# Filters



## FatboySkinny (Jul 14, 2008)

I don't know anything about filters, but I saw this website and I decided to take a closer look. http://www.hiq-usa.com/ I really like the idea of this but I'd like a second oppnion.

-Teddy


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

do you know what they say about fishing lures???....
they are made to catch fishermen;not fish..
i don't think that this system will do much of anything it says it will except filter the water like any other filter will..
i ain't buyin it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

It looks like an ok bio-filter to me. But no water changes ever? Get real. Even if you suck out all the nitrates, some waste product will build up and some essential trace element with get deficient. Your money back, but not your (now dead) fish.


----------



## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

This post right here is a very important one. I would love to hear what EVERYONE has to say about this. It sounds great. I still would do water changes, but if it helps more then normal, hey why not.

Anyone have this, or think its a great idea?


----------



## akangelfood (Jun 26, 2008)

I explored their website and....

They are suggesting on their website that people use live plants in conjunction with an undergravel filter.

They tout chemical, biological, and mechanical filtration. My existing filters already do that, as I'm sure most of yours do as well.

They encourage cycling with live fish.

The only thing that I DID find interesting on the site was the use of reverse flow undergravel filters. I'm sure, though, that it isn't a *new and improved* concept.

In short, I'm not falling for their song and dance.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Its a kit with a little HOB filter, a reverse undergravel, some bio-boosting additives and trace additives, a zeolites/limestone filter cartridge. Nothing here is new except the "no water changes" marketing claim. All of these things are around and you can do them yourself if you thing they are better than what you've got.

Reverse undergravel filters push the water up rather suck it down. The give the large biological substrate area of the UG without the drawback of sucking down the food before the fish eat it. If you do it right, the waste gets blown off the gravel and sucked into the HOB. 

Zeolite (a clay) and other media (including ion-exchange resins) are availible that adsorb or absorb nitrate. In theory, since nitrate is the end result of all the food you put in the tank, finding another way to get it out would reduce the need for water changes. In practice, these things work for a while, but if you don't replace/recharge them on schedule they will stop working and even return nitrate back to the water. Nitrasorb is one. They do have a place in the aquarist's arsenal and can be helpful but need to be used intelligently. 

The limestone buffers the pH by slowly dissolving, its already common practice to put a bag of it in your power filter. 

Bio-filter live bacteria is out there in products like bio-spira that "instant cycle" your tank. 

Seachem and others offer trace elements for fish, essentially a fish equivalent multi-vitamin supplement. 

Its nice to see some R & D go into the hobby and massive water changes can be undesirable (we have drought here). But marketing a no water-change system will only encourage the people who believe that aquariums never need water changes. Of course, industry, loves them because they believe that fish only live 6 months and you have to keep replacing them.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i believe in using live plants with an undergravel filter..
i believe in using live fish for cycling..
and i believe in biological,chemical and mechanical filtration(and so does "almost" everybody else)..
reverse flow is ok;but i am not crazy about it.
but there is no way that i can accept the no water change foolishness..


----------



## akangelfood (Jun 26, 2008)

I've been told in the past that live plants with an undergravel filter is a big no-no, as it causes blockage. Perhaps that conflicts with your experience. I've not tried it, just going off what I've been told. As far as my outlining the types of filtration, I wasn't implying that I didn't "believe" in them, I was simply pointing out that it isn't exactly unique and innovative  It certainly doesn't support the concept of "no water changes".


----------



## Knight~Ryder (Dec 2, 2007)

akangelfood said:


> It certainly doesn't support the concept of "no water changes".


But, would it be better then what I have now in any way?


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The thing with live plants and a UG filter is that the roots get tangled in it. Then you have a real ch0re to lift up the plate and clean under it. Plants in pots are ok and so are floating ones. 

I don't have enough data to say whether it would be better than what you have now. I don't know know exactly what you have now and that link doesn't give anything as helpful as flow rates. Since they exaggerate one claim ('no water changes") I consider all their claims suspect and wouldn't trust the quality of their equipment, "bugs-in-a-bottle" or fish-vitamins either. 

What specifically do you find appealing? If you have a nitrate problem, try a proven product like nitrasorb. If you have nutrition issues, use a supplement from SeaChem. If you have trouble doing water changes with a bucket, buy a python or other sink-attachable two-valve hose. If you want to try a reverse UG, use a name-brand power-head and a penn-plax filter plate. Don't go mail-order Chinese-made mystery product.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

you are exactly right angel..there really isn't anything new there except maybe the combining of several elements that are already in existance.i really like tube type undergravel filters for planted tanks.there is a difference..if anybody would like to try..take 2 identical tanks..say 20 highs..1 with a brand name UG filter like penn plax or perfecto..the other with your choice of a HOB or canister filter..no fancy crap..standard lights...small uncoated natural riverbed gravel..no ferts..same plants in each tank..low light of course;such as crypts,aponogetons and the like..stock with these fish...4 corydoras anaeus...6 black neon tetras...6 silvertip tetras,and 6 lemon tetras..no;it is not overstocked.i don't care what you say...lol..remember;this is my experiment.i make the rules.
feed the same foods at the same time twice a day.temps at 78 degrees.25% water change every week..
NO CHEATING......................................................
run these tanks for 6 months..see which one has nicer plants..
and do not clean the gravel..

any wizards want to try????


