# Thinking about Converting



## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

Hi all.

I have kept tropical fish for quite a few years now - currently a Malawi setup - and am now wanting to go through the Marine tank (Fish first, Coral later) experiance, but I would like some advice before making that decision.

The Plan is to convert my 450 Litre Juwel Vision. From what I have read, once setup this size tank should remain more stable than starting with a smaller tank.

Firstly, filters. I have 2 x external Cannister filters which I would like to use as I don't have the space for a sump (and I need to keep the costs down, so re-using what I have is preferable). Is there anything specefic I need to do with the media in the filters? Is giving it a good clean in ice cold water ok or should I replace the media entirely?

I also have a bunch of Ocean rock which I used in my orginal Malawi setup. This has been out of the water for nearly 6 months now. I was wondering if I could use the ocean rock as base rock to place the live rock on top of. If this is ok, do I need to bleach the ocean rock I have prior to using it again? Or can I just power wash it? Also, will the live rock / Sand seed the ocean rock? I am concious that I will be using quite a large tank, so would require quite a bit of live rock - this will get extremely expensive if I have to go out and buy all live rock.

The sand in my freshwater is the standard petstore stuff. Will this need to be changed? Or can I remove half of it and replace with Crushed Coral / Argonite / Live sand? Will I need to clean the sand I have in there at the moment or is it ok as it is? I was going to go for about a 2" to 3" base.

I have T5 lighting in my tank (4 Bars). Will this be sufficient for my setup? Will I need all 4 bars for my Day lighting or will 2 bars be enough (leaving the other 2 bars for moonlight). Any suggestions on light combinations is greatly appreciated. MH system is out of my price range at the moment but this may change in the future.

For maintenance, I have read that 5% water change per week is a good discipline, but do I hoover the sand? Or does the clean up crew take care of this?

My Plan is as follows (For the moment!)

Start selling my Cichlids, 3d background etc. Use cash to buy

- Live Sand / Crushed Coral
- Live Rock
- Hydrometer
- Salt
- RO unit
- Protein Skimmer
- Salt water Test kits

Once I have done that, start using the RO to build up water supply. Fill tank with water, add salt and start cycle.

Once the cycle is complete, add the live sand and base rock, let the tank cycle again (I expect there would be a few undesirable spikes once the live sand is in?)

Add Protein Skimmer. Is a UV Sterilizer neccesary?

Add Live Rock (A few pieces a week)

Add Clean up crew once tank is stable

Add fish over time.

Is there anything I have missed? I know there are many questions but I really want to get this right and I will be taking my time with this.

Any help and advice is hugely welcomed.


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## funlad3 (Oct 9, 2010)

Here I am! The tank you have will make for an AWESOME SW tank. I love the Juwels. 

I'd leave the canister filters out altogether; they're to effective at nitrification, creating nearly unmanageable levels of nitrates. Instead, I'd sell them and use the money to buy a good skimmer outright. It may be difficult finding a HOB skimmer large enough for your tank size though...

Anyways, as long as you didn't use copper in the tank with the cichlids, the original dry rock should be fine for your setup. A good rinsing in clean water should be all that you need. The sand should be at the very least removed. If it's calcium carbonate based, just rinse it well in a buckets and add it back in. If it's a gravely substance, ditch it and look into some of the CaribSea types of sand. Mixing grain sizes looks great!

Live sand is worthless, as the rock will quickly seed to the sand. You're also correct in assuming that the live rock will seed the dry rock, it's a great way to save money! Some people will only add one small piece of live rock into their tank full of dry rock. Rock is considered "live" when it's been inoculated with nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria. That's basically what the cycle is, the decomposition of matter feeding the rapid growth and proliferation of bacteria. It may take a while for the dry rock to gain the color of the live rock, but it will serve the same purpose.

As far as lighting, most people use a 50/50 mix of white daylights and actinic lights (the blue ones). Actinics are usually powered on an hour or two before the daylights and ran an hour or two after the daylights turn off. "Nightlights" are usually weakly powered blue LEDs that are run throughout the night until the actinics power on. Moonlights aren't required though, but they can be cool.

I think I've covered it all for now. If you have any other questions, just ask!


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

Yay,, was hoping you would reply. Was checking your tank out on youtube, it looks ace!



funlad3 said:


> Here I am! The tank you have will make for an AWESOME SW tank. I love the Juwels.
> 
> _I hope so! I was worried about the size originaly. Trying to keep costs down in a 450l tank is difficult, and I nearly lost heart after heading to the fish shop today for a chat - more of that a bit later_
> 
> ...



hehe, just the above for now. Don't want to annoy you too much with dumb questions all at one time. I like to spread my stupidness over a longer time frame


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## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

Take funlad's advice about the canisters. A protein skimmer is more useful than a mechanical/biological filter in a saltwater tank. The live rock will take care of the biological.

