# new to saltwater



## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

hi i am starting up a new 40gal satwater tank, i was reading about cycling it, how do you start this? can i use a filter pad from my freshwater tank, to start this? i don't plan on getting any fish untill the cycle is finished. 

nick


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## Gump (Aug 2, 2006)

Use live rock, live sand, fish, chemical cycle starter. dont use your fw pads.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

Oh jeez. Please, PLEASE read some books about marine aquaria before you just jump in and start one.

40G is really too small to do saltwater if you have no saltwater experience. This is why so many people get out of marine aquarium keeping shortly after they start. They don't read, they start too small and they throw away a lot of money because they didn't study before they tried it!

Then they go tell others how hard it is to keep a marine tank and scares them away from it.

(Sigh)


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

I highly recommend you pick up The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner and read it before you do anything. Its relatively inexpensive and can save you a whole lot of heartache and money in the long run. Then read a few more books and websites, ask SW people here about things, and only THEN will you be prepared to think about starting one IMO.


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

What everyone said above is true. You should do some reading about SW keeping before going into it. I mean after all keeping SW is a big investment and by reading and learning more before you start helps you protect your investment.

Also adding any bacteria from a FW tank wont do much good since the bacteria will shrivel up from water leaving the cells. This happens because the FW bacteria cant live in the hypotonic solution (the SW) due to the fact that the water has salt in it which causes water to be extracted from the bacteria cells causing it to shrivel and die. Its best to add live rock and live sand as means to get your SW aquarium cycled.


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

From what your post says, I can tell you really haven't read up on keeping a saltwater tank. I read up on keeping saltwater for months before i started my tank and i still read up on them today. So the first thing you need to do is read. Once you do that and have anymore question feel free to ask. As for what Gump said, all you need to cycle the tank is Live Rock and Live Sand. Actually you don't even need Live sand for the Rock will see the substarte you choose. I don't agree will using fish for cycling. It is really curl and not needed. If you are using Live rock that is the only thing you need. Some like to jump start the cycling process by using a peice of raw shrimp from the market. I will also have to disagree with reefneck about the 40 being too small. Yes the larger the tank, the easier it is to take care of, but i feel if you read up on saltwater keeping enough you will do great with your 40 gallon. My first tank was a 20 gallon. Anyways, please do some reading though before starting otherwise you will spend lots of money and get nowhere. Search this forum. About.com also has some great articles on keeping a saltwater tank. Nano-reefs.com is another great forum to use as a reseorce. Hopefully this helps a little bit.

Zachary


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

^^^^About.com has an amazing library of articles to start with! Stan and Debbie Hauter are the best!! But start off with them and expand on the things you didnt quite understand. Search on ask.com or go to the non-fiction section of the nearest public library. Trust me the stuff youll be reading is extensive but far from boring.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

CollegeReefer said:


> I will also have to disagree with reefneck about the 40 being too small. Yes the larger the tank, the easier it is to take care of, but i feel if you read up on saltwater keeping enough you will do great with your 40 gallon. My first tank was a 20 gallon.


This is NOT good advice! It is not me you are choosing to disagree with, It is the majority of the experts in marine aquaria! Some people can read for their entire lives and never get the concept of small mistake = big consequences in a small tank. By advising someone that they can do it just by reading you are way off base unless you know the person well.

The experts are the ones that advise no less than 50 gallons for a beginner to start with. Even some experienced aquarists have trouble keeping small tanks successfully. So please, Do not tell people they can do something unless you know the person and are 100% sure they can. Reading does not provide all the things you need to know to keep a small marine tank successfully and sometimes, for some people, even doing it proves too much.


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## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

thank you for all the input. I don't plan on puting the whole sea in there. I just want two fish, some live rock and a few hermit crabs.



Reefneck said:


> Oh jeez. Please, PLEASE read some books about marine aquaria before you just jump in and start one.
> 
> 40G is really too small to do saltwater if you have no saltwater experience. This is why so many people get out of marine aquarium keeping shortly after they start. They don't read, they start too small and they throw away a lot of money because they didn't study before they tried it!
> 
> ...


I don't intend to put any thing in there untill it has finished cycling in that time I will be reading alot about ST. ( I don't intend to torment any living thing) I love fish and the sea. please don't think i am a moron. the one thing reefneck that bugs me is that i asked a few questions and you bit my head of please don't. my intentions are good. 

nick


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Sorry if we might have scared you off there. Talking about living rocks and living sand, how your tank might be too small, look up information here, look up information there. 



STOP.


BREATH.



