# Anyone have any experience/suggestions with SeaChem's De*Nitrate?



## AquariumTech (Oct 12, 2010)

If you do let me know how if worked and how you used it. Really trying to figure out an easy and cost effective way to implement in to my tanks but the flow needs to but 50 gallons per hour or under, and pretty much no filter I have does that besides the fluval C series, and im just talking about the small trickle chamber in it. Any suggestions or input would be nice. Thanks.


----------



## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

First off why do you want to denitrate? 

I surely don't think your nitrate levels are as high as mine.....


----------



## AquariumTech (Oct 12, 2010)

Maybe not but I am some what (or at least think so) of a pet pamperer, and I really like my water perfect for my fishes! Also, why not? Fish and myself can both appreciate perfect water.


----------



## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

Buy them some good frozen or live food instead. You seem to think fish are bothered by nitrates, when in reality most are not. If you you really care about your nitrate levels use live plants. This however puts you in a bind since live plants eat nitrates they will reduce the levels. However if they run out of nitrate you get very unhappy plants. Simplest method would be more frequent or larger water changes. 

Trust me I don't have perfect water and could honestly care less about that. What I do care is that the fish stay healthy and regularly spawn to show me they are satisfied with their environment. If fish can spawn in a heavily stocked tank with 40ppm of nitrate, that is in a noisy and busy daycare I don't think you need to get fancy with your nitrate removal.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

This is another product that seems to be made for salt-water and is marketed to fresh-water as an after thought. e-mail SeaChem and see how they suggest you use it. I think its intended for sumps. 

I'm not opposed to new technologies on principle, but every thing can have unintended consequences (starved live plants are a good example). I usual only recommend things I've tried myself. 

Some fish (Mbuna) seem almost immune to nitrate and you can see seemingly healthy fish in tanks with no water changes for years. Others seem hyper-sensitive. I know people who do daily 40% water changes in their discus tanks. Nitrate is not the only reason, but is one of them. Some people think nitrate contributes to hole-in-the-head in S. Americans. In soft water, high nitrates can drop your pH. 

In general, water changes will control every pollutant. If you control nitrate by other means, you'll have to watch for other troubles.


----------



## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

Why would high nitrates lower pH? It can't be nitrate itself as NO3-. Its not acidic, so should not affect pH. It has to change in some manner to effect pH. My only thinking is that in solution NO3- could become HNO3. Why exactly it would want to do that IDK. NO3- is pretty stable and thus not very reactive... Though of the top of my head it would form at lower pH more then it would form at high pH... 

Water changes can only control so called pollutants down to the levels in the source water you use. My well for example gives me 20ppm of nitrate so in theory I can't go below that in the tanks using this water. Plants of course are an exception and can lower nitrates down to about 10ppm, at which point they generally start suffering from a lack of nitrate. I stock heavily enough that despite high tech tanks with almost silly plant growth nitrate still increases in some or holds stable to the tap. I fertilize with everything but nitrates too, but I have them on hand if they are ever needed.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The transformation of ammonia or ammonium (NH3 or NH4+) to NO2- and NO3- requires oxygen. I assume the oxygen comes from water and also creates H3O+ as a byproduct. nitrate ions are not acid, but nitrate is the conjugate base of nitric acid which is fairly strong. The nitrate is not being produced with K+ or Na+ as you would get if you just dissolved a neutral nitrate salt in water. So when nitrate is created, either the water gets more acidic, or some "buffering capacity" is used up. Something like carbonate becoming bicarbonate. While it can take years of no water changes to use up all the "buffering capacity" of really hard water, you can see a drop in pH in soft water much more quickly. Occasionally, you will read about a "pH crash" in which a neglected tank suddenly went from fine to deadly with a low pH. This is what happens once the "buffering capacity" is used up and any additional H+ produced goes into the water.

So adding a nitrate salt to feed your plants won't affect your pH, but not doing water changes will (eventually).

It is suggested that nitrate is more dangerous to fish that need a lot of oxygen, such as those from fast or cold waters or young fry.

My understanding is that products like denitrate provide a home for anaerobic (air-less) bacteria to reduce the NO3- to N2. Since this would remove protons (to make water), the process should increase pH.
When used in high-flow, the stuff just acts as normal ammonia-to-nitrate media as the oxygen gets in everywhere.

