# Opinions Differ!



## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I would like to take a time out here for a second to say that the saltwater forum has been getting quite hostile lately, and it will not be tolerated. ANY thing close to a personal attack will be edited, whether from a MOD, Super MOD, Admin, or just a user. Fishforums has always prided itself on being a friendly forum, so if you don't have anything nice to say, DON'T SAY IT. Failure to chronically do so will result in disiplinary action. 

Thank you

Paul


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## Bear (Jun 8, 2006)

I guess I've missed something, but sounds good


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

I guess I missed something too - unless it all started with OldManoftheSea thread ... Sounds like a plan to do whatever it takes to end the hostilities.


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

just what "disiplinary action" was taken in the situation we talked about? since i never received a response?


and i would like to add, this forum is based towards a hobby, and in this hobby things die, and everyone involved should do their best to save as many critters as possible, but things still die. its just the way it is. and a hobby forum isnt the proper place to premote save the reefs, there are many things to do that would help the natural enviroment, and if your really all about saving the reefs, first thing you should do is stop comming on a hobby board, sell your tanks, and stop supporting anything about the hobby.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Why isn't this the place? This is exactly where such talk should begin. How else would like minded people exchange ideas?


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

All I have to say- calm down on the nano talk and those who've kept saltwater for a few months shouldn't freak out in threads.


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

Damon said:


> Why isn't this the place? This is exactly where such talk should begin. How else would like minded people exchange ideas?


i find it highly hypocritical to be on a hobby board and preaching about our natural ecosystems, if anyone really cared that much, like i already said, they need to sell their tank, stop supporting this buisness all together, become more proactive against collections of wild specimens, they are many serious dangers to our reef habitats, i agree, but keeping such a system in my house kinda stops me from having a good say so in any argument against it.

its like a person holding poker tournaments in his house, complaining that vegas it holding to many poker tournaments. its a huge conflict of interests.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

*sigh*
_shakes head, wondering how long it'll take leveldrummer to get the real point, but rooting for him_


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

TheOldSalt said:


> *sigh*
> _shakes head, wondering how long it'll take leveldrummer to get the real point, but rooting for him_


i dont really need you "rooting for me" and i really dont appreciate the condescending tone of your post.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Those of you who just tuned in may like to know that we hashed this out in chat and the crisis has been averted. Move along..nothing to see here...these aren't the droids you're looking for...


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## harif87 (Jun 5, 2006)

TheOldSalt said:


> these aren't the droids you're looking for...


These arent the droids were looking for..... Move along, move along...

I have to agree with Damon on the point that it is an open forum to discuss ideas. However it cant come to the point where one member is being singled out or attacked in any way, thats just uncalled for. Which means that if someone disagrees with anothers post, the poster shouldnt lash out on the guy. That should go for both parties.

Also leveldrummer, i understand where your comming from. Its kind of like saying that wearing leather jackets is wrong but you still wear leather belts...
But i think that this hobby must be coupled with awareness of what the reality of our oceans are. Otherwise we wouldnt care about checking on ammonia levels because "theres always more fish in the sea". But responsible reefers are aware of how to take while still giving back as well preserve. And the reason why we (well me at least) talk about saving the reefs is so the reefers listening will become responsible...... its what Bob Fenner calls conscientious. If we're responsible we can very well save the reefs.

"Humans only love what they know; and people do not destroy what they love." -Fenner


EDIT:


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2007)

*Turns to Stormtrooper*

Those aren't the droids we're looking for.


Edit: Psht. had to go and beat me, huh Morris? Poo.


