# Sticky  Seeding live rock (The hobby is going green)



## CollegeReefer

As many of you already know, one of the most expensive parts of building your reef or FOWLR tank is buying the rock, your key filtration. At 5 to 10 US dollars a pound, one can see how mush this adds up when certain types of rock require 1 to 2 pounds per gallon. Live rock prices are continuing to increase with the increasing regulations of what can be harvested from the ocean. But for many hobbyists, money is not issue when building a new system. Actually most will say including myself, that one should not skimp on the new set up unless one wants to experience many problems down the road. 

This idea of getting the best things you can afford is not just for the hobbyist ease, but more specifically is for the well being of the tanks inhabitants. Many on this forum and other forums alike look down on those who continue to have tank inhabitants die. Those same members are outraged when the new hobbyist continues to add new inhabitants to replace the ones that died with little consideration to the effect it causes on the environment. But with more information coming to the average citizen on how we as humans are destroying the environment, we are seeing a growing trend to go “green.” More and more Saltwater enthusiast are thinking green with there new aquariums. Many are putting only coral frags that are prorogated from others tanks which limit the species taken from the ocean. Many are only putting tank bred fish into there aquarium so that the fish are not taken from the wild. These same people are discovering that by using tank bred fish, invertebrates, and prorogated corals, they are having even more success in the hobby because of the lack of certain parasites that are associated with animals taken from the ocean. The next step though is to start using these practices when it comes to Live rock.

There are many companies today that sell live rock that not taken from the reefs. Organizations like Tampa Bay Saltwater Company and Sea life inc. These companies mine rock on land and dump it into a specific area leased by the state for ocean critters to live in. Ultimately they are setting up a new home for fish, inverts, and plants to thrive in. After so many years, they harvest the pile and sell it to you. Though this aquaculture live rock is environmentally sound it can cost more then buying live rock taken from the natural reefs. 

An alternative method that is starting to be used by more and more saltwater enthusiasts is to use dry rock that can either be made or bought which is then seeded with live rock and live sand from an already established system. This method has been proven by many hobbyists. This method of setting up a tank is environmentally sound and very cost effective. This thread will be dedicated those who use dry rock and seed it with live sand and live rock from an already established tank. This thread focus is to turn this hobby green. We want to save and preserve the reefs not destroy them. 

I will be leaving my account and experience of setting up a 75 gallon tank using only 20 pounds of live rock and 50 pounds of dry rock. The 75 gallon tank has been set up for under a month with the live rock in place and has already shown the dry rock getting the beneficial coralline algae. Coralline algae though is not the only thing need to seed a tank. What makes live rock and live sand live are all of the little critters that inhabit the rock and sand. With that said I have ordered 7 pounds of garf grunge to help the seeding process. I have also ordered live sand activator, mud, pods, and other small invertebrates from IPSF.com to aid in the process. I will keep you well informed on how the seeding process goes. 

I will like to note that many have argued that seeding live rock from other tanks is the best, for you get a variety of different species that one wouldn’t find on 1 particular reef. It is my belief and others belief that it you get sand and grunge from others established aquariums, your tank will thrive much better then if you got everything from one place. I apologize for such a long post but I hope you take this thread into consideration when you plan your next reef. Also if you have started your tank using dry rock and seeded it with live rock and live sand, please feel free to share your experience.


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## Fishboy93

Very nice post. I did this as well with my tank with 25lbs of LR and 25lbs of base rock. Have extra if anyones interested. Tampa Bay Saltwater has cooler looking rock IME and have gotten great feedback for "The Package" price aside.


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## CollegeReefer

Wow this thread got stickied!

As I read though my first post I noticed that I had used the term grunge, mud, and live sand. I would like to note that these are all different things that can be used to seed an aquariums sand bed and rock. 

