# 33g Planted



## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm scratching the brackish idea I posted up a month ago because I've been having a lot of trouble finding the fish available in my area, so instead, I think I'm going to just aquascape and make one of my tanks look really stunning. I took back the Clown Knife today (as much as I didn't want to) and started planning out what I'm going to do.

As for plants, I'm a little uneasy on what to get. My 33g long is only about a foot tall, so I wouldn't be able to get plants that grow huge unless I'm able to prune them constantly. I saw that my LFS had Microswords available, which I think I'm going to get and line the whole front of the tank with. I have a few Java Ferns left over from my 33g and a few downstairs in my 38g which I'll probably tie to driftwood or stones etc etc. I also want to grab some Watersprite to drape across the top and possibly plant any extras I come across. Any suggestions for good, hearty medium-sized plants to line the back of my tank with?

As for substrate I'm going to use a natural looking gravel with a base fertilizer underneath it. I thought about sand, but I'm a little uneasy about it since I know that some plants anchor themselves to a heartier substrate, like gravel, to make a strong root system. I honestly wouldn't mind using sand though, to be completely honest, it just makes the tank look more awesome. If someone could clarify this for me I'd be greatly appreciated.

I'm going to get a new piece of driftwood and use some other pieces I'm already using to line throughout the tank. I'm also going to use a few smooth stones I got the hold of which I was going to use for my previous brackish idea. If I use a sand substrate, I may sprinkle it with some natural gravel I may have lying around just to give it that kind of touch, but we'll see when the time comes.

I don't plan on using any type of CO2 injection for this idea. It's not that I don't want to, I just don't really have the room nor the money to do it at this point, so I think I'm just going to do it the au naturale way ;P.

I'm not too concerned about the fish at this point, however, I'm either going to pick between a school of 10-12 Neons, a school of 10-12 Harlequin Rasboras, or two separate schools with maybe 6-8 in each. There may also be a shoal of Oto Cats as the cleanup crew, and maybe a pair of Mollies just to test the tank prior to adding the other fish.

If anyone out there has general knowledge on fully planted tanks, please, I'd be more than welcome to listen to your knowledge. I've been growing Amazon Swords and Java Ferns for years, having much success, but never set up a 100% planted aquarium. I'll be posting pictures up from time to time to show how my tank is progressing to give you guys a heads up at where I'm at and how it looks. I'm open to any suggestions. Thanks for reading .


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

Not too sure on the molly idea, seems to be a pointless exercise, I'd say neons are hardy enough to put in first, in heavily planted tanks with hardly any stock I wouldn't even worry about cycling. I'd say just introduce one shoal at a time, and if having one large one do it in two halves over about two weeks.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

bumpppppppppppppp.


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## grogan (Jan 23, 2011)

First things first, what kind of lighting options are you looking at? If you were to drop $100 or so and get a nice t5 fixture on a timer you would be sitting great. Also what you can do for substrate is go to your lfs and get the aquatic plant substrate and mix it with a larger grain common substrate. In my planted tank I wanted black gravel so I bought the two and mixed them and have had GREAT SUCESS! 

If I were you I would go with an open top tank with the light sitting on legs. Then put plants like lilies and others that have gas pockets. I would cover the floor with rock and babies tears. Mix in a few anubius and PRESTO show tank.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

grogan said:


> First things first, what kind of lighting options are you looking at? If you were to drop $100 or so and get a nice t5 fixture on a timer you would be sitting great. Also what you can do for substrate is go to your lfs and get the aquatic plant substrate and mix it with a larger grain common substrate. In my planted tank I wanted black gravel so I bought the two and mixed them and have had GREAT SUCESS!
> 
> If I were you I would go with an open top tank with the light sitting on legs. Then put plants like lilies and others that have gas pockets. I would cover the floor with rock and babies tears. Mix in a few anubius and PRESTO show tank.


Thanks for the response .

As of now, a new lighting fixture is not in the budget, so I'm going to keep the hood I have for now, except I'm going to purchase the proper light bulb for aquatic plants.

Substrate-wise, I think I'm going to go with Eco-Complete. I've heard nothing but awesome news on plant results, plus I'm almost positive it comes in black which is kind of what I was going for.

As of right now, the plants I'm starting out with will most likely be Micro-swords, which I'm going to de-pot and individually place them along the front of the tank with a pair of tweezers. I have some Java Ferns in my 38g which I plan on attaching to either driftwood I'm going to get or the stones I already have. I'm still undecided on what plants I want to drape throughout the tank, but I know at some point I want to float Watersprite across the top and probably by that time I'll have enough to buy a better timed lighting system.

In case anyone was wondering, I'm going to try and give the plants at least 10 hours of lighting per day, trying not to overdo it or underdo it.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

I had a lot of difficulty finding Eco-Complete in my surrounding areas so I decided to drop that idea and go with regular black gravel. A store in my area actually had an aquatic substrate by Fluval that looked promising, but was overly price for the amount I was getting. Black gravel should be fine.

I picked up a bottle of Tetra Aqua Safe and Tetra Flora Pride to set up my water and plants. I'm also picking up my Micro Swords and maybe some other plants at some point today. I'll keep you guys updated!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Plants ship really well and much more cheaply than fish. You should be able to get about anything you want. But no CO2 and low light will limit you. Don't go overboard on ferts and special substrate unless you have strong lights to go with. Low-light plants grow slowly and you won't need nearly as much as the typical "planted tank" requires.

You could try sticking a T5 under-cabinet light under the reflector from you stock hood or hang a 'shop light' from the ceiling, either over an open top or a glass lid.

I also would skip the mollies. They like hard and/or salty water which doesn't really go with the majority of aquatic plants (java fern and hornwort are exception), nor with tetra. Do one big school of mid-water fish and maybe add a shoal of cories.


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## egoreise (Mar 16, 2011)

My mum built a really nice CO2 system with gallon jugs and air tubing. It's hidden next to the tank in a pretty box with a heating pad at the bottom, and it runs on sugar and yeast. I think. I've been meaning to get the directions to build it from her and post them in the plant section.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

You're right, sand doesn't do to well with plants... The roots like large to medium sized gravel pieces to wrap around... The sand is too fine in my opinion. 

But, if you're like me and on a budget you just need to swap out your lightbulb. Go with the Life-Glo made by Hagen. The spectrum is 6700K which is the closest to actual sunlight. I got it running on my 10 gallon and wow that thing is bright. 

My gouarmi's seem to find a way of tearing apart my plants too much... So i'm thinking of rehousing them. A planted tank is the way to go if you set it up right... Love the look


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks for the responses!

*Emc7*: I'm definitely going to upgrade my bulb when I get some more money and I'll definitely take up your offer on buying plant via the internet. I was looking at LiveAquaria a few days ago and they had a pretty good selection of plants. Any other sites you recommend? Instead of Cories, could I go with a shoal of Oto Cats instead just so my algae problems are easily taken care of? Also, what would be your recommendation on mid-water fish that won't touch my plants?

