# Free Speech Under Assault



## Albino_101

Hey guys, at my high school they just put in place a $250 fine for cussing, 250 bucks per word, I know it is good to have rules against bad language in a learning environment with minors, but that is just a violation of free speech in my opinion, what do you guys think?


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## <3~Pleco~<3

Holy Smokes! 250 dollars!!!!!!!
wow, thats getting a little crazy.


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## Albino_101

Yeah, I just don't think they can enforce it, I mean who is gonna pay it anyway.


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## <3~Pleco~<3

That's true. My teachers would have to pay lol


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## Albino_101

Its just my school is mainly built up of kids who have little manners and think that gangsters are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO COOL! So if everyone paid my school wouldn't need federal funding anymore!


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## <3~Pleco~<3

haha good point


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## Albino_101

Want to just join me in chat ill be there?


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## lohachata

i think they should make it $250 first offense..$500 second offense and $1000 for third offense.expulsion without the benefit of getting a diploma..
when one gets really angry about rules and laws and makes all kinds of excuses to violate them; it show that they have a total lack of respect for others and themselves..
i remember when my daughter laid a few choice swearwords on me when she was about 12 or 13...she got to taste the hottest peppers in the world..
at some point i think that removal of the tongue would be appropriate.


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## <3~Pleco~<3

lohachata said:


> i remember when my daughter laid a few choice swearwords on me when she was about 12 or 13...she got to taste the hottest peppers in the world..
> at some point i think that removal of the tongue would be appropriate.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
EDIT: my grandma washed my mothers mouth out with soap.


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## Albino_101

Ha, thats paradise, compared to my cousin having to eat my uncle's famous hot sauce, so far only he and myself can withstand it, for my cousin it was like fire inside the mouth, If I remembered correctly his tongue blistered.


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## <3~Pleco~<3

ooooo the hot stuff is a popular weapon i see.


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## emc7

Swear words are like foul odors. They don't kill you but your day is nicer without them. Chlidren need to learn that they are capable of controlling their own behavior. Teach this skill in school and the graduate won't be fired from his first job for cussing at the boss.

If you offered $250 to the student who went the longest without cussing, no one would complain. .. Well someone might complain you violated their privacy by actually listening to them. It would be surprising if any of our schools are staffed well enough to actually enforce this. If you listened to every word kids say you'd hear bullying, cheating, sexual harassment, suicidal depression, and Columbine-style attack planning. You'd almost have to go to software with voice recognition and content filtering like they use to hunt for terrorists on the net. Or you could do something even more radical, insist on quiet in the classrooms.


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## lohachata

the hot sauce that i make is not the hottest on the market by any means.it is only about 500,000 scovil units...possibly a bit more but not much...but far more important than the heat is the flavor...and that is why i have shipped it to many places around the world. i could kick it up to 1,000,000 or more ; but i would be concerned about the flavor..there are extracts out there that are rated at 16,000,000 SU....that would make a deadly hot sauce ; but it would taste nastier than you could imagine..
i don't care for hot stuff anyway..i just make it.
hmmmmmm..gives me an idea...


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## emc7

I don't think cussing is protected speech. The opposite is true. We are protected from cussing. If you call me a B*tch at work I can call the EEOC and sue you for creating a 'hostile work environment'. I don't think its right that 13 year old girls should have to put up with behavior from classmates like cussing and groping that adult women won't tolerate.


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## lohachata

emc....i agree 100%...actually i am pretty nice about things..if somebody called my nephew a nasty name ; he would gut em like a fish.
there are a lot of boys out there (regardless of age) ; that think it is ok to be rude and crude around ladies..it is not...young boys that think it is ok to go around groping girls need some of their fingers removed..


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## flamingo

Oddly enough, some underage fines, etc. are less then that...


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## Albino_101

When they try kids as kids and not as adults, they are just protecting them from what happens in the adult world when instead of a slap on the wrist you do serious jail or possibly state "take it in the rear" prison. So all it does is teach kids that they can either get away with it or just take the light punishment.

Honestly punishments should be severe to get their parents angry at the kids, like the parents must pay the fine or the kid doesn't graduate for one more year or gets expelled if a repeat offender and the parents were relying on them to go to college and make money


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## Buggy

Two students are walking down the hall. Student #1 decides to exercise his/her "freedom of speech" and let fly a few choice foul words. Student #2 is unaware that this is going to happen and is denied the right to avoid hearing them. Thus, student #1 has violated student #2's rights. So, whose "rights" get to take top priority here?

