# Fishless cycle strikes again!



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Okay, so I do an 80% water change. There is this white slime covering everything - I have no idea what it is. I do not recall it being in my first tank after the cycle but it was cycled with fish. I wiped it off the sides of the tank, off the heater, the thermometer, etc. As I am doing the water change I am trying desperately to get as much of this gooey looking stuff as possible. I notice that it is all over the silk plants and gravel. I see it is still on some surfaces I missed. Does anybody have any idea what this is? Is it safe to start rinsing off the silk plants and ornaments? I know they are covered with the good bugs, maybe was one or two items per week? I think once I start vacumning it will come off of the gravel and stones.

I let the tank settle overnight because the white stuff I couldn't get with the vacumn is now circulating in the water. Yesterday my Father wound up in the hospital so nothing was done. Today I go to turn the light on to see how the water looks and the light flickers then blows! Great - I know I don't have any back-ups here. I remove the bulb and it is all corroded - How can that happen? I have NEVER seen that happen in an aquarium light. I got a automatic toothbrush that I was about to put into cleaning usage and cleaned out the receptacle as good as I could - I am really worried that some bits of the corrosion could have gotten into the tank when I was moving the aquarium hood. Do you think this is possible?

And now, on top of everything, the ammonia is still showing as .25. How is that possible if I changed 80% of the water? I have already checked my tap water and it reads no ammonia after being treated. I tried to read about the "false positive" issue that was brought up but I don't understand it - Can someone explain it to me in a way I'd understand it? I do not want to put my Betta in the tank until the ammonia shows 0. BTW, still no NitrItes and NitrAtes went down to about 5ish after the water change.

Does anybody think some of the corrosive material could have gotten in the tank? Would the filter have taken care of it if so?

I am so sorry that I have so many questions - this cycle is going to drive me crazy!

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated!


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

What did you add to the new water? Slime can be "improve slime coat" additive, dead algae, a precipitate from pH chems, bacteria, or fungus. 

A little corrosion shouldn't affect the tank much and a "'removes heavy metals" conditioner should deal with the metal. Copper can be bad if you have shrimp, though.

Your filter bacteria should be in your filter. Don't worry about decor and gravel, the amount of bacteria is very small in comparison, wash them if you want to.


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Hi emc7 and thank you for the reply. I am using Stress Coat as an additive/dechlorinator. It does say it "replaces slime coat" so maybe that's it? It's just everywhere and when it got stirred up it was all in the water, like a snow globe. It doesn't look like fungus.

The Stress Coat does say it removes heavy metal so hopefully we are safe there. I was going to get some Ghost Shrimp but I'll hold off a little bit for them.

Thank you for letting me know I can wash the decor - it just looks so nasty. Obviously, I will leave the filter as is.

Do you have any thoughts on the ammonia? That's what is bothering me - I just cannot figure it out!

Again, I appreciate your help - Thank you!


----------



## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

I believe the white slime you are seeing is a type of algae.

My thoughts on Stress Coat. It's crap. JMHO. I was having trouble with my water quality, mainly foam on the surface. I was talking with the LFS and that was when he told me about the aloe in the Stress Coat may be causing the problem. Switched to Seachem's Prime and did a huge water change. No more foam. Aloe vera to add slime coat back onto the fish?? That's not natural.


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Thank you Elliot225 for your opinion! I almost purchased the Prime last week when I was at the LFS, but thought "Why spend the $$ when you have the Stress Coat at home"? The reason I have liked the Stress Coat is because I always have Bettas and it seems to really work well for them. I, personally, have never had any water problems with it - but I certainly appreciate any input and now will know if anything weird happens with the water, it could be the Stress Coat.

Thanks again for your help.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok...this is only my opinion so folks can take it or leave it..but i would suggest...................
FIRST........my usual warning to fishkeepers.......................

"The more you mess with your tanks ; the more problems you create for yourself."
you seem to be getting readings that you shouldn't..one has to ask why.....keep everything as simple as possible..
if you have no fish there is no need for stresscoat..if you have fish and they are healthy , you do not need stresscoat...........Put the test kit on the shelf for now..leave it alone.
get rid of the stress coat...go to your local fish store and buy a bottle of "Dechlor" made by Weco..it is economical and works perfectly....
do another water change.....but do not add anything...just let the tank run..put a pinch of flake food in it...
wait 1 week and do another 30% water change...add nothing...no dechlor no nothing...wait 24 hours and test the tank and see what the readings are.i haven't used a test kit in more than 35 years so i can't tell you what your readings should be , but i am of the opinion that all the messing around you did caused some false readings..
i think at this point you could add a couple of fish..watch them and see how they do..forget the readings..pay attention to the fish...


