# Lowering pH without staining water



## eaglescout316 (Sep 13, 2010)

Hi all. I'm wondering how one might go about lowering pH without staining the water. The reason i want to lower it is because i often read "you don't need to lower pH, fish can adjust to pH even up to 8!" Well, my pH is reading closer to 9. I've heard driftwood and peat can lower pH but stain the water. I've also read that running carbon will keep the water from staining.

I have a canister filter with 4 media trays. I was considering trying to put driftwood on the tray below the carbon to filter the water-staining compounds out immediately. Does this sound plausible? Do you know of any other way to lower pH that doesn't rely on making the water itself look different?


----------



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

make large water changes with distilled water. that wil remove the minerals which are keeping the pH so high, and that will let the ph fall.


----------



## Schwartzy61 (Jan 25, 2010)

Driftwood releases a chemical called tannis. I heard that tannis can be bad for your fish...dont take my words exactly on this. What i do is i have an over the back filter. I have a sponge stage, carbon stage, bio filter stage, and peat granules stage. Peat granules help lower ph and soften water. Carbon removes the stain.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

peat, driftwood, oak leaves, etc. All naturally lower pH and stain the water. Tanins are complex, but fish from places (like ponds full of decaying wood and leaves) that have them like them and will often only spawn when they are present. So they sell stuff like "blackwater extract" that has the stuff in them. IME, a normal amount of carbon in a filter won't unstain the water. You'd end up constantly refreshing it and it would get costly. I don't doubt that tanins may not be good for some non-"blackwater" fish.

You options are:

Pick fish that like your water and/or acclimate fish to live in your water. Have you looked at African cichlids and Mexican or central american livebearers (goodieds, guppies, mollies, swordtails)? Recent research shows pH to be unimportant compared to TDS and other hardness measures. Get some TDS, gH, kH or similar measure and post it and compare it to wild bodies of water online. The diversity of natural fish habitat is a lot bigger that most people realize. 

Lower the hardness with chemical buffers and/or "natural buffers" and deal with side effects like cloudiness and/or staining as well as being vigilant about monitoring pH/hardness to keep it from fluctuating. I like the seachem "regulators" but if you add a chemical softener, ions will precipitate out of solution and cloud your water. You'd use micron (very fine) filtration to try to catch the solids adding buffer creates. Of course, you have to keep using the stuff, keep checking parameters and it does add up over time. 

Dilute your water with rainwater, distilled water, or deionized water. Either from an outside source (say refillable jugs at wal-mart) or from the addition of an RO filter or similar system. Again, you devote yourself to constant monitoring and you have an ongoing cost. RO systems have a big upfront cost and you need to buy replacement cartridges. But the water isn't likely to stain or cloud.


----------



## eaglescout316 (Sep 13, 2010)

emc7 said:


> peat, driftwood, oak leaves, etc. All naturally lower pH and stain the water. Tanins are complex, but fish from places (like ponds full of decaying wood and leaves) that have them like them and will often only spawn when they are present. So they sell stuff like "blackwater extract" that has the stuff in them. IME, a normal amount of carbon in a filter won't unstain the water. You'd end up constantly refreshing it and it would get costly. I don't doubt that tanins may not be good for some non-"blackwater" fish.
> 
> You options are:
> 
> ...


I like the look of African cichlids and i first stumbled across them looking for something that likes high pH. The problem is i'd be left with a small number of large fish, and small selection since most African cichlids get big enough that if i had them and let other fishkeepers know they were in a 29g i'd be told i was being cruel to the fish and need to buy a bigger aquarium. I'm not at a point in my life where arbitrarily buying a bigger aquarium is really on the table.

Intuition is telling me that if i use something to bring down the pH that stains the water, trying to scrub out the stain with carbon or carbon-like filtration media is going to be battling the pH lowering chemicals. I'll wind up trying to lower the pH while soaking up the pH lowering compounds and that just sounds like a bad idea.

You're the first person that's actually suggested chemical buffers as an alternative. Any other forum i've mentioned such an idea on has responded to me as if i'd proposed some sort of crime against nature. I have my quarantine tank filled and cycling so i'll probably try the seachem regulators on that first. The main tank has the accumulated hardness of at least a year without being totally drained (i moved a year ago, i know not to drain a tank unless absolutely necessary). The quarantine tank has not had evaporation concentrating the hardness and things like that. I run a Marineland C-220 on the 29g main tank, i'm hoping it can polish out the cloudiness well enough. I could add more polishing pads between media trays if necessary. I'm not afraid of monitoring parameters; i paid for the API Master Test Kit and hardness kits so not much sense in avoiding their use.

