# Definitions



## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

I’m thinking about doing saltwater... eventually. About a year or two from now (when I have more money, and more practice with “simple” (ha!) Freshwater stuff). Though like Amy, I figure I’ll get some research done first.

I’ve seen all sorts of terms for the different kinds of aquariums. Is there a specific difference between “reef” and “fowlr”? And are there any other specific kinds?

I was thinking of just doing a bit of live rock (enough for filtration...the minimum amount), quite a few plants (and I mean plants as in _real_ ones, not things that look like plants...such as anenome and urchins), and of course fishies! Since I’m waiting a couple years, I could afford to get a big tank, probably 55 at least... though I do have a spare 10 gallon I could turn into a nano, but apparently that’s more difficult to keep up with.

So, basically what I’m asking, is the definitions for the different ...er, “styles”? I suppose I could go research them all myself, but I’m too impatient... you guys are quicker! LOL

P.S. - I already got a preliminary list of fish I’d like to have... they have different needs (some need coral, some live rock, etc)... if I posted the list, would that help with knowing what kind of aquarium I would need, so I could just do exclusive research on what would best fit the majority of my stock choice?


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

well first off "THANK YOU" this forum has been dead for a few days and I finally can answer a question!!!! WHOOOT! :lol: 

First off some of the basic abbriviations and what they mean

FO - Fish only: a tank with only fish (usually aggressives)
FOWLR - Fish only with live rock (can have inverts)
Reef - a tank with fish inverts corals and live rock

A reef ready tank is predrilled to get maximum flow throught the tank taking water from below and putting it on top and plumbing to put a sump in, or a refugium.

And yes giving a stock list would help us in determining which tank is best for you. As for having saltwater plants in the aquarium, you probably already need the lighting that you would for a reef aquarium. 

Nano tanks are also much more difficult to take care of.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

*Fishy list*

As I said, this is just a preliminary list, since the only site I’ve really looked at for stock is LiveAquaria.com - though I’m sure I’ll find other ones I’d like, after browsing other sites.
A few of the fish are aggressive towards “conspecifics” - what does that mean?

Reef list
- - - - - - - - -
Neon Blue Goby (Gobiosoma oceanops)
Gold Goby (Gobiosoma sp.)
** on a side note, I’d like to have two of each... I suppose I’ll have to get mated pairs, or they’ll be aggressive to each other. If I get the two different pairs, will they fight with the -other- pair?
Black & White Percula Clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris var.)
Midas Blenny (Ecsenius midas) ** I may not get this, if I get the gobies, since LiveAquaria said it’ll nip at gobies.


I don’t know which kind of tank to put these in
- - - - - - - - - 
Dwarf Angel (Centropyge-something ... there are so many varieties of color patterns I like!)
Kaudern's Cardinal (Pterapogon kauderni)
Longspine Cardinalfish (Apogon leptacanthus)
Blue Flavivertex Pseudochromis (Pseudochromis flavivertex) 

There ‘tis!
And of course, I’m not going to have ALL of these at once. Just a list to chose from... since I’ll probably have a 55 gallon, I’ll probably get no more than 10 fish ...unless that’s too much?

If anybody wants to make suggestions, go for it! I would like fish good for beginners, of course... and I would _prefer_ tank bred/domesticated, rather than wild caught (I’ve heard that almost all marine fish are caught in the wild, unless specifically stated as “tank bred”), simply because it’s nicer to the fish and ecological system, in my opinion.
Also, I suppose I shouldn’t be picky about colors... but hey, it’s a tank I’ll have to be looking at all the time! I like blues, yellows, black/gray, and pearly/iridescent whites on fish - as you probably noticed by my list  On that note, I really would like the Jawfish/Yellowhead (Opistognathus aurifrons) ...but LiveAquaria states it’s “moderate” care, so I think I’ll wait until I’ve had at least 6 months to a year of practice of keeping a SW tank, so I don’t end up killin’ the poor thing!

Oh, and one more thing. I’ve heard star fish are “clean up crew”...which is what plecos are for FW - but on the other hand, I heard plecos make more of a mess than they take care of. Would a Star Fish be ideal for a beginner tank? I think they’re nifty, but I won’t get one if it’ll do more harm than good (to the star, or my tank in general).

