# Please Help me save betta from nitrites!



## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Moved my daughter's betta fish from a 1 to a 3 gallon tank just a few days ago. The tank had been running empty for 2 weeks. Also has a mystery snail. Today fish is sitting in only one spot, hardly even moving the gills. I tested the water- pH is fine, Ammonia zero, but Nitrite off the chart and Nitrates 80. Immediately changed 1/3 of the water- Nitrites are still over 5.0, Nitrates about 40 now. The fish is swimming around a bit now. Really want to save him. What do I do? more partial water changes? how often? Or should I change a hundred percent?

I was surprised there was no Ammonia because I thought a 3 gal too small to host the bacteria for it to cycle...? I know I should do partial water changes 2x weekly but it had only been 2 days. I suspect my daughter was overfeeding her fish so we are not feeding him again until get the water levels safe.

I use Topfin Betta water conditioner which neutralizes ammonia, chloramine and chlorine. I also have Prime, should I use that instead now? Does it stress the fish to switch the kind of conditioner?

Please advise!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Do a really big water changes and use the "emergency" 4X dose of prime. I might even do 100%, Nitrite is deadly, get rid of it. Try to match pH, hardness and temp in a big water change or let it move slowly. Put the fish in a small container, drain the tank. Put the fish in the container back in the tank and add the new water really slowly, watching the fish for reaction. 

Switching conditioner is not an issue unless the old one is one that "add alkalinity" or otherwise messes with pH/hardness/salinity. Until you get nitrite under control, using one that "detoxifies nitrite" is good idea.

You can "cycle" any size tank as long as you have a filter, but small tanks are notoriously unstable and a single overfeeding can kill your "cycle" and sometimes the fish, too.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok, thanks!! It does have a filter, and heater... I am going to do that w/the Prime, and probably remove the substrate so it's bare bottom, easier to see when overfed. 

How often should I be doing partial water changes, once this is okay...? I used to do 100% change once a week when he was in the 1 gal. Should I be doing a smaller change more often?


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## TheJakeM (May 11, 2013)

I'd do 50% a week, that's what I do with my 5 and 2.5. Maybe a few plants could also help with your problem.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

It's got some java moss- is that enough to help? Otherwise just a few plastic plants and a log for him to hide in. Getting rid of the gravel so will be easier to keep clean.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

I've done it. Put him back in w/just an inche of old tank water and a bit of the new water, triple-dosed with Prime (bottle said up to 5x ok in nitrite emergency). He already looks WAY better, swimming around and breathing ok now. I'm so relieved. Going to gradually fill the tank up again and then test. If nitrite still too high, I'm assuming I should do continue to do more, partial changes until it's zero?

Thanks so much for helping us out!!
My daughter was nearly in tears an hour ago.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Does the little tank have a filter? If not, getting 0 will really tough. Likely need a lot of live plants and daily wcs to keep it down. If yes, then 0 is the goal, but you will start to see nitrates before nitrites drop to 0 and stay there. This is a pretty typical new tank issue. Keep an eye on the fish, as you saw, when he is unhappy you will see it.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Slowly add clean water, speeding up as you go. The more water he is in, the faster you can add the rest.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok. It's about halfway there now. I was adding one cupful of water about every 10 or 15 min, am now doing 2 cupfuls at a time. He's still doing okay. Even tried to flare at me a minute ago.

Yes, it has a filter. I'm going to keep a close eye on it and test the water at least once a day until it's stable.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Update: I think he's out of danger. Nitrites are now 0.25, Nitrates at or under 40ppm. Is that Nitrite level safe for overnight, or should I do another water change to bring it down further, and if so how much? 50%? 30%?

Fish looks much better!


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Fish survived the night, acting normal but I tested and Nitrites have climbed again to 5. I'm doing a 50% change, keep testing. I guess it's an in-fish cycle now, I have to keep doing wc every day until it stops... not at all what I intended to deal with. Feel bad for Hector.

I read that small dose of salt will help alleviate the affects of Nitrite poisoning on fish. I put dissolved aquarium salt in last night, just 1/4 teaspoon in 3 gallon. Don't want to hurt the snail. Is that enough to help, and should I continue doing it as long as I have Nitrite problems?


