# The better hybrid?



## fishboy

I was wondering if it would be possible to breed a fancey guppy with a mosquito fish and produce fertile fry. I would be interested because a mosquito fish's tough immune system w/ some guppy coloration and finnage would make for a buetiful and tough fish. For this project i would simply re-inbreed the fertile strands every once and awhile and maybe throw in a new strand of mosquito fish to improve the immune system from the inbreeding later in the project. What do you think? Possible?


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## TheOldSalt

It's not only doable, it's been done. That's how the modern domesticated guppy got it's size, which is gigantic compared to wild guppies. On the other hand, it's not worth it. You'll wind up with only very few surviving fry, a strain of mean & nasty guppies, terrible colors, and speckles in the fins that'll take many generations to fully eliminate.

Your plan won't work. Adding some Gambusia blood every so often will only set you back to square one. It could be a fun longterm ( very longterm ) project if you feel like reinventing the wheel, but otherwise it's not worth it.


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## fishboy

It's good for me because I'll only be keeping very few fry for each spawn if i do this project. I may jusy want to get some Gambusia anyway for my empty desk tank so why not throw some color into them. I'm not trying to breed show quality here but I can pick up some guppy endler hybrids. Around here they're sold as fancy guppies but anyone who's ever seen a endler would know there is endler genetics in them. Hopefully with the endler genetics i could breed it into the gambusia through the guppy hybrid and get a hardier and more colorful fish in the process.


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## ron v

Fishboy, why not get some nice fancy guppies and inline breed for some select trait, that you like. Lots of info available to help you and if you suceed, it could be worth your trouble ( $$$ ).


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## fishboy

i hate doing ordinary things, I perfer to do things that involve more then just A+A=A which is basic guppy breeding to the simplest units. I would not mind the extra cost of achiving A+B=C:C+(A+E)=D just to do something alittle different


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## ron v

I don't know what your feelings are about "hybrids", and I really didn't want to open that can of worms here, but just be aware that many hobbyist are opposed to creating more hybrids in our hobby. It is getting increasingly more difficult to find "pure" strains of some fish in lfs today...


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## TheOldSalt

Well, you won't get any color in the Gambusia by crossing with guppies or endlers, and it'll take awhile before you can restore any color to guppies with mosquitofish blood in them, but if you simply must, then here's a tip: cross male mosquitos to female guppies.
The opposite may look like it would be easier, but the female Gambusias will tear any hapless male guppies to ribbons before they ever get a chance to mate.


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## Damon

You are looking at a 5-7 year project just to produce one or 2 triats you want. Thats not even considering that fact that the colors you produce, have bad traits. Good luck on your venture. Its a worthwile project if you are very patient and have a lot of time. Breeding quality livebearers can be difficult. If the fry aren't sexxed early enough (2-3 weeks), you can end up ruining your line because they will mate as soon as possible.


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## fishboy

Yet agian, this is not a project to breed show quality. I'm just someone who observes behaviors and takes notes and looks at genetic trates through generations. I don't care about making a buetiful fish as much as i care about making a fish that i can be interested in. My beginning ideas for this project were at a higher expectation then i knew could happen. Also, most of these fry will be culled, I woud never introduce a hybrid like this into the aquarium hobby. I am a fan of keeping bloodlines in the hobby as pure as possible but I an mearly doing this as a fun experiment. After this, if i become good at documenting hybridizing, I plan on testing and recording the muppy/golly hybrid theory


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## TheOldSalt

golly/muppy hybrid theory? What theory?


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## garfieldnfish

How can breeding a fish that you then have to destroy be fun? This escapes me. 
If I breed something I have to know ahead of time that I can either keep it or that there will be a market for it. Breeding a fish that no one want is just cruel.


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## fishboy

Well TOS mollys and gollys, though they have been created, have never been properly documented (unless u can prove this wrong). I want to breed them and figure out want the proper water conditions are, document the growth of fry, etc. So i want to try to breed them and record everything to prove the theory that they can breed(because some claim it as impossible)

garfeildnfish-most of these fry will be culled only because hybridizing causes many unhealthy mutations. Healthy fry will survive. I call it fun because to me breeding is fun. I know that sadly these fish will have no demand in the market but I am someone who wants them and possibly I'll be able to give a trio to my friend who is a fan of livebearers but I'll have to see. I know I'll supply him w/ gambusia if he wants them


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## fishboy

Rember, this is a hobby based of experimenting. Without people who took part in experiments just to do something new do you think we'd have fancy guppies? Long finned fish? Blood Parrots? Goldfish? Koi? Fancy fish in general????? 
Experimenting is a important part of this hobby


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## Fishboy93

True thats how people get all the odd varities of swordtails and platys by cross breeding them like tuxedo or pineapple.............


