# Want a small marine tank? It's your money!



## Reefneck

All of a sudden there is a rash of people rushing to start their first marine tank and they all want to start small either because they can't afford larger or they don't have room. *BIG MISTAKE!!*

At the tender old age of 45 I have been around aquariums of all types for over 30 years. I have seen all methods of filtration and even used most of them at some point or another.

I also manage a LFS carrying both freshwater and saltwater livestock. I can not believe the number of people that suddenly think they can do anything they want regardless of what the experts say. A small (very small) percentage may succeed but it will be those that put in so much time on the tank that they have little to no other life.

I had a man come into the store last week with his daughter. They bought an 8 Gallon picture frame tank from somewhere and want to make it saltwater. They have never done saltwater before. I spent 45 minutes explaining to them why they don't want to do this and how I did not want to take their money for something I knew would fail. I said I would feel dishonest for doing so. After seeing that the man was getting upset and about ready to walk out and go somewhere else that would sell him anything I told him I will sell him the things he needs if he still insists on doing it but I still don't recommend it. After another 30 mins of him thinking about it he said to me he wants to do it. He spent over $175 on the things the tank would need including heater, 2 part additive, Decorations he picked out and other little stuff. There is no skimmer that will fit on such a tank. It was to be a B-Day gift for his wife on Sunday. I have not seem him since that day.

If you have Lot's of cash laying around that you want to risk wasting on a saltwater tank small than 50 gallons then just send the cash to me and I'll invest it with less risk in the stock market. My funds are not unlimited and I have many years experience with aquariums as well as many years working in LFS's and I still keep tanks over 50G's. Why? Because it's easier and I don't lose my animals to the least little thing. A Mis dose of anything is deadly, evaporation can be deadly in a small tank due to the changes in Specific Gravity. Temperature swings are just as deadly to both fish & Corals.

Bottom line, If you are too blind to see what has already been learned by the pros and you have cash to throw away laying around then by all means, Go for it. few of you will succeed because you put the time and effort into it leaving little to no time for anything else and forgetting weekend getaways because your tank can't run a day without attention. The rest will fail and then tell others how hard it is to keep a saltwater tank making others afraid of ever trying the hobby. 

So I am not going to respond to any more posts where a person is planning to start a small marine tank. I am tired of beating my head against the wall. Let them throw money away!


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## Ice

Ok - I understand your frustration with people as you say rushing to start their first marine tank by going smaller than 50 gallons and it bugs you to no end. Granted you have the experience for 30+ years with SW. Nowadays people don't have the room or the money to go for a larger tank. I can see going 30 gallons or even 28 gallons can be done with the right equipment, the right amount of fish, live rock, live sand and a whole lot of research; I believe it can be done. I'm just a beginner myself just barely scratched the surface with SW and taking things real sloooooooooooow before I actually get my feet wet.   :fish:


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## Reefneck

It has nothing to do with "Rushing"! Even people that study for 6 months before doing it fail! It's not what a person knows....Even the experts fail with small tanks. And a small tank most times will cost you more than a large tank would have by the time you make mistakes and learn the hard way.

Money is not the issue! I have been out of work for almost a year since I was almost killed last november. I am the sole income for the house with a wife and 2 children. You think I had a lot of money to start my tanks? Nope! I started with used tanks, used equipment, Fish from other people, etc. As I grew things and traded other things I got more and more tanks/equipment and better things to work with. Just last week I got over $300 in fish from a guy that had to move this past weekend for $20.

Anyway, point is "real sloooooooooooow" has nothing at all to do with it. The same problems exist no matter how much you know, think you know, read, learn or otherwise aquire.


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## Jonno

I agree with reefneck 100% if you look at the last posts on people wanting to setup marine tanks 50% of them are below 30 gallons of water. I'm a beginner myself only started 6 months ago but did months of reading up before. Before i kept marines i breed and kept freshwater fish for about 4 years and its a whole different ball game i was stunned to how much knowledge you have to have in setting up a reef tank. 
My next door neighbour recently started keeping freshwater fish and bought 1 of my tanks off me i was stunned to find he had just bought a 15 gallon tank trying to set it up into a marine tank i asked him why did he buy a small tank and he said that the lfs said it would be all right, he is still at school and as hardly any money and is finding it difficult. 

People moan they don't have enough space & money but if you don't, why are you setting up a marine tank? at the end of the day we are hear to keep fish and are give our knowledge if you want to put alot of time / money and hardwork into setting up a small tank then please accept people are going to have different opinions on the size you should keep and people have different success with different sizes and methods. at the end of the day somethings are going to work and somethings aren't. But reefneck i agree with you 100% on what you are saying 

Keep up the good work ! 

