# New to CO2 and plants



## Alin10123

Hey guys,
New to the whole plants and CO2 thing. I had previously tried to do plants in my 29 gallon but i pretty much failed every time. Later on i gave up. But recently i've acquired a 55 gallon in which i plan to do plants properly this time to give it another shot. 

I bought a 130 watt PC light from coralife 6700K from big als online. Man.. this thing's bright. I plan to purchase a plant package from a reputable place online. I found this place and i want to get this package.

http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=FAP/PROD/PAP/2GSCHATSD300

I talked with the owner that seemed to be really knowledgeable but he used a lot ot technical terms. So i was kind of lost. The package will come with fertilizers, and i've also got a thing of seachem flourish that he recommended as well. 

I'm going to assume the only thing i'm short is CO2. Do i need CO2 for those plants? I dont need them to grow really fast, i just dont want them to die or at least grow a little bit really slow. Do i still need the CO2? 

I have found an affordable CO2 thing from petsmart here:
http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...1145075338683&itemNo=1&In=Fish&N=2030065&Ne=2

Will that suit my needs for CO2 in my 55 gallon? I dont think i'm getting any particularly difficult to keep plants. 

thanks


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## Ownager2004

Thats probably the biggest diffuser ive ever seen but im sure it works. Thats basically a DIY co2 setup they are selling. If you like to do stuff yourself you should look into making your own CO2 system.


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## Damon

The ladder will not be verry effective for a 55 gallon tank. I would use a limewood diffuser or ceramic one. DIY can be cheap (Its a 2 liter bottle, sugar and yeast). I would save your money and instead of buying that, purchase 2-4 limewood diffusers. Will work better.

Also while that pkg isn't bad, I'd go with this one as all those swords will eventually fill up your tank. Amazon swords can fill 3/4 of a 55 gallon when fully grown.

http://www.aquabotanic.com/abstore/contents/en-us/d2.html
Either the hard to kill pkg or the starter kit will work. More plants with the starter kit but easier ones in the first pkg.


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> The ladder will not be verry effective for a 55 gallon tank. I would use a limewood diffuser or ceramic one. DIY can be cheap (Its a 2 liter bottle, sugar and yeast). I would save your money and instead of buying that, purchase 2-4 limewood diffusers. Will work better.
> 
> Also while that pkg isn't bad, I'd go with this one as all those swords will eventually fill up your tank. Amazon swords can fill 3/4 of a 55 gallon when fully grown.
> 
> http://www.aquabotanic.com/abstore/contents/en-us/d2.html
> Either the hard to kill pkg or the starter kit will work. More plants with the starter kit but easier ones in the first pkg.


Is the limewood diffuser basically working like an airstone? How come 2-4? Do i need to connect all of them at one time to the CO2 from the soda bottle? How do i make sure the CO2 flow is consistant and there's not a huge PH drop or increase every week or so when i need to redo the mixture? Can i purchase an airline valve and adjust it as needed? Or is this not recommended? 

Also... i've read that CO2 will lower your PH. My Alkalinity is kind of low when i test my water. It'll usually read in the 0-40 range or somewhere in between there when i do a water test. My water is also very soft and the PH is usually 6.2-6.8 when it comes out of the tap normally. WIll i be ok with the CO2 with that low alkalinity? 

I think my fish like the water PH at around 6.8 dont they? So if i add CO2... wont the PH drop? 

thanks


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## Alin10123

One more thing, with regards to the starter plant package. It says that the water requirements are moderately hard to hard. If i have soft water, will this do? I plan on adding seachem flourish to the water every week for fertilizer. 

Also... one last thing... i found a DIY site for the CO2 producer.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/DIY_CO2.html

There is a thing in there about also adding 1tsp baking soda to the mixture if your water is soft? What does that do? Does that prevent the PH from fluctuating? 

thanks


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## Alin10123

oops......


