# I'm crying...



## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

I kid you not. I've had fish tanks for some time, and don't understand what could have happened.

I came home the other day and found my favorite fish (a Hap. Borleyii) had a small piece of white on his side. I watched carefully, and he developed another, and then some small white specs on his fin. I figured it was Ich, especially when I saw another fish that began to get a few white spots on him. So I went the fish store, bought some rid Ich, and followed the directions (I've treated Ich succesfully before).

So the first day of treatment (two days ago, wednesday) I did a 40-50% water change, and put the Rid-Ich in. Next day all seemed fine. Fish were acting normal and happy. So I took thursday off, then today, friday, at around 2, I did a 30% water change, and treated again. I left, ran some errands, came back at 4:30, and found 12 fish laying on the sand dead. All 12of my showpiece fish are dead. I know I used Dechlor, I know I didn't overuse the Rid-Ich (a teaspoon per 10 gallons, I put in 8 teaspoonsfull).

Can anyone think what could have happened? I'll do a test on the water right now and post the results in a second.


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

Real quick, as for my fish list, I haven't updated it, but before today, there was only 1 Electric Blue, 1 Electrick Yellow, and No Sunshine Pea****************. These guys were donated to the fish store about a month ago (lucky guys....)


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

Well here's our answer, now I just wish I knew why...

My NO2's (Nitrites) are at 3.3-33mg/L

What could have caused this huge jump? This tank has been up for over a year, and I've never had a single problem with any of my nitrites, nitrates, ammonia, or pH? I can't believe this really happend to me. I'm a murderer. I must have done sometime wrong during the water change???


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## rcomeau (Apr 23, 2006)

The 'label' indicates concerns about reduced dissolved oxygen (and stressing fish that are not scale-less). Was the surface of the water being agitated enough to be sure that there was enough dissolved oxygen?


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## rcomeau (Apr 23, 2006)

Its not suppose to effect the biological filter. Maybe your good bacteria died somehow.


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

rcomeau said:


> The 'label' indicates concerns about reduced dissolved oxygen (and stressing fish that are not scale-less). Was the surface of the water being agitated enough to be sure that there was enough dissolved oxygen?



The filters were agitating the water the same way they have in this tank for the last year. 


Oh and here's the big surprise, there were two fish that apparently didn't die, and this morning when I woke up, I see my Zebra-Obliquedin and my Electric-Yellow-Lab swimming around like normal.....

Is there saving my tank?


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Of course there is... I'm sorry to hear about your fish, but mistakes do happen. You can't know everything.

For future references, I don't recommend using ich meds like RidIch or Super Ich to get rid of ich. Salt is such better, and I find that the Ich meds do more harm than good. Salt will kill the ich just as quickly and effectively and won't have any unpleasant side effects.

I suggest you do large daily water changes to get out the Rid Ich and the nitrites and put some salt in instead (1 tbsp/ 5gallons - aquarium salt, be sure to disolve first in warm water before putting it in your tank).

Good luck!


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

Thanks Zoe and everyone, what about the two survivors? Is it just a miracle? Will they be able to survive the large water changes? Should I change out my filter media? I just put back in my carbon, and the sponge I replaced it with while I was treating (I use AquaClear 70s) is bright blue from the meds.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I wouldn't change the filter sponge. If you just replaced the carbon and you get rid of the sponge, it'll kill off your nitrifying bacteria and possibly cause an ammonia or nitrite spike. An air tube I had in my tank years ago when I treated for ich is still blue, so don't worry about the colour. You could replace the sponge in a week or so, once the bacteria have established themselves in the carbon filter.

Also, when say you use Aqua Clear 70's - I'm guessing you mean more than one filter?

The two survivors could just be tougher - maybe they're wild, or stronger, whatever, and were able to better withstand the Nitrite spike. They should be able to handle the water changes if you don't shake 'em up too much. It'll be easier on them than staying in nitrites and ridich, anyway.

Zoe


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

Yeah, there's two of 'em. Two aquaclear 70s. I don't understand how all the bacteria could have died...unless the huge majority of my bacteria keeping my tank alive was in the two carbon pouches I took out of my filters??? But that doesn't make sense.

Well, I don't even know if I can afford to start buying new fish right now, so I might just have to break the whole tank down =..(


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

If you have two filters, then you can change the filter sponge of one of them now, and the other later on.

A LOT of nitrifying bacteria reside in your filter sponge / carbon. They break down the ammonia as it goes through the filter. If you remove / replace ALL your filter carbon / sponges in one die, you are likely to experience a small ammonia / nitrite spike. There are lots of bacteria in the gravel, also, so you aren't likely to kill all your fish when you replace the filters, but removing the filters removes a large portion of your bacteria. So it's not recommended.

I know you're feeling bummed out right now but don't take your tank apart yet. There's nothing wrong with having two fish for now and adding fish as you go along, even if it takes you a year to get back to where you were before.


