# Please Help! Neon Green Water!?



## dixiechicken82 (Feb 5, 2006)

Please help! No one seems to know what this is!

We just bought power compact lights with the white lights & blue light. Not sure of par value or anything. Soon after setting up the lights (at Christmas), there was a "bloom" of algae (or so I'm guessing) all over the walls of the tank. After cleaning it off the walls, it came right back within hours. This lasted for days. The LFS said this was normal with the addition of brighter lights and said to leave it alone. After about a week it stopped. Weeks later we woke up to find the water was a light neon green, but you could still see pretty well. After a day it was harder to see. It lasted several days and got murkier each day, and then finally went away. 2-3 weeks later, It has happened again. The live rock is barely visible now, shadowy looking. The only time I can see the animals is when they are right next to the glass. I put some water in a test tube to check the water quality, and the color was a faint green in the tube. Na:20 Ni:0 Am:0 pH:8.2. The only thing we've done different besides setting up the new lights, is put PurpleUp in the water. This neon green water doesn't seem to be algae to me. I can't see any textured stuff in the water. It's just green! As if I put bright green food coloring in it! =0) What is going on!?! 

Also, 
I noticed something on the glass a week & a half ago. There were these tiny, clear, oval sacs or pouches with 20 or more white dots in them. Each sac was separate from the rest but seemed to form a small trail. A week later the sacs were empty. So what happened to the white things in the sac? Were they eggs? I just got 4 new big snails, and I have about 10 nassarius snails. I assumed they were snail eggs since they were high up on the glass, but I thought the "eggs" would mature into snails before hatching. I don't know anything about snail hatchlings so I could be way off in my assumptions. Any ideas?


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## MaryPa (Jan 25, 2006)

Put a HOB filter on the tank with polyfiber in it. That`ll clear the water,then you can remove the filter. A Sailfin Blenny will keep the LR clean. The white things on the glass just snails most likely hitchhikers from the LR. Scrape them off.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Dumb question time:

Are you leaving the lights on all the time?

Do you have any 'ick' or fungus medicine in the house, and if so, how many people could have access to it? Some of that stuff turns the water very neon day-glo green indeed. 

I haven't heard of Purple-up causing any problems like this, but maybe something is wrong which is making it cause it. Do you have a skimmer?


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## dixiechicken82 (Feb 5, 2006)

Thanks for the replies!

No the lights are on for 12hrs, off for 12hrs. We haven't had any problems with ich or anything like that, so we haven't bought any medicines to treat the water. No skimmer either. 


Whats an HOB filter??


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

hob= hang on the back, what kind of filter do you have with no skimmer?


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## MaryPa (Jan 25, 2006)

Without a skimmer you`ll have to do weekly water changes. Honestly you really should have one especially with a FOWLER ( Fish only with live rock ) tank. With a FO ( fish only ) you can get away without a skimmer.


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## MaryPa (Jan 25, 2006)

Personally  i traded my SW tank for an empty 30 gal for FW fish. I found SW a pain in the a**.


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## dixiechicken82 (Feb 5, 2006)

It's a Penguin (not sure which model) power wheel filter and It hangs on the back. Maybe we have a skimmer on the filter?? I just assumed we didn't have one because we haven't bought one seperately! We were told that our next purchase should be a SEIO super flow pump. Would this help with the green water?? Is this what they call micro algae? Is that why I can't see it?


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## leveldrummer (May 27, 2005)

the penguin definatly doesnt have a skimmer in it, i believe the little wheels on some of those filters can cause a problem in saltwater tanks, not sure if its green water, but you might want to get rid of it anyway, before something happens. (just the wheel, not the whole filter)


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

the biowheels create a lot of nitrates, nitrates are nutrients that promote the growth of microalgaes. I'd get a good skimmer for your tank such as the aqua c remora skimmers. I'd also start using RO water, or distilled water instead of tap if you aren't already.


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## CMonroe (Dec 20, 2005)

Fishfirst said:
 

> the biowheels create a lot of nitrates, nitrates are nutrients that promote the growth of microalgaes. I'd get a good skimmer for your tank such as the aqua c remora skimmers. I'd also start using RO water, or distilled water instead of tap if you aren't already.


I hate to even question someone with 1800+ posts, but it sounds like you are saying a Bio-Wheel is causing Nitrates, and should be removed? I thought nitrates were the natural byproduct of the nitrifying (sp) bacteria in the biological filter process: Fish Waste > Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate > plants (hence the algae blooms). Shouldn't ANY biological filter cause nitrates? Ideally, a mechanical filter and Skimmer should remove as much fish waste as possible, thus removing the source material that has to be converted from waste into Nitrate, but still aren't Nitrates a sign of a working biological filter? If you remove the bio-wheel, where the nitrification is taking place, aren't you making your filter less efficient?