- Jonno


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## Osiris

Like he said its just problem with people doing small tanks nano's rush it. Patience and constant work is needed on nano tanks not saying its impossible but majority of time their not up to the maintenance on these which is at least once a day but twice a day preferably. 

But if their here at fishforums their in the right direction. But let's not push them out the door by just saying no can recommend its not good to do it but more then likely their mind is made up and our part is to help them best we can......

One of the reasons i gave up a nano tank i am only home around for 6months of the year the first 6 months im usually gone 12hrs a day at least, the tank suffers.

If beginner at keeping and wanting to do nano's how about a sort of check list to make sure things are getting done? top off's, feeding, water changes, deteris blow off, etc. 

Reminder HEAT is another problem in small tanks. but can easily be taken care of with fans. water changes is prolly upmost important thing about a nano.


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## Zoe

> But if their here at fishforums their in the right direction. But let's not push them out the door by just saying no can recommend its not good to do it but more then likely their mind is made up and our part is to help them best we can......


Yes... also, some people just don't _know_. There are lots of hard-headed people out there but I'm sure there are plenty who used to think "a nano with a clownfish would be awesome!" but then realized why it would not be possible, really, and decided to wait for bigger and better. Like me, for example.

There's no sense getting upset or taking it personally, I think; all you can do is tell them, explain why, and hope they get it and follow the advice. If they are really committed to a small marine tank, there's not much anyone can do but try to help, or just ignore them.

Zoe


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## Osiris

Somebody went and quoted me? how dare them!  Think im in a decent mood considering havent gotten laid in a week :lol:

But yea you know i'd like to draw more SW members here we need someone in graphics to create fishforums a SW like banner and a FW one livebeareres and another one with cichlids and another one with catfish, hmm i better go email my man sunpun.


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## Fishfirst

Being in college, I understand how tight a checkbook can be... I admit, I've tried smaller aquariums, but in the end they've been too much work to be worth keeping. So from early on, I've been doing tanks larger than 55 gallons... I look for steals, deals, and trade for stuff. Heck... on a meere $7.50/hour I have a beautiful apartment, loaded with tanks... including a 210 gallon reef that I'm absolutely LOVEING, and a 125 gallon fish only, and a 65 gallon seahorse tank(<-- I've only invested around $250 into the 65 gallon seahorse tank so far because of major luck at finding good deals).


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## Ice

Wow ! It's good hear what everybody has to say about their experiences and it's true for some of us who like to try a 30 or just alittle under 30 gallons a chance. Yes ,there are issues (heat, maintaining, etc ...) to deal with but maybe it's something we all need to start out with and maybe, just maybe move on to bigger like 36 gallons & up. It's worth a try. Just so you know - I don't take things too personally but will appreciate any help and advice. No hard feelings here at all and I certainly don't want to aggitate the "Big Tuna" here. LOL !! Just kidding ! :lol:


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## Zoe

> Somebody went and quoted me? how dare them! Think im in a decent mood considering havent gotten laid in a week


Sorry! Oops, there I go again! 

In regards to what Ice said, I do agree. For a lot of kids, when your parents tell it's stupid to do a certain thing, what do they do? Go try it. In this case I am concerned more for the welfare of the fishies than someone's $ (or scraped knees or hangovers). But it's a fair bet that once someone is on this forum they care about fish so all one can hope to do is, like I said, to explain why it's not a viable option most of the time, and hope they listen.


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## Reefneck

Ice said:


> maybe it's something we all need to start out with and maybe, just maybe move on to bigger like 36 gallons & up. It's worth a try.


This is complete insane thinking! Why would "we all" need to start with the thing that is most likely to fail and turn us against the hobby making us bad mouth it to others about how hard it is and just destroy the hoppy as a whole?

If "we all" need to start with small, unstable and hard to maintain tanks this hobby would already be in a world of trouble and the goal of helping to save the Coral Reefs of the world would be trashed.


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## Zoe

It's not so much a matter of "everyone needing" to try it out - it's just where your thoughts begin. And if you don't know better or don't listen to people who know what they are talking about, it's a route easily taken, no? 
I remember seeing a 24gal nano cube with a clown or some other little fish and assorted inverts at an LFS that looked amazing. I totally wanted to do the same thing and may well have, but I asked why the fish kept changing and they told me that they kept dying... :S

But anyway, I don't think that the saltwater fish hobby is in any danger  If someone wants a marine tank enough they'll do it, regardless of whether some guy says "I tried it once in a 10gallon tank and everything died!", right?


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## Ice

Wow ! I give up !