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## Damon

You purchase 2-4 because they will clog and you can put a spare one on while your cleaning the clogged one (once every 3-6 months). They normally come 2 per pkg. DIY Co2 will not affect you PH much in a tank that size (maybe .2 -.4 swing). The plants themselves will do just fine in soft water. I've grown them all in soft water. What type of fish are in the tank?


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## goodie

> There is a thing in there about also adding 1tsp baking soda to the mixture if your water is soft? What does that do? Does that prevent the PH from fluctuating?


When the yeast/sugar mixture is firmenting it creates alcohol and the co2 will make the mixture(in 2 liter bottle) more acidic which can kill the yeast and slow co2 production.

If thats how I remember it. I maybe off a bit, but generally speaking thats pretty much the reason for it.


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## Damon

Pretty close goodie. The yeast feeds off the sugar creating OH. Co2 is just a by-product. The problem arrises when too much OH is produced which is toxic to yeast (different yeast have different levels of toxicity). Better quality yeast last longer (beer or wine yeast). Using Baking soda will slow down the fermentation process creating less per unit of time but lasting longer.


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> What type of fish are in the tank?


The type of fish in the tank are in my signature for the 55 gallon. 
I plan to add a few pearl gouramis and a bristle nose pleco.


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> Pretty close goodie. The yeast feeds off the sugar creating OH. Co2 is just a by-product. The problem arrises when too much OH is produced which is toxic to yeast (different yeast have different levels of toxicity). Better quality yeast last longer (beer or wine yeast). Using Baking soda will slow down the fermentation process creating less per unit of time but lasting longer.


I see... so it's safe to say that i should add 1 tsp of baking soda in my mixture since i have soft water? 

Also... Is beer or wine yeast more expensive? Can i find it just in the grocery store? 



Simpte said:


> You purchase 2-4 because they will clog and you can put a spare one on while your cleaning the clogged one (once every 3-6 months). They normally come 2 per pkg. DIY Co2 will not affect you PH much in a tank that size (maybe .2 -.4 swing). The plants themselves will do just fine in soft water. I've grown them all in soft water. What type of fish are in the tank?


I see... hmm.. can i just run the line near the intake of my magnum canister filter and let that suck it up? That should work right? 

On a more random note... i keep reading about CO2 proof lines? Are silicone lines ok? Or do i need more specialty lines? Can i order those online? 

Also... After reading a few horror stories about lines being clogged and water getting into the reactor, i'd like to put in 2 types of valves, one being a backflow valve near the top and a T valve with a pressure relief valve in case the end becomes clogged. 

Do you guys think that those are neccessary? I plan on using a thicker juice type bottle than a regular soda bottle. 

thanks


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## Damon

I'll try to answer these in the order you asked them.............
1. Adding it won't hurt but cannot be sure if it will help or not. Depends on your mixture.

2. Yes beer and wine yeast are slightly more expensive. You cannot usually find these in a grocery store.

3. That is a great way to diffuse Co2. The smaller the bubbles going into the filter's impeller, the less noise and more efficient.

4. Silicone will work and is better than standard airline tubing (doesn't waste as much Co2, but it will harden over time and will have to be replaced. Co2 proof tubing is expensive but saves over the long run. Norprine or tygon tubing are 2 brands of CO2 proof tubing. Regular airline tubing can waste as much as 40% of the co2 going through it. Silicone is somewhere like 10-20%


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## goodie

Simpte said:


> Pretty close goodie. The yeast feeds off the sugar creating OH. Co2 is just a by-product. The problem arrises when too much OH is produced which is toxic to yeast (different yeast have different levels of toxicity). Better quality yeast last longer (beer or wine yeast). Using Baking soda will slow down the fermentation process creating less per unit of time but lasting longer.



You da man!!


