# Cichlids always fighting



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

My african cichlids will not hide in there caves that I have made for them, I have re-arranged the rocks more then once and they still dont hide. WHY? All they do is swim around up at the top of the tank beating on each other.... I had to start up a 10 gal hospital tank because my "Yellow lab" ? was in pretty bad shape.. they are good sized fish but I'm wondering if I should have put another in there... I'm not sure how many africans would be comfortable in a 10 gal.... My fish's fins are all ripped up, they are all stressed out.. there color comes and goes.... I need to get a bigger tank but I'm seriously strapped for cash.. The only thing that makes sense to me is there's too many fish in my tank and they are miserable. Looking for answer's I'm tired of my fish always looking like crap. Please help me....


----------



## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

what size tank and what fish are stocked?


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

20 Gal Long, I have a yellow lab or a metriaclima estherae not sure which, electric blue johanni, red fin borleyi(i think), german red shoulder... The other 2 I cant remember what they are called... I believe one is similar to the johanni, but it is black with blue horizontal stripes... Not sure,,, easier for me since I'm still learning and suck at explaining.. here's a link to my youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPLpdvwOEbw I posted this last month i believe.. This is what they do all day, they dont really hide in the caves I make for them and I dont understand why... since this video they have started to really beat on each other.. I have video's going up right now, showing how bad they are from the beatfest that's been going on..  I just dont get it... Thank you so much for responding too btw. I really appreciate it.


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7buqI9ty7Y Here is the 20 gal tank with the rest of the fish, as you can see the spotted black, grey and orange one is one of the bully's and then the blue and black one is a bully... So depressing... I have fish tanks because they are beautiful and therefore I am happy when I look at them but lately I've had so many fish problems its depressing me... Especially when I look at them and they are all ripped up looking like this.... Need to fix this asap... Hopefully I'm taking the correct actions by dividing the tank up.... I dont know. Or perhaps I need better caves?


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4a4nC1D9WI Here are the 2 I put in the 10 gal to hopefully recover.... Is there room for one more would anyone say or would that just lead to more problems/beatings?


----------



## Jimmyjet92 (Feb 16, 2011)

i think its just because their caves arent big enough for them to swim into or they just feel too crowded when they do swim in there, but i love the tank its really clean i like it, but definatly a bigger tank would help, i went out and got a 200 dollar loan to upgrade from a 20 to a 65. paid it off 3 weeks later. Good Luck


----------



## Jimmyjet92 (Feb 16, 2011)

oh and in that last video what kind is that like goldish and black spotted one? thats a beautiful fish i want to get one !


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Get a 55 at least or trade in the fish. IMO those fish will outgrow a 55 in a few years. Only one fish per tank that size.


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm not sure what kind the spotted one is, how big do african's get? I thought south american's got "BIG"


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

Goldish black in the last video? If your talking about the goldish / blue/ orange fish in the tank with the yellow one he is a german red shoulder. If its the one with the weird bottom chin, i'm not sure, but he's more orange/black/grey.. not sure what that one is called but would like to know...


----------



## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

The primary issue here is inadequate tank size, particularly tank length. I wouldn't recommend keeping lake malawi cichlids in anything less than a 48" tank length (the 65gal holds more water but is only 36").

What this means is: 55gal mininum, 75gal recommended. (Of course there are african cichlids that require larger tanks).

To assist in the problem you may want to relocate (sell, give away, trade) the non-mbuna's which means the peacocks and borleyi (or establish a new hap and peacock tank that's in the 75gal-90gal range). They're typicially not suited long term with mbuna's.

To minimize or control african cichlid (particularly mbuna) aggression, all of he following need to be in place to some extent:

1. Adequate quantity of fish.
2. Properly-ratio'd breeding groups
3. 48"+ of tank length
4. Lots of rocks

*Adequate quantity of fish*
You'll want to have at least a total of 8-10 as a bare mimimum. These are social-aggressive fish and form structured pecking orders and hierarchies. When kept in smaller groups magnify aggression. In a 55gal, I'd recommend 10-15 mbuna's.

*Properly-ratio'd breeding groups*
To further minimize aggression you'll want to construct properly-ratio'd breeding groups. They're polygamous or harem breeders and are well suited to the following gender ratio: 1 male per several females per species. Multiple males of the same species may increase aggression potential. More females of the same species may decrease aggression potential. 