Okay, the first thing I would do is A) get your tank rolling. Start by adding substrate to the tank, something like argonite sand would be good maybe start with 1-2" which would be around 30-40lbs of sand. Add your salt water and get it to the right specific gravity. Have some powerheads and your choice of filter running (I suggest a protien skimmer like the Coralife Super Skimmer rated for 65 gallons) Wait a day, then add some liverock and letting the tank cycle. 

Now, read. I'd read the suggested, especially the book by Fenner (btw, for now you can skip the whole calcium reator part you won't need that at this point in time and it can be quite confusing) Also www.wetwebmedia.com has some great articles on starting a saltwater tank. Write down questions as you go.

Once you've gotten through that and your cycle is almost complete, come here with those questions.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

By the way... 40 gallons is not a bad tank size... you just have to be a bit more patient, as well as a bit more keen on changes in chemistry. Also, look into sumps to increase your water volume... they can be a real asset without taking up that extra room.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

nickyp91180 said:


> please don't think i am a moron. the one thing reefneck that bugs me is that i asked a few questions and you bit my head of please don't. my intentions are good.
> 
> nick


Ummmm, No. I think if you re read what I typed you won't find many references to "You" and what "You" are doing. You will find many references to "they" and what "they" have done meaning why so many people are afraid of this hobby.

Don't be so quick to accuse me or anyone else of biting your head off when I never once said anything about what you have done. I just get tired of people jumping into this with a tank thats too small, no experience, no reading and no time to mainatin it. Then they (See the they again) tell all their friends how hard it is to keep a marine tank.

I have not bit your head off yet. Don't accuse people lest they might.

So many people do not know how to read typed words without getting offended by them.


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## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

thank you so much fishfirst, for your info and not talking down to me i will do just that right now i have the tank set up and runing i have about 2" of substance in there and the SP is at 1.020. it has been up for a day now and will be ready in about 1 1/2 months i hope  if not i can wait. 

nick


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

looks like you've got one part done already. One thing I'd like to say is your specific gravity is a bit low. I'd raise it to 1.023-1.024, natural sea water is 1.026. Although hydrometers can vary a bit, so if your lfs has a refractometer you can bring in some water to compare readings with yours periodically to check if its running true.

Cycling doesn't tank too long when you add liverock. Check your ammonia and nitrite and nitrates once you get that in your tank. once the ammonia and nitrite is at 0 and there are some nitrates in your tank, you can begin to add to your stock... maybe some inverts or a fish.


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## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

the reading is from hydrometer. now the one thing i am not sure of is that i have read a few things about live rock that you need 1Lb for every gal of water and an other place said 1.4lb for every gal. how much do i need?

nick


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

And I don't just yank my statements out of the air. I really am trying to help prevent someone getting frustrated with too small a tank and leaving the hobby or bad mouthing it!

This is one of MANY sites that back up what I suggest.

http://www.saltwater-fish-tanks.com/starting-a-saltwater-aquarium.php

Coupled with the fact that I have been doing this a while and have a store that sells both FW & SW fish and equipment I didn't just get off the boat yeasterday.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

actually its highly dependent on how much rock YOU want, as well as how dense the rock is. Dense rock means you need a lot more to do the job vs porus rock means you need a lot less. Generallys 1-2 lbs per gallon is fine... 
Rock is a very good way of filtering your tank by the way, so the more that you can get the better in my opinion.


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

reefneck,

I know what the experts say about tank size. Trust me i read a lot about the min. size you need for a tank. But at the same time i have read a lot of "experts" saying that you can have a succesfull tank that is under that mark too. The 50 gallon or higher is what i and others call the "old school" train of thought, where the "new school" train of thought is that bigger is not always better. The hobby has changed so much over the years. There was a time when everyone thought bristle warms where so bad for a tank, and today that really just isn't the case anymore. That is just one exsample. I would write more but i have to run to class.

Zachary


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

lol you gettin' too much info from Nano-reefs.com, callin us old school 

bigger is ALWAYS better, but if you can't afford it, or don't have the space, or some other reason, a smaller tank will suffice.


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## Jonno (May 22, 2005)

hehehe , well i always thought that bigger was better for a beginner so i guess i'm old school?? 

Anyway nicky i think most people have suggested the things i would of said to do, but if you have a spare 10 mins you should check out some of the journals on this board because there are a few really intresting ones regarding setting up a marine tank.


