# Need some guidance with fishless cycle



## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

hello everybody, I purchased a 29g over the weekend, its all set up and I started the fishless cycling process on monday using ammonia.
I've been doing 1 drop of ammnia per gallon so 29 drops using a dropper.
So far two doses. I tested the water today using the Nutrafin test kit and it looks like the ammonia is 4.9, its a bit confusing because the directions ive been reading are in ppm but my test kit does not use ppm. I just want to make sure that I am not over dosing. I have attached a picture of the results


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

mg/L isn't strictly ppm, but its close enough to treat the same. I would try to go to about 3 ppm, and dose again at 0.5.. 5 is a bit high.


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

thanks for the reply so stay around 2.5mg/l? Since its high should I drop it to 10-15 drops a day?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

I was adding 10-15 for a 55gal
may be worth purchasing an api master test kit
if your happy with your ppm conversion you want to aim for a 2ppm reading for ammonia, check it every 24 hours and if it drops add ammonia to take it to 2ppm.
once it drops rapidly check your nitrites, it will climb high but still add ammonia to 1ppm and check every 12 hours.
every 24hours check your nitrites and once it drops to 0 you are probably cycled... add ammonia again and make sure your nitrites are 0 again after 24 hours.
do a large water change to reduce the nitrates that have been produced by the cycle.
add a few fish gradually once your ammonia and nitrites are 0 and hopefully you will be trouble free.
it does take a while to cycle so just keep on it and don't think nothing is happening as one day it will just happen, can take up and around 6-8 weeks in some instances


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

A ppm would be in my mind would be a ratio of volumes and I started looking up the density of ammonia and thinking the real number would be within 25%. But that is *wrong*. 

A ppm can also be a mass ratio, 1 mg / kg = 1 ppm.

Wikipedia says that the standard practice in measuring water pollution is to equate mg/L with ppm. This is because the one liter of water is going to be very close to 1 kg of mass because the density of water is 1g/cm^3. 

So bottom line is *mg/L = ppm *for water with ppms of other stuff in it. Basically everywhere the hobby talks about aquarium water (at least FW).

Because its unclear and you mix mass and volume units, its considered sloppy and you should say mg/L when you mean mg/L, but no one does.


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

I bought the API test kit and it looks like I am a little over 4ppm, should I stop the ammonia for 1 day or just add 5-10 drops?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

is hard to say the correct ppm by photo, that looks a lot higher than 8ppm, a ppm that is too high in ammonia can kill the bacteria and cause it to stall, I would do a 50% water change and retest, add a few drops at a time if its lower than 2 or leave it if its around 4, test every 24hrs till it drops to about .25 ppm then add a few drops and leave for 10 mins to let it circulate then test and add accordingly, you will soon suss how much to add to get it where you want but try not to get it above 2ppm
this may be helpful and I have found it very informative http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Keep it under 3! Any higher does more harm than good.


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

I did a 50% water change and tested 1 hour afterwards and the ammonia is still high around 4. Should I do another water change tommorow or should I just wait for it to drop on its own?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

let it drop on its own, may take a while to get the bacteria established, just keep testing every 24 hours and let it go yellow then add a few drops and test after 10-15 mins to make sure you are at about 2ppm, try 5 drops to start, you don't want to take it too high.
eventually you will be adding ammonia every 12 hours to keep the bacteria fed then you just need to wait till your nitrites drop to 0, once that happens you are done.
a water change to reduce the nitrates and one last ammonia addition to make sure everything returns to 0, if it does then add some fish


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

wait 12 hours, but if it doesn't start going down, change another 25%


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

I did another test this morning and it was still high so I did another water change and tested and it is lower now it looks like between 1 and 2ppm.
At this point I shouldn't add any today right? wait until tomorrow?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'd let it drop below 1 and then add.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

I would wait now and let it drop naturally, it is at about 2ppm, that is what you need to aim for everytime you top up with ammonia.
it may take a few days before it starts to drop, maybe even a week....
be patient, don't panic if it seems nothing is happening as it will, a new tank takes longer to cycle, if you could get some water from another healthy tank would give you a kick start but is not important.


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks so much, I was thinking about getting some used filter media from my local fish store.