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## doggydad38

I have seen pictures of Guppy/Molly crosses in Dr.Axelrod's Encyclopedia of Aquarium Fishes, but I'm not aware of any detailed jounals on the breeding of these hybrids. Remember, to, that most of these are sterile and will most likely die of cancerous growths because the parents aren't closely related species.
Tony


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## TheOldSalt

That's true; they aren't very closely related.

It really bugs me that they are placed in the same genus of Poecilia. I mean, really now, LOOK at a guppy & LOOK at a molly... are these things at all similar? Of course not. Methinks we should go back to splitting them into Molliensia & Lebistes again, even if under the supergenus of Poecilia.

They can hybridize and give a very small percentage of fertile fry, though, and I'm somewhat surprised to find that this issue was ever in doubt.


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## garfieldnfish

Someone please clue me in. If this results in an ugly fish that noone want why do it?


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## fishboy

why do people spend millions of dollars to create a atom that will fall apart in under a hour?, just because it's there and it's a possiblity. People are naturaly curious and I'm one of them, plus I've never seen a fish that I didn't want, I have a certian love of oddballs(because I am one) and this is a way to produce a fish that is different and individual. And how said no one wants them? Though they don't have much demand I know people who breed fish and would take them just to admire them. These hybrids will mostly be sterile anyway. Sadly I'm split betweenthis hybridizing project and a endler breeding project but endlers are hardier to get so I'll see what happens. sorry if i made typos


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## ron v

Fishboy, the idea of hybrid fish is very controversial. Hybrid fish are damaging our hobby. It is becomming more and more difficult to find pure blood fish of various species anymore. Many advanced hobbyst dislike hybrid fish and also dislike the people that allow it to happen. Most hybrid fish are produced either by people that don't know or don't care. Even worse than that, many are produced for commercial reasons... Parrot cichlids, flowerhorns, baloon mollies ( not sure they are hybrids.. I don't know where those hidious things come from ) are all for MONEY. Science or curiousity is seldom the reason. Fishboy there are many avenues for legitimate experimentation in this hobby. You have a curious mind. That's good. Why not use it to further our hobby. As long as you do "anything" that even hints at hybrids, you will be looked down on by many advanced hobbysts.


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## fishboy

well this whole project is still on the fence. This hybrid project is mearly just for me to learn though i know it would be looked down apon yet i still have a strange urge to carry on for this project has been in planning for sometime now and i have some tanks set aside for it. If I can get a pure endler stock from my LFS(trust me, these fish will be observed closely to see if they cntain guppy genetics) then i will breed thoose fish instead because, I admit, they are far prettier. If i can't get gambusia affins or endlers from my LFS then I will wait till the summer, hope my dad will get paypal, and buy a wild endler stock off AB instead. No matter what though, i will do the muppy project at some point.


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## Mishy

Garfieldnfish it sounds like you are only in this breeding thing to make money. I like the idea it would be good to see what turns out of it.


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## garfieldnfish

No I'm not into breeding fish for money (Something hardly ever done in a home aquarium anyway, I still have my day job). I try to breed fish that are rare or hard to find in nature thus making them more available for the hobby we love. And to prevent certain species from becoming extinct. But I don't believe in "experimenting" with living creatures, which you then have to destroy most if not all of. Seems that should be left up to nature and someone higher up then me.


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## aaa

fishboy said:


> well this whole project is still on the fence. This hybrid project is mearly just for me to learn though i know it would be looked down apon yet i still have a strange urge to carry on for this project has been in planning for sometime now and i have some tanks set aside for it. If I can get a pure endler stock from my LFS(trust me, these fish will be observed closely to see if they cntain guppy genetics) then i will breed thoose fish instead because, I admit, they are far prettier. If i can't get gambusia affins or endlers from my LFS then I will wait till the summer, hope my dad will get paypal, and buy a wild endler stock off AB instead. No matter what though, i will do the muppy project at some point.


hey fishboy, i know a guy that has tons of pure endler he needs to sell. if you are interested, PM me.

by the way, i am really interested in the project you about to do. i am against hybrid most of the time as it can drive one species to extiction, but this time, i really want to see what happen because i want to try this many years ago but i never have space or time to do it. keep us update on this project. plus so many guppies and gambusia affinis out there, doesn't hurt to try.


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## fishboy

garfieldnfish said:


> No I'm not into breeding fish for money (Something hardly ever done in a home aquarium anyway, I still have my day job). I try to breed fish that are rare or hard to find in nature thus making them more available for the hobby we love. And to prevent certain species from becoming extinct. But I don't believe in "experimenting" with living creatures, which you then have to destroy most if not all of. Seems that should be left up to nature and someone higher up then me.


