# Gravid guppies help!!!!!!!



## finnedfish123

I went to the pet shop and told the man about ine of my platies which I thought was gravid and he said that she wasn't but they did have some gravid guppies so I bought two of them.

They have a really dark gravid spot and have a few spots on the underside of their tummys. I am worried that they are ill because they just sit at the top of the tank doing nothing much.

I am certain that they are gravid but I need to know what to do when they have the fry. I have two big hiary plants in one corner of the tank for them to breed in.

What do I do when they release the fry - will my bristlenose catfish eat them? 
What should I feed the fry?

I don't have another tank so they are gonna just have to grow up with my black neon tetras, neon tetras, platies, catfish and thier mother! Would that be ok?


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## lohachata

ok...first i am gonna give ya heck...you bought female guppies that you knew were going to have babies....yet you also knew that you are totally unprepared to care for the fry..you have no spare tank..no proper foods..no proper protection for the fry...and they will be in a tank with other fish that may well eat the fry...the black tetras may go after them...also possibly the catfish depending on species...and most definitely the platy...often new guppy fry will rest on the bottom for an hour or 2....that is where the catfish and pleco will get them...and yes...momma will try to eat them too..

now....you need some bushy floating plants like hornwort...you will need a finely powdered food for them..you can crush up flake food for this..and hope for the best...

so it is back to the shop for plants and maybe some food.....good luck with your babies...


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## Sorafish

OK, first. Your guppies sound like they have PH shock. Nothing you can do about them but hope they get over it. It sounds like either there was a VAST difference in PH from the tank they came from and the one they were put in, or they weren't acclimated to their current tank.
This is prevented by removing 1/4 the water from the bag and replacing it with tank water. A few hours later, repeating. And doing this until your pretty sure that all the water in the bag is your tank water. 
Now:
Research is everything. But we'll cheat here.  

First step would be to go to your local petco and buy a $7ish plastic, see-through breeders net. THIS will float at the top of your tank, preferably flush against the side so it doesn't hurt your other fish, with the fry you catch INSIDE it. You take out all the inside gunk (it has a grating and a divider for the females, but that's explained on the box) and carefully net the fry into it.

Will they survive your other fish? No. They will not. The catfish will clean up any fry that WILL drop to the bottom and into the gravel to hide. The few that won't drop to the bottom will either be eaten by the mom, or by the tank mates.

What do you do? Wait a month for the next batch and probably put the mother into the breeder net until she has them. The mom will likely die (petstore guppies are very weak nowadays, and the stress of the pregnancy is likely to kill it) but any fry she has will be a lot stronger than she was.

As for food, if you take some of the flake food and crush it between your fingers and give a penny-sized coating of food on the surface of the breeder, they'll be happy. But crushed blood-worms are pretty good for them.

In other words, better luck next time? Sorry, but your other fish don't really allow for breeding livebearers unless using a breeder net.


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## finnedfish123

Thanks that was very helpful. I was told that the big bushy plant in the corner of my tank would provide hiding spaces for the babies and when they were born they just start swimming around after a few minuets. I have a bredding trap which I could net the fry into? Would that work?

She isn't staying at the top she is just acting like all my other fish now.

I think that she is gonna have the fry within two days because she has a tail up to her belly almost completly black and it wasn't before.

I can kinda see though her scales which look very stretched out and there is a white layer thingy. She has lots of spots on her underneath which were also not there before?

So I can crush flakes up, net them into the breeding trap (for how long?) and basically hope that my other fish don't get them before I do. Lol, this is kinda exciting!


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## lohachata

i think that now would be a good time to get another tank and set it up for the guppies..you can move your fry into it as well as the females...with enough floating plants they should make it ok..you may lose a few ; but most will survive..
i put a couple of pairs in a 15 gallon tank a couple of months go...we will be moving in 2 or 3 weeks and they will go into a 40 gallon long because there are so many fry.....looks like i am going to have to set up several 40 longs just for guppies..getting in some spectacular Thai Red Dragons this week...i hope to have some for sale in about 4-6 months..
a lot of people will give the fry back to the shops....shops won't pay for fry...but they will pay for adults...and specific varieties bring more than regular fancies..
right now i have Black Moscows....Purple Moscows...Imperial Sun...Flame Cobras...Blue Cobras....Thai Red Dragons.....
i think i may have to stop there as i may not have room for any more.....

good luck with your guppies......they are pretty interesting fish.....and very diverse..


