# Proof God is real.



## Knight~Ryder

*Supporting evidence for the theory of intelligent design in the creation of our world*

8 minutes of your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5lY0TcdAw

Understandable?


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## justintrask

im sorry. IMO, that was a waste of 3 minutes of my life. :-/

some people just don't believe, and im one of them.


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## Knight~Ryder

Doesnt really matter if you believe or not, doesnt mean its not real. Sometimes we need to check our reality. 
I'm not in it to debate. In fact it's not just a mental concept for me anymore. I live it and experience it. It's not enough for me to just "know" about God.

I forgot what I was taught about God, it's been all backwards anyhow, just like this life is. 

What I "know" is an experience.

I know thats one of the best videos Ive come across myself.


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## Maztachief

His ideas are fundamentally flawed. First off stating matter cannot be created or destroyed is a misconception, it simply cannot be created from nothing by people (the universe was created from essentially nothing so yes it can be created, there are a ton of theories regarding "branes" and other larger than our universe structures that gave rise to us through the big bang). Also, Matter can be transformed to and from energy, hence why the atomic bomb works, a very slight amount of the matter is converted into energy, this is also why we have the idea of the string theory. The parts of the universe (like time, energy, and matter, gravity etc) were all one and the same before the expansion of the big bang. Einstein's E=mc^2 unites the energy and mass parts of what we know to make up the universe. 

Secondly, we do not know if our universe is finite or not. Which destroys much of his basis for argument. Additionally, there are a variety of ideas regarding a multiverse approach to explain our universe. If there is an infinite number of "universes" then we have an infinite number of possibilities regarding the creation of rules for physics and such. This being so, by the nature of having an infinite amount of possibilities there will be at least one in which there are just the right conditions for our own universe to exist and give us life, statistically this is true. Personally, I believe in God, my studies in genetics, cellular biology, and other areas of biology (perhaps ironically) give me faith in a great designer. But, this guy seems a bit pretentious and he obviously is parroting something he heard without having looked at secular explanations for how the universe is as we perceive it. 

I believe discover had an interesting article on the multiverse in the last month or two. Here is an excellent interview about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rg3uNrI8tE

The idea that time is universal and concrete is also false. Clocks have been *proven* to move less quickly on very fast moving objects. Additionally heavy things like galaxies have been shown to bend light around them and even magnify objects farther behind them in a process known as gravitational lensing. Heavy things like black holes can also stretch and pull space around them. Doing so also bends and stretches time to slow it down around them as it's gravity bends the "fabric" of space/time around it. 

Also, thinking about God as an infallible and completely in-control being of sorts, the whole idea of being able to be saved by doing something seems to be a contract of sorts with Him. The covenant (think ark of the covenant which holds the written down rules given to Moses) is in direct defiance of God being in complete control. What is being all-mighty when you are bound to grant access to heaven to people if they follow some rules/believe in a certain religious figure? It seems really, that complete control would be completely randomness in acts, being that no person or thing can control what will happen next and that the supreme being would not have to follow any sort of deal with us. Interestingly, the randomness sure seems to fit the idea of a multiverse with infinite possibilities and we are just one of them. I personally don't prescribe to the random God, but it does raise a good thinking point. 

Bottom line: the guy is talking with an attitude and not taking into account many other ideas and basing his view on a narrow set of circumstances which are not necessarily true. And, watch that youtube clip. I thought this forum was mostly about fish?


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## Knight~Ryder

It is about fish. Whenever anyone talks about anything other then fish here in the water hole, it's a green light. As soon as it's about "God" it's a red light.

Anyhow thanks for the response 
Again, remember I can learn all I want about God, but when does it actually become a reality you know. I don't want to follow a religion and go to church as a ritual to find worth. 

Some folks say that all truth is relative. "It just depends on what you believe. No way we know for sure who God is and what's really true." But that means that you believe that that statement is true, "no way to know whats really true." If what's true for you is true for you, and what's true for me is true to me, what if one of my truths says your's is a lie? Is it still true?

I promise, most everyone is asking the same questions: "Who am I, what is my purpose and my direction?" Some think that they probably exist for no other reason than self-satisfaction, Hedonism, and pleasing things. "Life's about you getting your's and being happy, even if it means a divorce and switching families. Your job, your house, your car, your spouse..."

It's all for the glory of you?

"You go to school and get a degree and get a job so you make make a whole lot of money because life's hard." They never thought of living to please a real God. But that's the reason He made you. See, He gave you breath to breath and a chest to breath it, so you can taste and see He's the best. Believe it. He made us for His own own glory, and for your own. 

There's some people say "Man is the source of all meaning and purpose." They say that "we're just the result of some big cosmic explosion, we don't really have a purpose or meaning so we create our own purpose. We're the source of our own meaning." 

But how can a man, who is nothing but just a product of chance, be a source of meaning? We're created with purpose, by a Creator.

And everybody has a problem with God, and when you mention the Christ, then they really get to turning their knobs. But, some say they 'roll' with Christ, because some rappers make it seem like He's cool, with all that sin in their life? NO.

Some say, "How could God exist with all this evil stuff in the world keep persisting?" Wrong question. Ask again, "How come God isn't letting you feel the wrath for sin?" 

Sometimes, some of the stuff you see, that you think deserves a first class flight to hell (where God doesn't dwell), well, you got that right. But He brought back life on the Cross that night. Christ died, you didn't know it cost that price? Of all God's anger put on the Son. I praise God for the life that was won for us, even if the Son was crushed.

Some people say that God isn't real because they "can't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is all-powerful, then He should stop all this evil." But what is evil? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally wrong: it's murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop? The murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil we have to be consistent, we can't pick and choose.

That means that you and I would be eliminated, right, because we've done evil stuff? If that's true, then we should be eliminated. But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin. Christ died for our evil.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, *and take up his cross daily*, and follow me. For whoever would save his own life shall lose it; but whoever wants to lose his life for My sake will find it." - Luke 9:23-24


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## TheOldSalt

Well, this thread has been up & running for four hours so far, and so far there hasn't been a riot.
That's good. Keep it that way.


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## darkstar

I think the fact that he thinks the world is 6000 years old sums up how valid his reality is to the rest of us...


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## Sea-Agg2009

He uses the concepts taught in a basic logic class to try to prove something, except he has no base fact to base his hypothesis on, standard flaw from someone who clearly didn't pay attention in class. Here's a fact. We can carbon date rocks on earth to several billion years ago. Creationists argue that carbon dating can be somewhat skewed. Scientists will agree, in that carbon dating gives you a range of a few (around 3) thousand years. If you do the math, figure out how you go from a deviation of 3 thousand years, and magically get 6 thousand from 4 billion...

Second, the bible was used to teach society about the world, and about proper behavior and morality in a society that was often brutal and uncaring. The world was created in 7 days, then Adam and Eve was born. Where were the dinosaurs!?! Isn't it possible that the bible uses the context of "days" to be a length of time that the people of that era would understand? If that is true, then a day can be anything from 24 of our hours, to a lifetime, to a millennium. It's about context. 

The fact is that religion is a way for people to make sense of a world that we do not understand. It is a light for those in the dark, and gives hope to those who have none. I think religion is a critical aspect of society, because without it, people would feel they have no meaning in this ever-growing world. It originally gave answers to questions that an ordinary person could understand. Scientists do the same thing, just from a different perspective. If people are willing to be open minded about science, they will realize that science and religion often work together. 

During the 16th century, any scientist was executed for believing anything other than what the Vatican taught. Galileo was executed for believing the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the opposite taught by the church. In 1992, Pope John Paul II made the announcement that the Inquisition was wrong in it's opinion of the scientist, and now Pope Benedict XVI is honoring him this coming month. People who truly believe in this archaic form of science must also believe in the teachings of the 16th century Vatican, which we all know at this point to be a false truth. If not, the astronautics must be blind. If they choose what parts to believe and what to ignore, then what are they believing in? They say that people must completely believe in God, or they completely disagree with God, but they themselves are doing the same thing. 

If you believe the Bible is truly the world of God, then you should also understand that it is powerful enough to stand throughout time. The Bible is here as a guideline for moral judgment, and not a strict code that is the same now as it was when the pages were written.

I am catholic, and I study phylogenetics and evolutionary biology. It works, you just have to take the time to listen. 

PS. For the creationists out there.... how bout this. God is kinda busy, with the whole managing the universe, space, and time. We are just one spec in the Universe, and really aren't that significant in the "big picture". Why couldn't God have just CREATED evolution. I fail to see why people cannot accept that things change. Hell, we can show it in out own human lineage. It's complicated, I know... I'll simplify it. If something works, it stays. If it doesn't, it gets booted out. That is natural selection. It works, and has been working for Billions of years...

This is a great comic...Link


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## trashion

Nah, blind faith based on flawed assumptions and a poor understanding of logic has never been my thing.

There are many mysterious things that have happened in my life that I'm sure I could just say a higher power was responsible for, but I think that's a cop-out. There's a reason for everything, and an omnipotent god-figure doesn't factor into that.


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## Fishfirst

Sea-Agg2009 said:


> PS. For the creationists out there.... how bout this. God is kinda busy, with the whole managing the universe, space, and time. We are just one spec in the Universe, and really aren't that significant in the "big picture". Why couldn't God have just CREATED evolution. I fail to see why people cannot accept that things change. Hell, we can show it in out own human lineage. It's complicated, I know... I'll simplify it. If something works, it stays. If it doesn't, it gets booted out. That is natural selection. It works, and has been working for Billions of years...
> 
> This is a great comic...Link


I've been saying this for a long time. God CREATED GENES/EVOLUTION so that LIFE could SURVIVE on this planet. Without genes, this entire planet would be dead. The simple fact that humans have discovered GODS inner workings of providing humans everything they need to survive is a miricale in itself.


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## Maztachief

Sea-Agg2009 said:


> He uses the concepts taught in a basic logic class to try to prove something, except he has no base fact to base his hypothesis on, standard flaw from someone who clearly didn't pay attention in class. Here's a fact. We can carbon date rocks on earth to several billion years ago. Creationists argue that carbon dating can be somewhat skewed. Scientists will agree, in that carbon dating gives you a range of a few (around 3) thousand years. If you do the math, figure out how you go from a deviation of 3 thousand years, and magically get 6 thousand from 4 billion...


I agree with most of what you are saying but carbon dating is actually only useful up to about 60,000 years ago (although growing up my text books had always said 40k) and is only used for organic material. Carbon-14 is the radioactive isotope that we use to measure how long since the time the material stopped adding carbon to it. The idea of carbon-14 dating is that there is a certain amount in the atmosphere and plants fix it during photosynthesis in the form of sugars and such which animals eat. Animals get carbon from plants (or other animals which have in-tern eaten plants) and so there is a certain amount of carbon-14 incorporated in everything as our bodies (or whatever plant structures) work. Accumulation of it stops when the organism dies and using the half-life of the material you can get a general date for the time it existed. Carbon-14 is one of several radiometric forms of absolute dating we use but because it only has a half life of somewhere around 5700 years you'd need a huge chunk of organic material to still be around and FULL of it to date to billions of years, which just isn't the case as it is not that abundant to begin with. I'm surprised they haven't gone over dating techniques in your evolutionary biology courses? There are other techniques that can be used to date rock such as argon-potassium dating or even paleomagnetic dating which looks at the orientation of ferromagnetic materials in the rock which changes as the earth's magnetic field has fluctuated over time. I think an oxygen isotope dating may have been used on materials trapped in crystals for the earth's oldest dating. 

I'm not knocking what you said or anything, I totally agree with most of your post and its good to hear someone who also reconciled their faith with science as not mutually exclusive things!


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## Fishychic

trashion said:


> Nah, blind faith based on flawed assumptions and a poor understanding of logic has never been my thing.
> 
> There are many mysterious things that have happened in my life that I'm sure I could just say a higher power was responsible for, but I think that's a cop-out. There's a reason for everything, and an omnipotent god-figure doesn't factor into that.




If everything happens for a reason, isn't everything predetermined then? If so, then a deity would factor into that. What do you think?


Also, I was just curious, for those who do not believe in a higher being, what do you base your morals on?


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## mrmoby

Fishychic said:


> If everything happens for a reason, isn't everything predetermined then? If so, then a deity would factor into that. What do you think?
> 
> 
> Also, I was just curious, for those who do not believe in a higher being, what do you base your morals on?


How does believing in a higher power make a basis for morals? I believe in treating people in a way I want to be treated. That could be argued as a biblical reference I suppose, but to me, it seems that it is inborn common decency that I didnt need to read in a book or hear from a preacher. I'm far from being a perfect human being, but feel I have stronger morals than many who espouse the virtues of God and Jesus.


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## Fishychic

mrmoby said:


> How does believing in a higher power make a basis for morals? I believe in treating people in a way I want to be treated. That could be argued as a biblical reference I suppose, but to me, it seems that it is inborn common decency that I didnt need to read in a book or hear from a preacher. I'm far from being a perfect human being, but feel I have stronger morals than many who espouse the virtues of God and Jesus.


 I was just curious because MANY people base their morals off the scriptures of the bible and also the Ten commandments influences them as well. Yes, it influences them, don't think I said that they follow it accordingly. Everyone makes mistakes. 

Inborn common decency? What if God created that with the inborn sense?

If someone is an atheist, what stops them from feeling guilty about taking a life or stealing? Is there a general principle of what is "good" that applys to everyone? Where did it come from? Who says it's good? Premarital sex maybe ok and great for an atheist but its something devout Christians find offensive and intolerable. 

Also, you can't just assume that you have stronger morals than many who praise the virtues of God and Jesus. You may know a few "Christians" who do bad things but that doesn't mean that all Christians are like them. 


Morals aren't just based on the Golden rule.


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## shev

Heh, I recall the last religious debate here. I think it started in the "I love science" thread. This thread is much more directly to the point. The Political Views thread was constrained to the election, so i bet this thread will be locked up after the holidays are over. 


Anyway, I love these threads. You never really know other people's views until they can say them anonymously over the internet, most people aren't as confrontational in real life. I hope it doesn't get locked too soon.

With that being said, I'll jump in on the religious morals point. The human conscience has been with us longer than any scripture. Whether our morals are based on religion or not doesn't make them any "better". If you aren't killing people just because you believe you'll be punished in an afterlife, then that's not really a conscience. I don't need to know I'll be punished if I'm bad in order to be a decent person. 


Human morals are universal. From culture to culture, and religion to religion, the basic morals are still there. Sure, there are "Artificial morals and rules" created by certain religions, like fishychic said, premarital sex is one. These rules are completely arbitrary unless attached to some religious meaning, so they aren't the universal ones I'm talking about. Not killing or stealing are two basic human morals, and I think they're "based", like everything else of ours, through an evolutionary purpose. You may say some religions or cultures stealing and murder are more common, but:


> You may know a few "Christians" who do bad things but that doesn't mean that all Christians are like them.


applies to every religion.



Oh yeah, one other thing. The kid on youtube is just using kent hovind's arguments, word for word actually in a lot of cases. Just goes to show his argument, and everyone else's about religion is going in one giant circle. It will repeat itself, I've seen a million of these threads on other forums, they always come down to the same points. So by saying this kid's video is "proof" of anything other than his devotion to that religion is a bit out of touch.


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## Maztachief

The argument of morals being based in faith is really a switched up idea. Morals don't come from faith (although it can reinforce them), but rather, the morals set forth by a faith are determined by circumstance and environment and written down into religious text. Before police and large government who could control a group's actions better than God?

Across the planet there are many different religions, family/society structures, and rules regarding how to live your life. Generally speaking, these rules are for the benefit of group cohesion, through the enforcement of rules by someone that nobody can question (God, gods, etc). Being nice to other people so that they, hopefully, will treat you similarly is not strictly for Christians but a concept understood by most people. Even dogs understand the value of being treated with equality: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28112599

Morality defined as a set of rules to live your life by is a notion that seems to be more well developed in social and active animals. Ideas concerning relationships among kin and non-kin and how you interact with each is very different. Among native Hawaiians there are no such things as second cousins and other more abstract kinships. A possible explanation could be that since they are a small island very far from another land that they had a small start population where such terms were not needed and not passed linguistically to their descendants. Marriage to second cousins and first cousins may be shunned in some societies and not so much in others, usually there is a universal taboo against relations from 1st cousin and closer. Why? Genetics, humans and most "higher" animals see that it is genetically bad for the offspring. Again, the social group plays a large role in it. Rules of conduct, in all regards not just kinship, are made to help ensure that a group of individuals may continue on without destroying itself by selfish measures.


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## Fishychic

Mazta and Shev! REALLY interesting. I see your point! Thanks for sharing! 

"Rules of conduct, in all regards not just kinship, are made to help ensure that a group of individuals may continue on without destroying itself by selfish measures." 

What if we were stripped of this inborn sense?

What about people who believe in evolution and Darwinism? "Survival of the fittest"? If we are born with a "good sense", do you think evolution for human kind stops here since we now have a sense of what is right and what is ethical? For instance, we could kill someone weaker than us (Genetically physically or mentally disabled) and that would be an example survival of the fittest but we don't because we know it is not right. Thus letting this person with genetic disabilities to reproduce and spread certain genetic disabilities. With all this going on, do you think we would still evolve? 


Whoa...i rambled. I've been up all day and working at a day care center....I am tired. :lol:


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## Knight~Ryder

Remember what I said before:

What is wrong is right
What is right is wrong
People complain about racism
To be the prime example of a racist
To have peace we must have chaos
To create chaos we must have peace
People want equality for all
To only want it for themselves
We are all considered to be equals
But we are never as equal as others
People say that they are pure and holy
Only to be pure evil
To not give a damn about anyone except for themselves
We are taught that we have the right of free speech
To only be silenced when we attempt it.
If there was only somewhere else
Nothing is ever right
Nothing is ever wrong
What is said is never meant
To do good is to be evil
What is taught isn’t meant to be followed
People say they will be there to help you
To only turn on you and stab you in the back

So with all this insanity going on, where do you go?
I know my worth can not be found in this world and certain dreams I make for myself in life. So then where can my worth be found?

I'm not the shoes I wear, I'm not the clothes I buy, I'm not the car I drive, I'm not the house I live in, I'm not the job I work, YOU CAN'T DEFINE MY WORTH, I'm nothing here on God's green earth. My identity is found in Christ.

With that being said, I sought to see who Christ is. Most people and many "christians" don't even know to this day. I won't even be able to explain it. That is something to be dealt with in the heart and not with logic so to speak. It's an experience inside that will reflect in the outer world. It also doesnt matter if it affects your outer world. I know many people want it to affect there outer world in terms of material things, but those are things that don't last. There is something that does last and it was never ever in this world. Death is not life, it never was, but we believe that lie and live as if we won't die. Eternally speaking we won't, but there is an end to this earthly, flesh. It's a vicious circle that doesnt stop and doesnt make sense no matter how much science we use. Ultimate peace is a knowing inside and nothing or no one can affact that peace.

Life will be so much more alive when your awake and see the truth. Material things won't have a hold on your life anymore. Ideas and opinions won't have a hold on your life anymore. You have the truth and nothing can take it away. It won't have to be a struggle anymore, because every inch of the truth has been ingrained into your mind, heart and soul. It's only a struggle if you resist and hold onto the past. Sure I could hold onto my past and talk about the bad things that happened to me, (and they were horrible) but it doesn't matter anymore. Realise you are not your past and you are very much alive now (I don't mean in the physical sense)

Just remember the insanity of this world, and the perfect knowing that comes in peace, even if it means shutting your thinkers off. My ultimate goal is not the little goals I set for myself on this earth that mean nothing. My goal is all God and no subtitutes. It's the undoing of this backwards world we live in.


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## Sea-Agg2009

Knight~Ryder said:


> even if it means shutting your thinkers off.


Does the phrase "In ignorance is bliss" mean anything to you? Also, my Iphone doesn't define me, but I sure do enjoy it. Do I care what people think of me because of the cloths I buy? Nope, but I like to look nice from time to time. I also know if I want into an interview with a toga and sandles, I probably won't get the job. Items don't define us, but we can still enjoy them. We always want to have nicer things, it's called ambition, and it is the opposite of sloth, one of the seven deadly sins. 

If God is the only thing that keeps you from jumping off a bridge, then that's great. That is the true purpose of religion, hope. If you act kind to others because God is going to punish you otherwise, then that is fine as well. 

I am content with my life because I am making the most of the only one I have been given, by whoever. I am kind to others because I hope that if I was in that situation, someone would be kind to me, and it makes me feel good to help others.

If you really learn about every religion, they all teach the same basic principles. The way they are taught, punishments, and rewards for them are all different, but the message is the same. It is a way for show people how to be decent human beings. If you want to have a faith, that is your business, but trying to convince others that they are wrong is completely different. God tells us to take to the streets, to help the poor, downtrodden, and the weak, people that have no hope that you can help. He does not tell us to criticize everyone else for what they have been taught.

Before you criticize others, proclaiming you know the true way, you should analyze yourself. Are you doing this for your own satisfaction, because if you do this you will be rewarded? Even if the reward is in heaven, are you still doing it to be rewarded a sweet room away from the ice machine? (for those Wierd Al fans) I am content with the life I am living, and I am prepared to accept anything offered, be it good or bad. If I am punished for doing good things in the name of good, rather than the name of some deity, then so be it.

I'm done with this thread. Ignorance disturbs me on a level that cannot be described. "Shutting your thinkers off" is how you have unplanned kids, not how to discover great truths about the human soul. 


Peace.


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## trashion

My own personal code of morality? I don't need an outdated, contradictory book to dictate the choices I should make and the method by which I should live my life. It's not that hard to see the difference between right and wrong. Simple: don't screw anyone over. Is that a Christian sentiment? I don't think so, I think it's just one that I happen to share with them.

And I don't think everything is predetermined. When I say there's a reason for everything, I mean that there is a logical answer to all questions.


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## Knight~Ryder

Sea-Agg2009 said:


> "Shutting your thinkers off" is how you have unplanned kids, not how to discover great truths about the human soul.


That may be for you. 

My statement was taken a little far. Over thinking is what causes stress, anxiety and many other problems. I see this in the lives of many around me. Sometimes having relaxation and turning off my mind is a beautiful thing in this fast paced world we live in now.


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## Knight~Ryder

I also mean 

For today we eat, drink, and be merry (party) for tomorrow we die.
That's not the life I want. There is more to life then that


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## Shaggy

My question is, why does everyone argue over religion and belief. If one person believes that there is a God and heaven waiting from them and it makes their life feel stable, thats is great! If others think there is no such thing as a god, and they are happy with their lives, thats great too. Why does each person that believe in God argue that fact to other people that don't?? If all the people are happy with their lives and living it correctly (not killing or stealing) then why argue? Thats what I don't get. Why does one person have to aruge with another person about what they believe in? Doesn't make any sense to me.


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## mrmoby

Shaggy said:


> My question is, why does everyone argue over religion and belief. If one person believes that there is a God and heaven waiting from them and it makes their life feel stable, thats is great! If others think there is no such thing as a god, and they are happy with their lives, thats great too. Why does each person that believe in God argue that fact to other people that don't?? If all the people are happy with their lives and living it correctly (not killing or stealing) then why argue? Thats what I don't get. Why does one person have to aruge with another person about what they believe in? Doesn't make any sense to me.


You have a valid point. I really don't believe in any organized religion, and no one is going to persuade me otherwise, while on the other hand, I am not likely to change someones well established beliefs.

My only problem is when people(and I am not referencing anyone here or in this thread) who hold religous beliefs speak down to me from a position of moral superiority, or when they want to impose their beliefs on me through public policy. Personally, that is what makes myself, and I feel others, engage in a religous agrument. It is at times like that I enjoy disputing these subjects, but it is almost always a fruitless debate on both sides.


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## jones57742

justintrask said:


> im sorry. IMO, that was a waste of 3 minutes of my life


jit: 3 minutes was nothing!!!: I have spent several hours listening to the various pros and cons on YouTube and both proponents are bunch of idiots (I know: I know: this is not nice to say but is true).

The definition of a Christian is like physics in that it gets real simple real quick.

Either you do or do not believe that a feller was walking on this Earth approximately 2000 years ago, died, and several days later was up and walking around again or you do not*. I have not observed this occurrence and have never known anyone who has.

*His teachings and those of his Apostles have really been perverted down through the years. If you doubt just look at many of the major "Christian Religions" with respect the various letters of His Apostles to the early Christian churches as well as his teachings.


Does a Deity need creation?

If not this is a "no brainer" as one exists.


Does a universe need creation?

If not this is a "no brainer" as it has always existed through its' expansion and contractions and life has been generated via processes in the nonequilibrium branch of thermodynamics which we not currently comprehend.


The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.

TR




I am not familiar with other religions and hence cannot comment.


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## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> *His teachings and those of his Apostles have really been perverted down through the years.


BINGO! You hit it on the head. To me "believing" in Jesus is not a religious thing, it's a relationship. We have twisted and distorted everything he said. We have made our own religion for our own selfish reasons. We all do that in life to a degree.

Jesus said that we will all be able to do even greater things then he did. To love our neighbor and never seek revenge. He said *the greatest one can do for another is to lay ones life down for a friend.* He did just that, and before he died he said "It is finsished"

Can we lay our lives down for a friend. Really now. I have asked myself this a few times. Are we in this world just for ourselves or to show the meaning of love to one another.

To me Jesus is the greatest example of love, kindness, and every other great word out there. I don't picture him on the cross dead. He is alive and in my heart. That is the ressurection! Most people have distorted and twisted things all up. It really is so simple. 

I always remember verses like 

"Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. *Do not be wise in your own opinion*."

I always remember this, and I know the walk I have is of humility and not pf pride. It can be hard to walk this road but it gets easier as I really let go of all my pride I have 

Also

"No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light."

Again, we complicate things so much. The words he said are not LAWS. The law was givin and we all failed greatly at that. He said they should be written in our hearts, not on stone! So it was always a spiritual thing, and not a physical thing. He said things in parables (stories) so we can all understand, but the words were more then words, they were life giving.

I have searched and searched so many philosiphies, teachings of all sorts but when it comes down to it, it's that alone time you have with God. That peace that can not be explained. I don't look for debates or to look down on someone, Jesus never did that, nor should I. Sometimes the hardest ones to reach are the "Holy ones" who think they know God all in their pride and arrogence. Things are so twisted and distorded. People take one verse and run with it not reading the one before or after. Now you have all this mumble jumble. 

Anyhow, I don't know it all and I'm not here to judge, if I judge I am really judging myself. That's not up to me. What I can do is show love in all I say and do. If I make a mistake, I move on from it and learn.

Funny I never hear of verses like this anymore. We have reduced the "gospel" down to almost nothing and no one can discern "truth" anymore. This next portion is what resonates with me. This sums up everything I said.

28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first commandment of all?”

29 Jesus answered him, 
“The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 

30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 

31 And the second, like it, is this: *‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”*

32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, *and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” *

34 Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him,* “YOU ARE NOT FAR FROM THE KINGDOM OF GOD”* 

It's too bad some people, even "Christians" don't understand this. Let's get back to the basics and love one another. 

Hope this helps clarify more who I am.


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## lohachata

for every question asked there will be a somewhat different answer from every person that attempts it.morals;ethics;and all of the other things in our minds are not ours.
we know nothing except what we are taught.we embrace what we wish to accept and rebel against what we do not wish to accept.but our thirst for power leads us to dictate that others should believe as we do.and we condemn them when they don't.
i am a firm believer in god and christ.my religion is greek orthodox.i am anti catholic despite the fact the the two religions are connected.but i do believe that we are each entitled to our own beliefs without being condemned for them.and think about how many people have been killed in the name of god.
my god is your god and your god is my god.the only differences are in what we call him and how we see him.and how do we know which of us is right in their beliefs?
i will give you an example of an interesting experience i had in 1993.i was custodial parent of my daughter.the company i worked for for 21 years closed down.unemployment ran out.couldn't find a job.about to be evicted and lose everything.i had totally failed to provide for my child.i was an absolute failure.so i ate a couple hundred pills.i laid in my bed for 2 days before i was taken to the hospital.according to the doctors i took enough pills to kill 5 or 6 people.so,why did i survive?i shouldn't have...i should have been dead within 24 hours.but i did survive.the proof is that i am here agitating all of you people.
i am invincible.....at least until god says i am not..i cannot die until god is ready for me.all i know is that god had something else in store for me.most likely some kind of punishment for being such a bad person.who knows.all that i can do is go when he calls.
so believe what you wish.seek out what is in your heart.treat your fellow man with love and compassion and respect.and speak not against him for his beliefs..
arguing,debating or bickering over religious beliefs is a detriment to us all.


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## crazyfishlady

trashion said:


> And I don't think everything is predetermined. When I say there's a reason for everything, I mean that there is a logical answer to all questions.


I have thought this myself but then I ask the question why do the innocent get raped, murdered, robbed, etc, etc. What is the logical answer to that?


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## jones57742

lohachata said:


> i am anti catholic ...


Not splitting hairs here but just curious: did you mean *C*atholic?




jones57742 said:


> The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.


I would very much enjoy hearing other Members' comments concerning this paragraph in my post.

TR


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## TheOldSalt

I don't know, man... we've been down THAT road before, and it was a disaster. 
Sheesh.. all I asked was what people thought fish on other planets might be like, and the commotion that followed was EPIC.

Anyway, I tend to doubt that there are very many Christian aliens out there, LOL, but they could conceivably have their own version of Jesus, if God is prone to using the same Messianic model over & over again. Or not. It's something I can't even guess. I can only assume that aliens have even more diverse religious beliefs than we do.

Crazyfishlady, you are basing your question on the flawed assumption that life is fair. Get over THAT, and the answer is plain. If ours was a world in which those things never happened to those who didn't "deserve" them, then what would be the point of anything?


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## lohachata

hmmmm..is there a difference between catholic and Catholic.i doubt that the use of an upper case letter matters.my being anti catholic is from my personal experience with the church..from 2 different occasions.i am not against the people of that faith.i am against the church and how it treats people that are not of that faith.


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## jones57742

lohachata said:


> hmmmm..is there a difference between catholic and Catholic.i doubt that the use of an upper case letter matters.


catholic: of, relating to, or forming the church universal 

Anglicans make the distinction with capitalization, thusly:
Catholic: refers to the Roman Catholic Church

John: the above are commonly accepted capatilization distinctions and in my world there is a ton of difference.

TR


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## InuGirlTeen

Okay, my number one theory...

How come everything we know, see, and understand must have been created by some higher power... but then the higher power is allowed to just 'be'? 

People say that God created everything and then the world makes sense to them. To mean, I'm left with a question just as large... Who created God? 

It's much easier to just ignore it all, assume that we are just a speck in a movement of time that will never be understood, and go on with our lives. You can't know everything and out of this fear, there came God. God is nothing more than a shield against fear, which to me is ultimately useless. You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife, and then you spend your life fearing whether or not you'll be passed into heaven. What the hell?

I'm not an atheist, because by saying that I am, I'm admiting that there is a God to deny.


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## Knight~Ryder

InuGirlTeen said:


> You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife, and then you spend your life fearing whether or not you'll be passed into heaven.


What do you do yourself? We all do wacky and quirky things to make our lives seem meaningful. Even if it's going to school to become sucessful, to have a "great" life.

We all create things (or think we do) to make our life worth living. For me personally, I have tried everything out there that people deem important and I find no satisfaction in any of it. Not fully anyhow.

Check out this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYQWLhPzn64

Here is a quote from it

man, they swear they so gangsta but everyones the same/ everybody do the same stuff/ tattoo, piercing/ smokin' up and drinking/ money and sex plus them extravagant weekends/ if that's the high life/ I'll puff puff pass that/ you leave evaporated like you missing a gas cap/ I guess I'm passed that/cause I am in rebellion/ I'd rather have a dollar in my pocket than a mill-ion/ I'm scared to worship money, and my wants over Elyon/

Now again I am not judgeing anyone. I can't change anyone and I don't want to try. It's not my job. I do however keep my eyes set on greater things and I don't live just for the future.

You said "You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife,"

Well maybe some people do, and there could very well be an afterlife but I don't focus on that myself.

"Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is within you" in Luke 17:21"

Many people forget those words...

The Kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God, are literally interchangable in understanding. 
This kingdom is spiritual in nature, and starts with the spiritual awareness of Christ, and the grace of His father God, and knowing he died for you. . it grows in us, according to our understanding, and faithfulness to God, through Jesus. . and in the next world it is us, the members of this kingdom, who will be reunited, and be forever with our Lord. . This kingdom is part of our inheritance. 

This was completely new to Old Testament people, *who built their whole existance on keeping laws and rituals, given to them by the Jewish leaders in the synogoges. Their whole justification was by how well they followed the law, customs, ordinances and commands of the church. The only righteousness they could attain to, was self righteousness. *. Now we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus, free, and with love.


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## InuGirlTeen

I'd rather live my own life my own way than follow a bunch of crap that was created by man, which by the way, I believe to be the most destructive and ignorant species on Earth. Believe what you want.


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## Knight~Ryder

InuGirlTeen said:


> I'd rather live my own life my own way than follow a bunch of crap that was created by man, which by the way, I believe to be the most destructive and ignorant species on Earth. Believe what you want.


There are many things created by man that are not religion related. 
You grew up and listened to your parents right?
You went to school and listened to everything the teachers taught you right?
You do things a certain way because other people do it that way right?

If you think that we are the most destructive and ignorant species on earth, wouldnt it be because everyone has the attitude of doing things their own way. Pride comes before a fall.

Again I will say that until a person learns to walk in humility and let go of all pride and even certain "belief systems" he will never understand the "kindom of heaven" That goes for me and all of mankind.

Many people have the attitude that "my way is the right way." I say, I don't have the answers and I always seek to walk in humilty and admit that I know nothing, then go from there.

"In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise."

I don't want to follow anything just to follow it. In fact I don't even need to be called a certain "label" because I am more then that. We all label and judge one another in various shapes and forms, it's admitting it that is the hardest. Everything we got in life was from another person somewhere along the road. So none of us actually believe what we want to. 

That's when I let go of every label and way of thinking. I go into the depths of my heart and stay in the peace and tranquility that has always been there but chose to ignore. That's where "God" is. That's where I learn to grow in wisdom and truth. Never, ever will I find it in the things of this world.


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## Knight~Ryder

This song is touching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibE0oTMMKXo

Originally written for the Vietnam war back in the 70's

Verse 2 hits home pretty hard.

"Many years have come and gone
Yet this world remains the same
Empires have been built and fallen
Only time has made a change
Nation against nation
Brother against brother
Men so filled with hatred
Killing one another
And over half the world is starving
While our banner of decency is torn
Debating over disarmament
Killing children before they're born
And fools who march to win the right
To justify their sin
Oh, every nation that has fallen
Has fallen from within"


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## lohachata

try reading this little book..my favorite book by my favorite author..
"The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran


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## shev

I don't think debating deserves the stigma it has, especially on the interwebs.



> I have thought this myself but then I ask the question why do the innocent get raped, murdered, robbed, etc, etc. What is the logical answer to that?


To be an Atheist, you have to answer whether you think a god exists or not. To be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, Jew, or whatever, you have to answer the question whether _your_ god exists and the others don't. At this fork in the road, you may as well just start flipping coins, as dumb luck is the biggest factor in any religion's number of followers, not evidence toward that religion since they essentially all have the same amount of credible "Evidence". That dumb luck, of course, is geography, where someone just so *happens* to be born.

After someone chooses they believe there is a god, everything after that I think is a baseless assumption on what that god will be like. All religions use assumptions, that I think have no merit, as the core of their beliefs, it's why they all require faith. They can only guess or assume evidence for their religion is true, such as things in their holy books. So, your assumption, "if there is a god, there wouldn't be rape or murder" is really just as baseless as any of their logic. You have _no reason_ to assume that if there is a god, he'd follow that reasoning.

Now, as for the video, the dude makes the same mistake. He talks about how we don't know how the universe was formed, and then jumps to the conclusion his god did it. He says "We dont know what created matter, time, or space. We can conclude it's awesomely powerful and intelligent, and suddenly the picture starts to form." Well, that's a pretty large jump to go from "we don't know" to "God did it", and it's based on an assumption with no evidence. Well what happens when we do know? When we figure it out? If you look at how much time religion has had to answer such questions as "what created the universe?" and compare that to how long science has been answering questions, it's only a matter of time before such timeless questions are answered. Instead of filling in the gaps and "I dunno's" with "God did it by___", they've been converted from "I dunno's" to scientific theories. The universe is on the list, and it's amazing how much evidence there already is supporting some theories of how it all came to be. The most successful and long-living religion won't be the one with the most evidence and "proof". It will be the religion with the least proof to be refuted. 

Anway, just my 2 cents. :fish::fish:


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## Knight~Ryder

I said this earlier concerning your quote on the innocent being hurt.

Some people say that God isn't real because they "can't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is all-powerful, then He should stop all this evil." But what is evil? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally wrong: it's murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop? The murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil we have to be consistent, we can't pick and choose.


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## jones57742

KN:

Please excuse my lecturing here but you are coming on way, way to strong.

Other than aggravating John wrt capitalization I have stayed out this but you could easily tell my persuasions by several paragraphs in my first post, ie.



jones57742 said:


> The definition of a Christian is like physics in that it gets real simple real quick.
> 
> Either you do or do not believe that a feller was walking on this Earth approximately 2000 years ago, died, and several days later was up and walking around again or you do not*. I have not observed this occurrence and have never known anyone who has.


and that I am a half a... biblical (scholar is way to strong of a word but front cover to back many times just like the Trimble GPS theory and applications text [like 3-4" three ring binders] yes) by


jones57742 said:


> ... the various letters of His Apostles to the early Christian churches ...


I really do not mean to hurt your feelings here and I know where you are coming from wrt passages predicating that you publish your beliefs but you are alienating folks here.

Also your posts are fairly "one sided" and what I mean by this is that you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians.

Also you are aware of the one of the most recognized quotes in the Gospel of John and are really tiptoeing around it in your posts as who knows:


jones57742 said:


> Does a universe need creation?
> If not this is a "no brainer" as it has always existed through its' expansion and contractions and life has been generated via processes in the nonequilibrium branch of thermodynamics which we not currently comprehend.



Also, as you are the predominant contributor to this thread, I would appreciate your thoughts with respect to


jones57742 said:


> The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.


Once again KR I am not trying to hurt your feelings here and I do know where you are coming from with respect to an edict but, if by your posts, no one is listening then you are not accomplishing the intent of the edict.

TR


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## Knight~Ryder

My feelings are not hurt by anything you are saying. In fact, I don't even take offense to anything anyone else says. I used to though, when the truth of life wasn't real to me. Now I basiclly live and let live, though I do like to see what other people have to say concerning certain topics. I'm sure as I get older that will dwindle down though.

You are talking about John here, then I'm sure you know

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

It gets real simple as well once we know who the "son" is. I used to mistake many things Jesus said and use them for my own benifit. In fact, I may still do that today.

Let me give you my testimony if you will listen 
I wrote this about a month ago for all to see, so I will post it here for you. Hopefully this will let you know where I'm coming from a little better.

I have been noticing quite a bit that the more I am taking a stand in faith, there has been more persecution, more attacks on me. (or rather what I am saying) First of all, I never mean to come down in judgement against anyone. In fact I do it all out of a great love for all of you. Will you chose to love me back? No one around me is perfect, neither am I in any way perfect. I never claim to be better then anyone, so don't get it confused when I speak of greater more pure things and add my thoughts here and there. I am striving to be stripped of all pride and walk in humility. I am growing as are all of you. It is better to be hated for what you are..than to be loved for what you are not..stand for what you believe in..even if you have to stand alone.

Walk with me as I tell you a little about my life.

I used to just sit around and not care for my fellow neighbor/brother/sister. I was only interested in pleasing myself and how I could gain something out of life. Even seeking after God was a selfish thing, because I was still trying to find a way out for me as I was tired of living in a world that is so backwards. Once I was finding a way out, I began to realise it wasn't about me anymore. I see now that we are not put on this earth for ourselves, but for each other and for one another. No one is higher then the other. 

My whole view on life has changed for the better and only because I sought after truth. I don't find my worth in this world anymore. Many years I tried to find my worth but never could. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't live up to other peoples standards. I always did what they wanted me to do, and when I got there it wasn't enough. When I didn't work, I was told to work, when I worked, I was told to work harder, when I worked harder, I was told to do more, more more more . I even ran my own business and that still was not enough. Some people saw and still see my self worth in material things and how I look, and what I've done. HOW SHALLOW right? Well, we all have been there and some are still there. Trying to find ourselves in this backwards life we call the world. Someone needs to take a stand (and I don't mean in pride) I mean for the truth. 

Knowing "about" God is not enough. Believing in a certain faith is not enough! There seems to be a billion paths that really don't lead anywhere. I know, I have searched and searched! We say what is good for one person is not good for the other. Is this statement really truth? It can't be. There can only be one truth! Yeah yeah I know....I heard all about Jesus, and living this so called "Christian" life and I thought I knew it all. Or did I? Was knowing "about" God enough? Sure, I was lectured about God and all his ways MENTALLY speaking, but nothing ever hit my heart. So I thought I could find it elsewhere. I searched more and more, into all types of Philosophy, religion and spiritual things. I spent countless years in what I thought was finding "God" to me, just getting more and more confused and never having that total peace I was told I could have. I was putting myself through torment, pain and agony. 

LOOK AT THIS WORLD I yelled out! LOOK AT IT. It's insane! Everyone is two faced! I knew I was in a backwards world, but I didn't know how to get out! I knew I couldn't find my self worth in material things and other people, (I got that far yes, or did I) but I still strived for it. WHAT WAS I MISSING! WHAT WAS I DOING WRONG I kept thinking, thinking, thinking. Mentally trying to figure everything out.

That's where my heart grew cold and hard. I gave up. I said it couldn't be done. There is no God. There is no hope. There is no peace. I wanted to end my life. It wasn't worth living in this sick, twisted world right? Where wrong is right and where right is wrong. I wanted it all to end. Good thing I still has strength to breathe. (and thats about all) When I finally let go, and I mean LET GO, things started to change. I began to search the words of Jesus again, replaying them over and over again such as ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and in John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. As I was reading these, I also stumbled across Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. That hit me pretty hard, because that explained the sheer turmoil I was in.
I knew my view was not in line with Gods view, it was still from mans view so I knew I was missing something. The more I began to put my focus onto Jesus and his words of life and truth, I started to rise up outside of myself, out of my pride and my lust for this world. In Luke 9:23-24 it says "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever would save his own life shall lose it; but whoever wants to lose his life for My sake will find it." At first it was hard, I felt it was a struggle, a battle, a fight and it was, O boy it was, but the more I stayed focused on the things of God, my appetite for the world got smaller and smaller. I saw the world for what it was in all it's insanity and double standards all the while seeing the world as a place that needs love, that needed guidance, that needed Jesus. Even if they didn't understand it! God began to give me a love for people, even that I had hated in the past. I began to understand forgiveness and the purpose of Jesus giving up his life and him saying "It is finished". 

Look what he did, people mocked, laughed, spit, and beat him, while he was loving them, and spreading love. Sure he called out the pharisees and sadducees who thought themselves to be the most holy and the most perfect, but because they were blind! They said they saw, but they didn't see a thing! Don't we do that today, we walk as if we can see and walk as if we know it all in our selfish pride. It's always our opinion that matters, and we mock those who see things differently. The other way around, we get to a point where we are just coasting along and we say whatever happens happens . We allow ourselves to slip into the world, not making as much as a sound so that people can hear the truth. We take our focus off of Jesus, and his ultimate love for us all and get weaker to the point of going back to our old state of living. Some of us have the truth, but we don't give it! Or, we try to get more truth for our gain! That is not experiencing the full truth, understanding and knowing full truth will come when we are stripped of all our pride, and remember in Luke 8:16 No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light.


