# Aquarium salt



## Kirrie

Last week I added some neon tetras to my ten gallon. I haven't had problems adding new fish in the 7 or 8 months I've had my tanks now, but I think these neons brought ich with them. I have a dwarf gourami, 6 neons, 2 otos, and an African Dwarf Frog. Last night I started to raise the temperature and today I am going to remove the frog so I can start adding aquarium salt. My question is, will the otos tolerate the salt? I have read that they will but also that they won't and I just want to be sure. I wouldn't have a problem moving them but they've been moved around a lot in the past week because I had to move them out of another tank. I don't want to stress them out by moving them again unless I absolutely have to.


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## TheOldSalt

Otos are fragile, but salt is safer for them than most other options.


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## Kirrie

So they would be better off with the aquarium salt than being moved to another (uncycled) tank? Also, how much salt should I add at first? I cant remember what I was told last time and all of the articles I read suggest different measurements.


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## Jaysee

You can simply raise the temp of the tank to at least 86. Salt is not needed to treat ich if you use heat - salt isn't going to make it any deader. using or not using salt does not make the heat treatment any more or less effective - the heat alone cures the fish. Spots should be gone after 5 days but continue the treatment for the full 2 weeks. I have yet to find a fish that could not handle the heat treatment, and I've administered it to cold water fish.


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## weedkiller

salt is a good way to keep ich at bay apparently.. it says 1 teaspoon for every 10 litres, I dose by half of that with every water change so if you need to treat with salt as a med I can increase the dose so it has an effect when treated


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## Kirrie

I used 2 tsp (1 tsp per 5 gallons). The temperature is around 84-85 degrees and the airstone is running. I moved both otos and the frog to another tank with a heater and filter. I will be doing water changes every day or so because it is not cycled. All of the fish seem to be acting fine so far.


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## Jaysee

Ich ought to be eradicated from the tank, not kept at bay.


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## weedkiller

Jaysee said:


> Ich ought to be eradicated from the tank, not kept at bay.


your missing the point... kept at bay means kept out of the tank, the salt kills the parasite whilst it is free swimming from the water you have added when you clean your tank, its not like it keeps it in a corner lol :fish:


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## Kirrie

What should I do if the otos get ich? I can't put them back in the tank with salt.


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## Jaysee

weedkiller said:


> your missing the point... kept at bay means kept out of the tank


Oh is that what you want the idiom to mean?


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## Jaysee

Kirrie said:


> What should I do if the otos get ich? I can't put them back in the tank with salt.


They should be treated regardless if they "get" it because they were exposed. It is entirely likely that they already have it and good tank maintenance is treating them as such. Raise the temp to at least 86. That's really all there is to it. You ignored my previous advice and you'll probably ignore it again. Best of luck.


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## weedkiller

Jaysee said:


> Oh is that what you want the idiom to mean?


Kept at bay is kept away....... its a figure of speech as the meaning of an idiom would suggest
The combination of a small dose of salt and a base temp of around 78+ seems to work great for many, probably works at keeping other problems away too as salt is a great antiseptic


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## Kirrie

There is no need to be rude...I was only asking for advice. I didn't ignore your advice, I just chose to raise the temperature and use the salt because I believe it is my best option. I will only be raising the heat in the tank with the otos and frog because I don't think they will tolerate the salt.


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## lohachata

if even just 1 fish in a tank comes down with ich , it is important to treat the entire tank without removing any of the fish....by moving fish to another tank you are just spreading the disease...


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## Kirrie

I wanted to use salt in the main tank and I knew the frog couldn't handle it and I wasn't sure about the otos. I figured it would be better to move them to another tank and figure out another safe way to treat them, than to expose them to salt. Nothing lived in the other tank Im using before I put them in it, its really just a hospital tank. The main tank is being treated with heat and salt because the fish had it pretty bad, the hospital tank is only being treated with heat for now.


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## Jaysee

weedkiller said:


> Kept at bay is kept away....... its a figure of speech as the meaning of an idiom would suggest


Yes, idiom is synonymous for figure of speech. Thank you - "Kept away" perfectly illustrates the point I was making, that ich should not have to be kept away. You treat it, it's gone, and that's that.


