# Question about cycling with Stability



## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

I've been trying to do a fishless cycle on a 29 gallon for 3 weeks with pure ammonia. I've been keeping the ammonia in the tank about 3-4ppm, temp about 81, well aerated, etc, but I still haven't gotten any nitrite reading. So I decided to try using Stability to see if that would cycle it. I added the initial dose today, but my question is should I keep adding ammonia to the tank if I see the ammonia decrease and nitrite increase? There are no fish in the tank. Thanks.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

You want to keep adding the same amount of ammonia. Right now you add a certain amount of ammonia to the tank to keep it at 3 ppm. Keep adding that same amount, but no not check to make sure if it is at 3 ppm. 

For instance, if you are adding a teaspoon a day (just an example) to keep it at 3 ppm keep adding a teaspoon, but do not add more if it goes lower than 3 ppm. If it goes higher than 3, then make sure you dont add any more until it goes down.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

The thing is, in all of the three weeks I've been trying to cycle the tank, I have not had to keep adding the ammonia unless I've needed to top off the tank from water evaporation. It's as if I can't get the cycle to start at all. But I think I understand your point. I'll check it tomorrow and see what the ammonia reading is and add accordingly if it decreases.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

drain the tank and clean it..then refill it and add the stability..let it run for about 2 hours and add 2 or 3 fish...you should be cycled in about a week..


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Please check the PH of your tapwater.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

pH is 7.4 out of the tap, however after sitting out for 24 hours it increases to 8.4 and stays stable there. My KH is 15, my GH is 22 so I'm not having any pH crashes. Everything has been very stable. Nothing in the tank except water, heater, filter, thermometer and bubble bar. The only thing I've added to the water besides pure ammonia is Prime to dechlorinate.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Perfect.

Do not keep adding ammonia; that's best done for ordinary fishless cycling. If you already have 3-4, you might have too much already. In fact, that could be part of your problem; too-high ammonia hurts the bacteria, too, which is why Loha suggested the massive water change. 
The stability should take about two days to kick in and then it will take about another two days to get rid of that ammonia, and by day 3 or 4 you should start to see a trace of nitrate. After that you're home free and can add fish once the ammonia and nitrite are gone.
You add Stability every day for a week, of course.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Just another comment on the Stability.
I gave a 15 gallon tank to someone and recommended the Stability to them. this is week 3 that they are cycling the tank using it. They still have a small ammonia reading.
They started the tank from a "cold" start.I scrubbed the tank out before giving it to them because I had used the tank for quarantine.
I offered them plants but Big Al's told them not to add plants until the fish had settled in.
Ph here is over 8.
Last week they added a few pieces of java fern and moss that I sent them via their mom.
the tank I am cycling for a betta is doing ok from a cold start plus 2 small bits of java and a small piece of old filter pad.
So I wonder-- Stability seems to work more efficiently when you have an old bit of pad in the filter and when you start it on day 1.
I do not consider it to be working all that well if they are on week 3 and still have ammonia.
I wish I were at their house to do my own monitoring. And yes they are using Prime.
Wouldn't it be nice if Stability worked like Bio spira was said to?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Prime is messing up your readings. Prime always messes up ammonia readings. does that tank have n2? or n3? if the tank has 0 n2, and a little bit of n3, then the tank is cycled


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

My ammonia is around 2-4ppm (I have a hard time distinguishing between the two shades of green on the test card representing 2 and 4ppm). I've been reading about the fishless cycle and most sources have said go as high as 5ppm ammonia, but I was a little worried that maybe that was too high for the bacteria to grow. Should I do a water change to bring down the ammonia before adding more doses of stability or should I continue on with my existing water now that I've started adding it? 

Still 0 nitrites. My nitrate reading is 5ppm, but my tap water has 5ppm nitrates (probably due to farm waste run-off) so I don't think that is any indication of a cycle happening.


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

5ppm nitrate out of the tap is unusable water in my opinion.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm not happy about the nitrate in my water, but it is what it is here in farm country. The EPA allows up to 10ppm nitrate in "safe" drinking water. 

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/basicinformation/nitrate.html


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Its not unusual, just kind of unnerving. Most of the fish that live in that pH can handle that much nitrate easy. I suppose you could use one of those nitrate-eating "cichllid substrates" if you had money to burn and sensitive fish to protect. That sort of water is good for your teeth (the calcium carbonate, not the nitrate)

I wouldn't go any higher with ammonia. Stability contains multiple strains of bacteria including some that are supposed to handle very high levels. But, IMO, the purpose of cycling a tank is to get a nice culture that will take ammonia levels down from moderate to 0. IMO cultivating bacteria that prefer >5 ppm ammonia is just wasting time since you never want to see that number when you have fish in the tank. If you go ahead and change water, try to hold in the 1-2 ppm range, if it gets too low, you starve them and you start over.