If we are allowed to use our "freedom" rights to excuse every inappropriate action we choose to display, then we would all be acting like disgusting, uneducated beastes (which is exactly the way some people DO act). Having the "right" to do something and being "right" in doing it are two entirely different things. Yes, you have the right to do whatever you wish BUT for some things you must be willing to pay the consequences for doing it. Then, it's up to you whether or not you think it's worth the price. Would it be within a persons "rights" to walk down the sidewalk in town naked? That could be seen as "freedom of expression". But others have rights too and your rights end where another persons rights begin. If you want to cuss, go for it. But as soon as those words reach someone elses ears, you have violated THEIR rights. You have the choice of whether or not you want to excercise your rights of freedom of speech but you have taken away the other persons rights of whether or not they want to hear it. So it is only fair that you should have to decide if you want to pay a price for violating another persons rights. See, no one is physically preventing you from saying those words (you have the "right" to do so) so no freedom rights have been violated. 
You have the right to say anything you want about another person, but if the things you choose to say are not true, then you pay the consequences for liable and slander. 
The school is not saying that the student will be prohibited from using foul language, only that they will have to pay a price if they choose to do so. 
However, I don't feel that a monitary price is appropriate for the offense. This is likely to put a severe burden on the parents who have little control over what their kids say when they are not around to control it.
The penalty should be directed towards the student and be made harsh enough that the student will not want to do it again. Or, set the fine at $250 but make the student work off the fine with after school work such as picking up trash, moping floors, emptying garbage cans...and a week of solitary isolation during lunch period. Take away the offenders PRIVILAGES and they will be more apt to respect and care for their RIGHTS.


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## COM

I don't really believe in the concept of "bad" words. Words are just words...

That said, free speech isn't an issue here. You have a constitutional right that guarantees that the Federal government cannot prevent you from speaking your mind. Anyone else can certainly try to do so legally. As for 'privacy,' that word doesn't occur anywhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights to my knowledge, so you actually don't have any specific right to it.


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## emc7

Words are powerful. They can cheer, encourage, depress, annoy, aggravate. Some people are more sensitive to words than others. I liken it to cigarette smoke. Some people don't mind cussing, some are mildly annoyed, some it causes something like pain to. And everyone's right to clean air is more important than the smoker's right to pollute. Send them to a cussing section away from the rest of us.

I'm not sure you can make a list and say these words are bad and all the rest are ok. But you can certainly say this a list of words we don't want to hear in school. The high fine bothers me only in that it will surely be applied selectively. Not everyone who says the words will have to pay. I think schools should try to be fair, even though life isn't. This strikes me as a tool for administraters desperately trying to get some respect for their authority and knowing it will never happen unless when students can call them vile names to their face and not be punished. 

Courts have held that students in schools have virtually no rights. Administrators and their agents can search you and your possessions at any time for little cause. 

Buggy's right about the disgusting behavior of people exercising their freedom in public. I don't believe we need have big brother telling us to put some clothes on, clean up our languages, and stop pissing in the bushes. Why don't we control ourselves? Have we so little self-control and respect for other people that we need a government like Singapore's to cane us for spitting gum on the sidewalk? Why didn't we learn to behave when we were in kindergarten?

COM you are right about privacy. All the supreme court rulings based on a right to privacy are legislating from the bench. But I'd like to see this part "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" enforced.


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## Tallonebball

The only speech that is not allowed under our constitutional government is false slander that hurts someones reputation, speech that causes a riot, speech that puts other people in danger (such as falsely yelling fire in a crowded movie theatre), and speech that undermines americas government.

Offensive speech s actually protected and this fine isn't a violation of freedom of speech because they are not making you not say those words, they are just punishing you if you do. Punishment for offensive speech is perfectly fine.


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## ChromeLibrarian

> Student #2 is unaware that this is going to happen and is denied the right to avoid hearing them.


Which part of the constitution outlines student #2's right to not be offended?



> Offensive speech s actually protected and this fine isn't a violation of freedom of speech because they are not making you not say those words, they are just punishing you if you do.


Actually, in the strictest sense, it is a violation, since it would have a chilling effect on the student's vaguely existent right to swear. 

The school is being dumb. They should be having the kids arrested and prosecuted under disturbing the peace statutes, which almost certainly exist in the area. No attack on speech, since swearing is not being singled out.


