# Discus is sluggish, not eating



## bmlbytes

My 7 inch discus appears to have a problem today. She is very sluggish, hanging out in the corner at the top of the tank. She does not appear to have any energy at all. There does not appear to have any visible problems, except a slight slime coming off of her. She refused to eat this morning, and is now more sluggish than ever.

*Aquarium stats:*
100g Acrylic aquarium
Two Marineland Magnum 350 canister filters
Aqueon Pro 250 Heater

*Other Fish:*
3 other discus, about 2.5 inches
2 German Blue Rams (1 Male, 1 Female)

*Current water conditions:*
87.5°F
0 Ammonia
0 Nitrite
15 Nitrate
6.8 pH
0 Calcium
3.5 °dKH (63 ppm KH)
10+ ppm Phosphate
*
Chemicals used in water change (100% RO water):*
_API Natural Trace Cichlid_
_Seachem Neutral Regulator_
_Seachem Discus Buffer_

Seachem products are used as 1 part neutral regulator to 2 parts discus buffer.

Water changes are performed 2 to 3 times a week, with 20% to 30% removed each time.

*Recent changes to the aquarium:*
2.5 weeks ago: Started changing water with reverse osmosis water. Removed air stones.
2 weeks ago: Added a second _Marineland Magnum 350_ filter to the tank
1.5 weeks ago: Started adding _Neutral Regulator_ and _Discus Buffer_ to the water
1 week ago: Added rocks to the aquarium. Added 3 discus (2.5 inches) to the tank.

*Known conditions with this fish:*
One gill cover does not close completely

*Final Notes:*
Today is the first day I have noticed anything wrong with her. Yesterday, she was acting a bit slow, but not abnormal. I did do a cleaning of the aquarium glass yesterday, but I used white vinegar and nothing else.

I have a full arsenal of medications and treatments. I just don't know where to start with this one. Can anyone offer any suggestions?


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## lohachata

i'm tellin ya...you are screwin with the water too much...take the temp to 90...quit adding so many chems...quit feeding for a few days..reduce lighting...treat for 3-4 days with Aquarisol..


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## lohachata

ok..i know....i'm nuts.....but what have you got to lose...


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## bmlbytes

Thanks loha. I did what you said. We'll see how it turns out.


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## snyderguy

That's what I was going to suggest that as well, less water changes. I have a planted tank so I did 50% once every other week and they're growing like weeds. You should see how fast they're growing, it's amazing.


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## lohachata

good luck bml...discus are a special fish...they aren't really any harder to do than other fish...but their beauty and grace endear them to us.....would hate to see you lose them pal..


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## bmlbytes

Thanks guys. She is still acting sluggish this morning. I think I'm going to stop using the pH buffers, and just use the Natural Trace. The buffers are contributing to an off the charts Phosphate level. I might need to use a phosphate free fertiliser for my plants though.


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## lohachata

are you using co2 ?.....that could be contributing to the problem.


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## Guest

Did you use the white vineger to clean inside the tank? That could be your problem. The reason why your discus is losing the slime coat is because of slime disease. I don't remember if there is any treatment for it or not.

When I clean the inside of my tanks, I don't use anything but a clean sponge and water. I use the same sponge all the time as to not introduce bad bacteria to the tanks.


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## snyderguy

Or you could try good old fashioned aquarium salt. That always helps my discus a lot


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## Guest

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/external/costia_parasite.shtml

Is this what your discus looks like? If so this is the disease that he has: Slime disease also known as Costia Parasite.


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## phlyergirl

Shifting pH will also lead to excess slime coat. I agree with not messing with your water so much.

Oh yeah, and if you used vinegar inside the tank, that's going to affect your pH a lot.


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## bmlbytes

There is no CO2 in this tank at all.

That picture does not look like her. It just looks like some clear stuff is hanging off of her. 

She is still hanging out at the top, acting very sluggish. She often lays on her side. 

White vinegar was used to clean the outside of the aquarium. A spray bottle was used, but there is no way even a significant amount could have entered the tank.

The pH has not changed at all in the last couple weeks. I have been adding the pH buffers, but have used the same dose each time, on RO water. 