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## Damon

Glad we could help


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> I'll try to answer these in the order you asked them.............
> 1. Adding it won't hurt but cannot be sure if it will help or not. Depends on your mixture.
> 
> 2. Yes beer and wine yeast are slightly more expensive. You cannot usually find these in a grocery store.
> 
> 3. That is a great way to diffuse Co2. The smaller the bubbles going into the filter's impeller, the less noise and more efficient.
> 
> 4. Silicone will work and is better than standard airline tubing (doesn't waste as much Co2, but it will harden over time and will have to be replaced. Co2 proof tubing is expensive but saves over the long run. Norprine or tygon tubing are 2 brands of CO2 proof tubing. Regular airline tubing can waste as much as 40% of the co2 going through it. Silicone is somewhere like 10-20%


thanks,
Anyplace where i can purchase the one way valve (to prevent water in the bottle), the T splitter, and the pressure relief valve (to prevent bottle explosions) that's compatible with CO2 online?


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## Damon

There are places you can order CO2 specific equipment but I use regular check valves (they're cheap enough), pennplax makes a little case of spare parts (all you need but the check valve). They are available at any local fish store.


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## Alin10123

K, thanks for your help guys. I went ahead and ordered the starter package and it should be here by tomorrow. Although... one last quick thing though, i've got all parts of my DIY CO2 system ready for when the plants get here tomorrow. But i'm having trouble finding a place that sells the transparent CO2 tubing. The only place i've found it online wants $11 for shipping a tube that weight maybe 2 ounces. I've tried the LFS as well. None of the ones around me in Atlanta have the CO2 tubing. 

Any place online with reasonable shipping rates? 

thanks


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## Damon

Just use Silicone tubing until you make another order to save on shipping. No sense buying just the tubing for the prices they want for shipping.


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> Just use Silicone tubing until you make another order to save on shipping. No sense buying just the tubing for the prices they want for shipping.


hehe, thanks for the advice.
Actually, i figured that i might need a bigger net and some stuff to prune the plants with. So i went ahead and got those supplies and i found a place with $6.99 shipping.

By the way... how do you prune the plants? I know the fine leaf ones you just cut them on the stem. But what about hte broad leaf ones? The ones with a stem and then a huge leaf at the top? Where do you cut those?


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## Damon

I cut as close to the base as possible.


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## Guest

I've been told that DIY CO2 is really only affective for tanks up to 30g. After that it is better to get a pressurized system. It may help to keep algae down, but I don't think it will greatly improve plant growth, like a pressurized system would.
The only way the DIY would be anywhere close to pressurized is if you had like 4 bottles going...and that's alot of work.

I'm glad you are going with the DIY instead of the Hagen system though. It is only good for tanks up to 20g. Starting out with DIY is good, but I would upgrade to a pressurized system eventually, to get better results.

That Amazon sword might outgrow your tank. They get huge. Also, corkscrew vals didn't do well in my 55g with the same light. I hope you have better luck!


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> I cut as close to the base as possible.


Well... for example if you have a plant that sprouts broad leaves. There are 5 stems and at the tops of each stem there's a huge leaf. You mean you cut as low as possible to the base of the plant? If that's the case... if the plant has gotten too tall... if you cut all 5 of the stems as close to the base as possible, there wont be a plant left.  .

On another note, my plants are here today. yay!


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## Ownager2004

If all of them all look too tall to you then the plant probably doesn't belong in your aquascape. Its not really going to grow any shorter...


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## Damon

Correct. The plant may not be suitable for your tank. Most swords get to large for the everyday tank (under 55 gallons).


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> Correct. The plant may not be suitable for your tank. Most swords get to large for the everyday tank (under 55 gallons).


Nah, there isn't any plant that's that tall yet that it grows taller then my tank. It's just i was curious about what happens when a broad leaf plant gets near the top. That will be hard to trim. I"ll see when the time comes. Maybe they wont even get that tall.


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## xerxeswasachump

I was considering getting a similar kind of kit for my 55 gallon. I have about 1.5 WPG and i wasn't planning on using CO2 unless i absolutely had to. 
Is the CO2 necessary for the Delux Decorator Kit #2 from http://www.aquariumdriftwood.com/packages.htm
I really don't know how to gauge whether or not CO2 is necessary since i have never used it.


