallon to my 75 gallon, plus sponge filter when setting up. all went well. With six aquariums its not hard to find cycled water.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The reason you have to cycle a tank is the absence of bacteria that eat ammonia and nitrite. From a deep hole in the ground or a municipal that has deliberately killed every living thing in the water, there is very little useful bacteria in the water. If you take water from a natural body full of decaying plants, animal waste, even live fish pooping, I'd expect you to at least get a good seed of the 'good' bacteria.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

LOL. the corys came to my tank after 2 months of the tank being running and a outbreak of columninaris  i remember this very well cos this occured when the rains started of here. my tanks in summer with out a heater are at 80F or 32C. with the onset of the rains, the water temp fell to 24C or 68F. now, this being the ideal temp for spawning, my male black swordtail went nuts and started killing the other male in the tank. once i moved the black male to the 15 gl, the deaths stopped, but the cory kept dying. after that lil episode, i installed heaters in all my tanks and have kept them at a constant 80F. i still have one julii cory in the 25 who is happy and healthy. cory by default like warmer water. man i couldnt have a bath in the water if it was below 30C.

yes Ron...i do check for ammonia and nitrites. i use the liquid test kits and not the master kit. i use individual test kits.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

You will get a little bacteria from water... not much! Most of it is attached to gravel, filters, etc. Old water from an established aquarium does very little good. Also water from a "natural body of water full of decaying plants, etc.... very little good.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Wait!!! hold on here, he says he lives in INDIA I think that explains everything. Unlike America india does not really have clean potable drinking water everywhere, I don't think they even have a unified delivery system. So here is my theory. Zakk is right, his tanks never cycled because it's been already done. bacteria lives in the pipes and there is enough waste product in the local water supply system to keep them alive. When he fills the tanks with local water of course a bit of bacteria comes off the pipes and goes into the tank. he even said "the local water isn't chemically treated" so chlorine isn't in the system.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

no we do treat it with chlorine but not to the extent i have seen when i was in FL. its WAY lower. 

the resoviours/sump where the water is kept, its stored for days on end before its supplied out. if there is a cycle happening, its happenin in there. 

water thats supplied to us is stored in the resovoirs, left to settle the sediments, cheap chlorine is added to the water, left for 15 days and then pumped to holding stations that supplies it out. so, if there is a cycle happenin, am pretty sure its happening in there.

PS....these resovoirs are open air and HUGE.....if leaves and stuff can help with a cycle....then i now know where this is happening.....but it sure isnt happening in the tank. i just ran a test on the tap water and here are the readings:

pH: 7.5
NH3: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 25

These are from the same mug of water and each test is an seprate kit.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

yea it stuff we get needs to be filtered.....i use a UV filter for drinking water hooked up to my tap in the kitchen.....or like most people, a Candle Filter. its not that the water is impure, its just something we are used to. why do you think most tourists here stick to bottled mineral water?


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## <3~Pleco~<3 (Jan 31, 2009)

Something else I do when cycling a tank is squeeze the sponge from my filters into the tank. Is this doing more or less than the dirty water?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Zakk said:


> the resoviours/sump where the water is kept, its stored for days on end before its supplied out. if there is a cycle happening, its happenin in there.
> 
> 
> Here is the key to this conversation. You have reservoirs and sumps that are cycled. The reservoirs in the US are cycled too. The bacteria is living on solid objects in the reservoir. NOT IN THE WATER!!! The water that comes from that resovoir has nothing to do with the cycling process. A very small amount of bacteria may be in the water by accident and it may be enough to start the cycling process. But the water is not cycled. You don't cycle water... You cycle filters... Zakk testing your tap water has nothing to do with water in your tank. The important test would be 24 hours after you set up a new tank with fresh water (nothing to seed the tank other than the water). Put in some fish and see what the test results are.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2009)

aight i get where you coming from. 

if thats the case,

let say i broke down my tank, washed it down, bleached it, threw away the old colored gravel, put in brand new, never been used before gravel (this is also washed and bleached), installed a brand new filter and set up the tank and popped the fishes in this. this should start a cycle again?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

yes it should start a new cycle


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

and if the tank is indeed cycling, i should notice spikes in ammonia? what are the signs am looking for? dead fish? cloudy water?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Zakk, you are getting it!!! There are many articles on this forum and others about cycling. Go read, study and come back with questions. Google "nitrogen cycle".


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

i did that Ron.

what i described in that post was not hypothetical. thats EXACTLY what i did with the 25gl before i put the angels and rams in there Ron. i did not have any problems. the only fish i retaind from the old setup is the cory. any ideas as to how or why i do not seem to have lost these guys?

like i said before, i have never had to cycle my tanks. EMC might be right that there is a cycle happening way faster than what people say. 