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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

Don't add too much salt, Bettas are freshwater fish. Plus salt doesn't evaporate so be careful how much you add. I think that's enough salt.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Should I not add anymore then? I had to do three wc today to bring the nitrites down again from 5.0 to below 0.25: started with 50% change, then two 30% changes. I thought to dose with 1/8 teaspoon but if it's not helpful then I won't.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I have also read salt helps with nitrite toxicity. The important thing with any salt added is to keep the level constant or only let it change slowly. Any sudden change, esp. lower is stressful for the fish.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Oh dear. So I should have put a portion in w/the water change, equal to the percent I had removed from the tank, right? 1/8 tsp when I changed 50% and less again when I changed 30%? But it's been hours now, so I am unsure if I should put salt again or not. What do you think?


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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

Keep it at the level it is at now, but once your betta problem is done slowly remove the salt from his environment. Prolonged exposure wont do him any good.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I would just leave it out. Just because I wouldn't trust myself to know how much was in now and get the math right every time I did a water change. A little salt isn't harmful, but seesawing levels are bad. The Prime should be enough protection along with wcs. Does your test kit say what level of nitrites is "safe".


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

It says _any_thing above 0 is harmful. Other places I read online say that 0.25 is ok for short periods, anything over 1.0 lethal. It shows between 0 and 0.25 on the color chart now. I'm trying to keep it as low as I can w/out stressing the fish too much w/the frequent water changes.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Isn't the amount of salt reduced by the water changes? I feel like I changed so much of the water out today, it should be nearly all gone...?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Yes, it goes down. assuming its all mixed in, its just concentration math. Change 50% of the water, lose 50% of the salt. You can figure it out with a spreadsheet. If you change 20% twice and 50% once, what's left is .8 * .8 * .5 = .32 or 32% of what you started with. I generally don't recommend people use additives when they are in the midst of "cycling" because its so easy to mess up. When thing settle down and every water change is the same, that's the time to add the same ammount every time.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok. Thanks. Math is not my strong point. I haven't looked at the water parameters since 4pm but just tested nitrites again and it's back to 2.0 so must do another wc before bed now. Is four a bit much in one day...? I am kind of alarmed how quickly it rises again.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Stop feeding. Is there anything else that could be making ammonia which makes nitrite? dead plant, algae, rotting driftwood? At this point i'd suggest a bacteria booster product like Stability. If you can get nitrite to convert to nitrates, its far less toxic. One fish in 3 gallons shouldn't be this hard. Once "cycled" you should be able to get on a schedule. maybe 50% weekly and be good. If the child is young, hide/lock-up the food.


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

it sounds like youre mid cycle, don't you know a friend with a tank? get them to clean their filter and give you a bag of what comes from it


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

I haven't fed since noticed the problem, yesterday morning. There is only a small clump of java moss in there- no other live plants, no algae that I notice, the log is a fake decor. Snail in there but he hasn't been fed either. I think I know when the water got real bad- my kid gave the snail 1/2 an algae wafer and it didn't eat the whole thing. I told her we're not feeding anything in that tank until the water is stable, and after that probably give the snail 1/4 algae wafer every other day. She is old enough to understand that and agrees (9). The food is kept out of reach regardless.

I'm going to cut a piece off the old filter media in my 20gal and put that in the filter, but the thing's so small there's not much room for anything but the cartridge it came with.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok. I took a piece of the filter media from my 20gal- only 1/2x1" would fit in that little filter. Don't know why I didn't think of doing that before! I guess because I wasn't expecting the 3gal to cycle, I was taken by surprise when it started spiking nitrites, it really threw me off kilter.

Thanks much for the suggestion, weedkiller. Expecting to do another wc first thing in the morning but I'm hoping for improvement tomorrow. 

(No, I don't have any friends w/aquariums. They say to me "what would I do with a fish? I'd kill it" and seem amused at my new fish obsession ha ha)


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

The snail died today. I removed it. Nitrites are still spiking but not quite so high as yesterday, and easier to bring down. I still had to do three partial water changes.


