# What else is there?



## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

My poor Moor has been upside down for a month. He has always had swim bladder issues, but I think this is his longest stretch of upside-downness. Is there anything moor (get it?) I can do?? I feed him peas as well as pellet food that is soaked in water for up to twenty minutes. I tried not feeding him for a few days and then feeding him the peas. Is there a possibility this is now a permanent state for him? Or can he somehow swim upright again after 4 weeks of being turned over? I can't leave the light on in the tank or it burns his belly, so my tank is dark and not even very aesthetic anymore, which isn't the main issue but still. What can I do?

Andrea


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## grfury (Feb 2, 2011)

Ok a few things you need to do:
1) check your water. If you have high NitrAtes (yes the A is capitalized on purpose), then that could be the root source of your problem. Vacuum your gravel thoroughly, then do a partial water change every day. See if he rights himself. You may also wish to consider getting a larger tank, larger tank means more water to dilute ammonia and nitrate

If is isn't your nitrates we move on to...Parasites...

2) We now need to look for signs of parasitic infection:


Excessive flashing, over abudnance of slime, red eyes, dark red or brown gills, general lethargy.

If your Moor has any of these signs give him a dose of a commercial parasite medication (look for something that contains Formalin 3).

If that is not it we come to GAS...yes GAS.

3) Gold fish are prone to excessive gas in the GI tract. You are already feeding him peas, so I don't think it's gas. However you can try buying a commercial gel goldfish food, then adding acidophilus, Kanamycin Sulfate, and Metronidazole, to treat an over abundance of gastro-intestinal fauna. One ml of each per 20 grams of food.

The final option...

4) Sometimes it is time to say good bye. If your fish is in distress, then is his life really worth living? There are humane ways to say good bye I will outline two of them here.

i) Finquel, the trade name for Tricaine Methanesulfonate or TMS. This is what we use in the University setting to dispatch fish for research. You can purchase it online and some LFSs will carry it as well. Expect to spend 30 dollars for a 50ml bottle. I CAN NOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH KEEP IT AWAY FROM OTHER PETS AND CHILDREN.

ii) The Clove Oil method. Clove oil is natural, and essentially you anesthetize your fish with the clove oil (a few drops in the bucket), then dispatch in another method. Or you can use an obscene dose and dispatch the fish that way. 

Finally in closing, NEVER FLUSH A LIVE FISH. They die from the chlorine burning their gills, and mucous membranes. If you do this you may as well buy yourself a swastika and start goose stepping.

Jokes aside, good luck Andrea.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, he beat me to it, but a belly-up goldfish usually has gas, and if it lasts this long, it's probably an infection.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

What is flashing??? He doesn't seem to have problems with the color of his eyes and he is a bit lethargic, but only because he is upside down I think. He still scoots around just not as much as when he is right side up. 

I can take water to the pet store tomorrow to have them test my nitrates, I haven't done that in awhile. I don't have gravel, I have marbles. Do I still need to clean them thoroughly? I just recently had a post about how they are covered in dark green algae but people didn't seem to think that was a problem. 

I could NEVER flush Dennis down the toilet! I have nightmares about it! Truly! There is a mountain near my residence called Manastash and I frequently hike it. If he ever goes (and he has had many close calls) , I have decided to bury him on that mountain because I don't think many fish ever get grand views in their lifetimes....

I'll do everything I can before I resort to that.


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## grfury (Feb 2, 2011)

Flashing means scraping up against the glass, tank decorations etc. You need to clean your substrate thoroughly whether it's sand, gravel, marbles etc in this instance since the bacteria that could be causing your problem are found in the highest concentrations in the substrate. If Dennis is buried on Manastash Ridge I'm pretty sure he will be the only fish in the history of world to have seen that particular vista.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

You know the ridge?! Where are you from?


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## AvocadoPuffDude (Jan 20, 2011)

I have never heard of a fish, swimming upside down, ever "recovering" and getting well to the point it swam upright again.
Whatever the problem is, there's 2 things to consider:
1. It may well be distressed or in whatever amounts to pain in the teeny tiny mind of the goldfish.
2. The fact that it's still alive is a testament to your care, but know you are only prolonging the inevitable, and possibly doing harm (causing it stress, allowing it to infect it's tankmates, etc.)
Depending on local laws, (some states it's illegal to flush 'em) my advice is to euthanize via the porcelain bowl, or whatever form of euthanasia you find most acceptable.


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## AvocadoPuffDude (Jan 20, 2011)

I've heard if you freeze them it's supposed to be less cruel. I don't know that personally, but I've heard that. I've also heard of using clove oil to euthanize, again, with no personal knowledge of either method.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

They can recover. Dennis used to swim upside down about a year ago, or maybe a bit longer, and I started feeding him peas and he didn't swim upside down again until recently. Except this time I can't seem to fix it.

Call me cruel, or call me weak, but I don't know if I can Euthanize my pet.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

"The fact that it's still alive is a testament to your care"

Thanks for that. Too often I feel like the people on this website think I'm a fish killer who is deliberately trying to kill my pet. I wouldn't be on here asking questions if that were the case, but you may be the first person to suggest that I adequately care for my pet. So thank you.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

Is this stuff good for parasite treatment??
http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Prod...1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1297048401&sr=1-1

Also, if he DOESN'T have a parasite, will this stuff hurt him?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

quick cure is good for ich and fungus, I don't think it does much for internal parasites and yes, formalin is toxic enough to do some harm if the fish is sensitive. Prazi-Pro is good for an in-the-water internal parasite treatment (medicated food is better). But you might want to treat for bacteria. I also remember something about an epsom salt treatment for floating fish, but can't recall the source. Do some googling.


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## grfury (Feb 2, 2011)

Epsom salt is very similar to aquarium salt chemically speaking. I have listed the necessary medications that are also available and could be added to gel food as I said previously. Quick Cure is my go-to med for most issues. However if that doesn't work (and it will kill sensitive fish), you are going to have to use the antibiotics/ probiotics I mentioned earlier. The reality is Andrea, the medications that would work are worth more than the fish but hey it's your call.

As for how I know the ridge my cousin and her husband are both professors at WSU.


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## AndrealvsDennis (May 13, 2010)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0ZD0QFQVGEV8SFGED27X

Another website recommended this
http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Cycline-...ie=UTF8&s=miscellaneous&qid=1297050433&sr=1-2

I read about the salt bath. The site I read said to put 1 teaspoon of salt in a gallon and put Dennis in there for 30 minutes before returning him to a clean tank. 

Also, everything I am reading is suggesting that I try to treat bacteria before trying to treat parasites. Is this good or bad information???

Thanks


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Since bacteria kill fish more quickly and more susceptible to meds than parasites, it makes sense to treat for bacteria first if you think a fish has one or the other. 

MgSo4 is not similar in my mind at all to NaCl. But I get your drift. Treatments that are using 'salt' to help a fish with "osmoregulation"? would work(or not work) regardless of which ions were used.

I have heard of people who kept an 'upside down' goldfish alive for 2 years.


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## grfury (Feb 2, 2011)

That is exactly what I was getting at emc7, I should have been more clear. Bottom line ions are ions. Sorry about that.


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