*Egoreise*: Yeah, a CO2 system would be awesome if I had the money. I remember an old user on here by the name of JustOneMore20 who has an astounding planted tank setup and posted pictures whenever she updated it. I think she started with a mat of Riccia Flutians if I'm not mistaken, and just kept adding. If I can find the link I'll be sure to share it.

*Mr. Fish*: I'll look into that bulb you recommended, thanks for the idea. Gouramis are tough to figure out with plants, even though I'm contemplating on getting a lone Honey Gourami among the school of fish I'll be getting eventually.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

ottos are cool. I always have to stare at a tank for a while before I see them. The neons or rasboras you mentioned would work. What shape is this tank? A 4' long 33 can handle bigger fish like emperor or congo tetra. A very high 33 could use a top water fish like hatchetfish, a midwater, and a bottom dweller, but they'd need to be small.

Aquabid.com is good if you know exactly what you are looking for. baylessfishees.com is worth a look, too.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> ottos are cool. I always have to stare at a tank for a while before I see them. The neons or rasboras you mentioned would work. What shape is this tank? A 4' long 33 can handle bigger fish like emperor or congo tetra. A very high 33 could use a top water fish like hatchetfish, a midwater, and a bottom dweller, but they'd need to be small.
> 
> Aquabid.com is good if you know exactly what you are looking for. baylessfishees.com is worth a look, too.


Emperors are REALLY rare to find in the area, I had to travel about an hour and a half to actually pick up a school of them just risking the drive to the actual store. I got them to breed though and the two babies plus the mother are in the 38g at the moment. I really love the way they look so if they do come around to this area I'll definitely get some more. I also have Congos as well in my 38g, but I can probably get a hold of some smaller ones in my area.

I have a 33 long, at about 4', leaving the height and depth at about, give or take a foot. I could seriously probably just get 20 Neons plus the Otos and call it even, but maybe I'm not stretching my limit enough. I thought about Rainbows but they get pretty big and I don't think a 33g is a good size tank for them, plus they cost a pretty penny.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

And in case anyone was interested, this is the link I was talking about previously:

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/user-journals/17649-20g-long-planted-tank-formerly-10g.html


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

JOM was our plant guru. Worth using the advanced search to read old threads. Much more serious than I am. I add a few plants for my fish, she'd add a few fish for her plants.

I had 5 M. trifasciata in a 55 and they made the tank seem small. Always moving. Smaller rainbows like the turquoise do best with small, live food and can be sensitive, but they are beautiful and fun to watch.

How about 33 neons? Since they are about the only fish the 'inch per gallon rule' kinda works on.

btw, what is your avatar? An A. Thomasi?

I understand DIY CO2 is affordable, but can be unpredictable. And likely not worth it until you get a least 2 bulbs. Champagne yeast (from a home-brew store) and grape jelly.

Where in CT? I lived in Bethel for a few years. Hardware stores closed at 5 pm, only 1 mall (in Danbury). It was like going back in time.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> JOM was our plant guru. Worth using the advanced search to read old threads. Much more serious than I am. I add a few plants for my fish, she'd add a few fish for her plants.
> 
> I had 5 M. trifasciata in a 55 and they made the tank seem small. Always moving. Smaller rainbows like the turquoise do best with small, live food and can be sensitive, but they are beautiful and fun to watch.
> 
> ...


I wish we got more intriguing and smaller rainbows around the area, but it's usually no dice.

The inch per gallon rule seems to always work and usually will with most smaller tetras. I think i'll probably cap out at around 20-35 if I do an all Neon tank however .

My avatar is one of my Jewel Cichlids from when I initially set my 33g up. Awesome fish, they look great, they have a pretty good personality, and they LOVED the camera.

I live in Danbury actually so Bethel isn't far away at all haha.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Nice fish. Here's a link to one of mine http://www.atlantaaquarium.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=200&d=1297144461

There is a Danbury aquarium group with a auction June 4. Maybe you should wait and go. IME local fish are more likely to thrive. http://www.northeastcouncil.org/daas/ 

I was fishless in CT (it was always temporary), so I never checked them out.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> Nice fish. Here's a link to one of mine http://www.atlantaaquarium.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=200&d=1297144461
> 
> There is a Danbury aquarium group with a auction June 4. Maybe you should wait and go. IME local fish are more likely to thrive. http://www.northeastcouncil.org/daas/
> 
> I was fishless in CT (it was always temporary), so I never checked them out.


Hmmm I didn't even know there was a Danbury aquarium group, if I'm around I'll be sure to drop in, thanks!

Also, the picture you sent didn't load for me, I'm not really sure if it's because I don't have a specific plugin or what.

Anywho, I took some shots of setting up the tank in the past few days, figured I'd share them with you guys, enjoy!

Emptying the tank out:









Almost empty:









Completely empty, cleaned, and look, my room mysteriously got painted =O:









Gravel placed in, and filling it back up:









Filled up, filter and heater added:









Micro Swords individually placed along the front of the tank:









Close up on the Swords:


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Those are really cute. Like grass. I'll try embedding the pic, but if you can't see it, I'll have to load it to another site.


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## egoreise (Mar 16, 2011)

Slash!  I do like the contrast of the black against the plants. It's going to look really awesome when it's filled in! I'm curious... what is the plate for?

emc7 - I couldn't see your picture, either.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7: Thanks, hopefully it'll carpet over the whole tank at some point .



egoreise said:


> Slash!  I do like the contrast of the black against the plants. It's going to look really awesome when it's filled in! I'm curious... what is the plate for?
> 
> emc7 - I couldn't see your picture, either.


Hahahaha, that was when I was a Guitar Hero freak, which died out a long time ago. I agree, I think the green plants with the black gravel is going to look awesome, it would definitely go the same with a dark brown substrate as well, which was my second plan if I ended up finding a nutrient rich substrate.

The plate is used for pouring the water in the tank so it doesn't disturb any of the surrounding. In this case, since the plate was in the tank and all I had was gravel, it wouldn't make deep pits in the gravel after it was properly laid out. In the case of other decor, it won't disturb any set up decor since the water will evenly distribute across the plate, rather than focus the pressure on one single waterfall from a bucket.


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## egoreise (Mar 16, 2011)

I've never been a huge guitar hero fan. Real guitars are funner. 

That's a really good idea! I'd never thought of that. I usually pour my water over a larger ornament, like the driftwood....
Or in the case of one tank that has a shelf too close over it, I just set the bucket on the upper shelf and siphon the water in.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Yea that thread with JOM was pretty cool..

Back in the days I use to be really big into the planted scene.. Started off with a DIY yeast reactor and then noticed it wasn't working like I wanted it to and spent 300+ on a Co2 tank with JBJ regulator. Then spent another 800 on a 90 gallon tank setup with a 265 watt orbit lighting and canister filter.

