# Beginner questions about undergravle filters



## blakeoe (Apr 27, 2005)

I just set up a 55 gallon fresh water tank. I have 2 large angels, 3 rainbows, 3 tetras, 2 small oscars, 2 plecos, 2 clown loaches, and 2 upside down catfish. The tank has been set up for about 3 weeks but my water recently got cloudy so i brought a sample to my local fish guy (kinda weird and really hard to talk to) he said i have New tank syndrome. My Nitrates and nitrites are way up there. So i bought like 30 dollars worth of stuff to fix this. He sais i also should get an undergravel filter to help with the good bacteria. My 1st question is about powerheads. How many gallons per hour do i need for my 55 gallon tank? If i use 2 powerheads (one on each side) how many gph should each be and what are some good brands? Another question i have is how do i install the ugf without messing up the bacteria i already have? When i finally get my water right am i going to just have to start over?!?! Please help i am open to suggestions on anything that can make this easier.[/b] Also i have a few plants. Not allot just 3 or 4 what do i do about them? Will they mess up the ugf?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

undergravel filters are really a thing of the past. What did you buy with the 30 dollars? more than likely you were scammed into "snake oil" Biospira is the ONLY thing besides one other product that I don't know the name of that works on cycling a tank through new tank syndrome. Do some water changes on your tank and then get ready for the real killer here - take back some FISH! You are way over stocked my man! Those 2 oscars full grown will be too much bioload for that tank much less the other fish. Also they eventually will eat or kill the angels and the tetras. Also plecos are very heavy on the bioload too, they poop a lot, I'd take both of them back as well. This should help ease your problems, and get you started on the right track. REMEMBER PATIENCE is key


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## DavidDoyle (Jan 18, 2005)

Your tank is way overstocked not only for cycling but also for a final fish load- but that is another issue.

UGF work best in a reverse flow configuration using powerheads. When running a UGF or RUGF it is important to have medium sized gravel at least 3 inches deep for the system to work properly. As for flow, slower is better. The longer the food and O for the bacteria is available to them, the better. If you rung a RUGF it is important to have another filter designed mostly to handle mech filtration. The RUGF will keep stuff suspended in the water where the second filter can suck it out.

To retrofit an undergravel system into a running tank si a real PITA. I would suggest that you consider adding a bio-wheel filter for additional bio filtration. Look at Emperor or Penguin by Marineland or their Magnum Pro systems which also use bio-wheels.


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## mrmoby (Jan 18, 2005)

Yes, I'd get yourself a bio wheel filter. I run Emperor 400 's on both of my 55g's and they work great. They can be had for fair prices online at Dr Fosters and Smith, or even the Petco site. The online pricing of replacement filter cartriges is far better than retail also.


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## blakeoe (Apr 27, 2005)

Well he sold me some aquarium salt, test strips, "cycle" made by nutrafin which is supposed to be "bacteria in a bottle" and "amquel plus" for removing nitrate nitrite ammonia chlorine and chloramines. can you explain to me how a reverse undergravle filter works and what you need to do it? Sorry im new! He said he can't believe my fish aren't dead and that there still eating and that i desperately need to start running an undergravle filter b/c it's the only way to get enough bacteria and the water clarity is much better with one. I have no clue what to do your opinions are appreciated.


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

Go with 1 or 2 Hang on the back filters, take back your 2 small oscars, 2 plecos, 2 clown loaches they are not suitable for your tank. 

Let the cycle finish then re-evaluate what you want in your tank.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

actually your bacteria will be in the gravel whether you have a ugf or not. But on your HOB the population of bacteria will be the greatest. Fortunately that LFS guy wasn't a bastard! He gave you pretty much all the good stuff. Cycle? Is that the other stuff thats good for cycling? Not sure if its snake oil or not, I forgot the name of the other stuff besides biospira.


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## blakeoe (Apr 27, 2005)

Well that's good to hear at least i didn't get scammed. Im looking at the penguin 350 with the 2 bio wheels.Petsmart has it for $28 if i get it should i run it with my old filter for a while? if so how long? Im going to get rid of some fish too. Does anyone know where i can find the outside dimentions of the filter? When i first bought the aquarium i ordered a tetra tec filter and it was way too wide i had to pull the aquarium off the wall too far and it looked like crap so i sent it back. Thanks for all the advice guys!


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## Lexus (Jan 19, 2005)

unfortunately most filters will stick out a lot my tanks sit at least 4-6" away from the wall.


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## DavidDoyle (Jan 18, 2005)

You can probably get filter dimensions from the manyfacturers web sites:

Marineland for Emperor, Penguin and Magnum http://www.marineland.com/
Hagen for AquaClear Tetra for Whisper http://www.hagen.com/
Tetra for WHisper and TetraTec http://www.tetra-fish.com/

-Amquel Plus will likely render your test kits useless (read the label on it).
-Cycle is worthless.
- Salt should only be added to relieve nitrite related breathing problems and not used on a regular basis for fw fish.

