# hardy algae eaters...flagfish?



## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

so i've come to the conclusion that the otocinclus are simply not working out in my tank :\

even though my water parameters are excellent and i do 30% weekly water changes in a fairly well-planted aquarium, i've gone through at least five of them. they show no signs of illness, and the last one was quite fat (healthily so) they just randomly dropped dead. i'm getting a little depressed over this 

i've got one left, and i haven't the heart to put more in there, even though they really should be in groups. 

so can anyone recommend a hardier algae eater? i was thinking of the american flagfish, jordanella floridae. could i put one of these in my tank?

for the record, it's a 15 gallon with the footprint of a 20 high, stocked with 5 skirt tetras.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Just FYI this is incredibly common. IF you can get them to survive the first few weeks (often just the first few DAYS) then they tend to be good fish. Its dang hard getting them past that time period though, no matter what you do (IME). I lost closer to 10 in my attempts to get 4 in my 20 gallon. I have hung with just 2 in there and decided not to kill anymore poor souls. I hadn't realized the number was that high because it was so short a period of time that it happened in. If I had stopped to consider how many I was loosing I would have stopped sooner. 

I just wanted you to know that this is a fairly common experience and I read a bunch of articles about it at one point, but no longer have them bookmarked. Essentially it has to do with the practice of shipping fish while "starved" which for most fish works really well, but for this fish it destroys the necessary bacteria in their bellies, and then they can't digest their food right when they do start being fed again. So it is nothing that you are doing, or at least it is likely that it is not anything you are doing wrong.


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## shade2dope (Jan 21, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your lost's.O i didnt know that.I ould say a clown pleco but they dont do that great of a job with algea imo but I think theyd do fine in your tank.but if you were to get one make sure you pick up a piece of drift wood too.


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## darkfalz (May 7, 2006)

Platys are very underrated algae eaters, when I put them back in my main tank they completely cleaned all the white fuzzy stuff off the heater and filter intake in hours, and even pick the plant leaves clean. Though they don't scrub the surfaces of the tank, they do pretty well on the white algae buildup.


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## FishHead (Nov 16, 2006)

smaller plecos or golden algae eaters are great for tank clean up. i have two stingray plecos and they clean everything in the tank. I also have oto's and haven't lost any yet..knock on wood.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

hmmm...the only thing is that my tank is really planted, and i've heard plecos sometimes mess with the leaves or can uproot plants. and i don't think there are any small plecos small enough for a 15 gallon tank :\

as for golden algae eaters, aren't they just a color variation of chinese ones? i'm a little scared of them, having read about what they can do to fish.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

What kind of algae do you have? It may be better to ID it and try to fix the problem, rather than trying to add in more fish.

I'm not sure if Flagfish are hardy, but I have heard that they can be kinda nippy towards other fish. And I believe they only eat certain types of algae, like most algae eaters.

This site also talks about them eating plants at times: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myfish/52-AmericanFlorida_Flagfish_Jordanella_floridae.html.



> hmmm...the only thing is that my tank is really planted, and i've heard plecos sometimes mess with the leaves or can uproot plants. and i don't think there are any small plecos small enough for a 15 gallon tank :\
> 
> as for golden algae eaters, aren't they just a color variation of chinese ones? i'm a little scared of them, having read about what they can do to fish.


We posted about the same time. 

I wouldn't put a pleco in a 15g. Even Bristlenose plecs, which get around 4.5-5" are still a little large. And they will barrel through your plants when moving around.

Golden algae eaters are indeed a golden variation of Chinese Algae eaters. They get huge and can be aggressive.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

it would seem like i've got everything. bushy brown algae, hair algae, green spot (which i know no algae eater will eat)


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

hmmmm
how hard is your water ? What's your pH ?
Butterfly godieds (_Ameca spendins_) are great at eating bushy beard algae and hair algae IME - but they really need a pH above 7 and fairly hard water.