Grunge:

Grunge in my opinion is not the most aesthetically pleasing , but I am one for the fresh sand look. I know that there are many hobbyist out there that like a more rough look in there sand bed. Grunge is a mixture of everything that falls down in curing tanks for rock. It is a more course substrate with lots of small pieces of rocks, shells, coral, mud, and just about anything else that can be found in the reef. Grunge might not look like much, but is full of live. Many micro organisms enjoy the think course substrate. You will often get a wide variety of different beneficial organisms, from bristle worms and mia mia worms, to micro starts, and even a variety of different snails and hermits. You also gain the benefit of getting a variety of different types of coralline algae that makes your reef or FOWLR tank even more diverse. Also within the grunge you will find a Varity of different types of pods that benefit a tank in so many ways. Pods are not just for feeding, but are a great way to keep pest algae in check. 

Mud:

Mud is a little different the grunge. A lot of times mud is actually found in grunge. Mud is pretty much what the name suggests. It is a mixture of small substrate that are full of nutrients that won’t affect your tank in a negative matter. That is because the mud is thriving with micro organisms including several different types of pods that breed and eat the organics found it. One will find that there is so much life in the mud itself. Mud is typically placed into a refugium so that all that live in will not be disturbed. Mud is a breeding ground for many beneficial organisms and bacteria for your tank. 

Live sand:

Live sand is sand from an established aquarium. Depending on the grade of sand will determine the amount of life that is in it. A courser sand will allow beneficial worms, and certain types of snails to breed who like a courser substrate. All sand offers a wide range of beneficial bacteria colonies that break down organics in your tank. Sand is also teaming with specks of different coralline algae that will spread to your rocks and aquarium walls. I would encourage all to share a few cups of sand with each other to make your tank more diverse then before. Every tank is different, because every tank has rock, fish, inverts, and corals from different parts of the world. By exchanging the sand you will find that your diversity in your tank will expand and add even more ways to keep your reef running smoothly.

This is all I have for now, for I have to run to a meeting. I will continue to update this thread as I have time and find new things out.


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## Damon

DOnt let worms affect your sand grade. I have tons of spaghettis in my "sugar sand". They breed anywhere. My ceriths and nassarius snails love it also. Now if I can just keep my blue leg hermits from killing them and stealing shells I'll be ok. I think they are done now though.


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## TheOldSalt

Another trick you can use is to go to your local petshops on "new fish day" and beg for the stuff that drops off of liverocks in transit. The stuff at the bottom of the styrofoam boxes is great stuff indeed.


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## CollegeReefer

The Items I ordered from ipsf.com to seed my tank came. I will take you through my thoughts on the items received.

IPSF sent me the items I ordered via two day air by fed ex. It was shipped from Hawaii, which is where they are located. Package was well packed in an insulated box. I didn’t just order the live sand activator and there mud, but also amphipods, different macros, sand bed clams, and their strombus grazers. I am sad to say though that in my excitement of opening up the box and adding it too the tank, I forgot my camera and did not take any pictures. 

IPSF Live Sand Activator:
Their live sand activator was course substrate that was full of life. I was expecting more of a fine sand, but I didn’t fret after seeing everything in the bag. The bag had about 2 cups of the live sand activator. The bag also had about a half inch of water in it. Pulling the bag out I could see all sorts of things, bristle warms, amphipods, snails, small hermits, and even a bit of macro. Though there wasn’t that much actually sand/substrate in the bag, there was enough other organisms to put a smile on my face.

Wounder Mud:
The wonder mud was also full of live. The bag contained about 2 cups of the mud which was a very fine brownish sand. Though there wasn’t much actually mud in the bag, the movement of all the organisms proved that it was alive. When I pulled out of the bag of wonder mud, the first thing I noticed was all of the snails that were crawling up the bag. I also noticed several small hermits and several different types of worms and pods.

Macro & Amphipods:
Though macro isn’t exactly something someone considers to use to seed a tank, you will be surprised about how much life is in the macro. All of the different pieces of macro I got had amphipods, bristle worms, and even some snails. The Amphipods I bought from ipsf came in a bag with some macro as well. Seeding your tank with Amphipods will help a colony get started. Amphipods are great to have in the tank for they eat all sorts of organics and algae. They are also a great source of food to many fish and inverts in the hobby. 