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## Fishfirst

Don't give up... 

some easy ways to increase water volume

Sump: A tank/rubbermaid container that is below your main aquarium.
that is attached to the main system by a overflow and plumbing and a pump that pumps water back to the main system.
Refugium: similar to a sump, except you throw some lighting on it and grow macro algae in it, it becomes a great way to filter the water.


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## Reefneck

Zoe said:


> But anyway, I don't think that the saltwater fish hobby is in any danger  If someone wants a marine tank enough they'll do it, regardless of whether some guy says "I tried it once in a 10gallon tank and everything died!", right?


Not exactly true! I have people in the store every single day that say things like "I'd love to do a marine tank but I heard it's a pain the the $$$". Or "My friend said it's so hard" referring to keeping a marine tank.

So yea, It is in danger everyday. The more people that spead this BS, the more that will believe it. Once they all think it's "too hard" very few will enter the hobby and as others exit the hobby by death, moving or whatever it leaves fewer & fewer people to do it.


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## predator

i have a 1 gal that is cycling... y? ive heard its hard... i have a vette that i want to squeeze 500 naturally aspirated horse power (to the ground) out of... why? ive heard its hard...

from my point of view im an engineer... i see problems i want to solve them... im broke so i want to solve them cheaply... maybe you should consider the fact that someone like me might be able to do something for the hobby... ive been working diligently on an auto top off and i think i have it figured out once i get the time to redo it (currently cut all the bottles i have into swiss cheese and need some larger tubing)...

once i get it worked out alot of you will be able to used it in a 5 to 10 gallon version to keep your reef tanks topped of and in perfect chemical balance...

after i solve that problem i will have more to solve... hopefully in the end i will have a very small, stable tank that isnt incredibly dificult to take care of... maybe me or someone like me can do enough to make it where ppl that do want to keep 10 gallons have some hope and maybe that will bring more ppl to the hobby...

and its my opinion that if you were really that seriously against this you would never have sold him the items...

BTW... im not saying shoving a shark in a 10 gal is kosher....

-me


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## Reefneck

Sorry dude but there comes a time when you have to back off a customer and sell them what they want. It's business. They are going to end up with the stuff from somewhere else anyway, Why not at least sell the the stuff that will help the most along with the advice against doing it? This way when it crashes, He will respect the fact that I warned him yet didn't turn down his business and he will come back again.

Getting horsepower out a car is in no way related to this!

Using your analogy I could say that I have worked hard to have a family.....Docs said I had a one in a million chance of ever having kids when I was 24. I have 4 beautiful daughters.....Why, Because it was hard! It has nothing to do with stability of a marine tank though.

And if I want an Auto Top off system, I'll buy one. I don't need you reinventing the wheel and thinking you fathered the internet.

Whether or not you succeed will not make it "where ppl that do want to keep 10 gallons have some hope and maybe that will bring more ppl to the hobby..." Unless you come with several ingenious and breakthrough products that simulate the ocean in a soup can better than what is available today you will make little difference.

It also helps people considerably when you can type properly....People is spelled P E O P L E, Not ppl!

EDIT: To remove content I felt was inappropriate.


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## CollegeReefer

1 gal is even small for a pico. Most pico tanks around around 3 gal to 5 gal. Of course in a pico you can't have any fish. But you can most def have a few inverts and corals if you have decent lighting.


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## predator

im broke because i choose to be (too many cars to high a lifestyle)... and considering have been out of school for a year... i think im doing ok...

and im just saying i enjoy a challenge... thats y i compared it to cars... there are always lil imporvenments to be made on anything... nothing is perpetual... sooooo nothing is perfect...

and apparently someone does need to reinvent the wheel because ive seen way too many electronic top offs and in all the nano and pico sites ive lurked on the best idea ive seen is a dripping method... it can be done better... and i love that you appriciate the fact im devoting my time and energy to a common issue...

oh and i chose a 1 gallon because it will fluctuate so badly... if i can find methods to stabilize it the same methods will work on larger tanks...

-me


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## Reefneck

I too enjoy a good challenge! I Bungee jump, have driven at almost 80MPH 1/2" off the ground, Assembled one of those aluminum storage sheds by myself (EEK) and currently drive a Cadillac Sedan deVille with my hair in a ponytail! (Now THAT is a challenge). I keep wondering which officer is going to stop me next wondering what old ladys car I stole. lol


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## Ice

No - when I said "Wow ! I give up !" I meant in a way that I was alittle discouraged with Reefneck's comment with to me trying to start a marine tank with a 28 gallon; even though I'm not looking to start one in the very immediate future but in a year or 2. Although I do understand your point of view and all. I now feel it's not my place to argue with my reason starting a marine tank. Peace out (for now).  :-(


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## Reefneck

Look around Ice.....I am not alone in trying to discourage something that has more chances of failure than for success. This was not directed at you alone, There have been several posts in the past week with people wanting to do this and I would feel horrible if I said nothing or encouraged it and it failed as it most likely will. I would feel partially at fault.