The presence of females will direct a large portion of the male's attention to them and reduce its attention to the other tank mates. Females can be overly harassed by males so that's why multiple females are key. With that said, female mbuna's can be quite aggressive in their own right.

*48"+ of tank length*
48"+ provides these fish adequate space to establish (and remain in) their territories or flee from aggressors. Some species and some fish (as they have their individual personalities and ambitions) are more aggressive than others. 

*Lots of rocks*
Rocks provide the option to be utilized a hiding spots and territories. Mbuna's normally don't hide unless there's a reason. Getting into fights with peers is probably not a great reason for them to hide (as peers view each other as equals or less than equals). However, a sub-dominant fish getting challenged or beaten by a dominant fish is is a reason for them to hide. 

These fish shoould be out in the open with the option to hide when required. 

Size-wise, the mbuna's you have won't outgrow a 55gal (they'll mostly max out between 4" to 6"). Behavior-wise, they may require a larger tank (for example a hyperdominant mbuna can claim a large portion of a 55gal as its exclusive territory).


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

mbuna.. and non mbuna's are you talking about man made fish (hybird's)?? If so how do I tell what one's of my fish are which?!?! Thank you so much for responding!!! I got a little confused with all of your smartness


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

mbuna are the fish from Lake Malawi that live in the rocks. Most of yours are, all the elongate, bright colored fish. The borelyi and are not mbuna and like more open water. They are fish where males build spawning pits in the sand and females swim by in schools. 

I agree with KB, they will kill each other in a short tank and sometimes kill each other in a long tank, but it is less likely.


----------



## Necrophina (Mar 23, 2010)

Ty! I've never heard of mbuma's before and am currently researching them now! But still confused and not sure on which of my fish are which but blah! I'm looking into it at least, I want so badly to have beautiful fish in my tanks. I guess it just depends on how quickly I am able to figure out what I need to in order to tell what's what and do what is needed! 

One thing I do know is that the short blue/black one is in perfect condition, the one with the silly face who is orange/black/grey is in almost perfect condition and everything else in the tank is all ripped to hell, so to me that say's the black/blue needs to be removed because he's the aggressive dominating male. Just by personality alone of that fish I think that would be wise but with what you all are saying Im not sure if that's the correct decision now. LOL


----------



## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

Because the blue/black horizontally striped one (probaby an electric blue johanni) is in perfect condition (i.e., un-damaged), it's likely the current dominant fish (the 'alpha' fish) in the tank (mbuna's of the melanochromis genus often are predisposed to being among the top of the tank's pecking order).

The "one with the silly face who is orange/black/grey" (a probably labeotropheus of some sort) is probably the 'beta' fish (2nd most dominant fish). The remaining fish occupy the lower ladders of the pecking order. 



Necrophina said:


> ...so to me that say's the black/blue needs to be removed because he's the aggressive dominating male. Just by personality alone of that fish I think that would be wise but with what you all are saying Im not sure if that's the correct decision now. LOL


Removal of the 'johanni' won't solve the problem. As mentioned, mbuna's are social-aggressive fish. Removing the most aggressive fish will only create a vacancy while will be filled by the next 'highest ranked' fish. Even if you removed the johanni and the orange/black/grey one; one of the beaten up one's will 'become a bully'. African cichlids in general, and mbuna's in particular, are aggressive fish by nature (when compared to tropical community fish).

The methods I advised will help solve the issue. Adding several johanni females will significantly reduce the aggression it exibits. Rather than act like a bully it will most likely spend much of its time attempting to spawn with the females, which makes life for all the others better. 

In a larger tank, if this is done for each species represented in the tank, you can significantly lower aggression.

Before you acquire females for the johanni (if that's what you decide to do),you must first determine if your 'johanni' is a Melanochromis johanni (common name "Johanni") or a Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos (common name "Electric Blue Johanni). The males of both species are near identical. However the johanni is a dimorphic species (the females are yellowish), while the electric blue johanni is a monomorphic species (both genders blue/black).

Mbuna's are rock dwelling fish ('mbuna' means 'rock fish' in one of the indigenious languages spoken near lake malawi); they're the most aggressive.

The c. borleyi is a 'hap', and as emc described, more of an open water fish. 

The german red shoulder is a type of peacock, a third type of lake malawi cichlid, with habits similar to the borleyi (and are not as aggressive, thus at a disadvantage when kept with mbuna's).


----------

