# High Nitrate and Nitrite Levels



## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

I have a 10gal Freshwater Tank approximately one month old which is exhibiting high levels of both Nitrates _and _Nitrites. I understand that the former is not necessarily detrimental to the health of the Fish, but the latter is.

This is a simple setup with four Goldfish, a Marineland C160 Filter, heater, a few sandstones, etc. The setup is in a room that receives a large amount of light, which is no doubt contributing to the Algae problem mentioned below.

Is there any way I can get these levels down?

Also, I have now run into an Algae problem. What is the best way to deal with this? I would assume this will include a substantial tank change and to that end I assume the contents of the filter should likewise be drained?

Thanks!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

lgl:

IMHO the probable cause of the three problems is overfeeding.
(Please note that algae cannot survive without nutrients;
that the high concentration of nitrates is due to the bacteriological digestion of the nitrites [unless your tap water is high in nitrates] and
that the high concentration of nitrites is due to the bacteriological digestion of ammonia [you did not report an observable concentration of ammonia but "it just has to be there or has been there"].


IMHO and if it were my tank & fishies:

1) commence 10% daily WC's and continue these 10% WC's for 10 days;
2) in the one gallon of tank water from the first WC thoroughly rinse your mechanical and biological filtration media;
3) do not feed for two days;
4) subsequent to the two days feed 1/2 of what you have been feeding for five days
5) in the one gallon of tank water from the last 10% WC thoroughly rinse your mechanical and biological filtration media;
6) post your water parameters and algae growth or hopefully decline after the seven day period.

Also please refer to
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/fyi-your-info/17334-algae-fighting-west-texas-style.html

TR


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

I would also get a bubble and air pump. that will help lower down the levels.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2007)

Another reason for the high nitrates is that the tank is overstocked. I wouldn't even keep one Goldfish in a 10g. They are messy fish who produce alot of waste. They will also eventually outgrow a 10g. For all 4 of those, you should have around a 50 gallon tank with atleast twice the filtration.

Doing the daily water changes will take care of the problem now, but will not solve it IMO. I'd definitely start them to lower the nitrItes. Doing 50% water changes weekly after that and feeding once a day or once every other day will help.

You should really consider upgrading the setup though.


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

FishHead said:


> I would also get a bubble and air pump. that will help lower down the levels.


Thanks! I am aerating this to death!  I should have mentioned that. And if I recall from HS Chemistry (egads, LONG ago) small bubbles are better than larger ones....

Lyman


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

JustOneMore20 said:


> Another reason for the high nitrates is that the tank is overstocked. I wouldn't even keep one Goldfish in a 10g. They are messy fish who produce alot of waste. They will also eventually outgrow a 10g. For all 4 of those, you should have around a 50 gallon tank with atleast twice the filtration.
> 
> Doing the daily water changes will take care of the problem now, but will not solve it IMO. I'd definitely start them to lower the nitrItes. Doing 50% water changes weekly after that and feeding once a day or once every other day will help.
> 
> You should really consider upgrading the setup though.


Well, that was the next step I was considering....at one time I had a 150 gal Saltwater which I loved, but going much larger at this point isn't in the budget. Agreed on the fish, they do produce allot of waste. :fish:


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

jones57742 said:


> lgl:
> 
> IMHO the probable cause of the three problems is overfeeding.
> (Please note that algae cannot survive without nutrients;
> ...


Tr, thank you very much for the guidance. I'll give that a shot, and in the meantime will be looking to go to a larger setup down the road.

My Grandson is _really_ attached to one of the Goldfish. What other species could I get that would co-exist with same? The other Goldfish I'd just return to the Store.

Thanks,

Lyman


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Jones is right on. I suggest being even more aggressive with the water changes. Nitrite is very toxic. You need to get the level well down into the "safe" range, however much water it takes to do that. It might take 80% water changes.


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

emc7 said:


> Jones is right on. I suggest being even more aggressive with the water changes. Nitrite is very toxic. You need to get the level well down into the "safe" range, however much water it takes to do that. It might take 80% water changes.


A 10% change every day for ten days? Or perhaps a 30% change?

Thanks,

Lyman


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Whatever it takes. If your nitrite is double the safe level, change half the water. After you change water, test again, if the level is still high, change water again. Goldfish can be very tolerant, but they don't have to be. If you leave your fish in high nitrite for too long, you may lose the fish the child is attached to.


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

emc7 said:


> Whatever it takes. If your nitrate is double the safe level, change half the water. After you change water, test again, if the level is still high, change water again. Goldfish can be very tolerant, but they don't have to be. If you leave your fish in high nitrite for too long, you may lose the fish the child is attached to.


Okay, thanks. I'll do that and monitor it.

Many thanks again,

Lyman


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

lgl:

enc has much more experience than I do "so please keep that in mind here".

I believe that what we are both trying to address here is 

1) very high nitrite concentrations (and more importantly the very high ammonia concentrations associated therewith) are lethal over a very short period, typically extending from a few hours to a few days and
2) high nitrite concentrations (and once again more importantly high ammonia concentrations associated therewith) are toxic to fish: ie. the fish will not "be happy fish" and their lifespan will be significantly reduced.

