# Ich and RED Spots?



## Flying Unagi

I started my original posting under the Goldfish section before I realized there was a Diseases section, so here goes:

I suspected ich in my goldfish tank (55g) three days ago and started them on Kordon's Rid Ich+ about two days ago (first treatment was Wednesday, 6/1). They've gone through two doses so far (one every 24 hours, with a partial water change in between as recommended on the bottle), but the number of ich spots just seem to increase, not decrease. Yesterday I also noticed a number of RED spots on the body and fins along with the ich - they seem to be under the skin and some are as small as grains of sand while others are blotchier.

QUESTIONS:
- What could the red spots be? (see pictures) Are they a part of the ich? If not, should I wait until I clear the ich before treating these or treat them at the same time?
- Is it safe to use aquarium salt WHILE I'm using the Rid Ich+?
- How long should I wait before deciding a treatment isn't effective? Tank's temperature is 77 F.
- How do you know when fish medication is "old"? I just bought the bottle of Rid Ich+, but I didn't realize it was copyrighted 2004 until after using it. No expiration date listed. Could it be that the bottle is too old?

Please help! I've never had any diseases in my tank before.


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## Flying Unagi

PLEASE HELP!

Two of my goldfish now have fin rot and all four of them are sitting together in a line in the corner of the tank. Their tail fins are very ragged, their dorsal fins are beginning to disintegrate, I see red streaks, red spots, and the ich is STILL there. They are not responsive to tapping on the glass and their appetites have decreased.

I've done FOUR treatments of Rid Ich+ since Wednesday night, and have seen no improvement, just things getting worse. I thought maybe it was because I didn't get all the carbon out of the filter and cleaned it again this morning (I had gotten about 90% of it out the first time - one filter pad was 4 weeks old and the other one was 3 months old). Today's treatment didn't help at all and the fins are getting worse. Is it time to switch to a new medication?? 

Can I put Melafix into the tank to stop the fins from rotting away WHILE continuing ich treatment?? Can I also add salt in addition to both medications??

I don't think they're going to make it for much longer.


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## emc7

red lines sound like septicemia, a bacteria infection often acquired as a secondary infection when fish are sick with something. If a med isn't working, you should do a huge water change and try something else. Some 'ichs' are resistant to some meds. Go read fine print on med maker's web pages to see what you can use together.


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## Mr. fish

Gram negative and gram positive combined treatment...

Maracyn 1 and 2 combined... When combining the two, use half the recommended dose to accommodate for the other


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## Flying Unagi

I woke up this morning and found my oranda with her tail stuck in the filter. She was dead. I'd only had her for 16 days. 

On Sunday (6/5), I decided to take a different course of action. Throughout the course of the day, I raised the temperature of the tank from 78 to about 83 and started doing the salt treatment (1 tsp aquarium salt per 1 gallon of water). I also stopped using the Rid Ich+ and added some Melafix. Yesterday night was the third and last salt treatment (3 treatments every 12 hours) and I also began dosing with Pimafix. About 95% of the ich spots have gone away, and now I'm just doing 25% PWC to vacuum the gravel for ich that's dropped off and to bring the ammonia down (yesterday it was at .5 - I believe because of leftover food and slime coat?). With every PWC, I re-add the appropriate amount of salt and Melafix/Pimafix that is taken out with the water. I've also removed most of the decorations in the tank and dropped them into a bucket of hot (140 F) water to sterilize them and stopped feeding.

My three remaining goldfish are still huddled together in a corner of the tank, are breathing heavily (but not gasping at the surface), and the biggest one still has a bunch of fuzzy-looking white stuff on him. It LOOKS like a fungus growth, but I can't tell if it's columnaris or saprolegnia. Or maybe it's excess slime?

I've also been thinking (from their advanced conditions) that Maracyn should be the way to go, as emc7 suggested.

SHOULD I wait a couple more days to see if things improve, switch to just Maracyn, or do both Maracyn with Pimafix and Melafix? I know the latter two are organic, and have read about a lot of people using it in conjunction with other treatments.

