# Endlers livebearers.... Same species as guppy?



## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I found this on aquaworld.com. It was written by Tony Griffitts, a member of my aquarium club. I decided to copy it down to this thread so that if the site went down, the info would still be here. 

Poecilia wingei reticulata
By Tony Griffitts

In 1997 I was searching the internet for a new livebearer I had seen in my local fish store that were not for sale, called an Endler's Livebearer (ELB). I could only find one reference to it on a message board, and no photos existed on the internet. None of the books in my fish book library had photos or a paragraph on the fish.

Luckily for me, through friends in the pet trade, I was able to track down a couple dozen ELBs from someone that had a breeding colony in one of his planted tanks.

I emailed Dr. John Endler and asked him if I were to send him a photo of the fish I had acquired if he could verify if they are the livebearer named after him by aquarium hobbyist. He verified that they were indeed the fish. I emailed John that I was going to write an article about the fish and post it on the internet. I asked him if he could provide me with his story about the fish and that I would include it in the article. After a few emails back and forth a final article was developed about the Endler's Livebearer and posted on the internet with photos for the first time.

Since then, the popularity of Endler's Livebearer has exploded, with multiple web sites dedicated just for the ELB. Some hobbyist since then have made the trip to Laguna de Patos in Venezuela as well as other locations in the area to collect new wild stock. There are now commercial hatcheries breeding ELBs for the aquarium trade, as well as some hybrids. Unfortunately for the aquarium hobbyist, usually only the male ELB is offered for sale through the trade. The good news is, many local aquarium club members have breeding colonies that they are often willing to share with other hobbyists.

Bad Science

In 2005 Fred Poeser, Michael Kempkes and Isaac Isbrucker published their work in Contributions to Zoology for giving ELB separate species status from Poecilia reticulata (guppy). They gave it a new species name (wingei). Their effort was a lot of work for nothing as it did not pass the peer review test to be accepted as new species. Evidence that ELB was indeed a guppy (Poecilia reticulata) had already been posted on the internet at least a year before they published their work.

ELB meets the criteria for being included as a population guppies. ELB do freely interbreed with other guppies. The cross of ELB with other guppies produces viable offspring that are fertile. Because of this fact, they cannot be a different species from P. reticulata. The definition of a species is a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. In 2004 the California Tiger Endler's Livebearer was published on Aquaworld Aquarium's web site. This article outlined how the breed was developed from a cross between a ELB and a guppy. The hybrid was then line bred until the offspring bred true. This would not have been possible if the ELB and guppy were different species.










Endler's Livebearer is a Subspecies of P. reticulata

There are some obvious physical differences between the ELB and other wild guppy populations that do warrant giving the ELB subspecies status of P. reticulata. ELB do have unique coloration in the geographic region for which they are found. Male ELB do have a more angular body, and smaller caudal peduncle than other populations of guppies. Female ELB are typically slightly more slender than other female guppy populations. ELB does meet the definition of subspecies. Here is the definition for subspecies from Merriam-Webster:

A subdivision of a species: as a : a category in biological classification that ranks immediately below a species and designates a population of a particular geographic region genetically distinguishable from other such populations of the same species and capable of interbreeding successfully with them where its range overlaps theirs.
A named subdivision (as a race or variety) of a taxonomic species.
It is of my opinion that the ELB should be named Poecilia reticulata endleri, in recognition of Dr. John Endler, the man who brought this fish to the attention of the world. This would be the correct classification of the Endler's Livebearer.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I've heard it both ways. That they are just a group of guppies are they are a distant species. That they interbreed does not rule out them being separate species. Where to draw the line between genuses, species, sub species, local populations has always been a source of contention as nature doesn't always fit into a neat boxes. In isolated lakes that were colonized by a single species of fish relatively recently, you are able to see "speciation" in action. 