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## aspects (Feb 1, 2009)

as long as the nitrate doesnt go over 40ppm youre fine. all tap water will show some kind of nitrate reading. its not unusual. its best to stay away from any chemical filtration or products that claim to reduce or remove ammonia. these things will only further stall your cycle. 
keep up with your regular (daily) WC, and build a good healthy colony of bacteria.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

you can use all of the magic cycling products on the market...but not a single one of them will provide you with the long term stability of a tank that is naturally cycled.zoos ; public aquariums and the like do not use products such as biro spira or stability..they set up a tank and put a few fish in it and let it cycle.
they do not use ammonia of chunks of shrimp either.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

pinetree said:


> I'm not happy about the nitrate in my water, but it is what it is here in farm country. The EPA allows up to 10ppm nitrate in "safe" drinking water.
> 
> http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/basicinformation/nitrate.html


wow-- in my town nitrate must be below 1 to satisfy safety requirements


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Toshogu said:


> Prime is messing up your readings. Prime always messes up ammonia readings. does that tank have n2? or n3? if the tank has 0 n2, and a little bit of n3, then the tank is cycled


How does Prime mess up the ammonia readings?
I assume there is x # of ppm in the water but that is in a non toxic form that can't harm the fish if I am using Prime.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

lohachata said:


> zoos ; public aquariums and the like do not use products such as biro spira or stability..they set up a tank and put a few fish in it and let it cycle.
> they do not use ammonia of chunks of shrimp either.


I wondered how they set them up! I guess that they don't display the tanks when they are cycling?
Why would they risk the fish when they could do fishless cycling? After all, here we are all trying to encourage people not to harm their pets and you have "professionals" doing just that.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

A lot of the big aquariums have huge central systems, so they add tanks to there existing filtration. Even if they didn't, I imagine it is pretty easy to "seed" one of those huge rock/gravel/sand filters with a sand from another tank. 

I see nothing wrong with fish-less cycling, it is humane and educational (every fish keeper should know what ammonia and nitrite smell like) and, incidentally, it forces you to slow down and not fill the tank with fish the first time you go to the store. Even a day or two of research and "will this work" posts can prevent all sorts of headaches from incompatible and unsuitable fish. 

loha is old-school and his way works pretty well in big tanks (aquariums have huge tanks). A couple little fish can feed the filter without creating a killer amount of ammonia in a 70 gallon,. Then you slowly add more fish and the filter bacteria will multiply and keep up. Test kits are expensive and plenty of people cycled tanks without watching the cycle. 

But give a true newb this advice (throw in a couple of fish), and he will put six 2" comets in a 1 gallon without even an airstone. So advocating for fish-less cycle seems to me like a better way to go. (do as I say, not as I do)

Now we have all these products that supposedly give you the filter bacteria and simultaneously reduce ammonia all the way to nitrogen gas. Prime and Amquel+ "detoxify" ammonia and nitrite. The stores are saying "stock it today" and "never change water", so a multi-week fish-less cycle is getting to be hard to sell. You can no longer say "fishless cycle or the fish will die" because there is a good chance they won't (at least not right away). So we compromise and say "pick the hardiest of the fish you eventually want" and "use Stability". 

But we know Stability doesn't always work. Those nitraban-type products are an endless expense even if they work. And exposing fish to high ammonia and/or nitrite is stressful. Given that all new fish are getting exposed to lots of diseases on route to us, I would advocate for 'fish-cycling' just to reduce the nightmare of having stressed fish come down with disease. 

I would like to see people doing a proper "fish-less" cycle, with test results and records. And I would like to see results with no additions and with all the 'bacteria in a bottle" products on the market. So we know which will create a stable, long-term filter colony and which one will work for a while and then stop. But I am too lazy to do it myself. 

I just keep extra sponge filters running in my tanks and move them to any new tanks I set up. But if I ever get a nasty disease in my tanks, I will be spreading it around before I know it.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

emc7 said:


> I would like to see people doing a proper "fish-less" cycle, with test results and records. And I would like to see results with no additions and with all the 'bacteria in a bottle" products on the market.


I did that EMC, on this forum a few months ago. But only with Stability. I don't remember the name of the thread but I'm sure it's still out there somewhere. I even got into a couple of really heated arguments. LOL Seems that there are folks that are somewhat dogmatic about this Stability.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

As I remember, it worked for you, but only in the high pH tank? How long did it take?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

It didn't work at all during the experiment. I had a lot of trouble with both tanks (with and without Stability). I had read several accounts of ideal conditions needed for the bacteria to thrive. It was always warm water with a high PH. We all know that the process of nitrification causes a PH drop so I decided to try buffering the water. It worked great. The Stability worked in seven days as advertised. I then slowly (with water changes) changed the water back to my normal soft/ acid. Everything has been fine ever since.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

