# Im a newb. Just would like some advice.



## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Hi everyone. Just found the site and cant stop reading. I have a 50 gallon tank i just set up last week and will be getting some fish this weekend. I kind of just wanted to go over my setup and get some tips and tweeks from the pros.

This is the filter setup im running. The magnum 350.









I ordered some mariland activated carbon, but i dont really know what my filter set up takes. That should be good enough for a 55 gallon tank???

Thanks.

The fish are going to be an albino oscar, and a tiger stripe oscar, and 1 sucker fish.... I had these fish as a kid and loved em.... Thanks for any advice.


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## Albino_101 (Aug 14, 2008)

Just make sure the sucker fish isn't bothered by the oscars, and 2 fully grown oscars need either a bigger tank or many hiding places to not become territorial or aggressive, and good feeding helps too!


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Albino_101 said:


> Just make sure the sucker fish isn't bothered by the oscars, and 2 fully grown oscars need either a bigger tank or many hiding places to not become territorial or aggressive, and good feeding helps too!


50 gallons isnt enough for two oscars???? Lady at petco(hahaha) said id be totally fine..
Dang..

My other sucker fish was never bugged by the oscar... I dont now how 2 will react... She said that if the oscars are the same size, their shouldnt be any issues.


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## petlovingfreak (May 8, 2009)

I have a magnum 350 and I must say I am not very satisfied with it at all! I also run a Rena XP3 on the same aquarium and LOVE it! I have an XP4 as well and I must say they are very versitile and easy to work with, very nice filters! And as far as the oscars go, the more space the better, I'd go for a 75 or 90 gallon.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

a 50 or 55 gallon tank will be fine for a couple of small oscars and a small plecostomus...
but do consider this..
oscars can reach a length of more than 18 inches and weigh several pounds...
i will assume that you bought a "common" pleco ; as that is what almost everybody buys...the common pleco can attain a length of 3 feet or more.

so within a reasoably short time you would need to upgrade to a very much larger tank..something closer to about 4' x 8' to give them enough room to manuver..
but you do have a couple of years before things get out of hand.
rated at only 350 GPM ; the magnum is not quite enough..your turnover rate should be about 10x per hour..and with fish like yours ; i would suggest 2 of the 350's..

i have a fluval FX5 , rated at 935 GPH..plus a 200 FPH internal filter and several large sponge filters in a 125 with about 20 or so adult angels and 30 young L-66 plecos..probably about 1500 GPH total filtration..they do keep the tank fairly clean..
i really do like the FX5..a bit pricey ; but it does a good job and is easy to maintain..


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

from a bioload point of view your setup should be fine for the fish, You will need to either need to upgrade your tank, or purchase a secondary tank to use as a refugium to up your total amount of water as the fish grow bigger. At some point in time tho the pleco will be way to big for the tank, and should be given back to the LFS, or it's own tank.

As for the oscars idk... I've only had one oscar when I was a teen and didn't do much research on em. I had a nice community tank until I put it in, and then it became an oscar tank. he did fine in the 20gal I had till I had to move and I returned him to an lfs. 2 oscars... maybe they are like them chichilids. they'll either going to be good with each other, or they'll mess each other up.


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Oscars are a type of cichlid, a south american type, and yes a 50 will work until they get too big, and youll know when they are too big as the tank will get dirty very quickly and you will probably start to see some territorial aggression. Idk about the filter though, Ive always used cascade canister filters. I have heard great things about the FX5 though.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

petlovingfreak said:


> I have a magnum 350 and I must say I am not very satisfied with it at all! I also run a Rena XP3 on the same aquarium and LOVE it! I have an XP4 as well and I must say they are very versitile and easy to work with, very nice filters! And as far as the oscars go, the more space the better, I'd go for a 75 or 90 gallon.


I have decided against getting the oscars. I wanted about 3 fish, but i want 3 happy fish. As for the 350, im sure it will work fine for my needs, i thought it was plenty when i bought it but i guess thats what i get for thinking... One question i have about it is that you run the charcoal in it, but they also give you a filter that you can use in it when you clean the gravel to "shine the water" whats that all about?



lohachata said:


> a 50 or 55 gallon tank will be fine for a couple of small oscars and a small plecostomus...
> but do consider this..
> oscars can reach a length of more than 18 inches and weigh several pounds...
> i will assume that you bought a "common" pleco ; as that is what almost everybody buys...the common pleco can attain a length of 3 feet or more.
> ...


I havent purchased any fish yet.. I want the tank completely cycled. The lady at petco said just set the tank up, let it set for a week then add fish.. After reading here im going to get about 3-5 misc cheap fish and have those guys cycle the tank and get it to where everything needs to be, THEN add the better fish later.... That could take 6-7 weeks from what i have read...



Tallonebball said:


> Oscars are a type of cichlid, a south american type, and yes a 50 will work until they get too big, and youll know when they are too big as the tank will get dirty very quickly and you will probably start to see some territorial aggression. Idk about the filter though, Ive always used cascade canister filters. I have heard great things about the FX5 though.



Well, i guess if this doesnt work out for my needs i can always take it back. I do currently have an emperor 500 setup with two bio wheels that im using while i was waiting for my canister to show up. I just liked the canister setup because it gets the tank closer to the wall...


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Albino_101 said:


> Just make sure the sucker fish isn't bothered by the oscars, and 2 fully grown oscars need either a bigger tank or many hiding places to not become territorial or aggressive, and good feeding helps too!



I guess i should ask this. What kinda of fish do i want to get if i want the following... I want a decent sized fish, active, colorful, and will live for along time.... And i want to be able to have 3-4 fish, maybe more.... Whats your guys recommendations???


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Angelfish... Parrotfish.... Flowerhorns.... Texas Cichlids... Electric Blue Jack Dempsy's.. Take a look at some of those and see if they float your boat


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Tallonebball said:


> Angelfish... Parrotfish.... Flowerhorns.... Texas Cichlids... Electric Blue Jack Dempsy's.. Take a look at some of those and see if they float your boat


Ok, so an update.. I got some fish... 2 mollies, a pecosomus (sp), and a red tail shark.... I know the shark wont get along, but i think the shark thinks he is a molly because he just hangs out with the two black mollies. ahaha....

Before i put the fish in i had the tank on for about a week with some old rock in it.... Did a 40% water change, tested and added the fish... Ammonia is now .5 reading from my API kit on ammonia.... Ph is so ****************in hard to read im guessin its in the 7.2-7.5 and i guess thats ok with the mollies... I did add some PH downer to lower it a tad.... I did about a 20% water change and tested the water again and it appears im doing ok with everything... Im just having a DAMN hard time deciphering the colors when im testing....

How often should i be doing the 20% water change being the tank has only been up and running for about 10 days or so???


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## Tallonebball (Apr 6, 2009)

Well now that you have bought mollies your ""decent sized fish that you want to have 3 or 4 of just went out the window. lol Mollies can live in full saltwater so pH doesn't really matter for them. 
Drip water test kits, while they are a little more expensive, are much more accurate then the dip tests
Well now that you have mollies and a red-tailed shark you need to completely re-think what type of tank you want, really the only option you have to to go community at this point and for that your going to want you water at about 80 degrees, ph can stay at 7.2 but 7.5 is a teeny bit high, and everything else at very low or zero.
Keep doing the changes once or twice a week... forever. It doesn't matter how young or old your tank is, a water change is a water change and should be done always.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Tallonebball said:


> Well now that you have bought mollies your ""decent sized fish that you want to have 3 or 4 of just went out the window. lol Mollies can live in full saltwater so pH doesn't really matter for them.
> Drip water test kits, while they are a little more expensive, are much more accurate then the dip tests
> Well now that you have mollies and a red-tailed shark you need to completely re-think what type of tank you want, really the only option you have to to go community at this point and for that your going to want you water at about 80 degrees, ph can stay at 7.2 but 7.5 is a teeny bit high, and everything else at very low or zero.
> Keep doing the changes once or twice a week... forever. It doesn't matter how young or old your tank is, a water change is a water change and should be done always.