Personally, I think endler's are a guppy, but I'll wait on the genetic testing to finalize my opinion. But I think they are distinct enough to have a separate common name and for people who breed them with reticulata to call the fry guppy/endler's crosses to keep the "pure" endler's separate. Certainly they are a really nice little fish.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

After thinking it through, I think endlers are a different species. That they breed and the fry aren't sterile doesn't mean that they are the same species. Betta mahachai X splendens and some fancy breeding got us the dragon scale which of course is fertile. They are different species, but they still have fertile fry. There are plenty of cichlids which can interbreed and have fertile young. Peacocks spawned with mbunas have fertile fry. If species means that they can interbreed, that would mean that there is no such thing as a hybrid. Correct? I think that endlers should be in the same complex with guppies, but are not the same species.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> This would not have been possible if the ELB and guppy were different species.


 This statement is false. several species of swords and platies were crossed to get domestic true-breeding strains of platys and swords. They are working on a 'tiger platy" now which likely has input from tiger limia. After a couple dozen generations of mostly culls, a lucky and skilled breeder can get a reasonably stable lineage.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

there are many species of cichlids , catfish and livebearers that are being crossed...
synodontis angelicus and synodontis eupterus are being crossed.....
one of the issues with the endlers is that people keep polluting the gene pool of the separate speaies and also the distinct endler variations causing original variations to become almost extinct....nobody seems to want to maintain pure strains anymore...


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I currently have pure wild endlers. A male and a female. My brother has 9 endlers. 6 males and 3 females. I've heard that the wild endler is going extinct, but the local fish shop that bought my brother's fry paid about 75 cents per fish and put them in a guppy tank which we did not like. I am not really trying to breed them, but they're in clean water, so I have hopes that they'll breed.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I say they're just guppies.
Guppy breeding is a matter of genetic subtraction. You don't add genes to a line to make a new strain. You chisel away the stuff you don't want. the pure fancy strains we have today were created by removing all the genes which would detract from them.

What happens when you mix, say, pure red and blue moscow guppies? ( for a few generations ) Do you get purples? No. You get feeders. When you mix different strains of guppy together, you wind up re-adding once-removed genes, and the more you do this, the more the fish revert back to their natural wild type. 
Endlers are pretty much wild type, but their tribal isolation has resulted in genetic isolation & removal, resulting in fixed strains resembling species. Mixing different strains of endlers together produces what? ( after a few generations )

That's right. Ordinary feeder guppies, indistinguished from the ones you get from mixing fancy guppy strains. I cannot accept that Endlers are a truly separate species.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I want them to do gene testing.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

well then i suggest that you go find the ichthyological scientists and demand that they do the genetic testing...simple as that...all you gotta do..


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

The two actually have two different scientific names. Endlers go by _*Poecilia wingei *_where regular guppys go by _*Poecilia reticulata. *_The difference in the wingei and reticulata are in the Species level of the scientific name. The rest of the levels are identical.
Kingdom: Animalia 
Phylum: Chordata 
Class: Actinopterygii 
Order: Cyprinodontiformes 
Family: Poeciliidae 
Genus:  _Poecilia
_Species: * Different
*
That being said - It is also said that they were given different names for conservation reasons as they are in danger of extinction in the wild, as humans enter their natural habitat, polluting and destroying it. The name Endler is a "pure" bloodline without the selective breeding that regular guppies have undergone to get the designs in color we now have. Similar to the varieties of goldfish all basically coming from carp in the past. Being bread for color and fin and body shape.
Endlers are the "wild" version of this fish. Although now bread in captivity they are typically not messed with genetically. 

I hope this clears up some of the clouds surrounding these wonderful fish.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Right. They were only given this "wingei" name for purely political reasons, which just flies in the face of science. It bugs me to no end.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Loha, can you point me to any scientists? It might be political reasons that they named them wingei, but I still say, SHOW ME THE GENETICS!!!! Which of course I wouldn't understand, but that's why I have you guys.....


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

This has already been done, and the results are just as argued over as the original question.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

yep...it's been done....and the arguing will continue for years....the scientists are always changing fishes names..
kid....find your own scientist..


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Much better idea Betta- Study to be the scientist!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I think it is the same as the Jungle, repackaged. But I can't find what it is in it. "broad spectrum, non antibiotic". 