RO isn't an option for me since i live in an apartment, and buying filtered water is more expensive than gasoline sometimes. It does sound like buffering won't be the worst thing ever.


----------



## Schwartzy61 (Jan 25, 2010)

Just make sure that if u use a buffer in a planted tank that it is phosphate free. Seachems neutral regulator is great if u want a community aquarium in the 7.0 range but not good if u have a planted tank because it contains phosphate. For planted tanks they have an acid buffer and alkaline buffer that you use in conjunction together. I used it for a little but it was a little frusturating at times so i just switched to peat granules. If you do amaerican cichlids they make a buffer for american cichlids as well.


----------



## eaglescout316 (Sep 13, 2010)

Schwartzy61 said:


> Just make sure that if u use a buffer in a planted tank that it is phosphate free. Seachems neutral regulator is great if u want a community aquarium in the 7.0 range but not good if u have a planted tank because it contains phosphate. For planted tanks they have an acid buffer and alkaline buffer that you use in conjunction together. I used it for a little but it was a little frusturating at times so i just switched to peat granules. If you do amaerican cichlids they make a buffer for american cichlids as well.


I'm more concerned about causing an algae bloom since i don't have any plants.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I use the regulators to keep my pH up (water is super-soft). I get algae whether or not i use them. But I understand that extra phosphates where you have a lot of light (like in a planted tank) can really cause algae to go nuts. I like the seachem products, but you committing to a lot of time. You have to be careful to be accurate with buffers. I got a set of really long handled measuring spoons, like little ladles. I once killed fish ODing the acid buffer. The regulators are much safer to overdose, but might be less effective in very hard water. Proceed cautiously. IMO the chemicals are good products that work if used as directed, but every thing you do a tank can have unintended consequences.


----------



## Chrispixx (Dec 23, 2008)

Anyone every try this stuff for Ph? http://www.aquatichouse.com/Water Conditioners/Proper pH.asp I have seen it in the pet stores and from reading the label it seems like it would be effective. maybe it similar to the seachem stuff mentioned. the biggest drawback that i can see is looking at the price it will get expensive depending on how often it will have to be added.


----------



## eaglescout316 (Sep 13, 2010)

Chrispixx said:


> Anyone every try this stuff for Ph? http://www.aquatichouse.com/Water Conditioners/Proper pH.asp I have seen it in the pet stores and from reading the label it seems like it would be effective. maybe it similar to the seachem stuff mentioned. the biggest drawback that i can see is looking at the price it will get expensive depending on how often it will have to be added.


It does sound similar to the seachem products in function but i don't know what chemicals they're using as buffers. The other potential problem i forsee is that the seachem regulators, when targeting specific pH, assume RO/DI water for their dosage levels. They'll still work if you don't have RO/DI water but you first have to beat the water's own buffering system to essentially install your own customized buffering. Using Neutral and Acid regulators from seachem lets this be easy enough, i just adjust the ratio. The water in my quarantine tank has been stable at 6.6 pH for a week while my tap water is 8+.

You'll want to be sure Proper PH doesn't assume RO/DI water as well, because if it does then it will be very hard to hit that target since you can't adjust ratios yourself.

Pricewise, it's expensive to start, pretty cheap to maintain. When you're first bringing that full tank of water to the proper level, you'll go through a container in about a week, maybe a week and a half. After that you just add some at each water change and a full dose once a month or so. Both Proper PH and Seachem's Regulators remove chlorine and chloramine so they render stuff like Prime unnecessary. If you use it in place of a water conditioner, then the cost difference is pretty negligible once you're just maintaining.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Buffer costs add up if you have multiple, large tanks. People with huge cichlids tanks often switch to DIY. But for one or two tanks, the cost is pretty minimal and the bottle lasts a long time. 

Be careful with the seachem regulators. It looks like the little, liquid bottles contain the Prime, but the large jars of powders don't and you still need dechlor. But the big jars are cheaper. 