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

A little update, I haven't tested my water in 3 days I tested it this morning and the ammonia has gone down a little bit its at between 1.0ppm and 0.50ppm. So still wait until it reaches zero than add more?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

add a few (try 3 and retest after 10 mins) drops just to top back off to 2ppm, test nitrite and see if that's started to climb, if nitrites are up the process has started 
you will know when the bacteria is well established as the ammonia will drop quite quickly so keep feeding a small dose of ammonia and keep checking your nitrites, nitrites will go to 0 overnight from being highish... that is the point you are ready... just keep it up till then


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

This morning I added 15 drops of ammonia to get to what I believe is 2ppm. Now do I have to add those drops everyday or only when the ammonia drops lower?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Wait 'til it drops. If you add to soon, you will do more harm than good.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

emc7 said:


> Wait 'til it drops. If you add to soon, you will do more harm than good.


agree.. always let it drop before you add more ammonia.. you can kill your bacteria if you overdose the ammo


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

So this morning I got a reading of ammonia 0.50ppm and Nitrites of 0.50ppm yayyyy so at this point I should add more ammonia to bring it up to 2ppm correct?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

yes.. now keep an eye on the nitrites, it will rise before it falls.
just keep adding to 2ppm, it wont hurt to check your ammo after 12 hours at some point and if its hitting .50ppm by then dose to 2ppm and test again after 12 hours, test nitrites every 24 hours and once it hits 0 test your nitrates... if that's high do a large water change to reduce them with DE chlorinated water so you don't kill the bacteria, add ammo to get to 2ppm again to make sure you have not done any harm to your new friends and if it still cycles you are done... add ammo if you need too to keep the bacteria alive and go get your fish and add once the ammo levels are low not straight after you have added ammo


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

Great thanks Weedkiller. This morning I tested again Ammonia was at 1ppm and Nitrites at 2ppm I added some drops to get to 2 ppm later on this afternoon I will test ammonia again to see if it has fallen.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

wait till it drops to .50ppm or 0.25ppm before you add more ammo, don't want any silly mistakes like an ammo overdose, let the nitrites climb and just keep watchin for that lovely blue 0 nitrite reading..


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

So my nitrites are really high off the charts and my nitrates are at 40ppm. I've been adding the 15 drops to get to 2ppm when the ammonia drops. Do I still keep doing this until the ammonia and nitrites reach 0? Is there a point when I have to dose less ammonia? How long will it take for the Nitrites to go down usually?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

2ppm is a safe level, if nitrites are going mad then everything is good 
just be patient and let nature do her work, it could be a few weeks or a few days and suddenly your nitrites are 0. Ammo will be 0 very fast too, you must have noticed it is reaching 0 much faster now
don't worry about the nitrates we will deal with them once you are cycled


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

So this morning the ammonia reached 0 so I added the 15 drops waited 20 min tested and the ammonia is at 1ppm so no even 2ppm in this case do I add more ammonia to bring it up to 2ppm? or just keep it at 15 drops?


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

wont hurt to take it to 2ppm, just no higher,


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

A little update things are going good, Ammonia is at 0ppm every single day and nitrite seems to be dropping no yet at 0ppm tho. I have some live plants in my tank that are not looking good was wondering if its safe for me to dose my plants with Seachem flourish while in the cycling process? I dont want to harm anything and go backwards.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The plant stuff shouldn't effect the cycle too much. If they do take off in a growth spurt, though, they could conceivably eat more of your ammonia or nitrite or nitrate and confuse your test results. Still, if the plants are going to be in the tank with the fish, you might as well cycle with them the way you'll treat them. No sense having to rebalance everything later.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

if the plants die they are cheap to replace anyway, if they survive they will aid in trying to keeping nitrates lower, if nitrites are dropping your next stage of bacteria colony are growing, well done also well done for having the right idea regarding adding stuff to help... not many do and add something to help and have to start again


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

Ok thanks, I will just leave it alone


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

Today I tested the ph after a few days of no testing and it has come down it at 6.8 and high range ph at 7.8 is this ok? this wont affect my cycling? my tap water runs on neutral ph. I do have a piece of driftwood in my tank.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

is fine... don't panic and forget about your ph for now, all you want to know is when your nitrite is 0


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

hahah thanks I did panic for a little, Nitrite is just so slow coming down, I can't wait lol