If you want the tank close to the wall then most Power Filters wont fit. That leaves you with a canister as the only reasonable alternative. If you want to go that route Eheims are the cadilacs of canisters and priced accordingly. Filstar are not bad as cheaper choice.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Blake, the first thing you need to do is forget everything your fish shop told you and listen to the good folks on this forum. The only thing you got for your $30, that's any good is the Amquel. You don't need the salt. The test strips are no good, very inacurate/ hard to read. You need liquid test kits. The product " Cycle" is snake oil, as Fishfirst put it. And you don't need an undergravel filter. Did the pet shop sell you one of those too??? Just do what these folks tell you, and you will be OK.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

whoops... forgot amquel plus does that. otherwise the Test kit and salt was a good investment.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

DavidDoyle was spot-on on every count.

Cycle isn't much help.
"Bio-Spira" is the good stuff, followed by Seachem's "Stability."
Well, technically, Cycle does work, eventually, but why cycle in six weeks with the wrong bacteria when you can cycle in two days with the right ones?

Nitrite poisoning can be alleviated by the addition of a little salt, but it's only a temporary solution.

As for the undergravel filter, I for one still use and like them.
As mentioned already, the reverse-flow method works a lot better. I have a few tanks which employ UGF's and are full of plants which are growing just fine. The big problem with plants is that you can't vacuum your gravel, but a reverse-flow setup doesn't need much vacuuming anyway. A canister filter in conjunction with a reverse-flow UGF is a fine combination in regard to effectiveness and ease of maintenance.

Canister filters are great, but they need very regular cleaning. Most of them come with bio-foam for use as a biofilter, but in my opinion, the canister filter should be used only for meechanical and chemical filtration, not biofiltration, since the regular cleaning it needs disrupts the bacteria too much.

Tanks need three kinds of filtration, these being mechanical, chemical, and biological. Many filters on the market claim to be able to provide all three, and they do, but relying on one filter for everything is not very smart. An old adage regarding eggs and a basket comes to mind.
I like to always use at least two different filters on every tank, which lets me tear one down for cleaning while the other one continues working unhindered.

The Amquel will keep your fish alive, but it will also make the ammonia less useable by your bacteria, thereby slowing down the cycling process. It also interferes with your test kits, as mentioned already, for the same reason. I only use it for dire emergencies, which almost never arise because I prevent them in the first place. THAT'S the secret of fishkeeping--> preventing the problems from arising in the first place.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

My method for preventing problems in the first place is to use only a few tough fish for cycling, and to put in lots of floating plants to absorb excess ammonia during the cycling process. 

OldSalt, why do you feel that a tank needs chemical filtration? Biofiltration and mechanical, certainly, but what do you expect the carbon (that's what's usually used in chemical filtration, right?) to absorb? As far as I knew, the stuff that carbon absorbs, like humic acids generated from the decay of organic material, aren't harmful to fish, and can be useful to plants.

(I'm talking about day-to-day use here, I know that you need carbon to absorb meds after you're done treating your tank.)


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## buddah101 (Mar 20, 2005)

since he already has the UGF, couldn't he/she make a "reverse flow" UGF out of it to nurture the good bacteria? Just a thought. But I totally agree about what ron v said and most everyone else here. There are some real smart people here on the topic! Good Luck


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, Myra, it's very simple.

Everyone knows about the nitrogen cycle of ammonium, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, and some go even further to denitrifying the nitrate back into nitrogen gas, and the effects of reduction are also well known by most, but despite all this, they are still looking at only one part of the whole picture.

There are also carbon, calcium, and sulfur cycles to go along with the nitrogen cycle. Normally we don't even think once about them, let alone twice, because they don't have much real effect.

Ah, but some things aren't covered by these cycles, or if they are, the process is very slow and inefficient. Without chemical filtration, lots of things will build up in an aquarium to cause problems. These include turpenoids, indoles, skatols, cresols, phenols, hormones, shreckstoff, and more. Oh, yes, eventually these will also break down and take their places within the other cycles, but the process is slow and inefficient, which allows these things to cause problems before they are removed by either the plants, which don't especially want them, or the bacteria, which first have to wait for them to break down into lesser compounds.

Can you run a tank without chemical filtration? No, it's impossible, and here's why:

-Carbon is one form of chemical filtration.
-Plants are another.
-Heck, even biofiltration is really chemical filtration.
-So are water changes.

So, when I say a tank needs chemical filtration, I don't just mean by carbon. If you were to run a tank without any of these things I just listed, how long would that tank survive?


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

Ah, OK, that explains it. Yeah, I think that a tank without plants, normal filtration, carbon filtration, and water changes would mean a very short lifespan for the fish... I'm ashamed to admit it, but for a while at university I used to keep a goldfish in a bowl. I didn't keep up the water changes, and they wouldn't last more than a couple of months. After a few of them I gave up. Now I've gotten into fishkeeping the right way, with a decent sized tank (well, tanks appropriate to the size of the fish in them, like rosy barbs in a 20 gallon and white cloud mountain minnows in a 5 gallon) and filters, and plants, and almost-weekly water changes. The fish are active and healthy and we haven't had a fish die since shortly after the first tank was set up. I skip the carbon because with all the other stuff, it isn't needed, but as you point out, it's only one aspect of the while picture.


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