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

fishfirst,

You are right, i did spend to much time on nano-reef which dirrected me to much different lit. then what this forum and about.com did. I am just trying to make the point that 40 gallons should work out just fine for him. I personaly would love ot have a bigger tank, but i am only aloud 20 gallons in the dorm which of course you know ff. I feel though that Reefneck is saying that he couldn't have a succesful tank if it was only 40 gallons and i want him to know he can. Talk about scaring someone away from a saltwater tank. Oh and do agree that bigger is better in the write hands. If you neglect your tank it will crash even if it is above 50 gallons. Hell a 300 gallon tank will crash if you don't know what you are doing. 

Zachary


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

CollegeReefer said:


> fishfirst,
> 
> I feel though that Reefneck is saying that he couldn't have a succesful tank if it was only 40 gallons and i want him to know he can. Talk about scaring someone away from a saltwater tank. Zachary


I think you need to go back and read my posts again. You have totally taken everything out of context!

I'm starting to see why some people are leaving this site. When good advice is given others take it out of context and start trashing the person that was trying to help to begin with.


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

Reefneck said:


> Oh jeez. Please, PLEASE read some books about marine aquaria before you just jump in and start one.
> 
> 40G is really too small to do saltwater if you have no saltwater experience. This is why so many people get out of marine aquarium keeping shortly after they start. They don't read, they start too small and they throw away a lot of money because they didn't study before they tried it!
> 
> ...


If a new person read this, he would read it as he can't do a tank under 50 gallons because he has no saltwater expereince. How can one read it otherwise. I guess it could be read, you can do a 40 gallon tank but it will fail. You can do a 40 gallon tank but you will be throwing your money away. Even looking at it this way, it will tell the new person no to saltwater.

Zachary


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I think, perhaps, it's not so much what was said, but the way it was said. Judging by that guy's post he probably didn't read up very much, but these are questions people have. Before I realized how hard a marine tank would be, I thought it was just like a freshwater with salt water. I could easily have asked 'can I cycle my saltwater with freshwater' or something like that. And I could also think that 40 gallons is sufficient. I mean, I see nanos at the LFS - I could also think that that would be easy to do.

On the other hand, one can definitely benefit from the years (I believe) of opportunity you've had, Reefneck, with marine tanks.

But, perhaps it might be more encouraging to a newcomer to simply state that 40gallons is much more difficult to maintain and too easy to mess up, without the 'tude?



Edit: typo


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

I think everyone is taking posts out of context. And some are misinterpeting passion with attitude. I read and re-read the post by reefneck and yes it could have been sugar coated but the main question is why? I can see how the connotation could be read as an angry person with an attitude but the purpose of the site is to educate and discuss, not berate. If you come looking for "flames" then you could get one out of just about every post. Sure you can do a 40 gallon reef tank successfully. But Reefneck clearly stated that 50 is the minimum you should go with no sw exp. RN also states that reading is key in this field of the hobby. I didn't get anything else out of the post but I wasn't looking for anything (not to say any of you were either).
I guess the point I'm trying to make is lets not make something out of nothing other than what it is. Info for everyone's benefit.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I do agree, Damon. I know nothing about marine tanks but I trust that Reefneck is quite correct and should I ever attempt a marine tank I would definitely go for 100 gallons+ (after all, you can have more fish that way )

But whether all the "sighs" and "jeez"s were necessary, well, I could see how the poor guy, nick, may have been a tad taken aback to get that type of reply ^^


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

Zoe said:


> But whether all the "sighs" and "jeez"s were necessary, well, I could see how the poor guy, nick, may have been a tad taken aback to get that type of reply ^^



Ummm, There was ONE (1) "Jeez" in the first reply and ONE (1) "sigh" in the same reply. None in any others.

The reason those were used because I knew when I offered the advice of 50G or larger for a beginner that I was going to open a can of worms and that others would start telling me I was wrong. Happens all the time.

So sorry if "all the" sighs and jeez's (Total of one each) were too much but you see my assumption of what would happen was 100% accurate. As usual, I got told I am wrong and basically that I know nothing. So I take all my knowledge and bow out of yet another thread because people read things the wrong way.

I have nothing further to add at this time. Start a 1 gallon Pico if you wish. It's not my money or my business.

EDIT: To correct a typo.


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

sorry jake that your thread went this way. I shouldn't got so worked up about it.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I guess the lesson here folks is, there are many ways to set up an saltwater aquarium.
And reefnecks concern is that Nickyp is more likely to fail because of the tank size, which he is right on. Larger tanks = more room for error, which people make a lot of error in the beginning. I too believe that nickyp is at a higher risk of a tank crash, which means that they may end up going out of the hobby. Then again it may not happen and nickyp might get off to a great start... this thread should have been more related to how we can help nickyp. Passion, though good, can't be close minded. 