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## weedkiller

but if its kept away it wont be there in the 1st place so you don't need to treat what isn't there, I would rather keep the bad stuff at bay/keep it away than have to treat it later 
the idea of slightly salted tanks in this respect kills the parasite on entry while its free swimming so therefore treatment afterwards with ich treatments is unnecessary, bear in mind the damage ich treatments can do to other things such as your plants,
prevention is sometimes better than cure
also im not saying this is set in stone but there are beliefs that this works and I use the method and so far.... fingers crossed and touch wood I have had no problems and my tank seems very healthy


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## Jaysee

See, i knew i had your statement pegged. Using salt as a preventative is straight out of the dark ages of fish keeping. salt is an irritant, causing the fish to waste energy unnecessarily producing extra slime coat. Whether you think that's a good thing or not is determined by whether or not you use salt long term. Personally I would rather the fish use that energy on anything else. Once the parasite has been eradicated from the tank through treatment, there is no need to continue to treat.....unless the parasite is just being kept at bay.

I don't have to worry about treating my show tanks for ich and damaging my plants (if I had any) because I treat all new fish for parasites (external and internal) while they are in quarantine, which prevents parasites from entering the show tanks in the first place. I whole heatedly agree - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, which is why I do what I do. Most people don't fully utilize their quarantine tanks.

Look, you can add salt with the heat treatment if you want. You can also dance and sing and light candles. It'll all "work" because simply using heat works.


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## weedkiller

have you been drinking too much coffee lmao
the dark ages eh? still works for me and many
btw I did say


weedkiller said:


> also im not saying this is set in stone but there are beliefs that this works and I use the method and so far.... fingers crossed and touch wood I have had no problems and my tank seems very healthy


as it says on the packet
"provides essential electolites freshwater fish need to reach peak coloration and vitality. Improves gill function, reduces stress, facilitates osmoregulation and promotes disease recovery"
seeing as you seem to like picking holes lets see you try and pick holes in that statement lol
if you think this is incorrect then I guess you should go see a solicitor and sue API and other manufacturers for misleading statements and possibly fraud instead of trying to jump over me.
I really couldn't give a monkeys what you think regarding my statement, some one asked a question, people answer... not every ones is the same 
sorry if you thought my response contradicted yours in some way


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## Kirrie

Sorry I'm kind of ignoring the whole debate going on... But I've always read and heard of other people treating ich with heat and salt successfuly, so thats what I did. Now unfortunately, 4 of the neons died over night. The ich seemed to have actually been getting worse since the first day I noticed it, so maybe I started treatment a little too late. I still have a dwarf gourami and 2 neons fighting the ich so hopefully its not too late for them. How much longer should it take for the parasites to fall of and be killed?


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## weedkiller

you was right to ignore it... some have anger issues it seems lol
sorry your fish died, it may be quoted that its because you didn't follow some ones instructions because what they say is gospel lmao
I have never had a tank with ich, (maybe because I have a slightly salted tank who knows lol) so im not the best one to give advice on how long it takes, from what I understand it takes 10 to 14 days
did you raise the temps to 88ish?(increase aeration with increased temps) and did you add enough salt? (2 table spoon to every 10Gal is what ive read being quoted) did you remove any carbon from your filter?


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## Kirrie

I raised the temp to 86 and added two teaspoons of salt, as that is what it says on the box, and I also added an airstone. I didnt think of removing carbon from the filter because I thought was only done when using some sort of medication. I didnt think it would soak up the aquarium salt. If thats the case, the tank is only being treated with heat. Should I take out the carbon, do a water change, and add the salt again?


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## weedkiller

it would be worth a go... unless you have a Salinity Tester to check the salt content, im not 100% sure if carbon would soak the salt, maybe one of our nice helpful members could answer that better but its what I have seen quoted as one of the things you need to make sure you do, add another degree or 2 at most as 86 is the minimum but only if you think your fish could take it
Since you're dealing with ich, it's important that you keep up with water changes during this time so that you can clean out any cysts and free floating ich protazoa. If you've got gravel, it's important to gravel vac or clean it out good every 5-7 days. 
It's perfectly fine to do a water change during salt medicating... just keep in mind that you only medicate the new water you're putting back in since the salt won't evaporate from the tank. 
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich.php hope this helps you understand it a little more


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## emc7

salt is always an argument. I support the use of salt to treat ich, fungus and some other things, esp. in cichlids since they tolerate it well, often better than alternatives. The routine sale of aquarium salt to all fishkeepers, though. is IMO, an outdated practice. It is still commonly practised by many goldfish keepers, but their is no justification for a blanket recommendation for all FW fish. And there are indeed, fish and plants that should avoid salt as much as possible. 