I also setup 2 tests last night: 

1: a 5gl tank, bare bottomed, without a filter, popped 2 of my barbs in there last night. they are doin fine. test results:

NH3: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 25

Will retest the water at 2AM my time to see if there is a difference.

2: a 3gl bowl, just water. Test Results:

NH3: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 25

both the readings are same. how? or why? technically, the 3 gl shouldnt have nitrate readings right owing that i am 1: not starting a cycle, 2: i have no source of NH3 in there to kick off a cycle. ideas?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

It's not unusual to have nitrates in tap water. That doesn't bother me. It also doesn't bother me to have the same readings in both tanks at initial setup. It will take a little while for ammonia to start to show up. If the 5 gal. has no ammonia after 24 hours.. then that does bother me...I don't have an answer. Let us know Zakk.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

will post back in 4 hours time on the NH3 in the 5 but why would the lack of ammoia bother you ron?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Because that's not what I expect. There should be ammonia in a new tank that has not cycled. If there is no ammonia, then I am totally confused and I will have to admit that things really are different in India.LOL


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

What I am not sure of is why it is so hard to believe that 0 Nitrite, 0 ammonia, and 25 nitrate is not considered "cycled." 

My tank was "cycled" at 0, 0, 10. 

The water comes cycled. It is just not that hard to understand.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Welcome back OB! havent seen you in a while.

Ron,

i understand that you find it hard to believe but the truth is this: I Have Never Cycled A Tank. Never had the need to.

Lets lok at this way Ron, shall we. If i were to move to another country, lets say china, and expect the water params to be the same as my home town, that would be unrealistic. water conditions, like weather, vary from place to place. Apart from Obsidian, WM_Crash has also never had the need to cycle. These two members are within the continental USA.

No offence meant at all what so ever Ron. i hope you understand that. am not being argumentative about this. i understand that you, being in his hobby for as long as you have, have come to expect certain things to go a certain way and your confusion is well founded. if i were in your place and had a 28 year old telling me he/she has never had to cycle a tank, i would be confused as well and wouldnt believe him/her and laugh my guts out all the way back home.  i am considering opening a fish farm and have done my research on this Ron and trust me when i say, the water we get here is fish ready and friendly. it maybe cause we use river water. it maybe cause we dont add all that many chemicals to clean out the water. it may well be that we are just plain old lucky. 

I will post back at 2AM IST, which is 4:15 away.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Update:

lil over 24 hours since 5gl setup. filter less. Readings:

NH3: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 25

thoughts, comments?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Obsidian said:


> The water comes cycled. It is just not that hard to understand.



I'm going to say this one more time... Why is THIS so hard to understand??? WATER DOES NOT COME CYCLED!!!!!! It is impossible for water to be cycled. The term "cycled" means to encourage the growth of this bacteria. The cycling bacteria does not live in the water. It lives on a hard surface. It is not free swimming, so to say the water is cycled means that either you don't understand the process or I don't. (And it is certainly possible that I don't. LOL)


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Plants? Substrate? When I see nitrate rise without ammonia appearing, I'll believe the tank cycled itself. I can believe that your water system doesn't kill everything like ours does and I could even believe they were adding something like Prime if consumers were complaining that the water tastes like piss (ammonia). Or even something like Bio-spira. Usually the bacteria get added to the waste water in the treatment plant, but one town's wastewater is the source water for the next one downstream. Even in my country with its public disclosure laws, stuff we don't know about gets added to water.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

ron, bacteria levels in water are low compared to substrate, but there is bacteria in old water. Thats how it colonizes new filters. I would rather move one little piece of sponge than 30 gallons of old water, but both will seed a tank.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi Zakk. Your readings support what you say. I totally do not understand... Zakk, I want you to understand that I am not wanting to argue either. I believe what you say.. I just don't understand. My problem is that this is a subject that I thought I knew a little bit about. I try to give advice to people about cycling and this goes against what I thought I knew. I need to either understand this or quit giving advise... Again Zakk, I believe you. You have no reason to lie about this. There is a logical answer to this. Please help me try to figure it out... The answer may just be that I don't know what I'm talking about.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

emc, no plants, no subtrate, nothing. the tank is bare bottomed. just 2 barbs in there.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

EMC you are correct. There is a little bacteria in old water. I have said that several times. But I don't see it being enough for an instant cycle... I like your other idea tho. Maybe they are adding Bio-spira or maybe even a commercial form of Stability. Maybe that is the ticket.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

Emc,

we have no such laws here. the water plants are run & controlled by the govt. out here, getting info from the govt is as good as pissing on a rock! apart from taxes though. they give out that info real easy sometimes with out even askin what i owe them! what ever they are treating it with is helping with an instant cycle. am pretty sure they have *NO *clue that they are doin it. if they did, trust me, they'd come after us to pay them for it!

