# New to SW need advice with Start Up and Equipement



## fishn00b

I just want to say thanks in advance to anyone reading this topic and helping me set up my tank. I know a lot of people ask how to set up SW tanks and I've been reading the posts but I am still a little confused about the whole start up process. When everything is done I'm going to give it to my dad as a retirement present (it will be set up at his house) so I want to basically make it so I have to do as little water changes (if any) as possible. I've been reading the posts and I haven't seen many posts on doing any water changes so I'm confused if its necessary, althought keeping freshwater fish myself, I know its vital to a stable FW tank. I don't want to cheap out on anything so I know I have to spend a lot of money to get this running and I will. So here goes the questions:

I'm planning on getting a 220 gallon tank and I would like coral to be in the tank as well. I would like to know the names of any top brands any of you have delt with in means of Filters, Lights, Skimmers, Powerheads and any other equipement I need. If I only need one filter (or skimmer, etc), would two filters be better? Would they keep the tank cleaner for longer? Should I have canister filters in addition to hang-on-the-top filters or just one of the types?

I am hoping the tank will have coral in it with a live sand subtrate (thats what I hear people use) but I'm not sure what all this does, nor how to sculpt it or anything. Is it necessary? 

I'm sure I have other questions because I know this is going to be a long process but I definately want to make this as perfect as possible, so I'll post more questions as soon as I come across them. Once again thanks so much for listening to this and helping me out. I know it's a lot but I really appreciate it.


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## Fishfirst

Well 1st of all about water changes: water changes do help a sw system just like a freshwater system. It also replaces trace minerals and such. Most hobbiests to the same amount of water changes as freshwater. Stock the tank lightly and you can get away with fewer. Stock the tank a lot and you need to do more. 

Secondly what type of corals you get will determine the filtration, lighting, and how much flow you need (powerheads). I dislike canister filters and hob filters... I only use hob filters to run carbon. Protein skimmers are what I would get, Aqua C remora's are one of the best kinds of skimmers out there for your money. 

Live sand is going to run you a pretty penny if you want to have it all be livesand. I would do a 1/5 ratio of live sand with a base argonite sand substrate. Liverock would also be good to attach those corals of yours . Get back to us on what type of corals you want and I can tell you which lighting would suit you best.

This will also help you sort out some stuff. http://www.fishforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5216


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## fishn00b

So what type of filters would you suggest? Or are you saying that Protein Skimmers are all you need? If I do get a protein skimmer will having a canister or HOB filter help the tank stay cleaner? 

With the live sand do you mean one part live sand to 5 parts regular sand? If so it's just ok to mix it like that? What effect does the live sand have in the tank?

I honestly have no idea on corals or live rock at all. What are the difference and what do you think look best? I would like both of these if possible, but like I said I don't know what distinguishes them from one another. 

Also if I put maybe two Protein Skimmers in the tank will it help reduce the amount of debris falling to the floor of the tank even more? Is there a way where I will have to do minimal vacuuming on the floor to pick up feces (maybe by shrimp or other animals or even equipement) so that all I would have to do is change the water?

Thanks again for your helping and reading these long posts.


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## TheOldSalt

Fishn00b, the first money you should spend should be on two books:

*The New Marine Aquarium* by Mike Paletta
& 
*The Conscientious Marine Aquarist* by Robert Fenner.

There are a great many books on the market, but these two are the best for beginners and moderate level hobbyists. We can explain things in great detail, sure, but you might not understand half of what we say until you get a grip on the basics and then some. Besides, your dad will probably want to read them when you're done so that he can understand his new toy.

My next advice is to go to www.ecosystemaquarium.com and learn about the ecosystem method of filtration. It makes reeftanks nearly foolproof, reducing maintenance while improving growth & survival.


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## fishn00b

I noticed you posted that website in another thread here. Is this a new technology that involves something you put in the filter to help keep the system cleaner? I think I did a search and there isn't a LFS around me that has the filtration device.


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## fishn00b

I also was looking at Reverse Osmosis and UV sterilizers that they offer for aquariums. Are these any good to add to a reef aquarium? And what does it actually do? Thanks again.