All that stuff has never been used as I ended up moving and didn't have the space, so its just sitting collecting dust in storage. I plan on putting it to work soon, but, now I'm thinking About getting back into the planted scene. I'ma bit rusty so I might just start on my 10 gallon, I just wish I would have made my mind up before I added sand. I should of went with the black Eco-Complete, so now I just gotta make the best of the sand. 

I think if you can get a good Riccia carpet to pearl the rest just comes natural. Unfortunetly I dont have the light requirements to even use my Co2.. But I'ma gonna be whippin up something soon so look out for pics!

Anyways good luck Chaos! I might just be joining ya soon


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Also not to discourage you but Micro Swords requires high light and nutrient rich substrate is recommended.

Dont think it's gonna do to well in reg gravel unless you placed some peat moss underneath? Also what kind of lighting do you have?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

That stuff looks good on the front edge, but there is more light directly under the light.


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## egoreise (Mar 16, 2011)

emc7 said:


> That stuff looks good on the front edge, but there is more light directly under the light.


Yes. I've just begun adding a few live plants to my tanks, and with my 40 gallon in particular, I've found they do best right in the center of the tank where the light is brightest. The abundance of algae there tipped me off.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Mr. Fish*: Damnnn, you have so much that I wish I had hahahaha. Set it up! I don't want to be the only one on this scene ;P. I don't have peat moss underneath :/, and I'm probably going down to my LFS tomorrow to pick up a Power-Glo bulb for a 55g fixture, since all I have is the stock hood light. I'll be sure to update when I get it.

*emc7*: Very true, I really wanted to leave it on the front edge since I had other plans for the middle, but I may end up just moving all of them into a patch in the middle, rather than a straight line, possibly bordering a rock or something? Hmmm, that might actually look pretty good, maybe I'll go with it...

*egoreise*: I haven't encountered algae quite yet, even though the slightest would be good to see so I know I have a healthy tank. If you end up having algae problems, you can always get a school of Oto Cats like I'm doing. They do a fine job at cleaning up the green stuff ;P.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Get a Life-Glo...Not Power- Glo


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## egoreise (Mar 16, 2011)

Agreed! Some people think algae is a bad thing, I think it's a sign of a healthy tank and an environment that feels natural for the fish. I have several apple snails and a rainbow shark named Fish that tend to keep it *mostly* under control. The rest either doesn't bother me, or is easily cleaned up.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

egoreise said:


> Agreed! Some people think algae is a bad thing, I think it's a sign of a healthy tank and an environment that feels natural for the fish. I have several apple snails and a rainbow shark named Fish that tend to keep it *mostly* under control. The rest either doesn't bother me, or is easily cleaned up.


Algae is a sign of either too much light... or too much nutrients in the tank.

Most of time algae occurs in an "unbalanced tank"

Well balanced tanks hardly ever get algae...


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## egoreise (Mar 16, 2011)

Probably too much light. I have a weird work schedule. Sometimes I work for three hours in the afternoon, and sometimes I work from 5:30 am until 7:30 pm. So the light either gets turned on for too long, or doesn't get turned on at all. I need to buy timers...


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

I'll make sure I pick up a Life-Glo either today or tomorrow, thanks.

I'm not really sure how much further I can go this week since I should probably wait until I get some more income before continuing. However, I'll probably go out and find some decor in my backyard, boil, clean and update whenever I can.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

anubias..java fern and cryptocoryne are great low to medium light plants..get some crypt willisi..small plant that will carpet an area like a little jungle..
because the 33 long is only 12 inches tall you want to try to keep things in scale....by using some of the crypt species and java ferns they will just about reach the top of the tank looking like sword plants..anubias are a darker green and will provide a color contrast to the other plants..crypt wendtii comes in 3 colors...green , bronze , and red. they will all do well in your tank...


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

lohachata said:


> anubias..java fern and cryptocoryne are great low to medium light plants..get some crypt willisi..small plant that will carpet an area like a little jungle..
> because the 33 long is only 12 inches tall you want to try to keep things in scale....by using some of the crypt species and java ferns they will just about reach the top of the tank looking like sword plants..anubias are a darker green and will provide a color contrast to the other plants..crypt wendtii comes in 3 colors...green , bronze , and red. they will all do well in your tank...


Thanks, highly appreciated! I have a mass of Java Ferns in my 38g that I started moving into this tank, I'm just debating whether I should just let them grow in the gravel or attach them to wood/stones.

I LOVE the Anubias species because they're pretty difficult to kill. Their root system is unbelievably thick making them a great plant anyway, however, they grow ridiculously slow. No matter, I'll still look into getting some .

I've also had Crypts before, I was just unaware that there were a variety of colors within the Wendtii species. All the colors can be raised the same way I presume? I'll take your word with the Willisi idea since I think a carpet of a small plant looks really good in any aquaria.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

I went in to look for the lightbulb at my LFS and ended up picking up an Anubias and my friend who worked there ended up giving me two more potted Micro Swords for no extra charge, can't complain. 

The bulb I got was Sun-Glo though and they didn't have Life-Glo specifically. I can see if they can order it, but the next best bulb was Power-Glo. It says on the packaging that it's 4200k while Life-Glo is 6700k, so that's why I got it since Power-Glo is 18000k. Worse comes to worse I'll return it for whatever else I need. I'm about to depot and plant the plants as we speak, so I'll update with pics a little later.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Yea...You wanna aim for 6700K since thats the closest to actual sunlight.

They have em on sale right now at Petsmart.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Yea...You wanna aim for 6700K since thats the closest to actual sunlight.
> 
> They have em on sale right now at Petsmart.


So if my stock light was 6400k, I should just return the Sun-Glo until I find Life-Glo?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Can you post me a link of your exact stock bulb


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Here, I took a picture of the specs on the old bulb:









I also took a few more shots with the new plants in, enjoy!

New bulb:









Anubias I picked up today:









Side tank shot of the Java Ferns I planted last night, should be adding more tomorrow:


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

I would probably just use the stock one you have in till you can get your hands on the Life-Glo.

Kelvin around 6500K is closest to natural sunlight at midday, higher numbers indicate more blue or "coolness" to the light colour, lower numbers more red or warmness.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Alright, I'll keep this in and return the one I bought so I can get a 6700K bulb at another store. Thanks!