Mr. Fish - Thank you so much for sticking through this with me for the last week. You and emc7 have been extremely helpful, and I really hope the rest of my fish pull through. I was very excited to be getting my new 55g so I could provide a better home for my three fish and even more excited when I got my oranda as a gift. Now every time I come home, I'm dreading what I might find.


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## Flying Unagi

Mr. fish said:


> Gram negative and gram positive combined treatment...
> 
> Maracyn 1 and 2 combined... When combining the two, use half the recommended dose to accommodate for the other


Came back from work and bought Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2. Mr. Fish, if I don't know exactly what type of bacteria my fish have, wouldn't it be safer to use the full dosage of both?

I've decided to stop the Melafix and Pimafix treatments until the fish get better. If Maracyn is the stronger antibiotic, then I'd rather dose with that alone than risk death by overmedication. Also included a couple pictures below, but I'm afraid the quality isn't very good at that resolution. I have no idea what all that white stuff on them is - or the black spots that started to appear. It doesn't look "cottony" enough to be columnaris, but it could be fin rot on the body? I guess then it wouldn't be called fin rot anymore...


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## Flying Unagi

So I took another look at my fish this evening and I'm suspecting velvet now. There are small white spots all over my fish again, but unlike the bigger, more distinct ich spots, it looks like someone spread a very light dusting of powdered sugar over them. I've attached another picture for reference, but it's really hard to see.

So...presently, I'm trying to (still) get rid of ich, treating for secondary bacterial infections, and might also have more parasites. What should be the priority for treatment if it turns out it IS velvet? I've read enough this last week to know that all three are fatal if left untreated (or treated incorrectly) for long. And I've already lost one fish since I noticed anything strange 7 days ago.

EDIT: Tested water parameters again tonight:
Ammonia: 0.75
Nitrite: 0.25
Nitrate: 5.0

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? I haven't had ANY ammonia or nitrite readings for over 6 months, have been doing 25% PWC weekly for the last 9 months, and daily 25% PWC for the last 7 days.


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## Mr. fish

Man, your fish are doing really bad.
It appears a bad bacteria broke out and spread throughout your tank.

Yes, you may be correct on *Velvet.*

Velvet finds a fish and adheres using flagellum, then forms rod pseudopodia which penetrate the skin and soft tissues of the gills. The pseudopods destroy the cells and feed on the nutrients inside. After feeding and maturing, the parasite drops off the fish and divides into dozens of cells that are released into the water to seek hosts. They must find a host within 24 hours, or die.

If in fact you are positive it is Velvet, you need to disregard maracyn and act fast! (Funland can tell you all about this horrible disease) Dim the lights for several days, dose Copper Sulphate and discontinue carbon filtration for 10 days.

Make sure you have plenty of air bubbles in the tank aswell and cut back on feeding.

The only thing I can think of why your tank is producing ammonia and nitrite again is somehow you caused a mini cycle. Maybe too many water changes? 1 every day is not recommended.. Every time you PWC, you disturb the ben. bacteria. You need to wait a day or two so they can multiply again and keep up with the bio load.


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## Flying Unagi

Mr. fish said:


> Man, your fish are doing really bad.
> It appears a bad bacteria broke out and spread throughout your tank.


I know.  I noticed the ich pretty quickly, but the fin rot and red dots/lines (I'm guessing bacterial) settled in really quickly after that. Literally 2 days from noticing the ich.



Mr. fish said:


> Yes, you may be correct on *Velvet.*
> 
> Velvet finds a fish and adheres using flagellum, then forms rod pseudopodia which penetrate the skin and soft tissues of the gills. The pseudopods destroy the cells and feed on the nutrients inside. After feeding and maturing, the parasite drops off the fish and divides into dozens of cells that are released into the water to seek hosts. They must find a host within 24 hours, or die.


Since Velvet is caused by a parasite, would the heat and salt treatment also work? It *seems* to have helped the ich, and the tank is still being treated for it. I plan to keep the temperature up for another 7 days, for a full 10 days of treatment since my it doesn't look like it's causing my fish too much additional stress.



Mr. fish said:


> If in fact you are positive it is Velvet, you need to disregard maracyn and act fast! (Funland can tell you all about this horrible disease) Dim the lights for several days, dose Copper Sulphate and discontinue carbon filtration for 10 days.