I will no longer sit around and be like the rest of the world and sit in confusion and darkness, I've been there. That's torment. That is no way to live. If I see someone suffer I will be there to comfort and not think of myself. There is light, there is hope, but not in the things of this world. If we didn't resist God we would be in total peace, and live in total love, and total forgiveness. Humility comes from accepting the fact that we don't know it all, and letting it go and giving it to God. If I am wrong in any of my doings I ask God to guide me to show me more as to how to be used in the right way, but I will no longer sit around and be content in this life full of lies and pain, and continue to see my brother and sisters in the same torment. I have that passion to go out and show the world the love of the father through me! God forgive me for not wanting to do that! 

There is only one truth and it was so simple to begin with. We complicate things so much. People have distorted the truth and made their own "religion" for their own selfish reasons! Jesus did come for a reason, his message is still very alive today for a reason. His words are more alive then ever. They are life giving. Ask God to make it a reality to you, a knowing that you experience daily, not just a ritual you perform to find worth. Your desire will grow and grow so much that you can't keep it to yourself anymore. Life will be so much more alive when your awake and see the truth. Material things won't have a hold on your life anymore. Ideas and opinions won't have a hold on your life anymore. You have the truth and nothing can take it away. It won't have to be a struggle anymore, because every inch of the truth has been ingrained into your mind, heart and soul. It's only a struggle if you resist and hold onto the past. Sure I could hold onto my past and talk about the bad things that happened to me, (and they were horrible) but it doesn't matter anymore. Realise you are not your past and you are very much alive now. I guarantee you will find nothing in this world more powerful then the simplicity of knowing Jesus and being humble enough to admit it. I promise you that. 
Let us be a witness in everything we say and do. In spirit and in truth!

Now this may not be everyones experience, but it was mine. I don't push it on anyone. I simply ask that people go to their hearts and search there, that's all 

Oh and one more thing, when I say TRUTH, I don't mean it as "christian" truth because already there is a label attached to that, and I really can't be defined except in and through God.


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## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Let me give you my testimony if you will listen


Well of course I listened and twice (especially as much time as you spent in preparation)!

The context of your post dissuades my fear that you are alienating and not functioning as Matthew set forth in his Gospel.

You appear to (and I really hope that you) have attained the peace set forth in the fourth chapter of Paul's letter to the Philippians.

Please bear in mind though, and this is coming from an old dinosaur, John 16:33.


Could you please respond to:



jones57742 said:


> ... you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians.


and



jones57742 said:


> The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.


*???*

I am "self taught" as apparently you are and hence would very much appreciate you responses (and may have several other "burning questions for you" subsequently).

TR


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## Knight~Ryder

Okay, this is the topic of marriage. Yes I chose to get "married". To me it is more then what the world deems as marriage. Getting married is actually an outward expression of an inward decision. I know we are all one in spirit, so no matter what I do to get close to my wife, kiss, hold hands, anything really won't matter because we are already joined as one.

Marriage is just one example of the many things we do as a tradition of man. Again, doing things to find worth. (being outwardly married doesnt mean a thing to me for the record)

When I got married I wanted it to be a testament to people of the light of God in us. I know outwardly this may never work, but I still do what I know best. I could talk for hours about the things men do to find worth...

Paul never condemed anyone who got married, read it over carefully and you will see exactly what he said. I'll leave that to you to find out. Again, I don't live by mans standards and rules. They really make no sense. There is a reason the law of moses was fulfilled through Jesus Christ. 

As far as your second question. Thank God I know I am not just carbon and oxygen based. There is so much more we can't see. I don't want to just operate in the 3rd dimention. There are many more aspects to it then what we see.

I came across this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx3tCeagaxE


----------



## jones57742

KN:

This is becoming counterproductive wrt my inquisitions but I appreciate your previous post.

TR


----------



## shev

Well, I see where you're coming from now. We just weren't seeing eye to eye.




> We say what is good for one person is not good for the other. Is this statement really truth? It can't be. There can only be one truth!


You talk about truth a lot, but the word "truth" implies evidence or a reason for it being true. I tend to focus on why something is true, and you seem to focus on how something will effect you, if it's the truth.

You started the thread with a video of someone using some logic to answer why it's true, but then in the thread you base your truths on something entirely different. It's "true" to you because it makes sense to you, and more importantly, you can find happiness and a meaning for yourself in that "truth". When you start to define truths by what makes you happy with your life, then there isn't any one truth and you can see S haggy's point:


> If one person believes that there is a God and heaven waiting from them and it makes their life feel stable, thats is great! If others think there is no such thing as a god, and they are happy with their lives, thats great too.


I've seen zero evidence of why your truth is true, and someone else's truth is false. People have found just as much "truth" in their religion/god, and by "truth" I mean peace and happiness in their beliefs. So when you say, 


> If we didn't resist God we would be in total peace, and live in total love, and total forgiveness.


I have to ask: which god? A lot of people have died over this question. Not exactly what I would call "total peace". Peace comes with accepting what is true for you. It's great you can find your happiness in a relationship with Jesus. Now just replace "Jesus" with "Muhamad", "Shiva" or "flying spaghetti monster" and you can see eye to eye with other people just as happy and devoutly certain of their "truths". 

In the end, it's only "true" to you because you _want_ it to be true.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

"Be still and know that I am God." How much more simpler does it get?

This command—“be still”—forces us to think on two things: that we are finite, and that God is infinite. That being the case, we need to drop our hands, go limp, relax, and “chill out.” 

So as your world crumbles around you, the call from Scripture is: don’t flinch in faith in God. Stand still—not because of a self-made confidence, not because you are the most composed person in the face of disaster, not because “you’ve seen it all.” Be still because of what you know about God.

It is “God’s past” that provides calm for “our future.” Know that he is God! *Know it, not merely intellectually, but practically, spiritually, and emotionally.* He is your God. He is the ruler of kingdoms of this earth and the all-powerful Creator of the Universe.

If you are the last man or woman standing, be still. “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, though the earth do change”


----------



## emc7

I'm open to religion. There is so much beauty in music, in nature and even in equations, I can easily believe in a creator. I can also see the argument that our brains evolved to appreciate symmetry because its a good way to choose healthy food and mates. IMO, God gave us brains, logic and reason. Not to use them because you might discover something contrary to the beliefs of an authority (religion, government, whoever), is just a criminal waste. 

IMO all the arguments for "intelligent design", while interesting have flawed assumption, holes, or even wrong facts. No one has proven God or disproven God(s). You could argue for a place for the debate in schools, but not in science class. 

IMO morality is a valuble thing for society and should be promoted by things like "do onto to others as you would have them to do to you" in chlildhood, but it doesn't need to be tied to religion. And I believe religion should stay out of public policy debates. Separation of church and state is how we've had only one civil war in 200 years. Compare that to other nations. 

When people say "everything happens for a reason" and see omens in traffic patterns, I say bs, some of life has got to be random. Even if every event had some significance, some of them wouldn't be aimed at you, they would be aimed at other people on the road. I think this kind of thinking is immature: the child being the center of the universe.

There are good teachings in all faiths: charity, peace, love. But I can't see taking the literal intepretion of any scripture as other than stupid. Even if god dictated a book word by word, people would have screwed it up.


----------



## Sea-Agg2009

Thanks you emc, that is what I have been trying to say.

Science is the method of disproving (not proving) what we believe to be correct.
Religion of any form is the faith in what cannot be proved.

Do we now see the conflict? Religion and Science cannot completely coincide within the same parameters. Trying to disprove religion, or trying to prove your faith, are both meaningless, because neither will ever fully encompass each other. 

Either way you look at things, there is a vast world out there that we simply do not fully understand. Each person has their own way to make sense of it. If you believe you are right, then be content in that, rather than trying to disprove everyone else. 


This whole conversation is pretty awful. It is simply 2 sides trying to convince the other that they are wrong. This entire topic is a waste because it is based on something that YOU CANNOT PROVE. As TR said, the thread is now becoming counterproductive, and is de-volving into simple bickering. I move the thread be locked...


I also vote that, unless for the purposes of historical or current events, religion/faith or the lack there-of, be left out of this forum. It never ends well, ever. The topic is simply too complicated to be resolved here.


----------



## emc7

> Science is the method of disproving (not proving) what we believe to be correct.
> Religion of any form is the faith in what cannot be proved


I agree with you. Most of the scientists I know have some form of faith. They see a beauty is in organization of the universe that is hard to grasp as appearing randomly. 

I admit to a prejudice against the subset of people who feel compelled to subject others to their own "moral code" and spread their faith. There is a real conflict in this country about whether public policy should be based on "science" (facts, studies, statistics) or on "values" (beliefs, morals, etcs). Both sides have manipulators. Statistics are "massaged" or taken out of context, polls are influences by the questions asked, which things are studied depends on who controls the funding, "values" are affected by TV ads and packaged presentations sent to congregations. I fall strongly on the science side of this debate. Lets get the best and the brightest working with the best data to resolve our worst problems. 

I respect people of strong beliefs and will listen to you viewpoints. Many feel that only by changing my beliefs can they save my soul. Ok, I'll listen, but I likely won't change.
Most of what religion tells us is morally wrong (poverty, murder, theft, etc.) is also disruptive and dangerous for a civilized society. Its not a conflict. In only a few issues, most of them regarding gender roles, do I see no value for a society in legislating morality. These are the issues where all the money is going. Why? Someone wants to control the rest of us. The politicians are picking the places where opinions between the faithful and the secular differ most and creating "wedge issues" with the goal of getting elected. More important issues where everyone agrees we need to act are getting shoved off the table for political gain and this galls me. I feel issues such as "the definition of marriage" are a distraction when there are still starving children.

I find it easy to believe that a man lived 2000 years ago and spread a message of hope and love that changed the world. What I find hard to believe is that any of the world's religions are without corruption. Power and money attract the worst of people and I have an abiding faith in the fallibility of mankind. But any group of people trying to make this world a better place should be cooperated with when our goals align.

I never understood the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" type thought processes. I have always admired great doers (Mother Theresa) more than great thinkers. I always want to tell these people who are trying to prove/disprove God to go do something useful in this world. Even if you had absolute proof of God's existence, no one would believe it. We don't have the critical thinking skills to objectively draw conclusions from data anymore. We all just "go with the gut" and believe what those people nearest to us believe.


----------



## jones57742

Folks: Please bear with me hear.

As yall can obviously tell I am one of those folks who believed that a feller walked on the earth a couple a thousand years ago, died, and was up walking around again three days later.

BUT





Sea-Agg2009 said:


> Science is the method of disproving (not proving) what we believe to be correct.


Hence the link which KR furnished is correct.

I do not think so as just because we cannot currently even model the production of lactic acid does not mean that a Deity zapped life.




Sea-Agg2009 said:


> Religion and Science cannot completely coincide within the same parameters.


Somehow and no way that I can verbalize in my brain they do.




Sea-Agg2009 said:


> Either way you look at things, there is a vast world out there that we simply do not fully understand.


At least that not will be understood while I am here but that does not mean that future generations will have a much better understanding of nature (including what is now termed supernatural due to its' lack of understanding).




Sea-Agg2009 said:


> This whole conversation is pretty awful. It is simply 2 sides trying to convince the other that they are wrong. This entire topic is a waste because it is based on something that YOU CANNOT PROVE. As TR said, the thread is now becoming counterproductive, and is de-volving into simple bickering. I move the thread be locked...


SA: I was addressing KR's lack of willingness to express his thoughts concerning two very primary issues (and believe me there are tons out there when you live in both worlds) and I will exemplify the first by comments concerning his marriage tux and Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians:
7:7 Yet I wish that all men were like me. However each man has his own gift from God, one of this kind, and another of that kind. 
7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows, it is good for them if they remain even as I am. 
7:9 But if they don't have self-control, let them marry. For it's better to marry than to burn. 

In order to maintain lasting peace many issues internally require resolution.




Sea-Agg2009 said:


> The topic is simply too complicated to be resolved here.


Yes! Ultimate resolution of all issues will probably never be possible by any creature capable of contemplation of its' existence in the universe (ie. the charm of a quark) but helping Ron with his thinking is possible.




emc7 said:


> I agree with you. Most of the scientists I know have some form of faith. They see a beauty *is in organization of the universe that is hard to grasp as appearing randomly*.


em:

I just flat do not understand your comment as I am certain that you are aware of the *second law of thermodynamics* where dS/dT>=1 and S is entropy which is really just chaos in my brain.

I am also fairly certain that you are aware that the above concept is applicable to equilibrium thermodynamics but that with the input of energy organization can be created ie. life.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

A great example of all this would be the movie

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oO6pCRe3pM

Has anyone seen that movie?

It goes to show that heaven was always in the heart and not something that one could attain by doing good works. All this (curfuffle) (funny word eh...) is merely a distraction from the inner peace that one can have when letting things go.

My topic title could have been a little different. Really there doesn't need to be proof that there is a God, because even if it was proved people would still run away. It's human nature. Ego as many call it.

As far as this topic goes, I think it's great! We are all getting along and keeping the peace while discussing a so called "hot" issue.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Found a great song that describes more who I am. 
Identity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0zcYHyfXJU


----------



## emc7

Ron, the organization in the universe is why serious scientists are open to the idea of creation. Entropy is always increasing, so why is there so much neat stuff clustered. 

I read some of the multiverse hypothesis and it makes elegant sense as a rebuttal to the idea that this universe, our physical laws, and even the Earth had to be created for us because conditions here are perfect for us and the probabilities of this happening by chance would be prohibitively low. If every possible combination exists somewhere, then logically even rare combinations must happen and that where conditions are perfect for us is where you will find us. It just means there is lot more emptiness (where conditions aren't good for us) out there that we haven't discovered yet.


----------



## jones57742

em and SA:

Although yall can tell that I am of the same persuasion as KR I just refuse to get into when asked a question answer with "I am at peace".

This "blinded" faith business has cost a ton of lives (like in WWII) but it was not it a Deity.




emc7 said:


> Ron, the organization in the universe is why serious scientists are open to the idea of creation. Entropy is always increasing, so why is there so much neat stuff clustered.


em:

I have already addressed this issue twice in this thread!

You are focusing upon equilibrium thermodynamics which is taught or published as I have previously described but unfortunately the concept of the input of energy into the system is not noted in these teachings or publications and this concept gets into non-equilibrium thermodynamics.

A simplistic example is a massless black box in region of the universe with no gravitational effects which has a bunch of electrons grouped at its' centroid.

Obviously this system will decay to chaos.

But now envision the identical system but with a containing electromagnetic field (which requires energy) and order will be evident.


A not so simplistic example is some combination of inorganic molecules which with the input energy (ie. as radiated by the Sun) order into organic molecules and these organic molecules with the input of energy generate what we term as life.

TR


----------



## Sea-Agg2009

jones57742 said:


> This "blinded" faith business has cost a ton of lives (like in WWII) but it was not it a Deity.


This I can totally agree with. Many people these days have taken the approach that God will take care of them, and that even in the midst of everything, they will be "ok" because some mystical power is going to protect them. This is of course a drastic over-simplification. While asking God for help is good, and I encourage it, it doesn't excuse us from our duty to find it ourselves. God may point you in the right direction, but you still have to take the steps and get there yourself. If you have a disease, God is not going to cure it, the doctor is.

I really don't understand the original intent of this thread. That will clear alot up for me. If you are trying to convert people, this is not the way to do it, nor is it the place.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> em and SA:
> 
> Although yall can tell that I am of the same persuasion as KR I just refuse to get into when asked a question answer with "I am at peace".
> 
> This "blinded" faith business has cost a ton of lives (like in WWII) but it was not it a Deity.


I wouldn't be where I am today of course without going and doing what I needed to do, or wanted to do I should say. My business and my mini goals in life that I have accomplished are beacause of my dedication, passion and willingness to get things done.

Faith Jumps, Fear hesitates and has many reasons not to. What if....What about...and so on.

The peace that passes all understanding comes in letting go. Sometimes we hold onto emotions and attitudes that cause so much destruction in our lives, even to the point of outward physical symptoms. I have chosen to let it all go and live day to day.

Do Not Worry (matthew 6:25-34)
25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 
26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 
27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 
29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 
30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 
31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 
32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 
33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 
34*Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.*

As far as conversion goes, seaAgg2009. I have no need to "convert" anyone. I am simply here just to be who I am and show love wherever possible.


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## emc7

I have to agree with the "Do Not Worry". You do your best to prepare for the future and then you let it go or you worry yourself sick. All of the twelve step programs that trust in a "higher power" do work. There is something liberating in having faith or a trust that everything will be all right. It removes the stress of being responsible for everything. But faith isn't an excuse for not taking care of yourself and your family. All those people in New Orleans who died waiting for rescue by God or government during Katrina are proof that you need to make your own contingency plans and be ready to act.


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## Kyoberr

I think the fact that humans have the ability choose right and wrong is very good proof, instead of following instinct.


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## emc7

How do you know that morals aren't an evolved behavior thats allows us to live and cooperate in larger groups? Morals and empathy (Not killing and robbing strangers) allows humans to live in cities and do large-scale agriculture thereby giving humans a competitive advantage over creatures who only trust those they know personally (like chimpanzees). Like schooling fish and wildebeests have an advantage in living in large groups.

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but my standards of proof are higher than that. Positive proof (outside of mathematics) is especially difficult. A good counter example can destroy a hypothesis, but every fact in favor of a theory is just "supporting evidence". You can really only prove that your theory is wrong or incomplete. You can disprove all opposing theories, but there still could be some other truth outside your experience that no one has hypothesized yet. It is difficult enough that I think the search for positive proof of God is a frivolous one. But I also think it is pointless to try to prove the negative. How would you even go about proving there is no god? You could attack specific ideas of God. But really you can't even disprove the Great Pumpkin. Yes he was made up by a comic writer, but how do you know hes not real and the fiction a coincidence? Yet the debate is an interesting one.

If this thread has been entitled "supporting evidence for the theory of intelligent design in the creation of our universe", I might still have have attacked, but I would have had to work harder and pay more attention to the details of what was presented.


----------



## jones57742

emc7 said:


> If this thread has been entitled "supporting evidence for the theory of intelligent design in the creation of our universe", I might still have have attacked, but I would have had to work harder and pay more attention to the details of what was presented.


em:

I have not noted you "attacking" but only responding to assertions.

I pretty much gave up when my questions which I believed to be very straightforward were answered by "don't worry be happy".

TR


----------



## Fishychic

This thread should be deleted. It hasn't moved anyone's opinion. Not even a cinch.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Great idea EMC, I changed it, lol.

Jones can you post your questions in order and I'll see what I can do. Like I said I am not the greatest debater out there and my hearts desire isn't to debate because most of the time it ends up going nowhere, but I'll give it a shot!

Post your questions again so I can see them in an orderly fashion


----------



## emc7

I try not to attack people. But I do like to argue. "absolute", & "proof" are like "always" and "never". Its almost not a challenge to find the exceptions. Fishychic is right that no opinions are changing. But that wasn't the point, was it KR? You just wanted to get people talking.

Supporting evidence can be attacked two ways. 

1. that its not really evidence (ie. its false, its ungrounded) or 
2. that its not supportive or supports both possible conclusions.

Either way, you have to take each point specifically rather that just attack the assertion that God's existence can be proven.


----------



## emc7

"A god exists" is so vague. It can mean anything. The concept of God is so dependent on point of view. 

Take someone from a primative culture, drop them in the middle of nowhere in a house with running water and 1 light, and give them an allowance. If the person has never seen hot running water or electricity before it will seem like magic. You tell them they are gifts of powerful twin Gods EMC, and WaterCo. You make them offerings every moon through their priest in the office temple. If your offerings are insufficent, the magical gifts with cease to function. So they don't pay, the lights go out, they pay, they go back on. Bingo, proof EMC and WaterCo are real. But they are still only Gods because you said so. Even if you prove an outside force acting on us, how do you define God?


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Like I said I am not the greatest debater out there and my hearts desire isn't to debate because most of the time it ends up going nowhere, but I'll give it a shot!


KR:

The questions were not posted for debating but only to illicit your views based upon your faith (I really wanted to know as your responses may help me in my thinking).

They were posted in a very orderly fashion but were not responded to and hence my frustration with this thread but let's try it one at a time here.


This was my second attempt to illicit a response to this question and was much more verbose that the first:



jones57742 said:


> SA: I was addressing KR's lack of willingness to express his thoughts concerning two very primary issues (and believe me there are tons out there when you live in both worlds) and I will exemplify the first by comments concerning his marriage tux and Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians:
> 7:7 Yet I wish that all men were like me. However each man has his own gift from God, one of this kind, and another of that kind.
> 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows, it is good for them if they remain even as I am.
> 7:9 But if they don't have self-control, let them marry. For it's better to marry than to burn.



The first attempt was:



jones57742 said:


> KN: ...
> Also your posts are fairly "one sided" and what I mean by this is that you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians.


TR


----------



## smark

*The thread that keeps on giving.*

There is no end for this topic as it is all based on the individual’s opinion. Topics such as this are more to sway ones opinion with the appearance of a discussion. 
In the case of this topic, it is not possible. There will always be a difference based on free will. 
Free to believe what one will believe.
Smark~


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Jones I'm not quite sure what the question is? I thought I had answered it.
I know there are so many verses out there that one can take and make it fit to how they want to see it.
Maybe what your getting at is that there is another side to the coin, but I'm not sure.
For once I think I'm stumped??? Care to elaborate, please.

However I do see two sides within me, that which I stive to do and that which I fail on. 

Struggling With Sin (Romans 2)
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! 
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

emc7 said:


> You just wanted to get people talking.


Ding ding ding!

This is not a taboo issue, nor should it be. Some people are afraid to come out of what they know, and I don't blame them either. I was there myself, and sometimes I still find myself there.


----------



## shev

Just cause it's relevant, Venomfangx had a "debate" today about the subject. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q75Fgvx_0rU

I wanted to at least watch, but he stopped registration after the trolls got a hold of the link.

Anyway, here is an interesting point of venomfang's:



> Godguy says to (01:58):
> What happened to all the fresh water fish in the great flood
> 
> VenomFangX says to (01:58):
> who said there were fresh water fish before the flood?
> 
> 
> TheGodDelusion says (01:58:49):
> Sorry
> 
> VenomFangX says to (01:59):
> it is well known that if you take a salt water fish, and begin reducing the amount of salt in the tank, many fish can make the transition to fresh water and survive. Not all, mind you, some.
> 
> TheGodDelusion says (01:59:34):
> You mean like... evolution?
> 
> 
> VenomFangX says to (01:59):
> thats not evolution, thats adaptation
> 
> VenomFangX says to (01:59):
> its still a fish


So, by this logic, you can re-adapt freshwater fish to saltwater. That's a pretty serious patience test with the drip method.


----------



## shev

here's something for jones, breaking news today.



> *Breaking news: NASA to announce life on mars!* ALIEN microbes living just below the Martian soil are responsible for a haze of methane around the Red Planet, Nasa scientists believe.
> 
> The gas, belched in vast quantities in our world by cows, was detected by orbiting spacecraft and from Earth using giant telescopes.
> 
> Nasa are today expected to confirm its presence during a briefing at their Washington HQ.
> 
> And the find is seen as exciting new evidence that Martian microbes are still alive today.
> 
> Some scientists reckon methane is also produced by volcanic processes. But there are NO known active volcanoes on Mars.
> 
> Furthermore, Nasa has found the gas in the same regions as clouds of water vapour, the vital “drink” needed to support life.
> 
> Experts speculate that the methane is being emitted as a waste product by organisms called methanogens living in water beneath underground ice.
> 
> And they would have to be alive today because the methane would otherwise have been lost from the Martian atmosphere.
> 
> John Murray — a member of the Mars Express European space probe team — believes the mini-Martians may be in a form of suspended animation and could even be REVIVED.
> 
> He has found overwhelming evidence of a vast frozen ocean beneath the dust near the Martian equator where simple life could have thrived as microbes.
> 
> Today’s briefing will feature a star panel of Mars experts headed by Michael Meyer, chief scientist for Nasa’s Mars programme.
> 
> UK Mars expert Professor Colin Pillinger believes the methane can only point to the presence of life on the planet.
> 
> 
> His ill-fated Beagle 2 probe was carrying a laboratory that would have looked directly for such signs of life when it crashed on Christmas Day 2003.
> 
> Prof Pillinger told The Sun last night: “Methane is a product of biology. For methane to be in Mars’ atmosphere, there has to be a replenishable source.
> 
> “The most obvious source of methane is organisms. So if you find methane in an atmosphere, you can suspect there is life.
> 
> “It’s not proof, but it makes it worth a much closer look.”
> 
> Nasa’s findings confirm studies by Europe’s Mars Express probe, which has been orbiting the planet for five years and also reported signs of methane in 2004.
> 
> Britain’s top space expert Nick Pope last night hailed the new evidence of life as “the most important discovery of all time”.
> 
> He said: “What could be more profound than to know it’s not just us out there?
> 
> Expert ... Colin Pillinger
> 
> Expert ... Colin Pillinger
> 
> "We’ve really only scratched the surface — it’s an absolute certainty that there is life out there and we are not alone.
> 
> “If there is life on Mars then the logical conclusion is that there must be life elsewhere too.
> 
> “If it’s happened here on Earth, then why shouldn’t it happen anywhere? The implication is this is a universal law.
> 
> “Mars is very similar to Earth. It’s about the same size, it’s a rocky inner planet.
> 
> “Most scientists believe it probably has liquid water which is almost universally agreed as the pre-requisite for life. I am certain there is other life in the Universe and, most likely, intelligent life.”
> 
> The Red Planet has gripped the public imagination for more than a century as a possible home for aliens.
> 
> But life could not survive on its surface because, unlike the Earth, Mars has no magnetic shield to protect it against deadly sun radiation.
> 
> The planet resembles our own in many ways. It is made of rock, it has an atmosphere and weather systems.
> 
> Advertisement
> 
> Although much smaller with a diameter of around 4,222 miles, Mars’ day is just 40 minutes longer than ours and its tilted axis gives it seasons.
> 
> Water has been found in the form of buried ice and scientists believe that two billion years ago, Mars was covered with liquid oceans.
> 
> Proof that water is still on Mars came in 2007 when Mars Express used ground-piercing radar to study the region around the planet’s South Pole.
> 
> Nasa’s latest lander Phoenix dug up chunks of Martian ice last year. It swiftly evaporated into the thin atmosphere.
> 
> Nasa have controversially hit the headlines before for claiming evidence for Martians.
> 
> In 1996, they said they had discovered fossilised organisms in a meteorite from the planet.
> 
> But other scientists were sceptical.
> 
> Today’s conference will be broadcast live online by NASA TV (www.nasa.gov/ntv) at 7pm.


Not exactly what he was asking, can't quite contemplate their own existence =p, but it's a step in that direction.


----------



## justintrask

i agree to the closing of this thread.


----------



## TheOldSalt

The Viking probe pretty much proved the existence of active life on Mars way back in 1974. You'd be amazed by the sheer number of people who have ever since gone to great lengths to try to bury that info.

The viking did some experiments to see if there was any life on Mars. One of them is something that all of us here at FishForums can understand and probably would have thought of ourselves.
1- The probe scooped up a small container of soil, and conducted tests on it for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. It found nothing significant.
2- Next, it sprayed the sample with some ammonia.
3- Later, it tested for those things again
4- Later it did it again.
5 - and again

What it found was that the ammonia eventually became nitrite and then nitrate.
Cool, eh? It gets better.

The probe than zapped the sample with microwaves to kill any bacteria that might have been in it. It then re-added ammonia and retested.
It also did this with a fresh scoop that hadn't previously been ammonia soaked.

On each case, the ammonia remained ammonia. There was no live bacteria, as indeed there should not have been. No other atmosphereic or geologic process was responsible for the nitrification.

Life is on Mars.


So why the coverup? Why the denial?
If Mars were lifeless, we would have no problems. However, a living Mars poses all sorts of major problems for those who'd want to send probes, or men, or even bring back anything.


----------



## shev

Hmmm, that's interesting. Never heard of that before, just the bacteria casings or whatever.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

THE OLD SALT, you won't believe what I just came across today!

January 16, 2009 article.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/090116/science/science_us_mars_methane


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Intelligent Design. Frank Turek examines Information Theory, DNA, the Cell, and other evidence for Intelligent Design. 

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_v_SQJFPItg


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Originally Posted by jones57742 
KN: ...
Also your posts are fairly "one sided" and what I mean by this is that you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians

My response:

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 

9 Two are better than one, 
because they have a good return for their work: 

10 If one falls down, 
his friend can help him up. 
But pity the man who falls 
and has no one to help him up! 

11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. 
But how can one keep warm alone? 

12 Though one may be overpowered, 
two can defend themselves. 
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.


----------



## jones57742

Folks:

Please excuse me but due to the timeout of the Forum I have missed the recent posts in this Thread.


Kn:

Surely you cannot be telling me that the words in the Bible are internally inconsistent?

And heaven forbid :lol: :lol: :lol: that the Bible reports that God repented?


TOS:

You really "know your stuff" here but whether or whether not life exists or has existed on Mars IMHO is inconsequential to me.

The probability that life in a form which can contemplate their existence exists somewhere else in the Universe is 100% in my brain.


Folks:

TOS and his suppression of information is very good.

I have never read of this but conceived this concept:
What if nature is temporally and spatially dependent???

All of our concepts of the universe go down the drain!

TR


----------



## TheOldSalt

Well, I sure hope there's plenty of intelligent life out there... it would otherwise certainly be a real waste of space.


----------



## emc7

I agree life on mars isn't relevent to this thread. But its actually more interesting and relevent to my life than God. Many have theorized that where conditions are right, life is inevitable. That once self-replicating molecules start going, evolution will run its coarse and all sorts of interesting things will happen.


----------



## shev

Well, Jones brought up a point about life on other planets, specifically life that could contemplate its own existence like humans can. I think life on mars is relevant to God. Humans, according to Christianity are in god's image. Jesus died for "man's" sins. According to most religions, man has free will and can decide between doing good and evil, and then go to either heaven or hell depending on that. This is why animals don't go to heaven, which brings up the question whether intelligent life out there would have a soul. Having another life form out there will change the way people think. There have been studies showing religious people are less inclined to believe in aliens because of their beliefs. These microbes on mars can't quite contemplate their existence, but it's some foreshadowing on what might be out there.


----------



## predator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9pDURu8u74

There... If god is real.... He hates amputees....

-me


----------



## Fishychic

Woooowwwww.....

That video was just horrible! LOL. Jeeez. 

Why won't God heal amputees??? LOL. 

Hey, don't you think if amputees all around the world got their limbs to grow back because they prayed to God, Almost EVERYONE would start to be a "believer". They suddenly have this superficial faith in God because they now have hardcore evidence that God is real. Have you heard of faith? Do you know what faith is?


----------



## TheOldSalt

Yep, that would kinda ruin everything. Gods feed on the faith of their followers, but if that faith is impure, it becomes worthless junkfood to them.


----------



## jones57742

shev said:


> Well, Jones brought up a point about life on other planets, specifically life that could contemplate its own existence like humans can.


At long last someone has joined in here with respect to the question!!! but I am uncertain as to the presentation of an appropriate response although as usual I will try.




shev said:


> Having another life form out there will change the way people think. There have been studies showing religious people are less inclined to believe in aliens because of their beliefs.


The questioning of nature and the questioning of the existence of a deity are mutually exclusive subsets.

Does anyone out there really believe that a Deity zapped the Early Cambrian Period formations into Earth's geology and then zapped the evidence of *Trilobites'* existence into rocks into these formations?

Similarly does anyone out there really believe that a Deity just zapped life into some organic molecules and that we now exist as a result thereof?

When put in the above context does not a belief in these simplistic examples appear inane?

I could go on and on here but the questioning of nature is mutually exclusive from the questioning of the existence of a Deity in my brain!

The only problem which I perceive with the concept of life which can contemplate its' own existence elsewhere in the universe is that nature, as we attempt to describe it, is temporally and spatially dependent.

This concept has never been published to my knowledge and only comes out of my brain as its' publication would do away with a significant portion of the physics community and virtually all of the astrophysics community.

TR

BTW: could not keep from this one per the PETA thread.



shev said:


> This is why animals don't go to heaven ...


but do not plants grow toward light, do they not get PO'ed when you trim their leaves and how dare someone pull up a plant and eat it (ie. is this not murder)??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Wordly wisdom only goes so far. 

If you don't' see His ways in my days and nights/
you can hit my brakes you can stop my lights/
man I lost my rights I lost my life/
forget the money cars and toss that ice/
the cost is Christ/
and they could never offer me anything on the planet that'll cost that price/

Suffer Yeah do it for Christ if you trying to figure what to do with your life/
if you making money hope you doing it right/
because the money is Gods you better steward it right/
stay focused if you aint got no ride/
your life aint wrapped up in what you drive/
the clothes you wear the job you work/
the color your skin naw we Christian first/
*people living life for a job make a lil money start living for a car/
get em a house a wife kids and a dog when they retire they living high on the hog/*
but guess what they didn't ever really live at all to live is Christ yeah that's Paul I recall/
to die is gain so for Christ we give it all he's the treasure you'll never find in the mall/
Your money your singleness marriage talent and time/
they were loaned to you to show the world that Christ is Divine/
that's why it's Christ in my rhymes That's why it's Christ all the time/
my whole world is built around him He's the life in my lines/
I refused to waste my life he's too true ta chase that ice/
heres my gifts and time cause I'm constantly trying to be used to praise the Christ/
If he's truly raised to life then this news should change your life/
and by his grace you can put your faith in place that rules your days and nights/

I hope no one see judgement in these words. I sure don't. In fact the first time I heard this song, it moved me so much to tears to know that there is truth in what is being said.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=n0_pzJfrqiU


----------



## Knight~Ryder

The stuff going around on TV now like the "prosperity message" and all these supossed healings are not nessarily God. People are missing it if they need to see to believe. If our selfish motives get in the way of our relationship with God, then I tend to believe we never really had a realationship. But who am I to judge their heart.

I always check my underlying motives for everything I do or want, and as time has gone on I realize I don't want all the things I used to want.

To me it doesn't matter anymore about all the "logical" reasons why God may be real or may not be. I used to be so caught up in all that stuff, but now it doesn't effect me because I see it's irrelevent in my journey. My eyes have been more opened then ever before from being humble and not acting as if I know it all. 

I do have a peace that passed all understanding now, that I never used to have, and I can't explain it!  What more could I want in this crazy world. I don't expect anyone to understand and I can't push what I know to be true on anyone else. My only hope is that more people will be able to live in this peace, and not look for it in temporary outward things.


----------



## jones57742

KR: I believe that you and I are of the same thinking here with respect to a feller who died a couple of thousand years ago and three days later was up walking around again?

That is a very straightforward question and I would appreciate a yes or no response!

When I make statements to which I believe that rational responses are appropriate and you respond with Scripture you just alienate folks.

I am absolutely not attempting to do anything which would bring you to question your faith but just to bring you to understand that quoting the Scriptures in response to questions just turns folks off and hence is contrary to the Scriptures in which you believe.




jones57742 said:


> When put in the above context does not a belief in these simplistic examples appear inane?


You quote scriptures to these type of questions and you are defeating your mission as you just "turn everyone off".

When I quoted Paul's Letter concerning marriage you responded with scripture supporting your marriage; are you telling that the Scripture is internally inconsistent (A Yes or No answer would be appreciated here also!)???

Also you did not respond to the question concerning Passages where He/She repented. Why not?

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> KR: I believe that you and I are of the same thinking here with respect to a feller who died a couple of thousand years ago and three days later was up walking around again?


Logically sure I could say it never happened, but does that really matter? What I "believe" and know to be true in my heart are two very different things. There have been many so called "mysterious" things that happened and there is no explanation. Whether or not he physically resurected and appeared to people or not doesn't matter to me anymore. I could take the words for what they were in the bible and leave it at that and run around saying I believe them. I studied them so much to see who Jesus really was and it did not matter to me what others said about him. The truth of his message still lives today. I don't take away or add anything to the message, but I do show what he said in my daily life to others. As I stated in my testimony belief was not enough for me. I wanted to see the truth behind the words that were said. If people want to call me a "christiand" because of that then so be it. I don't label myself, and if that word is used I use it to describe who I am.



jones57742 said:


> That is a very straightforward question and I would appreciate a yes or no response!


Sure I could answer NO, but you have your answer. If everything is black and white to you, then you will see only what you CHOOSE to see.



jones57742 said:


> When I make statements to which I believe that rational responses are appropriate and you respond with Scripture you just alienate folks.


Okay, if you havent been able to summarize what I have said with everything I wrote down (scripture and non scripture) then what can I do more?



jones57742 said:


> I am absolutely not attempting to do anything which would bring you to question your faith but just to bring you to understand that quoting the Scriptures in response to questions just turns folks off and hence is contrary to the Scriptures in which you believe.


I have already questioned my "faith" a long time ago and because of that I grew even more. Remaing stagnant in my spiritual growth is not something I want. I see the world for what it is in all it's insanity and double standards and I know that no matter what I say or quote won't even matter. Someone will just come along and try to debunk it, intentinally or unintentional.




jones57742 said:


> You quote scriptures to these type of questions and you are defeating your mission as you just "turn everyone off".


If they are turned off then so be it, I don't intentionally try to make anyone feel a certain way. How can I cater to everyones views, beliefs, and opinions? I can't. I just do my best as I know how.



jones57742 said:


> When I quoted Paul's Letter concerning marriage you responded with scripture supporting your marriage; are you telling that the Scripture is internally inconsistent (A Yes or No answer would be appreciated here also!)???


No, it's not. Everything needs to be read in context. That is something I learned in 5th grade. You read the verse before, and the verse after. In fact you peice it together only after you have read the whole paragraph. That goes for the whole bible. Understanding how it was written and why it was written is a start. Logically though, we will never find that which we seek because everything we know has been tainted with mans existence.



jones57742 said:


> Also you did not respond to the question concerning Passages where He/She repented. Why not?


There is another figure called anthropopathism (man feeling), whereby human emotions are sometimes attributed to God. To say, therefore, that God “repented,” or that he was “grieved,” is simply a symbolic way of asserting that man’s conduct did not meet the divine standard. This language vividly portrays, from a human perspective, God’s displeasure at our rebellion.


----------



## elvis332

i belive in god!


----------



## Fishychic

jones57742 said:


> You quote scriptures to these type of questions and you are defeating your mission as you just "turn everyone off".


I agree. I don't think he's saying you need to cater to everyone's belief but obviously there are people in this thread that don't believe in the scripture or in God. So what do you do? Just respond in plain old English. They aren't going to respond to your response when quoting versus because it means nothing to them. They just want YOU to respond. You see?


----------



## predator

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

It's 2 hours... Let it buffer and dont watch the government cover up crap (which will knock out alot of the movie)... Just play around with it will you find the part about religions... Seirously sit and watch it... It's interesting which ever side your on...

-me


----------



## fishboy

The arguments in that video are very interesting, I've watched it before and a lot of literature along the same lines

However the topic of religion are far too conditioned for most to allow any flexibility in it's discussion when engaged with a party of opposing viewpoints. The "existence" of a God varies person to person based off those who wish to embrace the guidance of an supernatural force and those who with to live without said guidance. I personally do not believe in a supernatural force but I see no point to discuss it in depth as it generates a more circular type of conversation that never goes anywhere


----------



## Knight~Ryder

predator said:


> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197
> 
> It's 2 hours... Let it buffer and dont watch the government cover up crap (which will knock out alot of the movie)... Just play around with it will you find the part about religions... Seirously sit and watch it... It's interesting which ever side your on...
> 
> -me


Since you threw that movie out, I'll have to throw this response out.

Zeitgeist the response PART 1 http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=juKFSlQWojs


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Fishychic said:


> I agree. I don't think he's saying you need to cater to everyone's belief but obviously there are people in this thread that don't believe in the scripture or in God. So what do you do? Just respond in plain old English. They aren't going to respond to your response when quoting versus because it means nothing to them. They just want YOU to respond. You see?


Jones will also have to remember he quoted scriptures to me as well. I still don't know if he's doing it to throw me off, because it seems he knows the scriptures quite well. For what purpose he quotes them I do not know.

One thing I do know is

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

I am more open to what people are saying here then some are open to what I'm saying. I opened up this topic for a reason. I threw myself out in the open for a reason. I knew there would be many different views, opinions and beliefs.

What I'm saying is, what I know to be true is not by any belief system anymore, not even "Christianty" as many people know it. I realize God is even bigger then how I picture him to be. It took me some growth to get where I am now. Pride would have never allowed me to get this far.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Jones will also have to remember he quoted scriptures to me as well. I still don't know if he's doing it to throw me off, because it seems he knows the scriptures quite well. For what purpose he quotes them I do not know.


KR:

I was just very curious as to your thinking with respect the scriptures which I quoted.




Knight~Ryder said:


> Whether or not he physically resurected and appeared to people or not doesn't matter to me anymore.


Your thinking and mine are vastly different here!

I believe that this feller did and that this belief is the principal tenet of Christianity.

Without this occurrence the Bible is just another book and this is what is scary here to me.




Knight~Ryder said:


> There is another figure called anthropopathism (man feeling), whereby human emotions are sometimes attributed to God. To say, therefore, that God “repented,” or that he was “grieved,” is simply a symbolic way of asserting that man’s conduct did not meet the divine standard. This language vividly portrays, from a human perspective, God’s displeasure at our rebellion.


I have been around when these type of arguments were presented and subsequently studied a few more but IMHO they are facetious.

There can be no misunderstanding, IMHO, of the following in the 2nd book of Moses at Chapter 32, Paragraph 14 
*"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." * 
This paragraph has been perverted in several translations to suit various folks needs unfortunately.

What is scary down here in West Texas for us ******** is that a book and many orations by the feller with the little mustache (and this is just one example albeit extreme) brought death and destruction to a substantial portion of the Earth's human population by folks who "were at peace with themselves".

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Jones, my thinking has changed over the years. Everytime I read the scripture I get new revelation. I have humbled myself many times so that I may see what I have missed in the past. 

As far as Jesus being physically resurected logically I said no, but I also said that mysterious things happen that can't be explained and some can. So my answer is yes, and it has been explained. I run across these sites that say Jesus Never existed and give 4000 reasons why he didnt and I wonder what is the point in people writing all of it. It's like many people are afraid of delving into something deeper then that which they can see.

On your end of things I am finding it hard to see where your coming from, and this doesnt happen very often with me. I usually see what other people are saying and have been at that stage in my life or have passed it. I just find it really tough to see where your going with this...really I do. I need you to be a little more blunt with me. Trust me, I can handle it.

What the crusaders did back then are what people still do today. Many people say God willed something to suit thier own needs. There really is only one will of God, but many oversee it to fit their lifestyle.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Jones, my thinking has changed over the years. Everytime I read the scripture I get new revelation. I have humbled myself many times so that I may see what I have missed in the past.


Kr:

Why humbling??? 

Exactly how many times have you read the archaic but typically accepted King James version of the Bible from from front cover to back and reverse?

IMHO, forget what you have in your brain from sitting in a room with folks and an "instructor" who is espousing dogma and just read it!




Knight~Ryder said:


> As far as Jesus being physically resurected logically I said no, but I also said that mysterious things happen that can't be explained and some can. So my answer is yes


TG and no pun intended.

This belief, which has el zippo to do with logic, is the principal tenant of Christianity ie. Christ was crucified and three days later was up and walking around again: either you believe this or you do not and I do the implication of which is that the Bible is not just another book.




Knight~Ryder said:


> On your end of things I am finding it hard to see where your coming from, and this doesnt happen very often with me. I usually see what other people are saying and have been at that stage in my life or have passed it. I just find it really tough to see where your going with this...really I do. I need you to be a little more blunt with me. Trust me, I can handle it.