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

Finally got some decor going, the tank was looking really bare haha. Went down to my creek in my backyard and found a few nice looking rocks, boiled them for about 10 minutes, and added them in. Also found a dead branch that had an arch the way I wanted, so I cleaned that off real well and double checked for possible bugs. I'm going to get a refund for the bulb I bought and grab the 6700K bulb a little later so I'll post up pics when that happens.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Chaos553 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Finally got some decor going, the tank was looking really bare haha. Went down to my creek in my backyard and found a few nice looking rocks, boiled them for about 10 minutes, and added them in. Also found a dead branch that had an arch the way I wanted, so I cleaned that off real well and double checked for possible bugs. I'm going to get a refund for the bulb I bought and grab the 6700K bulb a little later so I'll post up pics when that happens.


just make sure that wood didnt have any sap in it... I would of soaked it for a few days first


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> just make sure that wood didnt have any sap in it... I would of soaked it for a few days first


I'm almost positive it didn't, I split it open in a few places just to double check for bugs as well as any abnormalities and I didn't see anything unusual. It looked like it's been a dead branch for quite a while.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Full tank shot as of 5 minutes ago:


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Its starting to look nice. I would get a plain blue or black background so you don't get the filter in the fish pics. Go to DAAS this Friday.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> Its starting to look nice. I would get a plain blue or black background so you don't get the filter in the fish pics. Go to DAAS this Friday.


I'm thinking about it, my birthday is Thursday and I'm turning 21, so if I don't have a bad hangover on Friday I'll definitely be down to hahaha.

And thanks for the compliment! I probably should get background sometime soon, maybe I'll pick one up tomorrow.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If it were empty, I'd say paint it. I've heard car window-tint film from wal-mart works well.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> If it were empty, I'd say paint it. I've heard car window-tint film from wal-mart works well.


It's too bad I have an HOB filter or else I honestly wouldn't mind the navy blue coloring of my wall. I might be able to score a free background from my LFS if my buddy is working there, we'll see tomorrow.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

You do know that its best to use a sponge filter for a planted tank right?

You have too much movement and aeration in the water for not dosing Co2.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Not sure I agree with that one. Aeration will get both oxygen and Co2 into the water from the air, no reason to suffocate fish to feed the plants.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Yep, increased water flow increases gas exchange and drives CO2 out of the water, replacing it with 02.

In a natural aquarium, CO2 comes from the fish and plant respiration and decomposition of organics by bacteria. This mainly occurs in the substrate, which is yet another reason for not vacuuming the substrate in a planted aquarium, it removes CO2. And there is more CO2 produced by bacteria than the fish and plants. But it is limited, and as plants need a sizable quantity of carbon, it can easily become the first nutrient used up. So it makes sense to keep as much CO2 in the aquarium as possible.

Another point on this is that in water, CO2 takes four times as long to be assimilated by plants as in air. Which is why aquarium plants on the surface or with aerial leaves grow much faster; they have access to CO2 in the air and can assimilate it four times faster that their submersed counterparts. What many authorities refer to as the aerial advantage. So here again we want to retain as much CO2 in the water as possible, so plants have the opportunity to use it.

Which brings us to what drives it out. Water movement via "bubblers" and surface disturbance speed up the gaseous exchange during which CO2 is driven out of the water and Oxygen is brought in. Keeping this minimal will obviously mean more CO2 remains in the water longer, thus being available for plants. Many have argued that the loss is not significant, but I think this is not a reasonable assumption. It is certainly known that in a normal balanced natural (low-tech) planted aquarium, the CO2 is generally used up half way through the day, or perhaps a bit longer depending upon the tank's biology. Once it is gone, plants cannot photosynthesize, so they slow down or shut down. This is where algae takes advantage if the light remains. Which is why we always limit light to prevent algae. The limiting factor to plant growth should be light, not CO2 or some other nutrient. This is also the basis behind the effectiveness of the "siesta" method, having tank lights on for 5 hours, off for 2-3, on for another 5 hours. It is the increase in CO2 during the "siesta" that makes this work.

So what this all means is that nothing should be employed in a natural planted tank to quicken the dissipation of CO2 from the water. I read an article by Takashi Amano he was very clear that no surface disturbance should be created in a nature aquarium, and given the fact that he is very high-tech with CO2 diffusion, he still considers it critical to prevent CO2 loss via excessive water movement. It is even more so in our natural low-tech systems.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Hmmm, that must be why Amano's tanks have so few fish. Natural systems have lots of plants and low fish density. Increasing the aeration and filtration allows overstocking. I'd never advocate pulling off a filter unless I know for sure a tank will be severely understocked. Low-oxygen and lots of decaying organics is plant heaven, but not healthy for fish.

Do you test for CO2 in the water? Use a chart with kH and pH?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> Hmmm, that must be why Amano's tanks have so few fish. Natural systems have lots of plants and low fish density. Increasing the aeration and filtration allows overstocking. I'd never advocate pulling off a filter unless I know for sure a tank will be severely understocked. Low-oxygen and lots of decaying organics is plant heaven, but not healthy for fish.
> 
> Do you test for CO2 in the water? Use a chart with kH and pH?


No, Amano under stocks his tanks because he wants you to focus on his aquascaping. Not because his fish are limited on oxygen. You don't need an air stone or filter to provide oxygen into the tank.

If your tank is planted properly then fish get their oxygen from the plants.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

I mean, I plan on having a decent amount of fish so I think the HOB filter would be a better idea. I agree with the statement where you spoke about the fish getting their O2 from the plants. That was probably the first thing I learned when I picked up my first live plant back in the day. In this case, I want my tank to be fully planted yet still have great aeration from the HOB filter. If the time comes and I want to switch it, I will, but for now I'll stick with what I have. 

In other news, I updated some more of my tank today so I'll post pics up a little later.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Yea HOB filters can be used as well... Its just best to lower the outflow if you have that option.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Yea HOB filters can be used as well... Its just best to lower the outflow if you have that option.


Yeah, I lowered it to the lowest output from day 1 so hopefully that'll help. Thanks for all the advice guys, really appreciate it .


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Oxygen from plants? What happens at night when the plants are using oxygen instead of making it? I never understood people putting Co2 into the tanks 24/7, why not just when the lights are on? I feel like I'm missing some basic tenet of planted tanks. 

You could try a 'liquid carbon supplement' like gluteraldehyde (flourish excel). But how do you know that a plant is 'carbon starved?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

I understand where you're coming from emc.

But, I'm not saying to completely shut off oxygen, the filter SHOULD still produce a water flow sufficient to ensure the water circulates through the tank and filter. This is important for bringing nutrients to the leaves and roots, and keeping the leaves free of sediments while still providing some O2. Notice I said to lower the outflow or use a sponge filter which has a slow bubbler output.

In a biologically balanced aquarium, the amount of oxygen produced during photosynthesis is considerably more than that used by the plants and fish even during the night when the process is reversed, so there should be no concern over oxygen depletion requiring more filtration.

You could use Flourish Excel, but, still if you have an airstone or a high outflow from your filter you drive it out of the water therefor defeat the purpose. I only recommend to use Flourish excel for med - high plant requirements. I prefer to use natural carbon for low light plants.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> I understand where you're coming from emc.
> 
> But, I'm not saying to completely shut off oxygen, the filter SHOULD still produce a water flow sufficient to ensure the water circulates through the tank and filter. This is important for bringing nutrients to the leaves and roots, and keeping the leaves free of sediments while still providing some O2. Notice I said to lower the outflow or use a sponge filter which has a slow bubbler output.
> 
> ...