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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

Maybe the snail was part of the problem, they can poop a lot. Lets hope the snail was the problem.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

I want to move Hector back into his old 1 gallon, so I don't have to worry about the nitrites, can let them climb sky-high and the cycle finish itself 

But worried now about the health of the fish so to be sure I checked the water in the 1 gallon before putting him in, and the ammonia was too high. I had never thought to check my tapwater, so I did now. It comes out at 1.0 but the normal dose of TopFin Betta water conditioner I use didn't remove it all, just to 0.5 so I thought I ought to use Prime, tested, and that didn't remove it all either! Finally I tried a double-dose of the TopFin conditioner and that put it at 0.25 ammonia. Is this safe? shouldn't it be at zero? Why doesn't a regular dose get rid of it all? 
:-?
I didn't know my tapwater had ammonia before, and now I feel bad that for 8 months my other bettas have probably had constant ammonia in their homes, even when I thought I had removed it w/the conditioner. I need to get them all moved up into larger tanks that can cycle properly as soon as I can. I even wonder if that's what harmed the first betta I had- he got a swollen lump under his gill and eventually died, some guy at a pet store told me fish can get cancer (do they?) but now I think it might have been inflamed gills from ammonia poisoning.

But long story short, what do I do now? Is it ok to double the dose of the conditioner every time? Or use even more, to get rid of ammonia completely? I'm assuming that frequent nitrite spikes, four water changes a day and the risk of temperature fluctuations with that (even though I try to be very careful) is probably worse for him than some low ammonia, and the little tank will cycle faster once he's out of it and I'm not constantly trying to keep the fish alive by bringing the nitrite down...


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

my suggestion...again.....
find a drawer or cabinet........put the test kit in and close it...forget about it...
pay attention to the fish..if it appears to be suffering then do something..but don't freak out before something happens....
i am nothing special in this hobby..no tricks , no magic , no special knowledge....but....
i have not owned nor used a test kit in more than 35 years..i use a high quality dechlorinating agent , but only when i am doing a new set up or more than a 40% water change.the product i use is "Chloram-X"..i buy it in 10 pound buckets...it is not cheap but worth every penny...i use NO other water conditioners.....i know that a lot of folks here use prime and like it ; but i won't touch it.
I DO NOT CYCLE MY TANKS.....................i put the chloram x in and fill them..then i add the fish..each week they get a 30-50% water change with water straight out of the tap.. but there are a couple of things i am fussy about...
1.a variety of quality foods..(easy for me , i sell the stuff)
2.filtration..."EVERY TANK IS FILTERED"
3.temperature.....i make sure that i research any new fish to make sure i keep them at their preferred temps..why do people buy bettas and put them in a container with no heat or filtration ? because they see them in the stores like that....bettas can take a lot of abuse but there is no reason to do it..give them a 2-5 gallon tank and do it just like it were a 55....give them a nice little sponge filter and a heater..keep their temp at 80 degrees..
it's not that hard to do and certainly not rocket science...just be calm and pay attention to the fish....do not try to make the hobby too complicated...
another thing i always tell folks....

"The more you mess with your tanks ; the more problems you create for yourself.."

by the way..any dechlorinating agent i have tried that says it removes or detoxifies Ammonia needs about twice the normal dose to do it...and while you may still get a reading from the test , the Amonnia is no longer harmful..

ok ; i'm done hollerin..lol


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Well, I did not want to see the pet fish suffering (my daughter was sad enough at loosing her new snail) so I was anxious and testing, changing water very often, yes. Now that I have moved him back into his old home I'm not freaking out about the water parameters and didn't even feel the need to test it this morning. I'm just going to let it be, do its cycle thing and test in a day or two to see if the nitrites are starting to drop any.

So if the ammonia is 0.25 that's okay? I'm pretty sure that's what it has always been for my bettas, when I was doing the regular dose of conditioner, and they always seemed just fine (except the first one who got the lump and died). I will be using double the dose of conditioner from now on, just for my peace of mind that more ammonia is removed or neutralized.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2014)

lohachata said:


> my suggestion...again.....
> find a drawer or cabinet........put the test kit in and close it...forget about it...
> pay attention to the fish..if it appears to be suffering then do something..but don't freak out before something happens....
> i am nothing special in this hobby..no tricks , no magic , no special knowledge....but....
> ...


LOL! Maybe people will listen now and not mess with their tanks so much.

Anyway, lohachata is right. I have a test kit and I only use it when something is going on with my fish and/or tank. 

Right now I have high nitrates and trying to get them down. I put in a Purigen filter media last night, plan to do a water change today, then test in a week and see if the nitrates are going down any, hopefully they will be. It is hard not to mess with the tank, but as lohachata has said many times, and I think he should put it in all caps next time he says it, "the more you mess with your tanks; the more problems you create for yourself". This is so very true, even though I don't mess with my tank very much.

So what I would do is leave your tank alone for a week, let things settle and let it have a chance to cycle. After a week, test your water, then let it cycle some more. Betta are the hardiest of fish that can take a lot of abuse, but too much and they will succumb and die.

