# Sudden deaths?



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Here's the tank info
Size: 10 gallons
Plants: various crypts, java fern, moss, Brazillian pennyworth. Basically all low-light plants
Substrate: Eco Complete
Inhabitants: 2 bamboo shrimp, 6 neon tetra, 1 dwarf gourami, 8 ghost shrimp, 6 or so small ramshorn snails, 4 physa snails and a bunch of mts
Dosing: Flora Pride 1 tsp per week with every pwc, 5ml Flourish Excel at PWC and then 1 ml every other day
Lighting: dinky 8w regular underdesk fluorescent lamp I picked up at Menards

My plants have been fine for a while. I switched from pool filter sand substrate to Eco Complete and started dosing and they have enjoyed it immensely. Been doing this for about a month and a half. A month ago I moved the aquarium to another room and since a week and a half ago I have been watching all my plants lose their leaves one by one and hardly any new growth. This particular room does get less natural light.

What I have done in the meantime, today, went out and purchased an All-Glass lightstrip with an included 15 watt fluorescent lamp. Yes, this one is for real, not some generic, non-aquarium-use, fluorescent bulb.

What do you guys think? Why are my plants dying off so quick and abruptly? Is it because of inadequate lighting? All the other inhabitants are absolutely fine. My weekly partial water changes are kinda large, I do around a 40% pwc. I can supply pictures if you think they will help but basically, leaves:
-turn yellow and die
-some have turned yellow on the edges and the snails ate the dead matter
-some have literally see-through green leaves
-the Brazillian pennyworth which is floating has dwarfed growth and very pale leaves


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

Were they getting a fair amount of natural light before? 8 watts is very low light over a 10g IMO, so maybe they were benefitting from the natural light before.

I think the 15w will be much better and you should see them perk back up.

The paleness is usually a sign of inadequate light.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

That's what I'm suspecting, that I got away with 8 watts of wrong spectrum light because the *other* room was very well lit by natural light. This new one is a lot darker and a lot less direct sunlight even in the afternoon.
There is no such thing as too many ferts, right? What I mean by that, the snails/shrimp would kick the bucket LONG before there'd be any adverse effects on the plants. Today I'm going to do a PWC, dose according to instructions with Flourish Excel and I'm also replacing FloraPride with Flourish, which has 9 gazillion times more nutrients.

"Low light plants" means they do ok with low light, right, it doesn't mean that they *require* subdued light?

I've always wondered this too. What effect does Seachem Prime and other such conditioners on fertilizers? They remove chlorine, detoxify ammonia, nitrite, etc but they also remove, I quote "iron and other metals in typical concentrations found in drinking water". Granted I have well water so I could potentially stop using Prime, but I feel better using it and will continue to do so.

When I was at the pet store I was also recommended either a 50/50 or 10k bulb. Is the stock bulb adequate for now, or should I consider one of those 2 with the plants that I have?


----------



## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

As far as the plants go, no I don't think there is such thing as too many ferts. You would see alot of algae if you were dosing too much and the snails and shrimp would be affected, but the plants wouldn't mind IMO unless the algae was killing them.

Correct, low light plants means they will grow/thrive in low light and not that they need low light. Most of them will still do well in high light too.

I'm not sure that prime has an effect on ferts. I didn't know that it removed iron....but alot of planted tank people use it, so it must not remove alot of it. 

Not sure why the pet store would recommend a 50/50 bulb for a planted tank. Don't take that advice. Plants do not use the actinic portion of the bulb, so that part would be useless and leave you with even less usable light. A 10K bulb would work though. Basically anything between 5000K (kelvin) and 10000K is good to use.....the specific K rating you choose is mainly for aesthetics. Do you know the Kelvin rating of the bulb you have now?


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Doesn't say anywhere on the box or instructions, but I'll do some further checking. Thanks for all the info!


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> too many ferts


There can always be too much of a good thing, if you have too much ferts for your light or they are out of balance you could get a huge algae bloom. Ramp them up slowly and watch the effects.