Ahhhhh, that totally makes sense in terms of the Flourish Excel or any other kind of supplements getting driven out due to a high water flow. However, sometimes when I see professionally aquascaped tanks online, people use the "waterfall" decoration by using an airstone near the back of an aquarium to simulate and try recreating the look of a waterfall. Would this be their only kind of water flow along with a sponge filter, or would you think this idea is really just for show?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Chaos553 said:


> Ahhhhh, that totally makes sense in terms of the Flourish Excel or any other kind of supplements getting driven out due to a high water flow. However, sometimes when I see professionally aquascaped tanks online, people use the "waterfall" decoration by using an airstone near the back of an aquarium to simulate and try recreating the look of a waterfall. Would this be their only kind of water flow along with a sponge filter, or would you think this idea is really just for show?


Its really for show... But, more than likely they aren't just using Natural carbon. That can easily be fixed by upping the amount of C02 injected into the tank.

I agree with emc tho, I never understood why people leave their Co2 running all night when plants wont even consume it. Not only are you causing health risks to your fish, but, also wasting money.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Its really for show... But, more than likely they aren't just using Natural carbon. That can easily be fixed by upping the amount of C02 injected into the tank.
> 
> I agree with emc tho, I never understood why people leave their Co2 running all night when plants wont even consume it. Not only are you causing health risks to your fish, but, also wasting money.


Yeah I agree with that too. It just doesn't make sense to leave it on when plants aren't actively absorbing it. Maybe they should use timers for both the lights and the CO2 tanks to turn off both at the appropriate times, not to waste either one.

I'll be posting a few pics in the morning, I took some tonight and I plan on rearranging a few plants before I actually post them up, so look for them tomorrow!


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE: 

Snapped a few good shots last night and this morning. Ended up picking up two potted Ludwigia Broadleaf as well from my LFS and spread them across the back. First two pics are when they were bunched since I didn't have enough time to separate them because I was busy all day (being my birthday), and the following two were from this morning when I was able to spread them out. Enjoy!

Full tank shot with bunched Ludwigia Broadleaf:









Closer shot of the bunched Ludwigia Broadleaf:









Full tank shot with Ludwigia Broadleaf spread out:









Closer shot of the spread out Ludwigia Broadleaf:


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Starting to get there... I dont really care for that type of Ludwiga tho... But, still looks nice.

I just picked up a whole bunch of plants yesterday myself... I'll post some pics in a bit


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Starting to get there... I dont really care for that type of Ludwiga tho... But, still looks nice.
> 
> I just picked up a whole bunch of plants yesterday myself... I'll post some pics in a bit


It was the only type my LFS can get unfortunately, so it was either between that or Green Hedges, which I don't think would look half as good as the Broadleaf. I ordered two more pots for next week so I can fill up the rest of the back and I'm still on the lookout for some Crypts in my area.

Nice! What did you end up getting? And I'll definitely take a look when you post them up.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Chaos553 said:


> It was the only type my LFS can get unfortunately, so it was either between that or Green Hedges, which I don't think would look half as good as the Broadleaf. I ordered two more pots for next week so I can fill up the rest of the back and I'm still on the lookout for some Crypts in my area.
> 
> Nice! What did you end up getting? And I'll definitely take a look when you post them up.


I tried to aim for low light plants.. The only one that required strong light was the Micro sword (same one you got).. 5 dollars was worth the experiment on that plant.

I ended up getting:

Java Fern, Java Moss, Cryptocoryne (Red wendth), Anubius, Micro Sword and Anacharis


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> I tried to aim for low light plants.. The only one that required strong light was the Micro sword (same one you got).. 5 dollars was worth the experiment on that plant.
> 
> I ended up getting:
> 
> Java Fern, Java Moss, Cryptocoryne (Red wendth), Anubius, Micro Sword and Anacharis


Sounds good! I can't tell how well my Micro Swords are doing yet since they're still pretty new, but I'm sure I'll tell after a month. The red and bronze Crypts look the best IMHO and you grow them all the same way as well. I'm looking to maybe wrap some Java Moss around the wood I put in, but not for a while and whenever I can find some.

Good luck on the setup! What size tank are you going to do?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Its already setup...

Check it out:

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/aqu...-low-light-10-gallon-aquarium.html#post282744


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Looks great!

Plans for next week:

- Ordered 2 more pots of Luwigia Broadleaf
- Moving the rest of my Java Ferns from my 38g to my 33g
- Possibly adding Crypts if I can find them
- Finally adding fish? (Congos, Neons/Harlequins, Otos)
- Water change at some point to replenish my ferts and conditioner

Also, would it make more sense if this thread was moved into the User Journals section? I'm not sure if it's making a mess with all of the replies and whatnot within the General Freshwater topic, if so, I wouldn't mind a moderator moving it, just give me a heads up that it's been done haha.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

What are you doing for ferts btw? Using any Flourish products?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You won't need a background with a few well-place tall plants. Its looking good. Let us know how the micro swords do. 

Do you think short plants on a shelf right under the light would look too weird? I don't want CO2, but I keep wanting to try a few med. light plants.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

*Mr. Fish*: As of right now I'm using FloraPride made by TetraPlant. I'm doing one to two water changes weekly since I keep adding in new plants so I'm only replenishing it little by little to make sure I'm not overdosing it. Would Flourish products work better and if so, they come in liquid form correct?

*emc7*: Yeah I agree, I threw out the background idea once I put the Broadleafs in, especially since I'm getting two more pots next week and will do with the Micro Swords! As for your plant keeping idea, I think it all really depends on the light you are using as well as the substrate and ferts you plan on using as well. I had a 10g that just had a few Amazon Swords along with some Java Ferns attached to rocks with a sand substrate for a bit and it came out pretty well, the sand just got really frustrating and messy so I ended up tearing the tank down and putting the remains in my 38g. If you end up doing it let us know, I'm sure Mr. Fish and I would love to lend you a hand.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> You won't need a background with a few well-place tall plants. Its looking good. Let us know how the micro swords do.
> 
> Do you think short plants on a shelf right under the light would look too weird? I don't want CO2, but I keep wanting to try a few med. light plants.


Why would you need a shelf?

From what a friend has been telling me who has been doing planted tanks for over 20 years is that 'WPG theory' is not really accurate. He said he has barley 1 wpg on all his 8 tanks and can grow moderate light plants well with no C02.

Which plants were you thinking of trying? I'll ask him



Chaos553 said:


> *Mr. Fish*: As of right now I'm using FloraPride made by TetraPlant. I'm doing one to two water changes weekly since I keep adding in new plants so I'm only replenishing it little by little to make sure I'm not overdosing it. Would Flourish products work better and if so, they come in liquid form correct?