Aquarium salt seems like a strange treatment, since discus prefer less TDS in their water typically. 

I have added a full dose of Aquarisol, and raised the temp as high as my heaters can go (about 88F). Yesterday, before I got any responses, I changed 20g of water, with no additives. The pH remained the same. 

I noticed that when she leaves her corner of the tank, she will scratch against rocks. A behavior I have seen fish with external parasites do in the past. I don't see any parasites, but maybe she is scratching to remove excess slime coat? It's hard to tell if she is producing too much slime coat, or losing the slime coat she has. 

I know that many of those slime coat products actually just irritate the fish's skin into producing more slime, so I wouldn't use that. However, I have heard that aloe vera gel could help in slime coat issues. Does anyone see any harm in trying it?


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## bmlbytes

Is methylene blue safe to use with copper treatments? I can move my plants out of the tank to treat with meth blue.


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## Guest

Not sure about the aloe vera. I will ask about it from a friend of mine who helped me with my clown loach when she was sick.

Another thing that I am thinking that your discus may have is swim bladder disease. Try giving her a pea and see if she swims better after she eats the pea. My clown loach was hanging at the top of the tank and not swimming right so I fed her a pea and she started feeling better. Keep feeding the peas until your discus doesn't hang at the top and she swims correctly.


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## Ladayen

Couple questions...

I'm not terribly familiar with PH adjusting products. Are the ones you're using meant to raise or lower the PH?

Do you still use some tap water with your water changes?

Where did the rocks come from?

As mentioned already I would recommend you do one large water change(50%) a week as opposed to several smaller ones.


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## bmlbytes

There are 2 pH products, designed to work together. One is a buffer that brings water to neutral and one lowers pH. Depending on the desired pH, you mix different ratios of them. 

No, I do not use tap water. The tap water here is horrible. Instead, I use a product that replaces trace minerals in the water to make it safe. 

Rocks came from an empty lot near my house. I live in Phoenix, so it is a dry dusty area. Rocks were sanitized with bleach and hot water. They were then rinsed extensively and dechlorinated. 

Right now, I only have the storage capacity for about 25 gallons of RO water. Also, I don't want to change the temperature of the water too much when I change it. I will be buying a heater for the RO water soon, but in the mean time, smaller changes will have to do.


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## snyderguy

What are your tap water parameters?


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## bmlbytes

Not home right now, but from what I remember:

8.4 pH
13 °dKH (232 ppm carbonate hardness)
280 ppm calcium

The tap water also tastes pretty bad. I usually use a Brita filter on my water. This water is not really something I want my fish in. People use 100% RO water all the time. It's just a matter of mixing in the correct electrolytes to make the water safe.


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## bmlbytes

BTW with the chemicals I was adding, I had the water conditions at optimal for discus. They are also fairly stable. Granted, I haven't had the water like that very long, but it did work as advertised. The only foreseeable problem was the phosphate level. How much phosphate do you need before it becomes poisonous? Surprisingly, algae is not crazy given the amount of phosphate and light in the tank (I had more when I had tap water and low light).


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## snyderguy

How is it doing now?


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## bmlbytes

Mostly unchanged. She does venture out of the corner sometimes now, but not very often. Usually when I stand by the tank. 

I had to turn the lights back on today. The plants are starting to be affected by the lack of light. I put a very large silk plant where she likes to hide, so the light wont be a problem. I fed the tank a very small amount of food today. All the other fish were very happy to have food, but she wasn't interested in the least. 

Looks like the Aquarisol isn't working. I am considering trying praziquantel (there are new discus in the tank) for internal parasites, or methylene blue for bacteria. Suggestions?


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## emc7

I don't consider meth blue an antibiotic, but it is good on fungus and ich. A good strong dose of meth blue will affect plants because it absorbs light and may change your pH.

Prazipro is easy to use and safe. Many people use in all Qt tanks. You could try a medicated food, but that only works if fish eat. You could try garlic on the food. It is supposed to stimulate appetite as well as harm internal parasites.

Most fish don't mind phosphate at all. But I have heard that "discus and angels don't like phosphates". But I think if the buffer were the issue, more than one fish would be affected. 

I can only advise you isolate the sick fish. Discus are too expensive to risk infecting the lot.