I'm not positive. I'll check on my fish again when I get home. Already did a 50% PWC last night to remove the Melafix/Pimafix and added Maracyn I and II, though...I'd hate to do another PWC and start them on another regimen since they've already had partial treatments from Rid Ich+ and the Melafix/Pimafix combo. Let's REALLY hope it's not Velvet. 



Mr. fish said:


> Make sure you have plenty of air bubbles in the tank aswell and cut back on feeding.


My biggest fish stopped eating, one eats only when hand-fed, and the last eats only when the food is close by.



Mr. fish said:


> The only thing I can think of why your tank is producing ammonia and nitrite again is somehow you caused a mini cycle. Maybe too many water changes? 1 every day is not recommended.. Every time you PWC, you disturb the ben. bacteria. You need to wait a day or two so they can multiply again and keep up with the bio load.


I was doing so many water changes because I was trying to vacuum all the ich from the substrate and for the first 4-5 days, Rid Ich+ recommended PWC before each treatment. With the Maracyn, I won't have to do another water change for 6 days. Definitely will keep an eye on those ammonia and nitrite levels, though. If they start to climb, water change?


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## Mr. fish

Yes, the warmer water will help. I don't recommend salt in Freshwater tanks tho.. No matter what the facts say.

I think the Rid Ich+ destroyed your ben bacteria.. Some medications do that. Melafix and Maracyn don't. While dosing the maracyn, your tank shouldn't climb too high in Ammonia unless you are feeding too often. Cut back on feeding tremendously.

Hopefully everything works out, me personally I would probably take the maracyn back and exchange for Copper Sulfate. Didn't realize you had velvet, maracyn doesn't work for that as far as I know.


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## Flying Unagi

UPDATE: Finished Day 4 of Maracyn I and II treatment last night. Fish *seem* to be doing better *knock on wood*. The white cottony-stuff went away after two treatments, as did the red spots and lines, and the sores have healed. No more clamped fins, and they're all swimming around at a slow pace (probably because the tank is so warm). Appetite is pretty good, too. I've been feeding them about 50% of what they usually eat since the tank's going through a mini cycle (ammonia = .25, nitrite = .25).

After finishing Day 5 of the Maracyn, can I stop, or should I continue treatment for an additional 5 days? The boxes say, "Repeat this 5 day treatment only once if needed". Even though they don't exhibit any more symptoms, I've heard that sometimes the bacterial infections come back if not treated for long enough.

The only signs that they went through something horrible are the black spots they're getting from healing and the shortened fins. The fins stopped rotting away and have begun to heal, too, but they haven't grown back to how they were before. They're no longer frayed, but are just shorter and more jagged-looking. Should I just let this be and hope they re-grow naturally, continue the Maracyn, or switch to something just to help fin re-growth, like back to Melafix/Pimafix?

ALSO, I am ONE Maracyn I packet short of finishing Day 5's treatment and don't want to spend $10 for another box of 8 packets. Would it be okay if I just added an extra packet of Maracyn II instead? I'm treating for 50 gallons (dropped the water level in my 55g for extra splash), so potentially, I would be missing about 10 gallons for the last Maracyn I treatment. Would this be risky in helping my fish recover, or should I just suck it up and buy an extra box just for that one packet?

Thanks!


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## Flying Unagi

Mr. fish said:


> Yes, the warmer water will help. I don't recommend salt in Freshwater tanks tho.. No matter what the facts say.
> 
> I think the Rid Ich+ destroyed your ben bacteria.. Some medications do that. Melafix and Maracyn don't. While dosing the maracyn, your tank shouldn't climb too high in Ammonia unless you are feeding too often. Cut back on feeding tremendously.
> 
> Hopefully everything works out, me personally I would probably take the maracyn back and exchange for Copper Sulfate. Didn't realize you had velvet, maracyn doesn't work for that as far as I know.


What I thought was Velvet actually went away after 2-3 treatments of the Maracyn! Now I don't know if that was actually due to the medication, or the heat/salt treatment, but I'm generally happy with the results so far. These guys should be done with the heat/salt treatment in 4-8 days, too, depending on their conditions next week.


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