Don't use the rocks that were treated with copper. Most inverts (including coral, shrimp, snails and hermit crabs) will be hurt by even trace amounts of copper.

Live sand is worthless, unless you like the look of it over the other sands you can buy. Go with what looks best to you. Also, put as much sand as you would like in there. The water will offer more pressure on the glass than the sand. 

You usually run the blue lights all day with the white lights. The blue ones stay on for dawn and dusk, and the white ones are the daylight. You should buy a couple of cheap timers to do it all for you. 

Oh and ask as many questions as you have. We wont be annoyed.


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks bytes!

Ok check - Live sand, useless. Canister filters, useless. I can flog them and use the cash to buy some power heads.

So if the live rock will be the biological filtration, I take it that once I have prepared the water in the tank, the first thing to go in it is sand and a few pieces of live rock, followed by a prawn to kick off the cycle? I am just a bit worried that putting live rock into an uncycled tank would kill the life on it - and thats the last thing I want to do!

EDIT: Sorry I just wanted to clarify another 2 things. Is a UV steriliser neccessary? I always thought that since the UV sterilizer indiscrimanatly kills all bacteria, including the good stuff, then it would be a little pointless.

Also, if I get that Juwel protein skimmer, will I need a refugium too? Seen a few full sets on eBay that hang on the back.


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## funlad3 (Oct 9, 2010)

All right, some great thoughts here.

1. That skimmer should work just fine for you. It's okay to run it during the cycle if you see lots of decaying matter, but it is optional. By running the skimmer, you're taking gunk out of the water before it decomposes, helping to limit the ammonia/nitrite spikes. As long as they're readable, you're fine running the skimmer during the cycle.

2. Live rock is fine in a new tank, as long as the salt is dissolved and at the right concentration and the water is warm, the rock is more than fine.  Now, I don't know specifically what type of dry rock you have, but it should look something like this:

http://reefcleaners.org/index.php?p...category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=58

Porousity really does matter, and if you have any doubt about your rock, you're better off selling it and buying new base rock, which should be less than 2$ per pound.


3. If you've treated the display with medication, as you have, add a dilute bleach solution to the empty tank (or with your current rocks, if they're the right kind) and let it sit overnight. Fill and empty the tank with hose water a few times, fill and empty with hose water and dechlorinator at double dose twice, and rinse it out with RO water. The tank and LR should be clean as a whistle. 

4. A U.V. sterilizer is not necessary, it merely helps to keep the water clean. Assuming that you set up your tank correctly and don't forget about it for two months, water clarity shouldn't be a problem. 

5. Live sand is nice, and it might ever so slightly reduce tank cycle time, but at the added cost, the extra day isn't worth it. Sand bed depth is up to you, you could have anywhere from none all the way up to the VISUAL limit of six inches. More than that works, but it really has no purpose. 

6. Lighting usually goes like this. Blue turns on for dawn, white turns on for day with the blue still on, white turns off for dusk, blue turns off for night. Enjoy!


Again, if you have any more questions (or pictures of your rock!), just ask/post! :fun:


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

Once again, many thanks for the help!

There are some pics of my old tank - http://www.fishforums.com/forum/cichlids/34587-450l-malawi-tank.html

And an obligatory youtube video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyQ0o91bUC0

Ah right I see, so I guess the live rock is what helps cycle the tank? I was worried about it dieing.

Think I am getting a good picture of whats required to get this started, getting excited!
Fella popped round to see my malawi's this evening. He only wanted the female fire fish originally, he ended taking all of them! Spent 2 hours catching them :/ but got £125 for them. Just the Syno's to go then I can start replacing the equipment.

Good plan with tank and rock cleaning. How much bleach do you think would do it without it being overkill? 2 or 3 caps?


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## funlad3 (Oct 9, 2010)

One gallon/Liter of bleach per ten gallon/Liters of water. After cleaning in bleach, rinse rinse rinse! You can't over clean a tank! :fun:

By the way, the rock in your picture below will work perfectly in your reef. Just make sure to treat it with the tank, and when you first set everything up, run some carbon.


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

ah ok, thats quite a lot of bleach. Looking at 40 litres of it! I'm glad about the rock, some serious savings there.

Things are beggining to move along nicely. Sold my Cichlids and I am trading my old eheim pro 2026 for a 50gpd RO unit. 

Now, do I need a Refugium? They seem quite handy to control algae. If so, at what point do I turn it on?