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

True true. Does sand tend to have less beneficial bacteria than gravel? My tank is sand. Could something have happened when I took my carbon (while I was medicating) and replaced them with two new sponges??? My old sponges where still in the filters, I just filled the gap where the carbon would have been with sponges.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

Sand shouldn't make any difference, you just have to make sure it stays oxygenated either with malaysian trumpet snails or yourself (ie take a wooden chopstick or the handle end of a fish net and stir the substrate). Otherwise, toxic gases can build up within the sand and be released in large bubbles and kill your fishes.

No, I don't think anything could have happened when you put new sponges in. Unless they were dirty with some toxic residue but I can't see that being the case if they came from your LFS and were in a box.


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Zoe said:


> I suggest you do large daily water changes to get out the Rid Ich and the nitrites and put some salt in instead (5 tbsp/gallon - aquarium salt, be sure to disolve first in warm water before putting it in your tank).


You sure you mean 5 TABLESPOONS per gallon?

400 tablespoons OR 25 cups OR ~1.5 gallons dry measure of salt for 80 gallons water assuming decorations/sand take up 10G max?


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

No, I meant 1 tbsp / 5 gallons!! THanks for noticing that and pointing that out!


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

Ok, hopefully i'm reading this right.

First, like mentioned, I also do not condone the use of Rid-Ich, etc. Salt and high temps are all you need unless it's in extreme cases. 

Second, almost ALL meds will kill your bacteria, despite what they say. While some meds say they've been "tested" with nitryfying bacteria, etc. they will still kill off a portion in some way. If you took out the carbon, you also just took out another bacteria chunk if it's been established. Organics, etc. build up in the micro-pores- the bacteria coat the surface of the carbon and feed off of the substances. Those two combined may have taken out a large portion of your bacteria. Along with mainly killing the bacteria, the reduced dissolved oxygen levels may have inhibited the potential of ammonia reducing bacteria.

And lastly, you did all of this in a main tank? You should -never- use meds other than Melafix, or similar products, in the show tank. Small 10 gallon tanks, etc. should be used instead. If you have ich in the main tank, i'd single out the specimens that are most effected, and raise the temps up over 80 degrees in the show tank.

I hope that helps a little, I had to just throw in a few things I thought should be said . Sorry that this happened, I know what it feels like to come back to that, so I hope it gets better!


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

If Ich occurs in a tank all fish should be treated. All it takes is a single trophont going unnoticed on a fish or a single tomite existing in the tank the entire cycle can begin again. If ALL fish are removed to treatment tanks and the temperature is raised the show tank can go without meds or even salt. Exactly how long you must wait to be sure all stages of Ich have died is debatable.

Not everyone has a collection of 10G tanks waiting to house all the occupants of a 90G.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

rba is correct.

I think I know the real problem, and it has next to nothing to do with your filter bacteria.

I'm going to take a wild guess that it's been quite a long time since this tank had had a major water change? You said you changed 30%, medicated, and left, yes?

Well, if I read that right, you performed two major water changes in three days. That in itself isn't so bad..heck, many breeders change 90% daily. However, I think what got you was the possiblity that you hadn't changed so much before that, leading to a bit of shock. That shock might not have been so bad, but then the tricky part kicked in--> you remedicated. 
By any chance, did you add the full tank's dose after that second water change, as you seem to have described doing in your original description of events? Did you put the 8 teaspoons full in on the second dose despite having only removed 3 teaspoon's worth on that second water change?

If so, then that's the most likely cause of your problem. You did indeed overdose by "replacing" what you never lost in the first place. They might have survived it if they hadn't been shocked by the two big waterchanges.

On the other hand, if you were in the habit of changing lots of water every week, then forget that part of it and chalk it up to either an overdose of Rid-ich *OR* a change in your water supply that you didn't know about that happened between the two water changes. It happens all the time, you see, what with the city occasionally adding large amounts of something to the water in order to perform some sort of treatment to it or the pipes for a few days, and they never bother telling anyone first in most cases.

Rid-Ich used to be some of the best stuff on the market. Unfortunately they changed the formula ( _it used to be carcinogenic back when it worked_ ) and now it sucks. Salt is all fine and dandy if you have actual Ich, but with so many things that look like ich but aren't ( and which are immune to the salt treatment ) your best bet is to assume it's one of those if you can't tell and thusly use medicine. As rba mentioned, if you don't do the job right they'll just come back again to cause you more grief. I like Coppersafe, which not only works but is applied with one simple, single dose. Of course, with those africans you probably have calcareous gravel which would absorb Coppersafe, so you'd have to take your own tank parameters into consideration.

Anyway, I'm sorry for you loss and troubles. If none of these apply to you, well, at least now you know about them and can certainly avoid them in the future.