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## Fishfirst

Reverse osmosis units are good, they take out the nasties from tap water (such as nitrates, phosphates, tds, etc) UV sterilizers are good if you don't quarentine and treat your fish/invert/corals before adding them to the main. Treating fish is easily done with hyposalinity (lowering salinity to a point where the parasite can't live but the fish can), and inverts and corals by quarentining them for 6 weeks to make sure any ich on them is gone (it doesn't have a fish host to feed on). Quarentine tanks are much less expensive than UV sterilizers and can be more effective if you are careful not to cross contaminate.


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## fishn00b

So really I would only need a reverse osmosis unit if I was doing water changes from tap water. This unit isn't hooked up to the actual aquarium and have water run through it continuously? If I plan on buying the R/O Distilled water from Walmart I shouldn't need this... correct? 

Also, if I do quarentine my fish/inverts/corals before adding them to the tank is it also a good idea to run a UV sterilizer or two two just kill anything I might have missed and maybe wipe out any floating algae (if this product does that as well) to keep the water even clearer?


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## Fishfirst

UV sterilizers are a good investment for algae control, but getting an RO unit and the right filtration unit should do that by itself most of the time.


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## TheOldSalt

UV kills the algae & pathogens that the other methods of control sometimes miss.

You can buy bottled Walmart water and have the same results as with an RO unit for a lot less money up front, but eventually the RO water will prove cheaper. I will never use an RO simply due to the environmental irresponsibility of it ( they waste water like you wouldn't believe ) but other people seem to like them.
RO's are not connected to the aquarium system; they hook up only to your main house plumbing.

The ecosystem method involves growing macroalgae under continuous lighting in a nutrient-rich muddy substrate in a separate container through which tank water flows. The results of this seemingly simple thing are remarkable, with an average of a 90% increase in longterm survivability & growth among all organisms, cleaner water, elimination of lateral line disease, elimination of other disease outbreaks, a greatly lessened need for water changes, elimination of nuisiance algae while promoting the growth of desirable species, and finally the filter chamber itself serves as a refugium in which numerous tiny food organisms can reproduce to later flow into the tank.
It's expenive because only one compny is currently offering the stuff needed, but as this method becomes the new standard the price will drop as more competitors enter the field.


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## fishn00b

I see. Thanks a lot guys. I guess I will buy an RO unit because it did seem like bottled Walmart water will become expensive. I will also look into this "miricle mud" and perhaps even purchase it. With that hooked up would it be a good idea to create one or two sumps as well, made out of a 10 gallon tank? I read the DIY article that I believe Fishboy posted in the respective forum. If I would go with this method what material would I put in the sump that would act as a cleaning device? Also I was reading on another site {link removed} that they have cleaner clams as well that act to reduce nitrates in the tank and you place them in the sump if I'm correct... or in the tank. 

Either way I just want to have a lot of filtration as effective and as much as safely possible so that the tank stays pristine.

Also Old Salt, do you know how much an ecosystem filter would cost? I checked out their site but I don't think I saw any prices (or I missed them). And if so, would you know when other companies might start offering this new type of filtration.


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## TheOldSalt

You HAVE to keep your MiracleMud in a separate chamber. Putting it in the main tank would be a disaster. The ecosystem method involves growing the caulerpas in the mud in the sump under constant light. The plants are the "filtration device."

The jerks at that other site don't know what they're talking about half the time, and they argue so much amongst themselves that it's a miracle that any actual accurate info ever gets posted. It's a popularity contest crossed with a giant game of king-of-the-mountain. I should know, since I used to be one of the Sharks over there until being surrounded by morons became too much to bear. Besides, the fact that it's a commercial sales site makes free discussion of competing companies' products verboten, which really ruins your chance of learning anything truly useful. Anyway, if you think that "cleaning clams" are going to be any help, then think again. The clams are even harder to keep than the corals, and if you keep the tank _too_ clean for them they will wither & die the moment your lights degrade enough to be unable to support them.
There IS such a thing as OVERKILL in a reef tank. If you go too far in one aspect, you'll wreak havoc on another aspect.

Ecosystems are expensive, but still comparable to other systems, being in the 275-400 range.


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## fishn00b

I just placed that link because I saw thats where they sell the cleaner clams. I don't go on the message boards I don't want to deal with that, this is the only place I learn anything. I know that the MiracleMud goes in its own separate tank, as I was reading, but they suggest as well that you are to keep only 3/8ths of an inch of sand in the tank (not live sand) and you can't put carbon in any other filters in the tank. 

