# A few questions regarding my tank and Freshwater Fish



## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

This is my first post and hopefully you guys will understand everything I say!

I just bought a* 38 Gallon *tank starter kit. It came with a net, huge filter, submersible heater... from big als in my city.

I cycled it for 24 hours and put all the stuff I needed too. Now I have 

3 Blackskirt Tetras 
2 Zebra Danio
3 Pearl Danio
3 Head and Tail tetra

Every fish seems to be doing fine, except one of the Zebra Danios mouths looks like its wide open and ripped off? Could he have gotten into a mini fight with another fish?

Anyhow he still swims fine, and acts fine...maybe it just needs to heal? I am all new at this so I'm not too sure.
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I have not tested anything yet, the guy at the store said to just wait a month to start testing. I don't see any clouding yet and its been 5 days. (could just be the big tank)

I am wondering how many fish can I fit in a 38 gallon tank. I see some of you have quite a bit of fish in a smaller tank then what is suggested. Someone told me about 20 fish, but I see that is a much smaller size?

Also after the 1 month, how many times do I need to do a water change, how do I do it, and how much?

After 1 month can I add 3 more fish? I was thinking German Blue Ram or Cardinal Tetra, is this okay?

I know I have a few questions, but I am new at this, and I want to do the right thing.

Thank you.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2007)

here is the issue, you have not cycled your aquarium unless you have added a cycled filter, filter media from an established tank, gravel from and established tank, bio spira, or waited 4-6 weeks with doing a fish cycle, or fishless. so right now all your fish are in danger of receiving an ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike. both of which can cause damage...and usually death. i suggest that you get a test kit, and watch your ammonia and nitrite levels, and begin doing waterchanges to keep those numbers low. you are now coming into the time period where ammonia will start showing up. you need to not feed much..if anything at all for a while. if you insist on feeding, make it every other day, or every 3rd day, a VERY small amount, until your tank is cycled.
No new fish until this process is finished.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

I have a Marineland Emperor Bio-Wheel 400 Power Filter, but only with one wheel, not two. I put a blue filter in it, that came with it. I added stuff from 3 bottles that it also came with, then let it sit for 24 hours. After that I put the fish in.

I was told not to do a water change at all until a month has passed?
They will be fine without getting fed once everyday like I do?


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## Willow (Mar 20, 2005)

The first thing you need to know is that most pet store employees are just trying to sell you stuff. They don't necessarily care about what's good for the fish, and do not necessarily know much about fishkeeping. Those that are knowledgable frequently assume that you won't be willing to take proper care of your fish, so they just tell what they think you want to hear---"yeah, do this, it's cheap and easy and you won't have to wait before getting fish". It's fair to say that most people who wander into a pet store and buy an aquarium would not be interested anymore if they were told it would be at least a month before they could add fish to their tank.

Fish are cold-blooded, so they can go awhile without food. Feeding them once every other day would be OK, but be careful about food waste. It will pollute your tank.

Letting a tank sit empty for a while is a good idea, but it is not "cycling". You need to understand the nitrogen cycle in order for your fishkeeping to succeed, here's a link: http://www.fishforums.com/forum/general-freshwater/7125-nitrogen-cycle-basics.html

It is possible to cycle your tank with the fish in it, but it's risky. You'll need a test kit so you'll know when to do a water change. Not doing a water change for a month would be fine if you were doing a fishless cycle, but if you try it now, your fish would probably die from elevated ammonia and nitrite levels. 

If you want to cycle your tank really quickly, you can get Bio-Spira from a pet store. It is expensive---about $20.00-$30.00---but it will cycle your tank instantly and you won't have to worry about it anymore. A good way to speed up the cycle is to get some gravel or filter media from a healthy established tank, and add that to your tank. If you have a friend with a healthy tank, it would be better to get some gravel or filter media from them instead of from the pet store. Pet store tanks are not usually as healthy as you might prefer, and you don't want to introduce diseases to your fish. Or you can leave the tank as it is, and it will cycle eventually, but it will take longer because of the water changes you'll need to do to keep the fish alive.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

Okay, this is really getting confusing. I phoned Big Als, and the lady there said that I do not need to add anything, or do any water changes at all. She said leave it be for the month and then everything should be good. I mentioned what you had said and she said don't worry about it.

It seems there are so many opinions concering getting new fish.

I will start phoning around to see if I can get the bio-spira...

Anybody know what happened to the fish I mentioned?


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## livebearer_love (Nov 26, 2007)

It is hard to tell without a picture but it could be a birth defect. Was it like that when you bought it?
How many fish you can fit in the tank depends on the type of fish and the other fish you have in the tank with it.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

No, it was not like that. I thought it might be a disease, but looks more like he got into a fight or something?

On another note, I can not get Bio-Spira in Canada at all! That's rediculous!


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## coheedrules (Oct 29, 2007)

Like yourself, I started in this hobby about 6 months ago and made all the mistakes you can make. The people here really know what they are talking about. I was told I just needed to let the tank sit for 24 hours and add fish. I've bought around 30 fish since I started and I have 7 fish in my tank now - NONE of which were the originals. It seems you have a decent mix of fish to start but now you need to start the water changes to keep the fish you have alive. As the tank goes through it's cycling period the water changes keep the ammonia and nitrite down to survivable levels. You will still probably lose some fish but maybe not all of them. I would do 25% water changes every two days or at least twice a week until you are testing your water and are getting NO ammonia and NO Nitrite. Then most folks do 25% weekly water changes. NOT monthly. The Nitrates and other gunk just build up too much. If you wait an entire month to do a water change (like I did!) you may not have any fish left. The cycling process is supposed to take about 4-6 weeks. Somebody who knows more here should chime in and correct me if I'm wrong on anything. I wish more than anything I could start this hobby over and research everything that I was doing before I did it. I've gotten good advice at the fish stores, but I've gotten too much bad advice to completely listen all the time to them.


