# What the HAY is going on with my cycle?



## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

I dunno what's been going on, but I've had ammonia in a fishless tank for the past three weeks At LEAST, and the only reason it's gone down at all is because of the water changes I did to get it down from over 8 ppm. There was a single nerite snail in there for about a week, and now it's up from 3ppm to 4ppm. Has the amount of Ammonia in there just been keeping any of the ammonia eating bacteria from growing? And why is it that the Nitrite eating bacteria seem to be doing just dandy? The Nitrites have gone down from about 1ppm to between 0 and 0.25ppm. Please tell me there's just too much ammonia in there for the bacteria to grow so I can know that all that needs to be done is a large water change to get the ammonia down to levels which will allow the bacteria to grow. :/


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Things that stall a cycle: 

Too much ammonia - aim for 3 ppm or lower
No ammonia eating bacteria - add a "seed" product or used media
Not enough ammonia - feed it something - aim for 0.5 ppm or higher
Not enough "media" for the ammonia-eaters to live on - add a filter or second filter, or more flow or more sponge to existing filter.
Low pH - add a 1/4 tsp baking soda and recheck daily


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

hope this makes it easier to understand....
happy reading
Fishless Cycling 

Once you start to cycle do no cleaning. Messing with your tank removes the bacteria and starts your cycle over again. This can not be stressed enough. Do not change the gravel, mess with the filters and play around with pH adjusters, etc. If you do, you will delay the cycling process. No water changes are needed doing the fishless cycle.

Bacteria grows faster in warmer temperatures with lots of oxygen so turn your heater up to 82 and add an air stone or bubbler if you have one. 

Unless you have well water, you must always use a de-chlorinator. The chlorine in your water supply will kill bacteria immediately. Many water municipals also use chloramines as a means of sterilization so get a product that removes chlorine and chloramines. Most water conditioners now do both. Storing water does not remove chloramines.

There is more than one way to do a “fishless cycle”. You can feed the tank fish flakes or use a piece of “raw” shrimp or fish in a nylon stocking and anchor it to the bottom of the tank. (Must be underwater and may get stinky.) Many are now using PURE ammonia to get the level up instantly rather than waiting for shrimp or flakes to rot. This article is only about cycling with pure ammonia.

HOW MUCH AMMONIA TO ADD: Now pay attention!!!!

This is determined by the size of your tank. A 55 gallon will be stocking more fish than a 10 gallon so obviously you need to grow more bacteria in larger tanks. You also have larger filters on larger tanks for the bacteria to grow in. 

No one can tell you how many drops it will take to bring your ammonia level up to a correct dosage so this is why you need a tester. If you have a tank of perhaps 40 gallon and up, ammonia can be added to read between 4-5ppm’s to get your cycle started.

If your tank is a small tank, will hold only a few fish and has a small filter, then you should began your cycle with far less ammonia…..perhaps only 1-2ppms. You do not need to grow a ton of bacteria for a few small fish.

If you are in doubt about the ammonia to purchase, give it a good shake. If it foams, do not buy it. If it forms a few bubbles at the top that quickly break up, then it is OK to purchase. Read the label. If scents or detergents are added do not buy it. It will be listed on the label or ingredient list.

To Began.....

Add some ammonia to your tank, wait for it to get circulated by the filter and then test. If it needs a tad more, then add a tad more. And then DO NOTHING! Leave the tank alone. Nothing is going to happen for several days so no point in wasting testing solutions and fretting over the cycle yet.
(Make sure you have added dechlorinator when you set the tank up.)

After a few days, began to test for ammonia levels. Nitrosomona bacteria needs time to grow. As it grows, ammonia levels will slowly began to drop. Slowly at first but as more bacteria grows, ammonia levels will drop very quickly.....within hours. 

You should began to very soon see nitrites, perhaps after only dosing the tank once or twice. When that happens, now only add ammonia of one/half of your original dose when you started. Ammonia is only redosed when previous dose has dropped to 0 and only one time a day. 

Nitrites will continue to climb each day, also growing bacteria. You may have nitrites register on your tester for a couple weeks but one day you will check and they will be 0. That is when you have your cycled tank! You will have high nitrAtes when you tank is done cycling. Do a large water change to bring those nitrates down to under 20 and you can began to add your fish. 

If for some reason there will be a delay in adding fish at this time, add a wee bit of ammonia each day to your tank to keep that bacteria fed. But make sure those numbers are 0 before adding any fish.

A faster cycle is achieved by adding used filter media from another fish tank. If you have a friend that has a tank, steal some of his filter media. If you can not do that, have him vacuum his gravel and give you the nasty stuff he pulls up. (Mulm)

Bacterium does not live in the water so transferring of water will not help with a faster cycle.

Bacteria Boosters are not used for fishless cycling. It does no good to add ammonia and then dump in a booster that reduces the ammonia.