If I set up my reef tank with and Ecosystem, two of the recommended protein skimmers (ie if I need a 200 gallon one, I will get two), a UV Sterilizer, and maybe a sump with some sort of filtering device (I still don't know what I would put in a sump) would that be overkill in the filtration? 

I do still plan on placing the fish/corals/inverts in their own separate tank before putting them into the main to kill off any disease, but I just wanted to UV to be safe, but if it will do harm, then I will do without it.


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## redpaulhus

Ditto the above.
(I don't have an ecosystem but use a similar principle on my tanks - ecosystem is a great way to do that without all the headaches I went thru getting my method working).

For that size tank I would look into a sump mounted protein skimmer - something like a Euro-reef or ASM or similar.
Also, get the tank pre-drilled with overflows - you don't want to be using a hang-on overflow (sooner or later they will fail and flood the room). 
(the books will talk about this)

See if there are any reef clubs in your area - local reefers can provide alot of help for free - letting you know which stores are good (and which to avoid), often helping with things like free coral "frags" and portions of livesand to seed your sandbed fauna, etc. I know that the local reef club here is Boston is a big reason there are so many successfull reefkeepers here.


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## fishn00b

Lol, I understand what you are saying. I do plan on quarantining my fish with possibly a 29 gallon tank? Is that about the right size to use? Also with the pre-drilled overflows... what do you mean by that... is that were the water comes back from the sumps and is put back into the top of that tank? I don't know if my fish store will do that for me... I'm trying to find another one in the area but I don't really know of any place. If anyone has any good places on the Jersey S****, I'd much appreciate it. 

I don't know of any reef clubs in the area too... This summer I was planning on driving to Boston to check out their club if they were having a meeting and hopefully finding a few people to jumpstart my hobby.


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## redpaulhus

The boston club definately rocks - I'm a member myself - as for the NJ area, try http://www.njreefersclub.com/

For the tank - take a look at "reef ready" style tanks - either online or at your local LFS. Many good stores will drill the tank for you, if you'd like (which allows you more control over the design and placement of the openings).

Here's some info on the pre-drilled tanks from All-glass:

http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquariums/megaflow.shtml


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## fishn00b

Thanks, a lot I will definatly take a look at the sites and hopefully get to a few meetings. As for the question for my filtration I'm still trying to see if that what I had proposed a post or two before would be optimal for the tank in keeping it as clean as possible so that I can cut back on water changes.


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## fishn00b

Are tank stands for aquariums over 200 gallons or so re-enforced with metal bars inside because of all the weight? I want to put the aquarium on some nice cherry wood cabinets sold at a local home depot so that it would better go with the room but I don't know if it will hold. Should I custom make metal supports for it?


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## redpaulhus

I would look at going with a stand designed for that tank - most, if not all, of the stuff at HD just won't take the weight.

You could either make (or have a cabinetmaker make) an outer enclosure of nice cherry that sits around the stand and hides the stand. (although I suspect that anybody making/selling 200g tanks has high-quality stands with cherry and other finishes to choose from - thats not a standard "off the shelf" size tank from a company like All-Glass, tanks that big are usually custom built).


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## fishn00b

Yeah, the tank does have a stand that is built for it, but since I'm redoing the basement of the house I want it to match the color scheme. The stand is just plain oak, and looks very unappealing so I don't want to use it. I don't think they sell a cherry stand for the tank I'm looking at, so I was trying to find out other options, or even if I could make one. I'll keep looking then and hopefully find someone that can make it for me. Thanks for replying. 

I am getting the tank custom drilled though, but I was wondering should I connect a sump filtration device to the tank with the ecosystem filtration and a skimmer or two? Thanks again for all your guys help.


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## TheOldSalt

It will take awhile for any ecosystem algae to grow, so you'll need some other filtration before it does. A big skimmer in the sump ( or two ) along with a mechanical filter somewhere on the system should work okay, and a UV is optional, but always a good idea. The odds are that you'll be able to get a bunch of algae clippings for free from someone, maybe even a shop, because the stuff grows like crazy and has to be pruned back weekly. You can get a bunch of those and put them in your mud chamber to get your algae growing quickly. Once it's grown you can shift gears and cut back on the other filters, or you can keep them going. The ecosystem people frown on skimming, but it really doesn't hurt and even helps.