I know it’s a lot of info and questions... but as I said, this is a little better for cutting down on research to specific stuff, rather than wading through a bunch of stuff I won’t really understand quite yet 


Thankies for the help!!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

No more than 10 fish in a 55 gallon tank, eh?
Guess again. They won't fit.

Fishes that are agressive toward conspecifics are those that do not get along with others of their own kind. Those agressive against congeners are those that don't get along with fishes in their own genus, or similar genera.
Both groups are very likely to attack any fish, no matter how distantly related, which shares a similar color pattern. 

Since you've given yourself so much time for the project, I would suggest that you get some books and start wading. You can get a lot of info here on the web, but it won't come with enough background info to help you make any sense of it.

FOWLR is different from REEF in that in a reef tank the rock is given what it needs to survive, like proper lighting and nutrients, while in a FOWLR tank the rock is neglected and allowed to die, serving only as a filter. Some people like to call a tank with well-tended live rock a FOWLR if it has no corals in it, but the truth is that the care of the rocks is what makes the difference. If the proper care is given to keep the rocks alive and lively, then the tank is a reef tank insofar as it may as well be at that point. The rocks need the same care as the corals, so a tank which can keep rock can keep corals, and as such is a reef tank already, just add corals. Well, that's not completely true, but it's close enough for now while you are learning.

Please do not get the idea that a FOWLR tank is going to somehow be cheaper or easier than a reef tank. FOWLR tanks are primarily used for keeping those fishes which require the level of care that only a reef tank can provide, but which would destroy the animals and/or plants associated with good live rock.

The use of sea stars as clean-up crew can be effective or not depending on various parameters in the tank.

Oh, there is another type of tank setup besides reef FOWLR and fish-only. This is the Ecosystem method. The ecosystem method depends on plants for its chemical filtration instead of live rock, although it also usually employs rock and sometimes skimming, although it doesn't need too.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Thanks, OS - I was hoping you'd be one of the ones to reply 

I'm not going to skimp on the care of my tank... and while I've got a budget and can't _splurge_, I also won't skimp on the cost of stuff - I'll get what I need, but try to keep it reasonable too.

It seems a lot of salt-water fish are aggressive... either that, or peaceful and need groups, which is why I said 10. I don't want to have just 1, though! Maybe 4 or 6?

Seems books are gonna be a good base, before internet. I'll have to drag out my library card (too poor, at the moment, to go buy my own set of text!)... now I just gotta find time to sit down and read! I like the internet, since I can copy/paste text into a NotePad file, and save it for viewing later... regular books, I'll have to write it down *woe!* 

Once again, thanks for the help! I'll slack off on questions for now... save them up for in about 6 months or so, when I can get more 'not-so-stupid' ones LOL
"There are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots"


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Most fish will either like to be in pairs or alone... from the list above, I would consider the black and white perc (or a pair of them), a neon goby, the gold goby, the kaulderns cardinalfish, and the dwarf angel. This should make you pretty much maxed out... (also are you planning on putting inverts/cleanup crew in your tank? these fish will not bother most inverts)


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Well, I don't necessarily want to "max out"... wouldn't that be bad for the fish? (even if I am going to spend lots of time maintaining - that's half the fun of having a tank!) While doing some research this morning (that made me late for work! heh...I'm addicted now ;p) I read that you should do about 3" of fish to 10 gallons... so if I did a 55 gallon tank, I could have about 4 small fish - that'd be alright with me!
I was kind of hoping for star fish as the clean-up crew, if I can work it out alright. What's some other choices? I know ghost shrimp in FW kinda do that... do SW shrimp too? I saw this really nifty shrimp at the LFS, that was red and white stripped... I figured it would'a been called a peppermint, but when I looked that up on the internet, the photo wasn't at all like the critter in the store. The store critter had horizontal stripes of bright red and white, and it was about 2 inches high (at the arch of it's back), and 5-6 inches long.
I really should've gone over there today, but I forgot my lunch and I was starving... so I went right home ;p


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

my maxing out is usually under the limit but it depends on the fish you have in the tank for that 3" rule to apply. You picked some fish that really don't need a lot of swimming room, and also are not a huge bioload on the tank. I would go with the prior list I have given, of coarse you can go with only 4 fish. The shrimp you saw that the store was most likely this http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=696 or this http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=698
Also take a look at hermit crabs, emerald crabs, and snails.