----------



## BV77 (Jan 22, 2005)

We need a "like" button....I agree with Loha. I do not use test kits. I just do regular partial water changes.


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Hi lohachata and thanks again for your input. I know I have been a pain in the butt around here - I am just stuck with this ammonia reading. A couple of questions and hopefully I'll just fade into the sunset....

Why shouldn't I use the Stress Coat - it's the dechlorinator I use. How can I use the tap water if I don't remove the chlorine and the chloramines?

Why get Dechlor instead of Stress Coat when they do the same thing?

Today I took out all the silk plants and ornaments and got the white stuff off of them. It kicked up all the white stuff in the water but that will be dealt with when I can start vacuming. Will this white stuff hurt the fish? I know the first several times I vacumn there is going to be leftover white stuff that is going to be all in the water.

Now you gave me 2 scenarios...one is to change out the water, etc., basically wait a couple of weeks. The other is to add fish. I have just one small Betta and 2 smallish snails to add. Which would you do? I trust you as I know you have major experience in this hobby.

I know this is hard to believe but I kept a tank for 15 years with no trouble, not one sick fish, not one off reading, nothing - I only tested the nitrates every week when I changed out the water. It was easy - I just enjoyed the fish. Nothing like what I have been going through.

Thank you so very much, again, for your help!


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

stresscoat is mainly for stressed fish..there are no fish in the tank so actually no need for it.many of the brands of products like stresscoat use chemicals to agitate the fish so it produces more body slime...but you have no sick or stressed fish...why create a problem............
i have been using only Dechlor or ChloramX for more than 40 years...they are inexpensive and do the job without any extra crap going into the tank..
my suggestion was for you to do the following...first ; put away the test kit..then put away the ammonia..clean up the tank..do a large water change..about 50% or so...do not add anything as far as chemicals go..so no stresscoat and no dechlor or anything else..throw a little pinch of food in the tank and let it run for 1 week...after 1 week do a 30% waterchange..again..no chemicals of any kind..wait 24 hours and then test the water..if your readings are pretty close i would add the fish and snails..

like i said..this is just my opinion...nobody has to listen to me..

too many people freak out about their readings when quite often they are doing something wrong and causing to readings to be out of whack......that old saying goes a long ways in this hobby....KISS.......keep it simple....


----------



## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Even though I've been here just under 2 years, I have taken Loha's advice and stopped futzing with my tanks. The only time I add any dechlor to the water is if I do a BIG water change. If I'm just topping off I add nothing and I can say my tanks have never looked so good. The only stuff I add to my tanks is salt when I do those big water changes.


----------



## Guest (Sep 18, 2015)

Listen to lohachata, he knows his stuff. He yelled at me, kinda, for using stress coat that was expired. He told me to get dechlor and use it instead. Been using it ever since and will not go back to anything else. I use dechlor when I do 50% water changes. When adding dechlor, only add it to the amount of replacement water. Meaning if you take out 2.5 gallons from a 5 gallon, you would add about 6 drops of dechlor. Oh, dechlor is online as well. I had to get it off amazon. Yes dechlor is a very good product.


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Ok all - Thank you so much for your help! Lohachata - I did not know Stress Coat was for "sick" fish, as I said, I have used it in the past with no problems. Live and learn. I will do EXACTLY what you say but I cannot get DeChlor unless I get it online - I can order the DeChlor today and put the Stress Coat away. And the test kit  My only question is...Do I add eventually add DeChlor before I put the fish in, to make up for all the water I didn't treat during the water changes? 

Thank you again everyone - I hope to be a positive member around here soon! I really thought once I added the Safe Start things would be done - All I did was add one drop of ammonia - Then did an 80% water change as the fishless cycle says to do - still an ammonia reading - Maybe the Stress Coat is the culprit...Maybe it was that drop of ammonia - It's driving me crazy! Thank you.


----------



## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't like Stress Coat at all. I think it's snake oil. Good clean stable water is all that is necessary. I have only Chlorine in my water so I use Sodium Thiosulfate. It's cheap as dirt.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Stress coat is usually fine, but it can get "icky" if it's old or leave an oily film on the water. I do think less is more. Prime if also fine. IMO it has what you need and nothing else and is often the cheapest per dose you can get in the store (Make sure to get a pipette or something that can measure 1/2 a ml). 

The only time I have seen a "snow globe" effect in a tank was with the use of pH lowering additives like "Proper pH". They remove hardness from the water by turning it into a solid. Some anit-cloudiness chems may do the same. 

Ammonia can come from the water, when you dechlorinate water with chloramine in it. It can also come from anything decaying in the tank. Food, fish poop, dead algae, dead bugs, ammonia you add to fishless cycle. Anything organic, even cotton thread in a filter meda bag. Was any of your decor or substrate used before? But a "cycled" filter should consume all the ammonia quickly and leave none measurable. 