12 weeks is a good time frame. To be past "cycling" and the incubation period of most store-acquired diseases. Go 3 months and you will be "over the hill" and new problems should be far less frequent.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

That seems random but OK. I guess I'll have to be a scientist. Then I can use environmental issues to my own political party's benefit.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Scientists don't even choose what to study/test, the people who fund them do. Get rich and support a couple grad students to study what ever you want.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Getting rich is already part of my plan. Not likely to happen, but a guy can hope can't he? I think I'll do some more research on it and see what I come up with...


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

your plan for geting rich would most likely be starting a manufacturing company..all engineering will be done in India....all production will be done in China and all products shipped back the the US for jobless americans to not be able to buy them...then you will complain to the government that you are going broke because of the economy and that the government needs top give you 500 million dollars because you need a 450 million dollar bonus for having an American owned company...lol


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

Tax what you don't want, don't tax what you want. That's completely true. Businesses, oil, manufacturing companies, and coal are being taxed. Our president obviously does not want them or doesn't know how to get them to stay. If I do start a big business, it won't be here unless things change. I'd go bankrupt. No use in helping a country that doesn't want to help itself..... Does anyone know any other way to tell the difference between species besides genetic testing?


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

sorry ; but genetic testing is the most accurate way ....but there are other ways..scale count,fin ray,dentition will give general indications...but it is much more complicated than that...

it is obvious that you hate this country....i would suggest you move to china or india and make whatever it is you wish to make and then try to get american prices from the locals there....


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Americans are going to India to start businesses. They having a growing economy with rising wages, so there are potential customers. You are right about incentives making a difference. We should think carefully about every incentive & penalty we write into law. However, when you are trying to balance a budget, you have to tax where the money is. There aren't enough rich individuals and the poor don't have enough income. Exxon Mobil earned 36 billion in a year, so obviously energy is going to be a tax hike target. And while manufacturing and even refining can be moved overseas. Production of oil & gas from under the US ground and coastal waters can't. Spending heavily to influence the election likely got the energy sector a negative return on investment. Shareholders should be angry at the waste.

Did you read about the UK trying to up the tax on google and amazon? So much of the world is having budget trouble, countries are switching from trying to lure companies to trying to tax every entity that does business on their soil. Foreign companies are a popular target. Expect more international anti-dodging tax treaties.

What's this "no use in helping.." nonsense. We are not in the end-times. You have to live here for decades more or go play golf in the Caymans with Bush. Do something for your neighborhood, your town, your church, your country because you are selfish and want to live in a better neighborhood, town, church, country. Don't lock yourself in a gated community and throw away the key because you might accidentally help someone else.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

I love my country. Just my big business that I don't have is not going to save the country. It'll bankrupt me. I personally think we are close to the end times, but that is what most generations have thought, so I'm not too sure. All I know is that the dollar is likely to collapse within the next 4 years and will probably be almost worthless. Gold will be close to worthless too. Food, water, guns, and ammo are what will be valuable. Also, Obama is printing more money. What happens when they make more money? The money in your pocket becomes worth less. Obamacare. Gonna make our country even more broke. Romney had the right idea. Cut funding to organizations the we don't need. Planned parenthood should be #1. KVIE, solar panels (which were a BIG FLOP!), and most of the green energy companies. We have oil and plenty of it. Loha, it's sad, but at the rate our country is going, I probably will be forced to move. On to the streets is more likely than India, but I'd choose India. I personally have noticed that the U.S. is becoming more and more hostile towards christians which is what I am, and persecution is close. The schools are also using propaganda. Highschoolers are taught to dance in an immoral way. I heard that in CA, schools did a gay day. Boys dress in girls clothes, girls dress in boys clothes. That is wrong to do that. Again I say, this country is going down the wrong path. If I could help save my country, I would. I had plans to join the military too. I don't know now because of the way our country is going. No use helping people who won't help themselves is true. 

Back to genetics.... Unfortunately, I don't think I'll be doing genetics testing anytime soon.


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