# Cheap co2 system, jungle fizz factory



## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

My tank is only 10 gallons. It is important to me that my plants are healthy and a huge living portion of the tank. right now I am just doing low light plants as I am using the base floro 1.5 watt/gal. anyways, the question is, is this CO2 system better than nothing for my low to maybe one day mid level plants, or is it a waste and/or bad for my fish. I am using flourish and flourish potassium as well. my plants haven't been doing well so far so I wanted to try this out


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I would try flourish excel before springing for Co2. My understanding is that you need a fair amount of light before its worth it. As for it being bad for fish, you can hurt your fish if you get it too high. You need a way to estimate the co2 in the tank. I think most people use a pH/carbonate hardness tests + a chart. After flourish excel, the next step is DIY yeast in a bottle.


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

I really just want my plants to for a lack of a better word, flourish.. i guess a queston is should I go to mid level lighting to get the jungle effect, or will low light plants be able to get that jungle feel I am going for.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

java fern can get pretty jungle-like in low light. I would try that and flourish excel first and only if you still aren't getting good results, try more light and yeast Co2.


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

yea I have a bunch of low light aquatic plants right now, some are doing okay but most aren't. good call on the excel tho I will put an order in for some of that stuff. I do have some java fern that is in the mail I am looking forward to, along with a selection of other low light plants.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> is this CO2 system better than nothing for my low to maybe one day mid level plants, or is it a waste and/or bad for my fish.


Ph: I have not tried this but from reading many posts it will be a waste of $ and time as it is purported to be virtually useless.


Ph: Per emc with my additions please consider DIY CO2 if you do not want to try Excel. (You attitude appears inconsistent to me in that you are using liquid fertilizers instead of dry fertilizers.)

My thoughts with respect to the basics of minimal CO2 injection are too detailed for me to get into on this forum but this would be your next step.

Should you decide to implement DIY CO2 I would appreciate your trying the Jello CO2 method and reporting how it worked.




Phish said:


> I am using flourish and flourish potassium as well. my plants haven't been doing well so far ...


Ph: Excuse the way I put this but "you have probably been 'messing' with your tank too much".

Keep your filtration media well rinsed in WC water.

Only do 10% weekly WC's and cease dosing with Potassium until your nitrates rise above 10ppm.


Ph: What is your substrate?

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

hey good advice there jones. I didn't use excel at first because I well, didn't know it existed. but I am going to pick some up today on advice from this website. I would like to do some DIY CO2 as well.

and you are right, I very easily could have been playing around with my tank too much, I have had it just over a week and have done so much to it. 

as far as substrate, I didnt realize that stuff existed either when I started, and have been using jsut gravel. while I have considered going to substrate, I really like the look of my gravel and was hoping I could make do with gravel, ferts, and maybe some co2 for low-mid light plants. could you explain to me what dry ferts compared to wet ferts are? 

how often should I be rinsing my filter out? i just checked it for the first time and wow it was way filthy green andhad a big ole snail on it lol.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> as far as substrate, I didnt realize that stuff existed either when I started, and have been using jsut gravel. while I have considered going to substrate, I really like the look of my gravel and was hoping I could make do with gravel, ferts, and maybe some co2 for low-mid light plants.


Ph: Your gravel is a substrate but not what I refer to as an "improved" substrate.

With where you are now headed your gravel will work just fine.




Phish said:


> ... could you explain to me what dry ferts compared to wet ferts are?


Ph: the two principal differences are $ and control.

With a 10G the $ are not really a factor.

The ability to control fertilizer concentrations may be for you.

For now I would stick with just Flourish and Excel until your nitrates get to 15ppm.




Phish said:


> how often should I be rinsing my filter out? i just checked it for the first time and wow it was way filthy green andhad a big ole snail on it lol.


Ph: I believe that you mean filthy brown which had a green tint.

Until you get some experience with your filtration I believe that I would rinse weekly in your WC water.