I have 2 x 3000 LPH power heads and have found 2 x 6000 LPH power heads on ebay. Is this overkill do you think? 18k lph turn over. Thats my tank turned over 44 times an hour! (Might ditch the 3k ones) Also, is there any specefic placement required? I understand not having dead spots is important, but with the difference in power of the heads I am unsure how to place them. For example, 3k heads high in the tank and 6k heads low? 2 power heads in the back left corner pointing to the back right corner, and 2 power heads in the front right corner pointing at the front left?

I have made a list because I have OCD for lists. Anything missing?

1	Sell fish and equipment
2	Drain tank
3	Remove sand
4	Pull tank out and wash glass
5	Place sea rock in tank

6	Fit RO unit and begin purifying

7	Fill tank with water and bleach solution (1L Bleach to 10L water) Leave over night
8	Drain tank

9	Fill tank with tap water and double dose of aqua safe
10	Drain tank
11	Fill tank with tap water and double dose of aqua safe
12	Drain tank
13	Fill tank with RO water
14	Drain tank

15	Setup Protein Skimmer - Cut hood to shape
16	Setup power heads (4) 2x 6k lph & 2x 3k lph
17	Setup Refugium if one is required - Cut hood to shape
18	Setup Heaters

19	Tidy up cabling at back of tank and move tank back into position

20	Place dry rock in its final position
21	Throw in Sand
22	Setup Salinity
23	Turn heaters and powerheads on. Check flow all round the tank for deadspots
24	Leave on overnight
25	Check Salinity and adjust accordingly until perfect

26	Place Live rock in the tank
27	Turn on skimmer
28	Turn on Refugium (if required)
29	Setup Lighting

30	Begin tank Cycle


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

I think this might be a big no no, but I have an opportunity of buying 40kg of establised live rock from a mature tank for £270. (Thats what, about 80 lbs for $450?)

Only problem is that it has all sorts growing on it, anemones and some coral. I guess this will all die off in an uncycled tank :/ Could this cause more harm than good? Its still cheaper than buying live rock from the store


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## PuterChickFL (Feb 23, 2010)

I would like to chime in and say thank you also. I'm looking to do a convert on my 75 gallon, and I got a chockfull of info here


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## funlad3 (Oct 9, 2010)

Sorry I missed this post Mbuna...

You've got that list down perfectly! 

As for the water flow, I'd advise at least 20X turnover for any tank with or without soft corals, but 30X for any LPS corals, and at least 40x turnover for SPS corals. You never want the pumps directly blasting coral (generally...), but the more water flow you have circulating near and around the corals, the better. As soon as the coral becomes damaged by water flow, you either have too much, or it needs to be redirected.

Buy whatever live rock you want, there's going to be die off anyways, but with the super nice rock, there's a good chance that a lot of the fauna will survive. 

Good luck, and don't forget to give us pictures!


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

I have movement! Although not in the actual tank 

Setup my RO unit last week and have been producing water. Have about 90 Litres ready to be used. Some of it will be used to clean and rinse the tank down.

The tank has been completely emptied including the sand, just needs a good clean now. 

Equipment has arrived and is still continuing to arrive. Whats arrived so far is;

Vecton 400 - paid £28 for it!
2 square meters of egg crate. No idea why I ordered so much but it was cheap

I'm still waiting for but should arrive this week:

2 x 6k power heads (I have a 3k one already)
Deltec MCE 600 (the newer version) which I paid £100 for second hand
Blue LED lighting for the night lights

I had a great day yesterday. Jumped in the car with the mrs and got ferried around to local reef keepers homes who has some spare rock. Ended up collecting about 50/60 kg of reef bones which I paid £50 for in total and a very nice chap gave me 20 kg of Live rock for nothing! I think I may have to much rock now but better to have more than less and it means I can pick the best ones to use. Going to pick up some salt today from the LFS.

I decided against bleaching the rocks in the tank so the bones are all in buckets with bleach and small power heads. I did this last night so I will empty them and power wash them again and throw them back in the bins with some tap water and de-chlorinator and leave over night.

My target is to get the tanks equipment all setup by this weekend with the tank cleaned and filled with 90L of salted water. That way I can get a base for the scape down and move the Live rock into the tank so I can finish the rest of the scape above the water line which should be easier to do than doing it all under water. I'll then put the sand in before adding the rest of the water.

Plan for the scape is going to be a lagoon type setup with each far side coming towards the front of the tank, with the scape getting higher the further back in the tank it goes. I am going to try and do this with 3 seperate towers (if you know what I mean) which will be connected with mutliple arches and shelfs. The shelves I will just use some pvc piping and the eggrate, for the arches I think I will drill holes and slot piping in them to connect it all. Should look ok once life covers it!