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## wrasser (Apr 5, 2005)

depending on the size of the fish as an adult you can put 10 fish in a 55. the neon golbies are good in twos. i have three in my 150 and its two against one. the clown is a good choice. the cardinals are ok, sometimes you can put two fish of the same speices or related together. just put them in at the same time. fish have their own personalities. some mild and some aggressive, watch at the LFS (local fish store) maybe you will be able to tell. some of will be trial and error. the midas blenny probably will not go after the neon golbies because the neons will act like cleaner fish and clean most fish in your tank. + put the neons in first that way the midas is the new kid on the block. i would suggest omly one darwf angle, they will get aggressive towards one another. i say this because i have a bi-color and coral bueaty in my 150 also. they get along pretty good, but i have volume (150gal.) and i put them in together. look into the starfish, some are carniors and will eat other starfish and even fish. good luck,no question is a stupid question. so ask.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

*More questions!*

Well, as long as you guys don't mind... 

I went to my LFS store today (and the shiney black sand is just.. "black sand", by the way). I did a little bit of pricing, but not too much since I really can't afford anything quite yet. The good news is, I counted, and there were only 3 dead fish, and one with Ick in the whole store.. and there must be at least 200 20 gallon tanks, and 10 "big" (maybe 50? I can't really tell) tanks for salt water fish. PetSmart is okay to get fish at, but they don't have the variety of this other LFS (which really isn't local, as it takes me almost 1/2 an hour to drive to)

Anyhoo, here's my question. I saw a 210 gallon tank on sale for $640 (marked down from $800) ... I'm most likely going to get it. I didn't measure it, other than just looking at it.. but it seems relatively square, only vaguely longer than tall. I've heard that the surface area of the tank is important, when keeping fish. Would "square" be too deep? I could probably find a longer one, but doubtfully for such a good price.

Also, while on the subject of big tanks. I wonder how I'll do a water change in that thing! For my 10 gallon FW, I just use a couple of milk jugs. Kinda ming-boggling to think I'm gonna have to use 20 milk jugs to take care of my marine pets. For one thing, that would take an awfully long time - not that I want to skimp on time, but I don't want to take all day just changing water, either! (I still gotta do chemical tests, mixing up the salt stuff, and whatever else involved).

_One{/i] more. Is $6 a pound a good price for live rock? 

Thankies s'more!_


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

actually a deep tank is more expensive than a shallow/long one. Its because the thickness of the glass needed to support the force of the water compounds the price. I also noticed that a 55 gallon tank is what you originally wanted and now your looking at a 210! NICE job at not catching the disease  

6 dollars a pound is a little pricey when it comes to live rock... is your lfs selling it for this much? Try www.liverocks.com 
Doing water changes for a large aquarium... I would buy two things A) a large gravel vac or something similar for syphoning. B) a 30-40 gallon trash can that can be filled and poured out. (you may also want to consider plumbing the tank so water that is syphoned out goes right down a drain.)


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

*tank size*

The live rock is labled as "Premium live rock"... I dunno if it really is better than other types, or if that's just their little marketing gig. I could go to the city (another half hour more of a drive) and they probably have a few stores I could compare prices. I'd have to do that on the weekend, though.

I only thought of the 55, cuz I wanted something big (compared to a 10, 20, or 30 usually suggested), but inexpensive... what I _really_ would like, is the 500 gallon bowfront they have, but it's $9,000! They do have 150 longs, but everybody keeps telling me a bigger tank is easier to take care of (that, and I'd like more fish  )
I'm leaving for work early today, so I can get off earlier... and go measure that tank. Maybe measure the others too, and do more price checking.

My main concern, however, really isn't my budget, but how well I can maintain it and how it'll benefit the fish. Like I said, I've heard that the more surface area you have (which generally means a shallower tank), the better for oxygen exchange. That's why I was wondering if that 210 would be okay, since it seems almost as deep as it is long.