I'm not playing god here, it's just a honest experiment. Without experimentation who would have thought, "Hey we should put fish in glass boxes!" Many experiments create good results, I'm just trying to see if I can create a nice looking fish. If this experiment did occur I would keep and breed pure endler as well and give those to my LFS to sell them. Though I'm worried about this because people would keep them with guppies and would remove half of the pure endler straind through accidental breeding. So therein lies the problem. The easiest fix i can see is that I should only give away only male endlers so that no females are sold to the public and reduce the cross breeding chances...Though I think I'll try cross breeding once just to see the turn out., I've seen very good results, including the stunning veiltail endler, which is a veiltailed guppy with bright endler coloration


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## Fishboy93

Just out of curiousity are you using gambusia affinis or gambusia hoolbroki?


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## aaa

fishboy said:


> I'm not playing god here, it's just a honest experiment. Without experimentation who would have thought, "Hey we should put fish in glass boxes!" Many experiments create good results, I'm just trying to see if I can create a nice looking fish. If this experiment did occur I would keep and breed pure endler as well and give those to my LFS to sell them. Though I'm worried about this because people would keep them with guppies and would remove half of the pure endler straind through accidental breeding. So therein lies the problem. The easiest fix i can see is that I should only give away only male endlers so that no females are sold to the public and reduce the cross breeding chances...Though I think I'll try cross breeding once just to see the turn out., I've seen very good results, including the stunning veiltail endler, which is a veiltailed guppy with bright endler coloration


don't sell the endler to pet store, it is sad to see those good bloodline to to waste. by the way did you get the endler?

i saw the guppy endler cross before... it looks kind of expected and boring. i am more interested in gambusia affinis cross than endler.


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## aaa

garfieldnfish said:


> No I'm not into breeding fish for money (Something hardly ever done in a home aquarium anyway, I still have my day job). I try to breed fish that are rare or hard to find in nature thus making them more available for the hobby we love. And to prevent certain species from becoming extinct. But I don't believe in "experimenting" with living creatures, which you then have to destroy most if not all of. Seems that should be left up to nature and someone higher up then me.


yes, i am against hybrid too. there is some species that need to be save and should keep a pure bloodline. but on the other hand, if you don't hybrid, you cannot create some of the pretty fish you see today. betta is a good example. the new metallic color(copper, platinum, gold, masking effect) is most likely B. splendens cross with B. imbellis, B. smaragdina or Betta sp. Mahachai. so i agree with you you should not hybrid, but sometimes experience a bit with species that have plenty out there is not a bad thing.


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## fishboy

It turns out I'm having trouble finding gambusia affins(which is what I'll be using) but I can get localy bred guppies for free. I'm seeing if I can get some endlersthough I haven't obtained them yet. To tell you the truth, this hybrid was a science fair project. Yet it was cut because it was to "all or nothing" because the original plns involved cross breeding guppies and mollies(it is actualy possible). I don't have alot of space though so I'll have to see. I think I want to breed some endler stock and at least give them to my friend who's a local breeder. Besides that I'll have to see what fish I can obtain for the project because using guppies and mollies(though they are very common) is very difficult so I'll have to look into gambusia and endler some more


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## fishboy

oh and I PMed you aaa, please get back to me ASAP before my tank's free space is occupied. I would love to breed some pure strainds and pass them through my breeding friends


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## Fishboy93

yeah my mom wants me to do my science fair over the summer about how Lake Okachobee is releaseing freshwater into our SW sea grass beds and killing them and then the manatees are dieing, birds leaving, and fish leaving...


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## aaa

fishboy said:


> oh and I PMed you aaa, please get back to me ASAP before my tank's free space is occupied. I would love to breed some pure strainds and pass them through my breeding friends


i PM you back, please check.


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## happykitsune

Fishboy, I want you to know that I support your efforts to take on the act that most people have done since the dawn of time (experimenting). Thats how we got some of our coolest inventions known today and any one who thinks this is silly or that this endeavor will only be wasted becus it's not "helpful to the hobby" should be ashamed of themselves. If you guys had read he clearly stated he was only experimenting and not selling them. I wish you ppl would stop being so harsh on him about this. This bad comments need to stop. To me he seems like a better fish hobbiest than all of you becus he is willing to try something new. In fact, Im gonna try this guppy-mosquito fish experiment as well. I'm curious to see the results for myself. 

