# Need some advice and help with deficiency



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Every now and then I seem to start battling the same problem: folded leaf edges, yellowing/dying, needle holes.
Tank info/dosing regiment:
Eco complete substrate, about 2-3. years old
20 gallon with a Tetra Whisper PF-40
8 neon tetra, 1 female guppy and a bunch of snails and red cherry shrimp
10-watt light bulb (I figured this would work just fine since all my plants are low-light plants)
I use Flourish, Excel, and Potassium.
40% PWC every other week or roughly 20% weekly PWC.
I could use some help ID-ing my plants. I have Java Fern and a bunch of crypts is all I know. All low-light.
At water change
1.5ml Flourish
5ml Flourish Excel
2.5-3ml Flourish Potassium

Every other day I dose 2ml Flourish Excel
Mid-week I dose 1.5 Flourish and 2.5-3ml Potassium and I sometimes throw in 1-2ml of Seachem PRIME to make sure I neutralize any trace amounts of ammonia.
I have not been able to successfully dose Phosphorous. The lowest dose has managed to either stress my fish or kill my inverts. The first time I tried dosing 1ml I wiped out ALL my inverts overnight. Shrimp, snails, all killed. I will re-check but last I looked at my phosphate levels they were anywhere between 0.5 and 1ppm naturally, without any dosing.
I do not dose nitrogen since my cycle seems to maintain it somewhere around 20ppm at water change. I will re-check this also to make 110% sure.
I used to dose 0.5ml of Superthrive at water change. This has done wonders at plant propagation, root vigor and growth. I have since stopped since I am no longer looking to obtain any of the benefits but every now and then I will still throw in 6-8 drops at water change. It seems to have had absolutely no adverse effects on the inhabitants.

My dillema is trying to balance the right dosing to benefit the plants and without killing my red cherry shrimp in there and also some ghost shrimp. I have had cherry shrimp deaths that I have attributed to the shock of acclimation/transfer. Out of the 10 I originally purchased, 4 have died. I have also observed deaths amongst ghost shrimp juvies which I cannot attribute to anything else but potentially fertilizer toxicity or possibly trace amounts of ammonia due to me possibly overfeeding? So far I have not had any noticeable deaths amongst cherry red shrimp juvies, which I have a ton of. My goal is to have a sustainable population of shrimp with no more premature deaths, in a tank with lush plants.

So what are the plant experts thinking on this one? Specifically, what I am trying to figure out is what deficiency I am dealing with regarding the older leaves. Like I said, I seem to have a very well and strong developed root system. The stems are also as hard as ever.

Here is a picture which shows very well what I am talking about.
Please note that this picture is quite old, my tank now looks like a jungle but some leaves still show those signs of deficiency.









Full album here
http://picasaweb.google.com/fishbon3/20gFreshwater


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## Brontegirl (May 10, 2010)

The lighting you mentioned equals 0.5 watt per gallon. That is extremely low light. I would suggest upgrading your lighting so you get to around 1-1.5 watts per gallon. A cheap option is to get a hinged glass top and add another light strip. You'd have to move one light strip to open the hinge. I did that with one of my previous tanks and It wasn't a big deal. It actually helped family members NOT feed my fish. You might also consider a double light strip.

Another piece of lighting advice. Plants need about 8-10 hours of adequate light wattage. Keeping the lights on longer when your lighting is inadequate doesn't work. 

All those tests you mention seem very complex. It seems like there are a lot of adjustments in your tank. Those fluctuations can cause plants to wilt and yellow. As part of normal growing, plants get withered or develop limp leaves. Prune those off when you see them. No one has a planted aquarium and never sees wilted leaves. If the plant is developing new leaves, you are doing fine. 

I suggest that you stop making chemical adjustments. Try increasing your lighting a bit and you should see some improvement. HTH


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Thanks for chiming in.
I sincerely doubt it is due to inadequate lighting and here is why. I have not observed any discernable difference between when I had the same lighting in a 10 gallon tank which equaled 1 watt per gallon and now that I have transferred to a 20 gallon. Also, I thought low light plants were all about doing fine in low light. All I’ve got is java fern and crypts. The plants have vigorous growth, heck I even end up having to prune them every 6 months or so because the tank turns into a jungle. But my problem is having the plants maintain their nice foliage. All the leaves that encounter problems are old leaves, not new leaves. The new leaves come out nice and deep green, no curling.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not being stubborn about anything, I am open to any well reasoned argument.

I am not sure what you are referring to when you said “chemical adjustments”. To me chemical adjustments mean trying to mess with the pH. What I outlined is my fertilizing dosing regimen which I keep fairly steady. If you are talking about testing the water, it is not rocket science and every aquarium hobbyist should do it to ensure optimal water parameters. I have stopped dosing Superthrive because it is not needed anymore.

I will post an updated picture later today, you will see the insane amount of growth I have had since posting the last one.

The picture above is from August 2009 after a fresh pruning. Here is one from September.









And here is another one from October.









Had I had no invertebrates in the tank, I would have started throwing nutrients at the problem. Iron, boron, etc. but since I don't want to end up wiping them out again, I am trying to aproach the problem as delicate and precise as possible.


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## Mikaila31 (Nov 29, 2009)

Up your traces. You may want to look into dry ferts someday. I use to dose about the same stuff and its quite expensive compared to dry dosing. But as far as your problems try doubling the amount of flourish you use. Its odd that phos effected the fish and shrimp. I have not used sechems, but did use kents phos+ for a while with no effects on fish or shrimp. I switched to KH2PO4 now.

But yeah normally I just throw nutrients at the issue, my cherry shrimp never seem to mind my EI ferts.


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## Brontegirl (May 10, 2010)

Another thought. Is your tank a 20 long or 20 tall? I couldn't tell from the pic. If it is a 20 tall, you will need more wattage just because of the increased depth. 

By chemical adjustments I mean the fertz. You seem to be adding them quite often. I tend to be more hands-off with mine. It is possible to over fertilize imho. I'm an avid gardener and with terrestrial plants, I've seen container plants get ruined with overly aggressive fertilizing. An aquarium is even a more enclosed environment. Any fertilizer use is cumulative. Unused fertilizer will just accumulate. More is not better. That's not just for your aquarium shrimp but your plants as well. 

I like your plant setup. What I see is that your plant in the center seems to have fewer leaves. Are new leaves coming in at all? I have seen many plants (both aquarium plants and house plants) go through a strange stage where you think they are dying and then a sudden surge in health and growth. It seems to be a cyclical thing. I hope you find an answer for your tank.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I gotta admit I am dosing half the recommended Fluorish (trace). I'll try to bump that up and see what happens.
The tank is a standard 20g tank, not tall or wide. 24" x 12" x 16". Or maybe that is considered tall, I always thought the tall has a smaller footprint.
Here is a picture of the tank as of this morning. You can kinda tell some leaves are folded.
Brontegirl, you do bring up a very good point with overfertilization. I will first try to bump up the trace and if I see it has no change or negative change, then I should know I have to go the other direction 

That clump of java fern on the left is free floating, I gotta donate it one of these days to a local.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

24" x 12" is considered a 20 High or 20H to distinguish it from the 30" x 12" 20 long or 20L. Both are so common, I don't know which is considered "standard"/ I have seen a 20 "tall" or maybe "extra-high" XH that is 10" x 20" like 2 10 gallons stacked vertically. 

I don't know enough about plants to really help. The thing I got from talks is that when you think something is out of balance, you do a massive water change and "start fresh" with a hopefully well-balanced set of ferts.


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