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## fishn00b

That sounds like a good idea. I definately am going to put all those filtration devices on the tank, but do I need to have the tank drilled multiple times for all of the filters that will be on it? The tank that I'm buying comes with two holes drilled in it... one on each side of the tank for the pipes to extract the water. Should the different types of filtration be separated from one another, or can they be in series with each other? 

Also what do you mean by a mechanical filter? Is this just the sump or is it actually like some sort of Bio-Wheel filtration that HOB or is a canister filter.


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## TheOldSalt

Sumps are for having one place to put all your equipment so that you don't need separate hookups for each thing directly to the tanks, so if you put all your filters & such in the sump, you can avoid drilling the tank so much.

Mechanical filters perform mechanical, or physocal, filtration. That is, they are what filter out particulates. HOB, Canister, sponge, schnellenfilsser...these are all mechanical filters.


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## fishn00b

Ok, I think I get what you are saying. 

So in my one sump, I can hook up two protein skimmers and a UV sterilizer. Then in another drilled hole I can hook up my Canister filter. Then finally, I can hook up the ecosystem filter in its own hole. So I would have a minimum of 6 holes drilled in the tank (2 holes for each line, 1 at each end of the tank).


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## Fishfirst

nope, you only need the two holes you've got really... the sump can have all those things in it and you can connect the sump to the 2 holes one intake, one output.


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## fishn00b

So what your saying, is that instead of a canister filter, I should put the filtration device in a section of the sump, or can i hook up canister filter in series with it. I think I'm going to buy a sump that is already created and make sure that it can hold all this material inside, or do you guys think I should create one out of a larger fish tank. I have no idea how to make a sump, so I think buying one would be a better option.


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## TheOldSalt

Either way is fine, but a premade one would be a bit easier although considerably more expensive. A "Long" tank works better as a sump since it gives you more room to put stuff. The UV should go FROM the sump back TO the tank, that is, the return line to the tank should pass through the UV for best results. Everything else hooks up to the sump only.


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## fishn00b

Alright, excellent. I'll have to look into the sumps that I can buy, because I don't want to mess it up. If I do end up having a problem with buying a sump, I can always try and build one with plans I find online.

I wanted to ask though about what brands of equipment I should buy though. (I also want to thank TOS for replying to my heater question in the equipment thread because I was just going to use a freshwater heater). What brand heater should I look into buying that has worked well for you guys, and where would I put it? Some web sites say it can go in the sump, but I believe it wouldn't keep the water that heated. If my tank is drilled and they put a cover over the pipes that intake the water, can I place the heater so that I isn't visable?

Also what brand canister filter would be a wise decision if I do decide to go that route?

What type/brand of UV Sterilizer should I buy for a 220 gallon tank? And what types of powerheads (I do plan on putting coral in the tank so I know I might have to get some strong powerheads to control the flow and then a few to just turn on during the day to feed the coral)?

Thanks again.


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## Guest

Hi I'm banned!  hurray!


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## Guest

sigh...
another annoyance this site is going to have to ban.


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## Fishfirst

I'd go with the turbo twist 18 watt. The water gets more time with the UV light making them more affective. 
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium...rs_ozonizers_coralife_turbo-twist.asp?CartId=


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## fishn00b

That looks like a very good UV Sterilizer. Is marinedepot a good site to buy supplies off of because I am looking for a quality dealer? 

I was also looking at the protein skimmers on the site and the Aqua C Remoras hang on the back of the aquarium. Is this the right one or is there one that will go in a sump. I don't know if I want to have anything on the top so I might just go with the Euroreef CS Series protein skimmer that is in sump. Would this be a logical choice http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=ER1151 ?

Also are Mag-Drive Supreme Powerheads good? I was thinking about getting two 950 GPH and two 145 GPH (to feed the corals, they would be on during intervals during the day). Are there any better powerheads out there?

Thanks again.


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## Fishfirst

Marine Depot, liveaquaria or dr. fosters and smith, hellolights.com, all are good repitable websites. I've delt with the first two with good success and quality. Aqua C remoras can be put in the sump or hang on the back of the main display. I like maxi-jets, and penquin powerheads, but none are the power you want with the first one you listed.