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

RBA, that's why I said only take out the ones most effected by the ick parasites. I didn't say take every fish out of their ninety gallon and shove them all in their own ten gallon . Trust me though, I know what you mean. I have a few spare ten gallons, but if I needed each one for my 65 gallon occupants..i'd be screwed. Half of my fish wouldn't even fit in them.

As for waiting for ick to die off, that could take months .


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

flamingo, you missed the point. Taking out the sickest fish will not remove the Ich. Remaining fish will just get infected and become sick too.

I do not believe Ich can survive for months without a host. I *think* a couple of weeks at 80F would do the trick but I wouldn't test that theory with my fish. LOL! I'd just turn the heat up until I got into the 90's then bring it down again and still probably wait a month total.

I think the Old Salt nailed it with the 2 large waterchanges and redosing. If not, it's still the best theory based on info given.


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

For most that have just one ... maybe 2 tanks "removal" isn't an option. I have that personally but most don't. AND even if I get ich in a tank I treat the tank not move the ich around into another tank infecting it as well. If I have some other problem that seems to be isolated to a single fish I'll treat the fish in a 5 or 10 gal. 

I think Old Salt is dead (no pun intended) on with this one as that's exactly what I was thinking when I read that she did another treatment following a 30% water change. And he's probably right about the water change or lack there of as most (average aquarists) do monthly water changes "if" they have time and even that routinly turns into bi-monthly with multiple top-offs in between. Freshwater fish, espicially cichlids can handle eleveted Nitrites and nitrates better than most people think. I skipped a tank in my water change rotation and then we had a litter of pups and it went well past my normal intravels to say the least. The only way I could tell it was off my normal schedule was the low water and elivated nitrate and nitrites. the fish seemed just as happy as normal.


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

I didn't say singling out the most effected would get RID of the ick. I'm saying if you have a fish RIDDEN with it, opposed to a fish with a few spots, the one covered may need quarantine or it could die. Ones with little effection could be used with a simple temp increase, while ones already half dead from it may need further attention in another tank...I didn't say get rid of the ones with the most and you'll get rid of the ich problem...

I'm sorry if i'm rude, but lately it seems people think i'm a dumb*** and have no use for anything whatsoever...


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## rba (Aug 25, 2006)

Yeah Joe Kool, I guess that why he IS The Old Salt. In times long gone by I did more harm than good with infrequent waterchanges which were too large. I've learned my lesson and can't remember the last time I topped off a tank. If it needs topping off it needs a waterchange even more! LOL!

flamingo, I still do not agree with the idea of moving a fish with a heavy infestation of Ich. It is already under great stress from the parasites. Taking it out of water which it is used to and putting it in a totally different environment will also be stressful. I would not want to use water from the original tank because of the likelihood that it has the free swimming tomites, the one and only infective stage. I don't know what kind of supportive care that isolation may provide that would outweigh the stress of being moved. Just my opinion based on relatively few experiences with Ich. Fortunately the outcomes have been successful and without using meds, just a lot of heat, a lot of salt and lots and lots of waterchanges to siphon off the cysts and tomites.


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## girth vader (Apr 24, 2006)

I agree with just using salt as well. But I dont recommend upping the temp. I know it speeds up the lifcycle of Ich, but it also causes added stress on the fish, especially the ones that show more spots on them, which in turn can help ich develope on the healthy fish. I use salt and never increase temp and it works out fine. It just takes a little bit longer to clear up. Unfortunately, if you have a cpl fish in that big tank with ich you have to treat the whole thing. Hospital tanks are great for bacterial and worms and such, but ich can lay in the substrate waiting to attach to a host, so you need to treat the tank and not just the fish if this was ich. I use a 10g for a hospital and I have a AC mini running in my large tank just for treating purposes. Just use the tank water, pop the AC mini in it and you have a ready to go hospital tank ready to go. always a good way to spend $20 just in case. sucks that you lost fish though, very sorry.


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## Cichlid Man (Jan 19, 2005)

My guess it you've changed too much water in short space time which effected the biological firtration system. Your fish aslo might of had a bit of a shock from the different concentrations of nitrate, hydrogen ions in the water. I.e. fluctuation in water parameters. 
My advice for future referance it to make small regular water changes instead of large irregular ons.
Also instead of using ich treatments, use tonic salts or pure sodium chloride.


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

I change my water every two weeks AT THE VERY LEAST. I know this had nothing to do with a shock from water changes. 40% every thursday morning. Every so often it happens I'm out of town on a thursday, or I'm just too tired so I'll wait another week, but no way would I wait a month.

It couldn't have been the water supply, my LFS has constant updates on their website letting everyone know of changes in SD water, and I have two roomates who both have tanks as well, which are doing fine.

It must have been the overdose. I don't know how I could have been so stupid. I put 90g worth in both times, within' three days. But, it doesn't say on the bottle to do less, it doesn't even say that water changes are NECESSARY when doing the medication, just that they help. The bottle doesn't say anything about taking down the dosage. Sorry I guess I'm just trying to fight that this is my fault =( =( =(


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