# Your Attention, Please:



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

There are going to be some changes around here, and while some of you will like them, some of you won't. Such is life. However, these changes are necessary to ensure that FishForums remains a good place for people to talk about fishkeeping and make friends. 
Sadly, we have been having some problems lately which have been tarnishing our little community's image. We have some big plans in the works for making some changes here which will really knock your socks off, but until we fix some problems we would only be wasting our time with these. 

After an investigation, we have discovered that we have two main problems which simply cannot be ignored any longer. It turns out that these are THE PRIMARY reasons our chat is no longer thriving and our auctions no longer draw users.

The first is a matter of attitude and lack of respect. To be more precise, most of our former auction users and many other highly experienced members have left FishForums due to the fact that they kept finding themselves assailed constantly by "snotnosed kids" and other clueless wonders who, despite not having any substantive fishy knowledge of their own, nonetheless saw fit to repeatedly harangue them with a barrage of contradictions, arguments, and other annoyances both in chat and in the forums. I have seen this myself, and while I often thought it funny that some noob was trying to tell a 30-year veteran that he was wrong about something, even funnier still was when the noob invariably was the one who was wrong, but alas, the experienced fishkeepers only got fed up with it and left, leaving us with our current mostly-novice population. Said one guy I really hated to see leave: _"...it's just a bunch of noobs helping noobs now, and anybody with an actual clue trying to help is only asking for trouble..."_

FishForums is not like most other fishboards. This is not some big game of King-of-the-hill where everyone fights for supremacy, and even if it was, it still pays to know who you are tangling with before you start to hurl arguments and insults. We don't currently use a member ratings system here, but one is certainly available to us. We decided against it's use long ago to avoid hurt feelings, but it seems we have plenty of hurt feelings anyway, so we may well be forced to resort to something like that if all the CRAP doesn't come to a screeching halt, and immediately. How stupid would YOU look, with your 2 stars, trying to tell a 5-star member that you know more than he does? Doesn't sound fun, does it? Well, how do you think those 30-year hobbyists feel when told they are stupid by some noob who has been keeping fish for, oh wow, almost a WHOLE YEAR!

We need people of all knowledge areas and skill levels here at FishForums if we are to thrive. Right now we do have that good mix, but the most experienced members aren't posting as much as they would if they could only do so without a lot of hassle. That hassle will now STOP. If you find that someone is giving bad advice, you will no longer flame that person or stomp all over his/her post in an effort to make yourself look like hot stuff. You will remain friendly and tactful, and simply ask for some more information. There s a good chance that thatother person might actually have a bit of knowledge that you lack, and you might actually learn something. On the other hand, it's certainly just as likely that the other person is indeed a ninny and needs to be corrected, since a lot of people like to post stuff just for the sake of posting something without regard for what they're actually saying. In such an instance, simply post your opinion on the matter and explain why you think you are correct. We do have a LOT of beginners here at FishForums and they do need a lot of good, accurate advice, so it is important to make sure that they can get that advice. Always feel free to post whatever you want, as always, as long as it's on-topic for that thread, of course. We want an environment where everyone can be free to share knowledge and ideas without criticism, and by golly, that's what we are going to get. OR ELSE!

Big changes have been in the works for a long time around here, but all of our attempts to lure the required expert hobbyists here have failed time and again due to this stuff, and that's why we haven't gotten much accomplished. There is no more time for talk and hand-wringing on this issue. If you are caught hassling someone, YOU ARE GONE. You are expendable, in the greater scheme of things, and we can no longer allow FishForums to be dragged down on account of this silliness. We hate to have to resort to any unpleasantness, but on the other hand, we are trying to build a great community here, and we need people who are part of the solution instead of the problem.