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

thanks again jones, I really appreciate any extra help I can get. so, just so I can start thinking forward, after nitrates are above 15ppm what do I need to do differently.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The plant people make a big deal of balancing carbon (co2), potassium, and nitrate. If it gets out of whack, you get sick plants and thriving algae. Adding ferts without knowing your current values is kind of risky. There is no upper limit on what you can spend on a planted tank, and if you don't know what you are doing, it will all be wasted. You can buy a bunch of test kits or you can experiment on your own. But for any experimenting, you only want to change one variable at a time and it may be 3 weeks before you tell if you have any improvement. I suggest you get a plant book like this one: http://www.borders.com/online/store/TitleDetail?sku=0764129899 and check out a topic specific forum like http://www.plantedtank.net/.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> There is no upper limit on what you can spend on a planted tank, and if you don't know what you are doing, it will all be wasted. You can buy a bunch of test kits or you can experiment on your own. But for any experimenting, you only want to change one variable at a time and it may be 3 weeks before you tell if you have any improvement.


Ph: IMHO the "experimenting" is the way to go and at 1.5WPG the ease of experimenting is much greater than at 3.0WPG or above.




Phish said:


> ... so, just so I can start thinking forward, after nitrates are above 15ppm what do I need to do differently.


When you get there we will need a report on your plants and hopefully photographs in order to determine what to do next.

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

here are some pictures I just took. I have decided I want to get some substrate in there tomorrow, just cause of the look of it and in reading up I read it can't hurt. the brown flourite stuff seems like it would look good. the close up picture is Marsilea and unknown petsmart plants behind it, 6 days after planting. see that little bit of green in the 4 leaf clovers??

I know Marsilea dies off and regrows, so that is what I am hoping (should I take out of pots?)

I also have some wendtii that is doing pretty well in the front corners and acarhis in the back corners. sorry if I butchered all the spelling in this post

Edit: to be clear this is what I have besides unknown (and prolly not aquatic) pet smart plants

Wendtii, Red (Cryptocoryne wendtii)
Tiger Lotus, Red (Nymphaea zenkeri)
CLOVER, FOUR LEAF (Marsilea quadrifolia)

I also just put in an order for 

Subulata, Dwarf (Sagittaria subulata) 10 Plants per order
Coffeefolia (Anubias barteri v. ‘Coffeefolia’)
Java Fern (Narrow leaf)(Microsorium pteropus)
Petite Nana (Anubias Pygmy Nana)


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> (should I take out of pots?)


Ph: Yes.

Carefully remove the plants from the plastic "pots".

Carefully unwrap the material from around the roots.

Carefully untangle the roots, spread them out and plant.

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

When you get there we will need a report on your plants and hopefully photographs in order to determine what to do next.


Allright, my tests lately are showing Ammonia at 0, Nitrite around .25, and Nitrate at 20. what next? :smile:


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> Allright, my tests lately are showing Ammonia at 0, Nitrite around .25, and Nitrate at 20. what next? :smile:


Ph:

First thing that you have to do is to get your observable nitrites to Zero as in the long run the 0.25 concentration will be very toxic to your fish (please note that a 0.30 concentration of nitrites is lethal to some fish).

You can do this by decreasing your feeding or by adding another filtration unit which is preferable.

WRT your plants double dose with the Flourish and single dose with the Potassium today, similarly dose when you do you do your weekly 25% WC, and provide us a report and photographs one week subsequent to your weekly 25% WC.

Please check out this DIY CO2 but do not implement yet.

The "big boys" maintain like 25ppm to 30ppm CO2 but I have found that approximately 5ppm produced from a DIY CO2 reactor causes significant plant health and growth (please note that you have like 2ppm CO2 now in your tank water).

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

okay, I am keeping record of everything I do with my tank in a notepad on my cmp because my memory sucks. I sprung for what I hear is a nice filter, the eheim 2213, for this tank. supposedly it is good for a 10g and it should be in in a week  I really appreciate the hand holding here! :console:


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> I sprung for what I hear is a nice filter, the eheim 2213, for this tank. supposedly it is good for a 10g and it should be in in a week


Ph: Please remove the "carbon pad" from the filter media which you will receive with your *2213* and place it in a sealed baggy for future emergency use.

If you run into problems with configuring the 9mm tubing for your tank please post as the solution will probably be fairly easily implemented.




Phish said:


> I really appreciate the hand holding here! :console:


Ph: NP at all but please remember that "somewhere" down the road someone will probably need your time in post preparation based upon your experience in order to help them.

