# Want a cichlid tank



## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

Hi everyone, I'm new to these forums.

I have had a community tank for the last several years with livebearers, clown loaches, and one bushy nose pleco. I've been wanting to switch to cichlids, so I haven't replaced any fish that have died in the last year. Now I'm down to 4 zebra danios, 2 clown loaches and the bushy nose pleco.

Someone in the tank has been aggressive and killing off the others. I'm not sure if it was my Angelicus Botia, but I doubt it because he's gone now too. 

Anyway, I don't know mucha bout cichlids, except for that I like them. Can anyone offer any suggestions on if the remaining fish I have now will be compatible with cichlids, or should I start a completely new tank with the cichlids?

Also, what are some good cichlids to start out with? The pet store has a tank called "Mixed african cichlids", I'm not sure if that means anything in that tank will get along with each other.

Any ideas or suggestions for a beginner would be greatly appreciated.

Have a great weekend!

:fish:


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## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

Hi Harley!! Welcome to FF!!!

First off, what sized tank do you have there? 

If you have anything 40 gallons and over, it is highly possible you could do a African cichlid tank. Under 40 gallons and you'll have to look into getting something smaller in the cichlid family. The loches and plec should be fine with Africans. 

You will need to get rid of the danios if you want to do africans, African's water chemistry is alot different than danios. Plus Africans are mighty aggressive, and would prolly have them for lunch. 

Secondly, don't buy the fish from the "Mixed African Tank". 9 times out of 10 you have a load of cichlids and you have no clue what they are, as alot of them are hybrid, and they can be dieased. These are like the "throw backs" of the cichlid world. You'd do much better getting them from A) AquaBid, or B) a Local Fish Store (LFS), not a place like Wal-Mart and Petsmart. I have heard that Petco has a good selection of cichlidae. 

You will need a good filter, and some things to make the water chem just right for them. I use water buffers to get everything right, as my tap has hardly any pH at all. There are other ways to do this, more natural ways, I'm just not sure how it's done at the moment LOL. 

Keep in mind that Africans like Hard, high pH. Around 7.6-8.0, I believe (it's been awhile since I havre looked this up). 

This is all I can think of at the moment. 

Oh, and THANK YOU for doing research before getting into cichlids! Your fish will eventually thank you too, with their beauty!!


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

I have a 55 gallon tank. I just tested my water, we have well water, but my pH has always been very high, right now its 8.4, is that too high for cichlids? I have a good bio wheel filter system, its been awesome so far for me. My nitrates are 0 and my nitrites are 0 as well. The hardness is high - 300 - probaby because we're on a well system with a Kinetico softner. My alkalinity is high too.

I don't mind getting rid of the danios, actually, I used them three years ago to cycle my tank, two of them died during cycling and the other four ARE STILL HERE! What about my clown loaches and my pleco? I really like them and would like to keep them if I can. 

Can you recommend some varieties of cichlids that are good to start out with? 

Thanks for your help!


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2007)

Welcome to Fish Forums!

I would also like to thank you for doing research before buying.  

A 55g is the minimum tank size for alot of African Mbuna. They are aggressive and usually get more aggressive as they mature (if you buy them young).

For a 55g, I suggest choosing 3 types of Mbuna and having 4-5 fish of each type. Most Mbuna get around 5-6 inches and they are best kept in groups with 1 male to several females to reduce aggression.

Some good choices for a 55g are Acei, Rusty Cichilds, Yellow Labs, P. saulosi, Greshakei, Cobalt Blue, L. Hongi (wouldn't keep them with the Yellow Labs), Perlmutts.

I wouldn't keep more than one species of Labidochromis in the tank, so if you choose one of them, choose 2 other types that aren't Labs. 

That should get you thinking about what you like. Some people keep loaches with Mbuna and they do well. Plecos sometimes do well too, but I'm not going to tell you that they'll both be fine. Sometimes plecos get their eyes gouged out, but its not a sure thing. Most of the Mbuna I listed above are not too aggressive, but they all have a chance of being aggressive (if that makes sense). Hopefully the loaches and pleco will be fine though.

Hope that helps!


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

Kristin - Thanks for the information, so would you suggest that I buy 4-5 of one type, let them adjust to the tank, then buying 4-5 of another, etc.? Or should I add 2 of each type, then keep adding them until I get to 4-5 of each? Did that make sense?

Also, were my water readings that I posted good for cichlids?