So I ask that people listen to the experts that have tried and failed. That they start with 50 gallons or more so they can be successful on theri first try and then after a person has learned all there is involved they may decide it was smart not to do a small tank.

Should also consider the animals that go into these failed experiments and suffer or die because things go wrong.


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## Ice

Ok then. Let me ask you one more question - what are your thoughts on either 36 gallon or a 40 gallon tank ? With the idea everybody SHOULD start with a 50 - 55 gallon tank is abit of a reach in cost to equip it and and live rock / live sand. The other reason why some people don't want to go 50 - 55 gallons is simply the lack of space due to the actual size of the tank to display it. I do understand the advantages of larger tanks (water more stable etc ...) but do think those under 55 gallons can do well except they have to be more cautious and dilligient with making sure the tank doesn't get a heavy bioload and crash altogether. The reason I want to start SW is I don't like freshwater fish setup nor freshwater fish. One reason is I personnaly think they tend to be messy fish and not as beautiful as Marine fish. Granted, some would say African and S. American Chiclids rival marine fish in beauty but I personaly don't see the comparision. I know I'm going to get some FW aquarists fins shaking at the comment but that's just my opinion. So, as I said before - I do respect your opinion; but I think not everyone SHOULD have to start out with a 50-55 gallon as a beginner SW aquarist. 
I just wanted to get this off my chest because it has been on my mind since last night. 
I have visited a couple of pet shops (not the big box types) that carried both freshwater & marine fishes and asked if it's possible to do SW with smaller tanks whether it's 28, 30, 36, or 40 gallons and say it's possible with the right set-ups, the minimal amount of fish in tank recommended, and the dilligient maintenance, feeding, and so on. If I have offended you Reefneck, I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I have started off on a bad way not only to you but to others as well that they have the experience with SW tanks.


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## Zoe

I'm starting to understand why Reefneck gets so frustrated.



> Let me ask you one more question - what are your thoughts on either 36 gallon or a 40 gallon tank ? With the idea everybody SHOULD start with a 50 - 55 gallon tank is abit of a reach in cost to equip it and and live rock / live sand. The other reason why some people don't want to go 50 - 55 gallons is simply the lack of space due to the actual size of the tank to display it.


You're missing the point, here. If you can't accomodate a large enough tank due to room and money constraints, then you have no business getting a marine. It's the same thing with kids and pets. If you can't get outside every day to walk your huge german sheppard, DON'T get one. If don't make enough money to feed yourself, DON'T go having kids. Know what I mean? If YOU want to be broke and cramped that's different, obviously. But why risk fishies lives because you can't afford another 10-20 lbs of live rock and a large tank and few more square feet of space?



> I have visited a couple of pet shops (not the big box types) that carried both freshwater & marine fishes and asked if it's possible to do SW with smaller tanks whether it's 28, 30, 36, or 40 gallons and say it's possible with the right set-ups, the minimal amount of fish in tank recommended, and the dilligient maintenance, feeding, and so on.


Well, of course. Anything is possible with enough diligence and perfect maintenance. And a sump or a refugium. And the right equipment... But will you succeed? That's debateable...
But anyway, yes, of course a pet store will tell you that...

Edit: gramaaaaar mistaaake


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## Reefneck

Can't think of anything I need to add to that Zoe.....Well put!


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## CollegeReefer

Ice, If you want to find suport for a tank less then 50 gals go too http://www.nano-reef.com That is where i started. The whole site is dedicated to nano tanks. You will find many expereinced posters on that site who have nothing but sucess with there nano. I actually got all of my coral frags from a members 10 gallon tank that has been up and running for 2 years with no fish loss or coral loss.

Zachary
24 gallon reef


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## Fishfirst

Note: www.nano-reefs.com also has a lot of people who have failed doing nano tanks. As well as done some unethical things in my book... sign up at your own risk.


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## CollegeReefer

Yes there are lots of people who do nano's and have them fail. Like it has been said on this thread and other threads by reefneck and others, a nano is a lot more work then a bigger tank. You have to take it very slow. You have to be careful what you add. You have to plan on doing weekly water changes. You also have to test the water parm. a lot more then you would on a lager tank. You have to watch the temp a lot closer because there is less volume which means that it can change the much quicker. This means you will have to have fans on the tank if it is warm out. You may even have to invest in a chiller for the tank as well. I know after this winter i will be installing nano-tuners ICA chiller in my nano. As for the unethical part i am not exactly sure what fishfirst is refering too. There are those on there who put fish in way to small of tanks, who over stock there tank, and use damsels to cycle there tank. I find this too be unethical, but no matter how often you say something to them they don't really care and keep adding fish. But there are also those who are really caring about the fish health and will get on the case of anyone who does those things. I am not saying you need to take everything they say to heart. I am just trying to point you in the right dirrection if you do start your 28 gallon, which too me seems like the route you are still going to go. There is a lot of good information on that site to help you have a succefull tank.


