# Multiple diseases in one tank?!



## malphonse (Nov 12, 2006)

*This is my story. I need advice on the symptoms I saw, the treatments advised and what I’m missing.*

PetSmart is my source for fishes and most of my aquarium needs. I moved 4 bala sharks and 2 tiger barbs from a 10 gal to a cycled 55 gal tank. I went back to PetSmart and bought 4 more barbs. 

Within a week, one barb started acting strangely: flipping over, swimming sideways at the surface of the tank, breathing rapidly (*swim bladder? transit? stress?*). It died 2 days later. About two more barbs started rapid gill movements. Several fish seemed to have lost most of their appetites for fish flakes, but the frozen blood worms were still popular.

Two days after that, one of my precious sharks showed similar symptoms like the barbs, including pointing downwards for a long time (*swim bladder?*). :cussing: I did an emergency 50% water change and regular water treatment (vacuum, wash out filters, stress zyme, stress coat, alkalinity/pH regulation and reinstate the 0.2% salinity). 

The sick bala’s upper torso turned dark green (almost black) with a fine gold dust (*velvet?*). It also became lethargic – at one point, it lay still at the front of the tank and even allowed me to shine a flashlight on it! It also had frayed fins, displayed a shimmying behavior (*cotton mouth?*) and I noticed redness at the base of the dorsal fin (*haemorrhagic septicaemia? tuberculosis?*). :bang:

I went to PetSmart the next day and was advised to raise the temp to 85°F (up from 78°F) and triple the salinity to 0.6% for a week. The sick bala shark died.  I took it back to PetSmart but they couldn’t determine the root cause :x. They advised me to start a 5-day broad spectrum treatment using Lifeguard from Jungle Labs (http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=TT102), even with the elevated temperature and salinity levels. During this period, one barb showed raised scales around its abdomen (*dropsy?*). :irk: It is now day 6 and I’m down to 2 sharks and one barb.

The barbs began to die, one after the other. I took a close look at one of them: it had swollen gills and abdomen and what appeared to be a yellowish slime at the side of its torso, behind the gills (*tuberculosis?*).

To add insult to injury, one of my last two precious balas is now swimming on its side, has a darkening upper torso (it’s currently brown – is this *velvet?*), has redness on its dorsal fin and is sometimes lethargic. I should mention that it got ill after fraternizing with one of the sick barbs, so maybe it contracted something?  

:evil: I have resigned myself to accepting that all the fish will die before I get the root cause(s). I need find out what really went wrong (I’m strongly suspecting a bad batch of barbs :anger: ), what I need to do re-stabilize the tank and what other tests I should get to prevent this from happening again (I have tests for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, hardness, pH, alkalinity, chlorine, temperature, oxygen and salinity).

The whole purpose for getting the 55 gal tank was for keeping the 4 bala sharks for many years and see them grow to their 12-14” adult size. :cheers: I never encountered this magnitude of problems with the 10 gal tank even though it was heavily overcrowded. This is an addictive hobby and I’ve come too far in five short months to quit. I’ll appreciate any help that you, the more seasoned experts out there, can give me. Let me know if you need any further information from me.


----------



## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Exactly how did you cycle the 55G tank and what method did you use to determine it was fully cycled? When you say "wash out filters" what exactly do you mean? I think you mentioned almost every illness except Ich. You don't have them all. Please give all the water parameters and why the salt.

I am sorry you lost your fish. There are a few fundamentals which are needed for long time success. One is to quarantine new fish.


----------



## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear about your depressing experience 

I also would like to ask how you cycled your tank? You mentioned a lot of dieases; you probably don't have all the ones mentioned but you may have some of them, but I don't know whether we'll be able to determine which one(s) any better than your own diagnoses.

4 bala sharks and 6 barbs is a lot for 55gal (well, depends on the size of 4 bala sharks) - if your tank was improperly cycled, it could have been quite a large bioload to introduce into an unprepared tank, and all the problems could have been cause / exacerbated by ammonia burn / new tank syndrome.

I noticed you said you planned on keeping your bala sharks in your 55 gal until adulthood. You won't be able to do that. Bala sharks are BIG, BIG fish and with 4 of them you should be planning for at least 125 gallons.

As rba said, quarantining is very important (a lot of us learn the hard way .) I do also suggest not to rely entirely on Petsmart for fish advice. Sounds you bought a lot of meds there (which is what any petsmart employee will encourage - but is not always necessary.) I personally don't like medicating my fish unless it is necessary, as the meds are hard on the fish and the bacteria in your tank and can do harm if improperly applied or dosed.