I think you are right to use the SeaChem buffers (carbonate) rather than the regulator when you have a long way to go pH wise. They are bit more work than the regulators. You have test and measure carefully since an overdose can be fatal. By blending 2 products, you should be able to hold any pH you want to. 

The regulators are safe to overdose. However a large amount of the phosphate buffers can cause problems like algae and the harder your water, the more you need.

We occasionally get proper pH users on the board with extremely cloudy tanks. Sometimes it goes away on its own, sometime a fine, white dust will cover the substrate like snow. I would say use with caution in very hard water and test the product in a clear jar before you get it in your tank. It can take weeks of water changes to clear a proper pH caused issue. It dose, however, seem to control the pH as advertised.
Although the products sound similar, I've never seen a cloudy water complaint from the seachem product.


----------



## eaglescout316 (Sep 13, 2010)

emc7 said:


> Buffer costs add up if you have multiple, large tanks. People with huge cichlids tanks often switch to DIY. But for one or two tanks, the cost is pretty minimal and the bottle lasts a long time.
> 
> Be careful with the seachem regulators. It looks like the little, liquid bottles contain the Prime, but the large jars of powders don't and you still need dechlor. But the big jars are cheaper.
> 
> ...


The cost of anything in this hobby goes up as the tanks get bigger or more plentiful. It's the nature of the beast.

The one negative thing about Seachem that i've found so far is that they've got misnomers with their product names. Regulators are actually buffers, and what they call buffers are actually sources. So when they say "Acid Buffer" it's actually a source of acid, but "Acid Regulator" contains buffers to help hold an acidic pH. I keep slipping up and use buffer and regulator interchangeably even though there's a big difference from Seachem's perspective. I've been very fortunate in this pH adventure. I tested the water just before starting and found my aquarium had medium-hard water with a surprisingly low kH level. The water stopped clouding after day 2. It wasn't even bad, just a slight haze that would go away in a couple hours.

Also, from the Seachem site: "The use of Neutral Regulator™ makes other conditioning unnecessary." That's for the powder. I still throw in Prime anyway, but if one is concerned about cost that's something to consider.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok...i am kind of an odd old geezer..i don't mind stained water at all..especially since the fish really like it.i use driftwood and peat to lower my PH..they do it much more gently than the chemical buffers....if you can't stand the stain ; then don't keep species that like it...do some research and find species of fish that prefer hard alkaline water..then just keep them.
i have kept african cichlids for many years..they are pretty easy to keep and are beautiful..they also do best when a bit overcrowded..it keeps them from harassing any one particular fish..i used to keep 25-30 mbuna in a 40 long...nobody got tore up or kiled...once a month i pulled all the females and stripped the fry..
get lots of rocks..fill the tank with them..give them lots of places to hide.
do not stack the rocks nice and neat like i see so often..mother nature doesn't do that.
use crushed coral or dolomite for a substrate..
just try not to but fish that get to be 8-12 inches long..


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

IMO, peat is a bit of a PITA as it always gets loose even when I use pellets and stick it in bags or pots. But the fish do like it, and the stain only annoys me when I try to photograph my pretty pink-bellied fish and it comes out like a novelty sepia-tinted black and white photo. Driftwood is a need for plecos, anyway. I try to be careful with it to keep the pH from falling too far. Next to try are oak or Indian Almond leaves and alder cones (supposed to stop eggs from fungusing). 

buffers vs. acids and bases. A matter of nomenclature really. In my mind, a buffer is anything used to affect pH, especially to slow changes. A good buffer is a blend of weak acid with its conjugate base or a weak base and its conjugate acid. Looks like the SeaChem Acid buffer is bisulfates and the Alkaline buffer is carbonates. Either will slow a pH change, but because it is an acid or base will also move the pH itself. To hold a steady pH, you blend the acid buffer and the alkaline buffer together in a ratio that depends on your water and the target pH. Use just one, say the Acid buffer, and it's like pouring acid in your tank. Unlike pH Down (a straight acid), however, an Acid Buffer tank pH will tend to stay low. 

The difference with the Regulators is that each product already has a blend of two competing phosphate buffers to force the pH to stay in a range. I believe the Proper pH products are similarly a blend of phosphates. 

It is possible to overwhelm the "buffering" capacity of any system and have the pH suddenly move.


----------

