# Nitrate Reduction



## cheseboy

Ok so this is what I want to do. 
I am attempting to setup a FOWLR aquarium that will evolve into a reef aquarium once I get the right experience (and Knowledge). Right now I have crushed coral (20 pounds) a Wet/Dry filter and a 55 gallon Protein Skimmer and a tiny spare powerhead to spread out the heat from the heater I have. I was talking to one of my uncles (he's giving me wet/dry and Skimmer) and he was saying I won't be able to support corals in my tank even eventually because I'll have a nitrate problem. He said putting a deep sand bed will displace alot of my water but will make all the difference in nitrates. He said I would be fine in a Mini-reef with only corals because I won't have anything that will really cause a problem with high nitrates. How do mini-reefers keep nitrates down in an aquarium with corals and fish


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## LittlePuff

Live rock, live sand helps, but not necessary, over-skimming, lots of water movement, and refugiums. The wet-dry will produce alot of nitrates.


Kim


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## Guest

LittlePuff said:


> Live rock, live sand helps, but not necessary, over-skimming, lots of water movement, and refugiums. The wet-dry will produce alot of nitrates.
> Kim


May I ask, how and why you say that a wet/dry filter system will generate more Nitrates than other filtration system? If you could produce links to texts that supports this, I would be more than happy to consult them.

Curious...

Sponge


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## Guest

cheseboy said:


> Ok so this is what I want to do.
> I am attempting to setup a FOWLR aquarium that will evolve into a reef aquarium once I get the right experience (and Knowledge). Right now I have crushed coral (20 pounds) a Wet/Dry filter and a 55 gallon Protein Skimmer and a tiny spare powerhead to spread out the heat from the heater I have. I was talking to one of my uncles (he's giving me wet/dry and Skimmer) and he was saying I won't be able to support corals in my tank even eventually because I'll have a nitrate problem. He said putting a deep sand bed will displace alot of my water but will make all the difference in nitrates. He said I would be fine in a Mini-reef with only corals because I won't have anything that will really cause a problem with high nitrates. How do mini-reefers keep nitrates down in an aquarium with corals and fish


You kind of have the whole thing in reverse my friend. First, you won't be able to have any corals if you have Nitrates. You will always have Nitrates in your tank unless you put a live sand bed in there with at least 1 pound of Live Rocks per gal of water. Just cyclling your tank with the live rocks will take you about 2 to 3 months. The skimmer will also help reduce the Nitrates and is a MUST. But your skimmer will take about a month to break in and work properly. In the mean time, the only thing you can do to reduce your Nitrates is to change water. 10-15% at a time and test every 2 days. If you have NO FISH in there, then let it be. Let the tank cycle by itself and don't change water. You would slow down the process. If you have fish, then you must change water in order to protect your fish.

In order to keep corals, you will need to have your nitrates down to less than 0.5ppm. Of course, zero is the target. In marine aquaria, the word of order is PATIENCE. So don't rush to your LFS to buy corals the day you find your Nitrates at zero. Wait at least a week and monitor each day. If it's stable, than you have a chance of success. Start with ONE hardy coral with little requirement. Also... don't forget that you will need a LOT of lighting in there to sustain coral life. At least 2 watts per gal... and that's a bare minimum. You should target over 4W per gal. Some corals require up to 10W per gal. 

A reef is cool but it costs a BUNDLE and then some.

Good luck and PATIENCE,

Sponge


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## Reefneck

SpongeBob said:


> May I ask, how and why you say that a wet/dry filter system will generate more Nitrates than other filtration system?Sponge


This is a well known fact! The Bio media (Balls or ??) with trap detritus and other "crap" that will produce nitrates! This is why 95% of people will tell you to take out the Bio Balls from a Wet/Dry. My reef is proof of this fact because I had nitrate problems until I replaced the Wet/Dry with my refugium and now....No problems.