Don't take this to mean that beginners are unwelcome. Beginners are always welcome, and always welcome to ask whatever questions they need to ask. It's why FishForums is even here, after all, and we certainly enjoy our reputation of being a beginner's board. We want to be a lot more than that, though, like we used to be, and to that end we simply must clamp down on the things which drag us down the most. Feel free to ask away without any fear of being ridiculed by anyone, and please show the same respect to others. Is that really too much to ask? One other thing I want to emphasize is that we are not trying to discourage people from making posts, even bad ones. If you think you know the answer to someone's question, then by all means, please answer it. Don't hesitate because you fear you might get hassled about it. THAT is what we are trying to stop. If you are right, great. If you're wrong, then you'll learn something new soon afterward. Win/Win baby!

Now for the second thing:

Our chatroom used to be a fun and happening place, but nowadays it's a virtual ghost town. The reasons for this, we have learned, are very similar to the things mentioned already. Rudeness is the main thing, but in the chatroom it tends to go to a much greater extreme.

First of all, it must be pointed out for those with no command of the obvious that ours is a chatroom with a focus on FISHKEEPING. It is fine to discuss other things, but should a fishkeeping topic arise, from now on that topic will reign supreme until resolved. What that means is simply this: When somebody asks a fish question in the chatroom, all other discussion will halt until that question is answered or otherwise politely addressed. 
You don't have to talk about only fish in the main room, which is good since you certainly wouldn't anyway, but if a fishy topic arises, let it get covered and move on. We have lost a lot of members due to their inability to actually discuss fish in our fish chatroom, and that can no longer be allowed to continue. We have some really big plans for our chat in the works, complete with celebrites and everything, but if we can't keep to the fishy topics at hand we won't get very far with these projects. 
By the way, this isn't an online dating service, gay or straight, or a place to sell various goods of questionable legality. If you are caught trying to sell dope to a member or sexually harass another in any way, then you are GONE. I'm not talking about a chatboot or a 3 day ban, either, but a permanent ban from FishForums and possibly a visit from the authorities. That's right. We have a lot of minors here at FishForums, and we have a duty to keep them safe.

Ah, the minors....
Ironically, it's those same minors who in fact cause most of the real trouble around here. Since we don't bar minors from using our chat, we naturally attract a whole bunch of them. That's fine and dandy, but you kids listen up to what I'm about to tell you: GROW UP! Quit acting like a bunch of morons as soon as you get behind your keyboards. For some reason many of you think it's perfectly okay to act all crazy online. You use language you'd never use at home, you insult people because you think it's fun, and you constantly room-hop for no good reason, much to the annoyance of others. Stop it. Stop it right now. To tell you the truth, you kids are causing us a LOT of problems in our chatroom, but we would rather not be forced to ban you from the chatroom simply due to your age. Therefore, we will ban you for better reasons instead, on an individual basis, and ban you HARD if you don't shape up and pronto. Highly experienced fishkeepers tend to be a lot older than you kids, and their patience for your shenannigans is very thin. This has cost us a lot of really good members, members who could have helped you with your own problems someday but are no longer here to do so. You beginners need all the help you can get, and your own actions are costing you that help.

This is the part where things get ugly...

Our chatroom was intended to help us grow our site in the direction we wanted it to go, as it was supposed to be a crucial tool used in many of our new features. However, the various abuses that have occurred have instead retarded the growth of FishForums dramatically. This is unacceptable. We regret that it has had to come to this, but if these problems do not come to an end immediately we may well have to do something very drastic. Until then, though, what we will be doing instead is cracking down hard on these offenses and others I failed to mention but which should be obvious enough when they happen. A little bit of silliness is okay, and what good is a community where people don't talk to each other and have fun, eh? However, when things get out of hand, they will be stopped. You will get one warning from a Moderator, and only one. After that, if you continue to cause trouble, you will be oh-so-very banned, and permanently. We can't afford to keep you around when you only bring us down, and from now on, we no longer will. Sorry about that, but we are facing the very survival or demise of FishForums. It's you or us. We choose us. 

Grow up. 
Show some respect for others.
Learn about fish.
Have fun.