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## emc7

Too many rights, not enough manners. People go to malls instead of parks and private school instead of public because the private place has the ability to throw people out. Downtown Atlanta has a beautiful park near college campuses where no students go because they get cussed at by bums if they don't give them money and drunks are sleeping on all the benches. Apparently you can't discriminate who uses public land. It would be better if you could. Young children and their caregivers only on the playground, no drug dealers or smoothing couples. Stuff like that.


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## Tallonebball

In the "strictest sense" anything can be a violation.


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## <3~Pleco~<3

lol isn't winking sexual harassment?


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## ChromeLibrarian

> In the "strictest sense" anything can be a violation.


Yes. When dealing with the constitution, you must use the strictest sense. Bone-headed vague interpretations are the root cause of a lot of stupid things in our society.


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## Blue Cray

The person who runs your school needs a beating imo this is BS.


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## Tallonebball

No the constitution was made vague so that it could apply to everyday life, even decades later. It is not meant to be used in the strictest sense because it is meant to protect, not to convict.


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## Albino_101

In my opinion, the fine is okay as long as it isn't abused to the point of the power for the school to expel you if you are dragged into it like fighting at my school, for example: I am walking down the hall minding my own business, some one attacks me, if I don't hit back I am not in trouble but maybe dead or brain dead, but If I hit back even once in complete self defense and they can prove I did, I would be sent to an alternative high school for "fighting" which our school has an absolute zero tolerance policy of.


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## emc7

I get that they are trying to get control of the situation by all possible means. It sucks that high school is like prison. Its something you survive until you can get out. And it must suck to be trying to control 2000 strong, healthy teenagers with a handful of little old ladies.


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## COM

Hey, I'm not that old, but I will say that "in my day" we had a lot more decorum and discipline (at least at the school that I went to). There were no fines for bad language, but we certainly did not say anything even remotely questionable. Why? Well, one, we were taught that it wasn't the way that proper, educated people spoke, and two, using foul language would ensure an unpleasant conversation with the Dean of Discipline.

Furthermore, we all knew better than to wear inappropriate clothing. Show up for school in a Jack Daniels t-shirt and you would soon be picking a replacement outfit from that same dean's "magic clothes bag." Wear cutoffs? Go home and change, then serve 5x your missed class in detention.

We seem to have lost the concept of 1) repetitively teach the right way and reinforce it, then 2) provide embarrassing and/or unpleasant punishment for those who don't comply. Somehow my whole class survived this, achieved 100% college placement in the top tier colleges and universities, and no one had any complaints... seems like we need to go back to the good old days of the late 1990s.


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## ron v

It all boils down to being courteous and respecting other people. Some people have it and some don't.


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## ChromeLibrarian

> No the constitution was made vague so that it could apply to everyday life, even decades later.


The constitution is not vague in the least. It means exactly what it says. The founding fathers were very careful in how they wrote it. The problem is the people who want it to be vague, so that they can "invent" a way to ignore it.


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## emc7

> It means exactly what it says


I agree. If we don't like it, we should change it. But I'm sure the founding fathers never imagined that anyone would say some of the thing that are being protected as 'free speech'. In that time, those words would result in a duel and a gunshot wound.


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## Albino_101

emc7 said:


> In that time, those words would result in a duel and a gunshot wound.


That's my kind of time!!!


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## shev

Is it a private or public school? I see no way that is going to get enforced in a public school. In a private school however, that'd be easily enforced through a contract. If they wish not to respect it and not pay the fine, the school wouldn't really have any legal route of getting it, but it could just kick them out. Problem solved. 

Like what was already said, this isn't an issue of "free speech". Kind of like this forum, it's privately owned, I have no right to "free speech" here. They can censor whatever they please. Are they infringing on your "right" to bear arms when they don't let you bring a gun to class?(I know, there's legislation going around to allow guns in schools, i was just making a point)

Personally, I have no problem with swear words. I give kids a little more credit than most, they aren't that weak minded and I wouldn't expect them to repeat everything they hear. They should know better. I for one am not a big cusser in any sense of the word, even from the stricter types. Just wouldn't be too befitting. However, one time a teacher did get mad after I said "friggin". That's not a cuss word in my book, that's a pseudo cuss word, like, "crud" instead of "crap". Which does however bring up the question of why people are offended by such trivial things...