Anaerobic bacteria in freshwater aquariums was something I was taught to avoid. The stinky, uncleaned, off-for-a-week canister filter and the dreaded "anaerobic pockets" in dense, too-deep substrate were both supposed to have the potential to kill fish with toxic hydrogen sulfide gas and dangerous bacteria.

There a bunch of new products to control nitrate. The "never do a water change again" claims have me more than a bit skeptical. Most of these things come from waste-water treatment plant technology and do get rid of organic waste. But most of them don't tell you the process. Some of them run the cycle backwards: nitrate-nitrite-ammonia-nitrogen. Works great in an empty tank. But use it in a dirty tank with high nitrate and the ammonia level will briefly be high enough to kill you normal (ammonia-nitrate) bacteria and potentially your fish as well. 

If anyone is successful with an anti-nitrate product, I'd like to hear your experiences.

IMO plants are a safer way to control nitrates.


----------



## AquariumTech (Oct 12, 2010)

Emc, I guess you havent used it yet? I figured it was marketed for saltwater sumps, just by the flow (like you mentioned is needed for the anaerobic bacteria; or I mean the lack of flow through the media) it requires and because its easier to remove nitrate from saltwater rather than freshwater do to generally less oxygen and other factors. Also you pretty much hit it right on the head what I was going to say.

Also I have to say I have had success in removing nitrates from my freshwater tanks with SeaChems "Purigen" and API's Nitra-Zorb. It was VERY CLEAR, that they had effected my nitrate levels in the tanks I had used them. I didnt change anything on any of tanks I used them on other than adding the product. They alone lowered my nitrate levels, by about 10 and 20 ppm. The difference is that the bag of Nitra-Zorb I had and the Purigen were meant for different tank sizes. Either way at that point I started testing my water daily so I would see any changes immediately, not only that, but for the years Ive been doing weekly-daily tests I record the results and each tank has its own binder and I make notes of anything I change that day so I can see any cause and effect for my own study and knowledge. If you really are interested I can give you exact numbers and other specs.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

no I haven't tried it. I have tried nitrasorb and purigen in a few tanks that were really nasty. They seemed to work, but I don't trust my nitrate kit, I need a new one. Both are reusable with "recharging", so there isn't an ongoing expense like the weekly water add-ins.


----------



## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

I won't use things such as purigen or nitrazorb as they generally absorb ammonia and other factors as well. It is consuming part of your bioload. This is a big issue for me as if you use enough of these products you tank can literally become dependent on them. They are not solutions to be because they technically reduce the tanks biological bacteria. This IMO lowers the stability of the tank since it is less able to deal with problems if they do arise. For example if you run a tank with a bunch of purigen and keep up with recharging, then suddenly stop recharging the tank could do a mini cycle.

Nitrate kits in this hobby are almost crap. I know I get 20ppm out of tap because of well water lab tests. If you visit any of the planted tank forums they don't give a lot of merit to NO3 tests if the test kit is no calibrated. Out of all 3 tanks I have I do maybe 6 NO3 tests a year in total for all my tank. Some have never had nitrate tested and I could care less about that.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

My water is so soft, I can guess the nitrate # from the pH. I used to test, but lately have decided that if I have time to test I have time to change water and "just do it". 

Every test should have a reference sample to let you "test the test". If you can't calibrate at least one point, you are just guessing. I gather if you don't shake the liquid reagents well enough once, you can get an erroneous reading ever after. And the tests with dry powders get caked if they are old. 

I really appreciate people who do test and keep logs. Its the way it should be done. As usual, do as I say, not as I do.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I appreciate every tool in the arsenal. There are times when a tank is getting foul, but I'm headed out of town. Its nice to throw in Purigen, Prime, and buffers and worry about it when I get back. In general,though, I'm with you, Mikaila. Its cheaper and easier to tend tanks "the old-fashioned way" . If you use something like that, you'd need to keep a calender and recharge on schedule or risk a sudden change in water quality.


----------



## AquariumTech (Oct 12, 2010)

In my tanks I dont really have any parameter problems I usually only recharge them like once every so often. I dont care to much because my Nitrites and Ammonia are always at zero anyways even if I take them out. I havent seen a spike in really any parameter when I take them out or let them sit there for long periods of time. 

On that other note about recording the results I didnt think to many people did it anyways, I am like the only person locally I know that really does it. I like being able to read data and make conclusions, theories, and perhaps even laws about correlations, between tank events and parameters; basically understanding cause and effect.


----------