Honestly, I've never tried Florapride, but, I do know a lot of well respected planted aquarist that stand behind Flourish Comp. Its proven to work, so thats what I went with. Yes, its a liquid bottle that will last you for quite awhile. You only dose 1-2 times per week and keep it refrigerated


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Honestly, I've never tried Florapride, but, I do know a lot of well respected planted aquarist that stand behind Flourish Comp. Its proven to work, so thats what I went with. Yes, its a liquid bottle that will last you for quite awhile. You only dose 1-2 times per week and keep it refrigerated


I'll be on the lookout for it then. I haven't really seen any results yet from FloraPride since it's still early on, but if I happen to see it in stores while I'm browsing or picking up plants, I'll be sure give it a shot.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Most LFS have it...

The brand is Seachem, just make sure you get Flourish Comp and not Flourish Excel


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Most LFS have it...
> 
> The brand is Seachem, just make sure you get Flourish Comp and not Flourish Excel


Gotcha, sounds good, thanks.

Just a minor update, I don't think my Micros are doing too well, even with a high amount of light in the aquarium. If they start wilting within the next few days I may just scoop them all out and order some carpet Crypts online, but I'll be sure to update if I do of course.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

What, what are they doing?


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> What, what are they doing?


They look like they're wilting, some leaves are brown (aka dead) while others are slowly turning yellow. I'm gonna give them a few more days since I did happen to find a place that had Flourish Comp, I just didn't know exactly which one to get at that moment in time (between Excel, Comp, and the normal) but now I know for sure it's Comp. I'll keep you updated, how's your potted one doing?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Sometimes while the plants adjust they tend to do that... But start dosing that Flourish comp twice a week and hopefully it does a turn around..

The one in my tank is still bright green, but, its still way too early to tell...
You're doing atleast 9-10 hours right?


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Sometimes while the plants adjust they tend to do that... But start dosing that Flourish comp twice a week and hopefully it does a turn around..
> 
> The one in my tank is still bright green, but, its still way too early to tell...
> You're doing atleast 9-10 hours right?


Yeah, 10 max. I'll go pick a bottle of it up in a bit.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

I can't seem to find the bottle on the site, is it specifically called "Flourish comp" or is it called something else because I can't locate it. Here's the link to the site:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Flourish.html


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I think they mean the one that just says "flourish" the subtitle is starts with "comprehensive"


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> I think they mean the one that just says "flourish" the subtitle is starts with "comprehensive"


Yeah I think you're right. No one in the area seems to have it other than one store so I can't even properly price them out. The guy was selling his bottle for like 12.99, which could be the actual price, but honestly to me that seemed a little steep. I tried finding it online too but I haven't had very much luck.

In other news, I plan on doing a water change and picking out some wilted Micros in a bit, as well as add some more FloraPride. My pH has also been a little high lately so I've been using pH neutralizer to knock it back down to 7. Hopefully I can get it around there in time to pick some fish up on Thursday finally.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

IME, SeaChem products are very good. They are well researched and tested and have nice clear dosing instructions, but they are never cheap, even online. On the other hand, a bottle can last a long time when you only have one tank.

It's not hard to find online, but unless you spend $60, you'd pay another $7 shipping. http://www.petmountain.com/product/plant-supplements/11442-503312/seachem-flourish.html

Your sword issues are likely your low light. Float a few of them right under the bulb and see if they perk up.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> IME, SeaChem products are very good. They are well researched and tested and have nice clear dosing instructions, but they are never cheap, even online. On the other hand, a bottle can last a long time when you only have one tank.
> 
> It's not hard to find online, but unless you spend $60, you'd pay another $7 shipping. http://www.petmountain.com/product/plant-supplements/11442-503312/seachem-flourish.html
> 
> Your sword issues are likely your low light. Float a few of them right under the bulb and see if they perk up.


Oh I don't think I mentioned that I picked up a Power-Glo since I'm doing the Ludwigia Broadleaf since they need medium light, I figured it would only benefit the Micros in the long run. I wanted a Life-Glo but everyone only has the smaller sizes, not the 48" one I need.

I'll look into the link you posted since I'm all done with maintenance. I'm glad everyone's behind me on this Flourish fertilizer because it seems like every LFS I go to says that Flourish isn't the best and never give me a straight answer on a specific chemical, unless it relates to a CO2 system. I've read nothing but good reviews on Flourish and any Seachem products TBH, and I trust your guys' judgment, so I'll grab a bottle soon.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Yea, 12.99 is not bad at all depending on the size of bottle.

Its actually pretty cheap, it will last you nearly a year.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Yea, 12.99 is not bad at all depending on the size of bottle.
> 
> Its actually pretty cheap, it will last you nearly a year.


Mmmmm, sounds good, I'll go pick it up later today ;P.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

I actually didn't get a chance to pick up the bottle of Flourish yesterday so I'm leaving in a bit to get it. 

I also observed my Micro Swords this morning and realized that only about half of them wilted, so there's a possibility that the others will survive. I plan on pruning the wilted ones out sometime later today and replanting them all up front again, crossing my fingers that the remains stay alive.

My Ludwigia Broadleaf plants should be in on Thursday so I'll most likely take pictures/update the tank status at that time.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds good, i'm bout to start doing some replanting myself right now... and will show pics when i'm done


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Sounds good, i'm bout to start doing some replanting myself right now... and will show pics when i'm done


I'll keep looking at your thread whenever you update it, can't wait to see the pictures! .

I had a quick question about altering the tank temperature. I keep having problems knocking the temperature down from about 83 degrees and I'm afraid it may be a little to iffy for some fish, to cool it down I can dump a whole tray of ice cubes in right? I know to induce spawning for some fish that's the method and it signifies rainfall, but I figured it would also help lower the water temperature.

Depending on what my LFS has tomorrow when I go pick up my Ludwigia, I may pick up fish as well (as long as my pH isn't spiking). I'll be sure to update/take pictures when the time comes.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Chaos553 said:


> I'll keep looking at your thread whenever you update it, can't wait to see the pictures! .
> 
> I had a quick question about altering the tank temperature. I keep having problems knocking the temperature down from about 83 degrees and I'm afraid it may be a little to iffy for some fish, to cool it down I can dump a whole tray of ice cubes in right? I know to induce spawning for some fish that's the method and it signifies rainfall, but I figured it would also help lower the water temperature.
> 
> Depending on what my LFS has tomorrow when I go pick up my Ludwigia, I may pick up fish as well (as long as my pH isn't spiking). I'll be sure to update/take pictures when the time comes.


Lol bro, if you dump a whole tray of ice cubes into your tank more than likely all your fish will die and so will your plants from temp shock. 

Best thing to do to lower your temp is to do gradual water changes every two days putting a little lower on temp, but, not much. Turn your heater down, 83 is way too high for your plants to even survive. Most prefer 76F.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Lol bro, if you dump a whole tray of ice cubes into your tank more than likely all your fish will die and so will your plants from temp shock.
> 
> Best thing to do to lower your temp is to do gradual water changes every two days putting a little lower on temp, but, not much. Turn your heater down, 83 is way too high for your plants to even survive. Most prefer 76F.


