# Selective Breeding



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

recently i have been watching videos about the idea of selective breeding and it is mostly split between people who think its an okay idea and people that think its wrong.. i was wondering what your opinions were on the selective breeding of fish :fish:


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

why would it be wrong people have been doing it for as long as animal breeding has been around thats how we have domesticated animals and select dog breeds.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

a lot of people just say let nature be nature and let it take its own course...just because people do it doesnt mean its right.. i mean a lot of people steal and murder haha..im on the fence about the subject


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

FishBreeding said:


> a lot of people just say let nature be nature and let it take its own course...just because people do it doesnt mean its right.. i mean a lot of people steal and murder haha..im on the fence about the subject


lol murdering and stealing is on a whole nother level lol. selective breeding for domesticated animals is not bad. you can breed out bad genes and breed in new genes now releasing basically "new" species that we created into the wild poses a problem. also other problems would be inbreeding because it leeds to bad heretitary genes and we see that a lot in dogs where specific breeds have lots of health issues.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

is cross breeding different kinds of fish okay though? people believe its wrong for us to mess with the genes like that..and also what do you think about selective breeding for size like to make fish bigger..it is also seen by people as bad because there is no real purpose to the selective breeding


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

when u say crossbreeding different kinds of fish do u mean like mating a pink convict cichlid with a regular convict? if so then yeah i def think thats ok in order to get different color patterns and that would kinda be a real purpose to doing it. as for breeding for larger size i would think that it might be a little difficult just based on its hard to tell wether a not a fish is a runt or not and its hard to tell how big they are until they reach adult size which can take a while but u also have to take into concideration dominance and diet because a more domminant fish is gonna get more food and grow faster. and depending on what they were being fed they will also grow faster and larger.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

so if you take all the dominant fish out and put them together to breed and keep doing that process would tat be okay? and cross breeding yeah but mayb two completely different spieces that are similar in body type


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

FishBreeding said:


> so if you take all the dominant fish out and put them together to breed and keep doing that process would tat be okay? and cross breeding yeah but mayb two completely different spieces that are similar in body type


it would be okay if they dont kill eachother lol. and im not sure that two completely different species are capable of breeding. that more comes down to gene splicing and such.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

say they could spawn naturally do you think it would be okay to enforce breeding between the two fish?


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I'm against cross-breeding fish. Not because it is moral 'wrong', but because there are currently thousands of distinct species with unique characteristics. Many, many are endangered in the wild and could benefit from captive breeding programs. Things like blood-parrots are, IMO, a waste of space. Add to that the health issues many hybrids have and the difficulty keeping them from contaminating "pure" strains of fish (many hybrids look like one parent) and I say just say no to hybrids. Its not like the early days of the hobby when only a few fish were available. Now we can go collect wild fish until we find a species that meets our aquarium needs. I'm less opposed to hybrids for aquaculture (food fish), as long as they don't get loose in the wild, I don't care how many species go into your dinner tilapia. You can more easily argue ends vs. means when it could feed a starving child than having a new, "neat" pet. 

But its hard to tell someone in Asia not to crossbreed gouramis if its the best way he can feed his family. All you can do is not buy hybrids. And hybrids are, IMO, a lesser evil than tattooed fish.

If you don't prevent hybrids from occurring, you should feed them to something bigger, or as a last resort, sell them clearly labeled as hybrids and not represent them as a new "color variety" of a fish species which could lead to the lose of the true, undiluted gene pool. 

Line-breeding, or selective breeding for specific characteristics (like long fins, or brighter colors) doesn't bother me as long as it is done responsibly. That is, precautions (like multiple, separate lineages, not adding in other species, culling unhealthy fry) are taken to control the health issues cause by inbreeding. In a aquarium setting, its about impossible not to breed selectively. You don't have room for all the fish, so you pick a pair or two. So if you are selectively breeding, you might as well have a goal instead of breeding the first to mature, the pair that kills all the other fish, or the pair you can't catch to sell. You might as well go for color instead of aggressiveness or elusiveness. 

Line-bred fish are often spectacular, but like pure-bred dogs, are prone to specific health issues that are often not discovered until the strain is well established. Again like dogs, you shouldn't breed deformed fish. While a fish with a crooked tail or bent spine may live a relatively normal life, its possible the deformity will get worse in later generations. Better to keep it from the gene pool. Nature does this automatically as weaker and slower fish are the first eaten. But I if held the same opinion having to do with people, I'd be accused of Eugenics and being an evil Nazi. Still people who have their own genes tested often choose to adopt rather subject a child to a risk of a genetic disorder. 