On the subject of water changes. If I clear out 20 gallons, in a garbage pail... how am I gonna go dump it out? That thing will weigh twice what I do! (I'm a tiny girl, only weigh 85 pounds). And the sinks we have are itsy bitsy ones, because the "apartment" I'm in is my father's basement, which my mom had done up as a preschool years ago - so there's custom sinks that are smaller for little kids, and even my husband has a difficult time using them for grooming in the morning.
Maybe I can find a hose that will go all the way out to the patio door, and just drain it in the grass, or something...


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

A tall "show" tank that that 210 isn't really the best choice. Saltwater doesn't hold as much oxygen as freshwater does, and so you'll want all the surface area-to-volume you can get.
You were correct in your assumption. A longer, wider tank is better than a tall one.

$6 a pound for live rock is about normal for retail, but only suckers pay retail. www.tampabaysaltwater.com or www.floridaliverock.com can both get you much better, El-Primo rock for the same price, or you can get it for less. Tampa Bay offers 2,4, & 6 dollar a pound rock. The cheap stuff is plain, base rock good for making up the mass of your reef, and the good stuff goes on top of that to look astoundingly nice. Best of all, you can order a "boat mix" variety for $4/lb which contains all three grades.

Of course, after adding in the shipping cost the price will come close to what your local store wants. The difference is quality.

Florida rock, by the way comes with corals on it, and this is the only way to legally get atlantic corals. It also does NOT come with the planarians which take over tanks based on pacific rock.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

if you put the tank near a sink, that would be the best, drain it right into the sink with a gravel filter or some other hose. As for getting water into the tank... Three Words "GET IN SHAPE" lol jk. Actually I'm sure your husband can help you lift and pour, or you can get a pump that pumps the water out of your garbage can to your tank. Also a word of caution... you may want to get a DI unit so you have Dionized water to do water changes and to initially fill the tank... DI cuts down on the excess nutrients in your water, making it harder for algae to grow.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Okay, I’ll go with SO’s post first, then FishFirst’s, just so I don’t forget anything.

I measured the tank, and it’s 6 feet long, 2 feet wide/tall. I hope that’s enough surface area. Also, it’s pre-drilled with a pre-filter...whatever that means.

I figured after shipping, it would be about $6 or higher anyway. But if the quality is better, I don’t mind an extra dollar or two.
I suppose I should have corals...didn’t really want them, initially, because of the special lighting. I found lights that supposedly are more intense, but don’t use as much power because there’s reflective stuff on the top of them...it’d be about $420 or so, for the set that would fit the 210 tank.


I’m actually not going to set up my tank for a while. At least six months - hopefully we can get a house of our own within a year. So I’ve got plenty of time to figure it out - was just pondering things right now.
Since I suppose I’m going all out, I figured I’d just buy distilled water. At WalMart, it would only cost $130...not too bad, I guess. Then again, if I spend a couple hundred on a DI set, I’d have distilled water whenever I want it “free”!


Oh, and that shrimp (which I saw in a few other tanks this time), is the Skunk Cleaner one. It’s purdy!


Also, I saw a sump pump and protein skimmer for $700 (together, not each). But I forgot to write down the brand name. I know people have preferred ones, but is there a brand I should absolutely avoid? When I go back to get the tank on Saturday, I’ll double check the names.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

2 feet tall isn't bad... what type of lighting are you thinking and how many watts?


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Well...didn't really look too much at what the lights were, exactly. I will when I go tomorrow to get my tank (yes, I'm getting it... unless somebody has objections based heavily on facts of why I absolutely shouldn't! heh).
I just know they were square, with some metallic stuff up in the 'hood' part of them, that looked like crumpled tinfoil. The sign said it was more intense than other lights, and it was "starting at $130" per each unit.

My dad thinks I'm silly to do this. Though fish are theraputic for me (cost about as much as a psychiatrist, too!). And I figured this is a good deal. They have a 75 gallon tank, pre-drilled, for $820 ... I don't understand that price for that unit, when I'm getting a pre-drilled/filtered 210 for only $640 *blinks confuzzedly*
The stand for my tank, on the other hand, is $1,200 ...definitely gonna have to wait on that! Or my husband says he'll build me one from 4x4s - which I hope will be sturdy enough to hold a metric ton (or so) of weight!