----------



## Ricker (Nov 23, 2007)

Looks neat might buy it for my 20g then I can tell you guys if it is worth it. Anyways I dont do W/C on my 10g as it is I want to see how long I can keep it going the old natural way. I am sure I am going to take some heat for that though.


----------



## akangelfood (Jun 26, 2008)

I do have 2 empty 10 gallons, but they have larger natural uncoated gravel and both of them have both undergravel and HOB filters. (What can I say, I'm a fan of over-filtration.) I'm tempted to take you up on this experiment, but I'd prefer if you told me your results and I'll just do both of them in that manner  *giggle*


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

bigger,better,healthier plants and higher propagation levels in the UG tank.
the UG filter pulls the nutrients deeper inth the substrate;thus providing more food to the roots of the plants.my actual test for this was 2 15 gallon tanks planted with 25 cryptocoryne willisi in each with a small piece of driftwood..substrate was lake erie gravelone had ug and the other a hob..6 months and he UG tank bottom was almost covered with a forest of crypts..


----------



## akangelfood (Jun 26, 2008)

That does make sense...any problems with the UGF getting clogged? I've never pulled an UGF for cleaning, not sure how necessary it becomes when roots are involved.

I've always liked doing a HOB in conjunction with an UGF in my non-planted tanks, it really does an amazing job of keeping the gravel and the water clean. If I could do live plants in the substrate (even with an UGF) that would be wonderful!

(And I apologize for the quasi-hijacking of this thread)


----------



## karazy (Nov 2, 2007)

my friend has a 250 gallon that didnt have a water change in 3 years(so never had one)

took 2 girls 8 hours to clean it.only fish left were a few butterkofree(sp?) ciclhids. basicaly i'd say it is possible to do no water changes, but its nothing good for your tank at all


----------



## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

Wow - I thought these guys had gone out of business, a clearance store near me has a bunch of thier products at dirt cheap prices this week (this is a "job lot" that specializes in overstock, damaged goods, discontinued goods, manufacturer buybacks, etc)

Hi-Q's office in the US isn't too far from me, so I assumed they were liquidating stock. I wonder if a local store got talked into buying the product last year and finally decided to scrap it.

HI-Q got in touch with me about a year ago thru our fish club, and asked me to test out their filters (they were also going to send a tank for us to raffle off, but that never happened.

The power filters are ok - nothing special.
They feature a handful of small (1" or less) bioballs after the filter cartridges - which means they do have some non-replaceable bio media, but in my opinion bio-balls are a mistake in that role. They have a low surface area - they are great for trickle systems where they can get lots of oxygen, but in a submerged system they offer much lower surface area than other choices like ceramic rings, cell-pore media, or even normal foam like Whisper and Hagen use. 
In terms of design, it has the legal advantage of not being a copy of other companies filters, but the bioballs seem like a "sexy" answer to biofiltration by somebody who doesn't understand surface area, flow rates, and void space works under water vs above water...

The filter had no features that would make me select it over all of the other filters on the market - and considering how over-saturated the HOB filter market is right now, I can't see ever allocating shelf space for these filters in a store.

As a customer, I don't see the other thing I look for in an aquarium product - established logistical supply lines. 
If I break an impeller or intake tube on a Whisper, Aquaclear, or Penguin filter, I am pretty much confidant that I can find a replacement part at any quality LFS (and even Petsmart). Not to mention finding replacement filter carts.
I had to ask Hi-Q for a box of filter carts, since they only sent me the filters to test and I wanted to test them long term.

Do the filters work - yes. Do I have one running as we speak - yes. Would I go out and buy one (even at the $15 price I saw at the discounter) - no.


and yes, I'm completely ignoring the whole "never change water thing" -- I put that right there with the "lets sell 2.5g or 5g tanks with pictures of multiple goldfish on the package - or 12g or 25g tanks with pictures of marine surgeonfish on the package"

I don't have a very high opinion of marketing people. :chair:


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Thank Red for the post on the topic.

but, back to the hijack. 

Loh, do you just plan on leaving the plants alone in the UG filter, let them deal with the nitrate, and not pick up the plate?. These are rooted plants, right? Not the ones just tied to driftwood. And what do you mean by "tube-type" UG filter?


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

As a marketing person (no offense taken, Red), I see through the claims on this product. To me, this screams of a low-cost system imported system that is being sold mainly to noobs. It doesn't surprise me that they are selling through Odd-Job type stores. There are brokers in the consumer products business who specialize in that type of product and distribution system.