Well, they can all live together. ahahah...

Drip water test would be this?









Thats what i have is that kit.. And i cant tell the differences in color at all...I really cant. LOL.

TO sum up, do 20% water change once or twice a week? What about my filters? I have the mesh filter in my magnum 350 with the charcoal, and have an emperor 500 with two square mesh filters with charcoal in them. How often do i change those? The blue squares now have black gunk growing on the front of em.. They have been in for almost 11 days.... IS that the bacteria growth that i want???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

you got the right test kit. While the tank is cycling I would suggest 5% water changes everyday. or 10% everyother day.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> you got the right test kit. While the tank is cycling I would suggest 5% water changes everyday. or 10% everyother day.


Ok... I have been doing 10-20% or so id say.... 

Now, back to the filter stuff... How often do you replace those???? In my magnum, can i just run the mesh filter without the carbon?? I need to search on cleaning filters. LOL


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

eh... idk 

I have an emperor 500. I never touch the two biowheels. That's where the bulk of all the biofiltration occurs. 

Me I've been cleaning the filters every other week. Basically what I do is when I do the normal 10% waterchange, using the bucket of water from the tank I just clean em off in that. Give em a good swishing to get the big stuff off, then I open the plastic ones that I got filled with filter fiber, give that a good swishing and a good squeezing and put it all back in. Along with my intake filter, and my outtake filter. Under no circumstances should you use untreated (chloramine/cholrinated) water, that's a great way completly kill your bac colony and start a new cycle. Also I never EVER touch the biowheels. Those get replaced when they fall apart cause that's where the bulk of your biofiltration occurs. I take em out every once in a while just to check thier integrity and they seem fine. + the way they are designed it seems there is never any bits and pieces stuck in em. By the end of it I got a brownish black bucket of water that my plants enjoy alot. I've got hot house tomatoes that are going to be about the size of my two fists since I've been using tank/filter cleaning water. Also tank water is good for the brown/dying spots on your lawn.

What i would suggest is don't touch the biowheel, just check everyonce in a while to see if it's integrity is still good. If there is debris (which I have never seen) just use a bucket of tank water and give it a gentle swish to remove it.

If you have non-paper filter pads, or cartriges filled with floss just do what I do with those.

As for the Magnum micron filter thing you got, my buddy in gardena has one of those. He just dunks it vigourously in clean treated water. He replaces the cartridge when he notices bits and pieces of stuff in his tank which works out to about every 4-5 months.

hope this helps


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> eh... idk, me I've been cleaning the filters every other week. Basically what I do is when I do the normal 10% waterchange, using the bucket of water from the tank I just clean em off in that. Give em a good swishing to get the big stuff off, then I open the plastic ones that I got filled with filter fiber, give that a good swishing and a good squeezing and put it all back in. Along with my intake filter, and my outtake filter. Under no circumstances should you use untreated (chloramine/cholrinated) water, that's a great way completly kill your bac colony and start a new cycle. By the end of it I got a brownish black bucket of water that my plants enjoy alot. I've got hot house tomatoes that are going to be about the size of my two fists since I've been using tank/filter cleaning water. Also tank water is good for the brown/dying spots on your lawn.


Awesome info. So you dont have a media then... Just the filter fiber??? Im currently running the filters iwth the carbon in it, im going to get rid of that setup and just use my magnum... You recommend just using the mesh and using some filter fiber in the media holder???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

wait reread I've been editing my post lol!

eh... idk 

I have an emperor 500. I never touch the two biowheels. That's where the bulk of all the biofiltration occurs. 

Me I've been cleaning the filters every other week. Basically what I do is when I do the normal 10% waterchange, using the bucket of water from the tank I just clean em off in that. Give em a good swishing to get the big stuff off, then I open the plastic ones that I got filled with filter fiber, give that a good swishing and a good squeezing and put it all back in. Along with my intake filter, and my outtake filter. Under no circumstances should you use untreated (chloramine/cholrinated) water, that's a great way completly kill your bac colony and start a new cycle. Also I never EVER touch the biowheels. Those get replaced when they fall apart cause that's where the bulk of your biofiltration occurs. I take em out every once in a while just to check thier integrity and they seem fine. + the way they are designed it seems there is never any bits and pieces stuck in em. By the end of it I got a brownish black bucket of water that my plants enjoy alot. I've got hot house tomatoes that are going to be about the size of my two fists since I've been using tank/filter cleaning water. Also tank water is good for the brown/dying spots on your lawn.

What i would suggest is don't touch the biowheel, just check everyonce in a while to see if it's integrity is still good. If there is debris (which I have never seen) just use a bucket of tank water and give it a gentle swish to remove it.

If you have non-paper filter pads, or cartriges filled with floss just do what I do with those.

As for the Magnum micron filter thing you got, my buddy in gardena has one of those. He just dunks it vigourously in clean treated water. He replaces the cartridge when he notices bits and pieces of stuff in his tank which works out to about every 4-5 months.

hope this helps


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> wait reread I've been editing my post lol!
> 
> eh... idk
> 
> ...


Ok, i think im confused now. ahah.. Im gettin rid of my empororer and just runnin the 350.... So remove the media canister and put that big bio wheel lookin filter in there with the mesh around it and im good to go??


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

well here is my entire filtration set up. From the main tank, I have a overflow box w/ sump box. in the sumbox is my first line of filtration (course sponge) The sumpbox dumps all the water directly into my Emperor 500 via water 3/4" water tubing. Through the Emperor it runs through 2x carbon filter inserts "rite size-e" 2x plastic filter things that came with emperor that got filled with filter fiber (cause I didn't know what else to stuff in em, which worked out fine. But nice part is I can stick other stuff in if I want). And then it dumps into my refugium tank. Then it goes through the last line of filtration (fine sponge) that's over my pump intake line, before it gets thrown back up to the main tank.

Only thing I can recommend is go overkill on your filtration when ever you can. The more you have the better off your fish will be. Definetly run that HUGE biowheel you got in the picture cause that's where the bulk of your biofiltration will occur. As for mechanical run your magnum canister. Maybe stick a coarse prefilter on the intake. Never can have enough filtration. I've always thought of fish to be like astronauts in the international space station, and we as owners are NASA. It's up to us to provide the best life support systems we can afford.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

lyrikz said:


> Ok, i think im confused now. ahah.. Im gettin rid of my empororer and just runnin the 350.... So remove the media canister and put that big bio wheel lookin filter in there with the mesh around it and im good to go??


I'm a bit confused as to what you have myself.

If you got the room to run it all go for it!

Run the emperor along with the 350 and biowheel. 
Or just run the emperor. 
Or just run the 350 w/ Biowheel attachement.

Just make sure you have 
Biological filtration
Mechanical filtration
Chemical filtration

Emperor does all three
350 does all three


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Good advise from TOS. One thing I might add.. You asked about not using carbon in your filter. It is perfectly OK to not use carbon. The only time carbon is needed is to remove some toxin like meds after a treatment.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> I'm a bit confused as to what you have myself.
> 
> If you got the room to run it all go for it!
> 
> ...


AWESOME.. I think im gettin it now.... I really want to run both setups but the damn emperor 500 puts the tank like 5 inches from the wall and it sticks out to far... Yes, thats coming from the wife.... So the emperor has to go...

With the emperor i have the bio wheel (bio) and mechanical i have the mesh over the bio wheel, but what do i have for chemical filtration???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

well let's see... Emperor 500 has 2xbiowheels so bio is covered. Then it comes with the 2x empty plastic inserts. you can stick what ever you want in that. You can stick a sponge, filterfiber, gravel, those fluval ceramic tube thingies (that will give you mech + alittle bio) Or you can stick filterfiber and mix in charcoal (that will give you mech + alittle bio + chem). Then you get the 2x empty spaces where the "Ritesize-E" filters get stuck (mech+chem).