I would let the tank cycle for at least a month to make sure every thing is going good. Once you start adding fish, add the hardy fish first, then the sensitive fish. The sensitive fish will let you know if there are any problems with the water conditions or not. DO NOT GET CLOWN LOACHES, they are very sensitive to water conditions and won't survive fluctuations in the water conditions at first. They need a very established tank in order to do good. They also need an experienced fish keeper who knows that you have to treat the disease at the first sign in order to save them, and how to treat them with medication.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Ok. I was not thinking of clown loaches- don't they get way too big for a tiny tank? It's just the betta, maybe a new snail.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2014)

Jeane09 said:


> Ok. I was not thinking of clown loaches- don't they get way too big for a tiny tank? It's just the betta, maybe a new snail.


Yes they do get huge, like over 10" easily.

I would wait on getting a new snail until you have that tank cycled. 

Take a look at my thread: Question about my small clown loach. There is a picture of my big clown loach, she is 7" and 7 years old.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Right. Not putting the fish back, nor getting any new aquatic life for that tank until it's cycled. I think the stress of all the ups and downs killed the poor snail.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2014)

That is very likely what happened. But always remember what lohachata said about messing with the tank.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

I haven't tested anything today. Just going to step back and let it do its cycling thing. But since I took the fish & snail out, do I need to put an ammonia source in? I thought maybe the trimmings off plants from my other tank that have some decay, or a pinch of fish food. It's how I cycled the bigger tank, but since this one is so much smaller, it won't need as much ammonia supplied?


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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

You need the same amount as amonia as with the big tank. Its not about the size of the tank its about the population you want in it. Anyways I'm confused now, did you move your betta back to the 1g and now you are fishless cycling the 3g? Just want to see if I got everything right.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

snails need a proper diet as well as the fish..mostly vegetable matter..make sure they get plenty of calcium also..buy a cuttlebone from the pet store..break off about 1/4 of it and place in the tank with the snail...you can use the snail to cycle the tank..just a pinch of food each day will be fine..


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

BettaGuy- yes, that's right. The betta is precious to my daughter, so I didn't want to risk him dying during the cycle, plus the constant monitoring of nitrites to keep it safe for him was stressing me out. So I put him back in his 1-gallon. He looks content. It's fishless cycle now. Hope that hasn't set me back too much. So the 3-gallon is seeded with filter media from my bigger tank, plus browned plants leaves tied in a bit of nylon, and I'm going to add a pinch of fish food every day. That should work?

I thought it should stay bare-bottom because it will help us remember to feed the fish less, if we see how much waste is lying on the bottom. But if substrate will make the tank more stable, providing greater area for the good bacteria to live on, maybe I should add the gravel?

Lohachata- the snail has died (yesterday). I suppose I could have left his body in there to rot and give ammonia, but I really didn't want to look at it all nasty. So I'm using the dead plants & fish food (see above).

I will get some cuttlebone, my ramshorn in the big tank probably needs that too! They sell those in the section for birds, right?


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Will cuttlebone raise the pH any? I had trouble getting my pH stable before and don't want it to go up again. My ramshorn is a small snail, if I just break off a piece of the cuttlebone and put that in, how much would be enough for him...? his shell is about a half inch across, maybe less.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

a piece about the size of a quarter will be fine.i wouldn't worry about it affecting the PH.
get another snail for the tank that is cycling.


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## BettaGuy (May 6, 2012)

dead snail smells nasty, you don't want to leave that in there for long. I had a dead nerite snail in a tank once, smelled really terrible in there after two days.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

Yeah, funny, it did not smell much at first. I was not even sure it was dead but it hadn't moved in an entire day and there was white fuzz growing. When I picked it up it did not pull back into the shell and seal closed like normal, or move at all when gently poked. Then I figured it really was gone. My daughter wanted to save the shell so I pried the body out- it didn't take much effort at all- and _then_ the stink was awful. Wow.


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## Jeane09 (Nov 19, 2013)

the little tank has cycled!
but I'm debating now if I should get a 5 gal instead
if it will be more stable...


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## weedkiller (Nov 18, 2012)

I doubt it would be, its still small enough to take a massive hit from a minor problem as small tanks do...
go large and have a centre piece to be proud of


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## marcshrimp (Jun 16, 2013)

i posted on the wrong thread


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