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## fishn00b

Will I have to add more powerheads then to the system (if I decide to go with the less strong powerheads above), or should I just try and keep the Mag 3s I have listed. I know you are supposed to have some ridiculous amount of flow per number of gallons you have in the tank, right?


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## TheOldSalt

You can use fewer powerheads if you use the Powersweep model, since it sweeps back & forth all day giving the tank some surge. Get about 4 of the biggest powersweeps you can find and you should have no trouble keeping your corals happy, and you won't have to buy any extra wavetimers.


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## fishn00b

Ok, so if I just go with the four Powersweep models I will have enough flow for the corals and tank to be happy. I don't think I understand what you mean by wavetimers though. If I buy the Powersweeps will I have to get any wavetimers and what are they?

I also am looking at a Coralife Metal Halide hood. I comes with 3 150 Watt Metal Halide Lights, and 4 96 Watt Compact Fluorescent lights. I am buying 3 more Metal Halide lights at 400 Watts a piece. Can I put those 400 watt bulbs into the spots where the 150 go (they are both double ended) and have the bulbs output to their 400 watts with everything being safe? With all those lights the aquarium should have 7.2 watts per gallon, if I remember that should be enough for corals, correct?

I had another question concerning the live sand. With the Ecosystem filter it says that live sand can actually hurt it, but you can keep half an inch in the tank. If I keep a half inch of depth of live sand in there would it help or hurt the Ecosystem filter. Also If I do go this route, what type of live sand is best?


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## Fishfirst

apparently you won't need (wavetimers)them with powersweeps, although I've never used them... Wavetimers are just a big timer than turns your powerheads on and off throught the day. 
As for the metal halides, I believe the output is the same unless the balast is made for a larger wattage. 
As for the livesand... you can use regular sand and seed it with liverock or livesand to make it "livesand" and I doubt 1/2 inch would hurt your ecosystem filter, but it won't help necessarily either... its just nicer to look at than bare bottom.


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## fishn00b

Yeah, well on the website they say that if you have more than an inch it could ruin the effects of the filter. So I'm going to put about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of livesand on the bottom of the tank so that it looks good. Hopefully I'll be able to add live rock to the system as well. 

Well the hood I was looking to buy is:

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idProduct=ES53510

And I was going to replace all the Metal Halide lights with 400 Watt 10,000k Bulbs (is 20,000k better?) So hopefully the lights will work with it. Here is a link to the bulbs if you wanted to see:

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idProduct=MB8461

Thanks again.


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## Fishfirst

like I said before, I don't believe it changes the output of the actual lights unless the balast is MADE for 400 watt bulbs. So basically the 400 watt bulb with a 150 watt balast will not produce 400 watts of light, rather 150.


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## fishn00b

Oh, I didn't quite understand what you meant. I was a little unsure what the balast was. My apologies.


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## Fishfirst

lol sorry... my mistake... I know lighting is complicated and I went through that "what?" phase too... hahahah, infact I still can't keep my facts straight sometimes..


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## fishn00b

It's quite alright. I think I do understand what you mean, but it is very hard to find a ballast that will support 3 400 watt bulbs. One i did find was very small (It might of only held 1 bulb) and was around 15 inches long. I guess I will have to buy a few of these and attach them above the tank somehow.


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## fishn00b

With that light fixture that I posted, are the ballasts already installed in the hood? Or do I have to buy a ballast to support the lights. (If that is the case there is a hood I found that supports 4 x 400 watt bulbs so I will have to go with that).

Also when setting up a quarantine tank, do I have to have everything attached that a normal tank would then normally have. For example, I need a protein skimmer, UV Sterlizer, Sump, and live sand? Or is there certain equipment that is used for quarantine tanks.


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## TheOldSalt

Actually, those are things you absolutely DON'T want on a quarantine tank. If you tried to use any medicine, those things would ruin it.


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## fishn00b

Well, I know you should separate your fish/inverts/corals from the main tank for I think it was six weeks before you put them into the main tank. What should this tank have besides the water and live sand?


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## Fishfirst

you just want water, a pvc pipe, and a hob filter with some filter media on it (without the carbon, and a heater... thats all you need.