If your water is more soft or acidic, how about some true SAE's ? A pair of small ones should do the trick. Eventually they'll get a wee bit big for that tank (about 3" IME) but it takes a while, and they're usually easy fish to find a home for.

If you were dealing with common green algae I'd go with an _Ancistris_ pleco -- I've never seen mine eat any of my plants (and since they're breeding for me, I've got at least 50+ in one planted tank at any one time, and at least one in every tank in the fishroom).
I personally like otto's for brown algae but don't see them do as much for green. And as was noted, they tend to be a fish that either does really well or crashes - I usually wait until the shipment at work has been in the store for a few weeks before I recommend them to customers, that way any of the weaker fish have already moved on...


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

BBA (the bushy brown algae) usually results from inconsistent co2 levels. Hair algae can result from low CO2 and/or inconsistent/low nutrient levels. 

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

Do you dose ferts in your tank? You have fairly high lighting, so having a good dosing schedule would really benefit you IMO. Also, your fish load is pretty light. I'd get some dry fertilizers and start dosing Nitrates, Potassium and possibly Phosphates if you don't already. Excel will help kill hair algae and BBA if you spot treat with atleast double the recommended dose, so I'd pick some of that up as well. 

If you need some dry fertilizers, a good source is: http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com. I'm not sure if Rex has a shopping cart on the site yet or not. You may need to email him your order. He's pretty fast about shipping things out though and his dry ferts are cheap and will last you awhile, especially for your tank size. I dose mine with measuring spoons (1/8tsp, 1/4tsp) right into the tank.

The EI method might work for you if you can do 50% water changes weekly.


> 20~40gal
> 50%H20 change-weekly
> +/-1/4Tsp-KN03 3x a week
> +/-1/16Tsp-KH2P04 3x aweek
> ...


I'd dose less than that for your tank size...maybe 1/8tsp of KNO3. Potassium can be increased to atleast 1/8tsp, as you can't really overdose it. I dose ~1/4tsp of K2SO4 in my 10g.... You could dose Flourish as its recommended on the bottle. I'd alternate KNO3/K2SO4 and Flourish every day.......keep up on changing out your CO2 mix weekly. If you want to try phosphates (green spot is said to be from low phosphates), you could dose the 1/16tsp maybe 1-2 times a week.


Try the fertilizing schedule, get some Excel, keep up on weekly water changes, and remove as much algae as you can (hair brush is easily removed with an old toothbrush if you twist it around it). 

I just don't think there is a good algae eater for your tank size that will eat BBA and Hair algae. SAEs normally grow 5-6" and while I've never kept them, I've actually seen pics on other sites of them that are atleast 5" and true SAEs. I don't suggest them for small tanks.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

yeah, i've seen SAEs at a store near me, and they get pretty big! i was considering one until i saw a bunch of five-inchers in their tank.

i dose flourish weekly. i have some excel, i'll start using that. it's death to my anacharis though :\
i also have some nutrafin plant gro and some tetra florapride?

here's the florapride's ingredients:
Iron and Potassium Analysis: Soluble potash = 3%, Iron = .02%, derived from potassium sulfate and ferric sulfate.

PlantGro:
NPK: 0.3 - 0.08 - 0.8 
Total Nitrogen (N) - 0.3% Total Phosphorus (P) - 0.08% Total Potassium (K) - 0.8% Magnesium (Mg) - 0.012% Sulfur (S) - 0.020% Iron (Fe) - 0.0085%

Flourish:
Calcium 0.18%, Mag 0.11%, Sulfur 0.23% Chlorine 1.23% Cobalt 0.0004% Iron, (Ferrous gluconate) 0.58% Manganese 0.005% Molybdenum 0.002% Sodium 0.77% Zinc 0.00044% Tin 0.000028% Nickel 0.000036% Vanadium 0.0001% Rubidium 0.0001% Iodine 0.0001% Bromine 0.001% Potassium 0.06% Phosphorus 0.01% Amino acid chelates 0.6% other misc organic factors 0.0156 % preservatives 0.3%

is there any combination of these i could use? i'd just like to get rid of them before i go buying more ferts.