I can't control the temperature though...I've had my heater off for the past 3 days and because it's been so warm out, it hasn't gone below 80. I'll just do the water change idea then I guess with a little cooler water than I usually do.

I also cleaned out the wilted Micro Swords, replanting what's left. I'm gonna go on a whim and say some of them just weren't doing well because while cleaning them off, I saw that almost all of them sprouted new leaves and roots. I guess only time will tell, hopefully round two will be better haha.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You can drop the water level so you get evaporative cooling or even blow a fan across the water's surface. Good plant lights often make for hot tanks. Plenty of plants do fine in 83F, people do keep plants in discus tanks. I'd be more worried about low oxygen for fish, but you don't have fish.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> You can drop the water level so you get evaporative cooling or even blow a fan across the water's surface. Good plant lights often make for hot tanks. Plenty of plants do fine in 83F, people do keep plants in discus tanks. I'd be more worried about low oxygen for fish, but you don't have fish.


That's very true. I may just blow a fan across the water's surface for the time being, it's very out of the ordinary for my 33g to get that hot though. Hopefully once I get my AC in it'll be a completely different story. Thanks for the advice .


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> You can drop the water level so you get evaporative cooling or even blow a fan across the water's surface. Good plant lights often make for hot tanks. Plenty of plants do fine in 83F, people do keep plants in discus tanks. I'd be more worried about low oxygen for fish, but you don't have fish.


I agree with dropping the water level to get evaporative cooling. Thats a good idea. Also the fan across the surface should work.

But, i've never heard of plants thriving in 83F. If so, which plants are we talking about? (I could be mistaken)


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

A quick search for discus + plants produced lots of lists. Many discus keepers have live plants.



> Aquarium Plants for the Discus Aquarium.
> 
> Not only does the addition of aquarium plants help to boost oxygen levels but also helps to rid the water column of toxins and improve water quality for your Discus. Here is a list of the plants for the Discus aquarium. Keep in mind that these aquarium plants do well in those conditions for Discus but are not all found in the South American Region.
> 
> ...


from: http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/amazonbiotope/discus.html


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

emc7 said:


> A quick search for discus + plants produced lots of lists. Many discus keepers have live plants.
> 
> 
> 
> from: http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/amazonbiotope/discus.html


It may very well be that it is NOT the temperature that affects the plants but rather the low O2 levels. At higher temperatures the bacterial metabolism accelerates and uses up lots of O2 for nutrient recycling.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

So keeping the fan on the tank last night was a really great idea. The temperature dropped from a drastic 86 degrees, down to about 82-80 when I woke up. I'll turn the heater up just a little to be able to stabilize this temperature.

I'm picking up my Broadleafs today and possibly some fish. They had an abundance of Serpae Tetras when I checked down their yesterday, so I may actually end up with those if they don't have a good amount of Congos or Neons. I'll update/post pics once this all gets done.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Picked up my Broadleaves and moved a few things around. Pictures follow, enjoy!

Full-tank shot. Notice how much bigger the previous Broadleaves got in 6 days hahaha:









Sprouts and roots on the Broadleaves:









Longer roots, I plan on pruning them and replanting the top pieces next week:









Tops of the plant became a reddish color, looks awesome:

















Java Fern garden:









Anubias:









I'm not too sure the name of the plant, but it grew tremendously in my 38g so I pruned a few pieces and planted them in here. Anyone have an idea of what the name is?:









I didn't end up getting any fish today since my pH is still iffy, but I'll have the problem fixed after the weekend and get fish next week, not really in a rush anyway ;P.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Discus keepers feed their fish heavily, aerate heavily and are religious about water changes. I suspect they use plant substrates to feed the plants rather the liquid ferts because the water changes would take them right back out.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

What's going on with your pH? Is it bouncing around?


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> What's going on with your pH? Is it bouncing around?


It keeps jumping up to basic, so its 7.0+. I took a reading this morning of 7.4 and then took a reading of my tap water which was 7.0. 

I've been using a pH stabilizer by Seachem that lowers or raises your pH depending on where it's at whenever I do a water change, and I still have difficulty keeping it at around 7.0. Would a 50% water change with the stabilizer be a better bet?


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Your plants are coming along nicely... If you're seeing root growth thats good news.

Thats a whole lot of java fern you got there... You must of spent a pretty penny because they are very expensive around here.

The only thing I noticed you're doing wrong is burying the rhimzone of the anaubius and Java fern... That will cause the rhimzone to rot and kill your plant which I'm sure you're aware of since we discussed that in my thread.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Your plants are coming along nicely... If you're seeing root growth thats good news.
> 
> Thats a whole lot of java fern you got there... You must of spent a pretty penny because they are very expensive around here.
> 
> The only thing I noticed you're doing wrong is burying the rhimzone of the anaubius and Java fern... That will cause the rhimzone to rot and kill your plant which I'm sure you're aware of since we discussed that in my thread.


Thanks for the compliments!

Actually, it started with one bulb and I've grown Java Ferns for about 3-4 years or so, making these the results of all that. I figured I'd plant them all in the same area for the time being since it doesn't look half bad, but for both plants I will raise them up a little higher, thanks for reminding me. I plan on moving the Anubias to the opposite side anyway because it looks a little empty so when I do that later, I'll make sure it's out of the gravel.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Yea I just attach em to rocks or driftwood...


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Mr. fish said:


> Yea I just attach em to rocks or driftwood...


Same. What method do you use? I used to do rubber bands but I started using fishing line since it's see through.


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## Mr. fish (Mar 8, 2011)

Chaos553 said:


> Same. What method do you use? I used to do rubber bands but I started using fishing line since it's see through.


Either black cotton thread, fishing line or rubberbands...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

cotton thread disintegrates over time. It just vanishes as bacteria eat it. Use it with driftwood or things the plant itself will attach to, use synthetic thread for applications where it needs to last.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

No fish this weekend so far, unless my pH stabilizes soon. Anyone know if the pH Down chemical will harm plants?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

peat or driftwood lowers pH safely for plants. "Blackwater extract" will have the same effect, low pH & brown water. DIY CO2 drops pH also. pH Down is just HCl and that will burn plants if you hit it with it, but the bigger issue is that pH will bounce right back up, really a waste of effort. Seachems 'acid regulator' will lower pH and hold it, but it contains phosphate buffers, so it could feed your plants or it could cause an algae bloom. What is your TDS, gH or kH? Knowing pH without hardness doesn't tell you much. 

What is your aim? IMO, 7.0 is a horrible target for pH. The water chemistry is always changing. Its better to pick either 6.5 or 7.5 and hold on one side of 7 or the other. A tank will cycle faster above 7. Do you have a list of your plants and desired fish and what conditions they prefer?


