# ammonia remains high



## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

Ive cycled my tank and have had a few fish in it to see how they would do and so far so good. I did a test after about a week and the ammonia was way up. 

i plan to do 50% water changes until it is down. Is this a safe practice? 

I have been doing this for the past 2 days and havent noticed much difference.

For the past 3 days
day 1: 20% change.....readings seemed about the same
day 2: 50% change ....readings seemed a bit lower but not where i need them
day 3: 50% change....i just checked the water and it is still around 2.0 using my master test kit. 

SHould i just keep doing that every single day?

Both days ive done the 50% change i have also added in the recommended amount of the stress coat product to eliminate any clorhine in the tap water.

Any other suggestions? My nitrates and nitrites and 0. Every other test seems to turn out normal other than my water hardness (which is a bit high) and my PH (which is a bit high).

The fish seem to be doing well although they cant talk to tell me how they are doing....they all seem to be swimming around just fine with no signs or abnormalities. I just have a feeling that the ammonia should be down at zero which in yellow in my test kit. Right now it is a middle green which is middle to high range around 2.0.

I tested my tap water striaght from the tap and it came out a perfect 0. Yellow as can be.

Looking for suggestions


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

WEll....my ammonia is still high.......around 4 or 5ppm. Ive done anywhere from 20 - 50% water changes regularly....that didnt help. Ive put a good handfull of java moss in the tank from a cycled system for a week....that didnt do anything. I continue to have high ammonia....no nitrates....no nitrites. Ive got one feeder GF in there, 3 or 4 white clouds, 1 small tiger barb, 1 small sword tail. They all seem to be doing fine.....
Ive been feeding them lightly every other day and they eat normally. Nothing has died yet. It has been a few weeks. Im at a loss on how to bring down the ammonia levels and start building some healthy bacteria....


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Have you done anything to jumpstart a cycle? Bio-Spira? Fish food? Cycle? Prawn?


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

i started to get discouraged and used tetra safe start but that didnt do anything


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

well...i just checked it again and it looks to be up near 8ppm now. Looks like it is getting worse....

i guess i can kiss these fish goodbye...

i dont know if it is trying to spike and then will build nitrates and i keep doing water changes before it gets a chance or what....


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

How many fish have you got in there?

Are you using a dechlorinator? If not, chlorine will instantly kill the bacteria in the Safe Start making it useless.


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

yes i have put in stress coat initally and after water changes which claims to clear the chlorine.

Ive got 6 or 7 small fish in there now.....Ive got one feeder GF in there, 3 or 4 white clouds, 1 small tiger barb, 1 small sword tail. They all seem to be doing fine..... they eat...and ive been feeding them lightly (every other day)

Im sure they are suffering from the ammonia levels


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

sc:

This is really weird as with the 50% daily WC's and your feeding protocol you should not be experiencing this.

Have you considered double dosing with *Seachem Prime* when you do a 50% WC?

This question may sound real silly but have you checked you filtration equipment for functioning and the presence of biological filtration media in the equipment?

TR


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

the filter is fine. It is operating properly.

i did the 50% water changes for 3 to 4 days in a row and didnt see much of a change so i stopped altogether. I thought it might be better to wait and see if it spikes on its own and comes back down. Nothing thus far. Do you think i should continue the water changes for more than 4 days....?? I can add some seachem prime and see if that helps but im not holding out much hope.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Have you continued adding Safe Start? I would do so, even though it is a bit pricey.

I have had good luck with Prime when I have had to set up a new tank in a rush and needed a bacterial boost.


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

well i stopped off and got some PRIME. I just did a 50% water change and added that stuff in. Im going to wait about an hour before testing but im betting it wont zero the ammonia. Id be surprised if it was half (around 2ppm) which it should be considering my tap water is 0 and i was reading around 4 if im reading the cards right from my API master kit. 