If we can put an end to the things which are ruining FishForums for everyone, repair the damage already done and restore FF to it's former glory, then we have some very nice surprises in store for you. Even now I'm lining up celebrity guests to appear in our chat to lead discussions on various topics actually related to fishkeeping, and we're working on the infrastructure we need to get all of our present and planned contests up and running. After that, well, I can't say just yet because it's never been done before and I don't want anybody else to beat us to it, but trust me, it's gonna be a doozy. The entire internet fish community is going to sit up and take notice of THIS one, and you lucky people will be able to be the first to enjoy it. So please, help us out here, and help yourselves, by behaving yourselves for a change.


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## Kageshi17 (Sep 6, 2006)

Sorry..........I hope I never caused any trouble. I guess laughing at the arguments probably doesnt help.

I feel ashamed. I offer my sincerest apologies. Thank you for fish forums. I couldnt have asked for a better place to find advice and support. I will never take it for granted ever again, if I ever did, but just to be safe, never again!


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## TigerBarb12 (Jan 7, 2007)

yeah, i feel bad, i could help people play better basketball, because im very good at it, these guys help people keep fish, because they are very good at it, if i did any harm, im very sorry.


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## audiman (Oct 1, 2006)

Im a "noob" too. Do we have to have a special noob area as we dont know anything? Im new to all this so the only way i can learn is by asking questions. Maybe sometimes they are stupid to you lot, but to me they are not.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

audiman said:


> Im a "noob" too. Do we have to have a special noob area as we dont know anything? Im new to all this so the only way i can learn is by asking questions. Maybe sometimes they are stupid to you lot, but to me they are not.


There's no such thing as a stupid question, never stop asking & learning


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## Osiris (Jan 18, 2005)

Asking questions is where we begin to further ourselves in development. 

Take for example, a woman:

You see this girl, your head over heels for, you ain't ever gonna know if u have a chance unless u ask. 

-Philospher in women


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## mudskipper26 (Nov 30, 2006)

yep...sry if i cause any trouble. but i did realise many people talk about pointless things in the chatrrom and if i would ask i question no one would answer, ocassionally someone would give a simple answer that didn't help much but i hope that changes.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

The problem isn't noobs asking questions. Heck, that's why they're here in the first place. The problem is smart-alecky noobs who think they know a LOT more than they do getting into bitter arguments with seasoned veterans who have already forgetten more than those wiseacres will probably ever know. It's annoying in the extreme, and it's costing us good members.
Everyone should always feel free to ask their questions and make their comments, but don't go starting trouble. That's all we ask. FishForums isn't like most of the other boards where flamewars are encouraged.


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

TheOldSalt said:


> The problem isn't noobs asking questions. Heck, that's why they're here in the first place. The problem is smart-alecky noobs who think they know a LOT more than they do getting into bitter arguments with seasoned veterans who have already forgetten more than those wiseacres will probably ever know. It's annoying in the extreme, and it's costing us good members.
> Everyone should always feel free to ask their questions and make their comments, but don't go starting trouble. That's all we ask. FishForums isn't like most of the other boards where flamewars are encouraged.


Lmao, i've probably participated in a few of them already.

As for the younger viewer comment- I guess so. But there are a lot of older users that also cause problems, just making sure it doesn't totally sound like were the cause of every problem .

I've only been in this hobby (like. really into it) for about 5 years- but i'm still into a lot of things. I try helping anyone who takes it- but being fifteen kind of limits a lot of the people that choose to listen.


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## Ringo (Apr 10, 2006)

flamingo said:


> I try helping anyone who takes it- but being fifteen kind of limits a lot of the people that choose to listen.


I figured that out a while ago, thats why I don't ever really post anymore


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## railinsp (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm haven't posted on this site much and haven't been on this site but I do look at posts that interest me and like ole salt says got a lot more coming down the pike. We should all respect each other and what ever our age is if we know our subject it doesn't matter if we are 15 or a hundred. what is important is respect


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## Gump (Aug 2, 2006)

Im a little mixed on the message that the old salt is giving out. Im down for a civil forum where infomation is abundant and given to all who will listen. But it really bothers me when you start to lable low posters as noobs, or look at a low poster as someone that doesnt have as much experence as someone who has been here for a while. To me that is not a good message to spread.