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## Ice

Don't get me wrong - I understand his frustration getting thru me and everyone who wants to get into marine fish using smaller tank. Now I'm just about fed up with the notion that it's best to start with larger tank and I respect that. I guess it's up to me to try and succeed (or fail) at keeping a marine fish aquarium. Who knows what will happen. Until then, I will let this topic rest and keep my insanity from getting out of control. I appreciate the advice and suggestions by all. Apologies to Reefneck for the aggitation I may have caused in this forum topic.


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## Zoe

Ice said:


> Don't get me wrong - I understand his frustration getting thru me and everyone who wants to get into marine fish using smaller tank. Now I'm just about fed up with the notion that it's best to start with larger tank and I respect that..


What I don't understand is that you seem to know it's best to go with a larger tank, and yet you choose not to, and your reason is that you don't have enough money or space. That's not an acceptable reason to jeopardise your fish. It's up to you to succeed or fail, but guess who gets flushed down the toilet if it's the latter?

I wish you all the best in setting up a good, healthy tank. We all do I'm sure. I just don't think your reason is valid. If you don't have the money, sell your 30gal, save your pennies and buy a 55gal. Save some more and you can afford more live rock... Why make your life and those of your future fish much more difficult, because you don't want to invest more into you tank?

Zoe


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## Dr_House

What this seems to boil down to is how much effort a person is willing to expend on something. It is indisputable that the likelyhood of failure is far greater in a smaller tank. However, there is more than a smattering of people who have failed with larger aquaria. All you need to do is look at the classified ads in your local newspaper to find scads of people who are selling off their 100+ gallon aquaria because they didn't work out.

It is my opinion that nano tanks should be placed in the "advanced aquarist only" section along with Arowana, Bala Sharks, etc. If an experienced and dedicated fish-keeper is interested in a nano-tank, and is willing to meet the rigorous demands of owning such a system, I give them a big thumbs up.


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## TheOldSalt

Well, I guess there's nothing more to add, really. Things got a lot less friendly in this thread than FishForums is supposed to be, but I suppose what's done is done. 
Ice, I hope you have gotten the message, despite the messengers. Small saltwater tanks are certainly doable, but very poor choices for beginners. There is precious little room for error in a small saltwater tank, and beginners make LOTS of mistakes virtually guaranteed to wipe out everything in a small tank. ( while everything could have survived in a bigger one )

If you aren't the type to just jump into things, but will instead study, study, study and plan first, then there's no reason that you can't succeeed with only a few small complications along the way. If you can absolutely learn the "why" behind every "what" before you start, then you can do just fine. Just slap something together and hope for the best, though, and hope will be something you'll soon be without...

Good luck! Try not to need it.


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## harif87

I just want to point out something that may or may not seem obvious to you but, if you plan on keeping a nano-tank, make sure to keep in mind that altough the efforts you might be willing to supply the project with may be endless the fish-corals-inverts etc arent. The ocean is limited and it has to keep up with us people who are taking its "inventory" at a rapid rate. The one reason why i wouldnt reccommend going small, to a person who isnt that experienced, is not because your efforts might be wasted but rather because the oceans supply will be wasted. Im not at all saying this from a humanitarian aspect that would be based on the harming of animals but i am speaking from a conservationist point of view. If we have multiple failed attempts in keeping these fish then we're wasting the beautiful stock that the world has to offer us, and if we keep up our habits one day the world wont be able to offer the same things as it used to. So please please make sure you know what your doing.


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## Fishfirst

On that note, which is a very important point, I feel I have to close this thread to impeed on any personal attacks that either already have been made or are going to be made.


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## Zoe

Fishfirst said:


> On that note, which is a very important point, I feel I have to close this thread to impeed on any personal attacks that either already have been made or are going to be made.


I don't agree  This particular threat has been curt, honest and stubborn, but not rude, no personal attacks and I really think that even though we all may not say things the best way, that we have good intentions (whether that be to try to make a small tank function through hard work, or to try to disuade someone from wasting life / money / time on something that may or may not succeed).

Anyway, if everyone took a spite to everyone who didn't share their opinions, no one would be civil to anybody.