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## LittlePuff

HOB, cannister, wet-dry, none contain the bacteria that breaks nitrates in saltwater into harmless gases. Their cycle stops at nitrates and creates more for your live rock/live sand to deal with. The skimmer takes the waste out of the water before it goes through the cycle.


Kim


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## LittlePuff

sorry, double post.


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## cheseboy

SpongeBob said:


> You kind of have the whole thing in reverse my friend. First, you won't be able to have any corals if you have Nitrates. You will always have Nitrates in your tank unless you put a live sand bed in there with at least 1 pound of Live Rocks per gal of water. Just cyclling your tank with the live rocks will take you about 2 to 3 months. The skimmer will also help reduce the Nitrates and is a MUST. But your skimmer will take about a month to break in and work properly. In the mean time, the only thing you can do to reduce your Nitrates is to change water. 10-15% at a time and test every 2 days. If you have NO FISH in there, then let it be. Let the tank cycle by itself and don't change water. You would slow down the process. If you have fish, then you must change water in order to protect your fish.
> 
> In order to keep corals, you will need to have your nitrates down to less than 0.5ppm. Of course, zero is the target. In marine aquaria, the word of order is PATIENCE. So don't rush to your LFS to buy corals the day you find your Nitrates at zero. Wait at least a week and monitor each day. If it's stable, than you have a chance of success. Start with ONE hardy coral with little requirement. Also... don't forget that you will need a LOT of lighting in there to sustain coral life. At least 2 watts per gal... and that's a bare minimum. You should target over 4W per gal. Some corals require up to 10W per gal.
> 
> A reef is cool but it costs a BUNDLE and then some.
> 
> Good luck and PATIENCE,
> 
> Sponge


How am I supose to put a live sand bed and live rock in there? I would have like no water left. It may be fine in big tanks but in smaller nano-tanks you'd have not much water. Actually I have Marine bio-Spira also.


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## TheOldSalt

YES!
Congratulations! By Jove, I think you've got it! Nanos are nothing but trouble for this and many other reasons.

So, how to get rid of nitrate?
First get rid of the crushed coral and wet/dry filter . 
Both = nitrate city, baby! The crushed coral lets too much oxygen through it and traps too much junk, and the wet/dry works too well as a nitrifier, producing more than your tank can hope to eliminate.

Live sand and live rock, coupled with heavy skimming, can go a long way toward retarding nitrate buildup & elimination. Denitrator units, aggravating little anaerobic coil thingies, can also get rid of it.
As for the live sand, instead of a DSB (deep sand bed) you could use just one inch of sand over a plenum. 

The best way is to use an ecosystem filtration system, which uses macroalgae to remove all nitrogenous waste while also doing a lot of other stuff. This is done in a separate sump. You won't need any live rock or sand at all with one of those, but you would need an extra set of lights which would be on 24/7. A ten gallon tank, with some modification, would work fine as the algal sump for a 20gal tank. 

Your current setup will not be able to sustain any but the hardiest corals, and even then it won't make them happy.


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## Guest

So you guys are really "Berlin types". I tend to be as well. But still fail to see how a wet/dry filter will produce more Nitrates than other filters. I mean, you say that they trap detritus that result in Nitrates at the end of the nitrifying cycle. Ok, that is true. But, the only thing that will reduce the amount of detritus is by extration. Now, wether you extract them with a canister/HOB/wet/dry doesn't really matter now, does it? On the other hand, like it was said, a skimmer will remove those organic BEFORE degradation begins. Now, that is another story. But if I recall right, I did say that a skimmer is a MUST in order to reduce Nitrates. LR will use the Nitrates and get rid of them. That's why we need so much of them.

Now don't get me wrong here. I fully agree with what was said about the process leading to Nitrates. What I don't agree with is the dismissal of a filter instead of simply saying that maintenance is a must to remove the detritus trapped in the filter. Of course, after the tank is cycled, stable and well established, you could recycle the canister filter into a small office trash can and use the motor and impeller as a micro-cooling fan. LOL Your LR + Skimmer will take care of your tank.