I assume you are using a clean tube for the test. Rinse it a few times in the water you are testing before you do it. If your tap water is testing 0, it is likely not a false positive. 0.25 is likely about where you want it to try to get it to cycle. \ If it was .25 after a 80%, it was likely 1.25 or higher before and you may have killed your cycle dead. You may need to dilute your ammonia if you want to keep trying the fishless cycle. 

For very small tanks,you may want to dispense with "cycling" altogether and just do 2 or more 100% water changes a week.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

the only times i dechlorinate water is when i am doing a large water change in an established inhabited tank or on a complete setup..
no fish , no dechlor...normal operation will get rid of chlorine within 24 hours on it;s own..


----------



## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

I used to never use it back when my water storage containers had a large open surface area and lots of bubbles.. When I moved and built a new fish room I found out the hard way that decholr was necessary. I have these 250 gallon water storage containers and except for the holes I drilled in them they are enclosed. Of course a small WC for me is 25%. I often change 50% daily for over stocked tanks. 

I know that it's not necessary with my Angels, but I cut my tropical fish teeth on Discus. I know in my heart if it's good for the Discus it's good for the Angels. I change water much less frequently and only 25% on my Dot fry (Pearl Gourami's) and Guppies.


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Wow - Mt thanks to emc7, LizStreithorst and of course my saviour here lohachata!

LizStreithorst - Thank you for your input on the Stress Coat - I had no idea! I have used it for about 6-7 Bettas over the course of many years and if I'm not mistaken a community tank as well, with absolutely no problems. It is already tucked way back in my fish tote for possible use if there is any sickness.

emc7 - The Stress Coat doesn't expire until 1/18. I already ordered the DeChlor that lohachata spoke about but I appreciate you sharing what you use, thank you.

I meant that the tank water resembled a snow globe when the gravel was disrupted as I removed the ornaments and silk plants for cleaning of this debris that is all over. The debris was circulating all through the water and after a few hours, settled back into the gravel. Do you have any idea what it could be? I am thinking it maybe has to do with the fishless cycle and possible the straight ammonia because I did not have it in the aquarium when I did a fish in cycle, but who knows if it's even related? Do you think the Betta and snails will be safe once I start vacumning the gravel and this stuff starts kicking up? I do have the current tank the Betta is in and I can transfter them into that until it settles into the gravel once again.
Sounds stressfull on them, being netted and moved and then netted and moved a few hours later, every week 

I did re-use silk plants and ornaments but prior to packing them away I cleaned them really good with hot water and let them air dry. I can't imagine they'd have any bearing on these readings.

I wash the test tubes in hot tap water and let them air dry, but this is after the testing. They are dry when I test again.

"If it was .25 after a 80%, it was likely 1.25 or higher before and you may have killed your cycle dead" - emc7 - That's the part I cannot understand - I was at the tail end of the cycle and used Safe Start, after a day I got 0 NitrItates, about 15 NitrAtes and .25 ammonia. After replacing 8 gallons of fresh, clean water the NitrAtes went down to about 5 but the ammonia stayed the same - .25 - screwy, I know. Any thoughts?

"You may need to dilute your ammonia if you want to keep trying the fishless cycle" - I am not quite sure what you mean, can you elaborate? Thank you.

"For very small tanks,you may want to dispense with "cycling" altogether and just do 2 or more 100% water changes a week" - emc7 - So sorry - I am not clear on this as well....can you elaborate? Thank you SO much for your time and help!

And now on to my friend lohachata who has been there for me since day 1 - your continued time and assistance is greatly appreciated. You will be happy to know, as I said above, the Stress Coat and test kits have been put away and I ordered DeChlor, which I should have this week. I may not get to the tank today (I am going on vacation later this week and have so much to do. I can try tomorrow but have an appt. and may not get to it until definitely Tuesday. Should I put a little flake food in to support the cycle?

Thank you again to everyone who has given me their experiences and information - This is such a lovely forum and I really appreciate it!


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Ammonia should vanish when the tank is cycled. that you see some may mean a problem in the cycle. If it gets higher you many need to start over. Small tanks are difficult to keep cycled. If you can't cycle, you much do 100% water changes to get the ammonia out.


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Thank you emc7 - These 100% changes are done to facilitate the cycle?


----------



## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

Not to butt in, but since he hasn't responded yet...The huge WC removes the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates from the water the fish are in. The cycle goes on in the filter in response to the water. The huge WCs keep the fish healthy until the beneficial bacteria get established in the filter.

