# Petco Employee: "Don't worry about pH."



## Maine_Fish (Apr 7, 2012)

While at a local Petco today, I observed as a gentleman purchased a few Bala Sharks. He told the employee waiting on him that his previous attempt at keeping Bala Sharks resulted in dead fish...and that he wanted to try it again. The customer mentioned that his pH was low. The employee promptly told the man "Don't worry about pH, what you really need to watch is your ammonia."

I was so tempted to interrupt and ask how low his pH was and how he checked it--which should have been the employee's response, in my opinion. 

Bala Sharks are tough fish that can probably withstand a wide pH range. Perhaps it wasn't the pH that resulted in their death. But, I was baffled by the thought of a customer basically being told that pH was not really important.

I see this kind of stuff all the time. 

I once watched (at another Petco) as an excited family spent hundreds of dollars on their first tank...a full 55 gallon setup. Before leaving the store, the salesperson that sold them the setup also sold them several bags of fish to put in the tank when they got home. No cycling. Just throw them in there. I have little doubt that most of those fish met an untimely death.

At another store, a young couple came in looking for fish to put in a 5 gallon tank for their daughter. They decided to purchase a bunch of comet goldfish. Not only did the employee waiting on them encourage the comet purchase, but when asked about filtration told the couple that "goldfish don't need filters...just change the water every couple weeks." Prediction: those fish will die.

I'm just curious...have you ever intervened when you saw somebody getting bad fish keeping advice? Any stories you can share?


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2012)

No stories to share that I can remember. But a pH drop doesn't kill fish as fast as an ammonia or nitrite spike will. Although a drastic pH drop could send the fish into shock and therefore they die from the shock.

Goldfish for a 5 gallon tank is definitely not a good thing at all. They will definitely outgrow that tank really quick. They will become stunted.

That employee needs to reevaluate his knowledge about fish. An uncycled tank will kill many fish. Many fish need an established tank in order to not get sick and die. Clown loaches need an established tank in order to thrive.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

HEY !!!!! watch it there ; i am a Petco employee...lol
actually i just started yesterday.....amazed at how much emphasis is put on routines that just aren't practical.....and at how little some of the "Aquatic Specialists" actually know about fishkeeping...kind of sad...


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2012)

lohachata: I don't think that Maine_Fish was just referring to some Petco employees. Some petco and petsmart employees truly don't know about fish and their care. I am really sure that you know your stuff loha, because you are knowledgeable with fish and their care.


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## hXcChic22 (Dec 26, 2009)

:lol: so I guess this is a bad time to mention that we don't monitor our pH?


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

I don't think it's always Petco or Petsmart in general. I've seen it happen in Walmart and other stores as well. There are some good Petco/Petsmart with staff knowledgeable to fishkeeping.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

OMG Loha- you got a job in a mainstream place. (If you are indeed not kidding). You can imagine where my mind has gone with that information


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Actually, I'm with the first guy. We get newbs on here all the time that are testing pH hourly and putting in drops of pH UP & down. They assume its important because the stuff came in there tank kit and a sign in the store said "community fish pH 7". They also feed the fish every hour when they do the pH test. The pH test reads "yellow" which can be anything from 0 to 6.5. The real reason it was in the kit because it was cheap and no one was buying them. The fish die of ammonia poisoning within the week and the buyer assumes it was pH. 

Yes, pH matters but you need to get a new tank owner laser-focused on ammonia and latter nitrite. Distractions lead to dead fish

The second case is just profiteering. The store knows if you leave, you may go somewhere else. They want to get all your money upfront before you either discover online supplier and fish clubs or kill off you fish and put the tank in the storage unit. They give a little packet of bacteria and hope for the best. After the first fish dies, this is where we get most of our new members as smart people decide to ask for help. Many stores will punish or fire employees who try to avoid selling fish right away.

The third case is just ignorance. This is the way the seller had fish as a kid and he never bothered to learn anything about fish even though giving advice is part of his job. This is the quality of minimum wage labor. Yes, there are people even in the worst places who know and care about fish, but they leaned on there own and weren't trained by the chain. 

I just stay mostly out of stores except for the few that have my fish club friends working there. 

I would like to see a culture of responsibility take hold. You can't legislate decent care, you get stupid laws like you can't sell fish to a 14 year-old or you can't buy a bowl or a tank with a clear bottom. Nothing that would actually help fish.