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## Alin10123

Well... it was something i pondered on for a while. In the end i decided to get it. I dont really have substrate for plants though but since plants usually get resources from the water first, i figured it wasn't a huge deal. But then i've got 130 watts of lighting in my 55 as well. 

I'm sure the plants you've selected would survive without C02, but if you want them to flourish or even grow a little bit, you need CO2.


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## Damon

Not necessary, but would be beneficial. You could dose excel instead with your lighting.


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## xerxeswasachump

Simpte said:


> Not necessary, but would be beneficial. You could dose excel instead with your lighting.


Good to know. I already have excel and could easily dose that tank with it regularly. I am really worried about my lighting situation. Unfortunately, what i have is pretty much my only option, unless i want to make my own hood. I like the idea of having two 10 gallon hoods set up next to each other. What sucks is that those lights are only 15 watts. Is there any way to put a higher wattage bulb in a fluorescent ballast?
Right now i have an Aqua-Glo 15W in each hood.


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## Alin10123

Ok, finally got the CO2 tubing. Today i went to work mixing up my concoction. I mixed the warm water, the dry active yeast, and sugar. Just a quick question, can i use pure cane sugar? I was under the assumption that sugar is grown on canes anyways so i dont think that should be a problem. 

I figured as long as the yeast can feed off of the sugar.

Any comments? It's been setup for a few hours now but i dont feel any activity.


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## violet

How does the CO2 get wasted in normal economy tubing and silicone? Can it somehow pass through them? Is it absorbed into them? Very mysterious.

violet


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## Alin10123

violet said:


> How does the CO2 get wasted in normal economy tubing and silicone? Can it somehow pass through them? Is it absorbed into them? Very mysterious.
> 
> violet


yes, the regular tubing is more permeable than the CO2 proof tubing so a large % is lost without the CO2 tubing.


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## Ownager2004

dont know how to quote....
question.
How does the CO2 get wasted in normal economy tubing and silicone? Can it somehow pass through them? Is it absorbed into them? Very mysterious.

Normal airline tubing becomes brittle under the conditions the CO2 creates. This can cause microfractures which lead to even more CO2 leaching. But silicone tubing is supposed to be better and ive heard you only lose around 10% of your CO2, which in a small tank is acceptable IMO.

Also, CO2 is benificial to almost any aquarium with lighting. People can and do have nice planted tanks without it, but it is harder(from what ive read.)


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## Damon

Not necessarily harder, provided you plan accordingly. Using plants that are CO2 depandant (more than others I should say) will not encourage growth but, in fact, cause death. Dead plants attract algae. Growing, thriving plants, keep algae at bay. Simple concept. Simple concept; plants win and algae loses.


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## violet

Interesting, thank you. I use silicone. I had thought CO2 tubing was purely to avoid the hardening/deterioration caused by the CO2 long term. Learn something new every day.

How about that tubing used for ice makers? I use it for my RO/DI and really long straight runs of plain old airline. I have to use several turns of teflon plumbers tape to make the OD of common air fittings big enough but that's a minor inconvenience. 

violet

ps I like it here


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## Alin10123

Ok... update... got the CO2 generator up and going. There's only one last problem. I tried to feed the CO2 into the intake of my canister filter but the bubbles all seemed to want to bubble straight up even when i put the intake right there. So what i did was i cut a bottle out in the mid section. I flipped it upside down, put some sand at the bottom and i'm running my CO2 outlet into that. 

The only thing is, i can't get the diffuser to stay towards the bottom of the tank. When the CO2 builds up at the top, it will have like a balloon effect and it will pull to the top of the tank. It still stands right side up, but just it wants to float. 

Is that ok? Or is it better to have the diffuser towards the bottom of the tank?


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## Ownager2004

Try something that will make smaller bubbles. That will make it easier for your intake to suck them in.