Zoe


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## Fishfirst

This thread is closed. refrain from posting... (technical difficulties on my end here)


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## Reefneck

There has been no reason posted to close this thread! There has been no personal attacks! I think everyone got the point across well.

Now if all this info is wasted when the next person reading it can't ask a question about it then why are we here?


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## Ice

No personal attacks at all directed at me or anyone. I certainly don't think things got unfriendly at all. Just some good old fashioned advicbeing exchanged. No hard feelings here with me.


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## Fishfirst

Well then I guess I'm wrong... continue your convo... thanks for being a sport everyone!


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## TheOldSalt

Right then, carry on...but we're watching youse guys!

I would suggest steering the conversation toward methods for making small tanks actually work, but I don't want to encourage smalltanking, either. Do what you will.


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## Fishfirst

on that note... I'd have to say that frequent monitoring of levels, a low bioload, a good skimmer, and frequent water changes are probably the way to go with a small tank. Doing things slowly and not overreacting to problems also help.


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## vvolfe1

I'm new at this but if I'm correct what you guys and gals are saying is that larger tanks are better. What do you think woulf be the smallest size to start with then? I've been thinking of either a 75 or 125 gal tank. I'd like to do a reef with a few fish. From what I have gathered so far anything smaller than a 75 will limit the amount of fish I can have. Not that I want alot of fish but maybe 4-12 fish with a couple of pairs. If I'm correct also once Everything is set up the tank cycled etc. the larger the tank the less out of whack it will become when I make small additions. With the smaller tank the more out of balance an addition can create.


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## Osiris

A 50-75g would be feasible for beginners.


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## vvolfe1

Thanks Osiris, I've been thinking of either a 75 or 125 gal. I have been leaning towards a 125 for a few reasons. It would fit along my one wall nicely. It would give me plenty of room for different species of coral. I could eventually get an enemine or two. And some of the fish I'd like suggest 75 at minimum. With a larger tank the fish will be able to stake out territories better too.
The drawbacks are mostly upsizing the equipment and more equipment. The weight is kinda a drawback too but either way I will be adding a few supports to my floor joists. I figure the weigh of a 75 gal tank around 800- 1000 pounds where as a 125 to be close to 1500 pounds.


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## Fishfirst

Hi vvolfe1, 

A few comments:

First of all, welcome to fishforums!
I'd like to firstly say that congratulations! You are starting off on the right foot when you are talking about tank sizes... a larger tank will definately be a bit more enjoyable for you and your family.
Secondly, about your fish choice... which fishes were you thinking of getting?
I see you want some corals? Which kinds?
As for anemones... I highly encourage you to NOT get these. Mainly because of their requirements and track record in aquaria. They are much better off in the ocean.
The 125 is around 1,250lbs when fully setup and stocked. However, you are putting it on a larger surface than a 75 gallon tank... and therefor there isn't a huge weight difference per square foot. I would encourage you to find a wall with the supports being perpendicular to the tank. This will make sure you don't have problems with support in the long run.


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## vvolfe1

Hi Fishfirst, 

Thanks for the greetings.

As for tank size I think I'll probably go with a 125 gal to start. It will take much more to fill and start up will cost more. In the long run it will be cheaper than getting a 75 gal tank that I already know I will out grow. As for price though there are usually some good deals on ebay for someone willing to drive a few hours. I have been mainly been focusing on equipment so far and the amount of live rock I'll be needing. From what I have understood so far a 125 gal tank would be ideal with 150-200 pounds of live rock. I'm not to sure on the live sand? I'll probably make a purchase in a week or so depending on if I can find a good deal. 
As for where I'll put my tank it is by a load bearing wall. I have just finished fixing the cracks in my plaster though in my 100+ year old house. So needed or not I will be putting in additional supports for the floor. They will be cheap compared to having to go back to doing something I dislike. ; )
I have not really thought to much on the animal life yet. I do know I'd like to get a pair of clownfish. There are three different types of clowns I've been looking at, a Blue regal tang and maybe a yellow tang a few blenneys.
Any suggestions for peaceful easy to take care of fish that play good with others would be appreciated. As for coral I'll probably start out with some of the easier ones to grow and work my way into more of what I like in the future. Being new to this almost everything looks great to me so I'll probably just research on the easier species to start with until I find some things I like better than others.


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## Fishfirst

lol I'd make your own thread man... as for species that would work well together with a pair of percs

Royal Gramma
Firefish
Pajama Cardinalfish
Yellow Tang (all of the zebrasoma spp. tangs would also work instead of a yellow except for a sailfin tang)
Dwarf Angel (may eat coral though)
Fairy wrasse


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## Reefneck

I don't mind the hijack on my thread but you'll get more good responses if you start your own thread. 