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

Yesterday and today I noticed that ammonia didn't reach to zero after 24 hours like it was before it is at 0.25ppm. I was dosing 15 drops to get to 2ppm then ammo started dropping and 15 wasnt reaching 2ppm so 29 drops did. but now it is not reaching zero when I test every morning. What should I do?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

this is why 99% of those that keep more than 1 or 2 aquariums never use the fishless cycle system for running in tanks..i know of no wholesale or retail or breeding operations that do it..in fact , here on fish forums is the only place i actually hear of people doing it..
it certainly does work but is pretty easy to screw up..
i have played around with a number of methods of cycling a tank..from ammonia to food to urine and a couple of others....cycling with live animals is actually the most efficient way to do it..
it is the only way i cycle a tank..i do not test the water at all.i have not owned a test kit for more than 35 years....i do not use chemicals except for the occasional medication..
i find that the old " KIS"(keep it simple) approach works best...
and as i have told many....." the more you mess with your tanks ; the more problems you create for yourself."

not to mention that the normal cycle time is 8-12 weeks...not days....you really need to practice patience whit this hobby...not everything comes instantly...

relax..take a deep breath and don't worry about all them readings...let your tank cycle in peace...throw a couple of guppies in instead...


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

lohachata said:


> relax..take a deep breath and don't worry about all them readings...let your tank cycle in peace...throw a couple of guppies in instead...


ah men
just worry about them nitrites reaching 0, they will...


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

So don't worry about the ammonia reading 0.25ppm?? Just wait for the nitrites to come down. I'm not stalled yet, it's not lost?


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

lohachata said:


> this is why 99% of those that keep more than 1 or 2 aquariums never use the fishless cycle system for running in tanks..i know of no wholesale or retail or breeding operations that do it..in fact , here on fish forums is the only place i actually hear of people doing it..
> it certainly does work but is pretty easy to screw up..
> i have played around with a number of methods of cycling a tank..from ammonia to food to urine and a couple of others....cycling with live animals is actually the most efficient way to do it..
> it is the only way i cycle a tank..i do not test the water at all.i have not owned a test kit for more than 35 years....i do not use chemicals except for the occasional medication..
> ...



I just didn't want to cycle with fish and have them die, I just didn't feel right doing that. So I went for the fishless cycle.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i always cycle with fish and they do not die..
i have found that the easiest way is to set up the tank and add the dechlorinating agent..let the temp stabilize and then add a couple of small fish....do weekly 10-15% water changes..


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

You dont need ammonia to reach 0, the bacteria feeds on the ammonia so all the time its there its feeding, as long as its dropping it will be fine when its cycled


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## fer00 (Aug 24, 2013)

Ok, I haven't added any ammo today I will check it when I get home tonight


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

don't starve the bacteria with ammo.... you will do more harm than good, just add the ammo to feed it the rest will happen naturally,


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## kcrunch (Aug 17, 2012)

Cycle with fish and if they are not he type that you intend to keep you can always either give them away or you can take them to the LFS and trade them in for others you intend to keep if they allow the trade.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

lets not do the whole which way to cycle debate, but stay on what going on. 

Yes, low pH can slow your cycle. But you want it to cycle with the conditions you are going to keep. So, if you need an acid tank, then you want acid-tolerant filter bacteria. Co2 can swing your pH all over the place and fish and plants don't seem to mind at all.

If you want neutral or above (completely depends on the fish you want to keep), you can nudge it up with an addition of carbonate (crushed coral in the filter, a 1/4 tsp of baking soda / 10 gallons, a little "neutral regulator", etc.). Or up the water change size and frequency (may work depending on your water source). If you are going to "mess" with the water chemistry, the time to do it is now, before you have fish. You can get things stable and determine what you have to do to keep them there.

Just because you are fishless, doesn't mean you have to go entirely "natural" and wait as long as it takes. If it stalls, you can go buy some Stability or other bacteria in a bottle and jump start things.

Back to the diversion: I think its great that you are taking the time to know what healthy water is like before fish. Overfeeding and a couple of dead fish kill off the bacteria exactly like ODing the ammonia. I don't like KCs suggestion. If you don't have a QT tank, everything in and out is another vector for disease.


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