Examples:
How long would you survive breathing 10% air and 90% cigarate smoke (ie. this is an analogy to fish in a tank with very high nitrite and ammonia concetrations ).
Do you believe that being in a bar room which is 50% cigarete smoke and 50% air for 10 days would affect your life expetancy (ie. this is an analogy to fish in a tank with high nitrite and ammonia concetrations ).

My concern with respect to the 80% WC is the adverse effect to the biological filtration media.

The following are IMHO and are based on emc's posts (emc: I "never figured" that significantly high nitrite concentrations would exist):

If your nitrite concentration is 1.0 mg/l or greater then forget the serious adverse effect to the biological filtration media and perform an 80% WC;

If your nitrite concentration is between 0.15 and 1.00 mg/l then forget the adverse affect (which will be minimal) to the biological filtration media and perform a 30% WC immediately and then start the protocol as set forth in my previous post and

If your nitrite concentration is below 0.15 mg/l then proceed in accordance with my previous post.

I have absolutely no experience with goldfish and, hence, for sure no experience comingling goldfish and tropical fish. I will research this topic today or this weekend and post
BUT
Based on your signature the cost of a 50G tank, an HOB filter, a heater/thermostat, and a thermometer is "nothing" compare to your grandson enjoying his goldfish
ie. please humor me, hustle one up and start cycling.

TR

BTW:
One of these days it will be your turn to expend the time necessary to prepare the posts which emc and I have based on our experience.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

oops I said nitrate once when I meant nitrite. Nitrite is much worse than nitrate. I read post after post of people who get 0 ammonia, think their tank is cycled, go add fish and suddenly have floaters. You must test for nitrite up until 10 weeks in a new tank until you see it drop to 0. You can have 0 ammonia and still have killing nitrite levels. If you are cycling with bio-spira or stability or even scrum from an established tank's filter, when you start having reading nitrite, add another dose.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Goldfish should only be kept with other goldfish really... but if you must find a fish to go with them, a hillstream loach would be fine at the temperature they require. Small fish should not be kept with goldfish because of the goldfish being opertunistic predators. I would also recomend not getting any more fish until you upgrade. 

AND

high nitrite levels are a sign that your cycle is not over with. I would recomend doing several water changes around 25% every day until the problem has gone down to safe levels and add aquarium salt to detoxify the nitrite a bit. Over feeding is probably a factor, but probably not the cause. More than likely its not that you overwhelmed established bacterial colonies with large amounts of wasted food, but rather just didn't wait for these bacterial colonies to establish themselves in the first place.

The fix to this is just patients and reduced feeding along with the mentioned water changes and the added salt. Goldfish have a high tolerance to salt, so you will have no problems acclimating them to the recommended dosage on the box.

Remove the salt once your nitrite readings are back to normal. This can be done by doing a 30% water change/week for 4 weeks.


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

First of all, thank you very much to everyone who has taken the trouble to go to such lengths to assist me with this. It is greatly appreciated to say the least; many thanks!

Switching gears...I am also dealing with an Algae problem. This was of my own doing for placing this tank in a room that takes in broad daylight all day long. Having said that, I am going to move the tank but it the Algae now a permanent part of filtration material, stones, plants, et al? What's the best way to go about this? Scrubbing the tank is only a bandaid patch....

Thanks,

Lyman


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Let the algae be until the nitrite comes down. Then you can remove some mechanically (gravel washing, scraping, running filter media under tap). While the tank is 'still cycling' you don't want to take out any of your good bacteria. Algae feeds on ammonia, nitrite, nitrate so it is taking out stuff that might other wise be killing your fish. Once you have the nutrients under control, the growth rate of the algae will slow down. What you must not do is kill the algae and leave it in you tank rotting. Dead algae becomes ammonia, it's like way overfeeding your fish. Scrape enough glass so that you see the fish and siphon out what you scrape off. Other than that wait until your other problems are under control before taking any action. This exception is if the filter media gets so clogged it restricts flow, in that case scrub the algae off the media with a brush in waste water.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

lgl:

emc is right on here.

but it (is [sp.]) the Algae now a permanent part of filtration material, stones, plants, et al? 

No!
Please refer to:
http://www.fishforums.com/forum/fyi-your-info/17334-algae-fighting-west-texas-style.html

TR


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

jones57742 said:


> lgl:
> 
> emc is right on here.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. I'll continue with the water changes and leave the Algae alone for now.

I take it that at the end of ten days - or unitl the Nitrate levels drop - I can then address the Algae issue, but in what manner? Just a cleaning of tank, stones, etc?

Thanks again,

Lyman


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

lgldsr said:


> but in what manner? Just a cleaning of tank, stones, etc?


Please refer to posts 1, 2 and 3 by Emc and I in the following thread.

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/fyi-your-info/17334-algae-fighting-west-texas-style.html

TR


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

You want your nitrIte levels to lower... nitrAte levels are more than likely going to go down with the water changes. Also, I would address some of the problem with the algae right now. If you can block the light from the windows do it.