Glad to see you getting started on the right foot and if there is anything I can help you with, Just ask.

Keri


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## oldsaltytexan

UMMMM how to say this without stpeeing on toes??

dont know so here it goes i have a 29 gal reef and a 10 gal reef my brother has a 20 gal reef and also a 10 gal reef neither of us have had bit of problems with fish or anything dying out my biggest tank is a 55 gal tank with freshwater i use to be a ast mgr at a pet store so i know there whole purpose is to make money plain and simple the nemo craze started the lil nemo in sally or jr's room in the super small tank would look cute
but you can make a small sw tank work just dont plan on making the great berrier reef out of it keep it simple when in a pet store rember that spending 90 dollars would be alot to some its nothing to the pet store with overhead and employee cost so up selling is the key to them staying in the biz 

i wouldnt recomend putting nemo in a 2 1/2 gal tank but would in a 10-20 gal
if the employee would be more interested in helpping instead of maximising the sale. also by doing check up water testing after the sale aand maby a phone call to see if everything is alright this hobby would be better for all
because rember 

1 good store gets 4 recomdations 

1 bad store who refuses to sell to joe public for what ever reason gets told on to the whole neighborhood


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## Guest

im not saying anything, but look at this,

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=806020

if this dosent work copy and paste it into the adderss bar and take a look!!!

thanks

Sean


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## Reefneck

I don't see what this has to do with this thread! This guy was NOT a beginner and has lots of experience. Also notice no updates since April? Tells me it failed and he's not saying.

Let's try to stay on the topic of the thread please.


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## Osiris

I agree, keep to the topic..


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## predator

Reefneck said:


> I don't see what this has to do with this thread! This guy was NOT a beginner and has lots of experience. Also notice no updates since April? Tells me it failed and he's not saying.
> 
> Let's try to stay on the topic of the thread please.


its a link to a small tank... is that not what this thread is about?

oh and just to keep you updated my lil tank is doing ok i guess... all that is running around in it is the hitch hikers that came with the LR... the levels are much more stable that\n i thought they would be and the few inhabitants that came along seem to be doing well... since i have been working like 65 hours a week no time to mod the tank to test out some theories i have...

i will say this though... im considering building a tank for it and getting it out of the one its in... ill prolly increase volume slightly, but not for water volume, but simply to add a sump of about .5 gallons to the back to get all the equipment out of sight... hide the heater... add a built in water leveler... a DIY skimmer...

-me


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## Reefneck

predator said:


> its a link to a small tank... is that not what this thread is about?


No, It's a link to another forum where someone who has nothing better to do put saltwater in an antfarm! I don't call that a tank.


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## predator

For one thing... to come up with examples you pretty much have to link another forum... not really much on the subject to link to around here so i personally can easily look past that...

and even thought it happens to be an ant farm its a cool shape... and last time i checked walmart didnt have a pico tank isle... whether its a vase or a shotglass if it holds water and is intended for fish (or aquaria in general) it's a tank...

and i got a question for you... you are all so against this, but are their not animals that survive intire lives in tide pools? there are organisms for all environments... granted there are things that will not work in small confines, but some things will... ever thing about telling someone yeah its hard and you might not want to try it, but if you do try it with ________ they live in tide pools and do very well in small places...

-me


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## Fishfirst

"are their not animals that survive intire lives in tide pools? there are organisms for all environments... granted there are things that will not work in small confines, but some things will... ever thing about telling someone yeah its hard and you might not want to try it, but if you do try it with ________ they live in tide pools and do very well in small places..."


tidal pools are hundreds of gallons usually if they have stuff living in them that is solely dependent on seawater... also around 99% of the stuff you get for a marine tank is not found in tidal pools. Sorry but I have to disagree.

Also I don't consider a betta bowl a "tank" but thats just my opinion


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## Reefneck

predator said:


> whether its a vase or a shotglass if it holds water and is intended for fish (or aquaria in general) it's a tank...


You just showed your own ignorence right there with this exact quote! "and is intended for fish".

An Ant Farm was NOT "intended for fish"!!

Now please stop trying to start an argument in my thread with little to no idea what you are talking about!