Fish that benefit from salt, such as mollies and rift lake cichlids, do even better with the right "salts". Marine salt for brackish fish, cichlid salt (which has much more Mg and Ca than Na) for rift lake cichlids.


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## Kirrie

Thanks everyone. Unforunately all 6 of the neons have died in the last 24 hours. The only remaining fish in the tank is the gourami. I didn't realize it could get that bad so quickly. I started treating the tank the day after I found it and it only got worse. :/


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## emc7

Sorry to hear it. I can't say this enough QT, QT, QT. It won't save new fish, but it will save your old fish from new disease.

Usually, I would say, just move media from an established tank to "recycle", but if you are fighting disease, do it from scratch.


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## Kirrie

Quarantine is difficult for me because I cant have any more tanks running, so any other tanks I have set up, I have to convince my mom its worth it, and then its not cycled. I cant keep fish in an uncycled tank by doing extra water changes because I go between my mom and dads house all the time and no one else will change the water for me. I just happen to be at my moms this week so I am able to do water changes for the otos and frog in their uncycled tank, any other time, it wouldnt be possible. So its a lose-lose situation for me. Any fish I try to quarantine will die in an uncycled tank, any time I add fish to my tank, I risk bringing infection, which I did this time.

I guess I have learned my lesson about which pet stores I trust though. Every fish I have bought from PetSmart has died within two weeks, except for my betta. All of my fish that I bought from Petco are still alive and never had anything worse than a fungus infection once. I wont be buying anymore fish from PetSmart. If I cant quarantine my fish like I would prefer, the least I can do is buy them from a store that takes care of the fish.


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## emc7

Agreed. Experience teaches you to where not to shop. If your tanks are healthy, cycling the next one is as easy as adding a sponge filter to an existing tank for a few weeks and then moving it over when you set up another. I keep my Qt/hosp. tanks empty and dry between uses, but have 2 filters in each big tank.


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## Kirrie

I usually keep extra media in the filter of my 29 gallon, but I am using that right now to cycle my 5.5 gallon. For now, the oto and frog tank will be relying on water changes and prime. If it takes much longer to fight off the ich and make sure its gone, Ill see what I can do to move some of the filter media to the frog/oto tank.

The next neons I buy will be from Petco, and Ill be sure to tell PetSmart why that is. I really hate going in there and having to hear them give people really bad advice. Anytime I speak up the employee just reminds the person that I don't work there so I must not know anything. The people at the Petco here are also much more friendly. I honestly think its because Petco is outside of town and PetSmart is right in the middle of it.


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## weedkiller

im the same as you kirrie... a qt is not an option, I have 2 tanks, a 190L corner and a 64L bow front, the larger is the main and the smaller is the wifes choice of fish, mainly guppies, lots of guppies, and neons.. and bejeeeez do they like breeding in a slightly salted tank lol
if I got another I would like a 6ft for a couple of Tiger Oscars (my fav) but the wife wont let me, guess you see who wears the trousers here, I find her dresses tight across the shoulders though.
Its good to have trusted stores and always worth spending time watching what you are about to buy as it can save a lot of heartache.
i was in one store and see one of the assistants just dump a returned fish back into a populated tank and i walked out of there there and then, and have never been back since, [email protected] are one of the better, not perfect as they will sell you anything as usual but they do care for the fish right from what i see.
as emc7 says about cycling, add new filters to a cycled tank and it will be done in a couple of weeks, certainly worked for me 
good luck in sorting it all out, remember to relax and stay calm, above all never panic


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## Kirrie

Thanks for all of the advice. I'm really hoping everything goes well. I've done all that I know to do, so hopefully that's enough. 

Someday soon my parents won't be able to limit the numberof tanks i have , and then I'll be able to quarantine fish. Although, if I end up in a dorm room during college, that may be a bit of a problem. The most ill probably be able to have is a small tank for a betta. That should be interesting...


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## Kirrie

The gourami is now floating in the tank like this  the ich also seems to have gotten ten times worse. He really didn't look this bad just a day ago... There is salt in the tank and the temperature is up, so how can it be getting worse? I'm going to do a water change and hope it helps in some way.