There are several reasons that a fishless cycle may fail.
1/ Not using a de-chlorinator
2/ Not reducing the amount of ammonia during the nitrite stage.
3/ Changing your filter media or cleaning the gravel or adding chemicals that you don’t need to add.
4/ Not having the patience to wait for the nitrite levels to drop.
5/ Over-dosing ammonia by starting with too much or adding more than once a day.

You should be able to achieve a fishless cycle in 3 weeks or less. Not everyone has the same results in cycling. Water temperature, oxygen, hardness and softness of each persons water makes cycling all a bit different for each of us. Do not get frustrated or think you have done something wrong if your cycle does not go exactly as another persons cycle went for them.


Cycling a tank is easy. People make it hard !! 

Your fish will thank you for not subjecting them to toxic water conditions and taking the time to cycle the tank before bringing them home.


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

There must simply be too much ammonia. sigh. I was afraid that's what it was. So I need to change some water to bring it down a little. The Nitrite cycle seems to have come and gone, but the ammonia eaters haven't been able to catch up it seems. I have not added any ammonia since the initial dose. and having the snail living in there for a bit.

I have quite a lot of surface area in the tank for bacteria to grow on, besides the filter and substrate. If you haven't seen the picture, it's in my setup photo album (the 10 gal, not the 5 gal hex). Oh, and the filter is a Fluval aquaclear #20. Perhaps the problem is the bottle of ammonia I purchased. This is exactly what the ingredients list says:
Ammonium Hydroxide, Surfactant, Fragrance and Colorant. Contains no Phosphorus.

I also find that I can smell nothing other than ammonia when the bottle is open, but that the ammonia does indeed foam when shaken. The bottle is labeled "HDX Lemon Ammonia", and that's the ONLY thing I could find at Home Depot that was ammonia, and not just something with a little ammonia added. Where in the world am I supposed to find proper ammonia? Lowes, maybe? A Chemist?

Hmmm... I added a few of the little bio-blocs from my other cycled tank's filter and the only one I can see seems to be covered in algae or some other green something, while everything else is pristine. Should I just get some *real* ammonia somewhere, change out the water in my tank and start over? Only thing is, I HAVE been getting nitrites, but the ammonia is still sky-high. I ALWAYS use Dechlor; my product is Wardley Watercare "Chlor Out". 

And yes, Weedkiller. I have read up on fishless cycling many times on this forum, but never read about this particular problem occuring. So, your post really didn't tell me much that I didn't already know. Thanks for trying to help a fishy brother out, though. :/

Oh, and there is one more thing. We haven't discussed the subject of water temperature. Though I do have a curtain of bubbles blowing constantly in the back of my aquarium, the water heater I bought has an internal thermostat which keeps the temp relatively steady at 78 +- 2 degrees. I cannot change this.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

if you live in usa you want a ace hardware store and get ace household ammonia, from what I understand that is pure ammonia after I researched for another usa member, here in uk its jeys blast off household ammonia. (waits for the post for someone telling to wee in the tank )
if it froths its a no no, if that's what you have added it will have additives , I would suggest a total water change, the additives can harm your fish if not diluted enough 
there is a calculator on some sites that will help you with how much ammonia to add to how much water.
once you are at 3ppm test after a couple of days to see if your ammonia has dropped then test every 24 hours, once it drops you should see nitrites, once you get there let us know


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

THANK YOU!!! Short and sweet is basically the answer I was looking for, and you have helped immensely with this last post. 

And I am definitely gonna do a very large water change now, since today, I asked my Pops and he says that surfactant is a fancy word for (soap... Bleah!) I am QUITE certain that *that* can't be good for any fish, sooooo, yeah. I've got an ACE Hardware in town so I can check it out tomorrow, or atleast Clean out the water in the tank so that it'll be harmful-stuff-free when I get paid on Friday, after which I'll be able to start fresh and make a proper cycle. I'm pleased to say that there is not enough soap in the water to cause the bubble-strip to form mats of bubbles on the surface, though the bubbles do not pop immediately, but drift a little, and there are small foamy spots wherever something protrudes from the water. Like the tips of the too-tall plant I got which is in the back right corner.

Anyway, I know I tend to ramble, but I'm a firm believer in providing as much information as possible to allow for easy answering of questions and such. Saves time, cutting out the "middle post" or post asking for pics or detailed description of some part of the tank or other.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I agree with the 100% water change. Lemon scent and surfactant may not harm fish, but it might, or it might hurt filter bacteria. The label doesn't tell you which surfactant or how much, so better to be safe. No need to bleach or anything, though. You can just feed it something that rots. Fish food, food shrimp, bread, urine, hamburger, whatever. It just makes it harder to fine tune the ammonia level than using actual ammonia.

If you already have a "cycled" tank, I'd just run the new tank's filter on it for a few weeks, then move it over. Unless you have one of those "all-in-one" tanks that prevents it. A bit of media should be enough seed. Do it twice, once when you have ammonia and again when you see nitrite. 