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## leveldrummer

there are animals that spend there entire life in tide pools, but those tide pools have freshwater added back to them in rain, they also flood twice a day with the tides and get a huge water change. if some kid sets up a 5 gallon and forgets to top off ONE day, the specific gravity with spike and could crash the tank very fast. that thread about the ant farm is stupid imo. its just someone trying to keep a tiny tank alive. my purpose is to set up an aquarium to enjoy, not do the most challenging thing i can think of. so i have to work my ass off just to look at a hermit crab and a couple zoo's, and like mentioned before, that tank probably crashed in a week. this thread was intended to help people set up a nice tank, with low maintenance that they can enjoy. sure, setting up small tanks are entirely possible, but it is more work, and you cant say it isnt. if your up for the work, fine go for it. but you have a much higher chance at failing. if you want something low maintenance, thats nice to look at. a larger tank is your best bet. these arent opinions, its pretty well documented everywhere. and it isnt some ploy by the local fish store conspiracy, its simple science. water params fluctuate to fast in a small body of water. (and fyi- even the bettas that are able to survive in a puddle of water. they get frequent freshwater changes and have large mangroves to keep the nitrates low. not something the usually person provides in a 1/2 gallon bowl)


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## predator

Reefneck said:


> You just showed your own ignorence right there with this exact quote! "and is intended for fish".
> 
> An Ant Farm was NOT "intended for fish"!!
> 
> Now please stop trying to start an argument in my thread with little to no idea what you are talking about!


In no way am i trying to start a fight... i didnt know that seeing another side of an issue and expressing some opinion about it was provoking you...

and when i say "whether its a vase or a shotglass if it holds water and is intended for fish (or aquaria in general) it's a tank..." read it as "whether its a vase or a shotglass if it holds water and is intended for fish (or aquaria in general) BY THE USER it's a tank..."

I have never said its not more difficult or more restrictive... there are daily requirements from such a tank that other tanks dont need... but i see nothing wrong in working your ass off to have a tank that will ony support a shrimp... i see your points on not keeping fish in such a small tank, but inverts are normally used for food so whats the harm?

-me


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## Reefneck

There is no "other side" to it because an Ant Farm is NOT a tank! Period! And there is not even a "shrimp" that could exist comfortably in less than 12 ounces of water Except for a copepod, amphipod or other microscopic organisim! Think about the animals in question instead of your own self once in a while.

Oh and when I eat food shrimp I don't eat microscopic shrimp. I prefer jumbo! Let's see you fit even one in an Ant Farm! I also don't eat "Sexy Shrimp, Harlequin Shrimp, Fire Shrimp, Cleaner Shrimp, Camel Shrimp or any other Ornamental Shrimp kept in aquaria!

I'm finished with this BS argument!


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## oldsaltytexan

the smaller the tank the more work it is to keep it educuate people on that point the better informed they become to handel the peoblems that can happen in larger tanks


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## Guest

Im sorry if my post caused this argument, but i thought the thread was about small tanks so i posted one to show people. I dident say if it was bad or good i just thought people would be interested to see a small tank on a small tank thread!

Betta5


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## predator

you in no way were in the wrong... dont know whats twisted ppl's BVDs around here...

-me


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## Reefneck

predator said:


> you in no way were in the wrong... dont know whats twisted ppl's BVDs around here...
> 
> -me



Look in a mirror!


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## predator

Dude dont turn this into a personal battle please... Most ppl are trying to just discuss the issue here and the last 3 or 4 post you have made arent along the lines of discussion...

I'm not really in the mood to throw down internet style with a 45 y/o man... not because im intemidated or what not, just not in the mood...

-me


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## Reefneck

predator said:


> Dude dont turn this into a personal battle please... Most ppl are trying to just discuss the issue here and the last 3 or 4 post you have made arent along the lines of discussion...
> 
> I'm not really in the mood to throw down internet style with a 45 y/o man... not because im intemidated or what not, just not in the mood...
> 
> -me


It would be mostly because you seem to need to have the last word. I dropped this BS argument and you keep it going. Try being an adult now and let it go without getting in the last word. if you think you are going to "throw down" on this old man you got another thing coming. I laugh at people that go ballistic online. I could use a good laugh. You really should learn how to spell or at least use spell check.


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## Zoe

This has turned into quite the pi**ng contest


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## Ice

LOL !! OK boys - it's time you both get a TIME OUT !!


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## CollegeReefer

betta,

It is fine what you posted, but like reefneck has stated it is some what off topic. Can it be considred a fish tank.....maybe. The point of this thread though was to get people to start with a larger tank. Pico tanks are a whole new breed of tanks that has caused much debate. But pico tanks are typically 3 gallons sometimes 1 gallon. The art farm is kind of a joke and i personally thing it is wrong for someone to try and turn an antfarm into a pico. There is just no room for even the smallest of inverts. So don't feel bad about posting it. I understand why you posted it because it is a tank that is smaller then 50 gallons. Now hopefully predator and reefneck will stop this disscussion on the antfarm so that this thread doesn't get closed.


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## Fishfirst

eh this thread has outlived its worth. Thread closed.


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