My Pleco is getting pretty big, I would say he's about 5-6 Inches long now and he's a good hider (I wish he was as good at eating algae as his is hiding). But I love him, his name is Wally and I would hate for something to happen to him.

Thanks again for the information!


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2007)

harleygirl said:


> Kristin - Thanks for the information, so would you suggest that I buy 4-5 of one type, let them adjust to the tank, then buying 4-5 of another, etc.? Or should I add 2 of each type, then keep adding them until I get to 4-5 of each? Did that make sense?
> 
> Also, were my water readings that I posted good for cichlids?
> 
> ...


I think it would be best to add 4-5 of one type and then add another group later on. Either way, you will have some aggression towards the new fish, but atleast by adding them groups at a time, the whole group will be affected and 1 or 2 fish won't be singled out.

Ohh...I forgot to mention your water readings. They are perfect for Africans! The pH is great and you won't have to add anything to your water (some of us add some crushed coral to our canister filters or to the tank to increase the hardness), so you are good to go. 

Mbuna are rock dwellers, so you'll want to have alot of rockwork in the tank (forgot to mention this above as well ). Your Pleco should have enough hiding spots. The Mbuna will hide as well, but they don't hide all the time, so the pleco should be safe. Any type of rock that you can get ahold of will work. I used slate in my tank because its easy to stack and make hiding spots.

Here is an article about the 2 types of cichlids that are found in Lake Malawi: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/haps_vs_mbuna.php. It just tells you the differences. That site used to have an article specifically on Mbuna, but they've taken it off.

Here is another on Mbuna:http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article7.html.

Basically, the things you want to remember is that they are rock dwellers (so have alot of rock in the tank), most of them are herbivores, so feed them a staple food of veggie or spirulina flakes and limit the animal protein (blood worms, shrimp pellets/based foods, etc...), and they should be kept in groups to take care of some aggression. You want to have 1 male to several females, but some of them are hard to sex, so you just get what you get.

Like Laura mentioned, stay away from the mixed African tanks. Sometimes you can find ok looking fish that may not be hybrids, but more often you see the hybrids. Aquabid is a great place to get fish. If you haven't used it before, its like Ebay, but with fish and fish stuff. There are usually alot of Mbuna for sale. Usually though, you'll see groups of 6-8 or so. With that, you could get them and hopefully observe which are males and which are females (harder in some species) and then keep a group of 1m/3-4f. If you have a LFS that you could give the extras to (for credit or money), that would be great...or you could sell them to another hobbyist. Definitely check out what your LFS have and go to different ones to see what the choices are. Alot of times, they will sell different sized fish, so instead of the little ones you see on Aquabid, you could get a medium sized, half grown one. They tend to be more expensive the larger they are though. 

Good luck! And if you have any more questions, just ask away.


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

OK, stupid question, but what is wrong with hybrids? Or is it the obvious reasons that they are probably unpredictible in behavior, etc?


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

On top of the fact that they are usually more aggressive than other fish 
(at least with my experience with SA/CA cichlids), and often have eating disorders or physical mutations, there is nothing wrong with KEEPING them. Selling is where theyres a problem. Many retailers are unresponsible and will give fish a fancy name or even claim the hybrid to be somethign pure just to make a buck, and people dont know what they are getting themsekves into.
Good luck by the way, my names nelson, if you need any advice just ask


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2007)

I agree with Nelson......and knowing that most Mbuna will breed pretty readily, you may eventually have more fry than you can keep and may need to get rid of them. Then comes the problem, if you have hybrids....


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

Kristin & Nelson, thanks for the information, I'm not planning on selling them or anything like that, but you're right, if I had an abundance of them, I would need to get rid of some. And, I definately don't want any that are extremely aggressive in my tank. I looked up some of the ones that Kristin told me about earlier, they are really pretty fish!

You all are the experts, I'm learning from you, so thanks for the information, I appreciate your help!


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2007)

harleygirl said:


> My nitrates are 0 and my nitrites are 0 as well.


Hi there! I am soon starting a cichlid tank as well, so good luck on that. But the one question I have and hopefully others can help me with it. Aren't your nitrAtes suppose to be <20ppm it shouldn't be 0, right? Or am I misunderstanding? Thanks!


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm not really sure that mine are "0", but I'm using the Quick Dip 5 in one tests and there is hardly any color at all, so I read that as zero. On my test strip, it says that anything above 40 is unsafe.