Go for what you want to do Fishboy. Don't listen to the haters and follow your curiosity like I am  

Honestly, some of those comments made me sick. :-x


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## gemjunkie

fishboy said:


> well this whole project is still on the fence. This hybrid project is mearly just for me to learn though i know it would be looked down apon yet i still have a strange urge to carry on for this project has been in planning for sometime now and i have some tanks set aside for it. If I can get a pure endler stock from my LFS(trust me, these fish will be observed closely to see if they cntain guppy genetics) then i will breed thoose fish instead because, I admit, they are far prettier. If i can't get gambusia affins or endlers from my LFS then I will wait till the summer, hope my dad will get paypal, and buy a wild endler stock off AB instead. No matter what though, i will do the muppy project at some point.



What is wrong with this picture? 

First, what will you do with your extras? Sell them to some unsuspecting LFS or better yet dump them into a nearby stream? What a good idea because they can't possibly survive to harm the native speices! 

They are still creatures, and it's still cruel to do that for 'fun'. So, in the best case scenario, you'll be culling fish and flushing little bodies down the toilet, dead or alive, to satisfy your curiosity.. 

How nice..


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## happykitsune

gemjunkie said:


> What is wrong with this picture?
> 
> First, what will you do with your extras? Sell them to some unsuspecting LFS or better yet dump them into a nearby stream? What a good idea because they can't possibly survive to harm the native speices!
> 
> They are still creatures, and it's still cruel to do that for 'fun'. So, in the best case scenario, you'll be culling fish and flushing little bodies down the toilet, dead or alive, to satisfy your curiosity..
> 
> How nice..


He just said he wasn't going to sell them and he was planning on giving them to his friend.

This isn't any different than what most fish keepers do (yes even the ones that dont make money off of this hobby) only he is culling the bad ones so that the line wont have any problems and to get fish with good traits (endure more, but still have color, etc) which is good. I personally dont like to cull fish at all, but it has to be done sometimes and all of you know as well as I do that many, and I mean many, fish hobbiest cull they're fish because its not what they want and they dont have the room. 

So please dont bash the poor guy. After all, hes only doing the same thing most of us are already doing, and at least hes not doing it just to make cold, hard cash. He's doing it for the love of the hobby.

Now thats a true fish hobbyist.


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## gemjunkie

happykitsune said:


> Fishboy, I want you to know that I support your efforts to take on the act that most people have done since the dawn of time (experimenting). Thats how we got some of our coolest inventions known today and any one who thinks this is silly or that this endeavor will only be wasted becus it's not "helpful to the hobby" should be ashamed of themselves. If you guys had read he clearly stated he was only experimenting and not selling them. I wish you ppl would stop being so harsh on him about this. This bad comments need to stop. To me he seems like a better fish hobbiest than all of you becus he is willing to try something new. In fact, Im gonna try this guppy-mosquito fish experiment as well. I'm curious to see the results for myself.
> 
> Go for what you want to do Fishboy. Don't listen to the haters and follow your curiosity like I am
> 
> Honestly, some of those comments made me sick. :-x



Encouraging someone to do such a thing is what's SICK....


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## gemjunkie

happykitsune said:


> He just said he wasn't going to sell them and he was planning on giving them to his friend.
> 
> This isn't any different than what most fish keepers do (yes even the ones that dont make money off of this hobby) only he is culling the bad ones so that the line wont have any problems and to get fish with good traits (endure more, but still have color, etc) which is good. I personally dont like to cull fish at all, but it has to be done sometimes and all of you know as well as I do that many, and I mean many, fish hobbiest cull they're fish because its not what they want and they dont have the room.
> 
> So please dont bash the poor guy. After all, hes only doing the same thing most of us are already doing, and at least hes not doing it just to make cold, hard cash. He's doing it for the love of the hobby.
> 
> Now thats a true fish hobbyist.


Giving them to someone else is ensuring that they will get into the general population THAT'S ALL.... He's doing it because he's selfish and has NO interest in protecting the hobby. This is a 'You all be damned I'll do what I please!' attitude.


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## Guest

a true fish hobbyist would be concerned with preserving species of fish, not crossbreeding them..and in return destroying the bloodlines. endlers for instance, it is getting harder and harder to find PURE endlers...because of "experiments" just like this one... there are THOUSANDS of beautiful fish out there, why experiment, which results in culling, and destroying bloodlines, when you could be spending your time doing something productive?.. ethics come into play here...


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## TheOldSalt

This thread is a year old or more. Why on earth did it get dredged up again?

Do NOT release these fish into the wild. They WILL very likely survive, as Damnbusia do, and they will ruin whatever ecosystem they wind up in, as damnbusia do. Giving them away to other people is not an option. Those other people will very quickly grow weary of these little monsters, and you can't control what they'll do with them. Cull them.


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