I really dont think I fit in on this site as my fish keeping intrests are a lot different than most of the people on this site but thats really the only reason I am here. I like bringing a different way to look at the hobby and show people there are many different areas of fish keeping.

As of now ill stick around but with some of the talk in the first post will keep my eyes open a little to whats happening on this site.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

*sigh*

That's not the message at all, Gump. Postcount has nothing to do with it, and I don't see where you even got that idea. 
As for experience, all I'm saying is that those with lesser experience should quit going around picking fights with those who lave lots of it. ( or anyone else, for that matter ) It's annoying to those who have lots of it, and they're leaving on account of it. Haven't you ever found yourself stuck in an argument with some goober who had no idea what he was talking about, and you couldn't even make him understand THAT he was wrong, let alone why?

For example, one guy I talked to the other day said that some kid was telling him that he'd never be able to raise baby bettas in a full 10 gallon tank, and that he'd have to lower the level to only 4 inches to be successful. This kid jumped into the middle of a conversation and told him that, and not very politely, as I understand, without even bothering to find out first that the first guy has been raising bettas for decades in full tanks, thank you very much.
( as have I, for that matter )
That's almost funny, but the rudeness of the kid was the most annoying part. You say you like to "bring a different way to look at the hobby", eh? That's fine, just don't expect someone to see any reason to change after decades of success just on your say-so, and more importantly don't go starting fights because of it, which is exactly what this whole thread is all about. THAT'S the problem. There has been a lot of that sort of thing happening lately, and it's going to have to stop.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2007)

Posting blame on the young members and posting blame on the less "seasoned veterans" is interesting. Good luck  i truely hope fishforums can get back to the way it once was. i just dont know if this is the thing that will do that


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Young or old has nothing to do with it. It's just that the younger crowd seems to be the ones that get irate and start calling names. But I have seen some older folks do it too. We are talking about ANYONE giving completely ridiculous information and then getting mad and calling names when someone who knows from experience challenges or disagrees with them.

Example:
SN new poster: "I would like to get 2 comet goldfish for my 5 gal aquarium. Please give me some advice."

SN Experienced: "You can't keep 2 comet goldfish in a 5 gal aquarium, they get way too big and even if they don't grow much it's because they have become stunted and will likely die."

SN New fish keeper: " That is crap, my grandmother kept 5 goldfish in a 5 gal tank for 5 yrs and they were fine. Fish won't outgrow their environment."

SN Experienced: "I find it hard to believe that 5 goldfish lived for 5 yrs in a 5 gal tank. And the reason (if they really did survive) that they didn't get very big is because they were stunted, which is cruel to the fish."

SN New Fish keeper: "Well I've been keeping fish for many years (glance at sig and see they are 14 yrs old) and I know that it won't hurt the fish. And what right do you have calling me a liar? IMO you're just a _________"

Get the picture? Thats what has been going on and that is what we want to avoid. Old or young if a person with some knowledge and experience gives advice and someone else gives their ideas of opinions, all parties involved should be mature and keep the debate civil and clean.

I have only been in the hobby a few months. I have learned some and can advise a newb to an extent but I would never think of starting an argument with someone like TOS or SueM on a subject that I'm sure they have loads more experience with. And if I give someone wrong advice I hope someone WILL correct me (politely and civilly) so not only to avoid disaster for the person I incorrectly advised but so I can learn too.


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## (RC) (Jan 18, 2005)

Arguments here ? I though that ended when Dogs&Fish left  But really we have always had a few members that seem to just need to start problems, but just being young doesn't make you a problem. I know plenty old guys that are just as quick to start calling people names. It's really just a matter of respect more then age. People act different behind the keyboard then they do in person because the threat of bodily harm isn't there when you call someone an ******* on the net. Just treat everyone with respect and we'll all be ok.:console: 


RC


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## greggolf (Sep 25, 2006)

*Wow*

Im sorry if i did anything wrong, its a hobby and it sure is fun, but we all gotta keep intouch withhour self and what we say. I also have noticed the sudden decrease in chat, thats terrible.