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

If you got the space and the know how I would highly suggest setting up a refugium (a secondary tank hidden underneith big enough to fit all the life support equipment) That way you can run the emperor 500 and the mag350 w/biowheel in the secondary hidden tank along with the heater and any other doodads and gizmos you want. 

I understand what your wife is talking about when it comes to that Emperor too I had it running in the 50gal along with the heater. The thing is friggin huge! + the current it created was immense and the only good asthetic place to stick it was smack dab in the middle. I was slightly unhappy with it just because of the asthtics. Thankfully my tank is sitting ontop of a big armoir so tossed all the shelfs out of one side and stuck the 25gal down there and made it a refugium where all the equipment is stuck in. Not only did it kill all the noise (I couldn't sit in the room longer than 20min before I got the urge to pee because of the waterfall effect from the emperor (roommate complained about it too)) But the main 50gal looks really uncluttered. Only thing you see is the overflow box which will be hidden once all my plants grow out.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> well let's see... Emperor 500 has 2xbiowheels so bio is covered. Then it comes with the 2x empty plastic inserts. you can stick what ever you want in that. You can stick a sponge, filterfiber, gravel, those fluval ceramic tube thingies (that will give you mech + alittle bio) Or you can stick filterfiber and mix in charcoal (that will give you mech + alittle bio + chem). Then you get the 2x empty spaces where the "Ritesize-E" filters get stuck (mech+chem).


Well, im trying NOT to run the emperor....


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> If you got the space and the know how I would highly suggest setting up a refugium (a secondary tank hidden underneith big enough to fit all the life support equipment) That way you can run the emperor 500 and the mag350 w/biowheel in the secondary hidden tank along with the heater and any other doodads and gizmos you want.
> 
> I understand what your wife is talking about when it comes to that Emperor too I had it running in the 50gal along with the heater. The thing is friggin huge! + the current it created was immense and the only good asthetic place to stick it was smack dab in the middle. I was slightly unhappy with it just because of the asthtics. Thankfully my tank is sitting ontop of a big armoir so tossed all the shelfs out of one side and stuck the 25gal down there and made it a refugium where all the equipment is stuck in. Not only did it kill all the noise (I couldn't sit in the room longer than 20min before I got the urge to pee because of the waterfall effect from the emperor (roommate complained about it too)) But the main 50gal looks really uncluttered. Only thing you see is the overflow box which will be hidden once all my plants grow out.


OHHHHHHHHH, i like that idea... ALOT....How do i get the water from the 25 to the 55 tank???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

let's see basically to make the thing work you will need a couple of things

1.) overflow box (store bought/DIY)








2.) Tubing
3.) Water Pump
4.) Check Valve

This is gonna be a big post so give me alittle time to organize me thoughts here


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> let's see basically to make the thing work you will need a couple of things
> 
> 1.) overflow box (store bought/DIY)
> 
> ...


oh man, im excited.... so i can have all the goodies of both filter setups, AND another little baby tank and all hidden. WOOT.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

there are two ways of doing this that I am familiar with

A.) The uber bling way (internal overflow). Drilling a hole in the bottom of your tank sticking a bulkhead fitting there, and an overflow box. Then drilling a hole in the corresponding spot on the piece of furniture the tank will sit on.

B.) The cheaper alternative (external) using a small overflow box, to continious siphon, to sump box








I use this way and I'll give you pictures of how I DIY'd it not gonna explain to much cause it's a pain. + half the fun of DIY is figuering it out yourself.

1.) Overflow box (Buy or DIY)
2.) Siphon tubing aka "U-tubes"









3.) Sump Box
a.) you know those hang on boxes fish stores use to stick fish in while 
they catch em for you?
b.) Bulkhead fitting of appropriate size
c.) Holesaw that will make a hole for the bulkhead fitting
d.) Water tubing that will fit the Bulkhead
e.) Tube clamps (to ensure no leaks)









4.) Secondary Sump/refugium tank
5.) Waterpump
6.) Checkvalve
7.) enough tubing to get the water to the sump and back up to your main tank

















8.) output nozzle









End result

















here are the things that you have to do to make sure your tanks never flood.
1.) get a checkvalve and install it on your pump output so that way if there is a poweroutage it won't drain all the water into your secondary tank
2.) Stick a piece of piping, tubing whatever into your sumpbox that is slightly below your waterlvl in your tank. 
3.) Cut your U-tubes so that either end is only an inch or two from the bottom of your overflowbox and your sumpbox.
(2&3 set-up a continous siphon so if the powerfails the pump stops the siphon is never broken and when the power goes back on and your pump pumps your main doesn't flood)

For better instructions google DIY aquarium sumps


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

lyrikz said:


> oh man, im excited.... so i can have all the goodies of both filter setups, AND another little baby tank and all hidden. WOOT.


yep, just need a secondary tank that's big enough to fit the emperor 500 and the magnum 350 biowheel. Probally can get away with just a 10gal if you're willing to take a saw and cut down the intake tube of the emperor 500. + most likely you'll have to run the emperor 500 on the backside of the secondary tank, and the mag350 biowheel on the front side......

Or.... if the Mag350's pump is strong enough you might be able to get away with not buying a waterpump just stick the intake in your secondary tank, and the outtake into the main. If that can work that will save you from buying the most expensive part $50-$90 depending on brand of waterpump.

ballpark figuere, store bought overflowbox, U-tubes, Tubing, Bulkheadfitting, hose clamps, holesaw, DIY sumpbox, 20gal tank, Pump $100-150


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## Christopher W. (Jul 7, 2009)

cool i didnt know half the things you wrote


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

This is an excellent thread. Very informative. I don't know what criteria we use for a sticky, but this might qualify.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Thanks Toshogu.... I woke up this morning and one of the mollies was dead. 

I have been doing 10-20% water changes daily, i feed them twice a day... The ammonia appears to be betwee .25 and .5 ppm and the ph is about 7 .5. Im guessing that the ammonia got her. or she just died...

My plan is to do a 50% water change, and then add a few of the 15 cent fish to get this cycle sped up... Any suggestions?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

best suggestion I have is purchasing Seachem Stability, or a similar Bac Culture product. Basically it jump starts the Biofiltration by adding the benifitial bacteria rather than waiting for them to "pop" up in your tank.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> best suggestion I have is purchasing Seachem Stability, or a similar Bac Culture product. Basically it jump starts the Biofiltration by adding the benifitial bacteria rather than waiting for them to "pop" up in your tank.


Ok, do a 50% water change, add the seachem and then just continue doing what im doing???

Im feeding the little fishies some tetra flake... I just dont know if im feeding them to much or to little... I dont want anymore to die. lol


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

This is a great thread Tosh. Please don't taint it with this Stability thing again. I am pushing to get this thread as a sticky. Lots of people may be reading it in the future. At least say it MAY POSSIBLY jump start your biofiltration. This stuff is not the panacea that you still seem to think it is. It's not just Stability... all of the "bacteria in a bottle" products have a mixed track record.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

I know it will jump start your biofiltration. So long as it is a fresh bottle, and put in a tank that has an ammonia source and a PH of around 7 to 9 (which is what most cycling bateria like) you'll do fine. For me and my friends who have used Seachem Stability it has a 100% track record. So why shouldn't I promote it? It saves the newbies fish & time, it also can be used as a "Doh! I just gravel vaced all my gravel and washed my filters with tapwater" fixer. 

I forgot who it was, but I suspect it was you ron_v if it wasn't I appologize. But the experiment that was setup was set-up for failure.
1.) PH of the water was around 6 (the bac colonies don't survive to well in that PH)
2.) An old bottle of Stability found in the garage in a box that was 3yo..

And also there are many posts from you where you admit to "just can't wrap your brain araound" the whole cycling process. 