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## Alin10123

Ok... i decided to stick with my bottle diffuser idea which seems to be working fairly well. Before i started using CO2 today my PH was at about 6.8
After adding the CO2 for the afternoon the PH dropped to somewhere between 6.2-6.8 but just a tad towards the 6.2 color on my test strip. So i'd say maybe the PH was somewhere at about 6.4 or something like that. 6.4 seems ok for my fish and i'm sure when my plants start producing oxygen, the ph will level back out again. My one conern is what happens when i turn out the lights? I know ph normally drops when the lights are out anyways. So this sort of concerns me. I dont want the PH to drop too low since the fish might suffer from it. My alkalinity according to my jungle labs test kit is at about 0 right now. It's always been 0 although the PH has always been stable since before i started with CO2. The GH is at about 75 ppm according to my test kit. On my kit 75ppm is considered "soft". I keep hearing that softwater will dip in PH really easily so this has me a tad worried. 

Is there anything to worry about? Is it safe to turn out the lights?


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## Damon

DIY Co2 will not harm your fish overnight. It just doesn't produce enough for poisoning.


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> DIY Co2 will not harm your fish overnight. It just doesn't produce enough for poisoning.


ok, thanks
Yea, i was really relieved when i turned on the lights in the morning. Not really worried about the CO2 poisoning. What i was worried about was the dip in PH. But it looks ok and all of the fish seem to be doing ok too. 

Is DIY CO2 enough CO2 to be able to see oxygen bubbles coming out of the plants? I dont see any yet.


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## Ownager2004

I get a pretty steady stream out of mine. But then again im only doing a 10 gallon.


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## Alin10123

Ownager2004 said:


> I get a pretty steady stream out of mine. But then again im only doing a 10 gallon.


Yea, i've got a bubble every few seconds coming out of mine now. I just dont see any of the oxygen bubbles coming off of the leaves of the plants like you see in some pics.


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## Damon

You may never see pearling (thats what you are describing). Some plants dont pearl. Some do. Just remember a constant co2 saturation is more important than a fluctuating one. 15ppm all the time is better than 30ppm for 3 days and 17 ppm for a week and 11 ppm for another. Plants dont have to pearl to be healthy and thriving. Pearling is just a saturation point. Thats all. If you really want to see it, do a waterchange.


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## Alin10123

Simpte said:


> You may never see pearling (thats what you are describing). Some plants dont pearl. Some do. Just remember a constant co2 saturation is more important than a fluctuating one. 15ppm all the time is better than 30ppm for 3 days and 17 ppm for a week and 11 ppm for another. Plants dont have to pearl to be healthy and thriving. Pearling is just a saturation point. Thats all. If you really want to see it, do a waterchange.


hehe,... actually... i was glancing over at the tank last night and i noticed there was a few smaller bubbles going up from towards the bottom of the tank. After closer inspection it was "pearling!". I was so siked! It wasn't like a wall of bubbles, but it was a pretty cool thing to see plants actually releasing oxygen!


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## azn1stknightsou

Question: Do you guys leave your CO2 system on 24 hours a day? If you dont, how many hours a day do you leave it on?


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## Alin10123

azn1stknightsou said:


> Question: Do you guys leave your CO2 system on 24 hours a day? If you dont, how many hours a day do you leave it on?


24 hours. Depends on ur configuration. Some people turn it off, others leave it on 24 hours. You need to measure your PH to make sure it's within limits.


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## rcomeau

I went through a few batches of DIY yeast CO2. It took weeks to change CO2 from 3 to 7.6 with PH changing from 7.6 to 7.2 and KH at 4. Also, there are many different ways to effectively get the CO2 into the water rather than just bubbling up and out of it. Some people use PH monitors to avoid adding CO2 unless necessary and they only added during the day when plants use it while growing. What I don't get is how they are able to get CO2 into the water so effectively that it makes a difference enough to turn it off at night. Are the tank systems that much more effective? If so, why are they more effective when they still bubble in the CO2 slowly?


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