I expected the fishless cycle to take 6-8 weeks before my tank would be ready for fish. I'm not in a huge hurry to add fish, but after 3 weeks of not seeing any signs of cycling at all I was getting concerned that maybe I wasn't doing it properly. I thought I'd try Stability since some folks here have reported success and recommend it. I've cycled tanks in the past using fish, but I wanted to try this method to be more humane. Also, because my pH is so high, I think it makes the ammonia toxic at lower levels, making it harder for fish to survive a cycling tank.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Two edged sword... Ammonia is more toxic at a high PH. However at a low PH the bacteria don't do well... Another problem is that ammonia will kill the bacteria. The key is testing. You have to know where you are. Keep the ammonia level at no more than 3ppm. and no less than 1 ppm. during the cycle. That's the problem I have with Prime/ Amquel. etc. It messes up the test results.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Well I'm a bit stumped. I started my fishless cycle 29 days ago. I added enough pure ammonia (Ace Hardware brand labeled pure ammonia janitorial strength, no suds or foam when shaken) to get to somewhere around 4ppm ammonia. I have been keeping the tank at around 80-81 degrees, but I still can't get any reading on nitrites. 

Last week I started dosing with Seachem Stability, per the instructions on the bottle. I did lower the ammonia to approx 1-2ppm through a partial water change, but still no readings of nitrites.

pH ~8.4
ammonia 1-2ppm
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate ~5ppm (comes that way from the tap).

Any suggestions? I can't do the prawn cycle - house is too small to deal with that stench.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

hrm... when I see 1-2ppm amon, 0 n2, and 5 n3 I call that should be cycled. the second you have n3 is usually an indicator that bacteria are eating up ammon, to n2, and n2 to n3. I say don't add no more ammonia, and drop a fish an inexpensive hardy fish like a platy or something. and watch the chem lvls over the next week. it should drop to 0 ammon, 0 n2, a wee bit of n3.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

My tap water has 5ppm nitrate before adding it to the tank, so it isn't from any cycle in the tank. It is always around 5ppm.


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## ledfootz28 (Feb 7, 2010)

im on day 2 of stability after ron suggested it.i also used a prime along with stress zymy in my super low ph high ammonia tank.i ll let ya know in about a week how it worked out.i had no choice but to do it with the fish i already have..so far so good their still alive.

i was reading on a website that stability has bacteria strains that can live in low or high ph.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Sure, they can live in it, but they can't do their job very well if it's too low.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

ledfootz28 said:


> i was reading on a website that stability has bacteria strains that can live in low or high ph.


I'm interested in how this turns out for you. My experence suggest that it will not work at a low PH. I've been waiting to see how it works for someone else.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

my own experience is that you have to add the stability on day 1 before any ammonia is present. It takes about 24 hours to 'hatch' and become active. it also works better if you can add a bit of old filter media.
had trouble myself recently when I added it at day 4 or 5.I couldn't get the nitrites to come down even with water changes alternate days.
Stripped the tank out added another fish used Stability on day 1 and a bit of filter media and voila-- no readings of anything after 7 days of Stability.
Stopped it on day 7 as per instructions. No readings of ammonia or nitrite now on day 12.
I did not check nitrates because previous experience has also shown that there will be no nitrate reading for a few weeks. they gradually appear. I think the product works best in conjunction with a bit of old filter media. My experience with just using old media has been that it kickstarts the cycle but not as fast as I would like. the Stability alone in a brand new setup does not work as well as I expected but the 2 together is good.
I do not add a whole wack of fish though --start out slowly with a couple of small fish. I used a betta in a 1 1/2 gallon as my last experiment.
1 1/2 gallons makes an ideal Q tank for small fishes.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Hmmm maybe the problem was that I already had ammonia in the tank. I think I have enough left to do it again. Maybe I'll do 100% water change, add it with no ammonia and then just add 1ppm ammonia 24 hours later. It's worth a shot I guess. 

I've thought of trying to do it with a fish, but my pH is so high that I am not sure a fish would survive the ammonia toxicity at that pH, even with daily water changes. Plus, wouldn't daily water changes slow down the cycle?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

pinetree said:


> I've thought of trying to do it with a fish, but my pH is so high that I am not sure a fish would survive the ammonia toxicity at that pH, even with daily water changes.


If you completely clean out the tank, gravel and all there should be no ammonia to worry about. I think using fish and going by the bottle directions will do the trick for you. I don't know how it would work with store bought ammonia- never tried that. In theory it should work but you never know with this stuff. I just think going with the standard practice is the best bet. With your high PH, I think it will be a slam dunk. I would fully stock the tank, add Stability for seven days, no water changes and be done with it.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

<- my personal experience with stability I did 10% waterchanges daily


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Just when I was about to give up and start the whole thing over again, I got a 1ppm spike of nitrites. Hopefully the tank is finally on it's way!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Yeah, half-way there. Hope the second half won't take as long.


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