# Bettas: Black genetic questions



## JBN (Jan 6, 2006)

Hi guys, I'm new here and I have some questions on the genetics of blacks. I'll add some more if I can think of any. My first question is toward this betta from Dong2002:









I email Dong and ask him about the genetic background of this betta. He reply that there is no melano gene, no marble gene, and it does not appear to be copper base either. So, how is it that he can create such a beautiful black color without melano? From what I've read online, melano is consider the deepest black (others disagree and says marble is blacker) but that betta that I just showed you guys do not have any melano. How is this possible? Thanks in advance guys


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

As you can see in the fish's tail, melano and steel blue were used somewhere in the line. 98% of all melano females are infertile. That is why steel blue females that carry the melano gene are normally used. This was as of 3-4 months ago. I haven't spoken with Rich Christman or Jim Sonnier on the topic since then. I also haven't seen any new info in my last cpl of IBC mags. Not to say it isn't possible but I don't think crossing copper would yield this result (copper is only a color derived from cross breeding 2 types of bettas; maybe splendis and smaragdina or more likely imbellis). Jim was working on what he called "double blacks" then and had some success with them but with trying to develop any color, it could take 3-7 years depending on stock and luck. I can say I have never seen any of this guys fish win any IBC shows (not saying he/she hasn't) but I normally look at each show's winners and don't remember that name. That fish in the pic deffinitely has steel in it though. Just look at the webbing in the caudal fin. Hope this helps.


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## JBN (Jan 6, 2006)

I've also heard of the double blacks. I email Jim Sonnier but unfortuantely he never replied. I guess he's busy after his house got wrecked due to the hurricane. Here was part of my email:



> From what I read, if you cross a melano male to a black lace female, the F2 would be double blacks and if you cross a fertile female from the double black F2, then all the offsprings from F3 would be fertile. Is that correct?


Simpte, this is the first time I've heard of the "98% of all melano females are infertile". Almost everyone I've talk to believe that all melano females were infertile. Where did you get this information by the way? I would love to read this up because black is an interesting gene to study, isn't it? . When you were referring to "this guy", were you talking about Dong? He's a Thailand breeder and his site is Dong2002.com. He recently closed his farm due to some employees issues. Thanks again Simpte.


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## Chazwick (Aug 24, 2005)

I DO NOT understand this thread  But that is a charming Betta


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Yes thats who I was referring to (Dong). As far as the black lace/black orchid (same fish type), to melano, that yields double blacks, that is what I gathered from Jim. The reason I state that all melanos are not infertile is there are some who claim to have successfully bred a melano female with fry. There is no conclusive proof that all females are infertile. It is believed that the melano gene does something to the reproductive system of the females but who knows........ The biggest problem with black bettas is the female. In 5 years someone might figure this out or get lucky with a fertile melano female. Again who knows...........For now, its steel blue w melano gene females and melano males.


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## Imbrium (Feb 7, 2005)

You should check out this forum: http://www.bettas4all.nl
Dong is a member there. 
Infact, here is a link to a thread where he talks about the genetics of the fish in your picture, and has a picture of it's father. In that thread he says the black orchid carries the melano gene. http://www.bettas4all.nl/viewtopic.php?t=1845&highlight=dong2002


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

I was correct then. The Black Orchid has steel genetics, hence the blue irridescence in the tail. I started working on that line about 2 years ago but have recently abandoned the project. Too time consuming with a change of jobs.


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## genetics (Mar 21, 2006)

Hi everyone,
This topic is interesting. I guess we Betta enthusiasts at some point or another ask 'How does my Betta look like this and another look like that'. As you know, the answer is genetics. 
It is true that there is no directly related gene for 'black' or 'white' or 'red' bettas. There is however a collection of genes, sometimes over 100 which, in synchronization, attribute to organism color. But what makes one Betta one color while another is a whole different color comes down to mutations in the many genes associated with color expression and the biochemistry associated with such colors.

Overall though, Bettas are beautiful animals. As a geneticist, I am fascinated by their colors and diversity because every betta is so different and unique.
I hope I have been helpful.

Parsa
Ph.D; Cell Biology/Molecular Genetics.


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