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## finnedfish123

I am not in any state of setting up a new tank! I would have to convince so may people that there won't be any point cuz they would say no and I haven't got the money right now! I just hope that they get through it alive. I can only take 6 more fish so I am not going to be upset if they die!

Could I put the fry into a breeding trap for a little while or would there be no point cuz I have heard that sometimes it just stresses the fish out and does no good, what do you think?


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## bmlbytes

Buy guppy grass (Najas guadalupensis). Its a tall aquatic plant that will hide your fry until they are large enough to not get eaten. Also floating plants like hornwart will help. If you provide enough protection many of them will survive.

Buy powdered food or crush up the flakes into a VERY fine powder. Baby guppies have very small mouths.


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## Sorafish

Honestly, I use the breeding trap for a week, after which point they are big enough not to be eaten by the mom (usually) Not sure if you have any larger fish than a guppy female, but they'd probably still be fine.

As for powdered food or crushing it into a fine powder, that can yuck up your tank FAST. They will eat just fine if you crush it as much as you can between your fingers.
You could crush the food up if you notice them not eating, but it depends on the mom. If the mom gives birth to 15-30 fry, they will be a bit bigger. But they have the capacity to birth up to 200 fry. If you have a female like THAT then they will most certainly need the fine crushed food.


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## finnedfish123

I have got two hornwort plants in one corner of my tank the more pregnant female is normally swimming around it. I will crush up the flakes then (very small) and put the fry into the breeding trap for 1-2 weeks until they are big enough. Do you think that will be long enough? My tank temperature is 25-26 c is that gonna be ok for the fry?


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## mousey

if you have a big enough tank to hold a 5 pound empty, well washed peanut butter jar you can make your own fry tank. Burn small holes in the sides of the jar and hang it in the tank being careful to put suction cups on the tank sides for the jar to rest against. This allows for other fish to swim around the jar-- fish have been crushed when trying to squeeze behind jars and the glass.
Get a ladies nylon and cut the leg off so that it will fit over the sides of the peanut butter jar. This will allow water circulation into the jar but keep the fry in.. Clean the jar well each week to get any food off the bottom. You can pour the fry into another container while you are cleaning.

Be very careful with the hole size in the jar. It would be better for the fry if the holes were bigger than them. If the holes are about the same size as the fish head they ay try to swim thru and get stuck and then die. 
I had a betta that tried to get thru holes in a jar and he cut his spine in half.
My fry are 2 months old and are not yet big enough to swim with momma.She has a big appetite for fry. My tank is heavily planted but she hunts them down.


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## finnedfish123

That's an awesome idea, only thing-how am I gonna burn thru glass?????? 

I was thinking that just leaving them in the breeding trap would work????? 

My friend who onces breed guppies said that the first time she did it she put them in a vase!!!! Quite how that worked I'm not sure......


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## Sorafish

The peanut jar theory is brilliant! Never thought of that before!
Most jars for peanut butter are plastic, not glass.
A breeding trap will work just fine. I wouldn't try a vase. Anything that can't get water circulation or be cleaned easily will get dirty VERY fast-a matter of days usually, since these small little guys produce so much waste.


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## finnedfish123

ok i will go for the breeding trap thingy. my females are circuling the hornwart!!!


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## mousey

I haven't seen glass peanut butter jars for years! I thought everything was switched to plastic for that particular product- at least here where I live.
I use my hubby's soddering iron rod- it melts the plastic really fast.


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## Fishpunk

Wait, you have livebearers and tetras in the same tank? Livebearers prefer hard and alkaline water, tetras prefer soft and acidic water. This is especially true of neon tetras. the water chemistry cannot be make optimal for both types of fish. You either favor one at the expense of the other, or you compromise and neither thrives.


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## finnedfish123

Oh, believe me my fish don't care to much about the water they are just fine and never had hardly any dieses!!! I might try the peanut thingy and hope that they have the babies soon!!!!!! i can tell!!!!!