Discus farms in Asia don't use filtration at all. They do twice daily 100% WC instead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWMnPZKJWaE


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

Ok lohachata - I got you - by the time the fish makes it into the tank, all the chlorine and chloramines will be dissapated. Again, my thanks to you - I could not have gotten to this point without you  You truly enjoy helping people and sharing your knowledge, that's a special person


----------



## LadySamsara (Aug 29, 2015)

LizStreithorst - Thank you for the response - that's the weird thing about all of this - I had no NitrItes and .25 ammonia, I did an 80% water change and was all ready to put the fish in after 24 hrs. I had the exact same reading - How can I have the same ammonia if I changed out 8 gallons of water? I don't understand it. Thank you for your help!


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i still think you were getting a false positive reading for some reason..that is why i really don't have a test kit or cycle tanks....


----------



## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't have a clue why your readings were screwy. I do like Loha. I just change tons of water until the filter catches up and watch the fish.


----------



## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

I have to ask this.............how do you know when your filter catches up with the cycling process if you don't test the water to see where the levels are? Once your tank is cycled, yes watch the fish and they will tell you by their behavior if something is wrong. But when you are cycling a tank, whether it be fishless or fish in, you have to test your water to see where your levels are at so you know if the filter has caught up with the cycle or not.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

since i don't own a test kit i may not know what the actual readings are , but i can still figure out where my tank is at...


----------



## Guest (Sep 22, 2015)

lohachata said:


> since i don't own a test kit i may not know what the actual readings are , but i can still figure out where my tank is at...


Okay, so you don't know where your water parameters are at then, but you do know where your tanks are? Well I sure do hope so, because if you didn't know where your tanks were then there might be a problem and you will need to be checking into a nursing home........lol.


----------



## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

When cycling, doesn't doing really big water changes affect the process??


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

a major water change will change all of the levels of the cycle , but it really does not have much effect on the beneficial bacteria that is growing as it grows on the hard surfaces such as substrate , tank walls , decor , and in the filter media.the water itself has very little of the bacteria in it. so when you change the water you reduce the ammonia and such which makes it safer for the animals.the cycle will continue as normal but the levels will not spike as high.


----------



## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

Would it be better to do just a 10% to 20% water change instead of the really big changes?

Does doing the big changes also give a inaccurate ammonia test reading, if you test for it?

I've taken the loha approach...leave it alone and let it do its thing.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

to be honest Elliot , i prefer to maintain tanks with just the weekly 30% water changes..but when there is a problem i think that larger changes are important..but only 50-60%. things have to be pretty bad to warrant an 80-100% change..
IMO , people tend to become overly dependent on the test kits and they really neglect actually paying attention to the tank itself and the inhabitants.if there is any kind of problem i often see folks panic and start dumping all kinds of crap in the tank because somebody PMd them and told them to.i have seen people add 3 and 4 kinds of meds because their fish got ich because they get 10 different answers on how to treat.it is extremely rare that more than 1 kind of med is needed to treat a tank ; for anything.

i also have found that there are a number of factors that can easily alter test reading.most hobbyists have no idea about testing things.and they do all kinds of things that can alter test results without knowing it.most testing systems will tell you to never allow your skin to come in contact with the test sample..I.E. finger over the top of the tube when shaking it.all test equipment should be cleaned with " deionized water" , not tap..allowed to air dry but still be protected from any kind of contaminants.many things can alter your reading.although the change may be small , folks still panic over it because they don't understand it.this is one of the reasons why i don't use test kits.i have learned over the years how to determine some things about a tank from the smell and taste of the water and how the fish are acting.


----------



## LizStreithorst (Aug 5, 2015)

Shoot. I've done "flopping on the bottom" WCs many many times. It's good during treatment. In with the good out with the bad...I age my water so the water coming in is what the fish are used to. Not all fish require daily WC but I do it on most of mine because what keeps Discus happy is good for all my fish except the guppies and anbatoids. I do 25% to 50% daily on all my tanks except the guppies and anabatiods. It depends on the stocking levels in my tanks. You can hugely overstock if you change enough water.


----------



## Elliott225 (Jan 9, 2014)

The way I learned using test kits was to rinse the tubes out with tap water first and store them upside down to drain and dry. When testing is needed I rinse the tubes in with tank water to be tested. Dip, fill, empty, three times. Fill to req. amount, add drops, cap, shake, and let stand a few minutes. Rinse with tap water and let dry.

Usually when I do a WC it's about 25%, except for the betta and then it's either 100% or 75%. 

I can't remember when I last had to treat a tank with meds. They only thing I add to the tanks is aquarium salt and/or buffers. I did earlier in the year have to dose the one tank with an algae control. Had to do something to get rid of the pea soup. 

With most illness, keeping to temperature at 78-80, great housekeeping, you will probably not have a problem. But, then again I don't buy a lot of fish, so that keeps a lot of problems out of my tanks.


----------