Kr: I hope so as I do not want to be responsible for an occurrence of a doubt in your faith.

Where I am coming from has been stated in my previous posts.

The belief in the existence of a Deity and the inquisition of nature are mutually exclusive subsets.

Ron can believe in a Deity yet still wonder how this Deity created life as well as how **** sapiens evolved from higher primates and how this Deity has manifested itself to other folks in our universe who can contemplate their own existence.




Knight~Ryder said:


> What the crusaders did back then are what people still do today. Many people say God willed something to suit their own needs. There really is only one will of God, but many oversee it to fit their lifestyle.


Absolutely and please reflect on the words in your many previous posts.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> Exactly how many times have you read the archaic but typically accepted King James version of the Bible from from front cover to back and reverse?


About 3 times. Once cover to cover with the bible I use everyday, once with a DVD, and once online. That is not counting all the other times I just open it up and focus on certain portions of scripture. Also not counting the times I just have my alone time with God. I will warn you though I am not like Jack Van Impe who can quote every single scripture and pin point any verse from anywhere in the bible at any givin time! :withstup:
Source: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Am043-Y3bgs :lol:

Jones, you nor any other could be the source of me doubting. I have been there. Have you ever seen the movie or read the book Pilgrims Progress? This really explains a lot of the stuff that we go through on our journey. Could be doubt, fear, guiltyness, and many other things we experience as we travel the narrow road. I have surpassed many of these things to get where I am now. I have seen many fall and stumble, but thanks be to God that I do none of it by my own strength. It is he who leads me.

If you read my testimony back on the 2nd or 3rd page you will see I did get past the "instructor" stage. Any pastor/preacher/instructor is still mans perspective and I know that's not what I follow. 

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, how did you get to this point in your life, and what label do you use to call yourself. That's if you do use one at all.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> Ron can believe in a Deity yet still wonder how this Deity created life as well as how **** sapiens evolved from higher primates and how this Deity has manifested itself to other folks in our universe who can contemplate their own existence.


Yes of course, we shouldnt all be mindless drones! :lol:


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> By the way, if you don't mind me asking, how did you get to this point in your life, and what label do you use to call yourself. That's if you do use one at all.


Not at all KR! as we are and to use words which I never did but many folks in the wing of the dorm in which I resided during college "getting down and getting funky here"!!

I call myself a Christian but nobody ever asks as they just "somehow know".

Come March 14th of this year Greystone will turn 25 and in West Texas that milestone just flat cannot be attained without adherence to the precepts as set forth in Bible or otherwise learned.

(And btw you just gotta be sh....ting me if on Sundays and/or Wednesdays you are not [or not have been] in a room with occasional discussion of historical literature which "can help explain the context of the Scripture"! I can just sense it from your words!)




Knight~Ryder said:


> Yes of course, we shouldnt all be mindless drones! :lol:


KR: I am very old here so please bear with me but you have not responded to or responded to what I believed were very straightforward questions with quotations of Scripture so shall we start from ground zero again?

How do you believe that the Deity has revealed his/her/its' self to countless number of life forms in our universe which can contemplate their own existence?

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> How do you believe that the Deity has revealed his/her/its' self to countless number of life forms in our universe which can contemplate their own existence?



Now that's a question and a half. I think you may need to dumb it down a bit and help me out on this one!

I believe the holy spirit is a very big key in this.

As far as you saying other life forms contemplating their own existence. What do you mean by that? Animals... what exactly?


----------



## Knight~Ryder

While I wait for your response, I'll post a tiny clip I came across today.

It sounds like Morgan Freeman did the voice of it.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2k6XalO1TIU


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Now that's a question and a half. I think you may need to dumb it down a bit and help me out on this one!
> 
> I believe the holy spirit is a very big key in this.
> 
> As far as you saying other life forms contemplating their own existence. What do you mean by that? Animals... what exactly?


KR: I will attempt to elucidate (and no you are not dumb: I believe that my writing style is the problem here).


In my brain these are the basics (as in physics):

a bovine (ie. a cow) cannot contemplate its' own existence but it does know when it is hungry and then it eats; knows when it is thirsty and then it drinks; knows when it is hot and then it lays in the shade of a mesquite tree, etc.

whereas a sapiens (ie. a human) accomplishes the above but also wonders why it exists which, IMHO, a bovine, or for another example albeit extreme an amoeba, does not.

TR


----------



## Fishychic

jones57742 said:


> How do you believe that the Deity has revealed his/her/its' self to countless number of life forms in our universe which can contemplate their own existence?
> 
> TR


Wouldn't be hard to say, how the deity has revealed his/her/its self if we do not know of any other life forms, in our universe, that can contemplate it's own existence? 

The only life form in our universe that we know of that can contemplate it's own existence are the humans on earth. 

Are you basically asking, " How does God reveal himself to humans?"?


----------



## TheOldSalt

It sounds to me like he's asking how God reveals Hinself to aliens. He's been on that one for awhile now but I'm not sure why. I'm sure he's going somewhere with it, though.
(_ of course, most Christians I know flatly deny the existence of aliens, even though nothing in the Bible says there aren't any..._ )


----------



## jones57742

TheOldSalt said:


> It sounds to me like he's asking how God reveals Hinself to aliens. He's been on that one for awhile now but I'm not sure why. I'm sure he's going somewhere with it, though.
> (_ of course, most Christians I know flatly deny the existence of aliens, even though nothing in the Bible says there aren't any..._ )


TOS:

I am not "going anywhere with this" but attempting to illicit input and hence seeking at least a partial resolution to the cognitive dissonance in my brain!!!!

Unless nature as we currently understand it is not temporally and spatially dependent tons of other folks (you can term them as aliens if you want but I do not) are out there.

And hence my question!!!

TR


----------



## Fishychic

I believe in ET. I cant fathom the thought of us being the only ones out here.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

I'm going to have to get back to you on this one Jones.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Okay, I thought about this for a little bit.
How do we know that animals don't contemplate their own existence, or that they know that deity is out there. For all we know, maybe they do. Science can only go so far and only explain so many things.

It seems God had an order for everything, and everything in it's place. We are here for 70 years and then poof we are gone like a vapour. So 70 years is nothing in terms of the bigger picture. We don't always know the bigger picture, but why do we constantly try to figure it out?

What have you come up with yourself concerning this issue?


----------



## Kyoberr

I totally agree there are definitely other worlds out there too. Like, a lot.

So, where did everything in the universe come from?


----------



## TheOldSalt

Temporally & spatially dependent....
Okay... I think I finally see your puzzle, but only barely. Or not. 
If life can exist only in certain places at certain times under certain conditions, then the very ordered nature of the universe dictates that several such loci must exist, and as such life must exist throughout it, if for no other reason than the universe needs places to put it. ( which I suspect gets closer to the real heart of the matter, namely, the question of how life is sustained in non-mortal form, and just how crowded is the universe with so many worlds harboring so much life over so much time... does it just churn about, or is it shunted out of the universe like gravitons? )

Heavy stuff. I don't think I'm stoned enough to try to contemplate it. This is probably not what you were even talking about anyway.

As for where everything in the universe came from, well, it probably came from outside the universe. The universe itself has to physically BE somewhere, and wherever that place is, I reckon that the ingredients were added from it, loaded into the great galactic pressure cooker, and KABLOOEY... here we are. 
Well, maybe not. My own actual theory is a bit more complicated than that... and a bit weirder.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

I wonder if any of us will really know how everything came to be. I'm not sure we will know when we die, but maybe we will. 

It excites me quite a bit to know how it all came to be, but then again, do we really need to know?

But when I really stop to question all of this, it just blows my mind.


----------



## Kyoberr

If it came from outside of the universe, then how did it get where it was before. It's difficult for me to believe it just formed from nothing. You guys can probably guess what I'm getting at.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Hey Jones, I was thinking about something when you talked about the crusaders.

First of all, many used the "will of God" as an excuse to fight. Same goes for the muslims.

Do you think the crusaders ever stumbled across the verse

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against *flesh and blood*, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Hey Jones, I was thinking about something when you talked about the crusaders.
> 
> First of all, many used the "will of God" as an excuse to fight. Same goes for the muslims.
> 
> Do you think the crusaders ever stumbled across the verse
> 
> Ephesians 6:12
> For we do not wrestle against *flesh and blood*, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.


KR: Do not remember talking about the Crusades (but I am old and could be wrong)

BUT

IMHO a substantial portion of the crusaders never "stumbled across" any verse as they were not educated in the Scriptures but were well educated by their teachers and the remainder extrapolated language to fit the desires.


Another issue which is worthy of cogitation is:
Does anyone doubt that if the radicals in world of today had the munitions and delivery capabilities of those munitions which the US has would they not annihilate us in the next fifteen minutes; proceed to occupy the United States and Canada; and cut the throats of any survivors including women and children?

How do you deal with something like this?

Before you respond to this post please respond to "revealing" question.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

I don't think anyone wanted to tackle that question you put forth there jonesy.


----------



## emc7

All of the scriptures contain enough justification for just about anything if quoted carefully by a manipulator with a goal. The crusaders, like todays jihadists, never read the whole books, just memorized the applicable Scriptures they were spoon-fed by their "teachers". Some of these suicide bombers memorize the whole book in Arabic, but don't speak Arabic. They are only given translations of the passages that support the goals of the teacher. This is the kind of thing that causes me to distrust all religious authority. Wherever there is a hierarchal command structure, the bottom level is told what to do and to leave the thinking to those who know better. People with their own agendas will inevitably infiltrate the hierarchy and use those beneath them to their own ends. The lose of Christian holy sites to the Muslims was an excuse for European authorities to reduce a excess population at home and grab for loot. The atrocities committed in the name of religion say a lot about human nature and nothing about God. 
IMO no human should be trusted with the authority to promise eternal damnation to the disobedient.


----------



## emc7

> Does anyone doubt that if the radicals in world of today had the munitions and delivery capabilities of those munitions which the US has would they not annihilate us in the next fifteen minutes; proceed to occupy the United States and Canada; and cut the throats of any survivors including women and children?


Some of them would. There is a least one vision of a Muslim world free of infidels. But I don't think most think that far ahead. They just want to "make us pay" for the suffering in places like Gaza. Its hard to envision negotiating a peace when most Americans don't remember 4 years ago and there are Libyans still hating the US for stopping the Tripoli pirates in the 1800s and Muslims trying to pay us back for the crusades (never mind the US didn't exist yet and we were founded by those fleeing religious persecution from the authors of the crusades).

Arabs feel like we are ignoring their pain and supporting Israel and corrupt oil-producing regimes. But I don't think they realize how completely clueless and ignorant Americans are about the world. Killing Americans gets our attention, but it won't get any sympathy or help for their cause. It only justifies the arming of our "allies" against "extremists" and perpetuates the status quo.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

We are constantly bombarded with messages to believe from popular culture, from churches, from friends, etc. It seems like everywhere we turn someone has something they want us to buy into. But which messages line up with the heart of God? And where do we go to filter what is a lie and what is truth?

*Check this song out, brand new fresh and hot off the press!*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYbF6_xqBo


----------



## aspects

there is no "god"... 


...that is all.


a reality check from your friendly neighborhood fish keeper.


----------



## lohachata

when you or your mate or baby lay dying who you gonna call??? we all become believers in god at one point or another.
but there are many on this earth that cannot bear the thought of anything being more omnipotent than they are or superior to them.
don't be afraid;he won't hurt you.........


----------



## aspects

i never said i didnt believe in a higher power, but blind faith is ridiculous.

ill tell you what. i invite all Christians to climb a mountain, find a cliff and jump. the hands of god should catch you.

remember. "god" has a plan for you.

bahhhhhhhhhaahhahahahhh


----------



## Againsthecurent

There's no such thing as an atheist in a fire fight! If you don't think so, you probably haven't been there.


----------



## TheOldSalt

Maybe you could into one of your handy volcanoes, aspects. It should help ease your transition quite a bit. Acclimation is key, after all, as any good fishkeeper knows.


----------



## Fishfirst

oh and if you understand faith... you understand free will... if you go and jump off a cliff... god will not catch you... no matter what his plan, that was your choice.


----------



## jones57742

Againsthecurent said:


> There's no such thing as an atheist in a fire fight! If you don't think so, you probably haven't been there.


Atc:

ROFLMAO: that is a very good one!!!!

I really do have tears of laughter going here!

I can envision one in that position thinking "God: please let me and my buddies get out this alive!"

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

aspects said:


> i never said i didnt believe in a higher power, but blind faith is ridiculous.
> 
> ill tell you what. i invite all Christians to climb a mountain, find a cliff and jump. the hands of god should catch you.
> 
> remember. "god" has a plan for you.
> 
> bahhhhhhhhhaahhahahahhh


 1Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, 2where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

3The devil said to him, *"If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread."*

4Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone.

5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

8Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

9The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. *"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down from here. *10For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

12Jesus answered, "It says: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.

13When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.


----------



## Buggy

Excellent reply KR! Just because God CAN save you, doesn't mean He WILL do it. It's all up to him.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

*Aspects what do you say to this.

My friend who was perfectly healthy for 29 years, just got diagnosed with colon cancer 8 months ago. He went through a whole bunch of tests and they had to pull out his intestine through his stomach and attach a bad to it. That's how he went to the washroom. The doctor said he was going to be fine because they caught it early. So they did radiation on him and shrunk the tumor. They were about to to surgery to remove the shrunken tumor when the doctor asked that he go and get scanned for bone cancer!

Now it wasn't a for sure that he had it, so he went and got the scan and waited for the results. All this time he was reading the word and just resting in God. Finally the results were in and he went to go get them. We drove over there and he went in while I waited. 

After about an hour he came walking out and by the look on his face I knew it was bad. He came in and let me know he had bone cancer and there were tumors on his pelvic area and it also spread to his ribs and that he has 2 months to live. THAT WAS DEVESTATING TO HEAR!

I stayed with him for a few days and he was in pain. The whole time he stayed in Gods word and stood on his promises. What faith! Now I knew if God wanted to heal him he would, but I knew I didnt need to "beg" God to do something. Of course I wanted him to live, he was so young, but such a man of God. Good and clean hearted.

We decided to go to a church service and he got some praying for him. (not talking about what you see on TV) These people at the church never saw him before but were in tears for him as they were praying for him. The pastor told him that God would do a work in him this very day. He believed that and just rested in God. About 2 weeks later he went in again to get checked out and guess what.

EVERY SINGLE BIT OF CANCER HAD LEFT HIS BODY AND WAS PERFECTLY HEALED!!!! The doctors were so dumbfounded and confused and could hardly speak. My friend just said "My God is amazing" He is alive and well to this day.

All the doctors said they couldnt do anything for him, but they didn't know Jesus, the ultimate healer.

Now if he wouldnt have been healed I still would have trusted Gods plan and will. I have had other family die from the same sort of thing, but I never lost heart.

What do you say to this?

"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us."*


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Oh and one more thing.

I can testify to this: God has turned every difficulty, every hardship, every loss, every seperation, no matter what, for my good & his glory EVERY SINGLE TIME.


----------



## jones57742

*Lucy*

Folks:

In my brain the concept of the existence of a Deity and the concept of evolution are not mutually exclusive.

I believe that some of yall will enjoy reading this *article*.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Yeah, i see what your saying. To me evolution doesnt matter. Its just another thing that can be used to take our focus off of God and debate about things that really don't matter.


----------



## FlatLine

I believe in a form of God, mostly Christian based due to my up-bringing. I however do not believe the Bible, pretty much at all. I used to be heavily involved in my local church and church groups, but realized that it just wasn't for me.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> but realized that it just wasn't for me.


You are right about that my friend, it isn't just for you, it's for everyone! Also everyone who wants to hear about the greatest love story ever told. 
Some people don't want to accept it because it goes against their lifestyle and they feel guilty. I'm not saying this is the case with you. Guiltyness however is not from God.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Yeah, i see what your saying. To me evolution doesnt matter. Its just another thing that can be used to take our focus off of God and debate about things that really don't matter.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Once again we are really talking past each other here!

The understanding of the effective mechanisms of evolution (I do not subscribe to all of the principal tenet of Darwinism) and the various stages thereof which resulted in the current fauna and flora which inhabit the Earth does matter to me.

Similarly the understanding the precepts which the Deity has provided to us is important.

Once again the "real definition" of a Christian IMHO is the belief that about 2000 years ago a feller was crucified, entombed, and three days later was up and walking around again.

Without this belief "christianity" is just another philosophy out there except that the Bible does establish the logic upon which to support the philosophy (as I doubt that out religious writings do either).

You have indicated that you are "at peace"; well many other folks out there are at peace with no or minimal knowledge of the Bible via their self derived:
philosophy; belief in one of the published philosophies; or subscription to another religion.

TR


----------



## TheOldSalt

It seems to me that any God would have the good sense to implement a system of self-adjustment and correction to ensure that His creations endured without His constant effort. Otherwise it would just be work,work,work all the time, and I'm sure He'd probably have much more important stuff to do than constantly go around tweaking things. I look at evolution as proof of God, not evidence against Him.

As a biologist, I am going to ruffle some feathers and declare that Evolution is a crock.

Heh,heh... okay, _Darwinian_ evolution is a crock. we all know that evolution is very real and measurable, but there's just no way it works the way Darwin thought. He missed a few major pieces of the puzzle, but we haven't found them yet either, so we can't blame him. I have a weird crackpot theory of my own on this, actually:

I think the so-called "junk DNA" found in all cells that apparently doesn't do anything actually does quite a bit. If the active DNA can be compared to software applications, then I think maybe the other stuff is the "operating system." After all, while we know what happens when cells divide, we still haven't figured out WHY or how they know how to control all the extraordinarily intricate steps involved. i think the "operating system" DNA is what controls this. Further, I think that this stuff also contains many resource packets of various things which can be called upon under various stimuli. The reason I think this is that the evolutionary process seems to actually be very rapid according to what we've observed and the fossil record, and having big chunks of readymade instructions in handy reserve would be very useful in speeding up the process.

Darwinian evolution calls for the accrual of genes over long periods of time until something improves, but genes are lost over time as well. That means it just doesn't make sense that enough new genes could be collected to make something useful before just as many were lost, stalling development completely. Think about it; it takes about 200 genes to make a single flagellum. It would take a long time indeed to gather up those 200 genes before losing so many along the way that a flagellum could never form. IF, however, all that junk DNA was prepackaged with resources like Flagellum 1.02 and Eyeball 1.00 and Notochord 1.3 etcetera, then it would be easy for a cell to occasionally activate some of those resource paks for rapid evolution when needed.

Just a wacky idea.

As for the creationist vs evolutionist thing, I should like to mention what happens with many biologists. Most of us believe whatever we were taught as we grew, but then we get "smart & educated" and lean to evolution. Many of us stay there, depending on our discipline, but those biologists who delve deep into the secrets of life itself and into cellular mechanics almost always return to religion. As odd as it may sound, when it comes to trying to explain some of the amazing things that happen at this near-molecular level, intelligent design is the main thing that makes any scientific sense.* Weird, eh? By the way, the strange goings-on in a cell very, very much resemble something from a Dr. Seuss cartoon! It's hilarious.

*- _Colonization from other worlds also works, and explains why all the junk DNA found in all species on Earth is so similar, suggesting it came from a very limited beginning source. Intelligent design also covers that one. Darwinian Evolution does not cover it, since over time each branch of life should have gained/lost DNA independently to the extent where having it match today would simply be unthinkable._


----------



## FlatLine

jones57742 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Once again we are really talking past each other here!
> 
> The understanding of the effective mechanisms of evolution (I do not subscribe to all of the principal tenet of Darwinism) and the various stages thereof which resulted in the current fauna and flora which inhabit the Earth does matter to me.
> 
> Similarly the understanding the precepts which the Deity has provided to us is important.
> 
> Once again the "real definition" of a Christian IMHO is the belief that about 2000 years ago a feller was crucified, entombed, and three days later was up and walking around again.
> 
> Without this belief "christianity" is just another philosophy out there except that the Bible does establish the logic upon which to support the philosophy (as I doubt that out religious writings do either).
> 
> You have indicated that you are "at peace"; well many other folks out there are at peace with no or minimal knowledge of the Bible via their self derived:
> philosophy; belief in one of the published philosophies; or subscription to another religion.
> 
> TR


This has been my very thought as well. I don't understand how God is the only God, or the God, when there are other religions, faiths and beliefs with people who follow those just as passionately and devoted as Christians do.

The only thing that could be deduced from that in my opinion is that there is "something greater" to worship.


----------



## WildForFish

Fishfirst said:


> oh and if you understand faith... you understand free will... if you go and jump off a cliff... god will not catch you... no matter what his plan, that was your choice.


 Thank-you

WFF


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Many conceive of Christianity as another power-bloc that should exert its resources to solving the world's problems. Christianity does not exist to solve all the world's problems, but to manifest the character of Christ in the midst of whatever problems may exist.

Christianity is *NOT* Religion
Christianity is *NOT* a Book-religion
Christianity is *NOT* Morality
Christianity is *NOT* a Belief-system
Christianity is *NOT* Epistemology
Christianity is *NOT* an Ideological Option
Christianity is *NOT* Role-playing
Christianity is *NOT* an ...ism
Christianity is *NOT* Problem-solving
*Christianity IS Christ*


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Many conceive of Christianity as another power-bloc that should exert its resources to solving the world's problems. Christianity does not exist to solve all the world's problems, but to manifest the character of Christ in the midst of whatever problems may exist.

Christianity is *NOT* Religion
Christianity is *NOT* a Book-religion
Christianity is *NOT* Morality
Christianity is *NOT* a Belief-system
Christianity is *NOT* Epistemology
Christianity is *NOT* an Ideological Option
Christianity is *NOT* Role-playing
Christianity is *NOT* an ...ism
Christianity is *NOT* Problem-solving
*Christianity IS Christ*


----------



## jones57742

jones57742 said:


> The understanding of the effective mechanisms of evolution (I do not subscribe to all of the principal tenets of Darwinism) and the various stages thereof which resulted in the current fauna and flora which inhabit the Earth does matter to me.





TheOldSalt said:


> Heh,heh... okay, _Darwinian_ evolution is a crock. we all know that evolution is very real and measurable, but there's just no way it works the way Darwin thought.


TOS: I do not really agree as per my original post, ie. "all of the principal tenets of Darwinism" but having said that your education in biology is easily 50X mine.




TheOldSalt said:


> I have a weird crackpot theory of my own on this, actually: ...


*Several Items:*


*One*

Talking about having to clear cobwebs out of portions of the cranial cavity for what I consider to be limited understanding!!!!

*Two*

Folks: It is finally Ron's turn for translation as many of yall have done for me.

As I am certain that everyone knows DNA determines an individual's height, hair color, eye color, etc but DNA governs the characteristics of all plants and animals, ie. allows the production of a strain of Guppies or the production of a strain of Round Leaf Anubias which is faster growing with larger leaves than the typical variety.

Even a mild explanation of *DNA (Deoxyribonucleic acid)* is way beyond the scope of this post.

When TOS says "unused" and as he subsequently explains he means *currently *the purpose of which has not been ascertained but he postulates that these purposes may include control as well as *catalysis*.


*Three*



TheOldSalt said:


> Just a wacky idea.


Yea: like several Ron has posted but which the big boys will either not contemplate or will not publish because this "would tear up" the world in which they currently live (not to mention making them look very silly due to their previous published postulations).


*Four*



TheOldSalt said:


> but those biologists who delve deep into the secrets of life itself and into cellular mechanics almost always return to religion


In scope a physical explanation of cellular mechanics is simplistic as these mechanics create order or structure or whatever you want to call it.

I will try this one last time (well probably not)! and this is obviously a hypothetical.

Out there somewhere in a region of the universe not subject to gravitational effects a massless spherical containment vessel exists in which many electrons are placed in small sphere.

At some time later these electrons will be "running around everywhere" and chaos in the containment vessel will be evident.

Now envision supplying significant energy (in the form of a negative electric charge) to the walls of the containment vessel.

At some time later the electrons will once be grouped in their small sphere and hence order has been attained from chaos with the input of energy.

In the broad scope does this not seem familiar with respect to the creation of life from chaos when energy from the Sun is available? and the evolution of life once life exists via the internal generation of energy?

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

From an atheist's perspective, the Big Bang is how this whole thing came to be. One should also note that the big bang is said to have created time, as well. 

But....

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginining with God. 
3. All things came into being by him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3.

For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16.

Do people think they will ever reach any other conclusion. More knowledge is coming in day by day, but nothing will ever be revealed.

Remember Faith is the *substance *of things not seen


----------



## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> From an atheist's perspective, the Big Bang is how this whole thing came to be. One should also note that the big bang is said to have created time, as well.
> 
> But....
> 
> 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
> 2. The same was in the beginining with God.
> 3. All things came into being by him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3.
> 
> For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16.
> 
> Do people think they will ever reach any other conclusion. More knowledge is coming in day by day, but nothing will ever be revealed.
> 
> Remember Faith is the *substance *of things not seen


So what you're saying, is since it's all theory anyways, we won't know the truth until it's reveled? Makes sense to me.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> So what you're saying, is since it's all theory anyways, we won't know the truth until it's reveled? Makes sense to me.


It has already been revealed. A person who isn't spiritual doesn't accept the things of God's Spirit, for they are nonsense to him, and he is not able to have knowledge of them, because such knowledge comes only through the Spirit.

I can read all day long, debate all day long, think all day long, and it won't matter until it becomes alive in me. Not just a mental concept.


----------



## jones57742

KR: I would very much appreciate your thoughts concerning each of the comments in my previous post!



Knight~Ryder said:


> *Christianity IS Christ*





Knight~Ryder said:


> Not just a mental concept.


KR: Kinda kidding here but is this not the same feller who had doubts with respect to the three day, the stone rolling and the tomb exposed, etc?

TR


----------



## shev

Knight~Ryder said:


> From an atheist's perspective, the Big Bang is how this whole thing came to be. One should also note that the big bang is said to have created time, as well.
> 
> But....
> 
> 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
> 2. The same was in the beginining with God.
> 3. All things came into being by him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. John 1:1-3.
> 
> For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16.
> 
> Do people think they will ever reach any other conclusion. More knowledge is coming in day by day, but nothing will ever be revealed.
> 
> Remember Faith is the *substance *of things not seen


----------



## mrmoby

shev said:


>


That pretty much sums it up.......


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Mr.Moby the quote you have says this.
_
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.-_
Siddhartha Gautama

I wrote something earlier on page 2 the same thing I am going to write now.

There are many things created by man that are not religion related.
You grew up and listened to your parents right?
You went to school and listened to everything the teachers taught you right?
You do things a certain way because other people do it that way right?

Haven't we been preconditioned to think the way we do today? Where does our own reason and common sense come in?

I would very much like to hear where you got your reasoning and common sense in life.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> There are many things created by man that are not religion related. *Yes*
> 
> You grew up and listened to your parents right?*Yes*
> 
> You went to school and listened to everything the teachers taught you right?*Yes*
> 
> You do things a certain way because other people do it that way right?*No*





Knight~Ryder said:


> I would very much like to hear ...





jones57742 said:


> KR: I would very much appreciate your thoughts concerning each of the comments in my previous post!
> 
> KR: Kinda kidding here but is this not the same feller who had doubts with respect to the three day, the stone rolling and the tomb exposed, etc?
> 
> TR


KR:

Please respond as I would *like to hear* also!

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Jones forgive me as I get confused as to what you want to hear from me.


----------



## aspects

why are there no dinosaurs in the bible?


----------



## lohachata

since cleveland city schools are pretty crappy;i sent my daughter to a lutheran school for grades 6,7&8.i found it interesting that they believe that dinosaurs never existed.
that;to me;is like burying ones head in the sand.


----------



## Againsthecurent

lohachata said:


> since cleveland city schools are pretty crappy;i sent my daughter to a lutheran school for grades 6,7&8.i found it interesting that they believe that dinosaurs never existed.
> that;to me;is like burying ones head in the sand.


I have never heard of this. There are many creatures not mentioned in the bible. That doesn't mean that they did not exist. Am I to believe that some of you expect all living things to be listed in the Bible? That would make for a very lengthy book. I know quite a few Biologists that would love a reference like that. Sorry lohachata, but I would have to realy question that school.


----------



## Pareeeee

Knight Ryder...
The Bible doesn't need defending and neither does God. God can take care of Himself (i say that respectfully of course)

God exhorts the Christian to tell others of the Gospel. That is our 'job' so to speak.

The importance and purpose for the scriptures is that God sent His only son, Jesus Christ to this earth to die on the cross for us - He did it to pay the price for all the horrible sins we have committed against Him.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

Acts 16:31 ...Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 

ok that's my bit.


-- what? they don't believe in dinosaurs??!? huh???


----------



## aspects

Againsthecurent said:


> I have never heard of this. There are many creatures not mentioned in the bible. That doesn't mean that they did not exist. Am I to believe that some of you expect all living things to be listed in the Bible? That would make for a very lengthy book. I know quite a few Biologists that would love a reference like that. Sorry lohachata, but I would have to realy question that school.


I wouldn't imagine every type of turtle to be named specifically but its pretty hard to leave out creatures that stand thousands of feet tall and destructive by nature. They found room for talking snakes and bushes, magical parting seas that allowed people to walk across the ocean floor, yet not one mention of "the brontosaurus knocked over my house again". Hahahaha. Give me a break. 12'000 years of "documented" genealogy in your little science fiction novel but not one mention 
of any giant creatures roaming the countryside. You'd think at least one person would have made mention of them.

There's proof dinosaurs existed...

What about your "god"?





Bahahahahaha. Blind faith = FAIL


----------



## Pareeeee

aspects said:


> I wouldn't imagine every type of turtle to be named specifically but its pretty hard to leave out creatures that stand thousands of feet tall and destructive by nature. They found room for talking snakes and bushes, magical parting seas that allowed people to walk across the ocean floor, yet not one mention of "the brontosaurus knocked over my house again". Hahahaha. Give me a break. 12'000 years of "documented" genealogy in your little science fiction novel but not one mention
> of any giant creatures roaming the countryside. You'd think at least one person would have made mention of them.
> 
> There's proof dinosaurs existed...
> 
> What about your "god"?


“A blind man knows he cannot see, and is glad to be led, though it be by a dog; but he that is blind in his understanding, which is the worst blindness of all, believes he sees as the best, and scorns a guide” - Samuel Butler

You obviously didn't read our 'little science fiction novel' then. You shouldn't make accusations that have no foundation in truth.

There are no 'magical talking snakes'. The 'serpent' in Genesis is Satan - God calls Satan a "serpent" several times in the scriptures. It is a metaphor. Not a literal snake! 
The Bible also likens Christ to a "Lamb". There are no magical talking lambs either.

Read Job 40 and 41. It talks about these huge creatures that you say it doesn't mention...

Behemoth and Leviathan

Behemoth "eateth grass as an ox" 

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together. 
(note the type of cedar that grows over in that area of the world is the Cedar of Lebanon, which is a massive tree. It is a metaphor for how massive the tail of this creature is)

Job 40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron. 
(strong creature)

This creature must drink huge amounts of water. It says that "he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth. "

That is only one of these creatures. Read on into Job 41 to find out about Leviathan...

Anyway, you state a very poor argument. The Bible doesn't mention a lot of creatures. It doesn't say anything about giraffes...but we know they exist! It says nothing of lizards...chickens...elephants...etc...
Just because something is not mentioned does not mean it does not exist...


----------



## Pareeeee




----------



## Knight~Ryder

*Does God exist? It is interesting that so much attention is given to this debate. The latest surveys tell us that over 90% of people in the world today believe in the existence of God or some higher power. Yet somehow the responsibility is placed on those who believe God does exist to somehow prove that He really does exist. It would be more logical if it were the other way around.*

However, the existence of God cannot be proven or disproved. The Bible even says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists, “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith. "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'” (John 20:29).

That does not mean, however, that there is no evidence of God’s existence. The Bible states, “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset—all of these things point to a Creator God. If these were not enough, there is also evidence of God in our own hearts. Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men…” There is something deep within us that recognizes there is something beyond this life and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but God’s presence in us and through us is still there. Despite all of this, the Bible warns us that some will still deny God’s existence, “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1). Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of some kind of God, there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

In addition to the biblical arguments for God’s existence, there are logical arguments. First, there is the ontological argument. The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “that than which no greater can be conceived.” It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, but that would contradict God's very definition. A second is the teleological argument. The teleological argument is that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if earth were even a few hundred miles closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10 to the 243rd power (that is a 10 followed by 243 0's). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
*
A third logical argument for God’s existence* is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” something is God. A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?

*Despite all of this, the Bible tells us that people will reject the clear and undeniable knowledge of God* and instead believe a lie. Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God, “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).

People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23; 6:23). If God exists, then we are accountable for our actions to Him. If God does not exist, then we can do whatever we want without having to worry about God judging us. That is why evolution is so strongly clung to by many in our society—to give people an alternative to believing in a Creator God. God exists and ultimately everyone knows that He exists. The very fact that some attempt so aggressively to disprove His existence is in fact an argument for His existence.

Allow one last argument for God’s existence. How do we know God exists? As Christians, we know God exists because we speak to Him every day. We do not audibly hear Him speaking back to us, but we sense His presence, we feel His leading, we know His love, we desire His grace. Things have occurred in our lives that have no other possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but to acknowledge and praise His existence. None of these arguments in and of themselves can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is so plainly clear. In the end, God’s existence must be accepted by faith (Hebrews 11:6). Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark; it is safe step into a well-lit room where 90% of people are already standing.


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## Pareeeee

and i thought my post was long. lol


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Pareeeee said:


> Knight Ryder...
> The Bible doesn't need defending and neither does God. God can take care of Himself (i say that respectfully of course)


Yes pareeeee I agree with this and know in my heart. I live it out daily in my life. On paper though this is what it looks like! haha :lol: A long and drawn out process.....


----------



## mrmoby

Knight Rider.....

You grew up and listened to your parents right? Not neccesarily

You went to school and listened to everything the teachers taught you right? Not neccesarily

You do things a certain way because other people do it that way right? Absolutely not.

I can't tell you how my common sense developed, can you tell me how yours did? I do know that I can sit back and look at things reasonably. When I do that, this little fable about the invisible man in the sky, who watches all that you do, well, it sets of my B.S. detector.

I know that you, and others feel the bible is infallible, but can you explain why, outside of the circular logic that is the "Wheel of Power"?


----------



## Againsthecurent

aspects said:


> I wouldn't imagine every type of turtle to be named specifically but its pretty hard to leave out creatures that stand thousands of feet tall and destructive by nature. They found room for talking snakes and bushes, magical parting seas that allowed people to walk across the ocean floor, yet not one mention of "the brontosaurus knocked over my house again". Hahahaha. Give me a break. 12'000 years of "documented" genealogy in your little science fiction novel but not one mention
> of any giant creatures roaming the countryside. You'd think at least one person would have made mention of them.
> 
> There's proof dinosaurs existed...
> 
> What about your "god"?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bahahahahaha. Blind faith = FAIL



Sorry you missed the point. Evolution also exists, species die and become extinct while others evolve, and so on. Your argument of the lack of dinosaurs is quite funny. It doesn't mention the fish in our tanks either. Aspect, can you prove how the earth was created? No disrespect intended.

Do I believe in God.....yes, do I believe the Bible is entirely correct.....no, it was written by man. To each their own belief and faith.


----------



## aspects

When did I mention anything about creation or evolution? I think its you who missed the point.
I'm pretty sure I said I'm aware all creatures won't be mentioned. Please read thoroughly before responding.

This is the issue anytime this topic comes up. Faith is just that, "faith". The entire concept is based on absolutely no fact and the only recourse you ever hear is "I don't have to prove my faith" when the fact is, they CAN'T .
Blind faith is a ridiculous concept that has taken the world by storm. Too bad people don't think for themselves anymore. 

I don't condemn people for their "faith" but I refuse to listen to someone quote harry potter in order to attempt to prove that magic exists. Give me a break.
Believe what you want. That's your business, but don't pust it on others.
I say show me your "god" or get it out of my face.


----------



## Pareeeee

it's not in your face, and I for one am not 'pushing' anything - I could say you are 'pushing' your beliefs - the way you are mocking and poking fun at what Christians believe as if your way is the best way. Why can't people have a good deep discussion without getting angry? I don't understand....

it doesn't have to be 'in your face' - you're choosing to come read this thread lol


----------



## Pareeeee

I tried to watch the video at the beginning of this thread. I only got about 30 seconds through...it was confusing...

:S


----------



## Againsthecurent

aspects said:


> When did I mention anything about creation or evolution? I think its you who missed the point.
> I'm pretty sure I said I'm aware all creatures won't be mentioned. Please read thoroughly before responding.
> 
> This is the issue anytime this topic comes up. Faith is just that, "faith". The entire concept is based on absolutely no fact and the only recourse you ever hear is "I don't have to prove my faith" when the fact is, they CAN'T .
> Blind faith is a ridiculous concept that has taken the world by storm. Too bad people don't think for themselves anymore.
> 
> I don't condemn people for their "faith" but I refuse to listen to someone quote harry potter in order to attempt to prove that magic exists. Give me a break.
> Believe what you want. That's your business, but don't pust it on others.
> I say show me your "god" or get it out of my face.



I think you misunderstood me aspect. I didn't mean that you did or did not mention anything about creation or evolution? I brought those up as to where my beliefs come from.



> Blind faith is a ridiculous concept that has taken the world by storm. Too bad people don't think for themselves anymore.


Faith in God has been around for 2000+ years, so it is not concept that has taken anything by storm. And yes I do think for myself. I am not pushing anything on you or putting it in your face. This was a discussion that you decided to enter with snide remarks and your beliefs.


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## Pareeeee

lol I think he's just venting. Maybe had a bad day? Anyway, yeah. Actually atheism and evolution are really the things that have taken the world by storm...since faith in God has been around for about 6000 years, and faith in Jesus Christ about 2000 years.

I know God exists, and that's enough for me. Prayer is an amazing evidence of Him. He does answer the prayers of the believer...and it's amazing what He can do...


----------



## Againsthecurent

Pareeeee said:


> lol I think he's just venting. Maybe had a bad day? Anyway, yeah. Actually atheism and evolution are really the things that have taken the world by storm...since faith in God has been around for about 6000 years, and faith in Jesus Christ about 2000 years.
> 
> I know God exists, and that's enough for me. Prayer is an amazing evidence of Him. He does answer the prayers of the believer...and it's amazing what He can do...


6000 years, my mistake thinking AD! Thanks for the correction.


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## Pareeeee

lol no poblem


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Knight~Ryder said:


> Many conceive of Christianity as another power-bloc that should exert its resources to solving the world's problems. Christianity does not exist to solve all the world's problems, but to *manifest the character of Christ in the midst of whatever problems may exist.*
> 
> Christianity is *NOT* Religion
> Christianity is *NOT* a Book-religion
> Christianity is *NOT* Morality
> Christianity is *NOT* a Belief-system
> Christianity is *NOT* Epistemology
> Christianity is *NOT* an Ideological Option
> Christianity is *NOT* Role-playing
> Christianity is *NOT* an ...ism
> Christianity is *NOT* Problem-solving
> *Christianity IS Christ*


What don't people understand about this?


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## Knight~Ryder

aspects said:


> I don't condemn people for their "faith"





aspects said:


> ill tell you what. i invite all Christians to climb a mountain, find a cliff and jump. the hands of god should catch you.
> 
> remember. "god" has a plan for you.
> 
> bahhhhhhhhhaahhahahahhh


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## Pareeeee

The problem is a lot of other religions have taken on the name "Christian" making it confusing for the non-Christian. I say I am a Born Again Christian - meaning I believe in Jesus, have confessed my sins and asked Him to save me. 
Thank GOD Jesus saves!!!

- A lot of people put words into our mouths that aren't there...I would never do something foolish like jump off a cliff and believe God will catch me. God gave us common sense for a reason...


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## Knight~Ryder

Pareeeee said:


> - A lot of people put words into our mouths that aren't there...I would never do something foolish like jump off a cliff and believe God will catch me. God gave us common sense for a reason...


Ahhhh yes. Read page 7.

I also wrote what happened in my friends life concerning his healing and aspects never replied to that one.


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## TheOldSalt

This thread is starting to lose it's entertainment value, and is also turning hostile. I must admit that it took a lot longer than I had anticipated, so kudos to you all for that.


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## aspects

Never saw it or bothered to read it. Fact of the matter is your si called miracle is nothing more then an undiagnosed medical issue. Like I said. And you've even said. There is no proof of your god. Sorry.


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## Pareeeee

KR - I had a similar thing happen in my family - my grandpa was diagnosed with cancer. He had a couple spots on his liver. We all started praying for him - our family and church family. When he went back to the hospital they couldn't find the cancer - it was gone. The doctors said it was 'impossible'...

amazing isn't it?


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## Knight~Ryder

Pareeeee said:


> KR - I had a similar thing happen in my family - my grandpa was diagnosed with cancer. He had a couple spots on his liver. We all started praying for him - our family and church family. When he went back to the hospital they couldn't find the cancer - it was gone. The doctors said it was 'impossible'...
> 
> amazing isn't it?


I believe it! I have seen with my own eyes. Right now I am dealing with my uncle who has cancer as well. He is taking it day by day, but does not have much time to live.


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## Pareeeee

Aspects:
Let's hypothetically say that you know half of absolutely everything there is to know. Is it not possible that God could possibly exist in the other half that you don't know??


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## Knight~Ryder

This is simply outstanding. You will hear words that will open your mind to possibilities. 

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx3tCeagaxE
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8axGaJpj8A


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## COM

I've been reading this thread for a while... it seems to have turned a bit nasty over the past day or so.

I'm not one to engage in religious debate. However I will reference back to the circle graphic posted here earlier. You can take it two ways: if you're a cynic, you can use it as an argument against the whole religulous deal. If you're a believer, it can make sense. The difference? I think that is what would be called "faith."


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## Knight~Ryder

*This is simply outstanding. You will hear words that will open your mind to possibilities.*

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx3tCeagaxE
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8axGaJpj8A


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## Knight~Ryder

I don't pack a matic. ANTI VIOLENCE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk2LfTkdnUA

I don't pack a matic but I pack a mathew mark luke and John cause the war is on.....


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## Pareeeee

Knight~Ryder said:


> I don't pack a matic. ANTI VIOLENCE!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk2LfTkdnUA
> 
> I don't pack a matic but I pack a mathew mark luke and John cause the war is on.....


Too many youtube videos man...people don't want to spend time watching vids...especially if they have short attention spans like me


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## Knight~Ryder

Yes, but it's a hot song, you gotta admit! ;-)


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## Knight~Ryder

Recently someone asked me this question, so I'll post it here. You are very right jones when you say this is what makes "christianity" very different from any other religion in this world.

Question: *"Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ true?"*

Answer: Scripture presents conclusive evidence that Jesus Christ was in fact resurrected from the dead. Christ’s resurrection is recorded in Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; and John 20:1-21:25. The resurrected Christ also appeared in the Book of Acts (Acts 1:1-11). From these passages you can gain several "proofs" of Christ’s resurrection. First, look at the dramatic change in the disciples. They went from scared and hiding in a room, to courageous and sharing the Gospel throughout the world. What else could explain this dramatic change other than the risen Christ appearing to them?

Second, look at the life of the Apostle Paul. What changed him from being a persecutor of the church into an apostle for the church? It was when the risen Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1-6). Third, another convincing "proof" is the empty tomb. If Christ were not raised, then where is His body? The disciples and others saw the tomb where He was buried. When they returned, His body was not there. Angels declared that He had been raised from the dead as He had promised (Matthew 28:5-7). Fourth, additional evidence of His resurrection is the many people He appeared to (Matthew 28:5,9,16-17; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:13-35; John 20:19,24,26-29; 21:1-14; Acts 1:6-8; 1 Corinthians 15:5-7).