And yes, nano tanks are not really a viable solution... certainly not for coral keeping. FOWLR maybe... but even then. It will be and probably always will be unstable and can crash on you any time for any reason.

My 2¢

Sponge


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## TheOldSalt

The wet/dry is a nitrification machine. It's made to be a nitrification machine.
It's very, very good at it's job.

Alas, it's not made to be a de-nitrification machine.

Even worse, while nitrification is a fairly rapid process, de-nitrification isn't. A tank with a wet/dry in use will invariably produce far more nitrate in a given time than it will be able to eliminate, with nitrate buildup the inevitable result.

That said, the relative sizes of the nitrification & de-nitrification systems make a huge difference in the way the balance tips. Sure, it's possible to de-nitrify faster than you nitrify, but considering how the liverock & livesand also nitrify anyway, why bother with a wet/dry? The oxygen consumption of a wet/dry is enormous, ( even though it also brings some in ) and that oxygen would be better spent on the rock & sand for a better balance.

I don't even know why they still make wet/drys. Oh, right..because people still buy them. That'll change someday, I predict. I haven't used one in over a decade, and I've never looked back since.


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## cheseboy

TheOldSalt said:


> YES!
> Congratulations! By Jove, I think you've got it! Nanos are nothing but trouble for this and many other reasons.
> 
> So, how to get rid of nitrate?
> First get rid of the crushed coral and wet/dry filter .
> Both = nitrate city, baby! The crushed coral lets too much oxygen through it and traps too much junk, and the wet/dry works too well as a nitrifier, producing more than your tank can hope to eliminate.
> 
> Live sand and live rock, coupled with heavy skimming, can go a long way toward retarding nitrate buildup & elimination. Denitrator units, aggravating little anaerobic coil thingies, can also get rid of it.
> As for the live sand, instead of a DSB (deep sand bed) you could use just one inch of sand over a plenum.
> 
> The best way is to use an ecosystem filtration system, which uses macroalgae to remove all nitrogenous waste while also doing a lot of other stuff. This is done in a separate sump. You won't need any live rock or sand at all with one of those, but you would need an extra set of lights which would be on 24/7. A ten gallon tank, with some modification, would work fine as the algal sump for a 20gal tank.
> 
> Your current setup will not be able to sustain any but the hardiest corals, and even then it won't make them happy.


I understand but how would 1 inch of live sand over a plenum do anything to nitrates. I thought all that would do is convert nitrite into nitrate because it is not deep enugph causing the right conditions for de-nitrifying bacteria to grow.


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## Reefneck

O.T.

Sorry to go off topic but I now understand my teenage daughter a little better and understand that she knows everything and I know nothing. From now on, I will bow to her greatness.


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## Guest

Don't want to burst anyone's balloun here but since when do we have bacteria that denitrify NITRATES??? That's a new one to me.

The point I am trying to make is that no mater what you do, Nitrates will be produced in your tank wether you like it or not. Now, live rock will consume that Nitrate IF you have it in enough quantity and IF you monitor your tank, and IF you do water changes on a regular basis, and IF you have a good protein skimmer and IF you have a good clean up crew ( snails, cucumbers and such detritus hungry critters )...

Now, in order to produce Nitrates, you need Nitrites to begin with. Nitrates do not generate themselves.

*Oldy * : Please explain to me HOW a wet/dry can PRODUCE more nitrate than another FILTER given BOTH are well maintained and cleaned on a regular basis? I'm not arguing with you bro... I just want to make sure I get what you really mean. Now you already told me that bioballs and whatnot trap detritus which in turn, lead to Nitrates. Of course, I totally agree with you. But between you and me, that is a lack of maintenance. Not really a FAULT in the filter or media by itself.

Waiting for your thoughts guys. I really like this topic. Kudos to all!!!

Sponge


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## goodie

> Don't want to burst anyone's balloun here but since when do we have bacteria that denitrify NITRATES??? That's a new one to me.