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## Toshogu

asdfasfasdfasdf


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## Toshogu

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

In no way shape or form are you being prohibitted in voicing your opinion or belief. Or are you being rendered unable to pettition your grievances, by having cuss words fined. It may be alittle more difficult to word what you are thinking without cussing but if you try hard enough I'm sure you would be able to.

Censorship of Public Airwaves. It's always been a contentious issue in America with CPA vs. 1st.Amend. but so far as the Supreme Court is concerened there is no violation. Because as I stated, banning the use of cuss words does not harm your abbillity to voice your opinion, belief, or prevent you from airing grieviances.

Also being of a "Minor Status" you are afforded more and less protections from a constitutional standpoint. You cannot sign any binding agreement. You can sign the paper but if it's taken to court it means squat. I believe up untill the age of 14yrs old you can not commit a crime because you are not considered mentally fit to do so. (i.e. you manage to stab and kill someone at age 10. you ain't going to jail). And a whole bunch of other things written into our laws that have been placed there for your proctection from being exploited or neglected by adults. Also stuff in the bill of rights really doesn't apply to you either because of the "Minor Status". It's not until you are 18yrs. old that the full weight and protection of the constitution and bill of rights comes to bear.

Time for you to sit down and really study and understand what are the greatest words/ideas ever to grace this world. "The Declaration of Independance", "The Constitution", "The Bill of Rights".

Also the 1st Amendment is important because of it's anti establishment clause. "seperation of church from state, and state from church" It's to protect both from each other and us from the establishment of a state religion, and religious state. A great example of what happens when a people allow the lines of religion and state to get blurred are Iran, and the Taliban.

The right wing Anti-abbortion movement is a great example of a group of citizens that want to blurr the line between church and state by trying to force thier religious beliefs on the rest of us through our goverment.


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## bmlbytes

Toshogu said:


> Also the 1st Amendment is important because of it's anti establishment clause. "seperation of church from state, and state from church" It's to protect both from each other and us from the establishment of a state religion, and religious state. A great example of what happens when a people allow the lines of religion and state to get blurred are Iran, and the Taliban.


The separation of church and state is never actually said or referred to in the constitution. The only thing that is stated, is the fact that our government can not make a law favoring or forbidding any religion.


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## Albino_101

WOW! Constitution quoters are no different than people who quote the bible, at least have your own ideas.


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## bmlbytes

Lol. I was just pointing it out. A lot of people think that statement is from the constitution, when in actuality, it came from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote about the first amendment.


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## emc7

I thought this was interesting http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-odd/20090911/US.ODD.Cursing.Law/ Does your town have an anti-profanity law?


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## Shaggy

Hmmm, so everyone here is missing the point. Why are you all blaming the schools? Why does every parent blame schools?? Its these lazy ass parents of the kids that cause all the problems in the first place. They don't teach their kids respect for adults or anyone that cause all these problems. Its these dumbass parents that cause all of these issues. So now, these lazy parents(that blame everything on schools, governent, blah, blah) are saying that the schools aren't doing what they need to do, when in reality, its the parents that don't know what the hell they are doing. The country has gone to crap when it comes to parenting...


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## emc7

No school can really control 2000 pupils. The pupils need to control themselves. So that does go back to the parents and possibly kindergarten. Respect and empathy for others is a very early skill. And self-discipline is learned through being disciplined for bad behavior. All parents should go to parenting class. It will take a generation to fix this even if we teach all expectant parents. So what do you do in the meantime?

To lock innocent, decent kids in with even a few out of control A-wholes is IMO cruel punishment for being in a certain age group. So to get the troublemakers, schools are using policies like 'zero tolerance' that look good on paper but have unintended consequences. They catch kids with forgotten lawn tools in their car, kids who bring wine as a gift for a teacher, kids who wear clothes with dangling chains, and girls who give another girl midol for cramps and then have to defend against expensive law-suits from indignant parents. Meanwhile, half the school can know a student has a gun, but not report it because they are afraid of him. 

Schools act 'in loco parentis' and are supposed to do the parents job of at least keeping kids safe for a few hours a day. But they aren't allowed to punish like a parent would. Sitting in 'in-school detention' instead of class, getting suspended. Some punishment, more like a vacation. What incentive is there to behave is you don't care if you graduate? The difference between high school and even the worst college is like night and day. In college, the ones who don't want to be there can leave. And the ones the school doesn't want get thrown out.