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

fishbone:

Ditto JOM's remarks with additional comments.



fishbone said:


> That's what I'm suspecting, that I got away with 8 watts of wrong spectrum light because the *other* room was very well lit by natural light. This new one is a lot darker and a lot less direct sunlight even in the afternoon.


Room lighting intensity and a night light (ie. a light which you leave turned on at night in order "that you will not stumble over furniture, etc.") will affect plant growth.




fishbone said:


> There is no such thing as too many ferts, right? What I mean by that, the snails/shrimp would kick the bucket LONG before there'd be any adverse effects on the plants.



One:
I do not believe this to be true. "Broad Spectrum" liquid fertilizers contain trace elements most of which are catalysts for the production of chlorophyll. Some of these trace elements, such as iron which typically has the highest concentration of trace elements in a broad spectrum fertilizer, are used in the production of chlorophyll.
I once "got the brilliant idea" of adding extra iron, procured Seachem Iron and added it in only twice the the recommended quantity.
"Bad Thinking"!!!
Plants began showing significant signs of stress, green water appeared as well as significant growth of typical algae and hair algae in the tank and brown algae in the return lines from my sump to the tank. 

Two:
I am not familiar with shrimp but no effect to common snails (ie. the unwanted snails which come with plants) was observed.




fishbone said:


> Today I'm going to do a PWC, dose according to instructions with Flourish Excel and I'm also replacing FloraPride with Flourish ...


I have tried several liquid fertilizers but now only use Seachem Flourish Excel.




fishbone said:


> I've always wondered this too. What effect does Seachem Prime and other such conditioners on fertilizers? They remove chlorine, detoxify ammonia, nitrite, etc but they also remove, I quote "iron and other metals in typical concentrations found in drinking water". Granted I have well water so I could potentially stop using Prime, but I feel better using it and will continue to do so.


IMHO the less additives (medications or otherwise) induced to tank water the better.
Unless your well water is disinfected with chlorine or chloramine I would not do this one.
Please note that if you have an environmental laboratory (we have several in San Angelo) you can go to their establishment, obtain a clean test plastic bottle, rinse the bottle thoroughly three times with the water which you refill your tank with* and they will charge you approximately $25 (at least in San Angelo) for a "high end water analysis".
*The water should not be taken directly from the well but from the "faucet which you use for WC's".




fishbone said:


> When I was at the pet store I was also recommended either a 50/50 or 10k bulb. Is the stock bulb adequate for now, or should I consider one of those 2 with the plants that I have?


I do not have a clue as to what a 50/50 bulb may be but a 10K bulb emits white light (which is not sunlight) and 10K bulbs constitute 3/4 of my lighting.


TR


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I found out what bulbs are in use by the All-Glass strip ligth I have, they are rated at 9325ºK so should be plenty good.
For now I will continue to do what I have been doing so far and today I am going to do my usual 40% PWC and dose with Flourish and Flourish Excel.

BTW, the Flourish stuff is supposed to be the color of soy sauce, right? Any adverse effect if it is NOT placed in the refrigerator for a while? The bottle says it's recommended that you place it in a fridge after opening, but the bottle I got from the LFS had a small tear in the top seal.

What I have noticed, this may well be just placebo, the leaves have started to get a deeper green coloration after 2 days with this new light. Right now I'm running my lights from 8AM to 10PM, so that's a good 14 hours of light a day.

The plants that I have are:
-green gecko crypt variation
-brazillian pennywort
-java fern/moss
-one other that I can't pinpoint

The Java fern is as green as ever, but the moss lost it's bright green coloration and is taking on a dull brown.
Here's a pic from where all was the best it's ever been
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5115650580115406194
Compare the sorry state of the floating plant to how it was when I got it from a planted tank fanatic
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5110536934858395586
Will appropriate light save it?