Just because 
1.) you have a limited understanding of the cycling proccess and the bacteria involved
2.) set-up an experiment for failure
3.) have an admitted "problem" with science in general i.e. Genetic Mod, "Unnatural" products

Please stop following my posts like koi poop, and scaring people away from decent products that can help them start out safely in a new hobby.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Now I'm not saying use Seachem Stability like you use water. Me I've only used it to cycle my two tanks, and then i think I've used a total of 2 capfulls when I decided I wanted to clean all my filters out in the sink cause they were disgusting. I still have 1/4 of the original bottle left. Where is theoldsalt when you need him?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

OH!! and also, I'm gonna put this whole thing down and out. I am now on a mission to find a microscope and use the thing on 

1.) Seachem Stability
2.) Scrapings collected of my Biowheels in the 50gal
3.) Samples from my undergravel filter in the 10gal.

idk where or how I will get my hands on a microscope but the second I do I will report results. Hopefully i can sneak into the science department and use some of thier nice microscopes that have the camera attached!

If someone has a friend that has access to an Electron Microscope can you please beg him/her to run a comparative analysis of Seachem Stability vs. the biospora found on your biowheel?


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> Now I'm not saying use Seachem Stability like you use water. Me I've only used it to cycle my two tanks, and then i think I've used a total of 2 capfulls when I decided I wanted to clean all my filters out in the sink cause they were disgusting. I still have 1/4 of the original bottle left. Where is theoldsalt when you need him?


Toshogu, how much percentage of water chagne should i do then add the seachem????

I plan on doing 50%, rinse the filters in the 50% water to get the gross stuff off, add the seachem, let it run for awhile and keep retesting....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

eh.. I'm still confused as to what you are running right now, so I'll assume you are running the emperor 500 for now.

I wouldn't worry to much about the water volume you change out so long as you add the seachem stability after you add in the new water. 

What worked for me when cycling the tank was 10% waterchange daily + seachem stability (used as directed) and just not touching any of the filter stuff till I was reading 0 ammon, 0 n2, and like 5ppm n3. Which takes 1-2weeks. 

I really don't clean the filters much, only when I notice too much particles floating around in my water for my likes (which works out to about every 3 weeks or so sometimes sooner, just depends on how anal I get.)

Also so long as you have a biowheel going (and don't touch it), after the tank has cycled. you can clean the filters out to your hearts content cause that's where the majority of all your biofiltration is occuring. Biowheels rule!!!


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

IM running both still. No bio wheels yet. Im going to remove the charcoal in the 350 and put the bio filter in there with the mesh around it.. and then get rid of the emperorer...


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Emperor 500 have biowheels them the two spinning things on the front!

Eh I would square away your filtration set up now. Box up the emperor 500 and either stick it in the closet for a rainy day, or UPS it to me =) Get the biofilter running on the 350.

Cause what most likely will happen if you run everything till the tank cycles, and then change your setup you'll start a cycle again. Bacteria will have to grow on what filtration you have left to make up for the lost population and your ammonia & n2 lvls will spike till they make up the difference. It'll be a mini-cycle cause the bac colony isn't starting from scratch, but you might have sensitive fish in your tank by then.

But then again if you have Stability around don't have to worry about a mini cycle. just when you get rid of one of your filters dose the tank for a day or two and that should keep it from spiking.

Either way you should test everyday when you do, so you know what's going on in the tank and when it stabilizes.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

really do wish they sold the plastic insert thingies seperatly for the Emperor 500, I'd love to have another 2 cause I don't run the "Ritesize-E" filters all the time.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Ok, the emperor 500 is not in use now. I removed the charcoal, and put the bio filter in it with the mesh around it. I went and got that stresszyme from API. Says to use once every 6 days for 3 times.... I also picked up 9 more goldfish to speed this process up... So far everything appears to be testing fine, and i havent lost any fish.... Im still doing 10% oil changes daily... AHAH WATER CHANGES i mean....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Cool beans, sounds like you're doing good. I would suggest holding off on adding more fish till the tank has cycled completly. Then after that just add em a week at a time. That way your bac colony can grow into the new bioload. 

For example another good way to make a tank mini-cycle again is to add like 2 pleco's, 4 goldfish, and a school of tetra all in one day. The amount of chemical waste the fish produce would outstrip the capacity of the current bac colony to cycle. So you'll see ammon and n2 pop up for a week or two until the bac colony grows big enough to handle the new load.

So to avoid this add a couple fish at a time wait a week, add some more etc. etc. wash rinse repeat.

You can most likely get away with adding more than you think, but I'm just being cautious. Until you get a feel for how dirty which fish are, and how quickly your bac colony can grow, safe is never sorry. Like I know I can get away with sticking in 8 coriadorus juviniles with out having to worry about a minicycle in my setup. Do I think I could get away with dumping in 3 pleco's? maybe... idk. 3 4" goldfish, I should do fine. 6 4" goldfish, or 2 8" maybe not.

Also finding out exactly how much of a bioload your current setup can handle is a hard one to figuere out also. That's dependent on total gallons of water your system is. How much surface area your biofiltration has + bac colony density. Also getting a feel of the waste production of fish is important here. 7 cory's vs 1 pleco which would produce more bioload? 12 tetra vs 1x5" goldfish etc. etc.

Algea blooms, fungus, infections can be indicators of overloading, but they are indicators of many other things. All of which eventually to bad water quality of course. Presense of ammon, n2 is a definite sign of overcrowding.

There should be a couple stickies somewhere in these forums on stocking tanks check those out.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Update and have a question or 4.

I currently have
1 red tail shark
3 tiger barbs
3 ciclids
1 albino pecostomsutususus
1 molly
9 gold fish.
55 gallon tank. marineland 350 with bio wheel and mesh filter.

So far, havent lost any body except that one molly. I was doing daily 10% water changes until the water was cycled but the lady at petsmart said dont do that.. Just leave it alone and do 20% once a week... Sooo, i listened to her and then checked my water 4-5 days later and the ammonia appeared to have ****************in DOUBLED... So, im back to doin 10% daily.... I also have been adding that stuff you recommended i add to speed up the cycle process...

My questions are
--Do i do the 10% daily, or 20% weekly?

--My pecostomus doesnt seem to eat anything... ever... I have a zuicinni in there that the other fish just rape and he doesnt touch it... I also got an algae tablet and the first day he sucked on that thing and didnt quit.. Now he wont touch it.. Just stays on the wall... Any recommendations on gettin him to eat?

I have mechanical filtration (mesh) i have the biological filtration (biowheel in place of the charcoal), but what do i have for chemical filtration????


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

toshogu...i would ask that you please refrain from using profanity on the site...i would appreciate it if you would edit your last post and remove the offending word..


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

lohachata said:


> toshogu...i would ask that you please refrain from using profanity on the site...i would appreciate it if you would edit your last post and remove the offending word..


What word did he use? Everytime i cuss it just blocks the words.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

the word was not completely spelled out..but spelled in a way that anyone would know it..
toshogu has put up a lot of good information here and has become a valued member of the site..it is only a matter on use of language ; that's all..


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

K this is the second time I've reread this thread I have no clue what you're talking about


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

toshogu...if you look at the first sentence of your 5:43 P.M. post...
you left out 2 letters ; but the intent is obvious..
you know toshogu ; i wonder if it would be possible to talk someone from seachem to give us some kind of talk about the product and exactly how it works....like have someone come into chat and give out the info and have a Q&A some evening..
i think that would give a lot of the members a better understanding of how the nitrification cycle and accelerator products work..


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

worth a shot. A seachem rep came to our club and talked about pH, hardness, and buffering w/Seachem products.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

LOL, okay I finnally found it and removed it. it was the use of f'ing that you found reprehensable. Eh.. Idk how I'll manage to arrange something with Seachem. Best I can do is shoot a email to who ever I am supposed to off of thier website and cross my fingers.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

here is a copy of what I just sent Seachem. Hopefully I'll get a response.

Hello, I'm a member from www.fishforums.com. Recently there has been alot of discussion of the nitrogen cycle and the use of "jump start" products like Seachem Stability. Personally I've used it with great success and have a good understanding of how your product works. But there are alot of people on the forums that are still fuzzy on the whole process. Would it be possible to arrange for a representative of your company to come down and post w/ us on www.fishforums.com. To do two things

1.) Help explain the nitrogen cycle.
2.) How Seachem Stability speeds up the process.