Another key truth to why the resurrection of Jesus must be true is the great amount of weight the Apostles gave to Jesus' resurrection. A key passage on Christ’s resurrection is 1 Corinthians 15. In this chapter, the Apostle Paul explains why it is crucial to understand and believe in Christ’s resurrection. The resurrection is important for the following reasons: (1) If Christ was not raised from the dead, believers will not be either (1 Corinthians 15:12-15). (2) If Christ was not raised from the dead, His sacrifice for sin was not sufficient (1 Corinthians 15:16-19). Jesus’ resurrection proved that His death was accepted by God as the atonement for our sins. If He had simply died and stayed dead, that would indicate His sacrifice was not sufficient. As a result, believers would not be forgiven for their sins, and they would still remain dead after they die (1 Corinthians 15:16-19) – there would be no such thing as eternal life (John 3:16). "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep" (1 Corinthians 15:20 NAS). Christ has been raised from the dead – He is the first fruits of our resurrection.

(3) All those who believe in Him will be raised to eternal life just as He was (1 Corinthians 15:20-23). 1 Corinthians 15 goes on to describe how Christ’s resurrection proves His victory over sin, and provides us the power to live victoriously over sin (1 Corinthians 15:24-34). (4) It describes the glorious nature of the resurrection body we will receive (1 Corinthians 15:35-49). (5) It proclaims that as a result of Christ’s resurrection, all who believe in Him have ultimate victory over death (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). What a glorious truth the resurrection of Christ is! "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:58). According to the Bible, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is most definitely true. The Bible records Christ's resurrection, records that it was eye-witnessed by over 400 people, and proceeds to build crucial Christian doctrine on the historical fact of Jesus' resurrection.


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## Knight~Ryder

Jones I wanted to ask you something. Question will be after all I write here.

Okay, I just came across a portion of scripture that I never did really see until now. It stuck out big time tonight as I was reading. 

This was after Jesus was ressurected, and I find it so uplifting, amazing, and wonderful that no where in this world can you find something like this except when we are experiencing oneness with God.

Here is the scripture.

John 20 11-25
11Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "*Come and have breakfast*." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 13Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, *"Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"*
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, *"Feed my lambs."*

16Again Jesus said, *"Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"*
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, *"Take care of my sheep."*

17 The third time he said to him, *"Simon son of John, do you love me?"*
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, *"Do you love me?"* He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

Jesus said,  *"Feed my sheep.* 18 *I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." * 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, *"Follow me!"*

20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22Jesus answered, *"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."* 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, *"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"*

24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

*25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.*

Have you ever read this and if so, what is your take on this. I find it to be the most beautiful passages of scripture ever.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> You are very right jones when you say this is what makes "christianity" very different from any other religion in this world.


KR: you have come a long way here but I did not say different I said definition.




Knight~Ryder said:


> Question: *"Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ true?"*


KR: your doubt (I believe) in one of your previous posts is evidencing itself here as there is no need to prove the resurrection!

If you believe it you are a Christian otherwise you are not: Very simplistic as in physics.




Knight~Ryder said:


> Jones I wanted to ask you something. Question will be after all I write here.
> Have you ever read this and if so, what is your take on this. I find it to be the most beautiful passages of scripture ever.


KR: As I indicated in a previous post I have read the Bible from front cover to back several times.

Although the Bible is still a mystery to me I do believe that when time no longer exists we will have the opportunity to explain what we did and why we did it when we were mortal.

TR


----------



## s13

What if Mary just wasn't faithful and it was a coverup? =O (see which feathers i ruffle)

PS, where did this "Saltwater Advisor" come from? lol


----------



## jones57742

s13 said:


> What if Mary just wasn't faithful and it was a coverup? =O (see which feathers i ruffle)


s1: 

No feathers ruffled at all here! 

You sure that you have read the posts in this thread or did you just read a couple and jump in? 

I am not trying to be nasty but just curious as many previous posts have been very enlightening*.

IMHO the virgin birth has been way too hyped up by dogma from the folks in Rome.

Whether you believe or do not believe in the concept of the virgin birth (I happen to) is inconsequential with respect to the definition of a Christian.

TR

*Ranging *from* significant quotations of Scripture in order to support postulates *to* the concepts relevant to the creation of life via non equilibrium thermodynamic processes.


----------



## s13

Oh, I just read a couple. I don't necessarily believe that it was a cover up, I was just saying to see if I could get a rise out of you guys lol. No offense taken dude!


----------



## Pareeeee

The Bible does tell us that Christ was born of a virgin. 

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 

Luke 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.


- I do not doubt it - if I doubted it I would be doubting God. I do not believe that the God that created the Universe couldn't make a virgin bear child.


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## Knight~Ryder

Oh jonesey my friend, I believe with all my heart. I just love how I opened up the bible and it fell to that portion of scripture and I read. That was after I was experiencing a oneness with God throughout the day.

I think some people forget that they can have a personal relationship with God, but that's too big for religion. Let's keep it theological right?


----------



## Kurtfr0

I'm Probably going to be FLAMED for saying what I think it real and not, So I wont look back! maybe..

Im more of a scientific believerrr, but its kind of weird how everything works in sync as if everything knows everythings plan and fits into it. I think theres something bigger.. Just not God. I've yet to see any proof and I mean REAL PROOF not stories.. 

God Could be real.

Or God could have been a folk tail to help the people in need and it spread.

but who knows.


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## jones57742

Mods and Admins:

I am old and believed that I responded to KR.

Did someone delete this post or did I cancel it before I saved it?

Your response would be appreciated!

TR


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## SueM

Nothing was deleted by us Ron. Has to be those dang PC gremlins again.


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## SueM

I must say I am very proud of all of you. I've been on many forums since forums started, and I have never seen one on religion go 195 posts, without going seriously wrong. 
Thank you for keeping it civil, and agreeing to disagree.


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## Dragonbeards

SueM said:


> I must say I am very proud of all of you. I've been on many forums since forums started, and I have never seen one on religion go 195 posts, without going seriously wrong.
> Thank you for keeping it civil, and agreeing to disagree.


I've just been reading this, and I am surprised. The people here are a lot more calm then at another forum I used to go to. Everybody started being rude to each other, and before long, their was a mass banning of people. All because of a thread on religion. I say this is cool.


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## mrmoby

Kurtfr0 said:


> I'm Probably going to be FLAMED for saying what I think it real and not, So I wont look back! maybe..
> 
> Im more of a scientific believerrr, but its kind of weird how everything works in sync as if everything knows everythings plan and fits into it. I think theres something bigger.. Just not God. I've yet to see any proof and I mean REAL PROOF not stories..
> 
> God Could be real.
> 
> Or God could have been a folk tail to help the people in need and it spread.
> 
> but who knows.


That's the point. People can believe whatever they wish. However, you cannot prove the existance of God using a book that in and of itself is subject to specualtion and the hands of man. You can BELIEVE it is the absolute truth, but that is all you can do, BELIEVE. There is no means of proving that it is true. Trying to prove the bible, and the existance of God by quoting scripture is flawed logic.

It is also true that folks, like people in primitive cultures still do, needed a means of explaining their world. It can be psychologically satisfying. This theory can also not be proven or disproven.


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## Kurtfr0

mrmoby put my thoughts in a well worded paragraph.


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## Knight~Ryder

Dragonbeards said:


> I've just been reading this, and I am surprised. The people here are a lot more calm then at another forum I used to go to. Everybody started being rude to each other, and before long, their was a mass banning of people. All because of a thread on religion. I say this is cool.


I know I myself am not a dictator. So when I see comments and things that go against what I believe or dare I say "know" to be real, I don't bash back. There is no point. Also, there is no point in making fun of each other for this.

I believe I have a responsibility to settle things down if it ever got out of hand. So, when someone starts to come on a little strong with the hate, I use other tactics to reroute that hate 

Thanks Sue, for noticing and replying.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> Mods and Admins:
> 
> I am old and believed that I responded to KR.


I wouldn't mind at all if you rewrote what you said ;-)

Remember, it had to do with this.

I think some people forget that they can have a personal relationship with God, but that's too big for religion. Let's keep it theological right?


----------



## Knight~Ryder

I came across a question the other day in my travels. 

*QUESTION: *

-I am really struggling with the idea of love. I always say I love God, but I'm realizing that I don't really know what love is. How can I experience God's love more fully and give that to others? I'm also struggling with finding the balance between loving others before God. I don't think I put those relationships before God but how do I know? I think that I would give up every relationship up for God, but is that what he's calling me to do? I'm just filled with self-doubt and feel like I'm never going to understand.

*ANSWER:*

I am privileged to address your sweet question.

One of the big obstacles to us is our emotional concepts of God. We run
to God with our mind, but with our emotions we only want to bolt and flee.
It makes sense when we hear Billy Graham so we make a decision while our
mind is flooded with truth, but the next day we regret it because our
emotions start to impact our perceptions. This is all very common.

We have needs that only God can meet. These are spiritual needs that are
only met in Him: security, commitment, love, stability, intimacy, safety,
acceptance. We know that nobody but God can meet those needs, but at the
same time we are not emotionally comfortable to trust God to meet them.

If I said I have a surprise for you, God is right outside on your front
porch and He is going to spend 15 minutes with you one on one. Here is
what you need to know about Him before you go outside: He is going to be
distant, and unreliable, He'll give you the silent treatment and ignore
your questions, He will force you to fail at doing the impossible, and
wants to change everything about you, and will judge and expose you, He'll
make your life miserable so that you just want it to end, He won't be
happy with you unless you are perfect, He won't help, and He might kill
someone you love just to make a point.

Now, aren't you excited to go out and meet with Him? (smile.) How excited would anybody be after that description?

That wouldn't make you want to be with this kind of God, and I would not
blame you. But, if we leave the emotional concept of God behind and
concentrate on the rational facts that are revealed about God ... none of
those things really describe God. So who do they describe? Satan? The
flesh? Actually, in almost every case these emotional concepts about God
describe one or both parents. It is your dad. It is your mom, or whoever
you recognized as a child as your "authority."

If you had a critical dad, you only read what you are "NOT DOING" when you
read the Bible. If your parents always lost their temper, then you are
emotionally waiting for the big blow-up and angry outburst from God. If
your father showed partiality, then in your calamity you feel that God
might help Jimmy or Jane, but He won't help you. If you had a passive
father, because he was busy or died, or maybe he was preoccupied or
indifferent, then you can't imagine how any of God's promises will ever
actually happen.. God's promises are as empty as dad's, right? All of this
makes it a struggle to look to God to be filled, so we end up looking to
others, or in your case we try to change ourselves to be lovely and bring
out the best in the reluctant heavenly Father.

Here is what I really think about God:
God never gives up.
God cares more for others than for self.
God doesn't want others to fail in order to highlight His success. God
doesn't strut, God doesn't have a swelled head, God doesn't force himself
on others, Isn't always "me first, He never flies off the handle, God
won't keep score of the sins, Doesn't revel when others grovel, God takes
pleasure in the flowering of truth, God puts up with anything, God always
is trustworthy He always looks for the best, God never looks back, But
keeps going to the end without failing or giving up.

I know this because Paul said:
Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
Love never fails.(1 Cor. 13)

And GOD IS LOVE!!!!

If we wait for our emotions to catch up with reality, how long will we
wait?

The reality is plain, and the fantasy that our emotions have is scary and
uncertain. We have to let intellect rule reason and judge our thoughts if
they be true, or emotionally derived from fictional emotional concepts.

Here is what I know about you already, (these are true things to meditate
on in order to renew your mind and ward off very real emotional concepts t
hat impact you and make you want to flee from God.) First of all you are
a believer, and redeemed. That is settled. Only believers are tempted to
worry that aren't doing what God wants from them. Never have I ever met any unbeliever that
said, "Oh dear, how do I know if I put someone else before God in my life." That kind of trick only works on the redeemed, because only the
redeemed give a care about such things. Unregenerate people
don't care if God rejects them or not, and wouldn't be worried about that,
so you are definitely born-again and you have no choice but to finish out
the rest of your destiny as God's child. It is settled.


Trust your heart when it contradicts your
soul. Always trust your heart, for God works in you to "will" and to do
according to His good pleasure. Do as you want to do. Act like you want
to feel. Act like you want to think. I know someone who could not love
her son-in-law, though she wanted to. So the Spirit only told her to act
like she wanted to feel. So, wanting to love her son-in-law, but not
really feeling any love, she began to hug him every time she saw him drunk
and stumbling in the street of their small town. "I love you, "she said,
" and there is nothing that you can do to make me stop loving you." That
is the hardest thing for her to do, but it was admitting what she really
wanted. After years of doing that, she broke down and wept, because
finally after years of acting like she loved him ... she finally had her
emotions in agreement. "I love him, Lord" she confessed, "and there is
nothing that he could ever do to stop me." She acted like she "WANTED" to
"FEEL." And her feelings were finally (after many years) made to agree
with the reality that was in her heart.

You want to have an intimate relationship, when you know that you are
loved by Him. So start acting like you want to feel. Speak the language
of faith, by saying "Thanks." "Thank you, Lord that you love me, even at
times when I have no awareness of it, beyond what you demonstrated on the
cross." make "Thanks" your prayer, for everything. If you need something,
then ask for it, but once you ask for it, if you ask again then you are
speaking unbelief. Giving it to Him is all that is needed, and He has it
the first time. There is nothing more that anyone, ever, in the history
of all time can do that is more the putting it in His hands and be
thankful that He has it. There is nothing that you can add to that. It
is His. He will provide, in His timing. If you have asked Him feel
nearer to you, then next time thank Him, instead of asking again. "Lord,
Thank you that my feelings are in your hands. I've asked you to make me
feel your presence and feel what is true about your life in me, and even
though I can't feel it now ... I know that I have given it to you and
don't need to take that responsibility back. Thank you that you will take
care of my feelings." ... Cease asking or working for what you have
already addressed, and start being thankful. You cannot express thanks
too much, but every time you do, your faith will be exercised and
strengthened.

*Lastly, don't be too hard on yourself. We are all under construction, and
if perfection in everything you do and feel and think were required, God
could do that by letting your body die, and translating your soul into
perfection right now. However, what God really wants, instead of your
definition of perfection is the perfection of what you already are. It is
OK, to have a confused mind, and emotions that go astray, and a complete
lack of will-power. There are lessons to be learned in failure that
cannot be learned any other way. How can you know that God loves you in
spite of poor behavior, if you behave perfectly? How can you know that
God lives in you when you don't "feel" Him, unless you go through a time
when you can't feel Him? All the desserts that you walk through will help
you appreciate the oasis. Every reversal of what is promised will make
the fulfillment of what is promised that much sweeter in the fullness of
time. We all go through that, and it is important that we do have times
when we believe even though we receive nothing during that time. If we
didn't have a need for those dry spells then nobody would have them.*


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> I just love how I opened up the bible and it fell to that portion of scripture and I read.


KR: what portion?




mrmoby said:


> There is no means of *proving* that it is true


Kurt and mm:

Please note that there is no means of *disproving* the existence of a Deity.

To my knowledge life has not been created in a test tube but I *believe* that this will ultimately occur as we come to better understand the processes in nonequalibrium thermo dynamics.

Having said that I also *believe* that this occurrence would not affect my belief in a Deity.




Knight~Ryder said:


> I think some people forget that they can have a personal relationship with God, but that's too big for religion. Let's keep it theological right?


KR: my original post was more detailed but the Reader's Digest version is

*No! as*

this topic is styled *Proof that God is Real*; and religion or spirituality is only a portion of the discussion, IMHO.




Knight~Ryder said:


> I am really struggling with the idea of love......


KR: ........ Whew and I thought that some of my posts were long winded!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

KR: you are treading a path similar to the one which I observe when I turn around and a substantial portion of that path is sufficient introspection.

A Greystonism around San Angelo is that the smartest feller in the world is the one who knows himself!

I have contemplated the definition of the "L word" many times and IMHO it very simplistic (as in physics):

When the object of the "L word" ceases to exist bawling and squalling is evident for many months but grieving continues until death.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> KR: what portion?


I posted it on the page earlier, just scroll a tad and you'll find it.



jones57742 said:


> When the object of the "L word" ceases to exist bawling and squalling is evident for many months but grieving continues until death.TR


Are you saying love ceases to exist when a person dies?


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> I posted it on the page earlier, just scroll a tad and you'll find it.


KR: I am old and cannot find.

Could you please quote?




Knight~Ryder said:


> Are you saying love ceases to exist when a person dies?


KR: *Absolutely Not!*

We are really talking past each other again here.

What I am saying is that definition of the "L word" is that when one of the objects of my "L word" no longer exists *then I will experience **bawling and squalling for many months although the grief will continue until my death.*

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Knight~Ryder said:


> Jones I wanted to ask you something. Question will be after all I write here.
> 
> Okay, I just came across a portion of scripture that I never did really see until now. It stuck out big time tonight as I was reading.
> 
> This was after Jesus was ressurected, and I find it so uplifting, amazing, and wonderful that no where in this world can you find something like this except when we are experiencing oneness with God.
> 
> Here is the scripture.
> 
> John 20 11-25
> 11Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "*Come and have breakfast*." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 13Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.
> Jesus Reinstates Peter
> 15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, *"Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"*
> "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
> Jesus said, *"Feed my lambs."*
> 
> 16Again Jesus said, *"Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"*
> He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
> Jesus said, *"Take care of my sheep."*
> 
> 17 The third time he said to him, *"Simon son of John, do you love me?"*
> Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, *"Do you love me?"* He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."
> 
> Jesus said,  *"Feed my sheep.* 18 *I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." * 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, *"Follow me!"*
> 
> 20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"
> 
> 22Jesus answered, *"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."* 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, *"If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"*
> 
> 24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
> 
> *25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.*
> 
> Have you ever read this and if so, what is your take on this. I find it to be the most beautiful passages of scripture ever.


----------



## shev

Double post, my bad. Dunno how to delete it.


----------



## shev

Since I'm pretty far behind, I'll just pick snippets of what's been said.

I'd say love stops at death, at least on one side of the equation.

Just like anything else you "feel", it's all determined by chemical balances in the brain, even love. When you have sex, or a mother sees her child for the first time, the same "love hormones" are released, which promote bonding. Emotions are relatively easily manipulated chemically.



> I've been reading this thread for a while... it seems to have turned a bit nasty over the past day or so.
> 
> I'm not one to engage in religious debate. However I will reference back to the circle graphic posted here earlier. You can take it two ways: if you're a cynic, you can use it as an argument against the whole religulous deal. If you're a believer, it can make sense. The difference? I think that is what would be called "faith."


I hope it wasn't my picture that sparked the rudeness from another member. I just saw it as a relevant and satirical point about the logic, not trying to be offensive. The thing is, although you're right about it being up to faith, the title of the thread is "proof God is real", not "I have faith in God being real".



Knight~Ryder said:


> Recently someone asked me this question, so I'll post it here. You are very right jones when you say this is what makes "christianity" very different from any other religion in this world.
> 
> Question: *"Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ true?"*
> 
> Answer: Scripture presents conclusive evidence that Jesus Christ was in fact resurrected from the dead. Christ’s resurrection is recorded in Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; and John 20:1-21:25. The resurrected Christ also appeared in the Book of Acts (Acts 1:1-11). From these passages you can gain several "proofs" of Christ’s resurrection. First, look at the dramatic change in the disciples. They went from scared and hiding in a room, to courageous and sharing the Gospel throughout the world. What else could explain this dramatic change other than the risen Christ appearing to them?


I don't understand how this makes Christianity any different. Are you saying other religions don't have scriptures supporting their religion? Or just that other religions don't have _this_ scripture (the bible) supporting their beliefs?

I'll have to direct you to another powerful scripture,
"We looked! Then we saw him
Step in on the mat!
We looked! And we saw him!
The Cat in the Hat!"

Can't disprove this proof He exists.


----------



## MaelStrom

Knight said:


> Recently someone asked me this question, so I'll post it here. You are very right jones when you say this is what makes "christianity" very different from any other religion in this world.
> 
> Question: "Is the resurrection of Jesus Christ true?"
> 
> Answer: Scripture presents conclusive evidence that Jesus Christ was in fact resurrected from the dead. Christ’s resurrection is recorded in Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; and John 20:1-21:25. The resurrected Christ also appeared in the Book of Acts (Acts 1:1-11). From these passages you can gain several "proofs" of Christ’s resurrection. First, look at the dramatic change in the disciples. They went from scared and hiding in a room, to courageous and sharing the Gospel throughout the world. What else could explain this dramatic change other than the risen Christ appearing to them?


How can you prove that the Bible is truth? Meaning, is there evidence that it is not a work of fiction? 

For example, take Greek mythology. In Greek mythology, it was believed that Helios, upon his chariot, drew the sun across the sky, creating night and day. There are many stories and texts that include this, just as the Bible speaks of Jesus and in your question, his ressurection, yet I would be hard pressed to find a person who truly believes that this occurs, and I feel that you would agree that no Greek deity draws the sun across the sky each day. Thus, is this no different than the Bible? Just because literature states it is such, does that automatically it is automatically truth? How can one be certain that the reaction of the disciples,and the other references to the Bible you quoted, which as you stated asserts the ressurection of Jesus, could not have been a dramatic theme, an added detail.

My argument might be a little unclear in meaning, I only read a few posts and jumped in, and I dont have a vast knowledge about christian history, values, cencepts, ect. but that is part of my train of thought. To me, the Bible is no more truth than the scriptures written by the Greeks about their deities.


----------



## jones57742

KR: I appreciate the resurrection (no pun intended) and the highlighting.



Knight~Ryder said:


> Have you ever read this and if so, what is your take on this.


Yes: I have read them many times but I am going to pull a KR here by quoting Scriptures which are "latched onto":

Hezekiah* 3:2: “God helps those who help themselves.”

and

Sola fide: which in my brain means by faith and faith alone I believe in the existence of a Deity (forget the precepts set forth by Martin Luther).




shev said:


> I hope it wasn't my picture that sparked the rudeness from another member.


sh: In my brain we are all just exchanging concepts here and if someone gets PO'ed that is their problem and not ours!




shev said:


> From KR: "You are very right jones when you say this is what makes "christianity" very different from any other religion in this world."
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand how this makes Christianity any different.
Click to expand...

KR: you are finally getting the "hang of it here"!


sh:

I can envision a virgin birth based upon our current knowledge of nature.

I cannot envision a dead feller being reanimated three days subsequent to death: can you?




MaelStrom said:


> How can you prove that the Bible is truth?


MS:

One cannot but please refer to my previous comments in this post which are responses to KR's post.

TR


----------



## emc7

MaelStrom is right that citing the bible for proof of anything is only as good as your faith in that document. Any research paper requires at least two sources. An early Christians put all there eggs in one basket by designating only one set of holy scriptures.

Eyewitness accounts are notoriously unreliable and the multiple transcriptions/translations seem likely to have garbled those accounts. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls does show that the document isn't as messed up simply by time as I'd expect. Some of the geography in the bible fits right into the modern landscape. The old testament seems to be an accurate transcription of an earlier oral tradition. But one person's Truth is another's mythology, no matter how much detail it is described in. The Mormon founder's description of translating scripture off of "golden plates" hidden in a hat are pretty detailed. If L. Ron Hubbard can invent a religion (Scientology), why couldn't it have happened before? A group of people conspiring (all at once or over the ages) to invent a new mythology and the stories to support it. I believe we should all read the bible, both as a historical document and as literature. I also believe we should all read Darwin. Darwin's theories are testable. Most of the bible's assertions are not. How could you prove a virgin birth or a resurrection took place 2k years ago. Even if you dig up the AD 0 tabloid, and it tells you so, would you believe it? Remember crop circles and the Lock Ness monster? Both were admitted hoaxes decades after the original reports, and people still believe in both. Just because an account is old, doesn't make it true. And just because people believe, doesn't make it true. We used to have millions of people believing in a flat earth with the sun going around it. There were plenty of charlatans 2000 years ago. 

I won't say its not true, but I don't think any of this is really provable one way or the other.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

I don't have time to read all the posts as I need to go pick my wife up. I'll just give a quick reply to one statement I saw. I'll look into further when I get home.

*In history there is little that is certain but there is also a level of scepticism that makes the task of the historian impossible. Furthermore, the thesis that Jesus never existed requires selective scepticism about which sources are reliable and how others are interpreted. In the end, if Jesus did not exist, it makes Christianity a much more incredible phenomena than if he did.*


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Without further ado, here is my reply. Be ready for a long one. I know those of you who are truly interested will read this.

The thesis that Jesus never existed has hovered around the fringes of research into the New Testament for centuries but never been able to become an accepted theory. This is for good reason, as it is simply a bad hypothesis based on arguments from silence, special pleading and an awful lot of wishful thinking. It is ironic that atheists will buy into this idea and leave all their pretensions of critical thinking behind. I will adapt what has become popular usage and call people who deny Jesus' existence 'Jesus Mythologists'.

Not all Jesus Mythologists are lunatics and one at least, Earl Doherty, is extremely erudite and worth reading. Nevertheless, he is still wrong and, as I have seen myself, he reacts badly to those who demonstrate it. It is not my intention to study the minutiae of the argument but instead focus on three central points which are often brought up on discussion boards. These are the lack of secular references, the alleged similarities to paganism and the silence of Paul. Finally I want to bring all these together to show how ideas similar to those that deny Jesus' existence can be used on practically any ancient historical figure. With this in mind I set out to prove that Hannibal never existed.

*Roman Historians*

Occasionally people ask why there is no record of Jesus in Roman records. The answer is that there are no surviving Roman records but only highly parochial Roman historians who had little interest in the comings and goings of minor cults and were far more concerned about Emperors and Kings. Jesus made a very small splash while he was alive and there was no reason for Roman historians to notice him. 

Once Christianity was established as a major cult in the Empire then Jesus became rather more interesting and he is mentioned by Tacitus in the early second century. However, Jesus Mythologists counter this by claiming that he could have got his information from Christians which means his evidence is not independent. So, we have a very convenient situation for the Jesus Mythologists. Until Christianity had spread no one except Christians would be interested in Jesus but all later records are ruled out of court as they are tainted by association with Christianity. This sort of special pleading is one of the reasons that modern historians have no time for these theories as they are set up to be impossible to disprove. In fact, Christian evidence for a human Jesus who was crucified is trustworthy because it ran counter to the myths of the time and suggested that he had suffered a humiliating death. If they made it up and then suppressed the truth with clinical efficiency, why did they come up with a story which even the Christian apologist, Tertullian, admitted was absurd? It seems far more likely that they had a large number of historical facts that they had to rationalise into a religion rather than creating all these difficulties for themselves.

Sometimes Jesus Mythologists will produce long lists of writers none of whom have the slightest reason to mention an obscure Jewish miracle worker and somehow think this strengthens their point. In fact, it has all the relevance of picking fifty books off your local library shelf and finding that none of them mention Carl Sagan. Does that mean he did not exist either? Jesus was not even a failed military leader of the kind that Romans might have noticed - especially if he had been defeated by someone famous.

*The Non - Silence of Paul*

The whole idea that Jesus did not exist started with the fact that Paul does not say very much about his life or ministry. It is instructive to first find out what he did say so here is a list. You can read the relevent snippet biblical text by holding your mouse over the red scripture references.

Jesus was born in human fashion, as a Jew, and had a ministry to the Jews. (Galations 4:4) 
Jesus was referred to as "Son of God". (1 Cor. 1:9) 
Jesus was a direct descendent of King David. (Romans 1:3) 
Jesus prayed to God using the term "abba". (Galations 4:6) 
Jesus expressly forbid divorce. (1 Cor. 7:10) 
Jesus taught that "preachers" should be paid for their preaching. (1 Cor. 9:14) 
Jesus taught about the end-time. (1 Thess. 4:15) 
Paul refers to Peter by the name Cephas (rock), which was the name Jesus gave to him. (1 Cor. 3:22) 
Jesus had a brother named James. (Galations 1:19) 
Jesus initiated the Lord's supper and referred to the bread and the cup. (1 Cor. 11:23-25) 
Jesus was betrayed on the night of the Lord's Supper. (1 Cor. 11:23-25) 
Jesus' death was related to the Passover Celebration. (1 Cor. 5:7) 
The death of Jesus was at the hands of earthly rulers. (1 Cor. 2:8) 
Jesus underwent abuse and humiliation. (Romans 15:3) 
Jewish authorities were involved with Jesus' death. (1 Thess. 2:14-16) 
Jesus died by crucifixion. (2 Cor. 13:4 et al) 
Jesus was physically buried. (1 Cor. 15:4) 

It turns out that careful analysis of the letters shows that Paul was not actually all that silent at all. The first reaction to all this from the Jesus Mythologist is to dispute that Paul wrote very many of these letters. But actually seven of his letters are completely undisputed and all facts about Jesus's life shown above are from these. It is ironic that the pastoral epistles of 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus, that liberals insist are late (and date from after the synoptic Gospels), contain practically no details about the life of Jesus at all.

As there are still rather a lot of details about the historical Jesus in the undisputed letters, the Jesus Mythologist will use special pleading to try and explain them away. But as we can see, Paul is not attempting to tell Jesus's life story, he is just using the odd snippet about Jesus where it is helpful to illustrate his point. He knows that his readers are aware of what happened because all of his letters are to people who are already Christians. He is not trying to convert them and he is not engaged in apologetics.

If we look at the letters of the early Christian fathers, they rarely have details about the life of Jesus except in passing because they know their readers are familiar with the Gospels. What we today call the Gospels had not, of course, been written down at the time that Paul was preaching but oral communication was considered to be more reliable than the written word at the time. When these people had heard about Jesus they did not need a revision primer when Paul wrote to them but specific advice about problems and controversies. Of course, none of this will convince the Jesus Mythologist who just cannot understand why Paul does not just repeat verbatim to his correspondents what he has already told them in person.

*Conclusion:*

In history there is little that is certain but there is also a level of scepticism that makes the task of the historian impossible. Furthermore, the thesis that Jesus never existed requires selective scepticism about which sources are reliable and how others are interpreted. In the end, if Jesus did not exist, it makes Christianity a much more incredible phenomena than if he did.


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## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Without further ado, here is my reply. Be ready for a long one.


Wheeeeu!!! you were just not a woofing!!!!

But once again it is "by faith and faith alone".

With respect to the archival of information topics for historical documentation focused upon the Romans (or the early Christians for that matter) can anyone on the Forum state for certain the fabrications utilized to shade the "sunny side of the Coliseum"?

Having said that what would be the import of documenting the life of or even the existence of a heretic down in Jerusalem who generated a small cult and who was subsequently crucified?

Please also note the battle for (siege by the Romans of) Jerusalem which occurred in the first century was one of the few recorded battles "to the last man" and the Romans were not real happy campers with the Jews anyway.

TR


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## emc7

I hadn't heard the "didn't exist" theory of Jesus before. I don't have any trouble with the fact that the Romans missed him. He probably didn't pay a lot of taxes considering that poverty is a virtue. The whole, "its easier for a camel to go through the eye of needle than for a rich man to get into heaven" thing. 

I had read the theory that the virgin birth was bunk invented by the "patriarchal hierarchies" to support the subjugation of women. If the only good woman is a virgin, then there was only ever one good mother. All other women are weak, sex-crazed, animals/daughters of the first sinner Eve that need to be ruled by men for their own good. This is disturbingly like the arguments the wahabbis use to keep women covered in cloth and the British used as to why they should rule the world and enslave people. Even if you accept one virgin birth, the veneration of Mary mainly for her virginity seems kind of excessive considering she got married and likely had other children in the usual way. 

It seems plausible to me that a real person lived, preached and died and the stories about virgin birth and resurrection were invented after the fact by a young church desperately trying to convert the masses. I think this is what the Jews believe. They are still waiting for their Savior. While I doubt most of church teachings, I find I do believe that Jesus taught. The new testament is so different from the old. Commandments to Love, rather than what not to do, Poverty being good (give all your stuff to the needy), being kind to your enemies. All of this is such a radical departure from "follow the rules, give to the church and prosper" of all prior religions that it rings of Truth. In my mind, it doesn't matter whether the one who gave us these thoughts was divine himself or not. The words are a gift to be treasured, lived by and shared. Even if there is no God, no heaven, if we care for each other as Jesus told us to, the world would be a better place. People like Mother Theresa who live their lives in service to others inspire me to believe, as do glorious music and soaring architecture that were created by believers to inspire others.

Richly dressed men judging people do not inspire faith in me. It seems a tragedy that the church that Peter founded would end up selling indulgences and having Bishops with mistresses and county houses. The faith that began so radically became like every other faith, "follow the rules, give to the church and prosper". I distrust any human in a position of authority. I am a firm believer in "power corrupts" and we give no greater power to any man than to our religious leaders. 

How early are the mentions of crusafixes in non-Christian writings? It must have been disturbing to see believers wearing the mini electric chairs of the day. Did anyone write about the trend or did that come much later after the threat of persecution was reduced.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> Even if you accept one virgin birth, the veneration of Mary mainly for her virginity seems kind of excessive considering she got married and likely had other children in the usual way.


em: I very much enjoyed the picture show "Dogma"!!: hope that you have seen it.




emc7 said:


> Richly dressed men judging people do not inspire faith in me. It seems a tragedy that the church *that Peter founded *would end up selling indulgences and having Bishops with mistresses and county houses.


em: :lol: :lol: :lol: !!!

And you did not even mention the Inquisition or the impoverishment of the millions of folks while these deeds are ongoing and the $M's expended associated with lavish rituals in Rome.

I am not aware of *historical documentation* of this assertion but only of dogma which claims this assertion to be true.

TR


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## emc7

True, no proof, just words in the Bible and a documentary on some high-numbered channel that purported to show an ancient tomb beneath St. Peter's basilica.


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## emc7

Now I am going way off topic. But I think separation of Church and State is good for the Church as well as the State. "Men of God" in America are more likely to be honest believers and less likely to be corrupt, power-hungry egotists than "men of God" in past and present regimes where the Church had a more direct role in policy-making and wealth-distributing. More of our corrupt, power-hungry egotists are in Washington and on Wall Street.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> Now I am going way off topic. But I think separation of Church and State is good for the Church as well as the State.


em: I absolutely agree!!!




emc7 said:


> "Men of God" in America are more likely to be honest believers and less likely to be corrupt, power-hungry egotists than "men of God" in past and present regimes where the Church had a more direct role in policy-making and wealth-distributing.


I agree but the devil is in the definition.

I could inappropriately cite two commonly accepted examples of the abject immorality of these so called "Men of God" which are/were very high profile as well as many personal examples.

This is just me but whenever anyone invokes the precepts associated with a Deity in order to justify support for a Civil cause I cringe!

TR


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## Knight~Ryder

emc7 said:


> *The new testament is so different from the old. Commandments to Love, rather than what not to do, Poverty being good (give all your stuff to the needy), being kind to your enemies.* All of this is such a radical departure from "follow the rules, give to the church and prosper" of all prior religions that it rings of Truth. In my mind, it doesn't matter whether the one who gave us these thoughts was divine himself or not. *The words are a gift to be treasured, lived by and shared.* Even if there is no God, no heaven, *if we care for each other as Jesus told us to, the world would be a better place*. People like Mother Theresa who live their lives in service to others inspire me to believe, as do glorious music and soaring architecture that were created by believers to inspire others.
> 
> Richly dressed men judging people do not inspire faith in me. It seems a tragedy that the church that Peter founded would end up selling indulgences and having Bishops with mistresses and county houses.


Emc, I am glad you touched on a certain point.

Before Paul became a Christian he had a lot to boast about concerning worldly success and privilege. 

*Consider the following passage:* 

If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. (Philippians 3:4-6) 

Each of us are in pursuit of something. Many are in pursuit of wealth. Some chase after fame. Others want to gain power and influence. Most of us wish to achieve something during the course of our lives. We dedicate ourselves to our careers in the hope of providing for our families. Some work to better themselves and the lot of man in general. Many people work very hard so their children can be successful and can have a better life than they did themselves. 

Paul was just like everyone else and passionately chased after the things which were important to him. Each society has things which are thought of as desirable to pursue. Before Paul met Jesus, he held a position of great status and honor among his people. He was accomplished in the things which were considered the most important by him and most others.

Firstly, he was born a part of the nation of Israel, the people of God. According to the Law, he was circumcised at the appropriate time. His family tree was pure and uncorrupted. He was a Pharisee, a group of people zealous for God's Laws. He was the son of a Pharisee and had the best teachers. His boast was that he kept the letter of the law perfectly. He, so he felt, stood righteous before God because of his works. He seemed flawless and followed his passions to the point of beating those who went against the Jewish way of life. 

Paul worked hard to achieve and was greatly successful. But then he met Jesus Christ and everything changed. After some time he realized that the things which he had were of little value to him compared with being a disciple of Christ. 

*But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ-the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining towards what is ahead, I press on towards the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenwards in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained. (Philippians 3:7-16) *

'No where else does Paul make it so clear, and with such feeling how vitally important the person of Christ is to him.' 

*(1)* Everything that he valued was voluntarily and joyfully written off as a loss because of his desire to be like Jesus Christ. The things he at one time invested all his energy in, and had much success at, now pale in comparison to pursuing a relationship with his Lord. He says that he considers them 'rubbish'. The Greek word translated rubbish means dung, excrement, manure or refuse. It was also used in the writings of Strabo, a Greek geographer, to describe the filth which washed out onto the streets when it rained in a particular city. The streets, you see, had no drainage system so the sewage gathered there. 

*(2)* You can imagine the stench that it generated when it got hot! Read the passage above several times. This creates a strong mental image and reveals the passion Paul has in his faith. I pray that I may have this same dedication to following Jesus Christ.


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## mrmoby

Knight Ryder, the premise of this thread was proof God is real. The video, nor the quoting of scripture have proven anything. The point is, you can believe whatever you wish, but you are attempting to prove something that cannot be proven.

Perhaps this counterpoint would clarify what I am saying...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Dw8qeOkGg&feature=related


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## MaelStrom

emc7 said:


> Commandments to Love, rather than what not to do, Poverty being good (give all your stuff to the needy), being kind to your enemies. All of this is such a radical departure from "follow the rules, give to the church and prosper" of all prior religions that it rings of Truth. In my mind, it doesn't matter whether the one who gave us these thoughts was divine himself or not. The words are a gift to be treasured, lived by and shared. Even if there is no God, no heaven, if we care for each other as Jesus told us to, the world would be a better place. People like Mother Theresa who live their lives in service to others inspire me to believe, as do glorious music and soaring architecture that were created by believers to inspire others.


Very well said, and completely agreed.


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## smark

mrmoby said:


> Knight Ryder, the premise of this thread was proof God is real. The video, nor the quoting of scripture have proven anything. The point is, you can believe whatever you wish, but you are attempting to prove something that cannot be proven.
> 
> Perhaps this counterpoint would clarify what I am saying...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Dw8qeOkGg&feature=related


I agree. I believe in god and Jesus because it is what I choose. It is what I grew up with.
As far as there being no absolute proof of existence, I believe that is true. 
It is something that was never put there for me to have all knowledge of, ever. 
That’s why there is no end to this debate as far as proof goes. Proving this theory is as certain as proving infinite time. 
One can always assume how things really happened thru books. 
Assuming is not absolute knowing.
Believing in, is simply believing in. 
Believing is not always knowing.
Not knowing is not proving.
There is no way to prove any of this. Unless you want to assume all scriptures are all accurate. But that’s assuming.
One man writing a book does not make it fact. One million men writing a book would not make it fact either.
The only fact made is that a book was written.
My belief is simply belief not fact so there fore I can not prove any thing.
I can only believe. Not prove.
Perception is reality to the individual.


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## Knight~Ryder

mrmoby said:


> Knight Ryder, the premise of this thread was proof God is real. The video, nor the quoting of scripture have proven anything. The point is, you can believe whatever you wish, but you are attempting to prove something that cannot be proven


I understand what you are saying, and for logics sake as well. Maybe one day "logically" we all will know hmmm? But I don't think that will happen.

I have been really pondering some things. If faith is the *substance* of things not seen, then as scientists go along they may stumble across something they never knew before

Right now scientists use the term "energy" to describe certain things. While it is true that there is energy in and all around us, where does that energy come from.

Anyhow I could say many things but my main point in this post is faith being the *substance* 

Hebrew 11: 1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith is not a solid object that we can reach out and touch. It is not even a earthly concept. It is more a state of mind. It is our point of view. Faith is developed and refined. It is like the fermentation of a yeast when you make bread. It rises to gigantic proportions supernaturally. That is faith. We don’t quite know how the bread rose… all we know is that it did.

So it is with prayer, when we engage in prayer, it is faith in action. An action step and we wait for the evidence of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. We take the action of prayer, because we believe that this unseen action step (prayer) will be heard by God, through Jesus Christ. That is a powerful leap of faith. We have no guarantees, No man or woman gave us a certificate and said that it would happen. Yet we believed strongly enough that we focused on Jesus Christ and the Cross in prayer and presented our request to God and we believed that the evidence of the act would come to pass.

We never know when it would happen. We don’t know how it would happen, We don’t know under what circumstances that it will happen. We don’t know where it will happen. But we take God’s word that it will happen whenever we exercise our faith through prayer. That is what true faith is, and after all God only has one will, not 3,400 little ones that we create and want for ourselves.

I guess until this faith can be proven as a substance, we will continue to have this debate.....


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## Knight~Ryder

I hope there are some serious replies to this post. This is some serious writing. 

*Can You Prove God Is Real?*

According to a recent national poll, 93% of all Americans believe that there is a personal God or a Spirit of power. However, nobody has ever seen God with their eyes, and most people agree that God's existence cannot be proven by logical arguments. As many confirmed atheists say, if God's existence cannot be proved, why should anyone believe that He exists?

The ones who believe in the existence of God, especially Christians, have written many long books, short articles, and everything else in between trying to prove God's existence to the doubters. They have used examples from nature; they have constructed logical arguments using scientific facts and theories and philosophical considerations. The nonbelievers have also written many books and articles trying to show that God does not exist. The believers remain believers; the doubters remain doubters. Usually, nothing much is gained for either side by these arguments.

_But we have found that human beings actually can prove to themselves the existence of God._

*Finding a Common Ground to Meet God*

In order to find a person, we need to find where the person is. In order to contact something, we need to know the realm in which that thing exists. Where is God? What realm is God living in? Where is man? What realm is man living in? Is there a common realm in which the two may meet?

*God Cannot be Contacted by Physical Means*

It is nearly without dispute that God, if He exists, is invisible to physical eyes. The Bible tells us that God is Spirit, living in unapproachable light. Although the heavens manifest His glory, He Himself cannot be detected with a telescope, microscope, or any other instrument. He is in another sphere and of another realm. Using our five senses to look for God is like looking for sound waves with our eyes, listening for color with our ears, or trying to touch a fragrance with our hands. It is as futile as trying to watch a television broadcast without a television set. The physical sensory organs are not the proper organs with which to contact God, for the physical realm is not the realm in which God can be found. We must contact Him on His "wavelength."
*
God Cannot be Substantiated in the Psychological Realm*

It is also impossible to substantiate God in the mental or psychological realm. His wisdom is too great for the limited mind of man to comprehend. Mankind has not fathomed the wonders of nature; we can fully grasp neither life, nor death, nor existence after death. We have not yet explored all the different forms of life on this planet, including micro-organisms and mammoth creatures of past and present. We have not yet fully explored the microcosm and macrocosm of this universe. We have not yet fully unearthed our own past history, nor can we be certain of what will happen in our future, even in such simple matters as the weather or the timing of the next earthquake. Mankind does not even understand himself, so how can we ever begin to understand the Designer and Creator of the universe, or comprehend the purpose for which all things (and we ourselves) were
made? God is too colossal, universal, and multifarious in wisdom; no matter how long we ponder, we can never imagine what He is really like and what He wants. Finite beings have a natural limitation comprehending the infinite One. It is harder for a man to understand God than it is for a worm to understand man.