My beef isn't with the schools per se, they are doing the best they can with the tools they have. Really bad textbooks and state and federal mandates of what they must do don't help anything. Its more anger at the whole system. Why send everyone to 7 hours in purgatory and give them 3 hours of homework to learn two hours worth of material? You could argue that this prepares students an adult life of tedious employment. But IMO, it just teaches idleness and passiveness. You get in trouble for doing math homework in English class and vice versa or working in the library instead of eating lunch in the gym. You learn to do what you are told and only that and sit around and kill time waiting for the bell to ring. The system is broken. We throw more and more money at it but fall further behind the rest of the world.

I look forward to future online high schools that are like today online colleges. Where every student can watch lectures, do assignments and interact only with other students they choose to know and avoid the distractions of students that torment other students just to pass the time. 

Home school is big in Georgia. They can cover all the material in the book before lunch and enjoy the afternoon. You don't save all that much time by skipping science (have to fit in the bible study) and these kids do fine on standardized tests. Modern high schools are not efficient educators as they spend the day counting students, moving students, trying to keep them from killing each other and teaching only at the level and pace of the slowest kids in the group. Schools settle for being satisfied if the students don't kill each other and I believe we should aim higher. No child left behind should send some on ahead, make some wait for the next bus, and leave some on the side of the road for the sake of the rest. Kids kill themselves because they are bullied and no one stops it. Here a kid was beaten to death after school by a bully at the bus stop. Smart kids graduate from the best public high schools in the state and after four years of being bored to tears but aren't prepared for basic college tasks such as managing ones own time. 

All this standardized testing is useless unless you do something with the data. Other countries sort students by aptitude, we sort them by geography.


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## Albino_101

My point exactly emc7, I mean look at china, school is not mandatory so only kids who want to learn and get ahead in life do so, so all the kids going there are there to learn, not to sit in a desk for 4 years because someone said they had to. Our government shouldn't force everyone to go to high school, just up to the 8th grade so they have literacy skills. Then there would be much more "funding" and scholarships for students who do care about their futures. Our government tries too hard to be better than everyone else, and all it does is make us look even more silly, maybe a fear of poverty and hunger would motivate out students more. And yes shaggy, our parents are horrible, they expect the schools and the feds to take care of their children, and complain when something bad happens to their child, instead of owning up as a parent.

EDIT: The reason I titled this thread "free speech under assault" was that it might eventually lead to a fine for saying words that are true but make the government look bad, A "free speech" tax if you will.


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## lohachata

and who is going to support all of those lazyass slugs that don't want to go to school because they are already secure in the knowledge that they have all the education they will ever need ;who will also not want to work either....maybe we could send them to china...would you give them a job with your company...,i wouldn't.
i totally agree shaggy....our schools work hard to educate our children..but their efforts are constantly thwarted by ignorant lazy parents.


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## emc7

Factories. I was reading how putting 12 year olds in factories was now considered wrong and I thought, why? A 12 year old is quite capable and if the alternative to school was physical labor, students might actually care if they got thrown out of school. This decade long gap between when a child is capable of doing useful things and when we actually expect them to be productive teaches lessons in idleness and time-wasting that are hard to unlearn.


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## ron v

A high school diploma should be a requirement to apply for a drivers license and it should be a requirement for anyone to apply for any sort of government assistance check!


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## Toshogu

bmlbytes said:


> The separation of church and state is never actually said or referred to in the constitution. The only thing that is stated, is the fact that our government can not make a law favoring or forbidding any religion.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" can not establish a state religion or forbid a religion. A seperation of church from state, and state from church. You're parsing words here. And anti-abortion is a two pronged attack on our rights of citizens. 1.) on the keeping church out of state. 2.) infringement on our privacy.

"WOW! Constitution quoters are no different than people who quote the bible, at least have your own ideas."

If you understand the immense importance and signifigance of the Constitution of America you wouldn't make such an uninformed statement. Stick your nose in a book and understand the historical context of how it came about, and how many thousands of years of human history it took to finally put into words alittle of the truth that god has meant humanity as a whole to see 

"We hold this truth to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among this are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To secure this right governments are instituted among men, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed"

Through out history you see flickers of this here and there, but until the birth of this nation it has never been illuminated in words so clearly. the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are a further and more specific illumination of the god given rights that all people on this planet should be able to enjoy.

