# Cardinal Tetra Disease!?!



## Shawnts106

Hey you guys, got a Q for U!

ok, for the past month I have been trying to get some healthy cardinal tetras to raise... but so far there have been problems along the way, 

SO lets just get right down to it!
the first dozen I recieved where florida raised cardinals...

I had cycled the tank with feeder guppys and noticed the feeders had gotten infected with guppy disease...
a day or so later the cardinals started the same thing.... 
became puffy white and died, one some it started near the tail, then began to grow tward the head, and then killing the fish, all in a days time
some it started on their "forehead" and killed them...

after all but two had died off I got the 2 left stable and doing well, then I put one more of the FLORIDA RAISED in their to make a small group for comfort...

I THEN got 11 more WILD CAUGHT which I recieved 2 days ago, and more than half of then have died off but not the same condition...
these died for various reasons.... they all exhibited these symptoms:

Popeye
Stiff fins protruding from the body with white/cream mass located near the body at the base of the fin
swollen white jaw
CRAZY SWIMMING, like flips and 360s over and over in the water
not eatting


I am begining the think that cardinals have their OWN disease like neons...

what is this!

I have treated the tank with furizone, with little to NO effect...
is there ANYTHING I can do for the remaining ???


please help!


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## Guest

Nobody is breeding cardinals in Florida, so they all were wild caught. 

Here is what I think you should do. Go to a local fish shop that has good looking cardinals and ask them to hold twelve of them for you to make sure they are healthy. Go home and trash whatever cardinals you have left and do a 100% water change on your aquarium. Wait a week and go see how the cardinals look. If they look good take them home and don't treat them with anything.

I think that is your best bet. Good luck.


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## TheOldSalt

I have to agree. Your current fish have some serious systemic infections which will render that whole tank unfit for use until cleansed, and you might as well start all over and save the trouble & expense of using better antibiotics.

Don't cycle with feeder guppies. Ever. Feeder guppies are filthy as a rule. If you want a cardinal tank, but want it cycled, then use Bio-Spira or Stability. ( or heavy planting with clean plants. )


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## Shawnts106

> Nobody is breeding cardinals in Florida, so they all were wild caught.


lol, yes they are... if Im not mistaken our supplier does...

and BTW: I work for a LFS, so yes, I do know in fact the bred ones are INDEED florida bred... they are ALOT healthier, alot HAPPIER, and A HECK OF A LOT FATTER than those of the wilds...

we have ordered wildcaught and florida bred together... they are 200% different in health, look and hardyness... the wilds always come in with 2 to 6 dead in the bag already... while the raised come in fine and dandy... maybe 1 dead out of a bag of 50....


I am not getting rid of my cardinals I have now... unless they die... they will be isolated in the tank untill I am sure they are over the sickness and have gotten fat and healthy again...

never would I "trash" a fish that could make it....



> Don't cycle with feeder guppies. Ever. Feeder guppies are filthy as a rule. If you want a cardinal tank, but want it cycled, then use Bio-Spira or Stability. ( or heavy planting with clean plants. )


I agree with the feeder guppies, they are VIAL discusting slimmy creatures from the pit of dissease... as for cycling with either of those I have a question...

how is it that the bacterial live within the bottle for months with no food... I GAURRRR-ROOONNN-TEEEEEE you if you test ammonia in the bottle it will be 0, and thats testing from a BRAND NEW bottle...

Im not saying it doesnt work, just would like to know how the bacteria stay alive for such an extended amount of time with no food to convert...

just curious about that!


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## Guest

Sorry I didn't know you worked at a fish store. :roll:


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## dwool36

I don't know how they live, but I have used both products (even used bio-spira 2 weeks AFTER adding fish) and they both work great.


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## Guest

dwool36 said:


> I don't know how they live, but I have used both products (even used bio-spira 2 weeks AFTER adding fish) and they both work great.


The guy works at a fish store he ain't gonna listen to rookies like us.


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## Shawnts106

> Sorry I didn't know you worked at a fish store.


dont worry about it...



