# Questions on cycling and fish



## papermaker.sc (Mar 11, 2014)

So I have some questions, one major though. 
Bank ground story, feel free to skip: My boyfriend and I have a 37 gallon tank, right now it is going threw a major ammonia spike (had the tank for over a month) started the ammonia block when it hit approximately 1.5, continued to test the other parameters, (the ammo block says test for ammonia on 7th day and if it doesn't change do a water change) the pH went down so we add pH up. We could not get the pH to go up. We wake up on the 7th and we have several fish dead! Check the ammonia and it got much higher, (like around 4) we go to our local pet store, they recommend the ammo chips, so we get home do a 35% water change, set up the ammo chips and we continue to lose fish (we mostly had guppies, and we was almost certainly not over stocked, though we were told the common 1inch per 1 gallon, I know better now after even much further research, and we have done a lot) After a couple days the ammonia is at 8! We move the fish into a tiny hospital tank we had and did a 50% water change and used a new battery powered have cleaner that can pump out water or just catch debris threw a mesh bag and the water filters back in. So I cleaned up a lot of stuff in the gravel for like an hour. Fill the tank back up (we used prime and stress coat in the new water before pouring it in) Water is fairly cloudy now. We put the fish back in, and after a couple days we loose 2 more fish, and the ammonia is off the chart. That's it we get a 10 gallon tank, set it up put the remainder fish in it, do another water change to the 39 and leave it, we will put the fish back in it when it's okay. And do a 50% everyday (We have a filter meant for a 40 gallon in our 37 gallon but we have a bigger better filter coming in the mail to add with the pre-existing filter because our tank is taller rather than longer which we read proper filtration for our type of tank can be a problem) So my boyfriend was caught looking at the Mollys when he was buying a refill of something (I wasn't there) and he told the story and the owner said we need fish in our tank so the cycle continues and Mollys are hardy fish, buy just a couple to put in there to make sure the cycle won't stop. So my question is...

If our ammonia level is still very high and the water is still fairly cloudy is keeping a couple fish really needed to keep the cycle going? I feel guilty subjecting fish to such high levels, and hard to trust that the owner isn't just trying to sell fish, or just doesn't know, because some things she seems to know and others she doesn't.

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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Use either the Prime or the Stress Coat. You don't need both. I prefer the Prime as well as the Seachem product line. 

The water changes help but it slows down the cycling. Doing small water changes is ok, like the 10% range. I found that using to filters in bigger tanks is better than one. Use one filter as a biological filter and the other as a debris filter. Clean that filter more often. You want filters to have a GPH rate of about 3 times to size of the tank. Easy figure...40g use a 120gph at minimum. 

Keeping the fish load light with still cycle the tank. Turning white sometimes occurs, sometimes it doesn't. I tried something for the first time. I added a Bacteria Supplement to one of my new tanks it help it along. 

I know its hard but be patience and let the aquarium do its thing.


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## papermaker.sc (Mar 11, 2014)

Thank you, that was very helpful, should prime be used everyday to keep the ammonia non toxic or does it have to be in order for the good bacteria to kick in?

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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

If you have amonia over 4 you kill the beneficial bacteria in the filter. Seeing how you said your amonia went "of the charts" and hit 8 I would say you will need to start over most likely. 

What I would do.
I would empty the whole tank. Clean all the gravel thoroughly (you need to find the source of amonia). I know this kills any bacteria that is left (assuming there is any) but I think getting rid of the amonia source is a must. Clean your filter too. Depending on how many days your amonia has been at 8 (I'm surprised any of the fish survived, are you sure it was eight?) I would just toss the old media and start over, if there is no bb left there is no point in keeping the old media. 

Don't put any fish in there right now, you would just kill them. You need to get the amonia down first before you start adding fish again.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok..i am going to disrupt everything and throw in my 2 cents worth here....ok , maybe more than 2 cents worth.


1. throw out all of the chemicals that might alter the water parameters...(kinda like starting over from scratch.)
almost no need for any chemicals except to dechlorinate tap water and to treat diseases..

2.put the test kits on the shelf and pay them no mind for awhile..

3.keep the fish population on the lighter side for awhile and feed normally...

4. maintain proper temps and do weekly 30% water changes..

5. pay attention to the fish and see how they are doing on a regular basis..

6. after about 6 or 8 weeks of this test the water for Ammonia , Nitrites and Nitrates...

often tanks will get cloudy..that is usually a bacteria bloom and will go away on it's own in awhile..just don't mess with it..


