# Necessity of chloramine



## siriusalphacma (Dec 1, 2008)

I have two questions...

Can normal aquarium processes (bacterial, plant) remove chloramine? Assuming that I do not overdose the system with overwhelming water changes, can I safely phase in some tap water with chloramine and wait for bacteria, algae, or plant to consume it without treating with chemicals? (since it's technically "fixed" nitrogen)

And does anyone know what's in that stuff that treats chloramine? In my solution, it's an almost-thick yellowish solution... it looks nasty. How is that supposed to remove chloramine without harming the fish?!


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## ragnahr (Sep 25, 2008)

you do not need to use chemicals, leave your water to stand 24 hours wth an activated carbon filter running. that should sovle your problem


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

to remove chloramine i use Chlor-gone.a clear liquid that removes chlorine and chloramines from tapwater.1 drop per gallon for chlorine or 2 drops per gallon to remove both.simple as that..
almost all dechlorinating agents will remove chloramines..


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

An old-fashioned chlorine remover like sodium thiosulfate will remove the chlorine and leave the ammonia which can be treated like biological waste with a filter in a bucket. Modern water-treatments remove the chlorine and "detoxify" the ammonia. But the days of just letting the water sit for 24 hrs to let the chlorine come out are over. The chloramine is stable and doesn't go away, thats why they use it. It does seem to be being used less often, but is still common enough that I would treat for it every time. I suppose you could try a high-tech drinking water filter to remove the chloramine. 

I personally like to treat the water with Prime. I don't think it is wise to add untreated tap water to your tank. There is a chance the chloramine will do what they add it to do, which is to kill bacteria. If you kill off your filter bacteria, you will have "new tank syndrome" and all those problems again.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

siriusalphacma said:


> I have two questions...


:lol::lol::lol:
sa:

You asked more than two.




siriusalphacma said:


> Can normal aquarium processes (bacterial, plant) remove chloramine?


No.



siriusalphacma said:


> Assuming that I do not overdose the system with overwhelming water changes, can I safely phase in some tap water with chloramine and wait for bacteria, algae, or plant to consume it without treating with chemicals? (since it's technically "fixed" nitrogen)


No. and it is really not "fixed" as it just has a lower tendency to convert organic molecules to carcinogenic molecules than does chlorine.




siriusalphacma said:


> And does anyone know what's in that stuff that treats chloramine?  In my solution, it's an almost-thick yellowish solution... it looks nasty. How is that supposed to remove chloramine without harming the fish?!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Two more questions.

I do not and have spent a ton of time attempting to ascertain the answer to this question but these products are very proprietary and hence ....

It does not "remove chloramine" as one would typically think.

It does bond the Cl in the NH2Cl with "something" which must be fairly inert.

IMHO the NH2 is immediately reduced to a nitrate which is stable (my best guess is calcium nitrate).

lohachata has more experience than most of us on this Forum but I use *Seachem Prime* when I perform a WC with tap water.

TR

BTW sa: you have apparently done a bunch of homework: if you can get into the various "water conditioner" products' literature and ascertain additional information your posting this information would be appreciated.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> I personally like to treat the water with Prime. I don't think it is wise to add untreated tap water to your tank. There is a chance the chloramine will do what they add it to do, which is to kill bacteria. If you kill off your filter bacteria, you will have "new tank syndrome" and all those problems again.


Emc, I've been wondering/worrying about this very thing. How does one use a Python to do water changes without having untreated tap water go directly into your tank? 

I have a 29gal that I do NOT want to have to fill with multiple trips with a 2gal bucket of treated water. I have an 18gal clear tub that I used to use (grammar???) to treat the water first when I was still using the bucket method.

I saw a hand pump (like a nasal aspirator bulb) for the python once that I tried buying online but they were sold out so that never panned out. I wonder if that would be sufficient to produce pressure to get the water flowing from the 18gal tub into the tank...


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

I know many people who add untreated water to their tank, and then add the dechlorinator. *shrug* Lucky, I guess?


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## frogman5 (Mar 13, 2007)

prime is the best water conditioner


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

The guy at Petsmart said that nowadays, any water conditioner works. So he recommended the petsmart brand because it was cheapest. For other chemicals, he recommended going the name brand route since they were more complicated than simple dechlorinator and the store brand just wasn't as good. 

I thought that was interesting, because on a later visit, I taught him how to tell the difference between male and female mollies. Yeah, I'm going to listen to his advice on fishkeeping.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> How does one use a Python to do water changes without having untreated tap water go directly into your tank?


Sam: apparently the molecules in Prime are very aggressive. I very rarely do a WC with tap water but when I do I put like 1.5X the recommended dose into my sump and start filling the sump with tap water (never had a problem with this that I know of).




Manthalynn said:


> I saw a hand pump (like a nasal aspirator bulb) for the python once that I tried buying online but they were sold out so that never panned out. I wonder if that would be sufficient to produce pressure to get the water flowing from the 18gal tub into the tank...


Sam: if the water surface elevation in your tank is like 3' above a discharge location (back yard, kitchen sink, bathtub drain, flower pots, etc.) I have found that a 3/4" tube is superior to a Python for several reasons in the evacuation of the water from my tank.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Sam: apparently the molecules in Prime are very aggressive. I very rarely do a WC with tap water but when I do I put like 1.5X the recommended dose into my sump and start filling the sump with tap water (never had a problem with this that I know of).