Lets face it, if nickyp gets a sump (which I illuded to earlier), s(he) could probably surpass the 50 gallon mark, if nickyp willing to take the time, and the effort to maintain a smaller tank, s(he) could be very successful. 

But there are always bumps in the road, and sometimes detours. I've had fish die because I've rushed, or overloaded a tank before... its inevidable to make a mistake... its all in how you take the mistake

either nickyp, quits, or learns from the mistake. So hopefully they can understand that mistakes are going to happen, and its no reason to quit the hobby.







Also I just wanted to add, that I had the pleasure of talking to nickyp in chat, s(he) has come off as not being your typical, "I JUST WANT NEMO" consumer... s(he) is a true hobbiest...


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## Jonno (May 22, 2005)

everyone has different views on how to setup a marine tank , different ways work for different people. Reefneck was only saying that he wouldn't do anything below 40 gals but he didn't say you couldn't do it i have to agree that anything below 40 is much more harder because the volume capicity.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

Thank you FishFirst! You are right on about my intentions. I must say that CollegeReefer did apologize to me in a PM and there are no hard feelings. Just gets frustrating to get jumped so often.

A 40G with a 10-20G sump would amount to over the minimum I was recommending as you said and would be easier to keep stable.

I do hope that the thread starter is successful in whatever he/she decides.

Exactly Jonno! I can't say He/She "Can't" do it. Just stating what would be the optimal scenario. Thanks for your input.

Back to our originally scheduled thread now? 

Keri


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.htmlnickyp,

With you just starting out, a sump would be the way to go. I wish i had a 20 gallon with a 10-20 gallon sump if i was allowed. I think a lot of people are scared of sumps and/or refgiums(spelling is off) because they think they need to drill the tank and what not, but this really isn't the case. You should check out melevsreef ( http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html ) for he has in detail the purpose of a sump and how to set it up without to much hassel. The DIY stuff is very simple. There is a page on this site that show you how to take a 20 gallon tank and turn it into a sump/refgium. It is something to look into. Plus if you want your tank not to be cluttered with the heater and protein skimmer, with a sump it all goes in there bellow the tank and out of site. A sump/ref is the way to go.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

To save money and get some really great ideas for making things for your tanks yourself there is NO better place than the one posted directly above. 

www.melevsreef.com is loaded with great information.


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## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

that site is really good and it gave me a good idear for a sump, and to clear something up i just found out that my tank is not a 40gal its a 80gal lol sorry for the mix up. and the sump is going to be a 30gal. will keep you guys updated on this

nickyp


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

nickyp91180 said:


> idear for a sump
> 
> nickyp


idear? You might just be a Reefneck!  

And 80G will make an awesome saltwater tank!


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## gdwb10101 (Apr 14, 2006)

This may sound strange, almost unheard of, but what if you had a small 5 gallon tank and had a very large sump, like 55g?


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## CollegeReefer (Sep 1, 2006)

gdwb10101 said:


> This may sound strange, almost unheard of, but what if you had a small 5 gallon tank and had a very large sump, like 55g?



why would you want to do that?


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## Jonno (May 22, 2005)

gdwb10101 said:


> This may sound strange, almost unheard of, but what if you had a small 5 gallon tank and had a very large sump, like 55g?


I don't understand what you could gain from this?? Why not just have the 5 gal as a sump?


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Its possible the 55 is not a glass tank but a rubbermaid container? Thats the only thing I can think of.


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## gdwb10101 (Apr 14, 2006)

idk. not relevant to your problem, but if you had a nasty tank that could be hidden, 55, then you could use that as your sump so there is good water capacity, even though there is the illusion of a nano tank.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

lol a 55 gallon as a sump for a 5 gallon would be pretty crazy... but I know a lot of reefers who have more volume behind the tank than the tank itself.


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## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

o.k. i have a question about skimmers i have read all about them and would like to know what type of skimmer is the best? i have herd of the air-driven types and the vortex type. 

nick


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

it really is brand dependant. ASM would be one of my top choices... but something a bit more affordable and yet efficient would be the coralife super skimmer, or the turbofloater.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

I use the coralife superskimmer (needlewheel). Great skimmer. Easy to adjust. Takes a bit longer to mature (mine took 2 weeks) but works like a charm. As a side note, none of the skimmers I've seen work as well in HOT mode.


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## nickyp91180 (Sep 2, 2006)

update: i have had my salt water tank running for month and i have tested my tank and this is what i have got :

PH 8.2
NO2 0.01
NH3/NH4 0
AL is norm

i have bought some live rock and what it came with was a hermit crab, sea sponge, some kelp, and fire coral ( very small ) also a feather duster.

so far so good


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