Sincerly,
Toshogu


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> here is a copy of what I just sent Seachem. Hopefully I'll get a response.
> 
> Hello, I'm a member from www.fishforums.com. Recently there has been alot of discussion of the nitrogen cycle and the use of "jump start" products like Seachem Stability. Personally I've used it with great success and have a good understanding of how your product works. But there are alot of people on the forums that are still fuzzy on the whole process. Would it be possible to arrange for a representative of your company to come down and post w/ us on www.fishforums.com. To do two things
> 
> ...


That sounds awesome. But you never responded to my post on my fishies. ahaha.... :fish:


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

chem filtration isn't needed unless you're trying to take out medications or tanin out of your water. (tanin being the brown stuff leaching out of driftwood).

Until your cycle finishes, I recommend 10% daily water changes. But you can get away with 20% weekly. It all just depends on what your ammon and no2 lvls are. Besides, you should be showing no3 by now. What kind of test you using, and what lvls are you reading on ammon, no2, and no3, also PH

Wait... you got 9 goldfish and a pleco in that 55gal? What is your filtration set-up again and how big them fishies?

As for making sure the pleco gets fed, just adjust your feeding schedual so that one occurs when the lights go out. From what I understand of em they tend to be more nocturnal.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> chem filtration isn't needed unless you're trying to take out medications or tanin out of your water. (tanin being the brown stuff leaching out of driftwood).
> 
> Until your cycle finishes, I recommend 10% daily water changes. But you can get away with 20% weekly. It all just depends on what your ammon and no2 lvls are. Besides, you should be showing no3 by now. What kind of test you using, and what lvls are you reading on ammon, no2, and no3, also PH


Im using the badass test kit with all the goodies.. I put a picture up of it...

Ammonia was just LIGHT green, more yellowish iwth a tint of green.. Then i stopped doing daily 10% water changes and it went GREEN GREEN.... The ph is 7-4ish... I have not tested for N02 and N03....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

dood... Green green ain't good. Run a No2 test and No3 test asap. Get us the numbers off of the test, not the color. Also what size are the goldfish and the pleco?


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> dood... Green green ain't good. Run a No2 test and No3 test asap. Get us the numbers off of the test, not the color. Also what size are the goldfish and the pleco?


Pleco, small.. Goldfish are small. It wasnt DARK green.. it was just a lighter green.. ANY green i didnt want to see... i think it was like .4pgm or something the green it matched up to.. Like the 1st being yellow, second light green, and it was the 3rd one down....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Eitherway here's the scenarios I see

Since you're saying it's green green I'm assuming anywhere between 2-8ppm. You need to do a massive waterchange 50% asap. You're liable to either permenantly damage/kill your fish if they keep breathing that water. Once you change the water, test again to see what the lvl is at. You really don't want ammonia lvls anywhere above 1ppm.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

DOOD!!! don't scare me like that!


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

kk.. 1ppm isn't good either. do a 25%-50% waterchange to drop it to a safer lvl. Also do a no2 & no3 test.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> DOOD!!! don't scare me like that!


Its between the .5 and the 1 ppm..... I know thats high... While iw as doing the 10% daily, it was always below that... Then i listened TO THE PET DUMB people and it shot up.....

I will test the ammonia again, nitrate and trite and come back with numbers and go from tehre....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

now if you got no2 showing up that means you have ammonia eating bacteria working.
if you have no3 showing up that means you have no2 eating bacteria working.

Since you have ammon still tho it means either
a.) your bacteria colony isn't big enough yet to handle the bioload of your fish
b.) you got to much fish.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> now if you got no2 showing up that means you have ammonia eating bacteria working.
> if you have no3 showing up that means you have no2 eating bacteria working.
> 
> Since you have ammon still tho it means either
> ...


I think its A....

I will have more info tonight when i get home...


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Do you have that big wheel thingy running right now? or do you just have the mag350?

Cause I went back to see when the tank got started and it's been more than 3weeks, more like 4. Since you've been using stability everything should have lvl'd out in about 2 weeks.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> Do you have that big wheel thingy running right now? or do you just have the mag350?


No, i dont have that wheel... That wheel is INSIDE my magnum 350.... then the mesh goes over that.... You can run it with charcoal, or put that filter inside the magnum....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

okay I'm confused


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

I thought the big wheel thingy was attached to the output hose of the mag350, let me go online and look some more on mag350


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> I thought the big wheel thingy was attached to the output hose of the mag350, let me go online and look some more on mag350


There is 2 options to run on the mag350.. One is you have that bio wheel on a seperate housing and run like in the picture.. The other option is you put that wheel INSIDE the mag 350 and put the mesh over that.... It mounts in place right where the charcoal normally goes...

Let me quess, im completely not doing it right... it says in the directions you can run it that way to scrub the water... It says bio filter right on it....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

OKAY!!! now I know exactly what you're running. Right now you are running with minimal biofiltration! That "biowheel" you keep talking about with the mesh cover is just a media basket!!!! A "biowheel" is that big waterwheel looking thing on the bottom righthand side of that picture.

You need to do two things at this point.
1.) Filterfloss and fill the media basket up with it. I think you can pick it up cheap at walmart or target, it's the polyfill stuff used for pillows.
2.) There should have been some type of blue cylindrical filter pad that came with your magnum. That should slide right over the mesh.

http://www.marineandreef.com/v/vspfiles/pdf/magnum_manual.pdf


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

take a look at that manual and tell me if it's the right one so we can get on the same page


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> OKAY!!! now I know exactly what you're running. Right now you are running with minimal biofiltration! That "biowheel" you keep talking about with the mesh cover is just a media basket!!!! A "biowheel" is that big waterwheel looking thing on the bottom righthand side of that picture.
> 
> You need to do two things at this point.
> 1.) Filterfloss and fill the media basket up with it. I think you can pick it up cheap at walmart or target, it's the polyfill stuff used for pillows.
> ...



There is a black metal mesh thing that the charcoal went in, and there is a big ole bio wheel looking thing also.... I have the big ole bio wheel filter that sits in the middle of that 350 and the mesh over that.... if i add that filter floss and remove the biowheel filter, then im starting over basically ya??? do i rinse the filter floss before i put it in the media basket.. do i want to PACK that crap in???


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> take a look at that manual and tell me if it's the right one so we can get on the same page


ya, the pic on the right. That filter thing... it looks JUST like a bio wheel... You can run that, or you can run this canister with charcoal or whatever media you want in it.... So your saying take out that fake bio wheel thing, put the canister back in but fill it with poly fill, then reinstall the blue mesh and we are back in business?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

LOL!!! that's the micron filter!!!

Yeah put the canister back in and fill it with the poly fill, or a coarse gravel (poly is better cause it's light but gravel will do in a pinch just make sure to wash gravel well and get rid of small pieces) And then install the blue cylindrical filterpad


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> LOL!!! that's the micron filter!!!
> 
> Yeah put the canister back in and fill it with the poly fill, or a coarse gravel (poly is better cause it's light but gravel will do in a pinch just make sure to wash gravel well and get rid of small pieces) And then install the blue cylindrical filterpad


so thats why my levels wont level out.... CRAP... Ok, i have poly fill at home... I have been using your seachem stuff also... So, just continue with 10% daily, monitor levels and hopefully these guys can hold on....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

UGH!!! problems.... okay lets see.... let me post for alittle while here


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> UGH!!! problems.... okay lets see.... let me post for alittle while here


sigh, im a failure. LOL....