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

harif, i agree, with pretty much everything you said, but my problems are that this forums has recently taken a turn away from conscientious reef keepers, to "my way or nothing" know it alls preaching the exact way to do anything, my posts come off one sided, because i feel im the only one defending the other side. simply trying to prove a point.

we all know with our hobby there are many ways to reach a single goal, for instance... if you wanna keep an acro, there are many lighting choices, skimmer or no skimmer. barebottom? deep sand bed? and all these things intermingle to come to a conclusion, its not anyones place to say "this" is how its done, all you can say is this is what worked for me... ive read about this method, blah blah blah, and let the person asking the question come to their own conclusion. and to everyone making the starwars comments... oldsalt obviously didnt realize i posted that last comment AFTER we had our chat, and im still angry because it was "his" way. i really had no say so. no matter what i said, i was wrong. thats just the way it is, he's right. so even though this is a public forum, its his personal views that are the right way to do it.


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## Reefneck (Oct 15, 2005)

Wow, Sitting back wondering what happened to all my buds and a time when we all get along. I really like this place for what it used to be. If it ain't broke, Don't fix it. Previously if someone got out of line it was handled by PMs with that person and any bad posts removed. It worked great.

As far as this argument goes......I'll be over here sitting on the bench. I don't wanna play.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Oh, for crying out loud...

Yes, there are multiple ways to do most things. There is usually one way which is best, too.

However, that is not the issue here. The issue is that you are getting bent WAY too far out of shape over something pretty lame.

I guess now I have to clarify some things for the peanut gallery. So be it, Jedi.

Leveldrummer isn't complaining about any particular way that I am saying a reeftank should be done on a nut & bolt basis, despite how it sounds. Oh, no, he is complaining that I am against the _promotion_ of NANO-reefing _in such a way_ as to give the impression that it is something super-easy and cheap that every inexperienced Tom, ****************, and Harry should try just for kicks. Strangely, this is something he doesn't seem to quite grasp himself, seemingly thinking instead that I am against would-be nanoreefers themselves, which explains his anger. I just don't know how much more plainly I can say it, really; people wanting to start nanoreefs are certainly deserving of all the assistance we can offer, BUT there is no way I'm going to actively inspire hordes of rank beginners to try it when I know that most of them will go off half-c ocked and fail, and I won't stand idly by and let anyone else do it, either. Why this is such an issue to him I cannot say, but there it is. He thinks I am against "conscientious reefkeepers" while at the same time griping that I am trying to actually *act* conscientiously. I just don't get it. He says he's just trying to make a point, but I can't see his point through the hostility. I think I almost do, but it's like his point is about something else we aren't even arguing over as far as I know. Or are we? Is that the problem?

I remember when level was first getting started with his first reeftank. He went to so much effort to study, study, study his little heart out in order to make his project a big success, and it paid off quite nicely. We weren't all there telling him to just slap something together and go for it because it's easy. We were telling him quite the opposite, as I recall, and it made him do everything right the first time. A good system, I think. Don'tcha just love irony?

By the way, level is NOT one of the guys saying it's easy to set up and run a nano without a clue. He just gets overly excited when I get on the case of someone who does say such things.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Well this thread really backfired on me. I think there can be an agreement though. 

Nano's shouldn't be encouraged to newbies, BUT when we are in the situation, we should just encourage a larger tank rather than leave it at "the tank will be too small." 

Also, think of the whole conscientious debate this way. Our reefs are in danger, but this isn't entirely from our hobby... bleaching has been wide spread for unknown reasons these days, and as long as we don't promote cyanide collected specimens, we are actually _preserving_ the reef in our home, to one day (hopefully) be released back into the wild. Also the captive rearing of fish will help ease our demand for specimens from the sea (which also are in danger),


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## Bear (Jun 8, 2006)

Reefneck said:


> Wow, Sitting back wondering what happened to all my buds and a time when we all get along. I really like this place for what it used to be. If it ain't broke, Don't fix it. Previously if someone got out of line it was handled by PMs with that person and any bad posts removed. It worked great.
> 
> As far as this argument goes......I'll be over here sitting on the bench. I don't wanna play.


I'm with Keri on this one. Now I'm worried for this sites well being


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

> Now I'm worried for this sites well being


This site has been around 10+ years - in many forms, with many "staff" and many people contributing.

It's been thru squabbles larger and smaller than this, and it will do so again in the future - such is the nature of webforums in general.