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> peat or driftwood lowers pH safely for plants. "Blackwater extract" will have the same effect, low pH & brown water. DIY CO2 drops pH also. pH Down is just HCl and that will burn plants if you hit it with it, but the bigger issue is that pH will bounce right back up, really a waste of effort. Seachems 'acid regulator' will lower pH and hold it, but it contains phosphate buffers, so it could feed your plants or it could cause an algae bloom. What is your TDS, gH or kH? Knowing pH without hardness doesn't tell you much.
> 
> What is your aim? IMO, 7.0 is a horrible target for pH. The water chemistry is always changing. Its better to pick either 6.5 or 7.5 and hold on one side of 7 or the other. A tank will cycle faster above 7. Do you have a list of your plants and desired fish and what conditions they prefer?


I'm probably going to aim for 7.5+/- about 0.2 for the time being since that's what it's fluctuating between at the moment. I brought a water sample to my LFS today to double check that my readings were correct and did a high pH test as well to double check that the numbers were correct. All I kept seeing was around 7.4-7.5, so I guess I'll maintain it at that.

As for a gH and a kH test kit, I don't own one and have never tested for it, but I can easily go pick one up.

I could probably get fish, but I'd have to check the pH that they're kept in at the store or else they might not adapt well when put in my tank. I'm probably going to skip the Neon idea for now since they're pretty sensitive to pH changes and go with something more hardier, I'm just having trouble deciding. Right now my options are:

-Serpaes: Definitely adds a nice color contradiction to the green plants, possibly about 10-15 of them.

-Congos: Hearty fish, start small but get larger and with age comes great coloration, absolutely love the larger ones I have in my 38g right now. Pretty expensive around the area though =/.

-Grab Bag: Basically a bunch of different fish, even though I'm trying to stick to a species only (possibly even a single school). 

I thought about Tiger Barbs but I remember them liking acidic water, pH between 6.0-7.0 or something, even though they can take pH up to 8.0, plus they're omnivores so it probably wouldn't be a good idea. 

You guys have any other suggestions? I'm open for anything, I really just wanna keep it one species and hopefully school as well.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you think you'll do CO2, even DIY, in the future, get the kH test. You can back calculate from kH and pH to get CO2 levels. 

A spot test (let the store do it) might be enough to get a rough idea. The higher the hardness, the harder the pH is to move. Really low hardness water tends to have more pH flux and you are more likely to need to intervene. I have a little TDS pen like the link below. It gives me an estimate of total dissolved solids from a conductivity measure. They are cheap and often sold with water filtering pitchers. Test is quick and will test you if pet store water is full of salt before you dump the fish in the tank. But it won't tell you what specifically is in the water. There are separate tests for just about every ion. Even neater is a pen meter that test pH/TDS/temp, but these are real money. Whether you need any of these tests depends are whether you intend keep watching and/or changing your pH. If you find that weekly water changes of a certain percent keep you tank in an acceptable range and you choose fish and plants that use that range, you can likely forgo regular testing of pH and hardness and just spot check it once in a while like when you are concerned about a plant. I find that people on the forums really like everyone to buy test kits because it's so much easier to answer questions with real data to start from. But if the choice is a "master test kit" or a bigger filter, I'd recommend the filter.
http://www.amazon.com/Intellitec-WP...8?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1307167071&sr=1-8


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

I'm probably going to steer clear of CO2 just for the moment since my plants are doing pretty well without it.

I'll be sure to check the pH parameters and hardness of the water while I'm at the store (as well as bring in a sample of my water to test the hardness too). I've never tried to personally adapt fish to a specific pH, but if the pH is at 7.0 at the store and my pH is at around 7.5, would there be a possibility of them dying? In this case I'm avoiding Neons like I stated, but just say Serpaes or Congos for example.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The more its off, the more carefully you want to acclimate. Maybe make a small QT tank of clean water to match the store parameters and then let it come close to yours gradually by changing water. Its safer to move fish from softer to harder, colder to warmer, and lower pH to higher pH. Go slow when going the other way. But starting as close as possible is safer.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> The more its off, the more carefully you want to acclimate. Maybe make a small QT tank of clean water to match the store parameters and then let it come close to yours gradually by changing water. Its safer to move fish from softer to harder, colder to warmer, and lower pH to higher pH. Go slow when going the other way. But starting as close as possible is safer.


Sounds good, thanks for your help! I'll probably make a trip later to pick a few fish up after I find out the pH parameters.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

Actually, I think I may be able to go with Tiger Barbs. Even though they are omnivores, they like being/are more comfortable within planted aquariums. Anyone have any objections to this? I was going to pick up maybe 8-10 so they could school together.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

It's to my great pleasure to finally tell you that my tank now has fish! *applause.* My LFS was selling medium sized Tiger Barbs for a little more expensive than I planned on paying, so I started small with 6 Harlequin Rasboras and 3 Congo Tetras. However, I think I'm probably going to end up moving the Congos downstairs to join my other Congos, helping me maximize my Rasbora output. If they all survive the night with no trouble I'll probably go back down tomorrow and pick up 6-10 more Rasboras to really fill the tank and school. Also, if I can order Black Neons from my LFS I may split it half Rasbora half Black Neon, but we'll see. I'll try taking pictures later.


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE:

Picked up 6 more Harlequin Rasboras to add to the previous 6 I already had making the school at 12. Also picked up 6 Oto Cats to help with my algae problems that may occur as well as eat off the remaining food on ground. No pictures yet because my tanks been a little cloudy, but as soon as it clears up I'll post a few. Keep checking back!


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

UPDATE: I think I'm done stocking my tank for now. The Serpaes at my LFS looked really healthy so I picked up a school of 8 as well as a Dwarf Neon Gourami as sort of a centerpiece fish. I've had no casualties so far from previous fish I've purchased and I've been pruning my Ludwigia Broadleaf like CRAZY since they grow like wildfire. I picked a few pictures to post below. Enjoy!

Full tank shot. The backdrop looks a little scarce since I pruned all the Broadleaf due to how tall they were. They should fill out within the next week or so.









All the tops of my Broadleaf branches look like this, absolutely beautiful .









I guess my Micro Swords are growing, just very slowly.









My adult Ludwigia Broadleaf plants.









On of my favorite pics, my Otos are having a council meeting .









Dwarf Neon Gourami.









School of Serpaes, pretty tough to photograph as all you know with Tetras.


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## grogan (Jan 23, 2011)

Good job on the plants, tank looks great. Soon you will be trimming them weekly and they make for a steady source of store credit at the LFS. That pic of the otos cracks me up lol


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## Chaos553 (Apr 2, 2007)

grogan said:


> Good job on the plants, tank looks great. Soon you will be trimming them weekly and they make for a steady source of store credit at the LFS. That pic of the otos cracks me up lol


Thanks! Yeah Otos have quite the personality, they'll even school with my Tetras just because if they come close enough.


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