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## papermaker.sc (Mar 11, 2014)

No offense towards anyone, but who's advice should I follow? I'm getting multiple different answers. The filter I have now has two different things, the "bio" part the part we can get replacements for. (sorry I'm at work so I don't have the accurate names for these things nor can I test what kind of condition it is in) though I believe my boyfriend has rinsed off the part that is supposed to mainly get debris. And I don't know if this will change your answers but what I currently have for fish is:
37 gal: 3 Molly
Temp 10 gal: 3 Angels, one Cory, and 6 golden tetra I believe they are called (maybe half an inch to an inch long, and gold)

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## papermaker.sc (Mar 11, 2014)

Also, keeping the tanks at 76.5F, pH 6.8-7, Nitr-ite/ate 0, and the water does test lower than .25 for ammonia. 

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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

well ; i just threw in my 2 cents worth..in reality , you don't have to do what anybody tells you..maybe just go with whatever you are most comfortable with doing...
my list above is just how i would do it..you have several options open to you..
the very best of luck to you in getting any issues straightened out.sometimes they can seem a bit overwhelming.


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## papermaker.sc (Mar 11, 2014)

It is, and thank you loha, and everyone for the input and support

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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

oh I thought your amonia was still at 8. Beeing at 0.25 is a lot better, still harmfull to the fish, but a lot better. I agree with loha, all those chemicals probably gave you those wacky readings.


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## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Everyone's comments are their own. None are right and none are wrong. Its what has worked for them. 

Ammonia at 0.25 is very low. It will rise slowly until there is enough bacteria to take care of it. It will get into the 7.0 range before it starts to drop. When it drops it will go from high to nothing in a short time. 

I wouldn't worry about the nitrates and nitrites at this point. When I was cycling the last tank I tested for ammonia about every 5 days. 

Be patience and let it cycle.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

papermaker.sc said:


> No offense towards anyone, but who's advice should I follow?


personally I would take more notice of loha....
dump your ph crap in the bin and any other water adjustment chems in there too, keep it as natural as you can or you will be constantly adjusting everything wanting a chem to counteract the last bit of crap you put in there, all you need is a good DE chlorinator for your water you are adding.
as for your ammonia spike, if the tanks one month old im not surprised... its still cycling, use seachem stability to help you with bacteria, I like Elliot love seachem products, they do exactly what they claim and are worth paying the little extra compared to other products, they give great value for your money when you look into how much you need to use compared to others.


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## papermaker.sc (Mar 11, 2014)

@bettaguy: at this pony I don't know what the ammonia level is in my 37 gallon but less than .25 is what my tap water tests as.

@Elliott: good advise, it's heard to be patient because I don't want to lose anymore fish and I feel so guilty when they die because they are so small and so dependent but I will try

@weedkiller: I'll have to check at my local pet store but I don't think they have seachem products but I will see what I can find online. I would imagine Amazon would have some.

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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

I would listen to loha's advice as well.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

loha.. you better find a way to shrink that head of yours... you need to go shopping soon, the doorways gonna be too small


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Loha has been at this since the 1960's. He kinda has a clue. Just saying.
That said, there is one newfangled method that works mighty fine...


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Nowadays it is finally possible to put Nitrospira bacteria in a bottle and have it survive. We've been using the wrong stuff for decades simply because it would live in a bottle.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Today, though, we can put Nitrospira directly into the tank in useful numbers, cycling the tank in a just a few days.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, actually, we can bypass the "cycle" part of cycling completely, and just fast-forward to the end result of a fully populated bacteria bed.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

There are a few good brands like Seachem's "Stability" or Tetra's "SafeStart." Lots of JUNK out there, too. You want Nitrospira only, not the old Nitrosomanas/Nitrobacter formulas.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

weedkiller...it is better than having a shrunken head....lol..
you know TOS..i bought a gallon jug of bacteria from my old wholesaler but never looked to actually see what was in it...maybe i can finally throw it out....


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The old stuff does work...eventually... but really, it can't compare to the new.


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## kcrunch (Aug 17, 2012)

I was like you as well and used test kits and chems at the start. BTT I thought I was ready both were driving me nuts. I listened to Loha and my bud and have had the greatest success. Even better than back when I had my 500g shark tank in my parents house many moons ago. This is a good site with good folk and even better advice


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