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## Fishpunk

They may tolerate the water conditions, but that doesn't make the conditions optimal.


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## finnedfish123

My fish are fine even though they have those differences.

Might try the peanut butter thingy but not sure yet.

I hope that she drops soo and some of them survive!!!


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## finnedfish123

My guppies had 1 fry, i hope she has more tonight. He/she is so cute!!!!! i love him and beg for more!!! he/she is bright orange and is amazing at hiding in the plant, do you think that she will have any more. The female is still gravid with a dark spot. Is that ok????


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## fish1

your guppy will have more then 1 fry.
ones they start to drop they normally have them all at the same time within less then a hour if you dont see any more very soon the chances are they have been eaten.


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## finnedfish123

I am not actually sure it is a guppy cuz it is all orange, we think it cod be a platy.


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## fish1

yes its more likely to be a platy.


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## bmlbytes

These are the common livebearing fish in the hobby.

Platy









Molly









Swordtail









Guppy









Endler's Livebearer


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## finnedfish123

What? Is it a platy or guppy?


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## ZebraDanio12

I had a platy give birth once. ( im not much into platys only have guppies now) and i had her for months and she randomly had five fry. two of which came out with a lot of black. They are also shaped differently than guppy fry.

Heres a pic of a guppy fry: As you can see they are more long in length.









And heres a platy fry. They are much bigger shorter/fatter than guppy fry and can be born with color like this one. A few of my marigold platy fry look just like this.










Hope this helped you figure out which it is! Good luck!


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## bmlbytes

finnedfish123 said:


> What? Is it a platy or guppy?


Which one of those pictures I posted above looks like the mother of your fish? It will determine the species of your fish. Those pictures are pictures of all the different livebearers that are common in the hobby.


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## Fishpunk

The "Endler's livebearer" in the photograph above is an endler-guppy hybrid, not a pure Endler. Pure endlers never have pastal colors and his caudal peduncle is too thick to be an endler. A pure Endler's livebearer looks like my avatar.

There is an easy way to tell if the parent is a guppy or another livebearer. Male guppies are about an inch long. The platty, molly and swordtail are closer to two inches long as adults.


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## finnedfish123

It looks like the swordtail and platy. I don't have sword tails though so it wouldnt be that wouldnt be that would it?????? It is quite long though so unless that helps then i guess i'll just have to wait until it shows later! How long should i leave the fry in the breeding trap?????


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## Fishpunk

finnedfish123 said:


> How long should i leave the fry in the breeding trap?????


Keep them separated until the fry are too big to fit into the mouth of the adults in the tank


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## finnedfish123

with the pics above the fry is orange but long!!!!!!!!!!!!! what does this mean


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## bmlbytes

finnedfish123, what does the mother fish look like? Is it a platy, swordtail or guppy?


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## bmlbytes

Fishpunk said:


> The "Endler's livebearer" in the photograph above is an endler-guppy hybrid, not a pure Endler. Pure endlers never have pastal colors and his caudal peduncle is too thick to be an endler. A pure Endler's livebearer looks like my avatar.


I've heard talk that they are considering making the endler's a sub-species of guppy, or even the same species entirely as the guppy. Apparently it has the same genes as a guppy, but they name them differently for distinction.


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## finnedfish123

I don't know which is the mother thats the problem????!!!!!!!!!


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## bmlbytes

Do you have guppies and platies in the same tank?

You might just have to wait until they develop to know whether they are platies or guppies.


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## Fishpunk

bmlbytes said:


> I've heard talk that they are considering making the endler's a sub-species of guppy, or even the same species entirely as the guppy. Apparently it has the same genes as a guppy, but they name them differently for distinction.


I have researched and published on this fish, so here is my current understanding. You have it backwards. Originally they were considered just a variant of guppy, not even a subspecies. In 2005, Fred N. Poeser, Michael Kempkes, Isaäc J. H. Isbrücker described it in Contributions to Zoology as a unique species Poecilia wingei based upon a number of characteristics. You can read the original paper here: http://dpc.uba.uva.nl/ctz/vol74/nr01/art07


This was/is not without controversy. A year after that came out, there was a scathing article in Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine refuting the paper. However, my understanding through the main breeder of this fish is that there have now been DNA studies that positively identify P. wingei as a separate species. However, there is still a great deal of controversy and debates can get extremely emotional. I hit a sensitive point between the breeder and Dr. Endler by accident at one point and had to back off to stay in good graces with both men.