I am going to run the Vecton UV using an AquaOne 1050 which I already have. Working out the output it should work quite well.

Specs for the tank are looking like:

2 x 6k Power heads
1 x 3k Power head for the lower back of the tank to kill deadspots
1 x AquaOne canister (Polishing pad and LR rubble?)
-I make that a total of about 35x my water volume being circulated in the tank
Vecton 400 UV
Deltec MCE 600 Protein skimmer (Run with Rowaphos?)
About 70kg of rock (!)
4 x T5 lighting (2 blue and 2 white)
2 x 50cm LED blue strip bars for the night lights

Hopefully will have some pics in the next fortnight! One thing I am worried about though. I go on holiday for 2 weeks on 6th June. If I setup the tank say by the end of May, am I ok to leave it running whilst I am away? I presume the cycle will be happening at this time? I have someone who is staying in my house and I can get them to keep on top of cleaning the skimmer cup but I think thats all I can get him to do apart from maybe topping up evaporation. But I have few questions about this process.

Do any water changes need to be made during the cycle? Or can I leave it until I get back?

Can I leave the tank cycle with the lights off whilst I am away? 

Thanks!


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## kay-bee (Dec 6, 2006)

Mbuna Keeper said:


> Can I leave the tank cycle with the lights off whilst I am away?


Light will FUEL nuisance algae, cyano and diatoms during the early stages of a newly set up SW tank. I recommend they be kept off until photosynthethic life or fish are introduced. 



Mbuna Keeper said:


> ...I have an opportunity of buying 40kg of establised live rock from a mature tank...Only problem is that it has all sorts growing on it, anemones and some coral...


Do you have photo's of these organisms? If the live rock that you acquired does have photosynthetic coral then lighting may be required.


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

kay-bee said:


> Light will FUEL nuisance algae, cyano and diatoms during the early stages of a newly set up SW tank. I recommend they be kept off until photosynthethic life or fish are introduced.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have photo's of these organisms? If the live rock that you acquired does have photosynthetic coral then lighting may be required.


Thanks Kay-bee.

Ok that lighting thing makes sense and its easier for me to keep them off whilst I am away anyway.

I didn't buy the rock in the end (with the corals and stuff). I ended being given 20kg of Live rock which doesn't appear to have anything growing on it as far as corals, but I have been warned by someone else who also had some rock from the same tank - his was covered in aiptasia once he had it going in his tank. So i think my first life in the tank will be some peppermint shrimps!


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

Update time!

After 3 days of trying, lots of huffing and puffing and a few snaps at the mrs for destroying my concentration with questions like, "what shall I take on holiday" (seriously, I dont care!) I have finally finished the aquascape. The issue I was having was that I was trying to hide the ugly live rock I was given for free. As I pulled the live rock out of the container, I started realising why it was free. 5kg of real live rock and 15kg of heavy ocean rock :/ I am thinking that once the reef bones are seeded, that I will remove the ocean rock and re-scape. Tank looks quite full but there are lots of shelves for future corals and wildlife with a few arches for asthetic pleasure.

I setup the skimmer and the external. The external inflow is currently being sucked through a heater in the tank and the outflow is attached to the UV light. I have some rubble in the external at the moment and some polishing wool, just to clear the tank of any mess. I will be removing the wool in the next few days. Still trying to work out how to use the skimmer. Had it on and working but had the cup to low. Am I supposed to see bubbles in the cup? (Deltec MCE 600)

I added a bottle of safe start as I couldn't find any Dr Timms anywhere. Lights will be sorted when I get back from holiday since I don't need them for the cycle. I am going to go with 2 Actinics and 2 Marine white as the day lights, and I will be ordering some LED strip lights for Dusk and Dawn lighting.

I have done my first water test too;

Salinity: 1.025
PH: 8.2
Amonia: 0.5
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 15
PO4: between 0.25 and 0.50 (Too high!) Rowaphos?

I am a bit worried that the nitrate is at that level already, especially since I am using RO/DI water and I bleached all the rock. Making me think that the Nitrates came in with the live rock. Will add some rowaphos to the cannister once the cycle is complete. Speaking of cycle, should I have the skimmer and UV on during the process? I have about 60l more left to fill so I will use this to get the salt level down to 1.024.



















and one with my old lights. Just wanted to see what it may look like


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## funlad3 (Oct 9, 2010)

That looks great! Are you going to fill up the tank all of the way though? :lol:

Have fun cycling the tank, it's SOO much fun.


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## Mbuna Keeper (Dec 24, 2010)

hehe, yeah tank is full now. Was just waiting for more water to be made up!

I am actually away for 2 weeks to Cyprus from the 6th, so I won't even be about for half the cycle!


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