*Contacting God with the Human Spirit*

Man lives in the physical and psychological realms, but God is in the spiritual realm. Therefore, man cannot physically sense or logically prove God, but we are not saying that it is impossible to contact God or to verify His existence. No! It is possible when we use the right organ. Whoever seeks Him will find Him.

As we have pointed out, God is Spirit. God desires that man contact Him; this is why He made man with three parts--body, soul, and spirit. The body is for contacting the physical world, such as sights, sounds, tangible objects, etc. The soul, with which we think, feel, and decide, is for contacting the things of the psychological world. But it is the human spirit which is created especially for contacting God the Spirit. Although we have used our physical senses and psychological abilities all our lives, most people have never used their spirit. The human spirit is similar in nature to the Spirit of God. Just as a light bulb shines when it is in contact with the generator through the transmission line, even so, when we contact God the Spirit with our human spirit, we get filled with God and God may shine through us. Once we touch God in this way, nobody can convince us that God
does not exist. At that moment, we not only know that God exists but we believe and He is real to us. This is not blind faith, but seeing faith. It is no longer a philosophical question but a firsthand experience.

*What Type of Person Are You?*

Different people have different considerations before contacting God with their human spirit for the first time. It may be that you are one who has been seeking God. If such is your case, you know that there is a God out there somewhere, but you do not know how to contact Him. All you need to do is begin talking to Him. The Bible tells us that God became a man called Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago. He lived a perfect and righteous life which qualified Him to die for our sins. Then the Lord Jesus resurrected to become a life-giving Spirit so that He could come into us. Now all you have to do is to say, "Lord Jesus, I want to contact You so that I may know that You exist. I want to have a living contact with You so that I may experience You firsthand." By talking to Him in this way, you will find Him, because He said that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him, and that he who seeks shall find.

If you are one who doubts His existence, you also can say to Him, "Lord Jesus, I do not know if You are God or if You even exist at all. If You are real, please reveal Yourself to me. I want to know You and contact You. "If He is non-existent, there will be no answer. If He is real, you will get your answer, because He will reveal Himself to you. If you are one who wants to know more about God, His purpose for man, and the relationship He wants to have with man, you can read the Bible and talk to believers to find out more. Briefly, He is a God of love and righteousness. His purpose is to have man express Him and rule for Him in a corporate way. The way He wants to accomplish His purpose is to enter into man to be man's life by first entering man's spirit, then saturating man's soul, and eventually transfiguring man's vile body of humiliation so that man may be one with
God. In this oneness of God and man, God lives in man and man lives in God, God is man's life and man is God's living, God is man's content and man is God's expression, and God is man's authority and man is God's representative. This wonderful relationship is possible when the human spirit is mingled with God the Spirit. Say to God, "Lord Jesus, use the Bible and believers to tell me more about You and reveal Yourself to me that I may know You."

If you want to prove God's existence for yourself and begin to have a relationship with Him, you can do so right now by telling Him whatever is on your heart, in your own words. If you are sincere and open with Him, He will reveal Himself to you. You will never again say that nobody can prove God's existence, because God Himself will have proven Himself to you. You will have contacted Him for yourself, just as we have. Nobody can argue with our experience and your experience.

*Bible Verses for Your Reading:*

John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness.
1 Timothy 6:16 Who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen nor can see.
Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.
Psalms 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are Your works! in wisdom have You made them all: the earth is full of Your riches.
Deuteronomy 4:29 You shall find [him], if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Zechariah 12:1 The LORD, which stretches forth the heavens, and lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame.
Ephesians 3:19 That you may be filled unto all the fullness of God.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
John 1:1 The Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh.
Matthew 1:20-21 For that which has been begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins.
Hebrews 4:15 But One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God.
1 Corinthians 15:45 The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving Spirit.
John 20:22 He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 11:6 For he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
1 John 4:16 God is love.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion...over all the earth.
2 Timothy 4:22 The Lord be with your spirit.
Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith.
Philippians 3:21 Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory.
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
John 15:4 Abide in Me and I in you.
Galatians 2:20 It is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.
1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit.


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## Knight~Ryder

I have a question for anyone who wants to answer it.

I was talking with an "atheist" today and he said "I know there is No God and that is the truth" I asked him. 

What is truth and how do you define it?

He couldn't answer me back. 

So my question for any of you is, what is truth can can you define it?


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## Sea-Agg2009

EDIT: removing this response because answering any questions on this thread is an utter waste of time...


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## emc7

The atheist knows there is no God and you know there is. I believe that you both believe and that neither of you knows. Both of you have unproven theories. I believe that God may be unknowable, unprovable and also undisprovable. Its really hard to prove that something doesn't exist. It took a really long time to disprove the existence of "the ether". You can't disprove the Loch Ness monster without surveying all of Loch Ness at the same time. We don't have the technology now to do it, but in the future we could. I think of a God as a force outside of a "closed system", this universe, that has the ability to alter things within the system. Everything within the system obey rules such as Physics. If you prove an outside intervention, you prove something exists outside the system that cares about stuff inside the system. Thats why you document "miracles". Just proving something exists outside the system doesn't matter if that something doesn't intervene. Its like the difference between extra-terrestial life at the other side of the galaxy and aliens abducting humans. Thats why "the universe exist so it had to have a creator" argument for the existence of God doesn't wash with me. If the destruction of the previous universe accidentally created ours, there is can still be no God. The thing I don't get about Christians spending time and effort into proving a theoretical creator to atheists is, why bother? Assume you succeed in that, its still a long way from proving the existence of creator to proving He is what you believe Him to be. Just knowing the universe had a "clock maker" wind it up doesn't necessarily mean he's still around and tweaking it. And would the clock maker know or care that he was being worshiped? Stop wasting your breath. Go out and do. Live a live so inspiring that others will emulate you to point of embracing your beliefs.


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## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> So my question for any of you is, what is truth can can you define it?


KR: yes and you asked for it here!

Two simplistic examples of "absolute truth":

*One* 1 + 1 = 2 in decimal and 1 + 1 = 10 in binary; and

*Two* true Or false = true but true And false = false in Boolean.

A not so simplistic example of "fuzzy truth":

The maximum speed in the Universe which has been substantially verified by observations is that of electromagnetic radiation (light is an example) in a vacuum and in a hypothetical region of the Universe where no gravitional effects exist.

IMHO the reason that the above assertion is "fuzzy" is that these observations have occurred from only one location in the Universe which is in the vicinity of the Earth.

Who knows what might be observed from a region of the universe which is ten billion light years remote from the Earth?

Perhaps a "folding of space" which would yield an infinite or near infinite maximum speed?




Sea-Agg2009 said:


> EDIT: removing this response because answering any questions on this thread is an utter waste of time...


SA: IMHO there has been no "waste of time" by me.

This thread does not contain any "flaming heat" but has been, IMHO, an exchange of concepts.




emc7 said:


> Its really hard to prove that something doesn't exist. It took a really long time to disprove the existence of *"the ether"*.


em: ROFL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Talking about cobwebs in Ron's brain it has been decades, mind you decades, since I was laughing with tears about those folks' explanation of the propagation of electromagnetic waves.




emc7 said:


> The thing I don't get about Christians spending time and effort into proving a theoretical creator to atheists is, why bother?


em: Because, IMHO, some Christians do not believe that other folks will "believe by faith and faith alone".




emc7 said:


> Stop wasting your breath.


em: KR cannot as he is doing what he has been "commanded to do" (please excuse me KR but that is a portion of what is going on here).




emc7 said:


> Go out and do. Live a live so inspiring that others will emulate you to point of embracing your beliefs.


em: you really hit the "nail on the head" here!!!    

TR


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## Osiris

Anyway,
Was impressed with quite a few posts onthis topic, versus the normal short bashing when this type of topic comes up.

I thought i would finally share my 2cents.

I Am not much of a religous person myself, I grew up with it around, i went to church every sunday, sunday school, catacism(sp?), but in the end after moving out, i made decision not to continue the belief. Believe my parents did the right thing, in the end it is the person themselves choice to believe or not.

I am doing same thing with my kids, I may not believe in everything, but need to give the children a option to, life is about choices, and what you do once you make a decision. 

Keep up the informative postings


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## Knight~Ryder

The term religious just turns me right off.

I have lots to say concerning being "commanded" to do something, but again, I don't take what I am doing as an order. In fact, I never needed to bring up the subject at all, but it's very interesting to me therefore it came out of me. 

*Now onto something else.*

In terms of right and wrong, who determines this? What can we say is right, and what can we say is wrong?


----------



## shev

Knight~Ryder said:


> In terms of right and wrong, who determines this? What can we say is right, and what can we say is wrong?



If by "right and wrong" you mean socially acceptable, then it's ultimately up to the individuals to decide. After all, that's what societies are made up of, and they create the norms. 

Society

And by, "*Now onto something else." *do you mean "Now back to the beginning of the thread"? Seems we're going around in circles.


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> *Now onto something else.*
> In terms of right and wrong, who determines this? What can we say is right, and what can we say is wrong?


hmmmmmmmm? Way more difficult than truth.

I have contemplated this one also KR and this the best example which I can verbalize is:

Most of us know that it is *wrong* to kill our neighbor.

The real question though is how do we know the *wrongness* of such an act?

As a pundit (I hope) of evolution* I believe that this behavior was buried deep inside our brains well prior to *Lucy* being conceived by her parents ie. one humanoid cannot deal with a pack of wolves but a tribe easily can and, hence, the elimination of a member of the tribe just means "one less feller to help deal with the wolves".

*Evolution not being necessarily in Darwinist's concepts but in the concept that the creation of life was natural**, evolution (and in a few instances revolution) occurred and we are the result.

**This may sound weird and is definitely "outside the envelope" but is a Deity not what we would term as supernatural which such word only means that we cannot currently explain our observations.




shev said:


> And by, "*Now onto something else." *do you mean "Now back to the beginning of the thread"? Seems we're going around in circles.


sh: In my humble opinion *No* as KR has ceased quoting Scripture but has commenced asking questions which such questions I would term "the first few stepping stones to *understanding*".


TR


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## emc7

Wrong is easier to define that right. Everyone has something they consider wrong. And I agree with Jones that a lot of our "wrongs" make good evolutionary sense. Its not good genetically to have children with your sibling. Most people aren't attracted to those raised as siblings to them (same house, close in age). But siblings that were raised apart (perhaps adopted) have met and wanted to marry. They avoided the biological urge to seek partners "outside the nest". Then there are "wrongs" that are necessary for a functioning society. Unchecked fraud, & theft will ruin an economy. Unchecked violence will ruin a nation. I do believe there is and should continue to be a difference between "wrong" and "'illegal". Its illegal to speed through rural Montana in the middle of the night. Its illegal and wrong to speed through a downtown sidewalk at noon. Its illegal to misspell "flammable" on a hazardous materials form. Its not wrong, just stupid. 

After you debate right and wrong then you have to discuss ends and means. When is a wrong acceptable to prevent a greater wrong? Is it ok to kill you to save your immortal soul? What do you do about conflicts between your idea of wrong and someone else's? If a group of people firmly believe that letting girls learn to read is wrong, do you have the right to force them to change? To take the girl children from them? Should you go to war even though killing another human is wrong? 

I find these questions more relevant that the questions of God's existence. I don't rely of fear of divine punishment to prevent me from doing wrong. I don't like the use of any "divine" law as a basis for human law. Outlawing something because something is wrong (such as embryo destruction) when there is no compelling interest for the society at large (We aren't in danger of underpopulation) is a misuse of means (our government) toward an unrelated end (fewer "wrongs"). IMO government should not serve any moral agenda. But educating the girls would mean a better educated work force and a higher standard of living. You can make a case for mandatory schooling as being in the 'national interest'. i would like to see all laws current and proposed being debated on the basis of 'national interest' vs. 'individual liberties'. Right and wrong has no place in the discussion.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> To take the girl children from them?


em: this hits very close to home as the *cult* which yall have read about over the last year or so in only about 60 miles from San Angelo and the venue was changed to Tom Green County (San Angelo).

This goes way beyond reading!!! (BTW although many folks decry Masonic principals if not for these principals the concept of public education would not have been implemented by the folks in the 1700's who conceived our Constitution [it is really irritating to me that all kids do not have the availability of a high quality education but I will not rant and rave on this issue])

The males in this cult had sexual congress with girls in puberty as well as prior to their puberty. Is this activity *right?* well IMHO it is not!

My cognitive dissonance with this activity is based upon the penal implementation in the State of Texas. IMHO the appropriate penalty for the fellers who performed this activity as well as the mothers who allowed this activity to occur should be capital and should be performed on the Tom Green County Court House lawn.














emc7 said:


> Is it ok to kill you to save your immortal soul?


*No!*




emc7 said:


> I find these questions more relevant that the questions of God's existence.


*Absolutely* and KR is finally commencing to cease quoting Scripture but is asking some of the *hard* questions!




emc7 said:


> i would like to see all laws current and proposed being debated on the basis of 'national interest' vs. 'individual liberties'.


em: I absolutely agree as I am a real libertarian but you and I could very well be assassinated for the publication of this belief.

Your statement gets deep into the debate concerning the 10th Amendment to the Constitution (The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the *people*) but *powers* are nowhere identical to *rights*!

TR


----------



## TheOldSalt

emc7 said:


> i would like to see all laws current and proposed being debated on the basis of 'national interest' vs. 'individual liberties'. Right and wrong has no place in the discussion.



You'd better watch out with talk like that. You just might get what you wished for, and it would surely bite you on the butt. Stupid laws like Imminent Domain are just a small example of the threat something like this poses. Legal? Apparently. But right? Hardly.


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## COM

Eminent Domain laws allow for development that is for the greater good (supposedly). You may be forced to hand over your personal property but you will be well compensated for it and hopefully the new use of the lands will benefit more people. There are, of course, countless examples of this not working out, but in concept I like it.


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## mrmoby

COM said:


> Eminent Domain laws allow for development that is for the greater good (supposedly). You may be forced to hand over your personal property but you will be well compensated for it and hopefully the new use of the lands will benefit more people. There are, of course, countless examples of thi not working out, but in concept I like it.


This is really going off topic, but I have to comment on this.

Originally, the concept of eminent domain was supposed to be for the greater good, meaning hospitals, schools, roadways, or some other sort of municipal infrastrucutre project. If your home is the last thing in the path of a new highway, well, your going to have to move.

The problem is, the Supreme court has decided that "greater good" includes private interest. Meaning if a developer feels that your neighborhood would make a nice mall, they do have a mechanism to seize your land, "greater good" can be argued because of tax revenue that a mall would generate for the municipality. This was not supposed to be the intent of eminent domain.

Also, eminent domain calls only for "fair compensation"which is a very loose term in which the landowner often gets shafted.

Sorry to help sidetrack things, but had to comment.


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## FlatLine

I think that the biggest problem that I have with quoting scripture in any of this, is the version of the Bible. First of all, it's a book written by man that has been translated and adapted for a very long period of time. Second the version of the Bible that is accepted today is the King James version. This version of the Bible was translated, and modified in a time period where books and literature were flourishing, what was put into this version of the Bible had to be accepted by King James, everything taught in that version of the Bible reinforced what King James wanted for his society and people. So in my opinion, that version of the Bible was used as a tool to control a populace, therefore I cannot believe in it.


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## jones57742

TOS, COM and mr:

Excuse me for :lol: :lol: :lol: here but yall have just touched the tip of the iceberg.

An excellent example is condemnation via floodway designation by FEMA which such condemnation is without remuneration.

TR


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## emc7

Stuff like eminent domain is what we should be debating. I think the taking of property to benefit private interests is unlawful or should be. The private property protections are a big reason people want to invest here. Weakening them will eventually hurt our economy. It doesn't have to be "wrong" to be wrong for the nation. 

We shouldn't be wasting time on non-issues like "moment of silence" in schools and flag-burning and policing labs and uteri to protect 1-celled organisms. The big national issue while the banking system went to hell: should a small % of the population be allowed to marry? Right or wrong, wheres the national interest? How would it hurt the country if two brides marry? We'd get more tax, thanks to the marriage penalty. I'd rather see government auditing our financial institutions than gender testing license applicants.

IMO the slider should sit pretty far toward individual liberty and the 'national interest' should be very compelling before any laws are written. It gets murkier for me when kids are involved. Do you let a kid die because the parents don't believe in medical intervention? Does the state have to care for every child? Because of that, does the state have an financial interest in reducing the number of children? Shouldn't they then promote birth control and limit IVF? It would be cheaper for our county to have fewer kids and instead selectively import adults with skills and money to invest. Let immigrants buy there way in and beat the "coyotes' at their own game.


----------



## FlatLine

emc7 said:


> Stuff like eminent domain is what we should be debating. Not non-issues like "moment of silence" in schools and flag-burning and policing labs and uteri to protect 1-celled organisms. IMO the slider should sit pretty far toward individual liberty and the 'national interest' should be very compelling before any laws are written. It gets murkier for me when kids are involved. Do you a kid die because the parents don't believe in medical intervention?


I would definitely love a thread started on this...


----------



## Knight~Ryder

As far as this thread going "off topic" I don't mind in the least. I created it, and I see no problems with anyone seemingly going off topic. In my opinion it's not going off topic.

Since this conversation is bringing up a few things,
I would like to bring up Alex jones. *How credible do you think this man is?* I have heard and read many things from him. He seems a little loud at times, but he urges us not to take his word for it and look for the things he says for ourselves.

I can give you his site
www.infowars.com

*Also I'll give you one of his videos. Listen at the 9:50 mark, seems a little strange (you can listen at about the 4 minute mark on)* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJJAeo5yqS4

The obama deception http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od8bcCvX3jU

The new world order system can be tied up and in the mix with this whole thread.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> I think that the biggest problem that I have with quoting scripture in any of this, is the version of the Bible. First of all, it's a book written by man that has been translated and adapted for a very long period of time. Second the version of the Bible that is accepted today is the King James version. This version of the Bible was translated, and modified in a time period where books and literature were flourishing, what was put into this version of the Bible had to be accepted by King James, everything taught in that version of the Bible reinforced what King James wanted for his society and people. So in my opinion, that version of the Bible was used as a tool to control a populace, therefore I cannot believe in it.


What about going back to the original manuscripts in hebrew and greek. This is possible.

But even then you have people that "don't believe"

It's not a question of written letter exactly. It was there as a means of a way to communicate what God was saying, but going straight to the source is the answer.


----------



## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> What about going back to the original manuscripts in hebrew and greek. This is possible.
> 
> But even then you have people that "don't believe"
> 
> It's not a question of written letter exactly. It was there as a means of a way to communicate what God was saying, but going straight to the source is the answer.


I would certainly give such documents a lot more respect over a book that was designed to control a mass populace to follow one human leader, going against the teachings of Christ.


----------



## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> As far as this thread going "off topic" I don't mind in the least. I created it, and I see no problems with anyone seemingly going off topic. In my opinion it's not going off topic.
> 
> Since this conversation is bringing up a few things,
> I would like to bring up Alex jones. *How credible do you think this man is?* I have heard and read many things from him. He seems a little loud at times, but he urges us not to take his word for it and look for the things he says for ourselves.
> 
> I can give you his site
> www.infowars.com
> 
> *Also I'll give you one of his videos. Listen at the 9:50 mark, seems a little strange (you can listen at about the 4 minute mark on)* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJJAeo5yqS4
> 
> The obama deception http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od8bcCvX3jU
> 
> The new world order system can be tied up and in the mix with this whole thread.


The only thing that I know about Alex Jones, is he is tied into talking about the Zeitgeist movies, which were interesting to watch. I'm sure what my take is on it though.

I will have to listen to Alex Jones on my computer tonight.....


----------



## jones57742

FlatLine said:


> everything taught in that version of the Bible reinforced what King James wanted for his society and people.


FL: what I believe that I read many years ago was the translation was accomplished in order to end various dichotomies with respect to several sects in the Church of England but your concept makes more sense to me with respect to the undertaking of such a massive effort.

Please note though that this 18th century translation was not from the original script but from various portions of Hebrew, Greek, and Latin texts.

IMHO the translation occurred when originals of these texts were extant and hence this translation is our "best guess" (sounds funny when the topic is ...) of the content.




emc7 said:


> Let immigrants buy there way in and beat the "coyotes' at their own game.


Amen!!!!! (no pun intended)




Knight~Ryder said:


> How credible do you think this man is?


KR: I believe the feller to be a basket case!


TR


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## FlatLine

jones57742 said:


> FL: what I believe that I read many years ago was the translation was accomplished in order to end various dichotomies with respect to several sects in the Church of England but your concept makes more sense to me with respect to the undertaking of such a massive effort.
> 
> Please note though that this 18th century translation was not from the original script but from various portions of Hebrew, Greek, and Latin texts.
> 
> IMHO the translation occurred when originals of these texts were extant and hence this translation is our "best guess" (sounds funny when the topic is ...) of the content.
> 
> 
> TR


I had assumed that the Bible must have been translated from at least Latin texts. But this even furthers my thoughts on, at the very least, "lost in translation". We all know the game telephone. 

As a thought, what are the differences to the Gutenberg Bible? I'm not familiar on the history, but was the Gutenberg version a printed King James, or is it yet another version?


----------



## Kurtfr0

I have a question.


Who knows?


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## emc7

1455, Latin Vulgate translation printed in Mainz, Germany. wikipedia is your friend.


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## Knight~Ryder

emc7 said:


> Mainz, Germany


Speaking of Mainz, Germany you reminded me of someone. Martin Luther. His ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.


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## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> As a thought, what are the differences to the Gutenberg Bible? I'm not familiar on the history, but was the Gutenberg version a printed King James, or is it yet another version?


You have your answer, but I'll let you in on a little more.

There are two present sets of original manuscripts available for these translators to use. One is the Received Text which comes from the Byzantine era which was at that time more closely associated to the true apostolic fathers who were the eye witnesses to Jesus life, death and resurrection. The Western church took up the heresies of the Gnostic and other doctrines that were not held as canon by the Apostles and Paul.

The other text that seems to be a favorite for the ones who would like to change or twist the translation to mean what they want it to mean are using the Vaticanus or Siniaticus. This text was considered by Middle Age scholars to be not only spurious but in error and was discarded as credible. From what I have read this manuscript had been on the shelf at the Vatican library for some many years untouched because they realized the monk's errors. Because it was not used and was found older than the most recent copies of the Received Text, modern translators (who are perverting the truth by using it) thought it was a better one to use. I tend to steer away from any of the translations which use this text rather than the Received Text. A good book to read to help you understand the intricacies of what God was allowing to happen to the church from the first to the present century can be found in Alan Knight's book Primitive Christianity. *(Read 2 Thessalonians for the prophecy of this time when deception will be the rule rather than truth.) *

With that all said. The origin of the Bible is God. It is a historical book that is backed by archeology, and a prophetic book that has lived up to all of its claims thus far. The Bible is God's letter to humanity collected into 66 books written by 40 divinely inspired writers over a period of over 1,600 years. The claim of divine inspiration may seem dramatic (or unrealistic to some), but a careful and honest study of the biblical scriptures will show them to be true. Powerfully, the Bible validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). God decided to use prophecy as His primary test of divine authorship, and an honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the supernatural origin of the Bible. Skeptics must ask themselves, "Would the gambling industry even exist if people could really tell the future?" Again, no other holy book comes even close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its credibility, authenticity and divine authorship.


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## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> You have your answer, but I'll let you in on a little more.
> 
> There are two present sets of original manuscripts available for these translators to use. One is the Received Text which comes from the Byzantine era which was at that time more closely associated to the true apostolic fathers who were the eye witnesses to Jesus life, death and resurrection. The Western church took up the heresies of the Gnostic and other doctrines that were not held as canon by the Apostles and Paul.


This I had not known, thanks for the info. I assume when you're talking Western church, I assume the modern way Christians worship Christ?


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## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Speaking of Mainz, Germany you reminded me of someone. Martin Luther. His ideas started the Protestant Reformation and changed the course of Western civilization.


KR: Yes but unfortunately in my brain his precepts, IMHO, only degraded the intent of the 1st century churches.

The Restoration, IMHO, is much more important although obviously has been less publicized than the Reformation.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> This I had not known, thanks for the info. I assume when you're talking Western church, I assume the modern way Christians worship Christ?


Let me put it to you this way. In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise.

No congregation is perfect. If there was such, it would no longer be once you and I found out about it and joined it. No church in history has ever been all it should be, just as no person has ever been. Just as we are always to be reforming our lives, which is what repentance means, we are also to be reforming the church, which is always erroneous and imperfect to some degree. That is reformation. The restorationist, on the other hand, believes that he has restored the one true church, and this from the pattern set forth in scripture. All others have to be wrong. There can be no error or "brothers in error." And so such ones continually divide, for when some new "truth" is found in the pattern a "loyal church" starts for those who want all the truth. They usually debate each other as to whether the new interpretation is indeed "according to the pattern," or whether an "innovation" that has been introduced is authorized by the pattern.

As a restorationist church, the Church of Christ has always been divisive, dividing once every ten years since its existence. It will continue to divide unless it surrenders its exclusivistic­restorationist view of the church and accepts the reformation view of its earliest pioneers, who never had the notion that they and they alone were the one true church. Since restorationists will have nothing to do with other churches, they can never be a unity people. As reformers we can reach out to others and make unity our business. We reform the church by building bridges of love and fellowship between all God's children.


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## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> The Restoration, IMHO, is much more important although obviously has been less publicized than the Reformation


I would love to know why you think this.


----------



## COM

KR: you are plagiarizing!

http://www.biblestudy.org/question/which-bible-translation-is-closes-to-original-manuscripts.html 

Tsk tsk... What would Jesus think?

"spurious" gave you away...


----------



## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> Let me put it to you this way. In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise.
> 
> No congregation is perfect. If there was such, it would no longer be once you and I found out about it and joined it. No church in history has ever been all it should be, just as no person has ever been. Just as we are always to be reforming our lives, which is what repentance means, we are also to be reforming the church, which is always erroneous and imperfect to some degree. That is reformation. The restorationist, on the other hand, believes that he has restored the one true church, and this from the pattern set forth in scripture. All others have to be wrong. There can be no error or "brothers in error." And so such ones continually divide, for when some new "truth" is found in the pattern a "loyal church" starts for those who want all the truth. They usually debate each other as to whether the new interpretation is indeed "according to the pattern," or whether an "innovation" that has been introduced is authorized by the pattern.
> 
> As a restorationist church, the Church of Christ has always been divisive, dividing once every ten years since its existence. It will continue to divide unless it surrenders its exclusivistic****restorationist view of the church and accepts the reformation view of its earliest pioneers, who never had the notion that they and they alone were the one true church. Since restorationists will have nothing to do with other churches, they can never be a unity people. As reformers we can reach out to others and make unity our business. We reform the church by building bridges of love and fellowship between all God's children.


No offense, but you're really looking too deep into my question. I already understand how Christianity has migrated through the times, and I've already understood what you've said before asking my question. 

My thought process on this is such, IF Christianity is not followed in the same manner as original, and has been adapted to different societies, cultures, political beliefs over thousands of years, how can we know we're following the actual teaching of Christ? My answer to this is faith. We have to have faith that the religion has had Christ at it's true core the whole time, through oppressive leaders, through wars and conflicts with competing religions and through greed and corruption. Me personally, if I have faith that it hasn't lost it's true meaning in that sense, and the teachings haven't been altered that much, that would be blasphemy, because we know it has been tainted. So if that's the case, we'd be worshiping human agenda, and not Christ.

That's why I think it would be awesome if we could look at the original scripture, one that we know and can prove is the original and compare, just to see how much things have been altered to suit the times.

One example that still sticks with me, and it's a small example, please take with a grain of salt, is with the Catholic church. Having to change staunch position on sex between married couples, food options, and tithing to suit a populace to keep them happy, shows that they are more concerned with keeping followers than following the word of God.


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## emc7

The issue isn't a lack of scriptures, its too many. Every revision of scripture splits the church. Even switching to local languages from Latin is mourned by some people. And some Latin masses are coming back in Catholic churches. 

The dead sea scrolls contains very old versions of scripture (but still well after the time of Christ) including some that were excluded from the bible for various reasons. At one time there were around 10 potential gospels and only 4 made it into the book. People who research early Christianity get more confused. I've been told every scientist should read the gospel of Thomas (the guy who stuck his finger in the side of the risen Christ).


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> I would love to know why you think this.


KR: Just one example but were the various 1st century churches "organized": well no they were not but I am not aware of any church which came of the Reformation which is not "organized"

Out of the Restoration came several churches but the extreme example is the Church's of Christ.

The only "organization" of these Churches of which I am aware is their common support of two CoC universities.

Please note that unfortunately these Churches promote some dogma although not from the pulpit.

A humorous example of this type dogma is joke in West Texas concerning the Baptists in Abilene, Texas;

"H....l that town is turning so liberal that the Baptists even speak to each other in the liquor store these days"!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:




FlatLine said:


> One example that still sticks with me, and it's a small example, please take with a grain of salt, is with the Catholic church. Having to change staunch position on sex between married couples, food options, and tithing to suit a populace to keep them happy, shows that they are more concerned with keeping followers than following the word of God.


FL: IMHO *Ditto!!!!*

Your citations are dogmatic definitions and hence generated by the powers that be in the RCC: these folks never heard (ie. in person) the words spoken by Jesus when he was mortal or subsequent to His resurrection but prior to His ascendancy.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> No offense, but you're really looking too deep into my question. I already understand how Christianity has migrated through the times, and I've already understood what you've said before asking my question.
> 
> My thought process on this is such, IF Christianity is not followed in the same manner as original, and has been adapted to different societies, cultures, political beliefs over thousands of years, how can we know we're following the actual teaching of Christ? My answer to this is faith. We have to have faith that the religion has had Christ at it's true core the whole time, through oppressive leaders, through wars and conflicts with competing religions and through greed and corruption. Me personally, if I have faith that it hasn't lost it's true meaning in that sense, and the teachings haven't been altered that much, that would be blasphemy, because we know it has been tainted. So if that's the case, we'd be worshiping human agenda, and not Christ.
> 
> That's why I think it would be awesome if we could look at the original scripture, one that we know and can prove is the original and compare, just to see how much things have been altered to suit the times.
> 
> One example that still sticks with me, and it's a small example, please take with a grain of salt, is with the Catholic church. Having to change staunch position on sex between married couples, food options, and tithing to suit a populace to keep them happy, shows that they are more concerned with keeping followers than following the word of God.


I must quote scripture here. I can rant and rave about it with my own words (as I have when I posted my testimony back on the second page) but I think this portion of scripture sums it up pretty well.

Galatians 3:1-5

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? *Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?* Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 

When we hear the call of God and we respond with the flesh, we can not attain all that was really givin to us.

So jones as interesting as this whole topic is, I still stand on my point about this very strong. The full experience of God does not come through the flesh.


----------



## COM

KR- any thoughts on the plagiarism?


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## Kurtfr0

And no one answered my question!


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## Knight~Ryder

No not really com. My thought process is ruined by this thread. Jesus quoted scripture too, so he's a major player. :lol:

Kurt, your question was who knows.
What was that pertaining to.


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## jones57742

Folks:

IMHO this thread is commencing to become counterproductive.

We are starting to "go round in circles" and I also detect some minor heat flaming going on here as well.

My vote now is to terminate this thread.

Should yall disagree I will continue my participation but I just refuse to respond to posts which are redundant or which contain even a modicum of heat.

TR


----------



## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> I must quote scripture here. I can rant and rave about it with my own words (as I have when I posted my testimony back on the second page) but I think this portion of scripture sums it up pretty well.
> 
> Galatians 3:1-5
> 
> You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? *Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?* Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
> 
> When we hear the call of God and we respond with the flesh, we can not attain all that was really givin to us.
> 
> So jones as interesting as this whole topic is, I still stand on my point about this very strong. The full experience of God does not come through the flesh.


I like that, it pretty much underscores what I'm saying. 

I would also add that very little of the experience of God can come through the flesh. Only our interaction physically with things around us. But internally is the true experience of God.


----------



## Kurtfr0

who knows If god is real? that was it.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Kurtfr0 said:


> who knows If god is real? that was it.


What has been your personal experience been, if any?


----------



## Knight~Ryder

FlatLine said:


> I like that, it pretty much underscores what I'm saying.
> 
> I would also add that very little of the experience of God can come through the flesh. Only our interaction physically with things around us. But internally is the true experience of God.


Hence the reason I wrote my testimony back on the second page. I do realize however that we all operate at different levels (so to speak) but we can attain what we were meant to attain here in this experience we call life.

It's great we all can exchange ideas, beliefs, experiences, and opinions here.

I'm glad you see that it really begins inwardly rather then outward.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

On behalf of another member here who messaged me private I would like to post what they wrote to me.

_My thoughts on religion are: Science is my favorite subject at school and I really don't see much conflict with anything my religion teaches. I am Mormon, and I go to scripture study class each morning before school. We are studying the New Testament this year, and I can see the way it was written how a lot of people could get confused, but if people believe all the scientific historical accounts like Galileo's and Copernicus, then why not believe the historical accounts taken in the Bible?_


----------



## Kurtfr0

My exp with what? I have not seen any proof on this thread that god is real.

so I was asking.


----------



## COM

Knight~Ryder said:


> No not really com. My thought process is ruined by this thread. Jesus quoted scripture too, so he's a major player. :lol:


So you are comparing your blatant copy-and-paste from someone else's writing to Jesus? If one ever needed an indictment of the religious absurdity...

(Edit: No hostility intended. Just pointing out some obvious ethical soup)


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Kurtfr0 said:


> My exp with what? I have not seen any proof on this thread that god is real.
> 
> so I was asking.


What kind of proof are you looking for?


----------



## TheOldSalt

Okay, I think this has gone on long enough. Either cut the stupidity or just give up already.

As for proof, a huge glowing fist could appear in the sky over Clearwater, Florida and, in clear view of a CNN news camera team which happened to be handy for some other reason, it could slam down onto the headquarters of the Church of Scientology, smashing it to bits, while a huge voice boomed throughout the sky for miles around saying "I Am the Lord thy God, and I shall NOT be denied," and it could get broadcasted constantly on every channel for the next three days, and STILL most of the goobers in this thread and on this planet wouldn't believe it proved anything.

Knock it off, already. Sheesh. It would be more fun at this point to try to get the other side to prove God _doesn't_ exist.


----------



## jones57742

COM said:


> So you are comparing your blatant copy-and-paste from someone else's writing to Jesus? If one ever needed an indictment of the religious absurdity...
> 
> (Edit: *No hostility intended.* Just pointing out some obvious ethical soup)


COM: 

Please excuse me here and I am by no means trying to "tell you what to do" but I believe that just:
*So you are comparing your copying-and-pasting from authorship other than by you to Jesus' citation of his previous teachings or the Old Testament?* might be appropriate.

I believe that KR has previously read thoroughly the text of the portions of his posts which he has copied from; can easily go back to the source; and believes that the source expression is much better than he can verbalize (you have seen me do this once or twice).

KR:

The above is very legitimate question and your response would be appreciated.

Based upon COM's comments would citations of your references not be appropriate?




Kurtfr0 said:


> My exp with what? I have not seen any proof on this thread that god is real.
> 
> so I was asking.





Knight~Ryder said:


> What kind of proof are you looking for?


Folks:

IMHO the "existence of a Deity" question at the most basic level (ie. like physics) has hinged on the creation of life starting with elements and inorganic compounds.

IMHO somewhere down the road we will be able to create life in a test tube.

So, IMHO, the question is how one "disproves the existence of a Deity".

Excuse my rambling now but as I have indicated in previous posts the existence of a Deity would be supernatural where supernatural just implies that we do not have an explanation of our observations.

*A classic example of supernatural is:*

In 1054 A.D. a ton of Chinese headed to caves as the night sky became very bright and obviously "the world was ending". (this observation was *supernatural* to them).

We now know that their observation was just the supernova in the Crab Nebula which is *natural* to us.

TR


----------



## Kurtfr0

TheOldSalt said:


> Okay, I think this has gone on long enough. Either cut the stupidity or just give up already.
> 
> As for proof, a huge glowing fist could appear in the sky over Clearwater, Florida and, in clear view of a CNN news camera team which happened to be handy for some other reason, it could slam down onto the headquarters of the Church of Scientology, smashing it to bits, while a huge voice boomed throughout the sky for miles around saying "I Am the Lord thy God, and I shall NOT be denied," and it could get broadcasted constantly on every channel for the next three days, and STILL most of the goobers in this thread and on this planet wouldn't believe it proved anything.
> 
> Knock it off, already. Sheesh. It would be more fun at this point to try to get the other side to prove God _doesn't_ exist.




Well, The title says proof hes real.

So I asked. and if that DID happen, I'd believe it.

I just see more proof pointing to evolution then god, Not to say I'm athiest because I'm not. 

So thats the reason I asked that specific question.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> COM:
> 
> I believe that KR has previously read thoroughly the text of the portions of his posts which he has copied from; can easily go back to the source; and believes that the source expression is much better than he can verbalize (you have seen me do this once or twice).


Yes, thanks for clarifying this. I didn't really want to go into details. (don't feel the need to for this thread) Any time I can post the source but when it's all said and done my heart still lies in what I wrote in my testimony on the second page. Please read it if you haven't.



jones57742 said:


> KR:
> 
> The above is very legitimate question and your response would be appreciated.
> 
> Based upon COM's comments would citations of your references not be appropriate?


They sure would, I need to find them again! :lol: Might take me a bit.



jones57742 said:


> Folks:
> 
> IMHO the "existence of a Deity" question at the most basic level (ie. like physics) has hinged on the creation of life starting with elements and inorganic compounds.
> 
> IMHO somewhere down the road we will be able to create life in a test tube.
> 
> So, IMHO, the question is how one "disproves the existence of a Deity".
> 
> Excuse my rambling now but as I have indicated in previous posts the existence of a Deity would be supernatural where supernatural just implies that we do not have an explanation of our observations.


Also remember that this is not life forever and ever amen. This is not "true" life. Not the true life of God as he intended...ready to go deeper anyone.....


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> ready to go deeper anyone.....


*Absolutely!* Let her rip!




Knight~Ryder said:


> They sure would, I need to find them again! Might take me a bit.


KR: I was referencing your future posts.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

*This conversation is based on a conversation I had with 2 other people. The topic was "If the road is easy, your likely going the wrong way" I'm posting this because in my mind this is entry level stuff for me, (though getting to this point was not the easiest) but for others it can be a little tough. I wanted to go deeper with this, so I'll begin here.*

Slađana says: if the road is easy, your likely going the wrong way.

Nemanja says: I agree with you 100% 

Slađana says: Goody,lets see who else does.

Jordan says: Well, this is what we are led to believe. On the outside it may seem hard and difficult, but truly though it isnt. We were taught that if we want to follow God and renounce the world that it will be difficult, but this is a lie, a very big lie. The only reason why the road may be hard, is because we are resisting it, but if we just let it fall into place and let God be in control, it won't be. Remember, God doesnt reason on mans level, so he doesnt think like we do. The more you humble yourself and let the "ego" "satan" "selfishness" go and let GOD be GOD, then you will experience it because you are truly inviting it. Understand who you are now (not past, not future) there you will find yourself. We are taught that our culture, our background, our whole way of living was us and that was our "god", but it's all a lie that we bought into. It's time to let it go and let God be God. Stop defining him, stop labeling him, stop putting God in a box, and start experiencing him for who he is.

Jordan says: So yes, I agree with you at first. But the more we walk in God and let go of our fleshly desires, it will be easy, and soon we will realize it isnt us trying to be "good" anymore. It was God carrying us. 

Slađana says: WoW Jordan I knew you were going to write a novel regarding this status......I was just waiting...and I really think you should become a preacher ...But my status has many meanings, and some do not involve God, try to think outside of the box ...People have to love themselves, respect themselves, know themselves, believe in themselves, etc... before they get on the right path and for some it is not easy...I think you and I for once have different opinions about God and his intentions. ...Smileeee 

Jordan says: Ahhh, but see, this is our "ego" talking. What are you truly believing in? The "ego". Do you experience a judgmental God, or a completly non-judgmental God? God can not be defined my dear friend. As soon as we label him in our language which is of man made origin, God is no longer God. I have come through so much to see that there is no more dark lessons, everything is made for his Glory and our perfection.
We were taught to believe in ourselves, but it was never in us. Because "us" can never have an answer.

Nemanja says: I understand everything you guys are saying but I know one thing is for sure, and that is, that I will never truly love myself, respect myself, know myself and believe in myself if I don't have Jesus in my life. And I would love for everyone to realize that for themselves. 

Jordan says: Yes! True, so true. because of who Jesus is and represents and what love he showed. When will we do that for us and for others. We are not here to be glorified....(that statement in itself I could "preach" about for months.


Jordan says: We put a lot of meaning in our earthly life which really amounts to nothing, but once we realize what our underlying motives are for everything we do, then and only then can we see the bigger picture. Ultimately. Who are you living for, what are you living for and what purpose do you serve? If it's for yourself, then nothing can be accomplished. We need to strip ourselves of all pride and selfishness and understand we don't need to please our flesh in ways we thought we needed to. This is not our "home" it was never meant to be, there is a greater purpose, realizing it now will be much more helpful on the way.

Nemanja says: wow I'm sorry but that is not my friend Jordan speaking, wow. praise God my friend. That was so well said. 

Slađana says: do u love urself?

Nemanja says: through Christ I Love myself yes!

Slađana says: Good for you!!

Nemanja says: 

Jordan says: I wont settle for anything other then God, nothing less
and ultimately the "I" that I am is not the real me. Remember when Jesus said "I am, that I am". Seeing his vision is what we need to see.

Jordan says: I am that I am is not the little ego we thought we were
its the eternal being we are now.

Slađana says: So do you agree with me that you should be a preacher or something like it?


Nemanja says: man God's spirit is truly with us today, what has been said here in a short amount of time is truly inspiring for all of us. 

Nemanja says: I agree with you Sladjo but also know that everyone who has the spirit in them can speak like this, even me.  So you suggesting for me to be a preacher?

Jordan says: No, I am called to do exactly as I'm doing right now, this very minute. We all have different ministries, and because of our "humanness" we see things differently. It's when we journey into Christs vision that we will start seeing God for who he is and not what we made him. We made God into our own image our whole lives...I think it's time to step out of that now. 

Jordan says: Hey guys listen, I'm about to head to bed. Please understand I love both of you so much and that will never end. God is really more simple then we have made it. We can discuss all day, and still see it in our own way. So really it's letting God be. Let our focus be on him and nothing else. In and through God, we will enjoy this life as a whole. Have wonderful nights and take care always. Tonight was eye opening and will always be. It was wonderful to have this chat with you both. You are both loved.

Slađana says: i still believe in my status...these days nothing is easy.. many people face the obstacles on their paths no matter what the destination is..It takes time to make a non-believer into a believer

Jordan says: If you believe it will take time, it will take time, but it is needless. You are responsible for your life totally. It's you choosing it will take time, so it will. Remember God did it already, it is finsihed...so if we continue to think it's not finsihed, it won't be on our level.

Nemanja says: are you saying your a non believer right now Sladjana?

Slađana says: no that was just an example...since you guys have added only one meaning to my status I made up an example according to it. If you know what I mean.

Jordan says: Point is, some people never get past labels. If you truly believe you are what you say you are or what others say you are, then you are! But really it's all an illusion.

Slađana says: ok, lets see who can name more meanings to this status...that person will get candy.

Nemanja says: I didn't mean to turn it into one meaning. When I first read it I thought about how we live are lives and go through many obstacles, just like the movie Pilgrims Progress. But are ultimate goal is to find peace and Joy and that I believe is only through Christs love.

Slađana says: Ya I can see that Jordan took it to the extremes..like WOW chill Jordan...my facebook is on fire.....okay I'm getting delirious time for the nighty night...Peace out and GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!!