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## weedkiller

How accurate is your temp gauge?
it pays to have a good accurate one, make sure your temps are at 86-88
its sad to lose a whole tank this way, all you can do is put it down to experience and move on, build it up again and better than before, only good comes from the bad in the end


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## Kirrie

Can you see the picture I tried to post? I cant. I have a thermometer in the tank and also an optical one (or whatever my dad calls it) that you point the laser at whatever you want to measure and it tells you the temp. So thats pretty accurate lol. 

I also found that the otos DO have ich now. So I did a 50% change on the main tank, and put the otos back in there and treated the tank with kordons ich attack. I usually try to stay away from medication, but I felt that the salt treatment wasnt effective and I know I cant treat the otos with salt.The poor frog is all alone in quarantine now. He cant get ich can he?


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## Jaysee

Hahahha anger issues! I nearly pissed myself laughing  


Most tetras are very sensitive to salt, so it's not a surprise that they died. It's a shame, but unfortunately people will give advice on things that they have no experience with. It's truly wonderful that weedkiller has never treated for ich. However, when you've kept enough fish for long enough, you see just about everything. At least once.

As far as I know, frogs cannot get ich.


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## Kirrie

I have treated tetras with salt before with no issues. The ich just got really bad. I also posted about this on another forum and many people recommended heat and salt. Many of them have used the same treatment for ich with success. It just didnt work in this case.


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## emc7

There are some really bad strains of ich. Some are resistant to salt, some are more heat-resistant. If the temp isn't high enough to kill it, ich will reproduce faster when warmer, though it is often a sudden temp drop that triggers an outbreak. Most treatments say to raise the temp because it speeds up the life cycle and therefore shortens the time you need to treat, but higher temps can indeed make on outbreak worse. If your ich is susceptible to your treatment and you catch it early, at the first flashing, you can sometimes cure it completely, but you must treat the whole tank an all the fish. If you are unlucky enough to have a strain resistant to your first attempt, you can lose all your fish before you find something that works.


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## Kirrie

I'm not sure what I had, but it didn't seem to get better from the time I started treating it. I lost the otos yesterday. So the only survivor is the frog and he's in his own tank. I've raised the temperatur . In the main tank to 90. Im going to leave the tank empty and keep doing water changes for at least 3 weeks before I think about restocking because I want to make sure it is gone. Would it help to treat with ich attack during this time too?


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## Blackfinshark

i would drain the whole tank. take out all the gravel. rinse it really well with hot water. you could probably even put that small of a tank in the dishwasher with no soap and just a half capful of bleach. run the dishwashing cycle 2-3 times to be sure it washes all of the bleach out of it. then start all over with a fresh tank.

or you could just medicate the tank. i would still replace all of the gravel with new gravel. clean the tank out completely and rinse with hot water. add new water with no gravel and medicate the tank. then take it all out and rinse again and start over with fresh gravel and fresh water.

i would soak the filter in really hot water and other decorations to be sure to get off any ich. don't have any carbon in your filter when medicating. if it's cartridge type just remove the whole cartridge and only have the bio sponge in the filter.


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## Kirrie

Thanks for the reply. but I ended up tearing the tank down and replacing everything when I noticed some ostracods crawling around a few weeks ago.


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## Blackfinshark

well that's the thing with aquariums. the tank and stuff is the expensive part. new fish don't cost that much unless you get some really exotic rare fish or something. most fish are in the $2-$5 range. some are $6-$8. 

the tanks, filters, decorations, etc. are the expensive part of having fish. you don't lose that when something goes wrong so easy to start over.