That said, it could be that somebody is re-evaluating the classification and I'm not aware of it.

However, having kept both P. wingei and P. reticulata simultaneously (in separate tanks) I can vouch that the caudal peduncle thickness is a very clear difference in characteristics, and pastels like that sky blue in the photo do not occur in any specimens that I have ever seen. John Endler himself told me that pretty much every "endler's livebearer" he has ever seen for sale in a pet store or LFS have been hybrids. The only way to be sure you have pure endler genetics is to acquire from a known keeper.


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## ZebraDanio12

Which baby does he look like in my pictures. Color can sometimes mean nothing. I've had guppies born black before.


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## bmlbytes

I have heard a lot of controversy, and people still believing it to be one way or another. The fact of the matter is, that they are extremely close in genetics. This is proven by the fact that you can breed the two species, and they will have offspring that are fertile. Most animals that are similar, but not the same species, have infertile offspring if they are able to breed (example: Horse + Donkey = Infertile Mule).

The wild guppies and Endler's livebearers do live in areas that overlap. This could indicate that the Endler's livebearer is a type of guppy. If their areas did not overlap, then they would most likely not be of the same species. 

In 2006 Stan Shubel wrote a book titled "Aquarium Care for Fancy Guppies". In the book he mentions that Endler's livebearers have the same genetic makeup as guppies. They keep their separate species name for "conservation purposes".

I think of it like this. All dogs are of the species Canis lupus. This includes domestic dogs, wolfs, and dingos. They can all breed with each other and their offspring will be fertile. This is because they are all of the same species. Obviously the wolf and the domestic dog have some pretty major physical differences, yet they are still the same species. They have classified Canis lupus into sub-species for this reason. For example, the Eurasian wolf is Canis lupus lupus; the domestic dog is, Canis lupus familiaris; the dingo is Canis lupus dingo. Within the Canis lupus familiaris sub-species we have very different breeds even (example: terrier, ****************zu, retriever). 

This seems to be about what is happening with the guppy/Endler's. They are very similar animals and I think they should probably be placed into sub-species classification. We already give the guppies and Endlers' different breeds (sunrise guppy, black bar Endler's, etc). Maybe we should put them into sub-species, and then breeds. To reduce confusion I propose that the sub-species names be like this:
P. reticulata reticulata (common guppy)
P. reticulata wingei (Endler's livebearer)
There is no need to refer to the P. wingei as a guppy though. That is just a common name.

That is my personal opinion, based on the knowledge I have received from research on the topic.


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## Fishpunk

Regardless of the classification, they are definitely unique fish and since they can be distinguished when hybridized, they are not the same as common guppies, but they certainly are very similar. No argument there.

But, I'm not interested in getting into any debates on the status of the fish. It is what it is and when it changes, it will be whatever they change it to. I don't necessarily disagree with your points.


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## platies pwn

I'm just saying what I think.I think that guppys and endlers are the same species,but the endler is in a different lake,making its evolution pattern a little different than a guppy,making it look different.If you say that they are different species,their offspring would be mostly infertile.Endlers are extinct in the wild,so that would explain the many hybrids with guppies.I think that it would be possible to breed guppys into endlers.Ex:I think scientists can create an artificial lake,like the kind endlers come from.The guppys would then be forced to evolve(after many generations,obviously)into endlers.


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## lohachata

i am not really into endlers but i personally believe they are a different species than guppies...closely related maybe ; but different...
there are a number of things that help to determine species..scale count..fin ray count..dentition..etc..etc...but for some reason the scientific community has yet to come up with anything difinitive as to whether or not they are the same or different species....
but most likely when they do , they will change it in a month or so....and then go back and forth for another 20 years....lol


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## Fishpunk

platies pwn said:


> Endlers are extinct in the wild


This is false. Due to toxins and invasive cichlids, they simply no longer appear in the body of water where John Endler discovered them. They do still appear in other bodies of water in that region.


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## finnedfish123

oh, right , thanks for your help guys!!!


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