How many of the moderators I knew 8+ years ago are still around ? 
5 years ago ?
2 years ago ?

Some would say that we've lost much valuable insight from absent friends.
Others would suggest that we've gained new friends and new insights.
Either way, fishforums is still going strong.
And it still will.


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

TheOldSalt said:


> I remember when level was first getting started with his first reeftank. He went to so much effort to study, study, study his little heart out in order to make his project a big success, and it paid off quite nicely. We weren't all there telling him to just slap something together and go for it because it's easy. We were telling him quite the opposite, as I recall, and it made him do everything right the first time. A good system, I think. Don'tcha just love irony?
> 
> By the way, level is NOT one of the guys saying it's easy to set up and run a nano without a clue. He just gets overly excited when I get on the case of someone who does say such things.


i remember that too, and thats the only thing keeping me here, because im am sooooo grateful for all the good advice i recieved, and the only reason im "angry" is because the whole point of all this is completely lost, its not just OLDSALT but many of the people in the salt section, it just seems that the goal of this section is lost in general, it isnt about newbs keeping nano's, its about the approach to the answers, salt made a great point, that a year or two ago, everyone here helped me learn and learn and learn, and it was very exciting, and they all encouraged me to go out online and seek information, and ive come a LONG way since then, but recently, that angle has been lost on FF. it doesnt seem to promote free exchange of info, it seems (to me anyway) to promote personal ideals. instead of giving people ideas on what to do, everyone just tells the newbs what to do, the whole nano issue came up because i made an attempt to defend some people that didnt know what they were doing and it seemed some of the more knowledgable on here were attacking, instead of informing. 
but it was a loosing battle in my case since i actually agree that its a bad idea for someone to start with a nano. but thats as far as my opinion can carry me. if someone wants too, i see it nessesary to try to help them to the best of my ability, EXPLAIN what needs to be done and how hard it is, and let a person make their own decision (hopefully the right one)

and then when i defend. i also seem to be attacked. (again, this is just how it seems from my end) i just really want to see this section grow, there are very few users that frequent this area, many come, and never come back. and i just feel that the way many people address questions has alot to do with it, i have no problems with theoldsalt, i guess i just singled him out, because i know he can take it, and to just make an example. but once i did, i dont view anything he said as a personal attack, but im not stupid, and i do know when im being talked down too. and whether he meant it that way or not... it sure is hard to understand intentions when your reading off of an emotionless screen. my whole point in all this is to try to get people to give more advice, and direction, instead of just scareing the hell out or new poeple by telling them they can never achieve it, we dont know any of these poeple, and we sure dont know what they are or are not capable of, so the only way to find out is to talk to them, explain what they need to do, or the many diffrent options to do something, and help them make the best decision.

the nano thing was brought up because that is the single most obvious example of the tone im talking about.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

I know this is an old thread and the last thing I want to do it stir up the hornets' nest again (so if it's looking that way, by all means delete my post!) but I wanted to give my small opinion.
I understand where leveldrummer is coming from, I totally do. I'm a freshwater girl by all means, but a few months ago I wanted to try my hand at saltwater. And I used a small tank, 8 gallons. Before you freak out: I DON'T have any fish, and I invested in the proper equipment I needed for my meager but colourful population of zoas, xenias, and mushrooms. IMO, my tank has been a success. I love looking at it, and nothing has died. Levels are great, and constant. My point isn't that everyone should try a "nano" because it won't always succeede and the temptation to get fish is very strong, BUT the fact is, when I decided to try this, I did not really come here for advice. It's unfortunate that the small amount of time I've spent browsing this saltwater forum has scared me away from it. 
I still don't think anyone should try it, but I'm happy I did. It helped me wrap my head around how saltwater works without spending a large fortune, and I made the effort to use only seeded LR, LS, and propagated zoas, xenias and mushrooms.

Ugh. I thought we closed this thread so this very thing wouldn't happen.-TOS


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