In the end I was really impressed by IPSF. They really seem to have a firm understanding on what is needed to have a successful tank.


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## CollegeReefer

My Garf grunge from garf.org came today.

I will first like to say that to order from garf is a big pain. They ask you to leave a message with your credit card info and what you want on there “secure” phone line. I personally believe that this is not the best way to run a business that takes orders online. On the site it tells you only how much the clean up crews are and how much the garf grunge is. They don’t tell you the cost of shipping or the cost of their coral frags. I had emailed garf to get more information on their grunge and it took about a week to get an email back from them. However when I did get an email from Leroy, owner and operator of garf, he give me his cell number. Once I got this number I had no troubles getting a hold of him. I ended up ordering 5 pounds of garf grunge and also paid for a membership (I believe in what garf was and still is trying to do for the hobby), which came with an additional 3 pounds of grunge. I did not get any email of when it was shipped even though I was told it would ship Monday. 

I was surprised to see that the garf grunge arrived today in a USPS priority mail flat rate box, which would explain why I didn’t get a tacking number. When I opened the box, there were two bags of the grunge. I was surprised to see that the grunge was not in a insulated box. The grunge however did look exactly what I expected, a mixture of different size substrate, shells, and other things found at the bottom of a tank. The bags containing the grunge had not water in it which concerns me a little bit, but hopefully the moister that that was in the grunge itself would have kept everything alive. When I opened the bags, I really didn’t see much movement, but that really doesn’t mean much for the organisms could have been in the middle of the bag. This grunge did have lots of different types of coralline algae in it, which is what the people at garf pride itself on. I wish I could give you all more information on the grunge, but this is all I really have. I have attached a few pictures of the grunge itself and the tank after adding it. Once my tank clears up I will add some new pictures.

Bags of Garf Grunge









Inside bags of Garf Grunge









After adding Garf Grunge to tank


















Added some to refugium as well


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## Damon

I stickied the thread for many reasons..........

It SHOULD be a boon for the topic of starting a reef tank
Lots of valuable information
Serious posts
Quality comments

All of the above are in essence the same but those are my reasons.


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## CollegeReefer

It has been a while since i posted so i thought i would give you a quick update with pictures too come later. The tank is doing great. There was a mini cycle associated with the the adding of the garf grunge from garf and the livesand and mud from ispf. Though i was expecting this mini cycle to happen it caught me by surprised. As many of you know this tank is the tank i am taking care for school, and seeing i am over a hundred miles away because of summer vacation i am only able to get up to school once a week. My first week back to the tank i was in shock for the whole tank was brown with a major diotom bloom. I cleaned the glass off and left for another week. When i came back the next week all was clear and all levels are once again at zero. The last couple times i have been back i have been amazed with all of the little critters and corline algae growth happening. Much more life then i ever saw before i added the grunge and mud. There are even a few things i saw that i have yet to indentify. There are all sorts of worms, pods, even micro seastars. I Will try to post pics in the next week or two.


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## CollegeReefer

It has been about 4 months and the rock is starting to really look good. There are also many new inverts i have found including a brittle sea star and and unknown black snail. Here are some pics of the tank now.





































As you can see there is much more color to the rock. I am very pleased with going this route and plan on only useing dry rock unless a fellow hobbiest sells liverock from there system. This is a cheaper alternitve to buying harvested liverock from the wild and is better for the depleteing reefs


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## s13

Is that garf grunge stuff just like small chips off of live rock and whatever else? I end up getting about 3-4 lbs from that whenever I get a bag of free liverock rubble from he LFS. the Stuff stinks so bad! If so, maybe I can help some fellow reefers out!


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## TheOldSalt

Maybe you can at that. I need some, and you happen to be pretty close to me.