As for why it is imperative for every citizen of America to recieve an education. Through out man's history if you want to control a people, to enslave them you deny them an education. It's simple plain unadulterated truth. Feudalism and the Catholic church relied on that fact during the medievil period to keep control. Thier strangle hold wasn't broken until translations of the latin were available and the population of people able to read and write were of a sufficiant lvl. If that didn't happen England would have never been able to break away from the church. In England they began to educate thier populace. If they didn't Protestants, Anglicans, Baptists would have never left for America. During America's recent (less than 100yrs) history we kept Blacks dumber than rocks through the period of slavery and up until the civil rights movement so they would never truely be freemen. Mandatory education of the populace is what has allowed a Black American to raise himself to the highest position in this country. Without it he would never have had his chance to reach for the stars.


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## Toshogu

ron v said:


> A high school diploma should be a requirement to apply for a drivers license and it should be a requirement for anyone to apply for any sort of government assistance check!


My friend that is a teacher in LAUSD came up with a great idea that would never get passed (cause people suck) but it blew me away how simple and great it was.

He proposed "Students that get good GPA's in school get thier family a tax break".

The problem with the highschool diploma requirement is that there are people in America that are just plain dumb. It's a matter of genetics should parents of these children be penalized? Should the dumb child be penalized because he is just that dumb? What about people that have dumb children that don't need government assistance? why aren't they being penalized?

Unfortunatly the law as you propose it would discriminate against the stupid/infirm/tarded.


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## emc7

Mandatory opportunity, but why mandatory education? and why everyone together in same building?


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## Toshogu

emc7 said:


> Factories. I was reading how putting 12 year olds in factories was now considered wrong and I thought, why? A 12 year old is quite capable and if the alternative to school was physical labor, students might actually care if they got thrown out of school. This decade long gap between when a child is capable of doing useful things and when we actually expect them to be productive teaches lessons in idleness and time-wasting that are hard to unlearn.


Because unfortunatly a majority of adults can not be trusted not to abuse the children. Have you forgotten the horrors of the Industrial Revolution in America?


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## Toshogu

emc7 said:


> Mandatory opportunity, but why mandatory education?


As for why it is imperative for every citizen of America to recieve an education. Through out man's history if you want to control a people, to enslave them you deny them an education.

We do this so that the light of Freedom will never burn out in America. It may grow dim at times but so long as we make sure that every generation that comes gets a decent basic education. We will never have to repeat the horrors, the blood, the wars of our ancestors. 

An uneducated person is a slave. Tho there are always exceptions to the rule, when was the last time you encountered a really smart street level hooker or even heard of one?

Heidi Fliess is an exception to the rule and is only 1 out of millions.

Epictetus: 
"We must not believe the many, who say that only free people ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that only the educated are free. "

Henry Steele Commager: 
"Change does not necessarily assure progress, but progress implacably requires change. Education is essential to change, for education creates both new wants and the ability to satisfy them."

Lord Brougham: 
"Education makes a people easy to lead, but difficult to drive; easy to govern, but impossible to enslave."


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## Toshogu

lohachata said:


> and who is going to support all of those lazyass slugs that don't want to go to school because they are already secure in the knowledge that they have all the education they will ever need ;who will also not want to work either....maybe we could send them to china...would you give them a job with your company...,i wouldn't.
> i totally agree shaggy....our schools work hard to educate our children..but their efforts are constantly thwarted by ignorant lazy parents.


exactly


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## Toshogu

Also another reason why it's imperative for America to make sure every child has a basic education and the opportunity to succeed is because it's a game of statistics. Every child we educate we roll a dice and see if an American Genius is born. Maybe that child will grow up and cure cancer, cure aids, eliminate hunger, discover FTL travel, manipulate gravity, world peace, usher in a golden age. 

Tho this may also be used as an arguement for anti-abortion the citizens right to privacy and the seperation of church and state trump this. It's a reality that is vs. a reality that maybe. Shrodinger's Cat.


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## emc7

Did you see the movie "Idiocracy"? It was really scary. Future people were not uneducated, just really stupid. Doesn't there need to be some punishment for having stupid children? To restore Darwinism to our species before we get stupid enough to wipe ourselves out. Right now the only large predators we have to 'cull the herd' are motor vehicles ("he just ran out in front of me") and police ("we told him to put the gun down").

I think eduction is a privilege, not a right. You should forfeit that privilege if you commit a felony, assault another student, etc. 

And proof of education should be a 'get out of school free card'. If you can pass the GEDs in 8th grade, you should be given what high school costs toward your college education.