As for the idea that you can eliminate water changes, that's just silly. I suppose that they sell a "magic lid" that prevents evaporation too.


----------



## FatboySkinny (Jul 14, 2008)

http://hiq-usa.com/zero_water_exchange_tech.asp
I'm no biologist but I think that the whole magic behind the kit is the mineral blocks. Putting together info I got off of here, I can see how the ECo Magic can work. 


> Bacterica culturing mineral blocks which provide an anoxic (very low in oxygen) environment where nitrates are converted into harmless nitrogen gas.


I actually read somewhere that some guy name David Lass is doing a product review for FAMA magazine we'll see how it turns out. This system intrigues me, I can't find anything online like it.


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

What is so hard about doing water changes anyway? I like it because it helps clean the gravel (gravel vac) and removes tannins from driftwood.

Plus, there are other things that need to be removed such as hormones that fish release into the water. I think that most people's views on 'stunting' fish are over-dramatized but there is a real risk with certain species.


----------



## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

I know David - if he is doing a review it will be thorough and unbiased. I can't wait to read it 

Funny thing about the store I saw these filters (and 12g aquarium systems) in - they don't carry "product lines" - they carry the stuff nobody else can sell. There are no recurring products - no el-cheapo imports that you see there over and over, its a different set of products every time, usually from fire sales, going-out-of-business sales, changing-packaging-sales, etc.
Basically - if you don't buy something right when you see it at Building 19, you'll never see it at Building 19 again... :mrgreen:
http://www.building19.com/INDEX.HTM

(as opposed the the "other" odd-lot stores near me, which carry the same junk over and over)


----------



## FatboySkinny (Jul 14, 2008)

redpaulhus said:


> I know David - if he is doing a review it will be thorough and unbiased. I can't wait to read it


How about using some of your insider contacts and maybe getting some more information about this product from David for us? :console:

I don't think the power filter has anything to do with no water changes I think it's just part of the kit. I think it's the http://www.hiq-usa.com/zero_water_exchange_system_parts.asp eco magic 
along with the vita and bio magic. 

Redpaulhus, do you know when the newest issue of FAMA is coming out. I definately want to check it out.


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm familiar with Building 19. There is a chain like this in almost every city. Odd-Job in New York, Ollie's throughout the mid-Atlantic and Eastern midwest.

These places often have great deals on fish stuff if you can stomach wading through orange aluminum lawn furniture, fake vintage signs, and outdated popcorn tubs.


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

when i did this test people were not running around like the world was going to end if you didn't test your water twice a day and start throwing all kinds of chemicals in the tanks to fertilize the plants.there wasn't any such thing as a co2 injection system..there were no special substrates like fluorite and such.and no special super high wattage;super spectrum lighs either.but i did it because somebody told me that i couldn't grow plants in a tank with a UG filter..
many moons ago;long before most of you younguns were born penn plax was making a UG filter that was a series of tubes that went back and forth across the bottom of the tankthere were lots of little holes in these tubes..and of course,there were lift tubes where you attatched an airline like most al other air powered filters.heck....they may even be making them still.just put them in place and pour on the gravel..but i used a regular old UG filter.
in the UG tank;i only did weekly water changes..no gravel syphoning..in the HOB tank i did the same but had to clean the filter every couple of weeks.while the gravel in the HOB tank was cleaner at the end of the test;there was a huge difference in the clarity of the tank and the quality of the plants.the UG tank beat the snot out of the HOB tank on both of those counts..fish health was very good in both tanks and very close to each other in that respect.
i learned a great deal from many of the members of our club.right after i started keeping fish i joined the Cleveland Aquarium Society.one of the oldest(and possibly "the" oldest) aquarium societies in the US.much of what i learned was from mike neelon.he is still a member of the club..has been since around 1935 or so.he once told me that every time somebody said that something couldn't be done;some stupid idiot went and proved them wrong.so that is what i did with the plant/UG thing.

without a doubt;it was very interesting to do..


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

There are no "rules" in this hobby. Well, maybe, but not many.


----------



## FatboySkinny (Jul 14, 2008)

Hey guys I decided to get my grandmother one of these, my mother bought a 37gallon ViaAqua aquarium with a stand and an eco magic from hiq-usa.com. It's working fine but what things should I test for so we can find out how this thing works. And could you guys recommend a good water test kit. I'll take pictures of my tank and post them up tomorrow or the day after.


----------



## FatboySkinny (Jul 14, 2008)

Hey so can anyone tell me what to test for in the tank?


----------



## quickquestion (Aug 11, 2008)

FatboySkinny you should test for Ammonia, pH, Nitrite, Nitrate, and Phosphate. They have one of these displayed at the fish nook pet center in acton mass, guy there says it's been working great. I just want to hear something from someone who bought the thing. I've actually been searching forums looking for a consumer to give me his thought on the thing. 

thanks


----------