I dont know if i should keep changing the water every day...or more than once per day....or what.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

The thing with new cycles is patience, the ammonia levels must sky rocket, we can only reduce it to lessen the stress on the fish. What normally kills off fish during the cycle is the Nitrites, the fish are already weakened by the ammonia, and cant take step 2. So just keep up what your doing, keeping it as low as you are. You do not want it to go to zero until the Nitrites are ended by the Nitrates. I know its hard, but patience pays off.


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

well...at this point it appears to be between the 2.0 green and the 4.0 green color. Safe to say its a 3ppm right now. 

I show no nitrates or nitrites. How often should i be checking for those? Every day? Every week? What is the standard rule for those. The only thing ive been monitoring every day has been the ammonia because i knew it was getting higher


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

so should i keep changing daily to get it lower than the 3ppm or is that managable at that level to actually build the proper bacteria? How often should i do water changes and where should i run the ppm to be safe?


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## justintrask (Jun 29, 2008)

what size tank is this? i recommend keeping the ammonia around 3, but it's alright if it gets higher. losing fish, unfortunately, happens during the cycle sometimes. by doing these constant water changes, you're not giving the tank enough time to break the ammonia down into nitrites and start the cycle


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

scale said:


> I show no nitrates or nitrites.


sc: this one is getting weirder by the post.

Seachem Prime obviously detoxifies chlorine and chloramine in the tap water.

It also converts ammonia into nitrites and nitrites into nitrates (as best as I can tell from the limited information in the literature as the constituents of Prime and similar products appears to be highly proprietary).

Hence I now believe that dosing with Prime for 150% of your tank volume when you do your daily 50% WC's (which answers a question which you asked in a previous post).

The detoxification and conversions referenced above, I believe, occur via oxidation and hence if significant agitation of the water's surface is not present in the tank you should consider adding an air stone and an air pump in order to implement this condition and thereby attain oxygen saturation in your tank water.




scale said:


> How often should i be checking for those? Every day? Every week? What is the standard rule for those. The only thing ive been monitoring every day has been the ammonia because i knew it was getting higher


To my knowledge no real standard exists for such an aberrant condition but I believe that every day before each WC and ammonia before and after each WC until this gets under control. After three or four days we should be able to determine "what in the world is going on here".

I am beginning to wonder if there is something wrong with your test kit and if you need to purchase a liquid test kit?

TR


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

ya this is weird. I agree. The test kit is a liquid kit. It is the master test kit from Aquarium Pharm. 

Anyway...im going to attemt to keep the amonia at 2 -3 through water changes and prime and see what happens.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

as i have always said...the more you screw around with your tank;the more problems you will create for yourself.
you said that your fish are fine....then your tank is fine.relax.quit killing your cycle with all the water changes.


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## smark (Dec 2, 2008)

If you’re worried about the fish during the cycle try putting you fish into a large bucket or container and do large water changes in there. Leave your fish tank alone so that the cycle will go faster. The less you can do water changes in your tank the sooner it will happen. Just a thought. 
smark~


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

ya.....im thinking of the bucket method to see if that helps 

i just thought it was weird to sit for so long with the ammonia that high and no change in activity. It is a 29 gallon tank so i guess these things take time. 

i figure if the tank was hosed totally my fish would be dying all over the place or at the very least showing signs of suffocation or loss of appetite but so far so good. 

Thanks for the help everyone !


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

*good news*

i have changes!

i have amonnia down to about 1ppm. I show Nitrates of about 5ppm and i show nitrites about 1ppm

What do i do now? 50% water change? I know i want to get all 3 down but i dont want to destroy the cycle


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

scale said:


> i have ammonia down to about 1ppm. I show Nitrates of about 5ppm and i show nitrites about 1ppm


sc: TG: you are back into a typical cycle!!!, are probably at the apex and headed into the downward leg.

Without future aberrations you should be within a couple of weeks of cycling.




scale said:


> What do i do now? 50% water change?


If the readings were taken before the WC then no.

This week I believe that performing like 25% WC's every other day would be appropriate (and this protocol is only due the h......l which you have had).