Nemanja says: God Bless you too always!

Jordan says: Actually I didn't take it to the extreme, how many times in life do we take little things to the extreme? Education, work, money, relationships, ANYTHING! (but thats being responsible and wise right?) From the moment we are born we are taught to be ego, and live for ourselves. Maybe it's time to undo it. Some people aren't ready to see that change, hey I wasnt even ready to see it,it is being undone though, thank God for that.

Jordan says: Thought I would throw this in...
Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. 

Romans 12:4-8
4 - For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.


----------



## shev

Very off topic, just wondering about your avatar, Knight~ryder.










A hitch hiking Wal-Mart smiley in front of an Indonesian flag... what does it mean?


----------



## Knight~Ryder

I wasn't thinking about an indonesian flag, nor was I thinking about hitchhiking! :lol:

Now back on topic. 

Jones what would you consider to be a deeper conversation? 

A logical conversation or
A more spiritual conversation?


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> I wasn't thinking about an indonesian flag, nor was I thinking about hitchhiking! :lol:


KR: you did not answer Shev's question which was set forth in the form of a statement.

I am curious also.

My avatar is obviously a reproduction of an "ideal Bevo".




Knight~Ryder said:


> Jones what would you consider to be a deeper conversation?
> 
> A logical conversation or
> A more spiritual conversation?


I do not know how one would describe the following with respect to "logical or spiritual" but I would appreciate a response of your as well as everyone else's thinking relevant thereto.



jones57742 said:


> Folks:
> 
> IMHO the "existence of a Deity" question at the most basic level (ie. like physics) has hinged on the creation of life starting with elements and inorganic compounds.
> 
> IMHO somewhere down the road we will be able to create life in a test tube.
> 
> So, IMHO, the question is how one "disproves the existence of a Deity".
> 
> Excuse my rambling now but as I have indicated in previous posts the existence of a Deity would be supernatural where supernatural just implies that we do not have an explanation of our observations.
> 
> *A classic example of supernatural is:*
> 
> In 1054 A.D. a ton of Chinese headed to caves as the night sky became very bright and obviously "the world was ending". (this observation was *supernatural* to them).
> 
> We now know that their observation was just the supernova in the Crab Nebula which is *natural* to us.
> 
> TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> KR: you did not answer Shev's question which was set forth in the form of a statement.


I sure did answer. I had no idea the flag was indonesian, I also didn't know that he was hitchhiking. I simply wanted that smiley face with a thumbs up. 



jones57742 said:


> My avatar is obviously a reproduction of an "ideal Bevo".


Sorry to hear that. 



jones57742 said:


> I do not know how one would describe the following with respect to "logical or spiritual" but I would appreciate a response of your as well as everyone else's thinking relevant thereto.


I see what your saying about supernatural, but there are many other things that happen that are still way beyond our understanding as of now. Maybe we will know in the future??


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> I sure did answer. I had no idea the flag was indonesian, I also didn't know that he was hitchhiking. *I simply wanted that smiley face with a thumbs up.*


Thanks: that was the answer.




Knight~Ryder said:


> I see what your saying about supernatural, but there are many other things that happen that are still way beyond our understanding as of now. Maybe we will know in the future??


but I believe that the *proof* of the existence of a Deity will never exist.

*as*



jones57742 said:


> IMHO the "existence of a Deity" question at the most basic level (ie. like physics) has hinged on the creation of life starting with elements and inorganic compounds.
> 
> IMHO somewhere down the road we will be able to create life in a test tube.


Folks: What I am saying is no proof or disproof a Deity exists or will ever exist per KR's last comment.

Perhaps this post is appropriately terminal for this thread?

If so I will miss the posts in this thread   as they have been very enlightening as well as educational for me.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> Folks: What I am saying is no proof or disproof a Deity exists or will ever exist per KR's last comment.


Now now hold on a minute. I was doing some thinking. When you hurt yourself, can you PROVE that there's pain? 

and

If it needs to come down to this. Wasn't Jesus God? In John 1:1 we read very plainly who was God.

If Jesus was God then do we really need any more proof? Now I understand why some people hate Jesus so much. As soon as you mention him being God incarnate people go NUTS!


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Came across a news story today.

Read here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7964880.stm

Does God have a role in the world today?
*
God will not intervene to prevent humanity from wreaking disastrous damage to the environment, the Archbishop of Canterbury has warned. What's your reaction to this?*

Dr Rowan Williams has urged a "radical change of heart" to prevent runaway climate change. At York Minster he said humanity should turn away from the selfishness and greed that leads it to ignore its interdependence with the natural world.

He said just as God gave humans free will to do "immeasurable damage" to themselves as individuals it seemed "clear" they had the same "terrible freedom" as a human race. He also warned that God would not guarantee a "happy ending".

*Are you a person of faith - Christianity or otherwise? Do you support Dr Williams' views? Is a 'radical change of heart' the only way to prevent climate change?*


----------



## FlatLine

Knight~Ryder said:


> Came across a news story today.
> 
> Read here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7964880.stm
> 
> Does God have a role in the world today?
> *
> God will not intervene to prevent humanity from wreaking disastrous damage to the environment, the Archbishop of Canterbury has warned. What's your reaction to this?*
> 
> Dr Rowan Williams has urged a "radical change of heart" to prevent runaway climate change. At York Minster he said humanity should turn away from the selfishness and greed that leads it to ignore its interdependence with the natural world.
> 
> He said just as God gave humans free will to do "immeasurable damage" to themselves as individuals it seemed "clear" they had the same "terrible freedom" as a human race. He also warned that God would not guarantee a "happy ending".
> 
> *Are you a person of faith - Christianity or otherwise? Do you support Dr Williams' views? Is a 'radical change of heart' the only way to prevent climate change?*



Hmm, I don't think this is even a faith issue... There is no doubt that on a whole, everyone needs to change their outlook to understand that their individual actions affect more than just themselves....


----------



## Againsthecurent

Climate change has always been happening and always will. Those who think we can control this and nature will be mistaken. We could debate global warming for a very long time. It is happening as most if not all scientists agree, but is it man made. The earth has gone through these changes before between ice age and warming trends long before the industrial revolution. Should we through conservation out the window? Of course not, but let’s be realistic. As soon as politics enters the scene, science is lost!


----------



## TheOldSalt

I tend to seriously doubt that climate change will ever amount to any real problem for humanity. We'll all be wiped out long before things get too toasty.


----------



## jones57742

Againsthecurent said:


> Climate change has always been happening and always will.


Never Kick Indian Women

The last four major ice ages which are the:
Nebraskan,
Kansan,
Illinoian, and
Wisconsin.

TR


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Gotta love this question that I hear all the time. If God is so powerful and so good, why do bad things happen?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1yv4J6ohE


----------



## jones57742

Knight~Ryder said:


> Gotta love this question that I hear all the time. If God is so powerful and so good, why do bad things happen?


KR: that feller's words are "pure dee" BS including but not limited to his assertion that education in philosophy is adverse to the understanding of the topic of discussion.

IMHO the Deity:


 helps those who help themselves;

 gave us words which we should comprehend and conform our actions to; and

 created nature and let's nature "do it's thing" even if sh.........t happens.

IMHO this feller is just preaching "h..l, fire and brimstone" relevant to our mortal existence.

TR

BTW and do no take this too adversely but your spam thread really detracts from your posts in this thread for me.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

jones57742 said:


> IMHO the Deity:
> 
> 
> helps those who help themselves;


 Then what do we "need" God for?



jones57742 said:


> gave us words which we should comprehend and conform our actions to; and


Not quite sure about this. We all can't comprehend each others speech...I don't think God is really all that hard to understand, we made it difficult.



jones57742 said:


> created nature and let's nature "do it's thing" even if sh.........t happens.


Yes, I agree.



jones57742 said:


> IMHO this feller is just preaching "h..l, fire and brimstone" relevant to our mortal existence.


Not exactly. Sure the "wrath" of God was mentioned, but listen closely how the question was changed and see where he took that question.



jones57742 said:


> BTW and do no take this too adversely but your spam thread really detracts from your posts in this thread for me.


Not sure what you mean by "spam thread" and no I don't take anything offensively on here, as I hope no one else is offended either!


----------



## Knight~Ryder

double post mistake, read above.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Source: http://www.everystudent.com/wires/Godreal.html

Is God Real?

Why the DNA structure points to God...

For many years British philosopher, Dr. Antony Flew, has been a leading spokesperson for atheism, actively involved in debate after debate. However, scientific discoveries within the last 30 years brought him to a conclusion he could not avoid. In a video interview in December 2004 he stated, "Super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature."1 Prominent in his conclusion were the discoveries of DNA. Here's why.

NA in our cells is very similar to an intricate computer program. In the photo on the left, you see that a computer program is made up of a series of ones and zeros (called binary code). The sequencing and ordering of these ones and zeros is what makes the computer program work properly.

In the same way, DNA is made up of four chemicals, abbreviated as letters A, T, G, and C. Much like the ones and zeros, these letters are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. The order in which they are arranged instructs the cell's actions.

What is amazing is that within the tiny space in every cell in your body, this code is three billion letters long!!2

To grasp the amount of DNA information in one cell, "a live reading of that code at a rate of three letters per second would take thirty-one years, even if reading continued day and night."3 Wait, there's more.

It has been determined that 99.9% of your DNA is similar to everyone's genetic makeup.4 What is uniquely you comes in the fractional difference in how those three billion letters are sequenced in your cells.

The U.S. government is able to identify everyone in our country by the arrangement of a nine-digit social security number. Yet, inside every cell in you is a three-billion-lettered DNA structure that belongs only to you. This code identifies you and continually instructs your cells' behavior.

Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project (that mapped the human DNA structure) said that one can "think of DNA as an instructional script, a software program, sitting in the nucleus of the cell."5

Perry Marshall, an information specialist, comments on the implications of this. "There has never existed a computer program that wasn't designed...[whether it is] a code, or a program, or a message given through a language, there is always an intelligent mind behind it."6

Just as former atheist Dr. Antony Flew questioned, it is legitimate to ask oneself regarding this three billion letter code instructing the cell...who wrote this script? Who placed this working code, inside the cell?

It's like walking along the beach and you see in the sand, "Mike loves Michelle." You know the waves rolling up on the beach didn't form that--a person wrote that. It is a precise message. It is clear communication. In the same way, the DNA structure is a complex, three-billion-lettered script, informing and directing the cell's process.

How can one explain this sophisticated messaging, coding, residing in our cells?

On June 26, 2000, President Clinton congratulated those who completed the human genome sequencing. President Clinton said, "Today we are learning the language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift."7 Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, followed Clinton to the podium stating, "It is humbling for me and awe inspiring to realize that we have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."8

When looking at the DNA structure within the human body, we cannot escape the presence of intelligent (incredibly intelligent) design.


----------



## alliecat420

there is no actual scientific PROOF that god exists (or for that matter ceases to exist) our species just happens to be too smart for our own good.. we just can't get over the fact that we CAN'T prove it.. so for centuries.. this discussion will continue with no right or wrong. i personally have not quite decided what i belive. i do belive in right and wrong.. when it comes to god.. the way i was raised steared me away from religion, and gave me serious doubts.. of corse i wonder how we happenedd.. but at the same time.. if everything we needed came to be (by way of big bang perhaps) then whoes to say we didnt just evolve into what we are now.. i do belive in mother nature.. nature can make life happen


----------



## guppyart

Knight~Ryder said:


> God will not intervene to prevent humanity from wreaking disastrous damage to the environment, the Archbishop of Canterbury has warned. What's your reaction to this?[/B]


and that is why the catholic church is destroying everything christains stand for.
were in the bible does it say that he won't intervene its complete BS he is making it up, just like the pope and everyone else making new rules to conform to the world.
what kind of religion sells itself out and bends the rules just so people will like it more.
If a respectable person does that generally his friends disown him and shun him for not having more self respect to hold to his morals.


also agreed with ATC and TOS its a cycle whoopy doo, been there done that got the t-shirt.
and yah the human race will most likely destroy itself before we burn to death.


----------



## alliecat420

on the subject of DNA code.. how about the fact that a bananna is %80 percent identical to a human DNA code.. why would god do that? 
why because it's nature.. religion is just answers for those who have questions.. i'm not putting down religion.. my theory is just that we created it to answer the unanswerable. because humans need closure.. and if we give an answer on "where do we come from and why are we here" naturally people will listen.


----------



## TheOldSalt

The reason most of the DNA in earth is the same is really very simple, as is he reason God "would do that" as you asked.
It works. Why go monkeying with what works? Besides, if everything on earth is supposed to be food for everything else, then everything's DNA must be compatible, lest nothing be nutritious.
Also, while the differences in the DNA between species can be considered software applications, there still has to be an operating system. Most of the DNA in every cell doesn't seem to do much of anything regarding protein synthesis, but SOMETHING is serving as the control software that drives all the functions of the cell and the "active" DNA, and I'm pretty sure that the matching DNA shared by all life on earth is indeed that biological Windows XP which has been in use since Day One.


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## jones57742

TheOldSalt said:


> but SOMETHING is serving as the control software that drives all the functions of the cell and the "active" DNA


It is my understanding that several or many links in the chain are not currently understood with respect to their function and the existence of these links would easily explain your SOMETHING.

TR


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## Againsthecurent

Baby_Baby said:


> For a man of faith, proof is not necessary. For a man of no faith, proof is not possible.


Great line!!! :grin:


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## Ice

Baby_Baby said:


> Define to me "proof".
> 
> Slow yourself for a moment and just consider for a moment that God is, in fact, real. Do you honestly think that someone who formed and shaped the earth honestly needs your approval to exist?
> 
> For a man of faith, proof is not necessary. For a man of no faith, proof is not possible.



Well put!


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## Knight~Ryder

Baby_Baby said:


> Define to me "proof".
> 
> Slow yourself for a moment and just consider for a moment that God is, in fact, real. Do you honestly think that someone who formed and shaped the earth honestly needs your approval to exist?
> 
> For a man of faith, proof is not necessary. For a man of no faith, proof is not possible.


I'll also add a little.

Man can certainly keep on lying... but he cannot make truth falsehood. He can certainly rebel... but he can accomplish nothing which abolishes the choice of God.-Karl Barth


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## Mew_chan

Wow this thread is still going I am totally amazed... and its still at the top of the OT board haha... quite amusing really... 

also just to chuck something into the fray just incase no one has mentioned it:
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
I love the way it is as valid as any other religion out there since it cannot be disproved... xD! The hate mail page is especially good


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## emc7

oh, Pastafarianism. Thats very big at Georgia Tech. Theres a really good letter out there requesting equal time in science class with "intelligent design".


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## Knight~Ryder

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Be brave enough to die of all your old opinions. Be brave enough to die of everything you identify yourself with. Let go of everything you cling to and desperately adhere to, including even your notions about God and afterlife itself. 

The reality of this life will pass away, but the reality of God will remain forever.


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## Knight~Ryder

JONES I am going to ask you a question as I am assuming you may know a bit about all this.

I just watched a History Channel Documentary on The holy family and the apostles. It is called the first days of christianity.

I found what seemed to be strange stuff in most of it. It seemed like a lot of myth was put into it. Also the Apocrypha was added in it as well which seemed strange. There was a lot of different doctrines in it that didn't sit very well with me at all, actually gave me a strange feeling. Have you seen this documentary and if not, what is all this stuff about the 12 apostles being murdered in different ways. The bible mentions nothing about this at all, and the way the documentary was laid out seemed very odd...


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## emc7

I haven't seen that one. History channel is not a good source by itself, you need to research who made the documentary. HC goes from serious war histories to UFO & ghost hunting with no distinction. Correct me if I got this wrong, but aren't most of the saints murder victims (martyrs) and all the apostles saints?


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## nhbadboy1166

Isnt this a fish forum??? If I wanted someone to preach to me id go to church ...JMO


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## Knight~Ryder

After some research....

ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE CANONICITY OF THE APOCRYPHA

# They are not, and have never been, in the Jewish canon.
# Josephus explicitly excluded them from his list.
# Philo (20 B.C.-50 A.D.) neither mentions or quotes them.
# They were never quoted or alluded to by Jesus Christ or any of the apostles. The sermons in the Book of Acts, which outline Jewish history, do not included apocryphal events.
# Jewish scholars meeting at the Council of Jabneh did not recognize them.
# Most Church Fathers in fact rejected them.
# None of the Apocrypha claim inspiration or divine authority.
# Many of the Apocryphal books contain historical, geographical, and chronological errors.
# Many of the Apocryphal books teach heresy, contrary to the Word of God.
# Their literary style is legendary and fantasy. Some stories are grotesque and demonic.
# They lack the power and distinctive elements of the Word of God.

I knew something was not quite right.... the question is then, Who really wrote these things and where did they come from?


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## TheOldSalt

Hmmm... you seem to be of the same opinion of those who wanted to be rid of them so long ago... they annoy you and make you feel uneasy, just as they did to those who excluded them.

That doesn't make them false. It damages their credibility, but if there was ever one thing humans were ever masters of, it is obscuring the truth or mention of ... inconvenient..things 

For all the errors found in them, a lot of other things have proven very plausible. I suppose it would be pretty much impossible to ever get that much stuff either all right or all wrong.


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## Knight~Ryder

TOS you do realize I'm talking about these documents:
http://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha/

While I'm sure there is lessons to be learned by some of these stories, they just don't seem to be accurate. The writing style of the authors are not the same as that in the bible itself. However, I don't want to be quick to judge. 

I did just finish watching "The apostle Paul" from the HC documentary and that was well worth it.


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## emc7

Thanks for the link. I have been told to read Thomas. There is no doubt these are early Christian writings and that early Christians argued about which writing to include in "scripture". IMO the arguments about policy make the early church more real. But as the "official" bible contradicts itself in many places I can see how adding more documents add to the confusion.


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## Knight~Ryder

I would like to point this out. I came across this while looking deeper into this issue.

Question: "What are the lost books of the Bible?"

Answer: There are no “lost books” of the Bible or books that were taken out of the Bible. There are many legends and rumors of “lost” books, but there is no truth whatsoever to these stories. Every book that God intended and inspired to be in the Bible is in the Bible. There are literally hundreds of religious books that were written in the same time period as the books of the Bible. Some of these books contain true accounts of things that actually occurred (1 Maccabees for example). Some of them contain good spiritual teaching (the Wisdom of Solomon for example). However, these books are not inspired by God. If we read any of these books, the Apocrypha as an example, we have to treat them as fallible historical books, not as the inspired, inerrant Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The gospel of Thomas, for example, was a forgery written in the 3rd or 4th century A.D., claiming to have been written by the Apostle Thomas. It was not written by Thomas. The early church fathers almost universally rejected the gospel of Thomas as being heretical. It contains many false and heretical things that Jesus supposedly said and did. None of it (or at best very little of it) is true. The Epistle of Barnabas was not written by the Biblical Barnabas, but by an imposter. The same can be said of the gospel of Philip, the apocalypse of Peter, the book of Enoch, etc.

There is one God. The Bible has one Creator. It is one book. It has one plan of grace, recorded from initiation, through execution, to consummation. From predestination to glorification, the Bible is the story of God redeeming His chosen people for the praise of His glory. As God’s redemptive purposes and plan unfold in Scripture, the recurring themes constantly emphasized are: the character of God, the judgment for sin and disobedience, the blessing for faith and obedience, the Lord Savior and sacrifice for sin, and the coming kingdom and glory. It is God’s intention that we know and understand these five themes because our lives and eternal destinies depend on them. It is therefore unthinkable that God would allow some of this vital information to be “lost” in any way. No, the Bible is complete as it is so that we who read and understand it might also be “complete, and equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).


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## shev

Here's a free book if anyone is interested in some pretty basic philosophical stuff. Nothing too far out there, it was written by the author of the Dilbert comics, and is unbiased (although I think I can tell what his personal beliefs are).

God's Debris
http://images.ucomics.com/images/pdfs/sadams/godsdebris.pdf


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## Knight~Ryder

So what's people thoughts on this?

Holographic Universe (Part 1 of 2 ) its all illusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnvM_YAwX4I

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG9FO7JGWq4

I personally like that last few minutes of the second video!

"The "holographic principle" challenges our sensibilities. It seems hard to believe that you woke up, brushed your teeth and are reading this article because of something happening on the boundary of the universe. No one knows what it would mean for us if we really do live in a hologram, yet theorists have good reasons to believe that many aspects of the holographic principle are true."

"Susskind and 't Hooft extended the insight to the universe as a whole on the basis that the cosmos has a horizon too - the boundary from beyond which light has not had time to reach us in the 13.7-billion-year lifespan of the universe."

Source http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126911.300-our-world-may-be-a-giant-hologram.html


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## emc7

Wow, you are really keeping this going, KR.


> The Bible has one Creator


 Not sure I agree with this. Lots of cooks with their spoons in this one. I could give you "inspired by God", but like other "holy books", I can't believe the human authors, editors, translators, and publishers got every exactly right. There was one printed edition that said "thou shall commit adultery", it was called the "wicked bible". 



> we have to treat them as fallible historical books, not as the inspired, inerrant Word of God


 This is how I feel about all the scriptures, even the official ones. Humans have the free will to FU anything. But I do think American should read them, even the non-believers. We need to know the words that have been influencing our history and literature for 2k years. Our ignorance is criminal.


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## shev

Here are a few sites suggesting religion is an adaptation with evolutionary benefits and reasons of why it's here.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ef=online-news
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...agination.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/24/sc...al/24CONV.html

A part relevant to the above stufff:

"
Q. Give me an example of looking at the natural history of a religion.


A. The coolest example can be seen in what the religious scholar Elaine Pagels wrote about the evolution of early Christianity. When you compare the gospels that eventually made it into the New Testament with the many competing gospels that were rejected, what you find is that those that made it in were the ones that were best as blueprints for various early Christian communities. The narrative differences in the four Gospels ? of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ? and the fact that Jesus is shown as being well received in one but practically thrown off a cliff in another, were not the result of the passage of time, or of memories fading. These Gospels were serving the needs of different Christian communities in different social environments. They're fossils of local adaptations."




As for your article KR, it just goes to show how nothing we know is for certain. I'm not saying the article is true or not, just that even our most accepted and basic of assumptions of the universe are just that, assumptions.


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## lohachata

last night i watched an interesting movie.. granted; it was just another action romance out of hollywood; but it did have an interesting twist to it..
"The Last Templar"
there are those that wish to hide truth from all others... there are those that seek the truth....and there are those that do not concern themselves wether something they are told is the truth or a lie.... they just believe what they feel in their hearts to be true... 
there is no mortal on this planet that has the right to judge another as to wether or not they practice the right religion or believe in the right or wrong god...

show me that god exists........................you cannot...............
show me that god does not exist.................you cannot...

Beki said it best......i agree..

but this thread will never end.. it shall go on and on and on... some trying to convince others that they are right and everybody else is wrong.

this is nothing new kids...we need to let others be at peace with their own faith.... god does not want you to crucify your fellow man..


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## Guest

Amen John!!!!


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## shev

lohachata said:


> there are those that wish to hide truth from all others... there are those that seek the truth....and there are those that do not concern themselves wether something they are told is the truth or a lie....


I take it you're the latter. 




lohachata said:


> but this thread will never end.. it shall go on and on and on... some trying to convince others that they are right and everybody else is wrong.
> 
> this is nothing new kids...we need to let others be at peace with their own faith.... god does not want you to crucify your fellow man..


oh, but there is new information that comes along every so often. I'm sure just a few hundred years ago many of the questions were thought of with the same logic as this, "it's too complicated, we'll never know, just stop trying to figure it out and give up, God must have done it". That is, until someone ignores them and actually DOES figure it out.

in fact, what a co-inky-dink, just this month a few new space shuttles/telescopes are going to be launched. They'll measure microwaves and infrared, two pretty important factors in the explanation of the origin of the universe.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/05/01/launch-dates/
http://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2009/02/11/pages/1393/index.xml?page=2&
^ Theory on how the universe works, and of course has string theory!

It's not even about convincing anyone of anything, at least from my point of view it isn't. It's about seeing both sides, and better understanding all the information and arguments from both sides, otherwise your decision is based on nothing, and in my eyes, that's too big of a decision to not think about...



> show me that god exists........................you cannot...............
> show me that god does not exist.................you cannot...


The whole spaghetti monster argument is based on fighting this type of logic. A lot of people had their rights taken away in the Red Scare because of this type of logic(prove you're NOT a communist, better to play it safe and throw you in jail). 

With this logic, a flying spaghetti monster is just as plausible of an explanation as your God is, just because you can't prove it doesn't exist.


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## shev

TheOldSalt said:


> As for proof, a huge glowing fist could appear in the sky over Clearwater, Florida and, in clear view of a CNN news camera team which happened to be handy for some other reason, it could slam down onto the headquarters of the Church of Scientology, smashing it to bits, while a huge voice boomed throughout the sky for miles around saying "I Am the Lord thy God, and I shall NOT be denied," and it could get broadcasted constantly on every channel for the next three days, and STILL most of the goobers in this thread and on this planet wouldn't believe it proved anything.



Came across this today and it reminded me of this post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYW_lPlekiQ

Would you hand over the keys to the starship? I'd still be skeptical in your scenario! lol
Edit: cant figure out how to embed the video.


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## Knight~Ryder

Here is the embed for you

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WYW_lPlekiQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WYW_lPlekiQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I guess that's how some people view God, and if so, well.... I guess that's how they view him allbeit a very earthly view of him, but nonetheless a view. Some need to start there to see the real picture, though this isn't a 20/20 view.


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## shev

I found the embed, and posted tha link, but it didn't work. I even tried img tags around it.


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## Knight~Ryder

I'm not sure I read a response on these 2 videos?

Care to watch these again and respond?

This is simply outstanding. You will hear words that will open your mind to possibilities.

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx3tCeagaxE
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8axGaJpj8A


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## Knight~Ryder

shev said:


> I
> in fact, what a co-inky-dink, just this month a few new space shuttles/telescopes are going to be launched. They'll measure microwaves and infrared, two pretty important factors in the explanation of the origin of the universe.
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/05/01/launch-dates/
> http://paw.princeton.edu/issues/2009/02/11/pages/1393/index.xml?page=2&
> ^ Theory on how the universe works, and of course has string theory!


So after the riddle is solved, where do we go from there? We will never know what created this universe if we just go by science. Science can explain some things, but it will never explain ALL things. We operate in the 5 senses we know, what about the ones that haven't been discovered?


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## COM

Knight~Ryder said:


> We operate in the 5 senses we know, what about the ones that haven't been discovered?


Okay, so that means that we attribute anything that we don't fully understand to 'God' until we come to understand what it really is. Therefore 'God' is only a temporary notion. And that would be a direct counter to the concept of an 'eternal' god.


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## Knight~Ryder

Came across this in my travels. I understand what these statements are getting at, but how does this help one in life?

“One can best help oneself by forgetting everything learned, read, heard, believed, imagined and in the spaciousness of unbounded awareness, in childlike wonder, all is revealed”.

One must stop looking to mind for an answer, for all that is knowable via sense perception is of mind, thus to know anything is to know nothing. But to know all is to not know a single thing. I Am


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## Knight~Ryder

Sometimes I think it's best just to take certain things at face value, not to work the brain up into a huge tizzy.


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## ron v

Ryder I appreciate this post. I haven't been on this forum for awhile so this whole thread is new to me. It just popped up as a new post so I spent a little time looking through some of it. I'm not going to get into this argument because it is never ending. I do want to say one thing and I will preface it by saying I also am a Christian. You Ryder, have been critized in this thread for "sticking your nose into other peoples business". They will say that you should mind your own business and keep your religion to yourself. Well ...God's directive to us is to go out and try to convince all non-christians to become Christians. That is what you are doing. Good for you. Maybe some who are negative in this thread will at least understand that. You are trying to help people, even if they don't realize they need help.


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## N0z

i wonder if he is realy real ? hmm


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## Fishychic

WOW. This thread is STILL going! 

There will never be a conclusion!


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## ron v

The way I see it is this... One group of folks are wrong and one group is right. If non-believers are right, we all end up in... well nothingness. If believers are right, some of us end up in a really good place and some end up in a really bad place... I would rather be a believer and be wrong than to be a nonbeliever and be wrong...


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## Knight~Ryder

I came across a book called "The Shack" just recently and the guy who wrote the book claimed to be christian. Some christians want it banned or for people to stay away from it. I read some of it so I'll post a portion from the book. I understand why some people think about it a certain way, because it takes away from eternal hell...it doesn't scare me though, I'm not one to judge. Here it is.

“So, who is it that I am supposed to judge?”
“God,” she paused, “and the human race.” She said it as if it was of no particular consequence. It simply rolled off her tongue, as if this were a daily occurrence.
Mack was dumbfounded. “You have got to be kidding!” he exclaimed.
“Why not? Surely there are many people in your world you think deserve judgment. There must be at least a few who are to blame for so much of the pain and suffering? What about the greedy who feed off the poor of the world? What about the ones who sacrifice their young children to war? What about the men who beat their wives, Mackenzie? What about the fathers who beat their sons for no reason but to assuage their own suffering? Don’t they deserve some judgment, Mackenzie?”
Mack could sense the depths of his unresolved anger rising like a flood of fury. He sank back into the chair trying to maintain his balance against an onslaught of images, but he could feel his control ebbing away. His stomach knotted as he clenched his fists, his breathing coming short and quick.
“And what about the man who preys on innocent little girls? What about him, Mackenzie? Is that man guilty? Should he be judged?”
“Yes!” screamed Mack. “Damn him to hell!”
“Is he to blame for your loss [of your daughter]?”
“Yes!”
“What about his father, the man who twisted his son into a terror, what about him?”
“Yes, him too!”
“How far do we go back, Mackenzie? This legacy of brokenness goes all the way back to Adam, what about him? But why stop there? What about God? God started this whole thing. Is God to blame?”
Mack was reeling. He didn’t feel like a judge at all, but rather the one on trial.
The woman was unrelenting. “Isn’t this where you are stuck, Mackenzie? Isn’t this what fuels [your] Great Sadness? That God cannot be trusted? Surely, a father like you can judge the Father!”
Again his anger rose like a towering flame. He wanted to lash out, but she was right and there was no point in denying it.
She continued, “Isn’t that your just complaint, Mackenzie? That God has failed you, that he failed Missy? That before the Creation, God knew that one day your Missy would be brutalized, and still he created? And then he allowed that twisted soul to snatch her from your loving arms when he had the power to stop him. Isn’t God to blame, Mackenzie?”
Mack was looking at the floor, a flurry of images pulling his emotions in every direction. Finally, he said it, louder than he intended, and pointed his finger right at her.
“Yes! God is to blame!” The accusation hung in the room as the gavel fell in his heart.
“Then,” she said with finality, “if you are able to judge God so easily, then you certainly can judge the world.” Again she spoke without emotion. “You must choose two of your children to spend eternity in God’s new heavens and new earth, but only two.”
“What?” he erupted, turning to her in disbelief.
“And you must choose three of your children to spend eternity in hell.”
Mack couldn’t believe what he was hearing and started to panic.
“Mackenzie.” Her voice now came as calm and wonderful as first he heard it. “I am only asking you to do something that you believe God does. He knows every person ever conceived, and he knows them so much deeper and clearer than you will ever know your own children. He loves each one according to his knowledge of the being of that son or daughter. You believe he will condemn most to an eternity of torment, away from His presence and apart from His love. Is that not true?”
“I suppose I do. I’ve just never thought about it like this.” He was stumbling over his words in shock. “I just assumed that somehow God could do that. Talking about hell was always sort of an abstract conversation, not about anyone that I truly…” Mack hesitated, realizing that what he was about to say would sound ugly, “not about anyone that I truly cared about.”
“So you suppose, then, that God does this easily, but you cannot? Come now, Mackenzie. Which three of your five children will you sentence to hell? Katie is struggling with you the most right now. She treats you badly and has said hurtful things to you. Perhaps she is the first and most logical choice. What about her? You are the judge, Mackenzie and you must choose.”
“I don’t want to be the judge,” he said, standing up. Mack’s mind was racing. This couldn’t be real. How could God ask him to choose among his own children? There was no way he could sentence Katie, or any of his other children, to an eternity in hell just because she had sinned against him. Even if Katie or Josh or Jon or Tyler committed some heinous crime, he still wouldn’t do it. He couldn’t! For him, it wasn’t about their performance; it was about his love for them.
“I can’t do this,” he said softly.
“You must,” she replied.
“I can’t do this,” he said louder and more vehemently.
“You must,” she said again, her voice softer.
“I…will…not…do…this!” Mack yelled, his blood boiling hot inside him.
“You must,” she whispered.
“I can’t. I can’t. I won’t!” he screamed, and now the words and emotions came tumbling out. The woman just stood watching and waiting. Finally he looked at her, pleading with his eyes. “Could I go instead? If you need someone to torture for eternity, I’ll go in their place. Would that work? Could I do that?” He fell at her feet, crying and begging now. “Please, I am begging you. Please… Please…”
“Mackenzie, Mackenzie,” she whispered, and her words came like a splash of cool water on a brutally hot day. Her hands gently touched his cheeks as she lifted him to his feet. Looking at her through blurring tears, he could see that her smile was radiant. “Now you sound like Jesus. You have judged well, Mackenzie. I am so proud of you!”
“But I haven’t judged anything,” Mack offered in confusion.
“Oh, but you have. You have judged them worthy of love, even if it cost you everything. That is how Jesus loves. And now you know God’s heart, who loves all his children perfectly.”

- passage from The Shack, written by William Young

Has anyone heard of this book?


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## Knight~Ryder

ron v said:


> The way I see it is this... One group of folks are wrong and one group is right. If non-believers are right, we all end up in... well nothingness. If believers are right, some of us end up in a really good place and some end up in a really bad place... I would rather be a believer and be wrong than to be a nonbeliever and be wrong...


We didn't come from "Nothing" so we can't go back to nothing... is it that hard for "atheists" to see?


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## TheOldSalt

That's not what he meant. He meant true oblivion, as in we perceive nothingness because we'd lose our ability to perceive anything, as in we'd not exist.

As for not coming from nothing, sure, they can see that. They simply think that we return to the same dirt from which we sprang.

It must be very comforting, being an atheist. "Knowing" that nothing matters at all, that they can do whatever they want without fear of any repercussions as long as they can get away with it in life. Yep.. must be nice. I can see where they're coming from, actually. If I were someone with a penchant for doing whatever I wanted, especially if others deemed it wrong, then yeah, I'd try very hard to convince myself that there was no real reason not to do it.
Luckily for a whole lot of people, I'm not an atheist. If I were... I'd probably be famous by now.


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## COM

I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as 'atheist.' I would say that I'm not sure if there is or isn't a supreme being or beings, and I don't really care if there is (are) or not. I guess I just don't have it in my DNA to be interested in the religion deal.

I do take considerable objection to nearly all organized religions because they all seem to have "Rules" from their "God" that really don't make any sense but must be followed blindly. Why can't I have a cheeseburger on a Friday during Lent? Jesus is already dead, so what difference does it make?

In general, I'm all for people being religious and praying to whatever if they get off on that. I just don't want it thrown in my face, and I don't want to see it trying to influence our governance and laws.


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## emc7

I'm with you, COM. Separation of church and state is the way to go. No Theocracies. Moral and legal shouldn't be the same. Laws should be enforceable and serve a specific goal related to life on earth. Do Christian believe that law-abiding sinners won't sin and go to Hell if sins are illegal? The existence of God is irrelevant to the government of the people. 

I agree, TOS, nothingness is preferable to 'just desserts'. 

Is anyone 100% certain there is no God or eternal judgement? Does even a tiny chance of eternal damnation cause people to behave better? Like the way you slow down just in case there is a cop around the next bend?


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## mrmoby

TheOldSalt said:


> That's not what he meant. He meant true oblivion, as in we perceive nothingness because we'd lose our ability to perceive anything, as in we'd not exist.
> 
> As for not coming from nothing, sure, they can see that. They simply think that we return to the same dirt from which we sprang.
> 
> It must be very comforting, being an atheist. "Knowing" that nothing matters at all, that they can do whatever they want without fear of any repercussions as long as they can get away with it in life. Yep.. must be nice. I can see where they're coming from, actually. If I were someone with a penchant for doing whatever I wanted, especially if others deemed it wrong, then yeah, I'd try very hard to convince myself that there was no real reason not to do it.
> Luckily for a whole lot of people, I'm not an atheist. If I were... I'd probably be famous by now.


I think that is a misinterperation of atheism. People are not atheists simply because they want to reason away their behavior, but because,based on their observations, or more so, what they can't observe, find the notion of a supreme being to be absurd.

I personally don't believe there is an invisible man in the sky, with a list of ten things he doesn't want me to do, watching me at every moment, yet I don't live a life of reckless abandon, just because I don't think there is any punishment for it. In fact, I feel I live a lot closer to Christian ideals more than many supposed "Christians" I know. I basically live by the principles of the ten commandments, not out of fear, but because by my conscience, seem like the right thing to do. I don't think the "do unto others" mantra has to be instilled by fear in naturally good people, it is instinctive.

And actually, let's take that line of logic a little further, people reasoning that there is no God to suit there evil deeds. That happens in Christianity. There are umpteen different denominations, because one man's sin is another mans,"awww..its no big deal" I would have to say there is more reasoning away ones behavior in Christianity than atheism.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Something I came across today and I must admit I'm not even offended at all like I used to be many years ago. I guess I let it go. Anyhow here is the picture I came across.




Now I know there are hardcore fanatics out there on both sides.

I think going out in the streets and protesting these things is kind of pointless, to me that is. I'm sure when it comes down to it we have a lot more in common then we think. All this separation really leads to more and more separation. Reaching out in love is towards one another seems to be the best answer there is.


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## ron v

He sure is taking a BIGGGG chance. I don't think I could do that even if I were not a Christian. If he's wrong, he will have to answer for that one day. Unless you are 100% absolutely positive there is ne God... why would you do that..


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## emc7

I used to think that if Jesus returned, we'd lock him up in an institution with all the other Jesuses and Napoleons. Now I think he's wander the streets barefoot (having given away any shoes he gets).


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## Knight~Ryder

Michael Jackson's REAL cause of death! [OFFICIAL] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOxSAnnoI3E


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## Knight~Ryder

Faith in atheism? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKrTK_WUiCo


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## elvis332

God is real!!!!!


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## jones57742

KR:

What exactly does MJ have relevance to this topic?

TR


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## Blue Cray

Man this was started before I quit coming here and its one reason I left religion is bull and shouldnt be pushed on people like this the starter on this topic should be slapped for trying to convert people into believing this garbage.


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## Guest

man religion ALWAYS sparks a damn controversy! i wonder if any of the MJ fans remember that he actually converted to a muslim quite some time ago.


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## Pareeeee

WOW this thread is still going!!! I'm amazed, lol. I haven't visited for ages.

God is real, Jesus is real. I'm a believer, and glad of it.


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## Pareeeee

ron v said:


> He sure is taking a BIGGGG chance. I don't think I could do that even if I were not a Christian. If he's wrong, he will have to answer for that one day. Unless you are 100% absolutely positive there is ne God... why would you do that..


 
Ya that photo's just sickening. 

I wouldn't want to be him when he comes before God some day.

But it's not just Him I fear for. The Bible tells us that _"There is none righteous__, no, not one:" _(Romans 3:10)

and that_ "all have sinned__, and come short of the glory of God;"_ (Romans 3:23) 

_"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."_ (Romans 6:23)

The good news is that God sent His Son to die on the cross as a payment for the sins we committed against Him. All we have to do is accept this gift. Realize we are sinners and accept Jesus. Thank GOD He had mercy on me and made me realize I was a sinner, I became a Christian years ago. Now I don't have to fear Hell or anything because I know God is with me and I am headed for Heaven someday.

PS:

I love these verses:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


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## Knight~Ryder

Zakk said:


> man religion ALWAYS sparks a damn controversy! i wonder if any of the MJ fans remember that he actually converted to a muslim quite some time ago.


For the most part it is believed that Michael Jackson did not officially practice any one religion devoutly, although he did explore different alternative religions throughout his life.

Michael Jackson's parents were Jehovah's Witnesses. Michael was born a Jehovah's Witness, and practiced this religion for a short period of time after his hit "Thriller" was released.

In 1987, when the Jehovah's Witnesses criticized his album, Michael Jackson announced that he was no longer a member of this religious following.

In 2007, he briefly took interest in Islam when his brother Jermaine was converting to Islam. There is speculation that Michael Jackson converted in November 2008. However, no official statement or confirmation of these rumors has ever been made, or been publicly released by him or his publicists.

For a brief period of time he wore a red string on his left wrist, a symbol of Kabbalah.

Source yahoo...

Jones I think many different avenues of conversation can belong in this thread as it all relates to one thing. God.


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## Pareeeee

huh? some people actually believe MJ was a Christian?


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## Knight~Ryder

Pareeeee said:


> huh? some people actually believe MJ was a Christian?


Guess so??

Did you know 93% of Americans are "christians"? Coulda fooled me...

I know we are saved through grace and not of works lest we should boast...

but

Our lifestyle should reflect what our faith is about. Otherwise it's just a dead label meaning nothing.


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## Superfly724

Oh goodness. Just found this post. I thought this forum would be a break from it. :lol: I'm a strong follower of Christ (I'd prefer not to put myself in a denomination. The Bible is the Bible. You either follow it, or you don't.) and I debate religion with atheists on Youtube. Honestly, it's extremely tiring. Having 12 questions from 12 different people being thrown at me and I have to respond to all of them with factual, intelligent, and most of the time, answers with Bible verses. It's actually strengthened my faith quite a bit, and now I know the arguments that atheists will use when I encounter one in person. Guess I'll be putting my 2 cents in here, too.


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## Knight~Ryder

Superfly724 said:


> Oh goodness. Just found this post. I thought this forum would be a break from it. :lol: I'm a strong follower of Christ (I'd prefer not to put myself in a denomination. The Bible is the Bible. You either follow it, or you don't.) and I debate religion with atheists on Youtube. Honestly, it's extremely tiring. Having 12 questions from 12 different people being thrown at me and I have to respond to all of them with factual, intelligent, and most of the time, answers with Bible verses. It's actually strengthened my faith quite a bit, and now I know the arguments that atheists will use when I encounter one in person. Guess I'll be putting my 2 cents in here, too.


Well superfly, this is a huge thread that will hopefully be of some benefit for you. Did you get this link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKrTK_WUiCo

I can also give you another one here that may help in your case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3678ybZWezI

Remember whenever your dealing with people on this subject, never force anything. Just let it come naturally. I myself have no intention on forcing anything, or trying in my human nature to try and get people to change. I am just here to love people as they are. If other people choose to warn people that is up to them. Remember it's a personal walk with God as we all go through this place called "life"


----------



## COM

Knight~Ryder;221104Did you know 93% of Americans are "christians"? [/QUOTE said:


> Really? Not necessarily disputing you but do you have a source for that? I seem to think that I have heard a rabbi say that 8% of Americans were Jewish and that a similar number identified as muslim. That leaves 84%. I know that I have read articles that use figures that say that 20% of Americans dont believe in any sort of 'higher being' too.
> 
> Getting 93% of a large group of people to agree on anything is pretty dang impossible.
> 
> Maybe 93% of Canadians are 'Christian.' That would sound plausible since Canada is such a small country in terms of population, it is overwhelmingly white and of European descent.


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## Knight~Ryder

COM said:


> Really? Not necessarily disputing you but do you have a source for that? I seem to think that I have heard a rabbi say that 8% of Americans were Jewish and that a similar number identified as muslim. That leaves 84%. I know that I have read articles that use figures that say that 20% of Americans dont believe in any sort of 'higher being' too.
> 
> Getting 93% of a large group of people to agree on anything is pretty dang impossible.
> 
> Maybe 93% of Canadians are 'Christian.' That would sound plausible since Canada is such a small country in terms of population, it is overwhelmingly white and of European descent.