> I don't know how they live, but I have used both products (even used bio-spira 2 weeks AFTER adding fish) and they both work great.


just a question, did you use any used filter media, any deco that was used in a tank you transferred..
once you added the fish did you monitor the ammonia carefully?

just curious.. Im not ruleing out the possibility that some of the bacteria survive but I find it hard to believe that all of them are just fine and dandy...
no food=death for anything living...

I have used BOTH products you mention... here at my home and in our store... Not saying they work, not saying they dont....
just wanting to know exactly how the bacteria survive




> The guy works at a fish store he ain't gonna listen to rookies like us.


Lets not get smart.... 
If I wasnt going to listen to "rookies" like you or whoever I wouldnt be asking questions...


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## Guest

*LOL I don't get paid enough to mod around here.*


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## Shawnts106

I can tell we arent going to get along...
You remind me of another person on another thread...


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## Shawnts106

*Bump*

Yeah, just bumping 

What other meds are good for Columnaris, Popeye and a possibly TB?
What about FURIZONE LIGHT from First Choice?
its a Gram Neg. and Gram Pos. anti-bact.... what do you guys think? it does however turn the water a nasty pee yellow color!


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## Fishfirst

Shawntz, bacteria aren't like normal living things, (although some living things can go dormant or without food for a LOOOOONG time) they can go dormant, however, every seasoned aquarist knows that a fresh product is better than an old one (in general that is... the wine we get pissed up on before we come onto fishforums and answer questions here definately gets better with age ). You can go ahead with your dosing of the anti-bacterial med, but continue it throughout the dose and lenght of time it asks. Do not (and this is coming from my observations) change meds or anything like that until you are done with the dosage and length of time (which you love to do). It would be much more economical for you to do what lotsoffish and TOS suggested but to each their own. But how do you know its not viral? or internal? genetics? Sounds to me that your main problem is getting BAD STOCK. Just because youre distributer and such says something doesn't mean its true or right. They are sales man too.


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## TheOldSalt

You won't find anything effective against TB on the shelf, and with the new strains appearing, the stuff you get from the health department might not work either. Chloramphenicol & Rifampin used to work, at least half the time, but good luck finding either one, especially the first one.

Bacteria are able to enter a state of dormancy under some conditions which lets them live in a bottle. They also survive chemotrophically, using whatever's handy if ammonia is absent. In fact, they only use ammonia because it's convenient. Most of the bottled bacteria products on the market are based upon this, but unfortunately, only the wrong types of bacteria can do it very well. Nitrospira, the one we want, can't. This is why all the non-nitrospira products ARE non-nitrospira products; they're easy to make whereas the right products are not easy to make. 
Stability & BioSpira don't have the shelf lives of all the other products , but they make up for this by working phenomenally better than them.

I'm not familiar with Furizone Light, but any Furi-based drug should work well enough, I would think.

EDIT: 
P.S: If you think that bacteria surviving in a bottle is weird, you should go to www.tardigrades.com and check out something REALLY weird. Tardigrades are pretty much immortal, and are the only creatures on earth, except maybe viruses, that can DIE and then come back to life. In fact, they are central in a new quest to determine the very definition of life itself, since they obviously violate the current "rules" we use to delineate life from death.


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## Shawnts106

Yeah, I know fish TB is very very very difficult to get rid of...

I know the Raised cardinals are a WHOLE LOT better in health and hardyness than that of their wild family...

The reason why my FIRST batch of raised cardinals died was because they got infected with columnaris, guppy disease, after I cycled the tank with feeders, the WILD ones died because they were not taken care of properly by the supplier, they CAME INTO my hands with popeye, half dead, other infections... thats why THEY died... 

so My new batch is going to be the raised.. but not yet, Im letting the QT tank mature before I add them...


so far so good with the 2 I have left, eatting well and everything, so I think Im in the clear with those...


Furizone Light is NitroFurizone I do believ...
its a Gram +, Gram - bacterial control agent, used it, and know it works...

I will probably just treat with the NF when the new ones come in, thanks for that tip...

Hopefully we can get over this hill!!!


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