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## Kirrie

The only thing I really replaced was the gravel. I wanted a different color anyway. I was able to use another filter that I had and I washed the heater so I reused that as well. Unfortunately I had to throw out all of the plants because I could get the ostracods out of them, but a friend on another forum sent me some of her extras


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## Blackfinshark

cool. i put sand in my new aquarium. i really like it better than gravel i think. i may change my smaller tank to sand at some point i'm not sure.

sand you put in the tank and let is sit for a day or two and then stir it up to get out all of the air bubbles. if left nitrates can get in there and when the bubbles come out it can kill your fish. this is avoided if you do it right though. stir it up and then it's good to go. when you vacuum you just hold the vacuum about 1/2"-1" over the sand and it sucks the poop and excess food up without sucking the sand up the tube. there's videos on youtube about it.

the good thing is food and poop doesn't go down into the sand like it does on gravel it just sits on top of it. really this gets rid of any extra food since the fish eat it up later on since it's sitting on top of the sand. you just have to vacuum the poop up.

when you vacuum gravel you never get all of it out. there's always alot of poop and food still down in there. 
gravel has good bacteria in it though. sand doesn't have so much so it's important to have a good bio sponge filter or bio wheel in your filter for the good bacteria to grow on.

certain fish like corys prefer sand because the gravel can wear down their barbels over time. the sand doesn't. it's really just whatever you like better i guess. i used the brand super naturals for sand. i used a 20lb bag for my 29 gallon tank. it is the perfect amount. about 1 inch of sand at the bottom of the tank. it came with a packet called bio-magnet clarifier in the bag. i put it in and the water was crystal clear in less than 30 minutes after i filled the tank up. you have to rinse the sand first before putting it in the tank. i wouldn't recommend using pool sand or play sand like some people do. it's alot dirtier than aquarium sand is. i think the bag i bought was $15. not too expensive.

anyways good luck with your new startup on your tank.


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## Kirrie

Thanks. And thank you for the sand tips. It will be a while before Im actually able to switch to sand as I have to pay for everything that goes into my 3 tanks and my hermit crab tank with just a babysitting job. 

I really don't think its all that bad if some food/waste gets in the gravel if you have live plants. It kind of acts like fertilizer. Although I wouldn't purposely over feed my fish for that purpose. I don't add anything to my tanks for my plants and they have grown well with low lighting and whatever gets trapped in the gravel.


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## Blackfinshark

yeah true if you have live plants. i don't have any plants in my aquarium just rocks. i had some fake plants in there but i took them out. it just makes the tank easier to clean to me. plants get in the way. some people put dirt and then gravel over it and put plants in there. everyone seems to like doing things a different way. just choose what suits you best.

i've seen tanks with just a few small rocks on the bottom or jewels and some with no substrate at all. it just comes down to what kind of look you are going for i guess.

hmmm i may try something like that on my small tank one day. just buy a bag of those small rocks and use that for my substrate. my gravel is brand new so it will be awhile before i change it out.

i think that's the hard part of this hobby. figuring out what you wanna do. there are so many options. what size tank, what decorations, what substrate, what fish, etc. haha


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## Kirrie

I would have to agree. It seems like there is an endless amount of options, but not an endless amount of space for tanks in my house unfortunately.


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## Blackfinshark

yeah i know. i wanted to get a 55 gallon but the cost was a little more than i wanted to pay and i would need help to take it up the stairs to my room or even carry it from the car to the house. my 29 tank was heavy enough empty. haha

also to get a 55 i would have to get rid of my 29 and 5 to make room for it on my dresser. the bigger tank you get the higher the cost of keeping it up is as well. bigger filters to change out, more water and dechlorinator to use, more fish to buy, more fish food to buy, more decorations to buy, etc. etc.


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## Kirrie

That's true, but the bigger the tank the more options you have for fish and also maintaining good water parameters is easier.

I would gladly replace my 29 and 5.5 with a 55 but I don't think my betta would allow it. He's very aggressive. He even flares at me when I walk by!


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## lohachata

i would love to set up a few more tanks but there is only room in the living room and dining room...we have a 40 flatback hex in the dining room and a 55 in the living room and a 40 breeder in the front entryway..but they are empty...the boss says no....not to mention the 40-50 tanks i have scattered around the yard...lol
we need to find a house with a huge basement...


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## Blackfinshark

Kirrie said:


> That's true, but the bigger the tank the more options you have for fish and also maintaining good water parameters is easier.
> 
> I would gladly replace my 29 and 5.5 with a 55 but I don't think my betta would allow it. He's very aggressive. He even flares at me when I walk by!


i had my black fin sharks and zebras in with my tiger barbs before i got my 29 gallon tank. those tiger barbs are very aggressive. they were always nipping at the other fish. now the fish are happier. i have all the calm fish in the big tank and the tiger barbs in the little tank to fight with themselves. lol

they don't mess with the crab. the crab will pinch them in half!!! haha


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