Anyway, as you say, now is the chance for you to determine the cause of the problems you've been having.

Have you tested your water parameters? What are they?

Anyway, for the time being, keep the temperature a little high (81) and keep the water well aerated with an airstone.


----------



## malphonse (Nov 12, 2006)

Cycling the tank: I used the fish flakes method: added flakes until I detected ammonia. I have an additional filter with a bio wheel (from the 10 gal) - a Penguin 200 [up to 50 gal tank], which I added to the 55 gal. The ammonia rose to 0.5ppm then dropped to zero. This took 12 days. At that point I figured it was ready...

Washing out filters: All the water in my house is conditioned (soft, no chlorine or copper), so I removed them and ran them through the tap for a couple minutes. For any 'gunk' on the outer surface, I used an unused toothbrush with soft bristles.

Balas and a 125 gal tank: *sigh* I have to accept this. In a cruel twist of fate, the smaller of the remaining balas just died and the last one is on its way out. I may have to consider silver barbs instead and add them to the albinos, after I recover the 55 gal.

Quarantining: add me to the school-of-hard-knocks list. I never needed it for the 10 gal, so it was not even on my mind for the 55 gal.

Water parameters: I maintain a running spreadsheet history. Last reading on 11/10:
ammonia: 1.0 mg/l (appears to be climbing due to the spike in population)
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 20 ppm (since the tank was cycled 12 days ago)
chlorine: 0 (thanks to the water conditioning from the mains)
hardness: 120 ppm (GH) - for almost a week
alkalinity: 180 ppm (KH) - for almost a week
pH: 6.6 - since tank cycled
temp: 86 F (for a week, as advised)
salinity: 0.61% (for a week, as advised. did not see any fish react badly to this)
oxygen: 11 mg/l (for over a week)


----------



## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> The ammonia rose to 0.5ppm then dropped to zero. This took 12 days. At that point I figured it was ready...


Kudos for not using fish to cycle your tank!
Did you test for Nitrites after? A nitrite spike will follow the ammonia spike and it just as toxic. Did you continue to 'feed' the tank the whole 12 days? It is usually recommended that you feed the tank until it hits 3ppm ammonia, and continue this until the ammonia goes back down to zero (even with feeding) and then nitrites hit zero. You would need to keep feeding until you added fish, which would need to be added slowly.
What may have happened was that there was a nitrite spike when you put your fish in, and that the bacteria count was a ltitle low for the bioload of all your fish (most which were put in at once, if I understand correctly)

For washing out filters: there's nothing wrong with your method, but it's better to just shake it around in a bucket of tank water when you do a water change. This will get rid of much less nitrifying bacteria.

I'm sorry to hear about your remaining balas. I really hope you won't let this experience get you down. You did everything almost perfectly and unfortunately a few little easy oversights is probably what triggered the manifestation of all these diseases. There is a wonderful fishkeeper in you, because you obviously care.

Your water params seem fine (except for the ammonia, of course, which is probably a result of dying fish and large fish population for a small culture of bacteria). I would lower the temps a bit... It is often recommended to increase the temperature but unless you have fish that are really accustomed to high temps and can handle them, I wouldn't go more than 2 degrees above the recommended temperature for that fish. IME it causes more stress than anything. A small increase is good because the fish metabolize faster and the disease can run its course more quickly. Like a person would want to keep warm during a cold, you wouldn't want to try to rid yourself of a fever in 105F. 

Anyway, due to the myriad of diseases that may have infiltrated your tank, before proceeded with any new fish, empty your tank (remaining barbs can go in the 10gal for remainder of treatment, or you can just let them all either die or recover, first) and scrub all your tank / accessories with hot water (boil what you can, such as driftwood and rocks) and soak your gravel in salted hot water (you can use table salt for this).

Try to find some Bio Spira if you can, or order some, it's very effective at practically instant cycling.


----------



## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Cycling without fish can be faster than with fish but 12 days is fast. The bacteria which handle nitrites is sloooooow to develop. Not saying it didn't happen, if you are plotting the parameters and saw a rise and fall of nitrites, great. Manufacturers tend to overstate the capacity of their filters. Cleaning filters under running water rinses away so much of the bacteria you have developed, even if you water is chlorine free (are you sure there is no chloramine?) gently rinsing in used water from the tank will disturb less bacteria.