Ron,

if i ever find out what it is, i will let you know. i am planning a trip next weekend to a damn near by. maybe a few greased palms will help loosen the tongues. i understand where u are coming from on this Ron. what i just said, goes against everything anyone has stated on the topic. i wish i had an answer to it.

Will definatly keep you posted if i ever get an answer.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Thanks Zakk. It may be, as EMC has suggested, some type of "engineered bug". That is the best answer I have heard so far... Makes me think maybe I am not crazy. LOL.


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

belive me Ron you are not crazy. 

my barbs are back in the 15 with the other 3 and the fire mouths. 

2morrow is WC day! yay! 

LOL!  random rave. i need sleep. goodnight! its 3:30 in the morning! gonna go watch Race To Witch Mountain and sleep!

wait....shouldnt that be good morning?!?!?!? but when i wake up its afternoon....and yet i say good morning so guess its still goodnight!?!?!?!?!? not enough coffee in the system to help me think straight and thats after 6 mugs of coffee! 

enough Zakk! go to sleep. yes. good idea!

Cheer!


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Ok back to some basics as I understand them:

Ammonia: Poisonous to fish- Bacteria convert this to 
Nitrite: Poisonous to fish- Bacteria convert this to
Nitrate: Not so poisonous to fish and safe at low levels in the tank.

Cycle happens when all 3 steps have occurred. 

When you have nitrate in the water it is able to convert the ammonia and nitrite fast enough that it is of no concern for the fish. This is why once you have completed the cycle if you add ammonia to the tank it will be undetectable within 24 hours, usually faster. 

If you already HAVE nitrate it will still convert the ammonia and nitrite, that is pretty much what it DOES in the cycle. 

Because the nitrate is already there, the bacteria that you are looking for (ron) have already been taken care of. Thus the cycle is complete upon introduction to the tank. 25 Nitrate can handle the ammonia and then nitrite created by the fish waste just fine. 

That is why I am having a hard time understanding this discussion. The bacteria are all taken care of, the fish are happy, it's all good. 

I suppose the true test of this would be to have fish cycled water with a nitrate of 25 and Zaks pre-fish water that comes out of the tap at 25 and see what happens when the same amount of ammonia is added to the tank. If both convert it at the same rate then it would prove me right. Since we all know I am always right we can skip this step. [Okay even I couldn't type that with a straight face, keep laughter to a minimum please].

Zakk- When I said my tank was cycled at 0 0 10 that was not an instant cycle. I fishless cycled the tank in question (from scratch). I do live in the USA and am subject to all of the water "messing with" as the others here  When I change the water weekly my nitrate rarely goes above about 15, usually hanging out at closer to 10. Some of my tanks have a higher bioload than others, but this is true for all of them.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Obsidian said:


> Ok back to some basics as I understand them:
> 
> Ammonia: Poisonous to fish- Bacteria convert this to
> Nitrite: Poisonous to fish- Bacteria convert this to
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

actually, OB's post makes perfect sense. am not gonna go looking for pure ammonia. these things are stocked and sold at chemical warehouses and sold by the barrel! 

yes i am still awake! Watchin the movie didnt help a bit! Still raving! 

Ob how is Tara?


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I am aware that the water itself is not cycled. The point is that the nitrate is there, the fish are producing ammonia, the nitrate takes care of it. Thats all that matters.


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

Obsidian said:


> I am aware that the water itself is not cycled. The point is that the nitrate is there, the fish are producing ammonia, the nitrate takes care of it. Thats all that matters.


Nitrate is the end product - nitrate in and of itself doesn't "take care of" the ammonia -- it is what the ammonia becomes as it is processed by the bacteria.

Think of it this way - yeast turn sugar into alcohol in beer.
If I give you a coors or Sam Adams and then put a spoonful of sugar in it - the beer isn't going to suddenly have a higher alcohol level. The alcohol doesn't remove the sugar.(I'm pretty sure that the pasteurization process means that there isn't any active yeast in beer)

In an aquarium, the filter bacteria are like the yeast in beer, and the ammonia is like the sugar, and the nitrate is like the alcohol -- its the end product of a process.

Personally, I'm guessing that the less processed water in India is containing natural enzymes or amino acids that are speeding up the bacterial process and allowing the bacteria to almost instantly cycle the tank. (I've seen corals in reef tanks perk up when I used natural seawater for a water change, even though it was chemically similar to my artificial seawater -- I think there were amino acids and enzymes that they "enjoyed")


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Thank you Red.... I have been noticing OB's reference to nitrate "taking care of it" myself but I just passed it off as a typo or something. OB obvisouly knows a lot about the cycle but is missing something there. I think this illustrates what a confusing and misunderstood topic this is... BTW, I like your idea of amino acids or something. Emc suggested earlier that a produce like Bio-spira is being added to water. I can't see them going to that expense but who knows. Something like that is going on. There is a logical explanation. But...We may never figure it out.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

and this whole thing started with me making a statement! lol!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Zakk, I appreciate your making that statement. I think this conversation is what this forum is all about. The important thing is that your fish are doing well but the quest for knowledge is what has driven me... And thank you for being patient with me through this thread. It's kinda cool to now have a friend that lives in India...