Anaerobic Bacteria


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## Reefneck

goodie said:


> Anaerobic Bacteria


EXACTLY! But look out....You will get an argument about that too!


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## cheseboy

Well I have another question now. Where do you guys get base sand from? I have heard you can get only Argonite based sands. Do you get cheap sand from the hardware store or get the expensive stuff from your LFS?


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## Guest

goodie said:


> Anaerobic Bacteria


Duh! I meant in a filter, not in a sand bed or live rock.



LakeMalawiXpert said:


> EXACTLY! But look out....You will get an argument about that too!


What exactly do you mean by that statement? :?: 



cheseboy said:


> Well I have another question now. Where do you guys get base sand from? I have heard you can get only Argonite based sands. Do you get cheap sand from the hardware store or get the expensive stuff from your LFS?


No my friend... beach sand is not the way to go here. You can buy Aragonite Reef sand (50%) and top it with Arag-Alive sand (%50) to colonize the sand you have at the bottom. Rule of thumb is about 1 pound of sand per gallon. Opinion and preferences may vary.

Hope that helps a bit,

Sponge


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## LittlePuff

Salt Water bacteria and/or critters convery nitrates into harmless gasses. There is no equivalent in freshwater. A "normal" filter will not remove nitrates. A skimmer helps alot with that. The rest of the nitrates that are in your aquarium are taken care of by live rock and live sand. Why would anyone want to make more nitrates than their live roc/sand can handle?

Most others use playsand from Home Depot or Lowe's. Then seed it to make it "live"


Kim


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## goodie

> May I ask, how and why you say that a wet/dry filter system will generate more Nitrates than other filtration system? If you could produce links to texts that supports this, I would be more than happy to consult them.




http://www.tfhmagazine.com/default.aspx?pageid=286

This is from the above link:
So why the controversy over trickle-down systems? Indeed, didn't I just mention that these systems are very efficient biological filters? Well, that's the crux of the problem as some reefkeepers see it. You see, trickle filters do an outstanding job of producing the final byproduct of nitrification: nitrate. However, nitrate, while relatively innocuous in the fish-only system, can be harmful to sessile invertebrates, even in low concentrations, in the mini-reef. Since trickle systems do not provide a mechanism for denitrification, the aquarist must rely on frequent partial water changes (a good idea anyway) and/or denitrifying resins to eliminate nitrate from the system.



> Duh! I meant in a filter, not in a sand bed or live rock.


I guess I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, I guess.


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## redpaulhus

Sponge - there are a number of very good books that discuss this.

I believe Martin Moe discussed it in both "The Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder" and "The Marine Aquarium Reference: Systems and Invertebrates" (back in the late 80's early90's when people first started noticing this) I think John Tullock covered it in "The Natural Reef Aquarium" and Fenner in The Concientious Marine Aquarist. Likewise, I think Anthony Calfo talks about it in the Book of Coral Propagation.

As TOS mentioned above - its all about efficiency. In my experience liverock can handle a signifigant bio-filtration load, and since it filters at a "less efficient" rate than a trickle filter AND may support anerobes inside the rock, it promotes lower levels of nitrate because the anerobes are converting much of the nitrate as fast as it is created (assuming enough liverock).

On the other hand - a big ol trickly filter absolutely rocks when we're talking about retail or wholesale fish keeping or culture situations (especially FW) since it processes large amounts of dissolved ammonia very quickly (ie fish delivery day) with very little lag time. There are a few 'nitrate removing' filter designs, such as the original "wet" part of the early wet/dry filters, the Calfo "dsb bucket" design, and numerious slow trickle nitrate reators.

Personally - I think proper nutrient export mechanisms are possibly more important than the actual nitrification method. Using skimmers to remove organics before they break down into nitrogenous waste, and refugiums to bind phosphate and nitrogen into living tissues that can be removed (cheatomorpha, xenia, etc) from the system completely, mean less nitrogenous waste - which means less _potential_ nitrates.