----------



## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I agree with rba... when the box says 'max 50', I wouldn't use it for a tank over 30, maybe 40 gallons.
If you have a very low bioload for your tank, then you can stick with your current filtration, but if you're expecting to have a full house, get a filter rated for 70gallons (like the AquaClear 70).
For example on my 30 gal, I have a filter rated for 60 gallons. On my 10 gal, I have a filter rated for 30, and on my 90 gal I have a filter rated for 70 and a filter rated for 35.

If you notice you're getting too much water agitation, either add some water to bring the water level up, or you can turn down the filter a tad. But in a 55gallong you shouldn't have that problem.


----------



## malphonse (Nov 12, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Kudos for not using fish to cycle your tank!
> Did you test for Nitrites after? A nitrite spike will follow the ammonia spike and it just as toxic.


The nitrates did not rise above 20ppm, even after the ammonia spike. I think I can thank the bio wheel for that. 



Zoe said:


> Did you continue to 'feed' the tank the whole 12 days? It is usually recommended that you feed the tank until it hits 3ppm ammonia, and continue this until the ammonia goes back down to zero (even with feeding) and then nitrites hit zero. You would need to keep feeding until you added fish, which would need to be added slowly.


Actually, I stopped feeding after I saw the ammonia rise... my bad... 




Zoe said:


> What may have happened was that there was a nitrite spike when you put your fish in, and that the bacteria count was a ltitle low for the bioload of all your fish (most which were put in at once, if I understand correctly)


Again, my bad. I moved over all of the 6 original fish in one step, then bought 4 more barbs the next day. Chalk it up to over excitement...



Zoe said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your remaining balas. I really hope you won't let this experience get you down. You did everything almost perfectly and unfortunately a few little easy oversights is probably what triggered the manifestation of all these diseases. There is a wonderful fishkeeper in you, because you obviously care.


Thank you! I appreciate it! 




Zoe said:


> Anyway, due to the myriad of diseases that may have infiltrated your tank, before proceeded with any new fish, empty your tank (remaining barbs can go in the 10gal for remainder of treatment, or you can just let them all either die or recover, first) and scrub all your tank / accessories with hot water (boil what you can, such as driftwood and rocks) and soak your gravel in salted hot water (you can use table salt for this).


The last bala and barb are still alive! :shock: :smile: Since I completed the LifeGuard All In One treatment 2 days ago, I have not touched the tank. The salinity is still 3X normal (at 0.6%). I'm thinking about Maracyn and Maracyn 2, but their instructions say nothing about dropping the salinity first. I think I'd have to wait a couple days more before starting another course of treatment... but the fish may die before that...




Zoe said:


> Try to find some Bio Spira if you can, or order some, it's very effective at practically instant cycling.


Can this also increase or strengthen aerobic and anerobic bacteria colonies on the bio-wheel and bio-foam?


----------



## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

> The nitrates did not rise above 20ppm, even after the ammonia spike. I think I can thank the bio wheel for that.


Not NiTRATES, niTRITES... Did you test for those, also? 20ppm nitrates is fine, but nitrites are toxic in any amount.

I'm glad to hear you two remaining fishes are still holding on. I wouldn't start with any new treatments - give them a few days at least to see how they are acting. How do they seem? Iffy, or okay?



> Can this also increase or strengthen aerobic and anerobic bacteria colonies on the bio-wheel and bio-foam?


If the colonies aren't already established, yes. If the colonies are already established to their maximum, then no. I was thinking more for if you were to re-cycle your tank and start over.

Zoe


----------



## malphonse (Nov 12, 2006)

Zoe said:


> Not NiTRATES, niTRITES... Did you test for those, also? 20ppm nitrates is fine, but nitrites are toxic in any amount.


The nitrites peaked and 0.3 ppm then dropped back to zero. The BB on the bio-wheel and bio-foam took care of that, not the nitrates. In my 10 gal, I had nothing significant to house a BB culture, so that one took 4 weeks to cycle.



Zoe said:


> I'm glad to hear you two remaining fishes are still holding on. I wouldn't start with any new treatments - give them a few days at least to see how they are acting. How do they seem? Iffy, or okay?


All the fish have now died  , so I'm starting over from square one.


----------



## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear that 
I do suggest you wash everything in your tank because of the possible diseases, so you should try to find some bio-spira to cycle your tank.


----------