Subsequent to this week you should be able to go 25% WC's weekly.




scale said:


> I know i want to get *all 3* down but i dont want to destroy the cycle


*No on two items.*

Subsequent to cycling you should observe zero ammonia and nitrites.

Nitrates (and I am assuming that your tank will be planted as I do not remember asking):

Most folks recommend 15ppm to 20ppm.

I attempt to maintain 5ppm to 10ppm.


One last item: I did not respond to:


lohachata said:


> as i have always said...the more you screw around with your tank;the more problems you will create for yourself.
> you said that your fish are fine....then your tank is fine.relax.quit killing your cycle with all the water changes.


but once your micro ecosystem achieves a uniform steady state condition with the 25% weekly WC's I am in absolute agreement with loha. (Please note that loha has a ton of experience and can "pull off" conditions based on his experience and atypical methods that us normal fish keepers cannot even envision.)

TR


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Step 1: Relax.
Step 2: Do some small water changes, 10% daily, until all but nitrates reads zero.

Congratulations, you're in the tail end of a cycle.


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

fish update
well as of this morning this before i tested the fish seemed to be much more active. Prior...they were lazy and looked bored. After todays reading they have been much more active at all levels of the tank. They seem happier. THey chase either other a bit but not in an agressive way and then they trade up and the other chases the chased. They are eating good. I did a 10% change tonight and will do another in a couple of days and continue that until my nitrites are back to 0. 

So far so good.


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

ok...

i just checked my water again

my nitrates are between 1 and 5 (moving from yellow to a steady orangish tint)
my nitrites are up around 10 (dark purple)

Should i be doing larger changes than 10% every other day?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't think putting the fish in a bucket will help either the cycle or the fish. I agree with Loha, that if the fish aren't in distress, don't do anything to put them there, such as moving them to an unheated, unfilled bucket. But I see nothing wrong with large water changes as long as the new water is dechlored and the same temp, pH, etc. as the tank. The larger you last water change, the safer another large change is. 

I usually recommend keeping ammonia and nitrite in the "safe" range no matter how large a water change you need to do or you risk poisoning the fish. But Prime is great, go ahead and use a 4X dose during cycling. If your fish aren't dying despite high readings, Prime is why. 



> It also converts ammonia into nitrites and nitrites into nitrate


 I don't think this is true. Prime claims to "detoxify" ammonia, nitrite and nitrate while leaving them available to biological filtration. I think it does this by attaching another molecule to these things in a "complex". When dosed with Prime, ammonia disappears on some brands of test kits, but not on others. Same with nitrite. Nitrate levels don't change. They would go up if the Prime were converting the ammonia into nitrate.


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## scale (Feb 1, 2009)

so....i have prime in the tank......
is that why my readings are like this ?

Im confused. SHould i do a large change or not? Let it ride with high nitrites?


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

scale said:


> Im confused. SHould i do a large change or not? Let it ride with high nitrites?


sc: this question was answered in my previous post.

TR


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

With Prime, it is ok to let nitrite and ammonia go above the "safe" level for fish. However, if you let either level get too high, it will kill off your filter bacteria and you will have to start over. I don't know exactly what those numbers are. I do remember on another post that 5 ppm of ammonia had completely stopped a cycle. So don't panic, but don't skimp on the water changes either. And go easy on the feedings.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

My personal belief is that during initial cycling, if you are doing it in the old fashioned method (you are), it is best to do near-constant small water changes. (Daily)

I am very skeptical of any chemical additive that claims to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. I do believe in and have had success with bacteria products that are intended to do this. I have used Stability and Bio-Spira with much success.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels


 From the SeaChem Website. I'd bet the "detoxifying heavy metals" part is EDTA.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

emc7 said:


> From the SeaChem Website. I'd bet the "detoxifying heavy metals" part is EDTA.


*Yep!!!*

TR


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

EDTA the chelation agent? Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

yep, its fish-safe and in many water conditioners. awesome molecule to model


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