Randy Holmes-Farley spoke about this (nitrate reduction strategies) at Macna 2004 (I missed his talk, they had 3 speakers going at all times so I had to pick and choose). Here's his article on Nitrate in Reef tanks:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm


Rob Toonen did some really cool research with shallow and deep sandbeds (and different particle sizes). This is some of the only truly "scientific" studies I've seen on sandbed nitrification (I'd like to see somebody do this on trickle filters, but as TOS noted, they are soooo 1994)
(I especially found the results interesting, and I love Rob's summary for part 1 of the report, especially point # 3  )
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/6/aafeature/
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/7/aafeature/


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## TheOldSalt

AARRGH!!!!

After spending about 35 minutes writing a huge & detailed explantion of everything, I decided to check out the links that redpaulhus provided for any more pertinent info. They were very interesting, but then my computer locked up and my whole post was lost.
dang. I was really proud of that post, too.
*sigh* 
I'm sorry, what was the question again?
You know what? I'm too mad to write all of that again.

As the articles redpaulhus provided, the Plenum system & the DSB systems provide fairly equal end results, with the plenums being a tiny bit superior in most respects, but the main difference is size. A DSB wastes 4 more inches of tank space than a plenum system to acheive the same end.

Cheseboy, a DSB would be a pretty goofy thing to use in your tank, so you'd want an inchdeep plenum system instead. Since that's all you'd use, it would have to be all real livesand, NOT dry playsand.

I'll have to come back to this.


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## Guest

WOW Redpaulhus! Now that's what I call supplying information. I can not thank you enough for all those links. I will make sure to read them all. Before I do so, I'd like to check a few things with you guys so that we all know where we stand here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1. In any given system, Nitrates will be produced in direct proportion to the detritus/organic matter/fish metabolism end product present in it.

2. Some filtration systems are speedier in converting nitrites to nitrates. Ultimately, any adequate filtration system will convert all the nitrites into nitrates.

3. Live Rock and Live Sand will denitrify the nitrates with anaerobic bacteria.

4. The rate at which this operation will occur depends on the amount of LR + LS in the system, given the fact that anaerobic bacteria dwell in both locations.

5. The only mechanical/electrical device that will reduce the production of Nitrates is a protein skimmer.

So, if all the above is true, the only problem with a trickle filter is that it will denitrify Nitrites into Nitrates at a much higher rate than any other filter and MAY cause a surge in the system if not backed up with sufficient LR and LS?

If that is the point that everyone is trying to make, then I must have not expressed myself clearly because I do think the same thing. I will admit to you that I was not aware that trickle down filters were so much more efficient than other filtration systems. 

Anyway, please correct me if anything that I said above is not correct. In the mean time, I will go read the links provided by redpaulhus and come back with my comments.

Cheers!

Sponge


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## TheOldSalt

That's pretty much it, save for a few very minor details.

#1-- pretty much correct. The other factors are temperature, water flow rate, the number of nitrifying bacteria present, the attachment surfaces for them, and the amount of oxygen present for them to use.

#2- correct. Trickle filters give the bacteria a LOT of extra oxygen to work with, and this makes the trickle filter an absolute nitrate machine.

#3- correct, or more precisely, with _facultatively_ anaerobic/aerobic bacteria. In a LOW oxygen environment they efficiently tear apart nitrate to strip it of it's oxygen, resulting in mere nitrogen as an end product. In a NO oxygen environment, their efficiency is greatly compromised, and a lot of their effor is wasted just trying to survive. This results in incomplete denitrification, or _reduction_, with nitrite & ammonia being the end products.

#4- as correct as #1 was; there are other factors involved

#5- Skimmers remove organics from the water before they have a chance to break down into ammonia in the first place, thereby reducing nitrate buildup by reducing all nitrogenous waste buildup.