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## Maine_Fish (Apr 7, 2012)

emc7 said:


> Actually, I'm with the first guy. We get newbs on here all the time that are testing pH hourly and putting in drops of pH UP & down. They assume its important because the stuff came in there tank kit and a sign in the store said "community fish pH 7". They also feed the fish every hour when they do the pH test. The pH test reads "yellow" which can be anything from 0 to 6.5. The real reason it was in the kit because it was cheap and no one was buying them. The fish die of ammonia poisoning within the week and the buyer assumes it was pH.
> 
> Yes, pH matters but you need to get a new tank owner laser-focused on ammonia and latter nitrite. Distractions lead to dead fish


I know what you are saying, and I basically agree with you. The pursuit of "perfect pH" with chemicals is often disastrous. I'm a firm believer that stable pH is just as important--if not more important--as ideal pH.

My only point is that, in my opinion, a competent employee would have asked a couple follow-up questions when the customer stated his pH was low. What is low? Was the customer simply aiming for a pH of 7 and testing at 6.8? Or was the pH actually low enough to cause harm?

Perhaps I'm a little sensitive about this subject because I had a bad experience with low pH. Almost a year ago (definitely still in the "amateur" stage at that point), I set up a 220 gallon tank at work. I added some sand and filter media from established tanks to help with cycling. I ran a panel of tests, and my pH was about 7.2...I decided that was fine and left it alone. A few days later, I started adding fish...mostly tetras, barbs, etc. Over a period of a couple months, I tried adding fish multiple times. Each time, they were dead the next morning. I decided to try something more hardy...a few medium sized South American cichlids that somebody gave me. About an hour after putting them in the tank, I noticed a milky white film over their entire body. I decided to test my pH again...it had dropped very low (around 5). I believe the fish were dying from some kind of pH shock and/or burn. I raised the pH by adding a bag of crushed coral to one of the filters, and gradually adding small amounts of baking soda. The tank has been fine for quite some time now.

I also agree that most newbie's problems are related to ammonia, nitrite, etc. However, based on personal experience (which is ultimately how most of us approach fish keeping), I would not dismiss a claim of "low pH" from somebody whose fish were dying. It might not be the most likely cause of trouble...but it is a possible cause. Just my 2 cents.

And for the record, I've met some very competent fish hobbyists at local big box pet stores. I just think it's a shame that these stores don't do more to educate their employees. I know one guy who doesn't hesitate to intervene when he witnesses a customer getting bad advice in one of these stores...he's got some interesting stories to tell.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I'm going to run for Governor of Alabama starting next year.
If I win, believe me, I will find a way to put a stop to some of this. I'm thinking about a certification test that must be taken and passed before anyone can open a petshop or renew it's business license.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I've killed fish with low pH, too. But not until I moved here where the water is soft. In many places its a non-issue. But you are right a few more questions would have helped. People are known to plop fish into straight RO or DI water.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

With the Ph issue I would want an answer for one main reason- Does the customer need to drip acclimate. I think this is always a good idea, but if the Ph in the store is close enough to the Ph at home then there would't be a problem. But if your store's Ph is 6.8 and your homes Ph is 8.0 (had this happen at my place) then the shock will be an issue and likely cause the death.


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

TheOldSalt said:


> I'm going to run for Governor of Alabama starting next year.
> If I win, believe me, I will find a way to put a stop to some of this. I'm thinking about a certification test that must be taken and passed before anyone can open a petshop or renew it's business license.


If the petshop doesn't pass the test, are you going to have all of the employees lose their jobs which of course will damage the economy? How much will it cost them to take the test? It's going to cost a lot of money, damage the economy, and hurt businesses. I don't think that's your plan for Alabama, but you deserve a heads up. It looks good on paper, but won't be good in real life. Just like socialism and communism. It's good that you want to save fish though... 

I personally have seen people getting 1/2 gallon betta bowls with no heaters which is a bad idea unless you keep your house at a minimum of 78 degrees F.

This person at petsmart told me that all male bettas have long fins and all female bettas have short fins. I felt like bursting out in laughter. 

I got told by a petsmart employee that bettas can stay in those little teeny jars for their whole lives. I extremely doubt that that person knew anything about bettas.

On the other hand, I learned a lot of stuff from a petco employee. We would call him up and ask him questions. He was very knowledgeable. There was also a petsmart employee who successfully kept 10 gallon reef tanks. From what I've heard, that's tricky.

Both petco and petsmart have knowledgeable employees and employees that know nothing. The majority of them are don't know a thing. Both of them do weekly water changes on their betta when daily water changes are barely adequate. Petco overfeeds, petsmart feeds the right amount. I pray that neither of them go out of business. They employ thousands of people and without them, a lot of people, including lohachata would be unemployed. In my opinion, they're a mixed blessing.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Its possible that a week of training for new hires would actually help the stores make money by keeping new fish-keepers from getting disgusted and leaving the hobby so quickly.