oh and-shoot! i have to remix the co2 every week? rats! i thought it could last for 3, that's what the box said... :\ 
i'm looking into building a small pressurized co2 system, based on paintball co2 canisters. i feel that pressurized is probably a better way to go, since my lighting is so high (3.7 wpg)


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

IMO you won't get enough potassium from those. You may get enough Phosphorus and possibly nitrates (along with feeding and breakdown of fish waste). I'd atleast invest in some K2SO4 or Flourish Potassium (dry would be cheaper) to dose. Check your nitrates periodically before water changes and that will tell you if you need to dose more of them. If they are 5 or less before water changes, I'd get some KNO3 to dose. 

I wouldn't suggest dosing all of those though...just use the Flourish one day and the PlantGro the next. I wouldn't use the Florapride as I think you could overdose Iron and its not a good thing.

I know what you mean about wanting to get rid of what you have though. I have alot of the micro nutrient fertilizers that I used before I really knew about plants and their nutrient needs. 

I would atleast remix the CO2 every 2 weeks. If you had 2 bottles, I'd suggest doing 1 weekly, but I forgot that you've switched to the Hagen system (right? or am I thinking of someone else?...). You want it to be as consistent as possible and remixing often helps that. When the sugar starts to get low, the yeast die and the mix doesn't produce as much CO2 as when its "fresh"....so you get even more inconsistent levels, leading to BBA.

Pressurized would definitely be worth it and alot less hassle. Plus, its consistent, so you'd have a lower chance of having a BBA outbreak. The paintball system should work pretty well. 
Aquabotanic.com has a paintball co2 regulator, but you'd also need tubing, needle valve, diffusor and check valve at the least. I've heard the paintball co2 cylinders are pretty cheap to buy and cheap to refill, so you could do without a solenoid (allows you to set it to a timer). I'm not even sure you can buy solenoids to fit that regulator.


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## trashion (Aug 24, 2007)

okay, i'll order the potassium and KNO3, because i've had problems getting enough nitrate-the plants suck it up too fast, i've seen it go down to zero.

are you saying i should dose flourish, then plant gro every other day? on the flourish bottle it says to only dose once a week 

the plant gro is a sample bottle, so it'll run out pretty fast. then i think i'll start on the dry ferts once it runs out.

one last thing-could you make a recommendation as to a needle valve? is there anything specific i need when looking for one?

i'm sorry for all the questions! i just want this tank to finally look nice :x!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

trashion said:


> okay, i'll order the potassium and KNO3, because i've had problems getting enough nitrate-the plants suck it up too fast, i've seen it go down to zero.


Yep, you definitely need more nitrates then.  



> are you saying i should dose flourish, then plant gro every other day? on the flourish bottle it says to only dose once a week


Yep. You have pretty high light and CO2, so your plants will be using up nutrients pretty fast. You need to replace them, so you'll dose micro nutrients (Flourish) one day and macros (potassium, nitrates via PlantGro until you get dry ferts) on the alternating day.



> the plant gro is a sample bottle, so it'll run out pretty fast. then i think i'll start on the dry ferts once it runs out.


Excellent. I don't think it will be very efficient, but it will do until you get the dry ferts. Its definitely better than nothing though, IMO.



> one last thing-could you make a recommendation as to a needle valve? is there anything specific i need when looking for one?


Here's the regulator: http://www.aquabotanicstore.com/CO2_Shooter_paintball_regulator_p/10174.htm. I've seen them more expensive than that, so its a good deal IMO. And Aquabotanic has an inline needle valve and a brass check valve (plastic ones wear away). AB also has tubing and while 10ft is probably more than you'll ever need, you could keep it for later. Or, Rex sells it by the foot, so you could get it when you get your ferts. You'd probably need 3-4 feet or less if the cylinder is close to the tank.



> i'm sorry for all the questions! i just want this tank to finally look nice :x!


It's perfectly fine! I'm gonna have you all fixed up soon with all the links I'm showing you.


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