It could be a digestive issue. I had one angel that pigged out on frozen bloodworms and never ate again and eventually died. You could try "laxative" foods like peas and frozen daphnia, but again it can only help if the fish eats. If its a blocked or twisted intestine, you may lose this fish but it won't affect any others.


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## bmlbytes

Meth blue does have antibiotic properties, but I have a whole host of other meds. 

Praziquantel is only effective against internal parasizes, although, fish do stop eating when they get them. 

The other fish in the tank are fairly new, and young. They could have a different tolerance to phosphate than my big discus.

I can't isolate her. I have a QT tank, but its much to small for a 7 inch tall fish. 

I tried feeding peas and daphnia, but she wasnt interested in either.

Here are the medications I have. I know what each of them does, but I do not know what is safe to use together. Currently the tank has a full dose of Aquarisol, and a small dose of aquarium salt.

Here is what I have available:
Aquari-sol (copper treatment)
Praziquantel
Methylene Blue
API Ammo Lock
API Pimafix (Pimenta racemosa)
API Melafix (Melaleuca)
Aquarium Salt
Sentry AQ Maroxy (Stabilized chlorine oxides)
Sentry AQ Maracide (Malachite Green)
Sentry AQ Maracyn (Erythromycin)
Sentry AQ Maracyn Two (Minocycline)
Tetra Lifeguard (1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone)


Does anyone know if praziquantel is safe to use with copper medications?


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## emc7

Prazi also treats external flukes, but I don't think thats your issue. IME treating a tank with Prazi won't save fish that won't eat but will prevent other fish from getting worms. 

Not sure about mixing them. Web searches are unclear. Don't mix prazi with cupramine


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## snyderguy

I'm telling you, a water change and some aquarium salt is what I would start with. It wouldn't hurt to move her to a QT tank. Is her forehead or stomach pretty thin when you look at her from the front?


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## Fishpunk

bmlbytes said:


> The tap water here is horrible.


No it isn't. It's great for keeping African rift lake cichlids and for livebearers. It's horrible for keeping soft water fish and for drinking.


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## bmlbytes

snyderguy said:


> I'm telling you, a water change and some aquarium salt is what I would start with. It wouldn't hurt to move her to a QT tank. Is her forehead or stomach pretty thin when you look at her from the front?


I already did this. I have a QT tank, but it is much too small for my discus (the only fish I have that would be too large for it). She is not thin in any direction.





Fishpunk said:


> No it isn't. It's great for keeping African rift lake cichlids and for livebearers. It's horrible for keeping soft water fish and for drinking.


Well, yeah. But we are discussing discus fish.



emc7 said:


> Prazi also treats external flukes, but I don't think thats your issue. IME treating a tank with Prazi won't save fish that won't eat but will prevent other fish from getting worms.


I was thinking, maybe she has worms. When fish get worms, sometimes they stop eating.


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## bmlbytes

She began swimming today. Looks a lot better. She is still not eating though. I even fed her favorite, blood worms.


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## lohachata

great to hear kid...one step at a time..at least she is looking better and is out and about more.....keep things as they are for now...temp 90+ etc....
do a 25% water change and remedicate....i think the the Aquarisol is working...results are not always instant.......little by little she should improve ; but may be a couple more days for her to start eating again..


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## snyderguy

If she's not thin, then worms are not a problem which is great news. Good to hear that she's swimming around too.


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## bmlbytes

She was actually slightly fat before the treatment. She looks quite a bit thinner, but still a healthy size now. I am beginning to think it was just overeating. She is always the first one to get to the frozen food cube, and she hogs it too.


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## snyderguy

I wouldn't say that.. One of mine always looks like she's about to pop every time I feed them cause she hogs the food. But if that concerns you, you could drop food on each side of the tank to spread out the food more.


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## bmlbytes

She took a few bites at the food today. She didn't look like she wanted to compete for the food though. She was the first one to the cube, but then the other fish came, and took the cube away, and she didn't fight for it like normal.

Still an improvement. Thanks for the suggestions guys.


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## lohachata

just like us humans...takes a bit to get back to normal after being sick..


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## Guest

Glad she is on the mend.


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