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## lgldsr (Sep 20, 2007)

*Update*

Just an update...

I've been doing 50% water changes every day and the cycle is pretty much the same: the Nitrite and Nitrate levels drop, but by the following morning (24 hours) they are back up there.

At this point I cannot help but wonder if I have too many Fish relative to the tank size. I have two that are 3.5" in length, and two that are ~1.5" in length. I cannot help but wonder if the cycle of Nitrite and Nitrate will be broken unless I remove one of the larger fish given the amount of waste these no doubt produce. 

Algae: although the water color is somewhat green there is very little visible Algae on the tank walls. A few spots here, a few spots there.

Lastly, should I be conditioning the water in between these water changes? Should I also be attempting to raise the pH given the frequency of these changes?

Thanks,

Lyman


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

It is possible you have too much waste for your system to handle. In this case you simply can't convert the nitrite to nitrate as fast as it is made. 

Options for reducing nitrite are 1) reduce feeding, if cutting your feeding starves the fish, then remove extra fish. 2) add filtration, increase flow rate or add media to your existing filter and/or add another filter (sponge and box filters are cheap and effective biological filtration.

Once you have nitrite under control you can look at nitrate. Know that most nitrate tests are inaccurate when nitrite is present. 

Options for reducing nitrate: 1) reduce feeding 2) increase water changes 3) add plants or algae to eat the nitrate.

I really doubt you want to increase water changes any more or add algae. So either you are excessively feeding the fish or you have too many fish for the tank. I think you have already been told this. So removing some fish would help. You could also try only feeding your fish once every other day for a while. 


> conditioning the water in between these water changes


Always use dechlor. And since these are goldfish and nitrite is high, I would add salt (aquarium or marine) at 1 tsp/gallon to the new water. So I would put dechlor, clean water, salt in a bucket and let it sit an hour then siphon the tank and refill. Salt isn't essential, but its supposed to reduce nitrite toxicity.



> should I also be attempting to raise the pH given the frequency of these changes


 no, unless your tap water pH is extremely low (>4.5) which is almost never the case because water systems don't want corroded pipes. The frequency of water changes will keep the pH close the tap, and trying to adjust may cause fluctuations and additional stress. Some crushed coral in a bag in a filter (box or hang on back) may slowly increase hardness and help buffer the water, but its not really necessary. I say may because if your water is really hard to start with it won't do anything. 

Unfortunately, even if you get the nitrite and nitrate under control for now, the goldfish will continue to grow and sooner or later you will right back in this situation. 

Have you ever considered getting a pond?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

lgl:

emc posted while I was preparing this post.
If conflicts exist please defer to his post.



lgldsr said:


> At this point I cannot help but wonder if I have too many Fish relative to the tank size. I have two that are 3.5" in length, and two that are ~1.5" in length.


lgl
With the time I spent preparing posts in this thread I hope that you know that the following is only West Texas humor:

Ah ha: Ah ha:
Was not Jom's post not prophetic.



JustOneMore20 said:


> ... Another reason for the high nitrates is that the tank is overstocked. I wouldn't even keep one Goldfish in a 10g. They are messy fish who produce alot of waste. ...


As I indicated the above is intended to be humorous and "please do not sweat it" as I have had many what could be very euphemistically termed "Many Adventures in Fishkeeping" such as the one which you are into.

Please note that time which I have spent in post preparation is "more than well worth it" as you are diligently pursuing "making your fish happy campers".



lgldsr said:


> I cannot help but wonder if the cycle of Nitrite and Nitrate will be broken unless I remove one of the larger fish given the amount of waste these no doubt produce.


lgl:

I am not sure what you are saying here but once again "do not sweat it" whatever "it" is.

The quantity of ammonia and nitrite digestion bacteria in you biological filtration system is "maxed out". You probably also have these digestion bacteria "maxed out" in "every crack and crevice" in your tank as well as the gravel, if you have any, in the bottom of your tank.
There is a minor problem with the above but the results are "absolutely nothing compared to what you are dealing with now"



lgldsr said:


> Algae: although the water color is somewhat green there is very little visible Algae on the tank walls. A few spots here, a few spots there.


I am completely lost here as my experience varies in that the green water should "go away" before a significant reduction in the algae on the tank walls
BUT
you are obviously "doing something(s) very correctly here"!



lgldsr said:


> Lastly, should I be conditioning the water in between these water changes? Should I also be attempting to raise the pH given the frequency of these changes?


What is "conditioning the water"?

IMHO unless the PH has fallen below 6 PhUp or similar products may cause erroneous concentrations of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates to be reported by you tests and should not be used.

TR


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I would really not mess with the PH because with all the water changes it would likely create PH swings which your fish will not fare well through. They have adjusted to your waters PH so I would leave it be unless you are in some emergency kind of level of PH. In which case any PH changes need to happen slowly and you need to deal with the Ph in the water being used to change it as well. Chances are very high that your water out of the tap is within a point of 7 (i.e. it is 6-8). If you are concerned test for it and post results


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