I believe if you keep fish, you should try to prevent them from suffering, even if that means preventing them from existing.


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

emc7 said:


> I'm against cross-breeding fish. Not because it is moral 'wrong', but because there are currently thousands of distinct species with unique characteristics. Many, many are endangered in the wild and could benefit from captive breeding programs. Things like blood-parrots are, IMO, a waste of space. Add to that the health issues many hybrids have and the difficulty keeping them from contaminating "pure" strains of fish (many hybrids look like one parent) and I say just say no to hybrids. Its not like the early days of the hobby when only a few fish were available. Now we can go collect wild fish until we find a species that meets our aquarium needs. I'm less opposed to hybrids for aquaculture (food fish), as long as they don't get loose in the wild, I don't care how many species go into your dinner tilapia. You can more easily argue ends vs. means when it could feed a starving child than having a new, "neat" pet.
> 
> But its hard to tell someone in Asia not to crossbreed gouramis if its the best way he can feed his family. All you can do is not buy hybrids. And hybrids are, IMO, a lesser evil than tattooed fish.
> 
> ...


Well put what i couldn't find the words to say for the most part. I forgot to mention when talking about pure breeds having health issues was that it can mostly be avoided with multiple lineages being used. I forgot how big of a problem people claiming hybreds as new species was sorry. That is one thing i am against because of like u said it ruins pure bred species.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I do think there are limits. I have more of a problem with selective breeding when it causes problems for fish. Long fins are neat, but more prone to fin rot and other fin problems. I assume most people who buy a long-finned fish would be willing to give it extra care, like you do a long-haired cat. But hi-fin swordtails males can't breed unless you trim their gonapodium. You breed hi-finned females to normal finned sibling males and sell the hi-finned males. This is kind of pushing it. If you stopped deliberately breeding them, the hi-fin gene would soon die out. I'm also less than enthused about breeding that ends up with a really delicate or handicapped fish. Some albinos are fine, others are nearly blind and have to be raised apart to give them a chance of getting food. You have to wonder if that fish's life is going to be harder than it should be.


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

i think this is what bothers me a lot breeding goldfish to have even more messed up eyes like the celestials http://media.photobucket.com/image/celestial goldfish/limecrime/Weekly Glee/celestial_goldfish.jpg


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Yeah, people who have them love them, but I look at those and the double-tailed ones and think "that fish should have been culled". I like fish that look like fish, not space aliens (no offense to the little green men).


----------



## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

yeah breeding for colors its certainly better than breeding for deformities.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

so people agree selective breeding is okay but if you are not hurting the fish? like breeding for size or color would that be okay? since some people think you shouldnt do it because there is no real point to breeding them


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Not everyone will agree. Some people don't think fish should be in tanks at all.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

yeah there is always going to be opinionated people but i want to find out the majority especially amoung the pet fish community & fishing community ..so would like more then 2 people in this topic but oh well haha thanks for sharing


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I think its unavoidable that you select for something. 

Have you noticed how small platies in the stores are lately? They aren't deliberately breeding for "dwarf platies", but if you put them in a pond and sell the largest fish every time you get an order, after several generations you will have smaller fish. Because the smallest breeders stay in the pond and make more babies and the big fish get sold. Hobbyist do the opposite, we keep the big "showfish" and sell the runts. Both "show quality" betta and livebearers are often much bigger than what you see in stores. Tank strains routinely outgrow the "max size" of wild fish.

If you are planning on breeding fish for more that 1 or 2 generations, get a book from the library and read about how to control inbreeding. There are well-established strategies like keeping multiple lineages. I'm sure you'll do what you can to insure healthy fry. Research your fish, too. Many of the common traits of common fish are known. For instance, The angelfish society, has info that will tell you what your fry will be and in what ratio, provided you know what the parents are. Try not to start with a hybrid, culling a lot of deformed fry is not a good way to enjoy the hobby. 


It doesn't really matter what we think, you'll do what you want to.


----------



## FishBreeding (Aug 13, 2010)

im going to mail you about it so we dont have to talk here


----------