Finally, NO2-> NO3 = nitrification. NO3->NO2 = reduction. NO3->N2 = DEnitrification

Yes, a trickle filter is a high-performance nitrifier which produces nitrate at a much faster rate than the de-nitrifiers can remove it. There is no MAY to it; it's GONNA happen. The reason is one of simple flow rate. Nitrification happens in high-oxygen zones which have good water flow. DE-nitrification happens in low-oxygen zones typified by _very slow_ water flow. Since the two zones cannot process anywhere near the same amount of water in any given time, the faster zone wins the race, and that means nitrate buildup.

The elimination of the trickle filter, coupled with skimming, brings the two opposing sides to a much closer balance.

The bioballs & crushed coral allow too much oxygen through them, hence their poor ability to work in DEnitrification. Live sand greatly retards water flow through it, and therefore works great as a denitrifying substrate.
All the work is done in a narrow zone only about an inch thick. The plenum space below the sand gives the water somewhere to GO, enabling better diffusion. Deep Sand Beds ultimately give the same end result, but they do it much less efficiently, wasting a lot of space and time by repeatedly reducing, re-nitrifying, and re-denitrifying whereas the plenum system does it all in one pass.


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## Fishfirst

I think this is sticky worthy, lots of argumentation and scientific evidence to back it up! Also great explinations from the bulk of the experts here! I've been waiting to sticky something in the general section for a long time... now I think I've found one


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## Guest

TheOldSalt said:


> Finally, NO2-> NO3 = nitrification. NO3->NO2 = reduction. NO3->N2 = DEnitrification


Please allow me to correct these reactions.

NO2 -> NO3 = Oxydation from this equation

NO2- + H2O >>> NO3- + 2 H+ 
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NO3 -> NO2 = Oxydo-reduction
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NO3 -> N2 = Another oxydo-reduction


Now, back to your post about the different reaction time of oxydation and reduction in relation to the bacteria involved and there process, I thank you for explaining it to me. It makes a lot of sense and therefore, I totally agree with you that a trickle filter will ultimately shift the balance in favor of the production of Nitrates.

After carefully reading the article kindly submitted by redpaulhus, I realised even more that Berlin systems are the way to go. Any given filter will impair the reduction of Nitates simply but not solely because of the different location at which Nitrates are produced and transformed. If you leave it to the LR to take care of ALL the process... along with the live sand bed, you will reach an equilibrium in the production and reduction. 

So bottom line, and please correct me if I'm wrong, your filter, whatever it is has its place ( and even then, it's debatable ) in the first month or 2 of your tank. After that, it's just a waste of energy and also a thorn in your side since it will produce Nitrate at a more rapid rate than the LR and LS can handle.

I left the protein skimmer out of the "equation" since we all seem to agree that it is a MUST and plays an important role in any marine aquarium by preventing organic matter from starting the process which ends with Nitrates.

Your opinion?

Sponge


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## Fishfirst

> I left the protein skimmer out of the "equation" since we all seem to agree that it is a MUST and plays an important role in any marine aquarium by preventing organic matter from starting the process which ends with Nitrates.


not all systems, actually the ecology method frowns upon the use of skimmers... and on small systems, you can make enough water changes (as my neighbor does to his 55 gal marine tank) to keep nitrates in check instead... it isn't a must, but it is very handy in most systems...


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## TheOldSalt

BINGO!!!!
You have it down pat, Spongehead. Er, Spongebob. ( _ I've been watching way too much "Alien Nation" lately _)

heh, heh.. I knew you were a chemist who understood the reactions fully, but I posted those simplified definitions for the benefit of others who didn't. Thanks for filling in some of the blanks. I just wanted to club you over the head with the definitions one more time so they would stick.

Mechanical filter which are very regularly cleaned serve a good purpose in a reef tank, in that they trap wastes for easy removal. You probably noticed by now that nearly all trickle filters and overflow boxes have sponge prefilters on them to allow for easy DAILY cleaning. in that regard they're great, but don't let a mechanical filter become a biological filter by going too long between cleanings.

By the way, I'm betting you know, in regard to all of this, what happens if you use ozone with the skimmer?