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## CollegeReefer

Yup that is all it is. Actually from my reading, for those who don't want to spend the money to buy stuff like garf grunge, apparently lfs will just give away all of the crap on the bottom of there live rock curing tank and or any stuff left in the box that the live rock comes in. Many people including myself at one point in time would just throw away all of the crap sitting in the bottom of the box, but most of time that has some of the most benefical stuff in it for your tank.


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## s13

TOS- I can get you a bag of it next time water world orders more live rock. I can just put in a gallon size bag with some water in it if that is fine. Let me know when you want it and I can see when I can get some.


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## TheOldSalt

Kewl, thanks!


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## R/CBOONE72

I am doing this only a little different, I have a smaller tank and got a three pound chunk of figi live rock and was debating on what to as the LFS had no more rock for awhile so I ordered dry rock from marco rocks, 25lbs. Three months in on a little peice of live rock and a rock n sand only tank im getting some dark green, pink, and purple blotching on my rocks. Not nearly as great of a success story as others but im fine with it. Im saving money for awhile anyways to many many things to my tank and upgrade to a larger system so it has lots of time to change.


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## Mbuna Keeper

This is amazing! Exactly the info I need.


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## arch aquatics

i will be setting up my personal tank this summer.

It is a 90 gallon double internal over flow with a built in fuge and flexible returns.

I still have to figure out what tank will fit under it and turn it into a sump/bangaii breeding area.

I will be making all of my own rock and will make a how to thread regarding it


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## funlad3

I think that the largest tank you can easily fit under a 48"x18" tank is 45 gallon (36x"12"x23"). Depending on your stand manufacturer, you might be able to squeeze another 75 or 90 gallon in there!


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## mike88

*Very Helpful Thread*

I am new to this Forum but have some experience keeping aquariums. As I am in the military I set up a new tank everytime I move and then sell it off when I move again. I just began a 50 Gallon Saltwater and was about to purchase 40 pounds of live rock, I read this thread and decided to use the ideas in this thread and instead purchased 40 pounds of dry rock and 15 pounds of live rock. I saved about $125 and am very excited to see how it turns out. Bottom line- thanks for the advice!


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## funlad3

Great call, welcome to the forum, and thanks for your service! If you have any questions, we'll help you out.


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## mike88

funlad3 said:


> Great call, welcome to the forum, and thanks for your service! If you have any questions, we'll help you out.


actually i do have a question. I have had the live rock in the tank for about 4 days now, my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels are currently at 0 and there was not a cycle when i added the live rock. do you think that the live rock was just exceptionally healthy and did not have a lot of die off in transport? or do you think that the live sand i added 2 weeks ago was active enough to prevent a cycle? Either way i am torn between starting a cycle with shrimp or calling it good and adding a few inverts. your opinion?


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## funlad3

If your skimmer is producing anything yet, just pour the skimmate back into the tank. If it cycles through within a day, you can add your cleanup crew. Two or three weeks after that, you'll be ready to add your first fish, which will have hopefully been quarantined.


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## simonssymfony

hello..i also have been buying my live rock from other various places..i have 4 saltwater tanks and buy enough to put a little in each tank..i have numerous varieties of live rock ..was wondering if theres a site you or anyone may have a link to so i can identify my various rocks...i know for sure i have ..
figi
nano reef
dinosaur egg rock (http://phishybusiness.com/live-rock/dinosaur-egg-live-rock.html)


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## Manny

Greta post guys. I actually just made some dry rock and it is looking pretty good. I am curing it right now but can't wait to see what it looks like when I throw it in my tanks and it gets so full of life and color. I will keep you guys posted with pictures.


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## Manny

AFter reading your post, I immediately ordered the live sand activator from IPSF.com. I am excited for it to get here. And as stated in my previous post, here is the link to the pictures of my dry rock I made. I have it under beginning saltwater.http://www.fishforums.com/forum/beginner-saltwater/47233-diy-live-rock-dry-rock.html
Let me know what you guys think of it please.


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