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Are you keeping tabs on your pH and hardness? I've noticed that if I let my pH shift some plants suddenly get less happy.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I've been slacking as far as monitoring water parameters. I just watch for ammonia and nitrate, sometimes nitrate for tell-tale signs of disaster. pH has never oscilated too much but it might be possible since we're going into winter? Also, a pH swing that would cause stress to plants would sure as heck stress my shrimp I think. They're like a tank barometer as far as I can tell  Stuff goes bad, they kick the bucket.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

A lot of water conditioners have a trace of EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetracetic acid). Its a cool molecule that wraps 4 arms around heavy metals and kelates them. Because it grabs Ca+2 and Mg+2 ions, you might see a decrease in hardness. The reason its added is that it is non-toxic to fish and will protect fish from toxic heavy metals like mercury.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

pH can swing with CO2 addition, so I'm thinking the carbon feeding ferts might also have an effect. It something to watch whenever you start adding new chemicals, including ferts, and meds.


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2007)

fishbone said:


> BTW, the Flourish stuff is supposed to be the color of soy sauce, right? Any adverse effect if it is NOT placed in the refrigerator for a while? The bottle says it's recommended that you place it in a fridge after opening, but the bottle I got from the LFS had a small tear in the top seal.


Yep, the color of soy sauce. I have not heard of any adverse effects of not placing it in the refrigerator. I personally do not keep mine in the refrigerator and as far as I can tell, it hasn't caused any problems.



> What I have noticed, this may well be just placebo, the leaves have started to get a deeper green coloration after 2 days with this new light. Right now I'm running my lights from 8AM to 10PM, so that's a good 14 hours of light a day.


You may want to cut the lighting down to 10-12 hours just to prevent any algae growth that you may see with the increase in light. Its not a huge increase, so you may be fine, but its recommended to light a planted tank for 8-12 hours a day.



> The Java fern is as green as ever, but the moss lost it's bright green coloration and is taking on a dull brown.
> Here's a pic from where all was the best it's ever been
> http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5115650580115406194
> Compare the sorry state of the floating plant to how it was when I got it from a planted tank fanatic
> ...


The lighting increase should help the plants. Pennywort is a medium light plant and should definitely benefit from the new lighting. The java moss, being a low light plant, should definitely benefit from the new light.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, I hope in a week or two I will start seeing sure telltale signs that everything is returning on the right track


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, so far we're doing good, theres new leaf growth, slow but sure. Also, the leaves that have been left behind, although ragged around the edges, seem to be holding good and not dying anymore. They also seem to be a good deep green.

There wouldn't be a chance that my huge population of malaysian trumpet snails would be eating away at the roots, would there?


----------



## Guest (Nov 9, 2007)

I haven't heard of that happening, although I wonder if their moving around in the substrate could be disturbing the roots too much. I haven't heard of that occurring either, but with a ton of them, it could be possible IMO.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I usually see them on the top of the substrate. The plan is to start getting rid of them but now is kind of a bad time to ship them out, it's cold. And I don't have it in me to start killing them.

If I am dosing with Flourish, Excel and Trace, should I invest in Flourish Tabs or is it overkill at this point? Substrate is Eco Complete. For that matter, should I even _get_ Flourish Trace considering I'm religiously doing 30% weekly partial water changes? What other stuff can I throw at the problem? :lol:


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

This is what the plants look like now
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5132381666496125010
Just click next, there are 4 pictures I think. As you can see, the leaves that were eaten away at basically started withering before I changed the lighting. The snails started eating the dead parts. Now they have turned a darker green and seem to have come back to life. What do you think? The plants are shooting up new leaves from the roots, they're coming up to be nice and solid green. The floating Brazillian pennywort though still is a faded green.


----------



## Guest (Nov 13, 2007)

fishbone said:


> I usually see them on the top of the substrate. The plan is to start getting rid of them but now is kind of a bad time to ship them out, it's cold. And I don't have it in me to start killing them.
> 
> If I am dosing with Flourish, Excel and Trace, should I invest in Flourish Tabs or is it overkill at this point? Substrate is Eco Complete. For that matter, should I even _get_ Flourish Trace considering I'm religiously doing 30% weekly partial water changes? What other stuff can I throw at the problem? :lol:


Sorry I didn't see your last post.

If you have Eco complete, you don't need Flourish Tabs. Eco has alot of nutrients in it already, plus you are dosing some micro nutrients. Adding even more on top of that could be a recipe for algae.

If you are dosing Flourish, you don't need Trace IMO. They basically have the same nutrients (maybe a few of them differ). I'd choose one or the other.....or switch them up instead of dosing both.