I await your response.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

you're going to lose what little biofiltration you have when you switch out the filters. So waterchanges are going to be UBER critical. check your ammon, no2, no3 lvls once in the morning once at night. Do a waterchange of 10% if you're getting like .25 ammonia, do a 25% change if you get .5, do 50% if you get 1ppm.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

No not a failure, just new and mixing up your terminology on the equipment. happened to all of us when starting out.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> you're going to lose what little biofiltration you have when you switch out the filters. So waterchanges are going to be UBER critical. check your ammon, no2, no3 lvls once in the morning once at night. Do a waterchange of 10% if you're getting like .25 ammonia, do a 25% change if you get .5, do 50% if you get 1ppm.


Ok, continue that until it levels out.. Sounds good.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> No not a failure, just new and mixing up your terminology on the equipment. happened to all of us when starting out.


DO i PACK the poly fill in, or just lightly...


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> No not a failure, just new and mixing up your terminology on the equipment. happened to all of us when starting out.


Tosh, do i want to add any chemicals, or just continue using the seachem until it cycles???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

So keep testing once in the morning once at night, change the water appropriatly. Make sure you have enough stability on hand to keep dosing. 

Now here is the problem with the 350 that you're going to have set up. Yes the media basket filled with poly + the blue cylindrical filter pad will give you signifigantly better Biofiltration than the micron filter. You will be running light on biofiltration for your tank.
1.) the media basket isn't that large
2.) the biofilter bacteria do best with a wet/dry setup where they get good access to oxygen and water.

Now here are three solutions to your problem.

1.) Purchase the biowheel attachement that you see on page 3 of the manual for the magnum 350
2.) Purchase an Under gravel filter these things are dirt cheap. Only thing you would have to do is cut out the some of the walls so that way you can draw water from one end to the other when you connect the mag350's intake to the UGF uptake tube.
3.) If you still have it, Run the emperor 400. (If you run the emperor 400 you can run the micron filter on the mag350 instead)


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Pack in the fill lightly don't need to fluff it, but don't jam it in. 

As for chemicals if you keep up with the waterchanges and continue dosing with the stability you should be fine. I personally don't care for the ammon and no2 nutralizers cause they completly fudge up your test results so you won't know where you are in the cycle process.

One thing I'm gonna definetly do is Post an SOS in the general and beginer forums so we can get more heads on this.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

I really dont want to run the filters that sit on the top... My wife doesnt... Freaks out cause it looks crappy..... I KNOW I KNOW.. but hey what can i do....

I think i will just pick up the biowheel attachment for the 350.. Its smaller then the emperorer and the wife can just deal with it....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

well, the SOS is out so the advice should start flowing in. If it's asthetics I think either the sump setup or a Undergravel filter conversion might work best for you. UGF conversion would be really cheap to do. Basically with the "Lee's Undergravel Filtration System" you'll get these plastic grates I think for the 50's it'll be three of em. all you need to do is cut out the plastic where they touch each other and leave a "leg" in the middle to keep em from buckling. Then pop out only 1 of the circular cut outs and attach the uplift tube to it. You might have to do some DIY to mate the Magnum350 intake to the Undergravel Filter but that shouldn't be to hard. And since the uplift tube will be in a back corner you can use plants or decor to hide it.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

I'm sorry i messed this one up, I should have followed your post closer.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

You didnt mess anything up man... I reallly appreaciate everything.

I called the people who i ordered my magnum from and i found out the difference between the delux and the pro is that bio wheel setup.. They are so cool they are sending me another magnum with the bio wheel setup and taking mine back and only charging me the cost, no shipping.. It wasnt even their fault....

So i should have that in a few weeks and be good to go.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

One thing that's cool about UGF's is that yeah they are older than me or you technology wise, but they work surprisingly well, and they are dirt cheap. I picked up my 10gal UGF for like $5 and if I remember correctly a 50gal shouldn't cost more than $15-20 i think. Now UGF don't provide the best oxygen access for the bacteria to grow with, but they make up for that fact with just the shear surface area that they can live on. UGF's litterally turn the entire gravel bed of your tank into one giant bio/mech. Run a UGF with the canister to suck the water through it and you've got UBER filtration.

Only down side to UGF's is that they aren't to plant friendly, and using sand is out of the question. have to use a course gravel so it doesn't fall through the grate, and if you do decide to have plants, at some point in time thier roots will eventually clog the thing. (but that takes a long while)


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

WOOT!!! even better!! okay than that makes everything simple then. Are they sending you just the biowheel or the entire package mag canister + biowheel attachement?


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> WOOT!!! even better!! okay than that makes everything simple then. Are they sending you just the biowheel or the entire package mag canister + biowheel attachement?


They are sending me everything in the pic.. I looked over the two options and couldnt figure out the difference when i first ordered.... Now i know.. They dont sell the biowheel pro 60 seperately.... So she is just sending me a WHOLE new PRO unit and im just going to keep the bio wheel and send mine back for a full refund.. And no shipping.... Its small, and will fit and not take up to much room.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

perfect okay, your wife is not going to like this but just tell her it's very temporary.

When you get home tonight, disconnect your mag350 clean it up, and dry it out so you can get it ready to ship.

Run the emperor 400.

When the new Mag350 + Biowheel attachement comes in hook it up and run it with the emperor 400 for atleast a week or two, that way a decent colony will be living on the mag350's biowheel attachemnt. Then just disconnect and pack up the emperor 400. When you do that tho' you will be starting a mini cycle, cause half of the bac will be living on the emperor and it'll take alittle while for the mag350's biowheel bac colony to grow and take up the full job. So just keep up with the waterchanges and test


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

idk maybe it would be advisable to use an ammonia and n2 neutralizer... cause even if you keep up with waterchanges your fish will be exposed to low levels of the bad stuff for what... 2-4 more weeks + they've already been exposed for almost 4weeks now too. And ammonia is the worst.... RONV!! what do you think i see ya looking at this post =)


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Just really depends on how quickly you think they can get you the new mag

..... well if you use the ammonia and no2 nutralizing products you won't have a clue where the heck your cycle is. BUT!!! it would be better for the fish. And if you do use the ammonia and no2 neutralizing stuff + waterchanges. You could discontinue dosing the tank with Seachem Stability and just save it until the new mag350 + bio gets in. And I trust Stability enough to do a blind cycle with it.... wait... If ammolock renders ammonia safe for fish would it prevent bacteria from using it too!?!? I need to do some reading


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Okay, back from reading. I recommend API Ammo-lock, got off the phone with my friend and it's the one he recommends.

Do 10% waterchanges daily during this time.

here is the battle plan we came up with disconnect current mag, run emperor. do not dose with stability. Dose with API Ammo-lock as directed.

When mag350+biowheel attachement comes in, run it with the emperor for a week. Dose with stability and ammo-lock as directed. 

Disconnect emperor, Discontinue Ammo-lock use. Dose with stability for 1 more week as directed.

And here is the best part. You can run carbon in your media basket if you want to at the end of the regime =)


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Toshogu said:


> .... RONV!! what do you think i see ya looking at this post =)



LOL. Well Tosh, I must admit, I have not been following this 
thread closely and did not intend to post in your thread. But since you asked...It seems that the last several posts have been about getting the filteration system running properly. I'm not familiar with that system so I don't have any advise. One thing I might point out is that, while important, the filter is not the only place you will have bacteria. The biowheel is an excellent place for bacterial growth because of the access it gives to oxygen but the bacteria will grow anywhere as long as they have oxygen. The main thing the filter does is circulate water and act as a mechanical filter. You will have exactly the same amount of bacteria with no filter as with ten filters.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> perfect okay, your wife is not going to like this but just tell her it's very temporary.
> 
> When you get home tonight, disconnect your mag350 clean it up, and dry it out so you can get it ready to ship.
> 
> ...


Ya, i can do that.. No probs.... I was just going to use the biowheel setup and keep my magnum 350.... they said i could do that...