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## Willow (Mar 20, 2005)

Last time I was at the local fish store (BTW, I bought 4 cory catfish and they didn't even ask me what size tank I have :/ ), I heard the guy telling the other people---newbies to fishkeeping---that you could line up 50 fishkeepers and have all of them give you a different opinion on fishkeeping. Which is true. Probably the most accurate thing I've ever heard a pet store employee say. But there are some very experienced fishkeepers here, and I've learned a lot since joining. Ammonia and nitrite spikes will kill fish. Pet stores expect you to have a lot of losses (means $$$ for them), so that fact may not concern them too much. But if you don't want to lose any fish, you need to do water changes.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

Willow said:


> Ammonia and nitrite spikes will kill fish. .


Okay I just did a nitrite test and it looks like it's just barely over 0.1, I have not done the ammonia test yet, which I will in a few minutes. So nothing has happened yet, and thats great news for all the fishies I have in the tank! Is this right for 5 days, or should it have spiked?


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2007)

You will have more ammonia than nitrIte at this point, so do that test as soon as you can and be ready to do a water change. That is alot of fish to add at once (even though they are small). Read the link that was posted in an above post about cycling, so you'll know whats going on in your tank and why you need to test and change out water.

I WOULD NOT listen to the petstore anymore. They are not giving you the right info and your fish will die if you don't test or do water changes for a month. Then what happens is you'll be back at the store for more fish.  More money for the store....see where I'm going?  We are not here to take your money. We want to help you keep your fish alive.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

Okay, I did the ammonia test. It came out between 0.3 and 0.6 at the MOST! So everything looks to be fine. Why is everything so good in my tank with this many fish?

Do I need to do anything else now?


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## Feathers (Dec 2, 2007)

I would, personally, aim at getting the ammonia test to read at _zero_. Even small amounts of Ammonia can stress your fish or get them sick... o___o;


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

You are ok so far because your tank is 38 gallons, if it were a ten gallon, you would have fish dying with ammonia of 2. Concentration of ammonia is what kills which is one of the reason larger tanks are easier. As long as you are feeding, the ammonia will climb until something takes it out of the water. Ammonia should go down as it is converted to nitrite. If this happens before it gets close to toxic levels, you are in good shape. If not, change enough water to keep the water safe for fish. When the ammonia goes down, start watching the nitrite levels.

What were the bottles of stuff? Something you added could also be helping.

Feathers, ordinarily I'd agree with you, but during cycling you need some ammonia to feed the bacteria you need to get rid of the ammonia. If you take it all out, the tank will never cycle. You want it more than 0, but less than toxic. You could use an ammonia "detoxifier" like Prime that leaves it in the water in a form less harmful to fish, but don't use ammonia removing pellets or ion exchange resin.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> What were the bottles of stuff? Something you added could also be helping.


I added 

Big als

1 full 30ml of water conditioner
6 teaspoons of Bio-Clean
6 teaspoons of Bio-Support

Is all this good?
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emc7 said:


> but don't use ammonia removing pellets or ion exchange resin.


When is this safe to use, or if ever?


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

Another quick update: All the readings are the same, water is a touch cloudy, that's about it.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> When is this safe to use, or if ever?


 The thing with ammonia removers is that they remove ammonia and starve the biology. So the best place to use them is where you aren't cycled and not intending to. Show tanks, quarantine tanks, and during shipping. The nitrate removers take out the end product so they are better. Nitrate removing ion exchange resin can help with an algae problem or if you can't change water. However, they can only take a certain amount of nitrate before being "recharged". So they are not a long term solution and may release what they've captured if you leave them in the tank too long.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

According to BigAls web site, bio-support has live cultures of good bacteria. The suggested usage is similar to Seachem's stability or APs StressZyme. The product would definitely "jump-start" your tank's cycle, so that is most likely why your ammonia peak was so small. Cycling with Stability can be done in a week or two. You test should show some nitrate so you know the bacteria is established. However Bio-clean has enzymes that "digest waste" so that may prevent it from showing up. Once you test negative for ammonia and nitrite, you can add a few more fish, but do add them slowly. Maybe 3 tetra/week.


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## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

emc7 said:


> According to BigAls web site, bio-support has live cultures of good bacteria. The suggested usage is similar to Seachem's stability or APs StressZyme. The product would definitely "jump-start" your tank's cycle, so that is most likely why your ammonia peak was so small. Cycling with Stability can be done in a week or two. You test should show some nitrate so you know the bacteria is established. However Bio-clean has enzymes that "digest waste" so that may prevent it from showing up. Once you test negative for ammonia and nitrite, you can add a few more fish, but do add them slowly. Maybe 3 tetra/week.



So I might be safe, I most likely won't lose any fish during the cycle?

Also I noticed that when I added the head and tail tetra, the blackskirt tetra came up to them like a cat would and checked them out. They never did that to the danios?

They don't even look related, so what makes them related to the head and tail?
It was funny to watch because they were so calm and peaceful and put their mouth close to the head and tail, and swam around them and then swam away.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I think you are most likely going to have a safe and easy cycle. Do you have any more of the Bio-support? With these things its a good idea to add a second dose after a week or 10 days.


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