# pH Will not Go Down!!



## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

Hi!

I have a 20-long with six fish each about an inch long - platy, swordtail, danio (lost the other five to fish TB), two angelfish, and a female guppy. 

The pH has been high, like 7.8, and the alkalinity is off the test strip scale. Our water softener is terrible, it has zero hardness and high pH, and our outdoor water is hard, high pH, and spring water from the store is about the same. 

pH Down won't work, I can't find peat moss. 

Please help me!

~Humdedum


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

*PH for your fish*
Platy: 6.8 - 8.0
Swordtail: 6.8 - 7.8
Danios: 6.0 - 8.0
Angelfish: 5.0 - 7.2
Guppies: 7.0 - 8.5

So your PH is fine for all except the Angels. From what I understand, dramatically changing the PH can kill the Angelfish, and the other fish probably won't like it much either.

Also PH Down will not work unless you purify your water. Use a product like API Tap Water Purifier to remove the stuff that makes your PH high. After that is used PH Down will work better.

Hope that helps


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

We only have a water softener.  And the person at PETCO won't give us warrantee on guppies because she said the pH is too high.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

That is stupid. I have heard of people keeping some tropical fish in a PH of 9+. The pet store just doesn't want to give you your money.

Get one of the purifiers to get rid of the metals and calcium in your water. 

Also, if your water is that hard, it doesn't look like your water softener is working :lol:


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Actually the hardness of the water is what you need to focus on. If you have hard water there is no way to lower the PH. Period. I agree with bml. It sounds like your softener is not working. The serious hobbyist that specialize the soft water cichlids usually have a reverse osmosis unit.


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

No, it is soft. We are using outdoor water in attempts for lower pH, and spring water is also hard. |:< Grrrrr.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Wait....
Are you saying that the rain water (I assume this is what you mean by "outside") is hard? Why not use the tap water if the water you are using is hard?

Choose the water that has the safest levels for your fish, then try to modify it.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Well.. lets cover the important questions first. 

What kind of substrate are you using. epoxy coated gravel? coral sand? unepoxied gravel?

What kind of decorations do you have? epoxy coated? rocks (EC or un EC'd) what type? Do you have driftwood?

Do you have plants?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

PETCO is stupid, guppies love hard, high pH water. The just want to sell you more additives. You could look at wal-mart in the garden section for peat-pellets and put one in your filter. But bml is right, most of your fish like your water and the angels (if not wild-caught) will deal with it. Stop stressing the fish out by making the pH bounce around and just keep the water clean. Spend you time on regular water changes and your money on good quality food and forget messing with the water chemistry.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Acclimation is key, if you acclimate right, then you can keep pretty much any fish, rapid changes in ph will kill fish faster than a high ph.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Tall one, I agree with that only to a point. To start with hardness is what's important. Not PH. Some fish can tolerate wide ranges of water conditions but that doesn't mean they wouldn't do better if it were proper. The blue ram (cichlid) comes to mind because it has been discussed recently on this forum. It really needs soft water...it will not do as well in hard. 
You are correct however that a stable enviroment is paramount.


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

bmlbytes said:


> Wait....
> Are you saying that the rain water (I assume this is what you mean by "outside") is hard? Why not use the tap water if the water you are using is hard?
> .


OUTSIDE WATER = Hose water, water from my area
TAP/INDOOR/SOFTENER WATER = Water from my water softener, which feeds into all our indoor taps
RAINWATER = Water we collected when it rained




Toshogu said:


> Well.. lets cover the important questions first.
> 
> What kind of substrate are you using. epoxy coated gravel? coral sand? unepoxied gravel?
> 
> ...


Gravel substrate. Had a driftwood, but it seemed to cloudy up our water, so we took it out, and then we cut a piece of it and have put it in. So far OK. 

We have 2 Amazon sword plants. (Sorry, we bought them when I was like 6, so I have no idea about it much!)




ron v said:


> Tall one, I agree with that only to a point. To start with hardness is what's important. Not PH. Some fish can tolerate wide ranges of water conditions but that doesn't mean they wouldn't do better if it were proper. The blue ram (cichlid) comes to mind because it has been discussed recently on this forum. It really needs soft water...it will not do as well in hard.
> You are correct however that a stable enviroment is paramount.