Sorry, I must have misheard someone then...I'll look into it. In the meantime I came across this.

Christian statistics: The following list shows the countries with the largest numbers of Christians. Christianity, as defined for the purpose of census and surveys, includes all those who claim to be Christian. This includes varying degrees of religious activity, from essentially non-participating but still-nominal Christians to active full-communicants and life-long clergy. These numbers also include adherents of different divisions within Christianity, including Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter-day Saints, African Indigenous Churches and others.


Top 10 Largest National Christian Populations
Rank Nation Number Percent 
1 USA 224,457,000 85% 
2 Brazil 139,000,000 93% 
3 Mexico 86,120,000 99% 
4 Russia 80,000,000 60% 
5 China 70,000,000 5.7% 
6 Germany 67,000,000 83% 
7 Philippines 63,470,000 93% 
8 United Kingdom 51,060,000 88% 
9 Italy 47,690,000 90% 
10 France 44,150,000 98% 
11 Nigeria 38,180,000 45% 

Funny....this world doesn't seem any more better off. This is why serving God needs to be more then just a "tradition"


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## Knight~Ryder

I would like for you to watch this video. It's about 4 minutes, but will shed some light on our day to day activities we do. Trust me, it's really a good video to see where we stand in our lives. The message is very true in this day in age that we live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm-mW9tPX-A


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## COM

Note on those percentages above - those are the percent of people who consider themselves actively religious. They don't include the chunk of folks like me who claim no affiliation whatsoever. (I was intrigued and did some digging myself)


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## Tallonebball

Haha I think its funny japan has 70,000,000 and its only 5.7% of their population and Russia has 80,000,000 and its 63% percent of theirs, japan has a lot of people haha 
I haven't seen one person "force" religion on anybody in this thread, its the people so uptight about their hate for religion who take any speak on religion and act like its getting forced on them just to make it look bad, if you don't want to get hit by a car, then why jump in front? aka if you don't want to feel like religion is getting forced on you then why read this post?
Its just stupid when people get on here and instead of having a intelligent conversation with intelligent people they get on and say some garbage, about how religion is being forced on them, that has nothing to do with anything. Quit the whining and say something with some meaning or say nothing at all seriously. Crap like that makes me mad. 
Oh and I'm a methodist christian and even though I don't necessarily believe the "proof" stated in the post, I do believe in god. I don't feel like god needs to prove anything lol


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## Knight~Ryder

The stuff people say in here doesn't even make me mad anymore. It used to when I was younger, and more innocent. 

I am so strong in what I know to be true that I won't falter or fail because someone comes in here with rediculous statements or accuse me of something that I'm really not doing. It's easier to just look right past it and move on. 

We all get mad for a reason when we think were being attacked, but once we realize that we don't even need to feel that in the first place, then we can move on in peace.

You did make some good points though!! Yes, people clicked on here for a reason, read it for a reason, and ultimately replied for a reason. Too bad the ones who felt like they needed to hate just left it be.

Overall this thread as gone very well, and love to see people reply with their views and/or faith. For me, I know the truth and the truth set me free, but I can't speak for others. So they need to speak out. haha


----------



## Sea-Agg2009

Knight~Ryder said:


> The stuff people say in here doesn't even make me mad anymore. It used to when I was younger, and more innocent.
> 
> I am so strong in what I know to be true that I won't falter or fail because someone comes in here with rediculous statements or accuse me of something that I'm really not doing. It's easier to just look right past it and move on.
> 
> We all get mad for a reason when we think were being attacked, but once we realize that we don't even need to feel that in the first place, then we can move on in peace.
> 
> You did make some good points though!! Yes, people clicked on here for a reason, read it for a reason, and ultimately replied for a reason. Too bad the ones who felt like they needed to hate just left it be.
> 
> Overall this thread as gone very well, and love to see people reply with their views and/or faith. For me, I know the truth and the truth set me free, but I can't speak for others. So they need to speak out. haha


 = I was wrong... It's ok to say it from time to time. Don't just stick your fingers in your ears and sing real loud.

I was raised catholic, and very conservatively, and I just don't choose to live like that anymore. The fact is everyone is suppose to be following the same teaching by the same person, whether you are christian, jewish, or muslim. Even just amongst the christian sect, how can you justify the VAST differences in ideology, not just practice. People are simply willing to believe and practice their belief up to the point that it is convenient to them. That is the truth. 
How can you justify letting a child starve and bear the burden of disease simply because we can't let people use birth control? Or how can you say that a child conceived via test tube has a "tainted soul", and will never make it into heaven? You will say that not all people believe that, which proves my point. What makes your version right, and theirs wrong, and why does it really matter?
I am not christian, nor atheist, nor agnostic... I simply don't care. Morality doesn't have a different set of guidelines depending on your faith. I live a good life, and that should be enough. If a rapist or thief gets into heaven because they went to church on Sunday and gave money to the church, then I don't want to be a part of that. At the same time, if a person doesn't get into heaven because they didn't go to the right services, and didn't donate "to the faith", then I don't want to be a part of that either. I will sit outside the gates of heaven with Gandhi and the other non-christians and await my punishment for my crimes. 


You evolved from a monkey...


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## Knight~Ryder

So are you saying there is no right or wrong. How do we define right and wrong. Society now knows no boundries, and are confused. No where to turn.

What do we give them?

A world gov't.....


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## Knight~Ryder

http://www.thetheoryofeverything.com/

Trailor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPdw7ph4vHM

Does God exist? Does science prove His existence or give us reason to doubt?

Doug Holloway (David de Vos), a family man on the verge of financial and marital ruin, embarks on a journey to find his birth father, Dr. Eugene Holland (Victor Lundin). Dr. Holland is on a mission of his own – to prove the Holy Grail of physics – the Theory of Everything – that may prove the existence of God. His greatest challenge? Completing his quest before a degenerative brain disease (CJD) claims his ability to reason. Soon the two journeys become one as the men struggle together to rebuild their family and find new hope in God.

A moving story of family, faith and theoretical physics, The Theory of Everything will inspire you to "Envision the Possibilities."


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## Sea-Agg2009

Knight~Ryder said:


> So are you saying there is no right or wrong. How do we define right and wrong. Society now knows no boundries, and are confused. No where to turn.
> 
> What do we give them?
> 
> A world gov't.....


Right and wrong is not defined by the bible, nor by god.

And that video.... Christian Cinema.Com Home Entertainment. Totally reputable, without any bias I'm sure.


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## Knight~Ryder

If this makes you feel more better, here.

The God Particle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fg16j5hbvY


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## COM

Okay, a couple of things about the LHC @ CERN and the whole 'God Particle' or, properly Higgs boson:
1- The LHC doesn't even work. It work for like a few days, kinda, and then has been delayed and delayed
2- The idea of 'God Particle' is yet another example of using the 'God' concept to explain away anything that science cannot yet explain. 200 years ago humans had little understanding of why eating food made us live. At some point we figured out metabolism, ATP, mitochondria, and the like, so we no longer imagine that some divine being has anything to do with it.


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## Sea-Agg2009

I fail to see how anything about the Higgs particle applies to God. If anything the concept of the Higgs essentially removes God from the picture, being the origin mass, and in that being the unifying force in the universe. 

To further Com's point, I will add a few more examples. 
The Greeks, who were considered incredibly intelligent and advanced, believed there were only 5 elements in the world: earth, wind, fire, water, and Aether. I'm glad no one said, "Well they were smart, let's just go with what they had...". 
Until very recently on the human timescale, we believed the earth was the center of the universe, and I think someone was excommunicated because they suggested otherwise...(!!!) Let's also not forget about the whole earth is flat thing...

Best video ever... God Warrior!


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## Knight~Ryder

Seen that video and the episode on T.V actually. She seems like the one tampering in all the stuff she stated. Wow, that lady is living in massive fear. You can't live that way for very long.

Knowledge isn't everything in this life. It's a part, but there are so many other factors that come in to play when living on this earth.


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## mrmoby

COM said:


> Okay, a couple of things about the LHC @ CERN and the whole 'God Particle' or, properly Higgs boson:
> 1- The LHC doesn't even work. It work for like a few days, kinda, and then has been delayed and delayed
> 2- The idea of 'God Particle' is yet another example of using the 'God' concept to explain away anything that science cannot yet explain. 200 years ago humans had little understanding of why eating food made us live. At some point we figured out metabolism, ATP, mitochondria, and the like, so we no longer imagine that some divine being has anything to do with it.


I like the food example. It would almost seem that some see it easier to swallow the explanation of "god" rather than admit something is beyond their comprehension. A dog doesn't have the ability to understand the electronics in our computers, or even the can opening mechanism that helps deliver its food, so does that make us gods, or does it mean a dog simply doesnt have the brain structure to ever comprehend these things?

There seems to be a theme common amongst those who subscribe to the god "theory", which is that knowledge isn't everything, or is dangerous, or that god simply doesn't want us to know. I think it is no coincidence that the earliest story in the bible referencing people, is Adam and Eve, eating from the Tree of Knowledge. I realize in biblical speak, the tree is more symoblic of perfection(or lack thereof) but I find the name fitting, as it seems the religous always warn of wanting to know too much. What is it they are afraid of finding?


----------



## COM

mrmoby said:


> There seems to be a theme common amongst those who subscribe to the god "theory", which is that knowledge isn't everything, or is dangerous, or that god simply doesn't want us to know. I think it is no coincidence that the earliest story in the bible referencing people, is Adam and Eve, eating from the Tree of Knowledge. I realize in biblical speak, the tree is more symoblic of perfection(or lack thereof) but I find the name fitting, as it seems the religous always warn of wanting to know too much. What is it they are afraid of finding?


That's right! Adam and Eve were naked and ignorant, but blissful. Once they take on the challenge of knowledge, they set off on an endless quest to gain knowledge. To me, this proves that knowledge is absolutely everything. We are here to learn about the world. Those who discredit the pursuit of knowledge are probably just too lazy to go and do it.


----------



## Knight~Ryder

COM said:


> Those who discredit the pursuit of knowledge are probably just too lazy to go and do it.


Do you continually like to beat your head against the wall? :chair:

I sure don't.

There is only so much one can learn in a lifetime ya know.


----------



## Tallonebball

Im trying to figure out why there has to be one side to every coin. It either Knowledge or God Right? ..Wrong. 
Im a methodist Christian, I'm not saying I have ever read even close to the whole bible, nor do I go to church every sunday. All I know is I do believe in God and isn't that really the whole point in christianity? To spread the word, live by good morals, and believe. 
Where in the bible does it say knowledge is bad?
Why can't it be that God has made everything, and made it so knowledge of things is achievable as opposed to just making humans with absolute knowledge of everything therefore, in my opinion, making life useless. If we know all whats the point in living? Why would go even start us off as children? If he didn't want us to learn then we would be born adults with ultimate knowledge.
The fact is, science can't disprove religion, religion can't disprove science because in my opinion, they are both one. 
I don't see how the ignorance of a culture or an animal disproves religion. Just because people used religion to fill voids in their knowledge means nothing at all. In reality, most scientific breakthroughs back in the enlightenment we backed by the churches, not shunned. The some of things that people didn't understand then, they still don't understand now, because it the chicken and the egg, something started everything, but something had to have made the thing that started everything, and something that to make that thing that made the thing that made everything.. etc. Its never ending.
Believe what you want to believe but the fact is, no one is ever gone to know how all this really happened, until they die and either turn into dirt, are reborn as another, or end up in heaven/hell.
I hope to end up in heaven.
I also believe that believing in god is pretty much like believing in something beyond your comprehension, its not an excuse, its a belief, you don't think there are any inventors or scientists that believe in god? I bet your wrong.


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## Superfly724

A couple things I've noticed. If you don't believe in God, you're an atheist. End of story. There's no way to not be an atheist if you don't believe in any form of God. Because the word atheist simply means someone who is not a theist, basically meaning you believe in no deity.

Also, the whole point of Christianity is being missed. It's not about the right services or giving the right amounts of money or giving money at all for that matter. Christianity is the ONE religion that is not based off of works. It's based off of faith. I won't lie. A lot of modern day churches are corrupt and I can understand where you can get that picture. If you ask me, the Bible is the Bible. Sure there are some things that arn't important like whether or not dancing is okay, but the larger topics arn't debatable and there is no preference. You can't pick and choose out of the Bible and anyone who does is simply being ignorant. 

I could go on for a while, but I'll leave it at this for now.


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## Toshogu

didn't bother watching vids, didn't bother reading posts. here is 2 cents.

Proof of God's existance is available every single day. Science illuminates his works for us. Religion teaches us his word. 

Personally I just don't understand people who can't accept science. God made us in his image, and holds us above all others. How I see it then is he brought around our being so that way we can figuere out how he made everything, and eventually follow in his footsteps.

The bible and other holy texts.. given from god to man, proccessed through our little brains and then written down by the hand of man. There is gonna be alot of things lost in translation, and also gonna be some stuff added because of artistic license. Just have to read it and find the grains of truth that are scattered through out the texts.

Creationists. There is a special place in hell for creationists (same place that pedophiles and arsonists go) for those who have closed thier minds and thier hearts to the works of God, and are doing thier best to destroy and pollute his glory.

Idolatry seems to be rampant amongst alot of the major religions.
"you shall have no other gods besides Me ... you shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above or on the earth below ... you shall not bow down to them or serve them"
Seriously sit down and think about that one if you're the religious type. For me personally I've always thought crosses, and Jesus statues, or Jesus on a cross statues, or Mother mary statues, smacked way to much of idolatry for my likes.

kk, breakfast time. =)


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## Toshogu

Knight~Ryder said:


> Do you continually like to beat your head against the wall? :chair:
> 
> I sure don't.
> 
> There is only so much one can learn in a lifetime ya know.


That is why we invented writting and books. That way knowledge can be passed down through the generations and never be lost.

I have very little patience for those that prefer to wallow in thier own ignorance.


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## Toshogu

Oh Scientologists are absolute Roflshism. Thems is not a religion just a networking/money making cult that brainwash the stupid and or gullible. Sokugakai International also falls under this catagory.

I'm sure someone has said this before, but I'll take credit for it "God helps those that help themselves" wait.. just googled it - Ben Franklin (no wonder I like that phrase so much, Ben is a hero of mine)


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Tallonebball said:


> Where in the bible does it say knowledge is bad?


It doesn't.
It actually says:

My people perish for lack of knowledge
Hosea 4:6 

Your right on the money there!


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Don’t worry about the darkness
Or envy those who do wrong

Like vapor it will fade away
Then the wicked will be gone

Continue to trust in the LORD
Do what you know to be right

Soon you’ll live in the Land
Where all will be in His Light

Commit your life to the LORD
Let Him free you from all sin

Receive Him in deepest love
Let the transformation begin


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Toshogu said:


> Creationists. There is a special place in hell for creationists (same place that pedophiles and arsonists go) for those who have closed thier minds and thier hearts to the works of God, and are doing thier best to destroy and pollute his glory.


What do you mean by this?


----------



## Knight~Ryder

Rational Response Debate with Kirk Cameron pt.3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ImQruoZ7VU

Kirk Cameron's opening statements of why he is no longer an Atheist 

As you all might remember Kirk used to be on a show called CHEERS.


----------



## COM

He was actually on _Growing Pains_, not _Cheers_.

Why is this failed actor credible in the god debate?


----------



## Sea-Agg2009

I agree with Com. Seems to me like he lost his popularity, so he's looking for someone who will give him the attention those spoiled child actors need. And his story about how he found god... he was thinking about something other than himself, probably for the first time in his life.


----------



## Toshogu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toshogu 
Creationists. There is a special place in hell for creationists (same place that pedophiles and arsonists go) for those who have closed thier minds and thier hearts to the works of God, and are doing thier best to destroy and pollute his glory. 

What do you mean by this?

I mean exactly what I wrote. Nothing more, nothing less. Explaining how I come to this conclusion is hard to be consice but I will try.

God all powerfull, all knowing, supreme being. the ultimate truth. To look/feel/hear him in his full glory is instant death, or insanity for us humans. This also applies to his minions the seraphim, and the cherubs, and other celestial beings that he created.

So one day God decides that it is time for man to recieve some truth. He either sends an angel, or manifests himself to pass on his word. We can not recieve the full truth, or he ends up burning us out. Then this watered down truth gets proccessed through a humans brain, and then eventually written down. No man is perfect so there are going to be errors, expansion, edits what not. And so what we get in the end is Truth as seen by man several thousand years ago, a text that we call "The Bible" And through the years it gets copied, translated through dozems of languages, and edited. Chapters go missing, chapters are added.. etc etc. Also not all men that handled this sacred document were seekers of truth. Some had adjenda's whether they be political or ideological, so the truth got watered down some more. So in the end what we have in the "Bible" is a document that contains some truths. You just have to sift through it until you find it. Some of it hits you in the face like the 10 commandments, that's truth. Other stuff gets your head scratching, or you have to really dig for it.

Either way, Science the seeking of truth! Through out human history we have searched for the truth within us, and around us. In it's earliest form we attributed everything to God, cause that is all of the truth that we can understand. As we got better at it we began peeling away these layers of truth. For example, Diseases most all were attributed to God's disfavor. Through Science we know the causes and how to prevent them. Does this take away from God? No. It was he who set down the rules and mechanisms that our universe runs on. E=mc2, Evolution, Genetics, Thermal Dynamics, Quantum Theory, Weak force, Strong Force, these are all mechanics that God set down in the begining. Some of it we understand pretty well, some of it we are still trying to figuere out. But no matter how you cut it, these things are God's Truth. Through Science we have discovered actual truths within the Bible. We know Science the name of the pharoh, and when the plagues hit Egypt. Before I believed Moses existed, with these discoveries I know Moses existed. Does me believing vs knowing the existance of Moses change the Truth that is the Ten Commandments? No. It's hard to explain but I hope you can see where I'm going here.

Now for Creationists who believe in the 'Literal Truth' of the "Bible".

1.) God is every where, God is truth.
2.) Science is the search for truth.
3.) Evolution is God's truth.

Creationists are putting a lie to Gods work, telling me that the Bible is the complete and unadulterated truth. That the world is only X years old and that everything just popped up through inteligent design. When we know for a fact(truth) that the earth and universe are far older than what it is said to be in the Bible. Then they want to take thier lies and they want to make sure it is taught to children in school. Not just thier children, but everybodies children. They want to take thier lies and force it upon the rest of us. They deny the truth that is right smack dab infront of them, because they think God is such a small and weak thing. By denying Science, they deny God. And by denying God and trying to force thier really flawed belief on others, they are trying to undo the spread of God's truth.

That's why Creationists have a special place in hell with arsonists and pedophiles.


----------



## Sea-Agg2009

@Tosh:
This is the fundamental problem with christianity. The catholic church, who is the original church, has said from the beginning what you are saying. That the bible is a group of stories put together to teach. This I do agree with. This idea allows the church to adapt their teachings with the changing times. This to me is essential because if not we would still be hearing that the world is flat and the earth is the center of the universe. Of course people tend to forget this fact when the next group preaches about the literal word of god.

The second group is the "Born again" or evangelist christians, who believe that the Bible is the direct word of god. You will find that their "version" of the bible has red sections, which means it comes directly from god himself. Of course the ironic part is that they themselves choose which parts come directly from god. Apparently the world is 6 thousand years old (approximately of course), because it is what god told them. On the other hand, these people will admit the earth is round, which was not revealed until the 15th century.

With this said I agree with you tosh, science is the seeking of truth. It isn't right all the time, but at least they are trying. One of the arguments made by radical christians is that science actually doesn't prove anything. This is true, because the process is about showing what cannot be true. There is always a possibility that some bit of information will come along later and change things. That is why even the most sound concepts, that have been tested over and over, like GRAVITY, are still called a theory. The fact is that science often leaves people saying "I don't know", which leaves people feeling uncertain about their very existence. Some people cannot handle this uncertainty, and have a need for a purpose. The concept of god and the teachings of the christian groups gives people a sense of meaning and hope. If these people need that, then so be it.


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## Blue Cray

I cant beleive this stupid thread is still going seeing it has no place on the public forum. I hate when religion is pushed on people. I'm requesting a locck on this stupid thread.


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## Tallonebball

Why do you let this thread even bother you cray?? Its not like we are standing there making you click on the thread and read it, calm down seriously.
I don't know why a thread about something that all of us have an opinion about doesn't belong on a PUBLIC forum, this is the section where you talk about anything not fish related, seems like this is the perfect place for this thread. 
Stop whining and get a grip, no one is forcing anything on you.


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## Blue Cray

I wasnt getting mad learn to read I was expressing my opinion next time maybe think before you speak....


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## <3~Pleco~<3

someones got some attitude....


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## Tallonebball

Haha bring it blue cray, I never said you were mad, maybe you should learn to read.
I just expressed that no one is making you read this so stop asking like its being pushed on you, which you have said twice, because its not being pushed on you. You chose to click on the thread.


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## mrmoby

Cray, if you don't like the topic, don't read the thread. It is really that easy.

This thread has gone on for months, and has remained remarkably civil, and there is no reason why it shouldn't be here.


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## Toshogu

Exactly Sea-Agg, you understand. Science for me is the search for God in our universe, and in ourselfs. The Bible contains some of his truths, it is a guide to be a good person. And as we have been created in his image, as our understanding of the world grows, our understanding of his word gets better, we become closer to becoming like him our father. Maybe someday we will be able to follow in his footsteps.


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## Knight~Ryder

Toshogu said:


> Exactly Sea-Agg, you understand. Science for me is the search for God in our universe, and in ourselfs. The Bible contains some of his truths, it is a guide to be a good person. And as we have been created in his image, as our understanding of the world grows, our understanding of his word gets better, we become closer to becoming like him our father. Maybe someday we will be able to follow in his footsteps.


Without God's truth *toshogu* we wouldn't have what we know today. Without the bible and the TRUTH there, we wouldn't have that as a guide. Of course God speaks to us, but we always complicate things so much as humans.

_"The concept of god and the teachings of the christian groups gives people a sense of meaning and hope."_

Maybe for some *See-Agg*, but for me it is a relationship. Sure I see how religion gives people a meaning in their community or a blanket or some other socialist agenda. I do not use it as that as it would not be truth to me. This is a personal relationship I have. 

*Blue cray* it seems you have been watching this topic and there is something about it erking you. Sometimes in life we get a real thinking change, or something hits us and turns us 360 degrees. 

Questioning isn't the reality of God, yet it is used. 
Feel free to question what you know, don't be scared.  Better to question it now then wait 40 years and question it then. Wouldn't that be suffering if you just have to come face to face with it later? 

Something extra: Music Video - BODY OF DEATH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgEk1IRBymc

My boy flame doing it big in Minnie!!!!! Look at the amount of people that came out to hear HOLY HIP HOP! What a blessing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgEk1IRBymc


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## Sea-Agg2009

Knight~Ryder said:


> Without God's truth *toshogu* we wouldn't have what we know today. Without the bible and the TRUTH there, we wouldn't have that as a guide. Of course God speaks to us, but we always complicate things so much as humans.


Example for the latter groups I described before. 

I will say this. God tells me to look for answers. I have this feeling that I am suppose to search for clues to the truth. How is that any different than those who are "told" what their truth is? 

If you are so sure of your truth, then let science pursue it, and eventually we will come to the same conclusion. Otherwise it just appears as though you are hiding something.


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## Knight~Ryder

Sea-Agg2009 said:


> Example for the latter groups I described before.
> 
> I will say this. God tells me to look for answers. I have this feeling that I am suppose to search for clues to the truth. How is that any different than those who are "told" what their truth is?
> 
> If you are so sure of your truth, then let science pursue it, and eventually we will come to the same conclusion. Otherwise it just appears as though you are hiding something.


I have no problem letting science pursue it, but whatever science is trying to prove won't help at all either. If God's kingdom is not of this world, how do you think it is to be found? With mans so called creations? 

*Jesus said himself here

"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.

"You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

"I do not accept praise from men, but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?

"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"*


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## Toshogu

Question is, how accurate these words in the Bible are. Are these jesus' original words translated from hebrew? Or has some scholar/scholars over time twisted them to fit thier own agenda? We know through some of the documents found, and analysis that the oldest version of the bible we found had 4 different scholars that worked on it. i'm not sure but I think we know the name of atleast one of em. The other three are still lost to us.

Friend is over will be back to finish this


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## Knight~Ryder

Sea-Agg2009 said:


> I agree with Com. Seems to me like he lost his popularity, so he's looking for someone who will give him the attention those spoiled child actors need. And his story about how he found god... he was thinking about something other than himself, probably for the first time in his life.


Wow, quite the judgement.


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## Toshogu

I forgot what the heck I was going to say =P Either way, watched Inglorious Bastards.. only thing I can say is that it is a "spectacle"


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## emc7

Hm, seems like the thread has eternal life. Has anyone but KR read it all?


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## Guest

Toshogu said:


> Question is, how accurate these words in the Bible are. Are these jesus' original words translated from hebrew? Or has some scholar/scholars over time twisted them to fit thier own agenda? We know through some of the documents found, and analysis that the oldest version of the bible we found had 4 different scholars that worked on it. i'm not sure but I think we know the name of atleast one of em. The other three are still lost to us.
> 
> Friend is over will be back to finish this


Actually, there is SOME truth in the bible. historical facts point to a Constantine, who by the way was a heathen, "put" together the very 1st bible, editing what he didnt like from the parchments gathered from all over the world, which again, were not written by Christ himself or his direct disciples but the disciple's disciple's disciples. Aramic was the language spoken by christ. Christ himself as his followers were uneducated people and knew nothing of written languages. the parchements found were in hebrew. Chinese Whisper is an AWESOME activity to prove what was said is not what is written at the end. why does this have to be an exception? why cant a 2nd generation disciple misconstrue what he heard from the original disciple and passed that down to his discples and so on and so forth?

Constantine intened to create an order amongst the growing number of Christ's followers and believers. yes, in the folowing years, new parchments were found, some were added to the bible and some were not. if this isnt the "watered down" version of the whole truth, what is? if its not the whole truth, then it is a lie. if the bible was created by man and a heathen at that, and the church as an entity to control people, where is the religion in it? this falls nothing short of dictatorship.

personally, i dont belive in the bible, the church or priests and stay the hell away from the "devout" christian sects. sheer maddness is what it is. i do belive in the Lord and in the supreme being. nothing more. nothing less.


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## Knight~Ryder

Zakk said:


> Actually, there is SOME truth in the bible. historical facts point to a Constantine, who by the way was a heathen, "put" together the very 1st bible,


No.

The original language documents have not changed. The Dead Sea Scrolls helped prove this. The scrolls testify to the accuracy of the people who copied and recopied the Scriptures over the centuries. Despite minor errors, they show us that the Bible has not changed since the first and second centuries.

Actually, this is untrue. On the contrary to what the da vinci code may have you believe... Scholars believe that the vast majority of the new testament was recognized by the church as authoritative, as early as the first century. 4/5's of the new testament was already agreed upon before constantine, the last fifth of it was put together during constantines era, but not because of political pressure, but because christians could more safetly come together.

Constantine did not choose which books went into the new testament, because they were already agreed on by the churches over a large period of time, as apposed to one moment (constantine choosing which goes in and which does not). 

Source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_Constantine_remove_things_from_the_Bible


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## Knight~Ryder

emc7 said:


> Hm, seems like the thread has eternal life. Has anyone but KR read it all?


:lol:


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## Toshogu

Yes there are many scientifically verifiable truths in the Bible. But there are also misprints, mistranslations, political tampering... etc. etc. Trick is read it a couple of dozens of times, until you figuere out "The Truth" It's scattered all over the place a line here, a paragraph there. Essentially saying "Be good to one another, be good to oneself". That's all the God has ever tried to teach us, we're just not that good at remembering that.


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## Knight~Ryder

Toshogu you are forgetting a few very important things!

I'll just give you one. 

Jesus resurrected on the third day defeating death! Do I need to go into this further? I know back many pages on this thread this was discussed.

So no, the bible is not the same as every other book written. I do remember jones saying it gets real simple quickly. Either you believe that Jesus was resurrected or you don't.

By the way Jones where have you been lately?


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## Knight~Ryder

The meaning of life constitutes a philosophical question concerning the purpose and significance of human existence. This concept can be expressed through a variety of related questions, such as Why are we here?, What's life all about? and What is the meaning of it all? It has been the subject of much philosophical, scientific, and theological speculation throughout history. There have been a large number of answers to these questions from many different cultural and ideological backgrounds. Albert Camus observed, we humans are creatures who spend our lives trying to convince ourselves that our existence is not absurd. [1]

The meaning of life is deeply mixed with the philosophical and religious conceptions of existence, consciousness, and happiness, and touches on many other issues, such as symbolic meaning, ontology, value, purpose, ethics, good and evil, free will, conceptions of God, the existence of God, the soul, and the afterlife. Scientific contributions are more indirect; by describing the empirical facts about the universe, science provides some context and sets parameters for conversations on related topics. An alternative, human-centric, and not a cosmic/religious approach is the question "What is the meaning of my life?" The value of the question pertaining to the purpose of life may be considered to be coincidal with the achievement of ultimate reality, if that is believed by one to exist.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life

Have fun reading the whole page...


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## Knight~Ryder

:lol:


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## Toshogu

Jesus' resurection is only a factor in determining if you are a Christian.

And I never said the bible is just another book. God's influence is in those pages. You just have to sift through the muck to find it.


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## Toshogu

Personally I find the worship of Jesus, Saints and the cross very close to bordering on idolitry. "There shall be no others before me"

Am I a christian. no
Am I a jew. no
Am I muslim. no

But do I believe in God. yes.


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## mrmoby

Knight~Ryder said:


> :lol:



Cool!!!! Finally some peace and quiet!


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## COM

^^ My sentiments exactly.


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## Knight~Ryder

Toshogu said:


> Personally I find the worship of Jesus, Saints and the cross very close to bordering on idolitry. "There shall be no others before me"


I gotta throw this in. I know people don't like scripture to back everything up, but in this case it's needed. I could throw in a million versus but this is fine. I don't worship the saints or the cross or any human for that matter. Sure there are great Godly people, but not God them self. Sure the cross is a huge part of my faith but not something I worship or is it the end. I don't find myself looking towards the cross, I find myself looking back and seeing where I am now as Jesus was ressurrected. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. God's one and only son. Yes we are God's sons and daughters but now how Jesus was as he was God manifest in the flesh for us. Take a look.

*The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.*


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## Knight~Ryder

What is STEVE HARVEY the well known comedian up to these days?

I was a bit shocked to see this from Steve.

--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXmSHVoi7rI


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## Knight~Ryder

The so called missing books of the bible sound like they come from different writers other then Jesus followers. I read some of it and it's doctrines are quite strange then that of the bible. 

I don't think anyone will really know where they came from.


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## turttleboy

well I have to say one thing I dont have 4 days to read and understand all of the posts but here we go and heres what I have to say. this debate will continue forever on this thread until you guys get bored. and eventually you will repeat yourself. these threads prove nothing but points of view's of other people and I respect those points of view's. its an ongoing proses. I am catholic and my siblings are catholic. but my dad isnt. and in all of these years we've had these discussions and they never end. he respects my view and I respect his. BUT OVER ALL BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT.

thanks ieatflys


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## turttleboy

oh and Toshogu I kinda understand what u mean. its somewhat how I feel


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## emc7

I argued for awhile, just because I like arguing and because I have to dispute the "Proof" claim. Apparently, my standards of proof are higher than most. But I stopped reading awhile back. 2,000 year old eye-witness accounts don't move me. People lie, people have always lied. I won't sit still and read long enough for anyone to finally convince me of anything. 

I respect those who want to change minds and hearts with words and by good deeds. I have been helped on the side of the road twice now by people who wanted nothing more in exchange than that I listen a little.

Congratulations on the adorable livebearer fry, KR. 

I will say that its hard not to believe in something when holding a newborn. I believe, that regardless of what you believe, we should all strive to make this world a little better for the children that come after us.


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## Knight~Ryder

Ditzy said:


> i just go by my own rules,


If we all went by our own rules this world would be chaotic.
Wait...it already is.

None of us actually makes any rules. We only think we do. We are all controlled to a certain degree. Some more then others.

But everything we learn we get from others passed on. Make our own rules. Hardly.



emc7 said:


> Congratulations on the adorable livebearer fry, KR.
> 
> I will say that its hard not to believe in something when holding a newborn. I believe, that regardless of what you believe, we should all strive to make this world a little better for the children that come after us.


Livebearer fry. :lol:

Thank you. It's really an amazing feeling. I can't even describe it.


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## Guest

Do you know how I know that God isn't real?

It can be answered with this simple question:
Why do men have nipples?


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## daniel89

Knight~Ryder said:


> If we all went by our own rules this world would be chaotic.
> Wait...it already is.
> 
> None of us actually makes any rules. We only think we do. We are all controlled to a certain degree. Some more then others.
> 
> But everything we learn we get from others passed on. Make our own rules. Hardly.


Highly Agreed with. Why? We choose certain things from people we know or respect or even love and those things we choose to listen to or like about that person We typically enforce it into our own lives. Therefor making us think we live by our own rules when in fact we are just living how all the ones we know and respect and love but just bits and parts from each of those people.

Step back from your life and think about how sometimes you do or follow by your rule that other people you know do. Then try to think of one "rule" that you know none of your friends or people you know that don't follow.

We are influenced so much by the ones we know and love that it clouds our judgment to make our own choices at times and we then live or accept things to their rules through daily influence and until we unknowingly get brain washed basically. Therefor making it so we don't make our own rules.

I've experienced this and have seen it happen to lots of friends with boyfriends and girlfriends and I'm sure as much as you have.
When they are with you and away from those who influence them they are perfectly fine. But as soon as they are with those who influence them they begin to point out such little things and make them look so big and rag the person you made a decision on to the point of the person second doubting there decision they made to be with that person. Which then when the littlest thing that could happen wrong would then lead to a argument or just a break up due to a common unknowingly influenced brain wash.


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## petlovingfreak

I don't even care how old this is, haha, pathetic, there is no such thing.


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## emc7

I don't know if its brainwashing, but people do unconsciously pick up the beliefs and values of those around them. Thats why "corporate culture" matters and why keeping addicts away from people who use works. I wonder how many "true believers", religious church-going, party-line voting people actually give any thought to what they believe. People and their children who do all their activities though the church naturally reinforce one another to continue what they are doing. 

I have to say I admire KR for being willing to think and argue about what he believes.


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## Toshogu

get enough people saying the same thing every day, they eventually believe it with out question. Look at the swift boat ads, and flip flopping. tell a lie once, and no one will believe you. Tell a lie a million times, it becomes truth.


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## Cory Lover

I personally am a Liberal Christian. What gives me the most faith that God is there is because of (now, I'm no wingbat ;-)) spirits/ghosts. There would be no such thing as spirits or ghosts if there wasn't a creator. Now, you may say I have no proof that there are ghosts and spirits. But thousands of years of human history proves otherwise. There are so many instances that saying everyone is delusional who sees something is just ignorant. Plus, all the mediums who can talk to spirits. Sure, I agree some are just making stuff up for money, but others can't be. Not everything is staged.



lemons said:


> Do you know how I know that God isn't real?
> 
> It can be answered with this simple question:
> Why do men have nipples?


I can answer that question. Now, with my answer I won't go into specifics, I don't want to go above PG 13 so I'll just say this: many women find nipples attractive. Vice versa of course too. God had to make the opposite sexes attracted to each other. Otherwise, there'd be no babies 
How do I know this? Many of my best friends are women :razz:;-)


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## emc7

Sorry cory, I have to laugh at this one. Given: ghosts exist ergo God exists, QED. I'd ask you to first prove ghosts exist. If you accept lots of humans believing and/or writing down their encounters with ghosts as proof of ghosts, then you'd have to believe in God, The Devil, Angels, leprechauns, Aliens, the Shea, All of the old Nordic, Greek, and Roman gods and on and on. In my opinion humans cannot be trusted as good witnesses of anything. Therefore God and ghosts and all the rest require other proof to convince me.  But because you all "believe", you don't bother looking for proof except in books that were written by humans. Prove that God exists to me without relying on human evidence. Thats a much harder thing to do. I don't think that you can prove God doesn't exist, either. I don't think you need actual proof to justify worshiping. Thats why they call it faith.


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## TheOldSalt

Man, we really should have killed this thread months ago...

I can attest to the existence of ghosts, having seen too many of them to ignore. However, I have managed to classify them into various categories, and of them, "disembodied spirit" is pretty frickin' rare compared to those which are just side effects of weird phenomena.

As I understand it, ghosts aren't _supposed_ to exist anyway, according to the church. People are supposed to die and their spirits are supposed to sleep until judgment day. One biblethumper buddy of mine once even dismissed some ghosts we saw as "mere demons" trying to confuse us. LOL Yes, I'm serious. He vehemently denied the existence of ghosts because they aren't supposed to exist, so I took him to a really good spot for finding them and we waited. When they appeared, he was not freaked out so much as irritated. Pretty funny. Anyway, the existence of ghosts doesn't really prove anything, I think; they could have come from other possible sources that didn't need God to make.
That said, I'm a believer nonetheless. Be glad, too; it's the only thing keeping me from doing all sorts of nasty stuff.

As for the nipple thing, that also is meaningless. Males & females come from the same template, which is tweaked to develop whichever way. Almost all life is based on this same setup. The use of this system does not disprove God in any way; he just tends to use what works well, and why wouldn't He? Evolution itself is simply a labor-saving device that self-corrects things and makes things more interesting. If I were a god, I would certainly use it, for otherwise it would just be work-work-work all the time.


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## Aquaman_95

emc7 said:


> Sorry cory, I have to laugh at this one. Given: ghosts exist ergo God exists, QED. I'd ask you to first prove ghosts exist. If you accept lots of humans believing and/or writing down their encounters with ghosts as proof of ghosts, then you'd have to believe in God, The Devil, Angels, leprechauns, Aliens, the Shea, All of the old Nordic, Greek, and Roman gods and on and on. In my opinion humans cannot be trusted as good witnesses of anything. Therefore God and ghosts and all the rest require other proof to convince me. But because you all "believe", you don't bother looking for proof except in books that were written by humans. Prove that God exists to me without relying on human evidence. Thats a much harder thing to do. I don't think that you can prove God doesn't exist, either. I don't think you need actual proof to justify worshiping. Thats why they call it faith.


Sorry, that's not laughing matter. Honestly, Leprechauns, and Aliens could exist. Personally, I've experienced quite a few things when it comes to ghosts. And well seriously, something had to have created all of this. You know, maybe you don't believe because your not as..advanced as the rest of us? Or maybe they just wish to leave you alone? Usually there's a good reason why you haven't encountered something like that.


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## emc7

I'm so worthless ghosts don't bother with me. I'm crushed with disappointment. Maybe I'm third-eye blind or I live in new construction. Who cares. God doesn't bother to contact me either. Every culture believes in some things and thinks other people's beliefs are nonsense. Its contradictory. Why do you trust your people's prophets and not other people's. To me its all here-say. Same level of evidence. 

My point is that I don't trust humans. Our experience is subjective. We see things than aren't there for all kinds of reasons related to our brains. We lie to others, we write lies down. Our experiences change with time in our memories and get messed up in retelling from person to person. I'm not saying ghosts don't exist. I'm saying that me or you seeing a ghost isn't "PROOF" that ghosts exist. I never said there wasn't a creator. I only ever said that nothing in this thread satisfies my definition of "PROOF" of a creator. 

Personally I believe Aliens exist (the universe is vast enough that its unlikely we'd be the only place with life), but don't bother to cross interstellar distances to visit us. Why should they bother when we broadcast our entire world out over the airwaves? If they have any curiosity about us, they can just listen in. And even if they are here studying us. So what? If we are the meerkats in an alien "Meerkat Manor", then they are trying hard not to interfere with us. How does believing in them help us at all? At lease various deities promise some reward for good behavior, belief, or prayer.


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## Aquaman_95

emc7 said:


> I'm so worthless ghosts don't bother with me. I'm crushed with disappointment. Maybe I'm third-eye blind or I live in new construction. Who cares. God doesn't bother to contact me either. Every culture believes in some things and thinks other people's beliefs are nonsense. Its contradictory. Why do you trust your people's prophets and not other people's. To me its all here-say. Same level of evidence.
> 
> My point is that I don't trust humans. Our experience is subjective. We see things than aren't there for all kinds of reasons related to our brains. We lie to others, we write lies down. Our experiences change with time in our memories and get messed up in retelling from person to person. I'm not saying ghosts don't exist. I'm saying that me or you seeing a ghost isn't "PROOF" that ghosts exist. I never said there wasn't a creator. I only ever said that nothing in this thread satisfies my definition of "PROOF" of a creator.
> 
> Personally I believe Aliens exist (the universe is vast enough that its unlikely we'd be the only place with life), but don't bother to cross interstellar distances to visit us. Why should they bother when we broadcast our entire world out over the airwaves? If they have any curiosity about us, they can just listen in. And even if they are here studying us. So what? If we are the meerkats in an alien "Meerkat Manor", then they are trying hard not to interfere with us. How does believing in them help us at all? At lease various deities promise some reward for good behavior, belief, or prayer.


You simply just contradicted yourself. The way you phrased your last post it made it seem as if you were saying you didn't believe in Aliens, and you shouldn't have included it in the list that you think "Why Should People Believe In It?" Honestly, this has nothing to do with Aliens spying on us, your simply trying to state something to distract us all from the real deal here. Your trying to bend your argument so that people can't "Go At You". Well, people aren't as stupid as you may think, and some people such as me can see right through your argument, like it was wiped with Windex. If your saying that I trust my "Peoples" prophets, which you did say that above in which I quoted, then you forgot that you didn't take the time to ask me, what do I believe in. 

You honestly, have to do that type of thing, if your going have a good and supportive argument. Also, you did say there wasn't a creator, by saying you didn't believe in anything. 

The next time you think your going to post or support a good argument, then you should do some research and think about what your actually going to say.


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## emc7

My beliefs aren't relevant to the argument about proof. Ghosts don't prove God, witnesses don't prove God. This thread has gone on for over a year without anyone calling anyone nasty names, so why are you getting so mean, personal and emotional? I laughed at the idea of proving the existence of one invisible, intangible entity with another. Its like describing blank paper as a picture of a polar bear in a snowstorm. Sure it could be true, but proof? I don't laugh at people's belief.
Its a frickin' fish board, not a monitored society debate. So if I make ungrammatical, illogical posts in the middle of the night, put me on your ignore list so you don't have to see anything I type. Or if you don't like my argument, attack it, not me. I never called anyone stupid and where did I say I didn't believe in anything? Please quote me. 

I still don't think you understand my argument. Humans are lousy witnesses. If you believe everything humans tell you, you end up believing in hundreds of contradictory things. So if you don't believe all of it, why believe any of it? My point is that everything on that list is equally support by the evidence. That is the only evidence for any of it is that someone (or several million someones) has seen it and believes it to be so. What makes one thing more believable than another? Does anyone believe in all of those? Why should we believe in Jehovah and not Thor, Aliens, but not brownies? I don't have to know what you believe or which prophet or people you claim to know that some other group of humans believes in something else and that they believe what you believe is wrong. So lets hold a civil discussion. 

Believe what you like. Tell me what you believe, it is interesting. Don't call it proof. I put up what I believe because you seemed interested in what I believe, you keep guessing, after all.

I believe a creator is not proven and very likely unprovable. I also believe a creator is not disprovable. Assume we live in a closed system called "creation", logically the creator would live outside of it and not interact with us much. He might even have to manipulate elements within the creation for those within the system to perceive him at all. How do you tell which elements within the system are being manipulated by "God" and which are natural phenomena, and which are hoaxes by other humans designed to use "God" to manipulate human behavior? I'm not even sure I can state a criteria, that if met, would convince me to call it proven. I think I could believe so strongly that I devote my life to something and I would still not call it proven. 