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## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

Looks like all my cichlid cronies have came to help  

Good luck with your tank Harley and Ad!!!!

If you need advice, don't hesiate to give us a hollar!


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks for all of your help everyone.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

adpierin11 said:


> Aren't your nitrAtes suppose to be <20ppm it shouldn't be 0, right? Or am I misunderstanding? Thanks!


That is correct. Nitrates in small quantities are not harmfull to fish, and as long as you bring the count down every water change it is fine to have <20ppm. But since harley has nothing but a few danios, 2 loaches, and a pleco, I would beleive it is lower if she has been doing constant water changes.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

"I have heard that Petco has a good selection of cichlidae."

Petco does not have a good selection... and frankly their policies make it fairly hard to get anything nice in. As an aquatic specialist there I know that it takes weeks to order anything good... someone asked for pike cichlids... its been 6 weeks and we still have to order them because bugdetary constraints. I would find a good lfs... or go on aquabid... or liveaquaria.com for good cichlids. 

How do you find a good lfs you ask? 

Find one with a knowledgable staff and decent selection, given that cichlids are one of the largest groups of fish... they should at least have 8-15 species on hand at any given time.

How do you know a staff is knowledgable? Ask questions such as: how long does it take to cycle a tank? a: 4-6 weeks give or take a week 
how many mbuna (ummboonah) can I put in my tank? a: how large is your tank and which species were you looking for? (this will be a good test as bad fish stores will not know what mbuna is)
and continue with questions you already got the information from here. If the answers you get are completely different or totally opposite... they aren't correct.


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## Laura Ann (May 3, 2006)

Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me FF. I wouldn't know as I am strictly LFS/Online buyer.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I try to discourage anyone from buying from a "mixed cichlid" tank. Much better if a store has genus and species name so you can research a fish properly. Some Petlands take my fish so they at least have discretion to use local suppliers.


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## harleygirl (Nov 3, 2007)

Well, I know NOT to get them from Petsmart, I went there today just to see what they had and I questioned the "fish guy". They had a tank full of yellow labs and I asked him to show me a male, he couldn't. He said their fish were too young to sex and he would just be guessing. So I figured he didn't know what he was talking about. Also, I asked him about putting the cichlids in my tank now with 4 danios, 2 clown loaches and 1 bushy nose pleco, he said the danios would be fine because they would be too fast for the cichlids. But the advice I got on this forum says they would be lunch for the cichlids. And they won't take my danios from me.

I asked him a few other questions and got different information than what I got here, so I now know not to trust them.

I'm glad I talked to you all first!

Have a great week!


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

He might have been right about the yellow labs though... yellows I believe are notoriously hard to sex... but your right in not trusting him, danios could very well be lunch as cichlids are VERY VERY fast.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

emc7 said:


> I try to discourage anyone from buying from a "mixed cichlid" tank. Much better if a store has genus and species name so you can research a fish properly. Some Petlands take my fish so they at least have discretion to use local suppliers.


Funny you say that... Petco's "electric blue cichlids" are Melanochromis johannis but they are labeled as Sciaenochromis ahlis


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## Eraserhead (Feb 1, 2007)

They have made the same mistake at the Petco in my town too. They also have the Yellow Labs mislabeled.


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## msdolittle (Mar 4, 2006)

Just bookmarking this thread.


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

Yellow labs much over 1 1/2" are usually pretty easy to sex. Males will get a predominately darker black stripe in the dorsal (TOP) fin and more black in teh anal fin I've noticed in all that I've bred and kept that males tend to have what looks like a black stripe going through their eye as well. (it's actually 2 small dashes in the lighter color coupled with the black of the pupil makes it look like a black stripe or dash through their eye. None of the females have had this and most females will have little black in their anal fin until their are well into adulthood (3-5") with coloration is always a tad risky but in a tank of many of the same fish using these guidelines you should be able to get a group of 1 dominate male and 2 to 3 females with a possible sub-dominate male out of any tank with 10 or more yellow labs in it. You could also "vent" them, which is easily done but not always done correctly and they should be close to sexual maturity (1 1/2 to 2"). This is don by flipping them over and looking at the 2 holes at the back of their bellies, if they are the same size probably a male if the back hole (closest to the anal fin) is bigger then probably a female.
here's a good write up on venting:
http://www.thecichlidgallery.com/article_venting.htm

and here's some real photo's of someone venting fish (I know fish porn :lol
http://www.malawimayhem.com/articles_venting.shtml


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