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## Tipsy (Apr 7, 2005)

Before trying a 4 by 4 go to home depot get some cinder blocks. They are sturdy also cheap. If you want it to look good put a cloth under the tank to hide the cinder blocks.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

distributing weight of a fish tank is all about surface area. The more surface area you have in contact with the tank and the floor the better. If you use 4X4's DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT just have it on 4 legs with a base. A lot of the stress will be put on those 4 legs and they eventually may warp or worse, snap. Either make it out of 4X4's and plywood or better yet 4X6's and plywood. If you look at other stands, take their design, you'll notice the boards go all the way around the tank boarder, and the boards go to the floor that supports the tank.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

*Getting stuff*

Well, I got my tank. Rather miffed, though, because they raised the price - and that was since Thursday! The manager said they have no control over the price, it’s the manufacturer that sets it... but within 72 hours? They should’ve at least warned me! In fact, I specifically asked if it would be that price today, and if not, I could put some sort of hold/reservation on it.
Oh well, it was only $100 more than I wanted. Plus, I still don’t understand how a 75 gallon tank is _still_ almost two hundred more than mine...

The lights are Metal Halide. And now I can’t remember (since I didn’t have anything to write with today), if they started at just 75 watts or *1*75 ...and then they go up to 250. The price for the 250 ones is $200 - dunno if that’s good or bad (also on sale, ALSO subject to manufacturer’s whims, the manager said. So is that sump-pump/protein skimmer set for $700 sale price... augh!)

It’s a good thing I had that little chat with the manager (it started out as a complaint about the price, but then we got to chit-chatting... I’m so amiable! LOL) and she said the oak stand was $1,200 but the black pine was only $300... that’s not so bad, I might just get that one instead of having my husband build one (cuz he wants to stick with 4x4s and only have posts at the corners...silly man)

They also have a thingamajig that does RO _and_ DI to get the water 99% pure ...it’s $200, so it might be some simple generic brand. But not like I can afford it either way right now, anyway >_<


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

You've been hoodwinked, bamboozled, brazenly lied to and flat-out ripped off. 
Fishtanks manufacturers do NOT control the price of their product. It's not like the automobile industry.
The stores buy the tanks, and they are free to charge whatever they want for them. The manufacturer has already sold the tank ( to the store ) and has no further interest in it. I owned a store, you see, so I know. At worst, the wholesale cost of the tank went up and the price increased to cover the cost of replacing it after it's sold, but it's still a lowdown thing to do. Do they sell used cars on the side, by any chance?

Now they want to try to pull the same stunt with the lights? Of course they do. They know how to milk a sucker for all she's worth.

This store is a very good candidate for the 500 Foster-Smith catalog treatment. Whatever you do, do NOT buy a stand from these scumbags for 1200 bucks. You can easily make one for less than 1/6th of that amount, and a nice one at that.

As for the 200 dollar ro/di unit... well, I think there are many better ways to get good water which are cheaper and have less enivironmental impact. If you use an Ecosystem filter, you will be able to go a lot longer between water changes. ( a LOT longer ) You will also have a tank which stays a lot healthier and practically takes care of itself.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

yikes... sounds like she did really get ripped off. Check would liveaquaria.com for a price check on lighting etc.


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## Vivid-Dawn (Jan 18, 2005)

Well, yeah...as I said, I was rather miffed that they suddenly switched the price.
But on the other hand, I did a bit of research earlier tonight, and most tanks that size are $900+ and that's before shipping costs of $100+... so I don't think it's TOO bad.

The equipment, though, I'm definitely gonna look around a bit more. I really don't want to pay shipping that'll end up being as much as what I could use to buy another piece of equipment instead. Besides... I saw RODI stuff on MarineDepot website for $300-$600 and it seemed about the same thing, saying it had the 4 stage filtration.

The problem with making my own stand, is if it's not done right, the whole thing could collapse. At least if I got it from a store, I could maybe get a warranty or something, that basically guarantees it'll be sturdy enough. 

This was kind of an impulse buy. I'll definitely be looking around more for my other stuff, to get whatever best deal I can (both in quality and price). I just figured this store might be better, because I've "eavesdropped", and the salespeople actually sound like they know what they're talking about. Somebody wanted fish for a 10 gallon, and looking at cichlids. The salesperson said 'no, better get something like tetras or guppies' and then proceeded to ask about how the tank was set up, for how long, etc. Better than Petco, where the guy was blowing into the bag with his breath to give the fish air... ewww!


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