It's stable all right, but PETCO won't give is our warrantees! :argue:


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Yeah Ron your right, I meant more it is key for him but there are certain fish, most of yours should be ok if you stick to what you have, that even with proper acclimation, won't live very long in your tank. 
Do you have any limestone in your water?
PETCO is the worst pet chain I have ever seen, I wouldn't care if they give you a warrenty because the only reason they give such a nice warranty is because their fish DIE, and they will find any way to get out of it. 
Can you give us the actual ph of your water you use? all of your explanations don't really make sense to me. WHat happens if you bypass your water softener?


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## TBS_Dave (Oct 6, 2008)

Here is what you do, ignore the pH, hardness, alkalinity and do like was suggested earlier, keep the water clean and the fish fed. They will all do fine in that water. Yes, even the angels. If the Petco is telling you they won't guarantee the fish because of the high pH, ask them to test the pH in their tanks for you. My guess is it will be the same as yours. Like bml said, they don't want to give you your money back and like emc said, they want you to spend more money too.


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

Tallonebball said:


> WHat happens if you bypass your water softener?


The water is very hard, and also has "high" pH.



Tallone said:


> Can you give us the actual ph of your water you use?


We ran out of test strips, so we have to go to the store.. need strips. 
~~~

EDIT: Actually, I think it was more in the 7.5 range, so it must be something in the tank doing this?


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Hum, to clarify for us what is going on, can you just fill out this form for us?

*Tap Water*
Hardness: 
PH: 

*Hose Water*
Hardness:
PH:

*Rain Water* (if applicable)
Hardness:
PH:

Which one of these are you using in your tank?:

*Fish Tank:*
Hardness:
PH:
Desired PH:

What type of substrate: _Gravel_ 
What else is in the tank? (decorations, drift wood, plants, etc):
What chemicals have you tried to use to buffer your PH?:

I think that if you answer those questions, no one will be confused and we can help you.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

You have 0 hardness from your water softener..right? And you have water with high hardness from tap. You have everything you need. What do you want your water to be? Maybe we can figure out how to get there!


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Do you have any seashells in your tank? or foreign rocks? It could be quite possible you have something in your tank thats leeching and bringing your ph way up


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

Hum, to clarify for us what is going on, can you just fill out this form for us?

*Tap Water*
Hardness: No properties at all. 
PH: 7.8-9-ish?

*Hose Water*
Hardness: Very hard. (Sorry, that's all the strips say)
PH: ((I'm buying some strips of my own to test everything.))

*Rain Water* (if applicable)
Hardness: Very low
PH: 6.4-ish

*Which one of these are you using in your tank?:* I used to use Tap water, but it had no properties except very high pH and alkalinity. So we tried spring water, and the hardness went medium and the pH stayed the same. Then we've been trying half tap/hose, and the pH is STILL high, even the though the hardness is bad. Then we got some rainwater, and I used my last strip to see that was low in alkalinity and pH. :fun: So I did a half hose/half Rain, and we're going to see what it's like. 

*Fish Tank:*
Hardness: Middle
PH: 7.8
Desired PH: 7  well, 7.4 would be a comfort at least

What type of substrate: _Gravel_ 
What else is in the tank? (decorations, drift wood, plants, etc): We had a driftwood in there, but it seemed to make things cloudy. One thing that had really fouled up the tank was a dead danio body that we couldn't find. Of course, we found it later, and the tank is now clear. We can't decide if it was the driftwood or the danio. 
So, recently, we cut a little hunk of the driftwood and stuck it in. Nothing drastic has happened yet. 

What chemicals have you tried to use to buffer your PH?: pH Down. 40 drops (for a 20 gallon). Did it twice. Did nothing. Because alkalinity is too high, I think. Alkalinity is off the scale.


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

emc7 said:


> Stop stressing the fish out by making the pH bounce around and just keep the water clean.


But.... the problem is... pH ISN'T going down. :x


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