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## fishn00b

I'm guessing the PVC pipe is for the fish to have something to hide in... I think I'm going to pick up a 29 gallon tank from Walmart. I'm assuming everything that is in there would be sufficient. I obviously have to cycle the tank though, correct?

Also if I plan on putting corals in there, I would have to upgrade the lights to atleast 200 watts?

Thanks.


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## Fishfirst

cycling would be good as long as you keep the carbon out of the filter. If you put in corals, you shouldn't need 200 watts for that tank... as it is a temperary stay but say 50 or so watts wouldn't be a bad thing. Correct me if I'm wrong tos.


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## TheOldSalt

You don't quarantine corals the way you do fish. Quarantine is a much shorter-length process for corals. 
With corals, you shake them around a bit and flip them over & over in your hands looking for hitchhikers. During this time you must be extremely careful to avoid damaging the flesh by mashing donw on it and getting it cut up on it's own skeleton.
Then you give it a quick freshwater dip to flush off the hitchhikers you can & can't see. Then you put it back in the Q-tank and let it sit for a day, and repeat the dip again the next day. After that, you can use a round of antibiotics if you want, but it's optional. Look for signs of infection, blackband disease, or necrosis. If it looks good after a couple of more days and there is no discoloration where you held it, then it should be ready to put into the main tank. This whole process takes 4 days or so. Any longer than that and you'll start having problems.


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## fishn00b

I see... so basically I should just inspect coral and spash it with freshwater (should the freshwater be dechlorinated?). Does this same process hold for liverock as well? And should I just let the invertebrates sit in the tank during this time as well if I am trying to quarantine them, and when the corals are done, place the inverts in with the corals.

Which should I quarantine first? If the corals and inverts can live for as long as the quarantine time is for fish (I think it was 6 weeks) then I will get the corals first. If not then I will get some fish and then begin placing the corals in the tank. 

Thanks for all the information guys.


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## fishn00b

I was looking on the marinedepot site for the Ecosystem aquariums, and the largest sump they have is only big enough for 135 gallons. If I go to a LFS will they carry the larger refugiums that the Ecosystem site says will be good for up to 500 gallons, or be able to order it for me?

Thanks for your help.


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## Fishfirst

LFS's usually don't understand what a fuge is... they'll usually give you a blank stare... BUT if they don't, you know you've got a pretty good one, and they should be able to stock it.


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## TheOldSalt

Any store that carries the eco line should be able to order any available size.

Do NOT freshwater dip live rock. NEVER. You can take a spray bottle full of freshwater and spray it on the outside if you see something that needs to be removed, but if you let freshwater get inside your liverock, it won't be live for very long afterward.

yes, the water should be dechlorinated.

You quarantine corals to prevent CORAL diseases and to prevent the import of pest species of inverts. they do carry fish diseases to a small extent, but you don't quarantine them for that reason. However, if you want to be safe, you add the inverts first, and then add the fish only a few months afterward


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## fishn00b

Excellent thanks a lot guys. 

I remembered one more thing I wanted to ask and that was on overflow boxes and things like that. The sumps and all the filter media is going to be drained to a sump below the main aquarium (I hope that is the correct way to do it). Many people have been talking about during a power outtage they need an automatic shut off or something of the sort so that the water does not overflow onto the floor. What are all these people talking about, and how can I prevent this from happening if the power is cut so that the water stays in the tank and can go an hour or so without power. 

Thanks so much for you help.


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## TheOldSalt

That's why you use an overflow intead of an ordinary siphon.
The pump is in the sump, pumping water up to the tank. This fills the tank up higher than the overflow, which results in water spilling down the overflow and back down into the sump. If the power goes out, water is no longer pumped upward, which means it is likewise no longer pouring downward. Everything stops. Whatever water was in the return line upward flows back down, but that's it. When the power comes back on, the pump restarts and everything goes back to normal.

ONE THING to watch out for though:

The return line to the tank must be above water or nearly so. Otherwise, when the power goes out it becomes a siphon, running in reverse to drain the entire tank all over the floor. Having the water return to the tank at the top of the tank means that air gets into the return the moment the power stops, thereby breaking any siphon effect.
That's all the automatic shutoff you need.


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## fishn00b

Oh alright. Thanks a lot for all your help.


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