I don't have a sump, just a free-standing 29gal.





> Sam: if the water surface elevation in your tank is like 3' above a discharge location (back yard, kitchen sink, bathtub drain, flower pots, etc.) I have found that a 3/4" tube is superior to a Python for several reasons in the evacuation of the water from my tank.


Yeah, tonight I forwent (is that a word? The correct conjugation? oy!) the python and used the large tub. 

Did I totally hijack this conversation? Should I start a new thread? Or am I adding to this particular conversation? I never know!:chair:


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you add untreated water to a tank, you put the water treatment in the tank after you take you the water change water out and before you fill it up. Its important to base the dose of water conditioner on the *size of the tank*, not on the amount of water you are adding. So if you are changing 5 galllons in 20, you use 4X the amount of conditioner if you use a python than if you use a bucket. 

Its ok to use the cheapest water conditioner than treats chloramine, but check the price based on the gallons treated, not the ounces. The last time I checked, Prime cost 3X the store brand's price per ounce, but treats 5X the amount of water per ounce.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i have a python;but i never use the venturi as it is a horrendous waste of water.my water bill is already almost $100 a month;i certainly do not need to triple it.i leave that for folks with more money than they know what to do with.the lift tube is hooked up to a garden hose that goes to the drain.when i lived upstairs in a double house i just ran the hose out the window to the ground.gravity works great.and no buckets.then i just hook the hose up to the faucet to refill the tanks..unless i do more than a 40% water change i don't use a dechlorinating agent.it certainly doesn't seem to bother my fish any as many of them will spawn within a couple of days after the water changes.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

emc7 said:


> If you add untreated water to a tank, you put the water treatment in the tank after you take you the water change water out and before you fill it up. Its important to base the dose of water conditioner on the *size of the tank*, not on the amount of water you are adding.


Took me a minute to figure this sentence out, but that's good advice. I always added the treatment after I added the new water. I had read recently about dosing with the amount in the tank, not the amount added. Good to hear it repeated by a veteran.


> Its ok to use the cheapest water conditioner than treats chloramine, but check the price based on the gallons treated, not the ounces. The last time I checked, Prime cost 3X the store brand's price per ounce, but treats 5X the amount of water per ounce.


Good idea to check on this. Thanks!


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

lohachata said:


> i have a python;but i never use the venturi as it is a horrendous waste of water.my water bill is already almost $100 a month;i certainly do not need to triple it.i


I don't pay for water directly (the landlord does) but I imagine that if we keep running up the water bills, the rent will go up...

But my biggest beef is just the wasted water. That is SOOO much water to go needlessly down the drain! I grew up in California during the 80's drought so water saving techniques are religion to me.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I use a sink hose to refill, but gravity for draining and a power filter for gravel washing. We have drought here and wasting water is not something I want to do.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I hear you on the drought there in GA. I had several greenhouse customers there and they were cancelling orders left and right because the drought was so crippling.

I have a powerhead that I got in a hodgepodge of used aquarium equipment. Would I be able to use this to set up a suction?

I'm thinking of stringing my python from the tank (which is on a 2 foot stand) out to my backyard (about 15-20 feet away and down one step). Would a powerhead create enough suction to get it to drain like a gravel vac?

Then I could use the python to fill the 18gal tub sitting right next to the tank. Treat the tub water, then use the powerhead to pump the treated water up into the tank? I really need to inspect this powerhead and figure out how it works so I can use it to my advantage...


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I have a python but I don't use the faucet pressure to drain the tank. I just suck start it (really easy with a 50 foot hose, no way to accidentally swallow anything LOL) and then use the faucet to refill. I only put enough water dechlorinator for the amount of water replaced. Some have said to put in a full tanks volume worth but I have never done that. Tanks always been fine.


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## Chrispixx (Dec 23, 2008)

Manthalynn said:


> I hear you on the drought there in GA. I had several greenhouse customers there and they were canceling orders left and right because the drought was so crippling.
> 
> I have a powerhead that I got in a hodgepodge of used aquarium equipment. Would I be able to use this to set up a suction?
> 
> ...



That is way too much work and not necessary. I have been doing this a long time, and have been using a python for the last 8-10 years or so. I drain then refill then dose the tank with prime, and have never had a problem. After all the python was invented to make this hobby easier and since the introduction of it i have given up on lifting buckets, powerheads, suck starting hoses and all.




emc7 said:


> If you add untreated water to a tank, you put the water treatment in the tank after you take you the water change water out and before you fill it up. Its important to base the dose of water conditioner on the *size of the tank*, not on the amount of water you are adding.



Let me run this by you and tell me if it makes sense. If you are changing water in a 30 gal. tank and change 10 gals. the 20 gal. of water left in the tank does not have chlorine in it so you would only need to treat for the water that is going back in. 10 gals. in this case.




Obsidian said:


> I have a python but I don't use the faucet pressure to drain the tank. I just suck start it.


I have a garden hose quick disconnect on my python where it hooks to the faucet venturi switch. Then i can run the water enough to get the suction going, shut the water off, disconnect it, kink the hose and place it in the bathtub to let it drain. Then just reverse the procedure to refill. Best piece i ever bought.


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