pH down will never work. Something like "acid regulator" or 'acid buffer' will get the pH down and make your tank look like a snow globe as it precipitates all that hardness out. If its a small tank, diluting tap with rainwater will be your cheapest solution. But again, I don't mess with pH if the fish are doing well. 8.5 is and off the scale hardness is fine if you fish are thriving. There is nothing magical about 7.0. Ignore PetCo and look into fish from Lake Tanganyika.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Hum, my suggestion (if you can do this) would be to mix the rainwater and the tap water. Stop using the outside hose, its not helping you at all. For the next few water changes use that combination of rain and tap. Stop using the chemicals if possible. There is a point at which you will overcome the hardness, and the PH will drop, but when it does it will drop dramatically and probably kill the fish. If you do feel the need to use chemicals, use something like PH 7.0 or Neutral Regulator. It will keep it at 7.0 and you wont go lower than that.

Driftwood will usually dye your water a slight tea color, but it shouldn't make it cloudy. The cloudyness probably came from a mini cycle from the dead fish decomposing and putting a lot of ammonia into the tank.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The usual difference between water that goes through a water softener and water that doesn't is that some of the carbonate ions are replaced by chloride ions. Thats why you feed you water softener blocks of salt and its heavy, full of carbonate when you replace it.


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## humdedum (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, I think we're going to try hose/rain, which is hard/high and low/low... to HOPEFULLY create medium/medium....


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

My ph is very high and we have superhard water.The reading is about 190.
Ph is 8.2. I do not worry about it. I have plants and mopani wood in all my tanks. The wood does not make the water cloudy- only brownish. I have platies and guppies that 'like' hard ,high ph water. I have 2 angel fish that are doing fine. I have an assortment of south american tetras and corydoras that are doing fine.
The guppies and platies breed really well. My black skirt tetras are all over 6 years old. By the book they should not have survived. They spawn regulaly but eat their eggs.
My neighbor has a 10 year old angel fish that lives in the same type of water. high ph, high hardness.
Why on earth do you want to fool around and change yours?
Are you going to try to breed south americans?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

hum......is there a garden center near you?..go there and get some "jiffy-7" peat pellets.. make sure that they are not treated with a fertilizer of anything...
then go to the dollar store and get a couple of pairs of knee high nylons...
take the netting off of the pellets..put 2 or 3 of them in one of the knee highs and tie off the end...put it in warm water for a few minutes..squeeze it out a couple of times so it will absorb water easily.....place it in the box of a HOB filter and let it run..

personally ; i think your test strips are whacked..get a decent test kit that uses liquid reagents...they are considerably more accurate..and get a jug of distilled water to clean the tubes and stuff...
if you are using water from the softener and you have fish and driftwood in the tank ; your PH go go down quite a bit.


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## pxexaxcxex (Jul 28, 2009)

Like Mousey I have a high ph and all my fish seem to be doing just fine. I use my tap water which is hard.


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## M.shafquat (Sep 6, 2009)

humdedum said:


> Hi!
> 
> I have a 20-long with six fish each about an inch long - platy, swordtail, danio (lost the other five to fish TB), two angelfish, and a female guppy.
> 
> ...



Do you have stone kind gravel in tank?
high ph because you have a stone kind gravel in tank.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok..i will do this again...............................forget testing..forget PH...GH...DH...and all that other crap...
leave the tank alone for 5 days....except for feeding......do not test..do not move anything around...do not do anything except feed...in other words...keep your mitts out of the tank..
after 5 days.............................................................
pull up a chair....watch your tank...pay attention to the fish..what are they doing?..gasping for air?....laying on the bottom?...is everybody dying?...what???.....
or are they just swimming around like normal.
like emc said..quit stressin your fish..

i don't understand why you are unable to find peat.....don't you folks have gardens up there?..try your local garden center..ask for "jiffy-7" peat pellets..if they don't have them;ask for milled peat moss..jiust make sure it has no ferts or other chemicals in it..
good luck and...just try not to make mountains out of mole hills....


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