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

you most welcome Ron. 

i was actually watchin this program on Discovery a lil while ago where in this time it was about water treatment plants. you guys run a RO/DI on the water before its pumped out to the pipes for drinking apart from chemical treatment? now from what i understand the DI process kills all the bacteria in the water, including salts and minerals and RO is basically Reverse Osmosis. this is then oxygenated via a larger version of the airpumps we use. this is the BIGGEST difference we have. we dont run a RO/DI or a oxygenation process. well its self oxygenating in the process of being pumped and falling into the tanks but i dont think they realise it. could this be a factor?

am i getting the RO/DI factor right? i prob am getting that all wrong seeing that SW setups run RO/DI uints.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I don't know much about water treatment. Do we really use RO. That seems like a pretty expensive technique. I know it is used to turn salt water into drinking water. The important thing about your case Zakk, is that very little bacteria is entering your aquarium from the water system. Whatever is happening in your water treatment process.. it is not the bacteria that is important. Something is happening that causes the few bacteria that you have to "explode" into operation. A couple of good ideas have been suggested. EMC thought about bio-spira and Red suggested maybe some enzime. Something like that is going on...


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

true very true. i have never had any luck when i try to find an answer i always seem to stumble upon then just when am about to give up. let see what happens on this one.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't think our water gets RO. You can do that to salt water and to make wastewater (however foul) safe for drinking, but it is expensive and wastes water (you keep only a portion of it). Our source water is just surface water collected in man-made lakes. I think our waste treatment is ponds, filters, and bacteria (the end products are water and sludge). Our drinking water treatment is chlorine and chloramine. Where I live is pretty close to the source. Our nitrates and TDS are low. And when there is a drought, we have shortages and we are in a 'water war' with those downstream for using too much of it.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

i guess this is one of the unsolved mystries in that case. funds permitting, i plan to get the water tested to see what all is exactly present in it that enables me to skip cycling. this is becomin an obsession!


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

A basic High School bio microscope should be enough to test your water Zakk. Might need to use some dyes to get better contrast, but with a textbook picture of some of the nitrogen cycle bacteria, you should be able to eyeball it.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

ok....lemme find someone still in highschool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Gosh, I don't know COM. Even the scientist don't completely understand exactly what bacteria is at work here. Actually they think it may be a whoie bunch of different bacteria. Becides how would you be able to tell one bacteria from another. I must admit that you probable know a whole lot more about this than me. I'm not sure I would even know which end of the microscope to look in. LOL


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

redpaulhus said:


> Nitrate is the end product - nitrate in and of itself doesn't "take care of" the ammonia -- it is what the ammonia becomes as it is processed by the bacteria.


LIGHTBULB ! ! ! ! !

Thank you so much for this. My head was stuck (uh duh) in the whole piece that what nitrate does (in the cycle) is make it so ammonia is "not there." But what I am gathering from this is the piece I missed: The ammonia is there, it is just converting very quickly to nitrate because enough bacteria are present to hurry this along. 

Well I, for one, feel better now. 

ron's confusion now makes sense to me. And I am so dang happy about that because this was getting pretty extensive. 

As for what that means about Zakk's experience: I would guess that there is enough of the bacteria needed floating in the water to take hold quickly when it finally "ends its journey." Since products like Bio-spira do actually help, I am going to liken this to that scenario. Bio-spira adds bacteria to the tank, once in the tank it settles into solid objects (the filter, the gravel etc) and makes the nitrification process speed up. I think that Zakk has ready made Bio-spira qualities and he should bottle it up and sell it. He will make millions.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

LOL sure. i'll send over a few drums of tap water OB!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Hi OB. I'm glad you are with us now. You are correct. The mystery is how does the few bacteria in Zakk's tank cycle so quickly. Maybe he would be willing to mail one of us a small container of tap water for a test... Probably wouldn't work in the US... Hey, I have an idea. You know how water spins clockwise as it goes down the drain in the U.S. Well I have heard that it spins counterclockwise South of the equator... Soooo, thats it. We have bacteria that spin the wrong way in India. It messes up the whole cycling thing....... No? Well maybe not. I dunno.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2009)

LOL ron. yea that might work  lol. am hopin to drop into FL by december this year to see some friends and maybe visit wisconsin as well. one thing is certain, the water from the taps are fit for drinking. i have a cast iron stomach and rarely fall sick but if i so much as drink a glass of water from the tap am sick as hell in a couple of hours. there definatly is something in the water for sure, what it is, i dont know. *yet*


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