Both Local Fish Stores I frequent have Pinguin filters w/ biowheels on ALL their marine tanks. Only the largest tanks have biowheels, wet/drys, refugiums, and skimmers.

Maybe they are doing a lot of water changes to remove the nitrates, but this is the first time I've seen a filter get blamed for doing it's job. Can somebody explain that please, I feel like I missed something.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

heheh, you are exactly right about the biological filter thing and about the biowheel doing its job. Thats what it was MADE to do... unfortunately, saltwater requires LOW nitrates and while a biowheel is perfectly fine for freshwater, it often is a hassle in saltwater systems. You see, a biowheel does the same job your liverock does in a marine system, only liverock can produce macroalgae and beneficial algaes instead of your nussance algaes and your biowheel can't. Also, skimmers are supposed to take out a majority of the nitrate producing particles that become mixed in our water before they have time to rott, and by doing this they effectively lower your nitrate levels. This left over nitrate that the skimmer missed can be taken out by your water changes OR by the beneficial algae instead of the nasty green water you get. Also there is something called the denitrification process that occurs in saltwater, which can lower nitrates as well, it produces N2 (gas) through anerobic bacteria which can be cultured in a plenium. 

As far as your LFS is conserned, using penguins as their main filters work as long as they keep up with frequent water changes. And their larger systems with the wetdry filter is probably a complete nitrate factory (it works even better at producing nitrates than your penguin) and is fairly obsolete for reef or fowlr tanks.

oh, and also, nitrate isn't the only nutrient that causes those nasty algaes... Phosphates can too (usually associated with fish waste and fish foods). A handy thing to have is a phosban reactor too, however I believe that a high quality skimmer could help them out enough to get things back on track.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm learning too. Let me paraphrase what you just said and you tell me if it's correct. The nitrogen cycle still converts ammonia/ nitrites to nitrate and that's a good thing. Your filter ( bio-wheel, etc. ) can do it or your live rock can do it??? You would prefer that the live rock did it so it could produce microalgae and other good stuff. Right??? And I assume the bio-wheel is more efficient than the live rock. That's why you want to remove the bio-wheel. Right?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

well yes and no, a skimmer just takes out things that decay and the liverock eats up the rest of the nitrate.


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## CMonroe (Dec 20, 2005)

Fishfirst said:


> well yes and no, a skimmer just takes out things that decay and the liverock eats up the rest of the nitrate.


Ahh... I like what you said, and I don't think I've ever seen it written that way before. Just to make sure I have it clear... by having a highly efficient mechanical/biological filter in the pinguin w/ biowheel (or in my case a HOB & canister), I'm actually depriving my liverock of *nitrites* it needs for beneficial algae growth? The HOB filter or canister filter is converting the nitrites to nitrates *before *the liverock gets enough for it's own uses? Could this explain why I don't have good coraline algae growth and my nitrates have been high in spite of water changes? I also had a bad epidimic of hair algae. Could the high nitrates and phosphates have fed that bloom? 

I've taken a few steps since the end of last year to try to boost coraline algae growth, and to kill the hair algae. 

I replaced my normal fluorscent lights with compact fluorescent of higher watts.

I added a HOB skimmer from a reputible manufacturer (forgot name, but good reveiws)

I quit using tap water, and started using Ozarka bottled and/or purified water from the grocery store.

I believe it will take a while to get all the phosphates out of the system, but the hair algae growth has stopped; now I just have to wait for the cleanup crew to finish it off. The lawnmower blenny isn't interested in the hair algae. 
My skimmer isn't producing much skim. Only a few tablespoons full in two months. The only time there is any froth is right after I feed. *Is it possible that there just isn't anything to skim*, or do you think there is something wrong with my skimmer? I've tripple checked my skimmer setup, and it is EXACTLY like the ones at the LFS where I bought it. Their's produces froth, mine doesn't produce much. I recently took the HOB filter off the maintank, so maybe now the skimmer will start finding something to skim.

Thoughts and opinions would be welcome.