Toshogu said:


> idk maybe it would be advisable to use an ammonia and n2 neutralizer... cause even if you keep up with waterchanges your fish will be exposed to low levels of the bad stuff for what... 2-4 more weeks + they've already been exposed for almost 4weeks now too. And ammonia is the worst.... RONV!! what do you think i see ya looking at this post =)





Toshogu said:


> Just really depends on how quickly you think they can get you the new mag
> 
> ..... well if you use the ammonia and no2 nutralizing products you won't have a clue where the heck your cycle is. BUT!!! it would be better for the fish. And if you do use the ammonia and no2 neutralizing stuff + waterchanges. You could discontinue dosing the tank with Seachem Stability and just save it until the new mag350 + bio gets in. And I trust Stability enough to do a blind cycle with it.... wait... If ammolock renders ammonia safe for fish would it prevent bacteria from using it too!?!? I need to do some reading





Toshogu said:


> Okay, back from reading. I recommend API Ammo-lock, got off the phone with my friend and it's the one he recommends.
> 
> Do 10% waterchanges daily during this time.
> 
> ...


Do i want to run carbon???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

You would want to run carbon at the very end after everything finishes to clean up any trace ammo-lock. (I don't think you would really have to, but it never hurts) =)


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> You would want to run carbon at the very end after everything finishes to clean up any trace ammo-lock. (I don't think you would really have to, but it never hurts) =)


With the filter setup.. Im not returning my magnum, (they are sending me a new magnum, but im just returning the new one) they are just sending me a whole unit so i can get the biowheel setup... So is it ok to add the polyfil, add the emperorer 400, then just add the bio wheel setup when it arrives.. Then after a few weeks, remove the emperorer 400....

Carbon removes ammonia?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Perfect you got the idea down pat. Just remember when you take down the emperor 400 you will get a mini cycle. After more thinking this afternoon I think you wouldn't need to use stability for the switch. Just hit the tank with Stability for 7 days as directed right now so you can get some of the bacteria working in the mag350 and emperor 400. And if you use the ammo lock your fish should be fine. Just continue using ammo-lock and waterchanges a week or two after you disconnect the emperor 400 to make sure the bacteria colony on the mag350-biowheel has a chance to safely catch up.

Carbon does not remove ammonia... so by that logic I am wrong about it being able to filter ammo-lock out of the water. Disregard my comments about carbon and ammolock.

Carbon is chemical filtration. It is good for removing medications like Melafix, Primafix, aquarisol. Also good at removing tanins, and other oddball organic compounds. I forgot what it was about carbon, negatively charged ions or something like that that act as a magnet for things like that. So carbon is good to use if 1.) you want to remove medications from a tank. 2.) remove oddball discoloration of water (won't get rid of algea or bacteria cloudy water) but will make "tinted" water.. like say if you put some food dye in, it would get rid of it for you.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

How do i get rid of the ammonia.. With the ammo lock it will always test as i have ammonia in the water even long time after???


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Tosh, your gonna kill me. So i tested tonight, and it had to of been like 4 ppm of ammonia. Ph is 7.4. Nitrate and nitrate are virtually zero....

I did a 50% water change.... added ammo lock, added seachem bio stuff... No one is dead, yet..  Im goign to continue with the 10% water changes and just wait for the dang bio wheel setup to get here.....

Is there anything i can give the fish to make their little gills anybetter.... To keep them from dying???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

ammo lock is doing that for you, it neutralizes ammonia. But it messes up your ammonia tests. Just make sure to do 10% waterchanges daily. You're doing good =)


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> ammo lock is doing that for you, it neutralizes ammonia. But it messes up your ammonia tests. Just make sure to do 10% waterchanges daily. You're doing good =)


Ok, so keep adding ammo lock as directions say, keep doing the 10% changes. When will the ammonia tests start to read correctly??? How do i make them read correctly???

Fish seemed way more lively and happy today... gold fish dont seem to give a crap either way.. The red tail and the pecosomutus dont seem to be very energenic, but did today.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> ammo lock is doing that for you, it neutralizes ammonia. But it messes up your ammonia tests. Just make sure to do 10% waterchanges daily. You're doing good =)


New update. Last few days fish have seemed very hungry and happy.... The pecostomus has eaten for the first time since i brought him home.. I have a piece of zuccini against the tank and last night i caught him eatin it... I would normally put an algea tablet in for him at night, but he would never eat it.... 

Im still doing the 10% water changes.... I added the ammo lock stuff once, and then one other time yesterday... Do i KEEP adding it? the directions are VERY unclear....

Once the tank starts cycling, how do i get rid of the ammo lock?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

eh from what I read on line you need to keep using ammo lock every day, they recommend for up to 7 days, but we are using it until you get your mag350+biowheel set up with a bacteria colony. So if I remember correctly it's like what? two cap fulls of ammo lock per day?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Ammo lock will mess up your test results as I said earlier. We are doing this cycle blind.

once the mag350+biowheel comes in, run it with the emperor for a week or two, then disconnect the emperor. Since the fish have been in a tank that has been "mid-cycle" for about 1 month now, you are using 10%daily waterchanges and ammolock as insurance that nothing get's to messed up or dies on you from prolonged low lvl exposure to ammonia, and n2.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> eh from what I read on line you need to keep using ammo lock every day, they recommend for up to 7 days, but we are using it until you get your mag350+biowheel set up with a bacteria colony. So if I remember correctly it's like what? two cap fulls of ammo lock per day?


One cap ful.... But the directions seem like you use it once.... it says 5ml for 50 gallons... The bottle says it treats 1000 gallons..... Biowheel setup came today.. So thats going on.



Toshogu said:


> Ammo lock will mess up your test results as I said earlier. We are doing this cycle blind.
> 
> once the mag350+biowheel comes in, run it with the emperor for a week or two, then disconnect the emperor. Since the fish have been in a tank that has been "mid-cycle" for about 1 month now, you are using 10%daily waterchanges and ammolock as insurance that nothing get's to messed up or dies on you from prolonged low lvl exposure to ammonia, and n2.


Ok... so, i will install that bio wheel, keep addin the seachem, and the ammo lock, the 10% dailies.. and then once im cycling like i should, how do i get rid of the friggin ammo lock and ammonia so when i do tests they read right?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

hrm.. if it says 1 capful for every 50, maybe just cut back ammo lock every 2-3 days.. That I don't know specifics, hopefully someone who knows more about ammolock can chime in.

Good news on the biowheel coming in.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> hrm.. if it says 1 capful for every 50, maybe just cut back ammo lock every 2-3 days.. That I don't know specifics, hopefully someone who knows more about ammolock can chime in.
> 
> Good news on the biowheel coming in.


Got the new setup yesterday. Opened the box and BOTH, yes BOTH of the bio wheel canister with legs broken off.... I was just goign to epoxy them back on but one was broke to where water would leak out, and i dont want to risk that... Ya know...


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

omg lol!!! well, you can stop using the stability for now, should have enough bacteria inside the emperor atm. just keep doing the waterchanges and the ammolock (use as directed).

As for getting rid of ammonia and ammolock, your biofiltration will be doing that. Bacteria eat ammonia and turn it into NO2, then another bacteria eats NO2 and turns it into NO3. Plants sometimes use NO3, but waterchanges are really what you use to get rid of that.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> omg lol!!! well, you can stop using the stability for now, should have enough bacteria inside the emperor atm. just keep doing the waterchanges and the ammolock (use as directed).
> 
> As for getting rid of ammonia and ammolock, your biofiltration will be doing that. Bacteria eat ammonia and turn it into NO2, then another bacteria eats NO2 and turns it into NO3. Plants sometimes use NO3, but waterchanges are really what you use to get rid of that.


Fish seem to be doing pretty good.. The pecsomus died... Well, he wasnt dead, but the other fish were chewin on his fins and he wouldnt swim away, then he just started doing barrel rolls for no reason... Guy was on his way out.  

Everyone else appears ok, i just keep doing the 10% and wait for my damn biofiltration to show up.....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

yep, Do a No2 check, and a No3 check. If you have NO No2 but you got alittle No3 your tank has cycled and you can stop using ammo-lock.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i am absolutely dumbfounded....


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

I know, it started out as something simple, completly fubar'd =)


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## vintagetankgirl (Feb 25, 2009)

Hi! 