"cycling" should be easy, but something always goes wrong. Good luck.,


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

100% water change yesterday. There's some organic material in there, rotting, so that's good. Gonna check the ammonia level in a couple days and get some of that "ACE Household Ammonia" tomorrow when I get my paycheck. This time, hopefully, everything will go alright.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

fingers crossed


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

Went to Ace and found the right stuff, then added it to about 3ppm. Now I just wait, right? And then add more when it gets to 0? Yup. So... Add Ammonia, [check]. Allow to return to 0, [ ]. Repeat, [ ]. Reduce dosage when nitrites appear, [ ]. Add fish when nitrites return to 0 [ ].

Can't wait.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

Trout said:


> Add fish when nitrites return to 0 [ ].
> 
> Can't wait.


not quite...
when ammonia starts to drop then check nitrites, keep adding ammonia to 2ppm till nitrites drop to 0 and check nitrates.... if ammonia and nitrites are 0 over a 12 hour period and nitrates are high do a large water change with de chlorinated water add more ammo to 2ppm and retest ammonia and nitrite after 12 hours... if then they are 0 and nitrates are below 30ppm you are good to go, you will need to keep an eye on ammo/nitrites/nitrates over next few weeks and only add a few fish 1st off as its still a new tank


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## Dilligaf_1 (Jan 28, 2013)

Great replies weedkiller, I have never cycled a tank using the fishless method, excellent explanation on how to do it TY.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

np  glad to assist


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

Blargh! Eet 'as been two days and I 'ave not tested ze vater yet to see whezzer ze ammonia 'as done any dropping! I suppose I shall do zat today.

A side note: Ze Brown Algae or Diatoms or vhatever zey are are still growing nicely... Per'aps ze first fishes vill be Otocinculus.


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

It's been four days since I added the ammonia. Tested the water this morning and the ammonia was down between .5 and .25ppm. Soon it will be time. I suppose I'll check tomorrow too, to see if it's gone to 0 and then I'll be looking for Nitrites and adding ammonia at a half dose if the Nitrites are present.

I was impatient and tested nitrites right after I posted that ^. Turns out the Nitrites are at 1ppm. I guess I'll half the ammonia dose when I add it next. Which should be quite soon if logic holds true.


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

So, today I tested for Ammonia and Nitrites. The previous time I had tested ammonia, it had somehow come out at 4ppm, when somehow 6 drops yielded me 3ppm, and I added 3 drops (once the ammonia was at 0ppm and the nitrites had shown up), and somehow it was 4ppm. Oh well. Anyway, today I tested them and got 0ppm Ammonia and 0ppm Nitrites. And the Nitrates appeared at 20ppm.

I'll add a little ammonia this evening and when I get up in the morning do another test. Then I guess I'll know whether the tank is ready or not.

How should I add my fish? I'm thinking I should add a couple Otocinculus first because the tank is starting to grow algae... bleagh. What is your opinion?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you did the "fishless" cycle correctly, that is, added as much ammonia daily as the fish would produce, then you are supposed to change all the water and immediately add all the fish. Add fewer fish, add the bacteria will die back to the level of the ongoing feeding, and you'll have a mini-cycle when you scale up. But adding slowly is probably what I would do. 

Actually, I would move the danios out of the five and, if they are fine in a week, move the cories. Maybe move the snail back and forth for algae control. otos are super fragile and should go in last.


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

O MY GLOB!!! I am sick of not being able to see my posts till hours after they've been posted! I didn't see the one I'd put up earlier today till after I posted this one which said almost exactly the same thing, sooo... I'm deleting the text.


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

Put the 3 danios in the new tank yesterday. No clamped fins, and behaviour as usual, except sometimes one of them will go balistic in the corner and dig up the gravel. When she's not doing that, they all three like to hide underneath the "plants" which is what they spent most of their time doing in the other tank. I get the feeling Pearl Danios prefer lurking to dithering. The corys are staying in the 5gal, and I'm debating whether to move the betta to the new tank, where I had originally intended to put her.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

Trout said:


> O MY GLOB!!! I am sick of not being able to see my posts till hours after they've been posted! I didn't see the one I'd put up earlier today till after I posted this one which said almost exactly the same thing, sooo... I'm deleting the text.


try running ccleaner from piriform.com, clean your internet and registry and repeat till it shows no more or little of the same.



Trout said:


> Put the 3 danios in the new tank yesterday. No clamped fins, and behaviour as usual, except sometimes one of them will go balistic in the corner and dig up the gravel. When she's not doing that, they all three like to hide underneath the "plants" which is what they spent most of their time doing in the other tank. I get the feeling Pearl Danios prefer lurking to dithering. The corys are staying in the 5gal, and I'm debating whether to move the betta to the new tank, where I had originally intended to put her.


sounds like you are finally there, congratz  add slowly and keep an eye, sounds like you got it covered


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## kcrunch (Aug 17, 2012)

Trout
What test kit are you using ?


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## Trout (Mar 16, 2011)

API Freshwater Master Test Kit.

And funny thing is, I actually already have CCleaner on my computer. I think I'll try just that.


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