I don't know about the chain stores being a good thing. A lot of small LFS went under when they came in. A lot of fish get killed a lot of tanks get thrown away. Fish are equip are certainly cheaper now. Or rather a cichlid costs the same $6 and a heater costs the same $25 as 30 years ago. But the cichlid now comes from Hungary and heater cooks the fish. I think people would at least try to take better care of fish if animals costs more.

Low wage workers collect food-stamps and medicaid whereas the places they replaced paid a living wage. Totally "free" enterprise is clearly best for shareholders, but whether it is best for everyone is debatable. 

I would vote for TOS, but I don't want to live in Alabama.


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

TheOldSalt said:


> I'm going to run for Governor of Alabama starting next year.
> If I win, believe me, I will find a way to put a stop to some of this. I'm thinking about a certification test that must be taken and passed before anyone can open a petshop or renew it's business license.


Governor?! Why not for President in 2016? Go big or go home! LOL!


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## MrKrabs (Sep 28, 2012)

*Need for cycling*

I just recently set up a 10 gal tank with 2 fancy guppies. I did not cycle the tank. I spoke with several breeders stating that as long as you do regular water changes, don't overfeed your fish will be fine. My bio load is low. I change most of the water every weekend. I have not had any trouble not cycling. Fish are doing good since September.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

good thing i don't live in Alabama.....i couldn't pass the test.


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## bullseyejoey (Aug 30, 2012)

Once when I was inexperienced with guppies I asked one of the workers in petland discounts which was male and which was female. She's like I have no clue and she got another women (who knew the difference). Why are they working at a store with stuff they have no clue about. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Betta man (Mar 25, 2011)

@ Ice, if his special test for fish would damage the economy in Alabama, imagine the damage nationwide. No offense, but I would vote for Santorum. 

@ bullseyejoey, Because there are dogs and rodents and cats at petland too. Right? Not everyone in petland is a fish geek. It is not fishland. I say the aquatics specialists need to be a know it all in terms of fish.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Santorum? When he succeeds in preventing birth control half of the work force will drop out to care for unwanted kids, guess what that drop in household spending power will do to the economy and the drop in tax revenue will do to the deficit. Plus the bump in crime from all of the hungry young people. Can you say Romania under Ceaușescu. He wanted more citizens to help the economy, he got fatal illegal abortions, an epidemic of abandoned & neglected children, recession and soaring crime rates.

8 hours of online class wouldn't break the big chains and might save a lot of fish.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Loha, I'm sure you could probably WRITE the test, let alone pass it.


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

Betta man said:


> @ Ice, if his special test for fish would damage the economy in Alabama, imagine the damage nationwide. No offense, but I would vote for Santorum.


Santorum!?!? Are you crazy? sigh.... you have a lot to learn about politics.


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## Charlie1 (Dec 31, 2011)

Ok, well ignoring all of the other posts.... I have two stories to tell

Some hot shot teenager purchased A FULL GROWN parrot cichlid for a TEN GALLON TANK. I was like what the ****. I told the kid that he had no idea what he was doing with the ostentatious "fish specialist" saying it is fine! :chair:

The other instance was when a mom and daughter wanted a common plecostomus for a FIVE GALLON TANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This was very cumbersome for me considering my passion for plecos. DO RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BUY SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I intervened both times, and lost both times...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The most effective thing I've seen are the pics on the web of huge plecos and goldfish Show them a fish twice as long as the tank and people actually stop and think.


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

Sometimes no matter how hard we try to intervene or stop them from making foolish mistakes, they're going to buy it no matter what. But hey, it's their money not yours. Let them learn the hard way. Eventually those are the ones that give up in a hurry.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

like i always tell folks.....
it's your money..your time..your energy........your tank........put whatever you want in it...
it is also your success or your failure...all up to you....


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## fishrawesome123 (Aug 16, 2012)

I do have a story actually while i was at Petco i was asking the fish people questions that i already knew like "can this fish survive ammonia?" and they said "yes, all fish can as long as the Ph is good and level you fish will survive"
In my opinion i think the people in the fish dept just don't care they're only there for the money, i would've reported them but i decided to humor them.