You could dose some potassium. Thats a macro nutrient that plants need and you won't find it in micro nutrient mixes or in anything else. Flourish makes a potassium supplement.

What do your nitrates run? You may need to dose nitrogen as well if the plants are taking it in pretty fast. Plus, the shrimp and snails probably don't increase the nitrates much.



fishbone said:


> This is what the plants look like now
> http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3...81666496125010
> Just click next, there are 4 pictures I think. As you can see, the leaves that were eaten away at basically started withering before I changed the lighting. The snails started eating the dead parts. Now they have turned a darker green and seem to have come back to life. What do you think? The plants are shooting up new leaves from the roots, they're coming up to be nice and solid green. The floating Brazillian pennywort though still is a faded green.


The new leaves are definitely looking better. You may want to just cut off any of the old stems that still look bad. Some plants are more touchy than others when it comes to changing their environments, so yours are probably still adjusting to the lighting change.

Have you thought about planting the Pennywort? I know that stem plants get some nutrient through their leaves and the water column, but they probably get a fair amount from their roots as well. Many times, when I have plants floating (specifically stem plants) they will lose color and not do well. Try planting it and it should bounce back and perk up.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I haven't tested for nitrates in a while, I will go ahead and do that and see what they're at? Is there a target value for planted tanks?
I learned a new thing, micro vs macro nutrients? I'll do some investigation. My wife, who hasn't been keeping as close an eye on this as I, thinks my snails are devouring the plants. I have to admit she made me a wee bit paranoic about my mts, physa and ramshorns  I drop some bits of algae wafers and Hikari carnivore sinking bits about once every few days just to make sure they stay away 
How should I go about planting the pennywort?

Thanks for your insight! Strangely enough, the forum didn't notify me I had a new reply.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

What kind of deficiency would it be if mature large leaves seem to "wrap up"?
I just got my Flourish Potassium today and will start dosing accordingly.


----------



## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> A lot of water conditioners have a trace of EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetracetic acid). Its a cool molecule that wraps 4 arms around heavy metals and kelates them. Because it grabs Ca+2 and Mg+2 ions, you might see a decrease in hardness. The reason its added is that it is non-toxic to fish and will protect fish from toxic heavy metals like mercury.


emc7:

This is very, very good info!

You got a url which describes the details.

This may be one reason Seachem Prime is generally recommended due the effects of this EDTA.




JustOneMore20 said:


> Yep, the color of soy sauce. I have not heard of any adverse effects of not placing it in the refrigerator. I personally do not keep mine in the refrigerator and as far as I can tell, it hasn't caused any problems.


Ditto.

TR


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Have a look at these 3 pictures, as you can see the plants are doing much better.
However, why is the pennywort new growth so very pale?
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5141641433413383202
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5136090945915925858
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5141641463478154290
I was told to try and plant it in the substrate vs having it floating. How do I go about planting? I have two pieces of it basically just stuck in the substrate at one end, sitting upright.
I also have a bit of a green and brown algae growth on one of the rocks and the sides of the tank. I cleaned it up a bit with a scraper and will cut back on lighting and dosing.


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, as you can see from the picture below and the one following that, the plants are doing much better. I basically dose once a week with Flourish, once every other day with Flourish Excel and twice a week with Flourish Trace, Potassium and Nitrogen.
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/10GallonFreshwater/photo#5150551781923054914


----------



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Me again. If my phosphates are anywhere between 0.4 and 0.7, does that mean that I don't have to dose Flourish Phosphorous? I ask because it seems that some older leaves are slightly starting to curl and a dying leaf has completely curled up and turned a very dark green. Overall my plants are still doing great but I think I'm starting to see an older issue come back. Having killed all my shrimp and a bunch of snails by an accidental overdose of one of the nutrients, I'm dosing on the light side as it stands and completely skipping Phosphorous since phosphates are, theoretically, at good levels.
I am also switching as of today from 11 hours of lighting to about 8 because I'm continuing to see a slight algae problem. That should still be OK since I have low-light plants and the light is 8-watts, on a 10 gallon tank.


----------