CMonroe


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Yes. Liverock produces organisma that feed off of nitrates keeping them low in a saltwater tank. A biowheel produces bacteria that turn organics into nitrates which are a no-no in excess in saltwater but normal for freshwater. Skimmers remove organice so that they don't add to the nitrates your biowheel is converting them into. You want enough nitrates to feed the liverocks organisms but excess is fatal in saltwater. Skimmers keep them low enough.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Hair algae comes and goes... my guess is once you get your trates and phosphates under control it will receed and if you have enough calcium in the water you'll start to see coraline algae.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Fishfirst/ Simpte. I'm still puzzled. I'm a little slow, but I'll catch on eventually..... I understand that nitrates are a no-no, but nitrites are worse, right? Seems like we would ALWAYS want to convert nitrites into nitrate. So if we eliminate the bio-wheels, we would have nitrite????? What am I missing?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

the liverock can convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrates... however the skimmer beats it to the punch most of the time and takes the particles out before they even have a chance of creating ammonia. Basically it lowers the whole bioload of the tank by extracting most of the fish waste, left over food, before it has time to decay. Of coarse you can't stop a live fish from breathing so you can't get rid of ammonia completely (fish excrete ammonia from their gills too) so the nitrogen cycle continues and is used by the liverock (remember there is a lot of beneficial bacteria on the liverock) by converting it from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to beneficial algae. Biowheels and other filters trap detritus and lets it rot in the water column, thus, creating more nitrates than the beneficial algae can handle, which in turn, gives you blooms of bad algae.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Fishfirst said:


> filters trap detritus and lets it rot


So, it would be better if the detritus was allowed to continue floating around in the aquarium???? Why not just keep the filter clean?


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## CMonroe (Dec 20, 2005)

I think that's the concept I'm having trouble with too...where does the mechanical filter fit into all this. If the P-Skimmer is doing a micro-scrub of the disolved organic materials (DOM), and the microbes on the liverock are doing the chemical breakdown from Ammonia to Nitrate, then why do we need a canister or HOB macro-filter? Especially if the macro-filter is keeping the DOM in the watercolumn and allowing it to convert into excess nitrate. What I think I'm seeing here is that there shouldn't be a macro filter, but if so, where does the 'poop' go? Do we just leave undisolved organic material in the system?

CMonroe


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

I think you are having problems with the concept of a protein skimmer. Protein skimmers don't keep particles in the water, they are made so that microbubbles catch the particles on their "membrane" these bubbles float to the top of the skimmer where it bottle necks and the foam flows over the top of the skimmer into the collection cup. The particles on the foam is deposited here, where they can decay OUTSIDE of the system. Technically speaking you can keep replacing/cleaning cartridges every two or three days and be fine with a HOB filter, but that gets very expensive in the long run, and can get time consuming. So with the skimmer, most particles don't rot in the tank and aren't free floating around, they can be found in the collection cup. 

CMonroe, I'm not sure what you mean by your comments, please explain further... also the poop as I said before goes into the collection cup... at least it does with powerheads picking it up to go into the skimmer... one thing about a skimmer, the tank itself needs a high turnover rate to work properly. And the whole point of the skimmer is to NOT have a HOB or canister filter.


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## CMonroe (Dec 20, 2005)

Fishfirst said:


> And the whole point of the skimmer is to NOT have a HOB or canister filter.


Ah ha! That's the part of this process that I couldn't wrap my head around! I had no idea that the skimmer would remove the large particles of detrius from the water. I always (eroneously) believed that you needed multiple stages of filtration in the system: macro (HOB or canister), micro (skimmer) and biological (livesand, and/or rock)

CMonroe


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## dixiechicken82 (Feb 5, 2006)

wow! Ya'll have given me soooo much info! That's awesome! Thanks ya'll! For right now we are going to take the wheel off of the penguin filter, do a water change, and buy a HOB skimmer (look I learned something!). Thanks a bunch for all the help


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

no problem dixie, hope you stick around and I'm sure your green water will turn clear in a while  good luck!


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## CMonroe (Dec 20, 2005)

Update: I removed the HOB and canister filter on my main tank, and now my Skimmer is producing three times more sludge than it used to. I think that proves that the skimmer was working fine along, there just wasn't anything in the water for it to skim. I installed a powerhead w/sponge filter to help circulate the water, and I'm probably going to add another powerhead before long, to make up for the flow I'm now missing since I removed the HOB & Canister filter. Thank for the advice folks. 

I'm going to research a little about skimmers on freshwater tanks now. I would like to have a discus tank again, and now that I know more about how the Skimmer works to remove the detrius from the tank before it rots, I'm thinking it would be a boon to all discus keepers if it will work. Water quality is as important, maybe more important, when raising discus, than with marine aquariums.


CMonroe...


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

actually freshwater skimmers are hard to get to work because they have a hard time creating the microbubbles necessary, it works with really LARGE skimmers though.


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## CMonroe (Dec 20, 2005)

I did some internet searching and 9 out of 10 references said at best it would NOT hurt anything, but only one said it 'might' benefit things. I'm not going to try it. 

It looks like there hasn't been a lot of changes in filter theory for discus tanks since I last raised them. UGF is still out, Canister is good (unless there is a power outage), extra airation is highly recommended, and HOB w/ foam filters are still best. 

CMonroe...


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