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

I gotta try that with a fish expert in Petsmart someday.... mwhahahahahahaha!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Ok, it should be said here that the Petco guy in that case was almost right. 
If the pH is low enough, any ammonia in the tank will be in the form of ammonium, which is relatively harmless. I'm sure the petco guy didn't know or mean that, but there it is anyway. this is why you shouldn't try to acclimate fish which have been bagged up for a few days, but instead just plop them into their new home. Ammonium in the bag will have built up quite a bit, but the pH in the bag will have also dropped considerably. While the shock of sudden transfer would be harsh, it's still better than the pH increase in the ammonium-laden water which would turn it into ammonia, poisoning the fish.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I'd like to say a few things about the state of the aquarium hobby and the economy as it pertains to my plan to force petshops to shape up or get shut down, since some of you seem to think that would be a bad thing.

Our hobby is in trouble. Animal-rights idiots, politicians looking for feelgood legislation, and loss of hobbyists are all closing in on us. We are also having problems with recruiting new hobbyists. Videogames are a major competitor for the attention of young people, but a much bigger problem is the failure rate among new fishkeepers. 

When fish stores are run by idiots who have no business being in the fish business, they cannot give new hobbyists the guidance they need at this critical time. Those new hobbyists wind up giving up after awhile in frustration. Even worse, they sometimes do stuff like release their fish into the wild. This puts a huge bullseye on our hobby's back, and believe me, there's plenty of folks taking shots at us.

To add insult to this injury, the good stores run by skilled people are often put out of business by these incompetents.

Even worse, the big box fish shops carry certain fish and don't carry certain fish, and as we all know, the choices are frequently just the opposite of what they should be. Not only are new hobbyists having species foisted upon them that they aren't prepared to keep, some species are themselves being pushed to extinction.
Yes, that's right.
Do you know how many fish are extinct in the wild while still seen in the hobby? It's quite a surprising number. When the bigboxers don't carry them and the little guys are out of business, the farms stop growing them. We could wind up losing things like Cherry Barbs, White Clouds and even Bettas forever if this isn't corrected very soon.

The bad stores have to GO. They are a menace to our hobby on every level. Is it really asking too much that a store dealing in live animals has a demonstrated level of competence with them?

So some people lose their jobs. So what? They'll get replaced by people who CAN pass the test and thusly we'll ensure the future success of the hobby and industry which are currently imperiled.


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## OhYesItsMe (Oct 1, 2011)

TOS has a really good point, you can sum it up in saying ignorance is killing the hobby. If I didn't have my fur and feather allergies i'd be applying to work at petco or petsmart in the summer. Ive only been to those major pet stores twice, once several years ago to look for frogs and once like 2 yrs ago to look at how Walmart, Pet World, and Pet Supplies Plus are. Walmart just sucks for fish, stick to groceries. Pet World is okay, Pet Supplies Plus is fish hell. They have all these tiny display tanks, half the fish are dead and all the rest are sick, the tanks are extremely over crouded and the employes probably cant spell fish. I had some fun testing them, acting like i have never had fish and now I know there are so many fish you can put in tiny filterless fishbowls, like bettas and goldfish combined (yes they did say I could do this), some day i want to do this at like petco and petsmart, but go more in depth. My lfs only sells fish and fish stuff and everyone there knows a lot about fish, for my 55 gal tank, they gave me a precise cycling and stocking time frame and I used that and now all my fish are alive and well (I already knew how to cycle a tank, they just told automatically me after i got my 55). They have great quality fish, service and a room with couches and display only tanks, there need to be more pet stores like that. But becaause most people go to walmart or petco, they would be 10000000 times better off reaserching before they take stupid advice and loose money, fish, time, and intrest in the hobby. 

Congrads Lohachata! Hope you can help many people create reasonable set ups.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2012)

There is a pet store here in Bremerton, WA that isn't really good with their fish. But one day I broke down and bought three clown loaches to keep the two I already had company. Well two of them passed and I still have one that is from this pet store. I have had her since 2006 and she is still alive today. The pet store I am talking about is Farmland. They are doing a little better with their fish though. I am thinking about volunteering my time there so that I can help people with fish knowledge.

I wish that more pet stores would have people with fish knowledge so that people can go and get the right advice about their fish and tanks.


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2006)

OhYesItsMe said:


> Pet Supplies Plus is fish hell.


The Pets Supplies Plus in my area isn't bad. They just started up a salt water fish section this past fall. Yes they have a SW fish employee there to help out. I have seen their SW stock and almost every 2 weeks I like to stop by just to see what 's new.

The only knock I have on them is the lack of variety of SW equipment. Again, like Petco, it's all comes down to these stores having knowledgable fish employees for them to survive and succeed.


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