One more quiz question for everybody:
Early in this thread it was mentioned that none of this stuff happens in a freshwater tank. That's pretty much true. Does anyone here know why that is? The biggest clue has already been revealed in this thread a few times, so use it in conjunction with one of the most fundamental differences between freshwater & saltwater to figure out the answer.


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## Guest

Hum... Ozone. That is a very unstable molecule. I would say it would help oxidize the proteins, release O2 in the system, plus sending negative oxygen ions in the water column which would probably lead to a binding with positive hydrogen ions forming OH-, thus raising the pH... 

That's about it from the top of my head. I would need to read about it or maybe a certain Old Salty personage would come and enlighten me further? Who knows??? I hear that such a personage lurks in the "dark side" of this forum... :shock: 

Cheers mate!

Sponge ( aka Spongehead ) LMAO


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## leveldrummer

ok what the heck are you guys talking about?? haha, so you are saying trickle filters, (sumps that contain bio-balls and such?) are actually bad for your tank??


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## leveldrummer

fyi... THIS SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BEGINER SECTION!!! THIS IS NOT BEGINER STUFF...


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## LittlePuff

Yes, it is. Which equipment to purchase is a newbee question. I'd rather know before I start buying, than find out later that I bought alot of useless, expensive equipment. I've been researchimg for 2 years, I'm glad I didn't go with the equipment that I was told to. It's saving me alot of work, money, and time.


Kim


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## Guest

LittlePuff said:


> Yes, it is. Which equipment to purchase is a newbee question. I'd rather know before I start buying, than find out later that I bought alot of useless, expensive equipment. I've been researchimg for 2 years, I'm glad I didn't go with the equipment that I was told to. It's saving me alot of work, money, and time.
> 
> 
> Kim


Amen Kim !

:-D


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## TheOldSalt

LOL!

Sorry if it makes your brain hurt, leveldrummer.

It is beginner stuff, though. This is the very kind of stuff that every saltwater hobbyist has to know, and if they all knew it from the beginning, they'd all be a lot more successful. The "why" behind the "what" is sometimes even more important than the "what," because it keeps people from making big mistakes due to a lack of understanding. There's not so much room for error in a salt tank, ya know.

Oh, and yes, trickle filters are bad for your reef tank. They're great for fish-only tanks, though.

Ozone does all the stuff Spongebob mentioned, plus one thing he didn't, since we're on the subject of nitrate: It makes nitrate. Being an oxidizer, it oxidizes ammonia into nitrite, and then turns nitrite into nitrate. Ozone can conceivably replace the need for bacteria in your system completely as far as nitrification goes, BUT it can't de-nitrify at all, and it can possibly even interfere with de-nitrification because...
because...

ah, well, now you have another clue to use in your quest to figure out why freshwater tanks don't employ denitrification. 

Ozone is great; don't get me wrong. It's just that if your goal is major-league denitrification, this useful tool can cause you some grief if overused.


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## Fishfirst

denitrification is anaerobic, and ozone creates more o2 in the water, thus hindering denitrification? Although I'm not sure that anaerobic conditions aren't able to happen in freshwtater... actually I think they do... but thats my best guess heheh


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## leveldrummer

so if i was going with a sump system on my new reef tank. i should just go with a common tank, skimmer, heater, maybe a power filter, and a pump to return the water? there is no need (actually harmfull) to go buy one of those super pricey kits with all that "jazz" in it??


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## LittlePuff

YES!!

Kim


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## TheOldSalt

You got it, Fishfirst. Freshwater holds a lot more dissolved oxygen in it than saltwater, which results in too much oxygen getting to all parts of the tank and it's systems to allow for any useful denitrification. You _could_ build a super-huge deep sump or something to try to make it work, but it would probably have to be bigger than the tank itself. 
Heavy ozone use in a saltwater tank can also hinder the process if the ORP gets too high, but of course by then you've probably got other problems. It depends on how much the system as a whole is allowed to "breathe." ( ventilation, circulation, aeration )


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## Fishfirst

YES! I GOT IT! WHOOOOH! What do I win????


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