Can I say this has been fun to follow?! 

I love reading up on new filters, but what kept me reading here was the use of fish to cycle. Especially goldfish and tropical fish mixed. I am personally an advocate for fishless cycling whether it is by adding fish food, shrimp or pure ammonia. I don't believe on hurting fish even inexpensive feeders.

My questions are for the original poster.

Why did you decide to go with fish cycling?

Why are you using coldwater fish to cycle a tropical setup? 

What are you planning to do with the Goldfish once the cycle is completed. 

Which by the way, if done fishless could have been done in 2 weeks, especially if using Stability. I've had a 29 gallon cycle with all new accessories in 10 days using pure ammonia and Stability (ran heater at 88F and kept lights on 24/7).

I'm just curious...and I hope I didn't add to the confusion you've been going through!
)

Also good luck! Trust me once everything works out you get to enjoy the hobby instead of stressing over it!


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

lohachata said:


> i am absolutely dumbfounded....



I dont really know how to respond to this. The fact that i tried cycling the tank and didnt have the correct bio filter, or the horrible misinformation i recieved from the pet store, or something im not to clear on. Please, feel free to explain what your dumbfounded by? 

Maybe its the fact you have an awesome member like tosh that walked me through this hole process.


vintagetankgirl said:


> Hi!
> 
> 
> I love reading up on new filters, but what kept me reading here was the use of fish to cycle. Especially goldfish and tropical fish mixed. I am personally an advocate for fishless cycling whether it is by adding fish food, shrimp or pure ammonia. I don't believe on hurting fish even inexpensive feeders.
> ...



Wow, first of all, where the heck were you in the beginning. I was getting some pretty crappy information from the petstore. I kinda believed them at first because, well, they are a damn pet store..

I went with fish cycling because i listened to the store.. Plain and simple. I had the tank setup for 2 friggin weeks and i had NOTHING. no no2,no3, nothing. I didnt realize my filter that i thought was a bio filter wasnt. Thats what did me in..

Cold water fish and a tropical setup??? Man, i dont know... I have no answer to that because i didnt think about what fish are tropical or what arent. All i know is my shark gets along with the tiger barbs and everyone else gets along with the gold fishies.... Happy family. The whole process i lost my 2 mollies and my pecosotmus. Im truely bummed about that and think that wouldnt of happened if i didnt stray and listen to the pet store place..

As for the gold fish, i plan on just slapping in an Oscar and let him grow up and eat everyone else.... 



Kidding. I like the gold fish. Very active and pretty. I dont plan on doing anything with any of em. 80 degrees 7.4 ish ph and i think they all should be good?? 

One question i have now that everything appears to be in line is the tank has algea in it now and i wanted to know if i should wipe that off the glass or just let it stay and get a pecosomus..?


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

So you got everything setup and it's all good now??

As for algea, it's usually a sign of overfeeding, cut back on the amount of food, and let the pleco eat what he can and then wipe it off


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> So you got everything setup and it's all good now??
> 
> As for algea, it's usually a sign of overfeeding, cut back on the amount of food, and let the pleco eat what he can and then wipe it off


Pleco died.  Overfeeding, im always wondering if im doin that. I feed them twice a day, and i use about 2 pinches, sometimes a pinch and a half. ahah... They always appear to be friggin starving.

So i can wipe off the algea then.. good. Its not to bad i can just see little spots.. 

This weekend i will be leaving friday night and come back sunday... Is it ok they go without food all saturday and then till about 4pm on sunday???


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

Fish are like dogs they'll eat untill they're sick and then eat some more.

As for feeding schedual basically you want one day out of the week in which they do not get fed anything. That helps to keep em healthy and regular.

And if it's just a few spots of algae then you ain't over feeding. Overfeeding you can tell when your tank water goes green on you and algae starts to grow on everything.

btw. Fish will learn how to beg, and look very pitifull. So be strong and don't give in. My betta's and discus know how to beg real well. it's hard not to throw em a snack.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

Yes you can leave your fish for the weekend without fear of them dying from starvation  

You can get away with 2 weeks of no feeding for many fish, but not all, and I would never recommend this. But if you are ever leaving for just 3-4 days then feed well upon leaving, come back and feed well. Then resume normal feeding routine. 

The most I would feel comfortable leaving my fish unfed would be a week. When I go on vacation I make packets for each tank and write days/dates on the envelope. Then my house sitter just dumps the packet into the tank and does not have to do anything else. I set these up for every other day so if it is just my cat and fish that are home she does not have to come everyday. If the dog is here she stays the whole time anyway.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> Fish are like dogs they'll eat untill they're sick and then eat some more.
> 
> As for feeding schedual basically you want one day out of the week in which they do not get fed anything. That helps to keep em healthy and regular.
> 
> ...


IT wasnt a ton of algae. Just a bit here and there.. I feed them twice a day, sometimes 3 times... I do about 2 pinches..... Very unscientific. I have dropped down to twice a day now 2 pinches. 



Obsidian said:


> Yes you can leave your fish for the weekend without fear of them dying from starvation
> 
> You can get away with 2 weeks of no feeding for many fish, but not all, and I would never recommend this. But if you are ever leaving for just 3-4 days then feed well upon leaving, come back and feed well. Then resume normal feeding routine.
> 
> The most I would feel comfortable leaving my fish unfed would be a week. When I go on vacation I make packets for each tank and write days/dates on the envelope. Then my house sitter just dumps the packet into the tank and does not have to do anything else. I set these up for every other day so if it is just my cat and fish that are home she does not have to come everyday. If the dog is here she stays the whole time anyway.



Awesome. thank you very much.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Ok, everything is good now. Zero ammonia. Im going to clean the blue mesh and wanted to know a few questions. My plan is to take a 10 gallon bucket and use my old fish water to clean the blue mesh so i dont kill all the bacteria like Tosh recommended.
Questions
1) my pollyfill, do i just replace that or do i clean that in the tank water?

2) Just rinse the blue mesh in the fish water??? The 20% im changing i mean...


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

yeah, just wash everything in the old water. Polyfill just break apart and swish around and squeeze. I have yet to buy new filters. I just keep washing em.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

Toshogu said:


> yeah, just wash everything in the old water. Polyfill just break apart and swish around and squeeze. I have yet to buy new filters. I just keep washing em.


Tosh, you here? Questions. It has been awhile, fish have all been good. i am now running into an issue.. my PH level is to low, ya, low. 6.0 low. 

questions:
do i ever replace the polyfill? I have just been taking it out, cleaning it in tank water that i have removed... I havent replaced any filters, just cleaned it in tank water... obv. not the tank water the fish are swimming in, the water i removed during changes...

How do i lower my ph level? I do a 20% water change once a month... Is that not enough??


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

you need to do about a 30% water change "every" week..not every month.
make sure you vacuum the gravel well also.PH drop can be from driftwood..dead and decaying plants and overfeeding..


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

lohachata said:


> you need to do about a 30% water change "every" week..not every month.
> make sure you vacuum the gravel well also.PH drop can be from driftwood..dead and decaying plants and overfeeding..


Well, thats what i did wrong. I have been over feeding lately i think because they just always seem to be starving.. And i was DEFINETLY not doing 30% everyweek....

So, im going to vacuum gravel and do water changes 20% daily for a week to get caught back up????


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

lohachata said:


> you need to do about a 30% water change "every" week..not every month.
> make sure you vacuum the gravel well also.PH drop can be from driftwood..dead and decaying plants and overfeeding..


I have no real wood or real plants. How often should i clean the filter.. once a month on the filter???


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

watch the flow of the outlet..when it slows down a bit ; it is time to clean it.


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## lyrikz (Jul 31, 2009)

lohachata said:


> watch the flow of the outlet..when it slows down a bit ; it is time to clean it.


Doesnt ever seem to slow. ahaha...

As for my bio filters, should i shake them off every once in awhile in the tank water that im replacing??? Neve rrinse with tap water, but with the fish water...


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