TR


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

COming in a little late in the game here, but I had that fizz factory thing...piece of junk, absolutely useless.


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

I read I should replace the carbon filter with seachem Purigen. does that sound right?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> I read I should replace the carbon filter with seachem Purigen. does that sound right?


Ph: This is up to you.

Many folks "swear by it".

I guess that I am "old school" and just flat do not employ chemical filtration in my typical filtration process.

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

so when I upgrade to my eheim 2213 does that mean I lose my cycle and have to start over pretty much or no? I am confused how that all works as I thought all the bacteria in my carbon filer was what made the cycle happen so...


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Ph: The Most Important Item!
*The Horns just won the Big Twelve Regular Season Baseball Championship by beating the Aggies 5 to 4!!!!*



Phish said:


> so when I upgrade to my eheim 2213 does that mean I lose my cycle and have to start over pretty much or no?


Ph: First Item is that you do not really "upgrade" now.

What what you do is to keep your current filter in service but also place the new 2213 in service also.

The biological filtration media in the new 2213 will be cycled in like 14 days, if you do not place the activated carbon or the Purigen in your 2213, when you can take your existing filter out of service if you want to.




Phish said:


> ... I am confused how that all works as I thought all the bacteria in my carbon filer was what made the cycle happen so...


Ph: Second Item is that we kinda need to "get back to the basics".

The EHFISUBSTRAT which came with your filter is biological filtration media and, once cycled, this media media will be populated with ammonia digestion bacteria and nitrites' digestion bacteria.

These bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrites and the nitrites to nitrates.

Activated carbon and Purigen are chemical filtration media and have "absolutely nothing to do with cycling" except that their presence in the filtration process prevents a typical cycle from occurring.

Activated carbon removes ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and other molecules as well as some elements from the tank water via adsorption.

Purigen removes ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and other molecules as well as some elements from the tank water via processes which are not fully documented.


BTW: 

After 14 to 28 days activated carbon typically loses its "activation" and commences functioning principally as biological filtration media.

I do not employ chemical filtration media in my normal filtration process.

I do keep "plenty" of new activated carbon media in the garage in "case of an emergency".

TR


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## Phish (Apr 21, 2009)

okay that actually all makes sense thank you! on a side not, I am suffering from MTS and got myself a 20 gallon tank today. I am wondering as far as the filter, any recommendation? another 2213 or maybe a step up?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Phish said:


> okay that actually all makes sense thank you!


Ph: I appreciate the comment as I have received "flak" previously with respect to my writing style.




Phish said:


> ... got myself a 20 gallon tank today. I am wondering as far as the filter, any recommendation? another 2213 or maybe a step up?


Ph: Keep in mind here that I have had limited experience with cannisters and although I had have more experience with HOBS they were not the "off the shelf" type for standard dimension tanks.

I questioned why you spent the $ on a cannister for a 10G but anticipated that you were just "smooth wore out" with your lack of adequate filtration (I have gotten into this mode wrt many items most of which were not relevant to fish keeping).

My general rule of thumb is (but everyone probably has their own)
HOB: for tank capacities up to 50G;
Cannister: for tank capacities between 50G and 100G; and
Wet/Dry: for tank capacities in excess of 100G.

I do believe that you will want two HOB's for your 20G but wrt specific manufacturers I am fairly clueless.

emc7 has had several excellent posts recently which address this issue but I unfortunately cannot find them now.

I recommend that you generate a thread asking this question and in your post please state your proposed substrate, stocking type and levels, lighting, plants, plant densities, etc.

TR

BTW: I do not know the space which you have available but in general, and for an example, a 50G tank is approximately 3 times easier to "control" than is a 25G tank.

A hypothetical of the above which I use is fertilization.

Let's assume than you are wanting to put 2ml of a fertilizer into a 25G tank but instead put in 4ml. You have increased the dosage by 2.0 but adding 6ml instead of 4ml to a 50G increases the dosage by only 1.3.

Kinda same wrt water temperature: think of the exterior surface area per volume of a 25G tank compared to a 50G tank.

This general concept applies to several other elements of fish keeping.


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