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## Toshogu

emc7 said:


> Did you see the movie "Idiocracy"? It was really scary. Future people were not uneducated, just really stupid. Doesn't there need to be some punishment for having stupid children? To restore Darwinism to our species before we get stupid enough to wipe ourselves out. Right now the only large predators we have to 'cull the herd' are motor vehicles ("he just ran out in front of me") and police ("we told him to put the gun down").
> 
> I think eduction is a privilege, not a right. You should forfeit that privilege if you commit a felony, assault another student, etc.
> 
> And proof of education should be a 'get out of school free card'. If you can pass the GEDs in 8th grade, you should be given what high school costs toward your college education.



But for this you have to go back to California's recent history you're talking about is very similar to the "Eugenics movement of the early 1900's" (read about it and then read stuff on Hitler's policies. you'll see a link between the two) And dude let me tell you that **************** is even scarier than slavery. What you are say and advocating for is a form of ethnic/racial/hereditary discrimination/cleansing. Can you imagine the can of worms this can possibly open especially with the DNA anaysis tools we have now? What about those with diabetes? What about people with Glasses? What about people that have sicklecell anemia? or predispositions toward cancer?

Education is a right of a free people. READ YOUR HISTORY the stupider the population the higher the crime. Time and time again crime is a cause of lack of upwards mobility, lack of upwards mobility is the cause of lack of education. I'm not saying education will stop all crime, cause that just can't happen. But an educated populace is a safer populace. You take a kid and tank his chances of moving upwards cause he don't have an education, he's gonna go and mug someone rape murder pillage cause he can't get a decent job with the possiblility of moving upwards. Look at the crime numbers and how they corrolate with drop out rates.


Read this book this it will scare the absolute jeebers out of you. http://books.google.com/books?id=4T8sKI4cx_wC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=castration+of+the+insane,+california&source=bl&ots=9Jv4Ut03CZ&sig=2PQGfr-bNMYOoJKI0TWIxmSAFQQ&hl=en&ei=m0ixSvndAZDOsQPptNS4Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=castration%20of%20the%20insane%2C%20california&f=false This is our history, this is a path in which America fell down worse than that of the Japanese concentration camps, worse than Gitmo, we fell right in line with the Nazi's. My head shakes, my soul cries, to think we went down this road hand in hand with the Nazi's and to think!!! 

Dear lord strike this nation down with all your wrath and vengence spare not a single soul, burn us down to our very foundations and cast us all to hell TO HELL ALL OF US! Sinners and Saved alike. If we allow our selves to walk down that path again.


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## Toshogu

If you think I'm making anything up in that book or it's BS. PLEASE I beg you research, ask your teachers, ask your professors, goto the library, find more online. Do what ever you need to do to corroborate that this is information is true. And never forget!

<- is japanese american


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## Toshogu

Then again The founder of Planned parenthood is a Eugenicist. Abortion is such a complicated subject and it can't be all solved in one go. So long as abortion is only a choice made by the woman and no one else it can be done. At the same time before you get abortion you should be required to take a class so your are well informed of all the options available to you.

If we ban abortion we need to provide better sex education in our schools condoms and birth control should be made free of charge by the government. Morning after pills should be made over the counter. Also we will need to pour ALOT of money into the child support system. And I doubt we would put money into the child support system as we can't even find it in our hearts to makes sure every American has health insurance.


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## emc7

Wow, we've really gotten off topic. Here's my take on abortion. It should be safe, legal, and incredibly rare. Its morally wrong in most circumstances, but should not be illegal. No one should have control over my body but me. Birth control and sex education should be easily available. There is this myth that if we withhold information and birth control from 'innocent' children, they won't have sex. But the school systems with 'abstinence only' have the highest teen birth rates in the country and high rates of STDs. Places such as Romania that outlawed abortion ended up with orphanages full of abandoned children and they didn't do a good job caring for their charges.


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## <3~Pleco~<3

I think having an abortion is the same as murder.


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## emc7

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## emc7

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## <3~Pleco~<3

I can't speak for any one other than myself, but I know that my conscience would not allow me to kill a living being (no matter the age).


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## emc7

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## emc7

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-odd/20090916/US.ODD.Pittsburgh.Human.Waste/ Right to poop in public under attack. Hm, its not lewd or disorderly, why not littering?


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## Albino_101

Wow this thread got off topic! can a moderator or admin lock this thread please.


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