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## SvenRhapsody (Feb 3, 2006)

Personally, the occasional antagonism that has taken place here hasn't upset me too much. It's the general lowering of the quality of the information and discussion that has led me to just skim through new posts and read one or two instead of reading, participating, and chatting as much as I do. Every time I see someone ask if they can put 2 oscars in their 10gal I just get plain frustrated, and that sort of question is extremely common on this site. There is being a beginner and then their is being to lazy to use google or read a single article. At the same time, the overly protective responses are just as annoying. I get perturbed every time I see another thread noting how cruel this practice is, or how disturbing that hybrid fish is. This hobby is wide and varied. Fishkeeping goes from uninterested people keeping goldfish in bowls to breeders breeding rare fish. I respect people's right to have an opinion on certain practices, but I get tired of hearing them in every third post. We all come to terms with the morality of this hobby on our own terms.

Both of the above types of discussion just degrade the value of discussions here overall. There's not much information any more about specific tactics, species, waters, equipment or anything. It's more about "how should I stock my 20?", or "what can I put in my 55?", or "I want to grow plants how do i do it?", or "how can people keep fish in bowls?" 

Just my $.02. Thanks for having FF and thanks for your ongoing efforts to make it as good as possible.

Sven


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## Puffer Pita (Jun 16, 2006)

SvenRhapsody said:


> Every time I see someone ask if they can put 2 oscars in their 10gal I just get plain frustrated, and that sort of question is extremely common on this site.


You mean like this ad on Craigslist.com today?

_I am trying to get rid of 5 red belly piranhas about the lenghth of a lighter. They will eat anything you throw into the tank basically including live goldfish. Also included are blue rocks to cover the bottom, an air pump and a 20gallon long tank. *$$$$$120*_


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## lochness (Jan 10, 2006)

Kudos TOS - I am looking forward to the changes. The work involved in running the boards, maintaining them and keeping them interesting and informative is immense and sadly, too often overlooked or taken for granted. Much thanks and gratitude to those that do all the work. I am a member of several boards, some are to the extreme where the mods, tho knowledgeable, act like FishGods and disregard ANY possible additional info you might add that *disrupts their little world of fish resources* and then there are other boards that lack any structure and meander but are highly friendly and open. Fishforums.com is my happy medium - but I did notice a decline recently and I'm so glad you (the mods) are addressing this. I hope the Vets that left return when they see these changes implemented. 

cheers!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I hope so, too.

I also hope that we don't swing the pendulum too far the other way, either. I wouldn't want to see us become a place like the ones you just described, where only a few "correct" opinions are allowed. Now, accuracy and correctness are very important indeed, but so is respect and openness. While I've been harping on the kids and novices to quit causing trouble, that message also goes to the experienced keepers. 
I got a PM today from a poster who felt he was being bullied by others. I went to check out the thread in question and sure enough, he was indeed being bullied. On the other hand, he kinda had it coming to him, since he kept steadfastly defying the others by repeating the same misinformation that got them on his case in the first place, adamantly refusing to consider that they might be right. *sigh* In such cases I have to admit that I can't feel much sympathy for the guy, but as a Moderator I must, so I have to say that this respect and cooperation stuff is going to have to go both ways if it's going to work. Don't go laying the smackdown on people who post incorrect info. Just post the right info and hope for the best without getting drawn into an argument.


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## mayastarocker (Dec 29, 2006)

I am very pleased with this website and I'm new to these kind of websites. Above, when Gump mentioned that when people assume that when they have low postings, that don't mean that they don't have any experience. I have had fish for about 5 years but I just started posting last December when I found FF. I agree with TheOldSalt, some people are just out there to start something. If they are just posting to start something, they should not even be on FF.


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