# cycling with fish



## j-man the skater-man (Apr 4, 2005)

i have seen over and over that it is recomended to do a fishless cycle but its a little to late for me to do that as i already have got 3 guppies in my 29 gallon tank so my question is.

how do i cycle my tank the best and quickest way yet still keep my fish happy and healthy?
please describe in a good bit of detail please for the goodness of 3 cool guppies


----------



## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

well with fish already in the system, you have your ammonia source, and unfortunately this will more than likely draw your cycle out. Do multiple water changes while your ammonia spikes, when this does not spike anymore expect a nitrite spike, you can control a nitrite spike through adding aquarium salt and by doing water changes... after this spike you will be able to add more fish slowly. I would get a good test kit to test for these compounds, and watch for ammonia and nitrite not to get much above a trace amount. Good luck man


----------



## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

agreed. and If you can, seed the tank with bacteria from an established tank. bacteria grows exponentially, the more there is, the faster it grows. guppies arent the best fish to cycle with, if you can just add one at a time it would be better. gravel and filter cartriges are great bacteria sources, anything with lots of surface area.

I am also cycling my 10 gallon, and was wondering where is most of the bacteria going to be? I have put in both of my filter cartriges, all of my large rocks, and a couple plants. is most of it in the filter, on the glass, decorations and plants, or in the gravel?


----------



## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

in the gravel and in the filter media


----------



## nuc (Apr 5, 2005)

How long does bacteria survive for out of water. I have an old (2 months) tank with pump and filter that a friend gave me. Would it be wise to use this filter on my new tank?


----------



## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

no... it isn't long before the bacteria die


----------



## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Adding live plants will reduce the spiking of toxic elements. Waterchanges will slow down the cycle, but reduce the ammonia and nitrites.


----------



## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Fishfirst, how does salt help a nitrite spike? I didn't know about that. Jman, with only three guppies in a 29, you're not going to see a big spike. Just give it about three weeks and then start adding 1-2 small fish/ week. Just remember, the bacterial colony contained in your system exactly matches the fish you have. This is true for a completely cycled tank. So any time you add several fish to an existing tank, it will experience a small cycle. It's always better to add a few at a time.


----------



## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

it actually lowers the toxicity of the nitrites... thats why nitrites aren't a huge deal in saltwater aquaria.


----------



## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Fishfirst, is that also true for ammonia and nitrate? I always heard that everything is more toxic at a higher PH. This is a very confusing subject!!!


----------



## j-man the skater-man (Apr 4, 2005)

on my amonia test kit it is reading 0.5 on a scale of 0.0 to 8.0 is that low enough to avoid water changes because water changes slow the cycle?

at what point on my scale of 0.0 t0 8.o is very bad because it doesnt say what is safe and what is deadly? ( i no that ideally once the tank is up and running it should read amonia-0 nitrites-0 nitrates-3 or is this wrong aswell)

or should i start changing the water now? 

also my guppies is acting odd (staying low in the tank and not eating much) is this from stress?  

i was told feeding less and water changes will help this, do u all agree?

and lastly how would u all stock a 29 gallon tank using neon tetras, corys, zebra danio, or some other small colorful fish  (and maybe a eel or something different once the tank is conditioned)

where cand i get some seed bactirea like stuff (petsmart) and can it be used with fish in the tank already? how much does the average stuff cost?

thanks you all have already helped so much  thanks


----------



## Thunderkiss (Mar 19, 2005)

Don't feed the mmuch either. Every 2-3 days tops til you are cycled.


----------



## j-man the skater-man (Apr 4, 2005)

thunderkiss can you explain the reasoning behind your statement> feed them every 2-3 days till the cycle is over
* note= i didnt feed my fish 1 day and the next day 1 fish had half a fin!!!! he died shortly after i am not sure y


----------



## Thunderkiss (Mar 19, 2005)

Everything you put in a tank, stays in a tank, which is why i often discourage people from buying algae eaters unless they are INTO algae eaters as an animal. 
The Number one ingredient in most fish foods is fish meal.
As such, anything organic oxidizing underwater will start with ammonia, go to nitites and then nitrates.
So, one way or another, your food is fouling the tank more, either they eat it and excrete the waste or it sits on the bottom and oxidizes into ammonia.
Therefore the less you feed during the cycling of a tank the less toxic it will be. 
This is not to be construed as the end all be all. You should couple this with doing 1-2 (preferably 2) water changes per week. 
So, when doing water changes, there are 3 things to test: The pH in your tank, the pH right out of your tap and your pH out of the tap after 24 hrs.
The closer these 3 parameters are together the more water you can change. If none change, you could change 100% of your water every day if you wanted, as long as you matched the temp EXACT.
Now, you don't REALLY want to do 100% water changes, as cycling with fish is a balancing act. You WANT the ammonia and nitrites to be there for bacteria to spawn, but you want to keep it low enough to not kill your fish.
Tricky, but very possible.


----------



## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

ron v wrote:


> how does salt help a nitrite spike? is that also true for ammonia and nitrate? I always heard that everything is more toxic at a higher PH.


Here's an article that explains why salt helps with a nitrite spike. 
http://www.uaex.edu/aquaculture2/FSA/FSA9000.htm
Basically, if you have a sufficiently high ration of chloride ions (sallt = NaCl, ie sodium chloride) the chloride ions will be absorbed by the fish's gills rather than the nitrite, so preventing the problem. The ratios I've seen recommended vary from 9:1 to 30:1 (chloride:nitrite). The formulas for calculating the amount of salt you need to add are generally given in units useful for people who farm fish for food, so involve ppm of nitrite, acreas of pond, depth of pond in feet, pounds of salt, etc. It's difficult to redo these calculations for home aquaria, but one place I've seen
http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.htm
did the calculations for 0.1ppm nitrite, and got 1 teaspoon of salt per 300 gallons of tank water. You can adjust this according to the amount of nitrite you measure. So, for example, say you measure 3ppm nitrite. 3 is 30 times larger than 0.1, so you need 30 times more salt than the 1 teaspoon of salt per 300 gallons of tank water they give. So you get 1 teaspoon of salt per 10 gallons of tank water to treat for 3ppm nitrite. Note this is much lower than the concentrations given on many Web pages (I've seen it as high as one tablespoon per gallon!)

Salt doesn't do anything for ammonia or nitrate. Nitrate isn't a problem anyway, just do your weekly or every other week water changes and it will be low enough. You can get products that neutralize ammonia, but I'm not sure how they work.

I don't think that your comment about pH is quite correct. I know that ammonia is much more toxic at high pH, but I don't think that the same is true for nitrite or nitrate. Anyway, what does salt have to do with pH?


----------