I believe in evolution. I believe you can watch evolution in action in fish, in bacteria, in fruit flies. I believe those who don't believe in evolution are ignorant (which is worse than stupid because it fixable). I don't believe that the existence of evolution means there is no creator. I agree with TOS that a smart creator would use evolution. I believe evolution is a very, very good theory that is supported by a preponderance of the evidence. I don't consider it proven.


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## lohachata

I.....AM.....GOD!!!!!!!!!

and i can prove it..........

when you pray..you pray to God...

every time i pray ; i find that i am talking to myself..

so i must be GOD.....

i see so many folks get wrapped up in arguments about whether or not God exists..
and about showing proof as to his existance ; or lack there of..
and then comes the arguments about how we come to believe ; or know ; what we espouse.folks need to take a break from La La land and come back to the real world..
everything that we know..."EVERYTHING"....IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT...
we were not born free thinking independent masterminds of the universe..
i am a fierce believer in god..my belief was passed down to me from my parents.. but along the way i learned about other things..passed down from other people... but i stopped here and there along the way for a small piece of my own wonderment...
i looked at all the creatures plants and other amazements that surround us..
man just does not have the intellectual capacity to even imagine creating even the simplest of god's creations...yet we have the audacity to assume that he does not exist..and even that we humans are superior..
those that


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## lohachata

I.....AM.....GOD!!!!!!!!!

and i can prove it..........

when you pray..you pray to God...

every time i pray ; i find that i am talking to myself..

so i must be GOD.....

i see so many folks get wrapped up in arguments about whether or not God exists..
and about showing proof as to his existance ; or lack there of..
and then comes the arguments about how we come to believe ; or know ; what we espouse.folks need to take a break from La La land and come back to the real world..
everything that we know..."EVERYTHING"....IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT...
we were not born free thinking independent masterminds of the universe..
i am a fierce believer in god..my belief was passed down to me from my parents.. but along the way i learned about other things..passed down from other people... but i stopped here and there along the way for a small piece of my own wonderment...
i looked at all the creatures plants and other amazements that surround us..
man just does not have the intellectual capacity to even imagine creating even the simplest of god's creations...yet we have the audacity to assume that he does not exist..and even that we humans are superior..
those that claim to have found God ; have not..they have found another human that told them that they have found God.simple as that..
i am intelligent enough to know that there are things that do not have to be absolutely proven to me..are you really worried what will happen to you if you do or do not believe...
i will say that we humans were the biggest mistake that god ever made...look at us...mothers and fathers butcher their babies because thing didn't go the way they wanted..no real capacity to love..
today it is all about money ; sex and politics.
TOS was right..this thread should have been scrapped on the first page..
i can't count how many times i saw the inuendo of "you are wrong if you don't believe what i tell you to."


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## TheOldSalt

Aquaman, this is an official warning. We've been .._enjoying?_ this thread for a long time, and miraculously without any problems... until you showed up. Knock it off!!!

The ability to perceive paranormal things is usually the result of some sort of defect, not one of higher advancement.


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## guppyart

please note that all mutations and defects are breaks in genetic code that destroys it. so you are actually regressing not advancing 
must suck having broken dna


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## Cory Lover

emc7 said:


> Sorry cory, I have to laugh at this one. Given: ghosts exist ergo God exists, QED. I'd ask you to first prove ghosts exist.


Let's hypothetically believe ghosts exist. Now, me, you, our fish, and even the little mites in our bed pillows are physically existing. They are on this world, and their existence makes sense. We can prove and explain them living. We can touch them. But how could we explain ghosts? It makes no sense for something that dies (lets say me, in this example) to physically die but exist in spirit. It makes no sense in our rational world. We can't explain how something could die but still exist in a supernatural form. Therefore, there has to be something above us to create this. Therefore, it proves God exists.

Now proving ghosts only means looking at everything that proves there are ghosts. Somone who is racist can't see how wrong that is because they shut down their mind to it. The same with many people who don't believe in ghosts. They say all the stories are rubbish. 



> If you accept lots of humans believing and/or writing down their encounters with ghosts as proof of ghosts, then you'd have to believe in God, The Devil, Angels, leprechauns, Aliens, the Shea, All of the old Nordic, Greek, and Roman gods and on and on.


Ghosts are universal across the world though; people from Egypt to Sweden to Lestho to Andorra to Canada have all experienced things. It is a universal thing that spreads across countries and regions; all the other examples you brought up are country/region specific (aliens are a whole different topic, however). 



> In my opinion humans cannot be trusted as good witnesses of anything. Therefore God and ghosts and all the rest require other proof to convince me. But because you all "believe", you don't bother looking for proof except in books that were written by humans. Prove that God exists to me without relying on human evidence. Thats a much harder thing to do. I don't think that you can prove God doesn't exist, either. I don't think you need actual proof to justify worshiping. Thats why they call it faith.


What other proof would convince you?

I actually don't base all my faith in books; please don't lump us all together ;-)

There is NO proof that doesn't come from humans. If a group of people in Israel saw and talked to God, and told everyone, that is still human evidence, as you are relying on them telling the truth.

Only if God broadcast himself across the whole world on plasma TV could we believe anything...but since TVs are made by humans, maybe we couldn't even rely on that ;-)


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## emc7

> maybe we couldn't even rely on that


 exactly. I believe in the moon landing, but others think it was special effects. I don't know why I read this thread. I think God is unprovable.


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## Knight~Ryder

lohachata said:


> man just does not have the intellectual capacity to even imagine creating even the simplest of god's creations...yet we have the audacity to assume that he does not exist..and even that we humans are superior..


I like how you put that. I have said many things in this thread and it's nice to just sit back and watch a little.


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## Aquaman_95

guppyart said:


> please note that all mutations and defects are breaks in genetic code that destroys it. so you are actually regressing not advancing
> must suck having broken dna


Broken DNA, no. Mutations aren't defects, they are genetic variations in which more DNA becomes mixed, and it changes.



TheOldSalt said:


> Aquaman, this is an official warning. We've been .._enjoying?_ this thread for a long time, and miraculously without any problems... until you showed up. Knock it off!!!
> 
> The ability to perceive paranormal things is usually the result of some sort of defect, not one of higher advancement.


Excuse me, but you also saw him saying pretty much the same thing to me, and you didn't warn him. Actually if I'm not mistaken there was another dispute in this thread a few pages back. 

This seems very corrupt. But, you know, if he wasn't a Freshwater Advisor, he wouldn't have been warned.


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## Aquaman_95

But I'm finished with this thread, thanks for your time


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## emc7

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I have been posting random arguments on and off for months and you, AM, are the first to tell me, in other words, to shut up. Does anyone else agree? I think perhaps I am repeating myself and not contributing anything to this thread in particular anymore (if i ever did, I just like to argue). I'm guessing you, AM got warned because you got close to the "no flaming" rule and because you "started it". If I keep attacking you back, I will get warned, too. No special favors.

Cory, thank you for responding intelligently. I agree that there does seem to be a universal belief in "supernatural" entities across all cultures and that the existence of any sort of spiritual "residue" remaining after the death of a living thing would tend to contradict an exclusively tangible, scientific, and rational world-view. The existence of one invisible, intangible thing could well indicate the existence of others. It would certainly indicate the failure of "normal" means to detect all that exists. That wouldn't be incompatible with current science. The math of quantum mechanics and string theory hints at there being more dimensions, aka variables, than we are currently able to measure. As Newtonian mechanics was shown not be universal, but rather just a special case of quantum mechanics when the quantum numbers are huge, we may yet discover more layers of understanding without disproving what we can already observe empirically. 

I will flip-flop and take the opposite side of an argument if it seems more interesting to do so, even against myself. So my argument that people believe contradictory things and they can't all be true can be turned around to say billions of people believe in creators & afterlives. Cultures separated by time and distance believe similar things, so doesn't that mean there is some universal truth that people are perceiving? 

The counter to that is that belief in a "higher power" is an artifact of the human brain. That there is some evolutionary advantage in belief in a creator (like reducing anti-social behavior such as murder). 

But now i know i am repeating myself.


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## Aquaman_95

emc7 said:


> I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I have been posting random arguments on and off for months and you, AM, are the first to tell me, in other words, to shut up. Does anyone else agree? I think perhaps I am repeating myself and not contributing anything to this thread in particular anymore (if i ever did, I just like to argue). I'm guessing you, AM got warned because you got close to the "no flaming" rule and because you "started it". If I keep attacking you back, I will get warned, too. No special favors.
> 
> Cory, thank you for responding intelligently. I agree that there does seem to be a universal belief in "supernatural" entities across all cultures and that the existence of any sort of spiritual "residue" remaining after the death of a living thing would tend to contradict an exclusively tangible, scientific, and rational world-view. The existence of one invisible, intangible thing could well indicate the existence of others. It would certainly indicate the failure of "normal" means to detect all that exists. That wouldn't be incompatible with current science. The math of quantum mechanics and string theory hints at there being more dimensions, aka variables, than we are currently able to measure. As Newtonian mechanics was shown not be universal, but rather just a special case of quantum mechanics when the quantum numbers are huge, we may yet discover more layers of understanding without disproving what we can already observe empirically.
> 
> I will flip-flop and take the opposite side of an argument if it seems more interesting to do so, even against myself. So my argument that people believe contradictory things and they can't all be true can be turned around to say billions of people believe in creators & afterlives. Cultures separated by time and distance believe similar things, so doesn't that mean there is some universal truth that people are perceiving?
> 
> The counter to that is that belief in a "higher power" is an artifact of the human brain. That there is some evolutionary advantage in belief in a creator (like reducing anti-social behavior such as murder).
> 
> But now i know i am repeating myself.


It's fine. I just thought I should pose my views and arguments. And hey, everyone needs to be told to shutup sometimes, even me.


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## Knight~Ryder

Can anyone honestly say that they believe that all this (earth, our lives) was for nothing. That we live our life however many years, and in the end it means nothing. That we just float through life without any sense of direction and meaning. That there is no afterlife, other side? That there really is no hope in the end? Does anyone here really believe that?


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## emc7

Wow, thats dark, KR. Whether there is an afterlife or not, we shape this world. We affect each other, we make each other happy, we give other people memories, we help each other, we support our children, we give love and we receive it and we are remembered when we're gone. 

You can be an Atheist without being a nihilist. Just because you weren't born with a purpose, doesn't mean you can't find one. That you can't contribute to humanity's knowledge of this wonderful world or improve the systems that humans have created to support each other, or create works of lasting beauty. 

Some of the most beautiful music and art in the world was created to glorify God by true believers. But if there were no God, that music and art would still be beautiful and still soothe and uplift people yet unborn.

This life is a gift. Every moment is a treasure. Don't waste it despairing of the lack of anything else. Its enough. Anything more is bonus.


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## Knight~Ryder

For me all I know is God. To me anything that is seperate from God is a waste to me. There would be no point if there were no direction in life. There has to be something. This all can not be for not. There has to be a lasting and eternal happiness. Have you noticed that many people who try to attain happiness apart from God do not attain it because it is a temporary means of trying to be forever happy. Getting drunk, delving into drugs, sex is all temporary. You need to do it over and over again to feel something and many get more and more depressed because it isn't a lasting eternal peace.

For me all those things do nothing for me and I don't need to get involved in all that. I am simply happy exsisting. I can sit at home all day doing nothing and be content and peaceful. Us humans have cretated a system to fail. Everything around us is failing. Then you turn on the news and listen to the "talking heads" telling us what to do and what they think. The whole world system is a failure. 

Sure there are sparks of emotions but of what lasting value are they? How can one truly feel satisfied. A raise, more wealth, family, materials. What happens when they dissapear? When you are reduced to nothing. 

Something that speaks to me is BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GOD. Then it can keep being reduced to BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM all the way down to BE STILL then BE. Just be. What other lasting peace is there in a chaotic world. Sure there are millions of ways at looking at things, but where is the lasting peace. If living is to suffer, why go through it? To live for a small moment of happiness and then suffer again? No wonder many people give up and think suicide is the only way out, but there is MORE! I may not know it all, but rising above the world system is one step closer to lasting peace for me.


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## emc7

I have a good life. I have enough food, delicious food whenever I want. I have a warm place to sleep. I have music, I have birds and fish to watch and a warm cat purring in my lap. I have good health, most of my teeth and no pain. There is no war in my immediate neighborhood and no houses have fallen on me. If you described my life to my peasant ancestors, it would sound a lot like their descriptions of paradise. To want more seems ungrateful. I am undeserving of this heaven on Earth. I try not to be evil, not because I fear punishment, but because I have empathy and don't want to cause suffering. Does appreciating what I have make me worldly and materialistic? Yes, but what would I be if I didn't appreciate it? Ungrateful and insensitive.

To want a personal relationship with God seem like the height of hubris. Perhaps it is my catholic background, that church's emphasis on hierarchy, that makes me feel like a low worm. 

Catholics cherish our Saints because they are closer to us. One wouldn't want to bother the Bishop when you can ask a favor an altar boy. A Saint is more like us, more approachable. 

A low worm doesn't really care if the Pope is walking by, he is a worm living his worm life. It is not that I can't believe in God, it is that I can't believe God would notice a worm like me. You want to believe, need to believe. I fear to believe in the words of my childhood faith. I don't want to die and face eternal damnation suffering forever for my slothfulness, my laziness. Not for being bad, but for not being Good. Good is more than the absence of evil, it is giving away your own comforts to ease the suffering of others. I know what good is and I am not good. It is easier to believe that I am worm and if I am not worth uplifting, I am also not worth punishing.

I don't need the promise of heaven to find joy in a child's smile or peace in a cat's purr. The older I get the more I treasure the quiet moments. I agree that sometimes one needs to just BE. To sit still and experience the now with no expectations. This world is beautiful and ugly, fill yourself with wonder at the beauty and work to ease the ugliness. 

This life isn't fair, you don't get what you deserve before you die. I believe that those who are gifted, lucky or blessed have an moral obligation to try to ameliorate the suffering of those less fortunate. It shouldn't take a deity with a carrot and a stick to make us take care of each other. My life is good because my parents worked hard, my grandparents worked hard and my grandparents grandparents were courageous enough to cross an ocean looking for a better life. The systems (community, laws, government, education) of this world that human built, that we benefit from, we need to maintain, and we need to improve them. It is our obligation to our children to pay back the efforts of our ancestors with our own labor toward improving the future. 

Some of my ancestors probably led short, hungry, diseased, miserable, painful lives and the only hope they had was that the next life would be better. We have a taste of paradise in this life and we have the leisure time to better this world. To turn our back on the world we live in and turn our eyes only to the afterlife would be, IMO, selfish and sinful.

To say that the whole world is "for naught" if the creator of universe doesn't deign to notice you or plan your afterlife is inconceivable to me. Every tree is a masterpiece, every child a miracle. I feel honored to live in this universe regardless of its source or my own soul's future. 

I've enjoyed conversing with you, KR, but I still don't feel I understand you. I can't even imagine having your certainty, nor can I imagine needing it.


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## jones57742

emc7 said:


> A low worm doesn't really care if the Pope is walking by, he is a worm living his worm life.


Folks:

This may sound terrible but I do not care either.

The boy puts his britches on one leg at a time just like I do.

TR


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## Knight~Ryder

The older I get the more I understand what others are saying. I can see from many points and views. I had to come to the realization that God didn't exist to understand why "he" does. Don't ask me to explain that one.

Don't get me wrong. I understand what I have and how I got it, and I appreciate every minute of it. What I can never understand is all this seperateness. Why is everything in the world seperated? We try our hardest to get close with each other in every possible way, but it's never a lasting closeness. 

Forgive me if my mind wanders and thinks about things that may not cross other minds, but this is really all I know now. Maybe it's a constant bombardment of over information in these days with the internet, phones, and general technology that gets me to ask what I ask. This is why I say I like to unwind and relax my brain instead of always constantly wandering off. 

To me this doesn't feel like my final destination. I don't feel "at home" here. I have a very outgoing personality and get along great with everyone. I have a loving wife, great family (new addition recently) and I love all of it and enjoy it all, but I still feel that there is more, something that this earth can't fill. Sometimes I wish I could shut it off but I can't. It's always there. 

So I coast along and do my thing, but way deep down there is a longing for that "something". Maybe you have never experience that, but it's something I deal with and I'm not afraid expressing it. I know the world can't give me what I'm looking for inside and only God can. I don't look at myself like a worm. I used to when I was taught religion itself, but I now know the difference bewteen a relationship and religion. I no longer feel condemed or guilty but free. 

But overall like I said that feeling is there. Can you understand anything with what I shared, because I do know where your coming from.


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## emc7

I understand your arguments, and I understand that feeling of emptiness and restlessness. But I never understand when someone tells me they "feel" connected to God, the universe or other "something larger than themselves". I guess because I've haven't felt that way myself. I can tell this is important to you, or you wouldn't be trying to explain it. 

I sometimes feel that "everything will be all right" or "things will be better tomorrow" will no rational basis for that belief and that feeling can keep me hanging in there through rough times. I often predict who is calling on the phone, but I figure it is just pattern recognition rather than any uncanny ability. I dreamed my cat got out and died, the day before it happened. But we were moving and the movers were propping open doors so it was a very rational fear for my subconscious to have. I don't exclude the possibility of a spiritual life, but I don't know how to have one.


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## Knight~Ryder

Those are some pretty neat experiences! I would say that most people are on a spiritual path but most don't know it yet. There comes a time in every soul when the chief concern is no longer the survival of the physical body, but the growth of the spirit.

Spirituality for many people, is the simple yet sacred act of connecting with something greater than oneself — often referred to as your "higher power," "the divine," or "the absolute."

For me it is basically inviting God into my life. Going to church doesn't make me spiritual, but there are aspects to church that help me grow as well as helping others grow as well. There are studies that show that church promotes longer and healthier lives, but I'm sure not in it for the physical aspect though I wouldn't mind enjoying those benefits as well. 

For me I know Jesus is the perfect role model among many other names. From reading just several words of his I have learned many things such as forgiveness, practicing gratitude, demonstrating appreciation, giving & receiving, and cultivating compassion for all walks of life. I have not only learned these things but it became a part of me.

I have studied and looked into many religions and they don't cut it for me. There is no substance. Inviting Jesus in my life was the most best and amazing experience I ever did. Up until I did so I didn't and couldn't understand a thing as my natural man couldn't receive spiritual stuff.

Jesus and "christianity"may be a religion for some but for me it's a way of life out of darkness into the light.


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## Knight~Ryder

*Has anyone seen this?

This is an awesome documentary, and I highly﻿ recommend it. He interviews both evolutionists and those that support intelligent design, which I believe gives a full, rounded picture of the issue. Both sides talk.

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (Super Trailer)*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGCxbhGaVfE


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## WeavingFeathers

I just have a simple mantra: You can't have a religion until you except everyone else's.
(I've called myself lots of different things, but my Goddess has finally called me home...)


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## TheOldSalt

Well, that does sorta go against the whole POINT of religion, doesn't it, which would be more akin to "you can't have a religion until you eschew everyone else's."

Hey! 450 posts in this thread. Whoo!
Now if we could only get some fish topics to go on that long...


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## emc7

Hmm, for a long fish thread you'd need something controversial so that every new person would have to weigh in. 

Not sure the length of this is a good thing. Usually the stupid stuff I post just vanishes with dead threads.


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## Knight~Ryder

Here is something to chew on.

Socrates taught for 40 years, Plato for 50, Aristotle for 40, and Jesus for only 3. Yet the influence of Christ's 3-year ministry infinitely transcends the impact left by the combined 130 years of teaching from these men who were among the greatest philosophers of all antiquity and time.


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## Knight~Ryder

WeavingFeathers said:


> I just have a simple mantra: You can't have a religion until you except everyone else's.
> (I've called myself lots of different things, but my Goddess has finally called me home...)


Sorry but Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father except through me"

Everyone else just pointed to him. Buddha never claimed to be God. Moses never claimed to be Jehovah. Mohammed never claimed to be Allah. Yet Jesus Christ claimed to be the true and living God. Buddha simply said, "I am a teacher in search of the truth." Jesus said, "I am the Truth." Confucius said, "I never claimed to be holy." Jesus said, "Who convicts me of sin?" Mohammed said, "Unless God throws his cloak of mercy over me, I have no hope." Jesus said, "Unless you believe in me, you will die in your sins."

So Let's not add to the confusion shall we.


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## Blue Cray

I got one. if god is real why would that one figure skaters mother die right before it was her turn at the olymics? Sure she might do better to honor her mom but still if he's really he's a ****************.


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## Knight~Ryder

Blue Cray said:


> I got one. if god is real why would that one figure skaters mother die right before it was her turn at the olymics? Sure she might do better to honor her mom but still if he's really he's a ****************.


You only have one? I have millions. The list is countless. Billions go through stuff everyday. Why do you need someone to blame and how long do you need to hold onto such bitterness?


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## hXcChic22

Knight~Ryder said:


> You only have one? I have millions. The list is countless. Billions go through stuff everyday. Why do you need someone to blame and how long do you need to hold onto such bitterness?


I think I like your way of thinking. 

There are people all over the world who lost a parent, child, friend, that day that could have been a way more painful experience. It only got attention because she was an Olympian. Everyone else just had to suffer in silence. 

I feel sorry for her but people die every day. My own father died in December. But I don't blame God. My father lived a long life and I thank God that we got as long as we did with him, considering that he was elderly even when my older brother was born. Everyone has a time, and it's not logical say that there isn't a God just because people die. It's natural, and it's how things work. Has been that way since the beginning of time.


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## Blue Cray

Lol I just like making fun of people who start threads like this, they're rediculous.


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## Merf

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## guppyart

if you follow general Christianity the new testament has a new sets of rules to follow, and that because of Christ the old ways are no longer needed. 
Granted it might help with the darwin effect a bit more if we had rules like that.

also servant was different from slave as servants worked a term vs being owned more so.
they got paid.


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## hXcChic22

guppyart said:


> if you follow general Christianity the new testament has a new sets of rules to follow, and that because of Christ the old ways are no longer needed.
> Granted it might help with the darwin effect a bit more if we had rules like that.
> 
> also servant was different from slave as servants worked a term vs being owned more so.
> they got paid.


Wow Gup... I'm glad you know what's up


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## Merf

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## hXcChic22

Merf said:


> So you're saying that the first set of rules "god" created was wrong? Or that they were no longer applicable... So before christ it was okay to kill people for stupid things buuuut after he came they thought maybe it was wrong. It's all the "word of god", so why would god need to change his set of rules? Much less allow senseless killing in the first place.


Look up our reasoning before you knock it. If you look up the meaning of the words "testament", "testator", "covenants", especially in correlation to the Bible, you'll see that we know what we're talking about. 
Or you could just say things like what you said without knowing anything about the subject.


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## Merf

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## hXcChic22

Merf said:


> Testament: a profession of belief; either of the two main parts of the christian bible
> Testator: A testator is a person who has written and executed a last will and testament that is in effect at the time of his/her death.
> Covenants: (Bible) an agreement between God and his people in which God makes certain promises and requires certain behavior from them in return
> 
> I did my homework and I'm still not seeing what you were trying to say, if I found the wrong definitions please correct them. Please elaborate.


Jesus was the testator of the New Testament. When he died, those rules went into effect and cancelled out most of the old ones in the Old Testament (like making sacrifices, punishment of death for various infractions, etc.)

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
This verse states that the New Covenant (aka Testament) will be put into place and people will be forgiven for sins rather than killed (thanks to Jesus ever so kindly giving himself up for us, even though we seem to take every opportunity to deny He did anything for us)


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## hXcChic22

Also this site explains things better than I can, with more verses, and more detail. 
http://www.kc-cofc.org/39th/IBS/Tracts/oldornew.htm
The only thing I disagree with is the statement in this article that we should not obey the 10 Commandments. In fact, the New Testament also mentions most of them as things that should still be followed at some point or another. (The only difference is if they happen and you repent and ask for forgiveness, now you don't have to die)


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## Merf

I'm sorry for even starting any of this, truly. Let's both stick to our own beliefs.


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## emc7

lol, beware this endless thread


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## COM

emc7 said:


> lol, beware this endless thread


LOL! The only undebatable post thus far, I reckon!


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## Merf

emc7 said:


> lol, beware this endless thread


I-I-I...I didn't know!


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## Knight~Ryder

Merf said:


> Let's both stick to our own beliefs.


Thing is merf, it's not only a belief, it's a lived our daily thing in our lives. I can speak for myself only in this matter that it is something I live out daily. I pick my cross up on a daily basis and follow Jesus. He is the only one we can follow in this uncertain world. This explains it a bit more.

*Bible Question:* What does it mean to "take up your cross and follow Me"?

*Bible Answer:* "Take up your cross and follow Me!" These are Jesus' words from Mark 8:34. Peter has objected to the idea that Jesus will die, Jesus has just rebuked him for objecting and then He paints a picture of a man or woman who wants to be with Him.

And He summoned the multitude with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. (NASB) Mark 8:34

When Jesus says, "come after", He means "to come to a point of being with" Him. Have you ever wished you could have been with Jesus, to have walked with Him, and to have spoken with Him? If you are a Christian, do you want a greater relationship? Jesus tells us how here with black and white colors.
*Say No!* The starting point is to "deny" ourselves. You want more of a spiritual relationship with Jesus? It starts just denying yourself. It starts by saying "NO" to yourself. The word Jesus uses for 'deny" actually means "to say no." This verse does not mean to deny ourselves something we want to eat, wear, or view. It means to say no to yourself! This is a complete denial of self in favor of Jesus. Peter had objected to Jesus dying. Jesus told Peter and His disciples simply that they must be willing to die to themselves in every way - including death. The early Christians did die to themselves - by torture, fire, and in the Roman Coliseum. Are you willing to suffer humiliation for witnessing for Jesus? Are you willing to deny yourself sexual pleasure, gossiping, pursuit of wealth for Jesus?
*Take Your Cross.* We are to take up our cross and try to leave it there. Jesus did not say to take His cross. We are to take up our crosses - our struggles. The cross symbolized pain and suffering. What a contrast! We are to say "NO" to ourselves and to be willing to suffer - He did! How are we doing with denying ourselves the pleasures of this world? Are you willing to suffer insult for Jesus? How regular is your attendance at church? Or, are there more enjoyable things to do? Are you willing to suffer? Even to die?
*And Follow.* Following is not a separate activity. We are not following Jesus if we are not saying no to ourselves and being willing to suffer with Him. Jesus says it is not possible to really follow Him if you are not denying yourself.

Conclusion:That is how we come to Jesus. We must come denying ourselves and leaning on Jesus and not ourselves. We are not Christians if we did not give up on ourselves and give ourself to Him. That is how we started and that is the pattern Jesus says we must follow if we really want to be with Him.


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## Knight~Ryder

Better yet.

Question: "What did Jesus mean when He said, “Take up your cross and follow Me” (Matthew 16:24; Mark 8:34; Luke 9:23)?"

Answer: Let’s begin with what Jesus didn’t mean. Many people interpret “cross” as some burden they must carry in their lives: a strained relationship, a thankless job, a physical illness. With self-pitying pride, they say, “That’s my cross I have to carry.” Such an interpretation is not what Jesus meant when He said, “Take up your cross and follow Me.”

When Jesus carried His cross up Golgotha to be crucified, no one was thinking of the cross as symbolic of a burden to carry. To a person in the first-century, the cross meant one thing and one thing only: death by the most painful and humiliating means human beings could develop.

Two thousand years later, Christians view the cross as a cherished symbol of atonement, forgiveness, grace, and love. But in Jesus’ day, the cross represented nothing but torturous death. Because the Romans forced convicted criminals to carry their own crosses to the place of crucifixion, bearing a cross meant carrying their own execution device while facing ridicule along the way to death.

Therefore, “Take up your cross and follow Me” means being willing to die in order to follow Jesus. This is called “dying to self.” It’s a call to absolute surrender. After each time Jesus commanded cross bearing, He said, “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?” (Luke 9:24-25). Although the call is tough, the reward is matchless.

Wherever Jesus went, He drew crowds. Although these multitudes often followed Him as Messiah, their view of who the Messiah really was—and what He would do—was distorted. They thought the Christ would usher in the restored kingdom. They believed He would free them from the oppressive rule of their Roman occupiers. Even Christ’s own inner circle of disciples thought the kingdom was coming soon (Luke 19:11). When Jesus began teaching that He was going to die at the hands of the Jewish leaders and their Gentile overlords (Luke 9:22), His popularity sank. Many of the shocked followers rejected Him. Truly, they were not able to put to death their own ideas, plans, and desires, and exchange them for His.

Following Jesus is easy when life runs smoothly; our true commitment to Him is revealed during trials. Jesus assured us that trials will come to His followers (John 16:33). Discipleship demands sacrifice, and Jesus never hid that cost.

In Luke 9:57-62, three people seemed willing to follow Jesus. When Jesus questioned them further, their commitment was half-hearted at best. They failed to count the cost of following Him. None was willing to take up his cross and crucify upon it his own interests.

Therefore, Jesus appeared to dissuade them. How different from the typical Gospel presentation! How many people would respond to an altar call that went, “Come follow Jesus, and you may face the loss of friends, family, reputation, career, and possibly even your life”? The number of false converts would likely decrease! Such a call is what Jesus meant when He said, “Take up your cross and follow Me.”

If you wonder if you are ready to take up your cross, consider these questions:
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing some of your closest friends?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means alienation from your family?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means the loss of your reputation?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing your job?
• Are you willing to follow Jesus if it means losing your life?

In some places of the world, these consequences are reality. But notice the questions are phrased, “Are you willing?” Following Jesus doesn’t necessarily mean all these things will happen to you, but are you willing take up your cross? If there comes a point in your life where you are faced with a choice—Jesus or the comforts of this life—which will you choose?

Commitment to Christ means taking up your cross daily, giving up your hopes, dreams, possessions, even your very life if need be for the cause of Christ. Only if you willingly take up your cross may you be called His disciple (Luke 14:27). The reward is worth the price. Jesus followed His call of death to self (“Take up your cross and follow Me”) with the gift of life in Christ: “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it” (Matthew 16:25-26).


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## Knight~Ryder

*Some people say that God isn't real because they don't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is real then He should stop all this evil, 'cause He's all-powerful right? What is evil though man? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally bad or wrong. It's murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit of it? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? I mean, where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil, we gotta be consistent, we can't just pick and choose. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Because we think evil stuff. If that's true, we should be eliminated! But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin! Christ died for all evilness!*


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## Guest

KR......u speak with such conviction.....question is....do YOU really know the history behind the bible? ur quoting stuff and providing your thoughts or opinions on this very delicate subject.....so am just wonderin....do u know who was the one who wrote the bible?


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## Knight~Ryder

Zakk said:


> KR......u speak with such conviction.....question is....do YOU really know the history behind the bible? ur quoting stuff and providing your thoughts or opinions on this very delicate subject.....so am just wonderin....do u know who was the one who wrote the bible?


I speak with such conviction because there is nothing else to stand on when it comes to the world system. NOTHING. Everything fails. Everything is designed to fail in this world. Just when you think you know the history on any subject in the world, someone comes along and says something contrary to what has been written down. The world bounces back and forth, left and right, up and down as to whether something is good for you or it's not. Simple things such as vitamins, medicines, vaccines. More complicated issues such as history, war. No one knows anything anymore.

If it's just knowledge we live by, then we might as well read until we die. Everything I know and have isn't just by reading. I am not here just by reading something if you can follow on what I am getting at. 

Zakk you can choose to live your life for no other reason then keeping fish and playing guitar....but I choose to live by something greater and so be it. If I'm wrong then I go to my casket and stay there forever rotting in the ground not knowing the thing. But if I'm right then I'm glad I trusted and had enough faith to live out the life I know to be true so that I can live for Jesus now and after. My main focus is not any afterlife, but to live for Jesus now! I know what he has done in my life and my families life, and I know what it does for others when I live for Jesus. 

We can look for answers in this world, but we will never ever find them. Keep looking zakk and see if you can find them. Not that you need to know all the answers, but look at how the world handles these situations, and how nothing is ever solved. Back and forth like a yo yo. We can argue and debate till we are blue in the face, but I will always live for Jesus and not just talk the talk. My relationship with Jesus is not purely theological. It goes far deeper then the world (the natural man) will ever understand.


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## Guest

actually....i would rather accept the answer i get from a fellow man rather than read a book put together by a heathen in an attempt to control man kind and term it the word of the Lord. thats bull **************** and a blatent attempt to make money of it. dont get me wrong. i have a very strong belief in Jesus Christ and a higher power......i just dont believe in the bible or the church. 

so to answer your question my friend.....i WILL turn to the world for answers. no answer that isnt straight is a honest answer. riddles and prose are for people who are not really sure what they are tryin to get at. i find it funny people just walk around quoting scriptures when these were hand picked by a man and edited to suit his need and worldy greed.

Sorry KR. this the bitter truth. our Lords teaching have been long been done away with and replaced and edited to suit certain people.


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## hXcChic22

Zakk said:


> this the bitter truth. our Lords teaching have been long been done away with and replaced and edited to suit certain people.


If that were true, don't you think the Bible would be easier to follow? Isn't that a lot of peoples' excuses, that the Bible has too many rules and unfair things that we're supposed to do? Too many things that don't mesh with today's society and are "backwards". 
I think that if people had made it to suit their needs (and that the original was lost) the Bible would say being gay is ok, that everyone should sleep around before they get married, that divorce is ok even if no one cheated, that we don't even have to try that hard at all. 
The church I go to, for example, is based solely on the Bible and what it says. No, we don't accept gay marriage. No, we don't teach that it's OK if you want to "experiment" sexually before you get married, etc., etc., etc. If that makes us backwards, then that's ok. No one said it was going to be easy.


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## Guest

u TOTALLY missed the point Tori....why would i turn to a book when i dont need to when i can get my answers from real life people? i'd rather read a novel. look u have ur faiths. what ever makes u tick is fine by me but....if you keep an open mind u'd see there are things in there that are written are the same things people who arent Christians have been sayin.....so how on earth does it make holy book? i dont need a book shoved under my nose telling me this is how the lord wants you to live....that IMO is a blatant LIE. this is how society wants me to live.

the point is this: i dont need a book to know whats right or wrong....what should be done or shouldnt be done. anyone with a decent up bringing would know what should be done and no offence Tori....but i honestly dont need a church to tell what needs to be done. i might not be the most religious one here but hey....i do have my daily chats with the MAN above. oh please dont temme someone is gonna dispute me on this as well now.....


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## Knight~Ryder

This country was founded on Christianity and so was America. America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.

All but two of the first 108 universities founded in America were Christian. This includes the first, Harvard, where the student handbook listed this as Rule #1: “Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

All all the corner stones of the government buildings in DC have bible verses on them.

In 1777. Continental Congress voted to spend $300,000 to purchase bibles which were to be distributed throughout the 13 colonies! And in 1782, the United States Congress declared, “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools. All the values and morals you grew up with knowing came from the bible, and whether you believe that or not, these morals came from somewhere. It's been changing overtime and you can see it all around.

Let it be said that DESPITE having a shorter period of time to teach and DESPITE not having anything written down, Yeshua (Jesus the Christ) had exponentially outweighed the impact of any other man. And the reason for that is simply that he was not just a man.

One of the lessons he was illustrating in not writing down anything was that a perfect and loving man is a man of action more than words. When he spoke he was motivating people to action, when others wrote of him it was because he DID what others only spoke of.

Great philosophies mean nothing if you can't live it, discussion of hope and love mean nothing if compassion and sacrifice are not exercised. One of the things that separated him from the religions of man was he did not say, "I think" or "I believe"; he acted. He turned the other cheek, he comforted those that were persecuted, he served others, he responded to those that asked, he did not show fear, he did not show vindictiveness, he did not hate anyone, he loved his enemies and his friends without failing, even unto death.

Some of the views expressed in the multiple dialogues (and monologues) here, are things I may have considered had I not the tenacity to delve further and accept the truth regardless of how it would affect my lifestyle.

But if anyone thinks that anything predates Yeshua (Jesus) then they cannot possibly fathom who he really is. His short ministry had a great impact because he did not spend the years learning as the scholars did. He had access to his own eternal wisdom.

I can go on about his love forever and, still, not all will accept. So, I chose to try to emulate his love in the actions I take in every moment of every day in hopes that someone will not have to read about what philosopher will change their life, but see that change reflected in me.
_
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil._


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## shev

Knight~Ryder said:


> This country was founded on Christianity and so was America. America was indeed founded by bible-believing Christians and based on Christian principles. When they founded this country, the Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity.


Couldn't disagree more here. Christianity obviously played a large role in the development of America, being a big reason for the original colonization and all, but that doesn't mean the founding fathers wanted it tied to the government. Actually, that's why they *didn't* want it tied to the government in any way shape or form. Why would they want to repeat the mistakes of England that they ran from in the first place?

Just read this article and thought it was pretty interesting. Here's an excerpt on that part:



> “I don’t think the founders would have said they were applying Christian principles to government,” says Richard Brookhiser, the conservative columnist and author of books on Alexander Hamilton, Gouverneur Morris and George Washington. “What they said was ‘the laws of nature and nature’s God.’ They didn’t say, ‘We put our faith in Jesus Christ.’ ” Martin Marty says: “They had to invent a new, broad way. Washington, in his writings, makes scores of different references to God, but not one is biblical. He talks instead about a ‘Grand Architect,’ deliberately avoiding the Christian terms, because it had to be a religious language that was accessible to all people.”


And, of course, the Treaty of Tripoli:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"



> The Senate's ratification was only the third recorded unanimous vote of 339 votes taken. The treaty was printed in the _Philadelphia Gazette_ and two New York papers, with no evidence of any public dissent.


Saying the founding fathers were christian is one thing, saying that this meant they had to have wanted America to be a christian nation is a whole nother thing. I don't even think many of them were religious at all. You can find quotes supporting both sides, but I would say they had a non-religious reason for publicly saying how they're religious (public support obviously, pandering to the overwhelmingly religious majority), but they only have one reason for giving non-religious quotes, and that's to be truthful and sincere.

Here's a relevant one from Thomas jefferson:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

He said this to a baptist group after receiving a letter from them about being persecuted by other more dominant christian groups of the time.

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

-John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson


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## emc7

> Founding Fathers envisioned a government that would promote and encourage Christianity


 Where did you get this, KR. I agree that FF the held some christian ideas about how men should treat each other, including an abhorrence of slavery which they cut out of the declaration of independence for practical reasons. But separation of church and state is written in really early in our history. They were building a nation where a motley assortment of religious and economic refugees could find common ground in a secular, humanist government. Students of history, the FF were well aware of the devastating, violent conflicts that were created when those in power attempted to enforce religious ideas on those who disagreed. I think they envisioned a secular nation of men, who though likely Christian, allowed Reason to guide them in public affairs. A fair state where no insane King or powerful, but pious zealot would abuse the people in God's name and where religious wars would never happen. 

I think some of the current 'separation of church and state' rulings are so strict, they are silly. The nativity scenes of public land, the no 'moment of silence', that kind of thing. I find it ironic that to avoid offending Christian and Jews, the commercial community is elevating the decorated Tree as a 'secular' symbol of the 'holiday season'. I saw "winter scene" of snowy-capped tree inside a catholic church and was shocked. I remember learning that the Tree or other greenery at winter solstice predated Christ and was considered Pagan.

Still I think many of the political Christian are headed in the wrong direction. Fighting for Prayer in school, fighting the teaching of evolution, fighting gay marriage. How does any of that reduce the suffering of a single human? The energy put into this should go into good works. 

I understand the anti-abortion point of view, if abortion is murder, its a deadly sin and stopping it could save a soul. 

But I prefer to live in a place where no one kills me to save my soul. We don't need any witch burning or forced baptisms. I think a Christian can do more good in a free, secular society than in a Christian, hierarchal, repressive society. I don't want to live in a Christian nation, I'd rather live in a nation of people who live by Christian principles and follow secular law.

By Christian principals I mean things like the 10 commandments, and the "golden rule", the exhortations to charity, and kindness to strangers. Basically, treating each other as we would like to be treated and as if we were going to be judged by it. They aren't exclusively Christian ideas. Even humanist atheists believe in aspiring to being better to each other.


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## Guest

EMC is prob one of the few who have their heads screwed on right in this twisted world we call a home. what she said so damn true!


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## Fishychic

I totally agree with EMC.


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## Knight~Ryder

LAWS have never changed anyone's hearts. Tell me where a real change comes from.


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## emc7

Change come from passion-inspired commitment and work. The people who reshape the world, whether they be Saints or politicians are those who pick one problem and devote their life to making a difference.

Laws are changed by people who want to improve their government and by people who want to 'fix' something. One person with a story and strong commitment can move the rest of us apathetic lumps. Witness all these laws named after specific people (often dead children), such as "Megan's Law). Although I firmly believe government should be entirely rational, our system doesn't work that way. Emotions sway votes to cause change and prevent it. Unfortunately, I see that more and more 'interest groups' are hiring skilled emotional manipulators to cynically manipulate gullible people into actions that, while heartfelt, really only serve the financial interests of the 'interest group'. The recent Supreme Court decision allowing unlimited spending by corporations on 'free speech' makes me fear more of the same. We will get government by and for the ones with the money to buy our hearts with the right TV or radio or internet "message'. Its frightening. If each of us would think about cost and benefits and fairness and consequences and 'who benefits' from each position we lobby for, we would deserve, and get a better government.

Sorry, this is getting even more off topic than usual for this thread. 

Some of the reasons I distrust organized religion is the common discouragement of individual thought in favor of group doctrine, the disparagement of science in favor of faith, and reason in favor of emotion. 

I fear a nation of sheep will end up being led around by wolves.


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## Knight~Ryder

emc7 said:


> Some of the reasons I distrust organized religion is the common discouragement of individual thought in favor of group doctrine, the disparagement of science in favor of faith, and reason in favor of emotion.
> 
> I fear a nation of sheep will end up being led around by wolves.


I believe individual thoughts and opinions are great. I have not come to what I know and believe now without it. I have learned to take everything to God and question it all within myself quietly. 

I don't need to make a public spectacle and start an uprise. I know everyone is on their own journey and just because I am going through something different I don't need to push that onto another. I do however like to state certain things and someone down the line somewhere will see it and appreciate the time I took out to help. Sometime just a sentence can change a persons life, but it's really the spirit behind the words that will ultimately change someone.

On the other hand look at how many denominations are in the "christian" faith. They got there from someone getting an "idea" and took it to the extreme, or they took a half a scripture and based the whole denomination on that "half scripture". There needs to be a unity within the body of Christ and not just have certain movements come along and sway everyone into that direction. Believers need to have an unshakable faith so that when the storms come they can withstand and not waver. I liken this to MILK and MEAT. Some believers only drink the milk and never move to the meat of the scripture and are led astray to any teaching and cunning craftiness of men. (Wolves) I have seen so many times people led astray and never know what to think because they don't stick with the basic principles of being a follower of Christ.

I know there are many different views of looking at scripture and like I said no problem with questioning certain things and growing in the faith. No one should just follow and tag along with what other people say and do. Many people often to go to other people and ask questions instead of going to God himself. I guess that is their journey, it may be a longer one, but still a journey to get to the truth.

All in all, I appreciate everyone in this thread for all the conversation we have had, shared and talked about. It has been wonderful. I know I haven't been talking about my fish lately but that's because they are all doing well without no deaths.  This is where my main passion is. Talking about the truths of God. I know we all are learning and growing and listening to everything I have heard here has been great for me as I am sure it has been great for others.

We all should strive to be better and do more for others and get going in a positive direction. We need to see we are all not perfect and are not better then anyone else. We all have sin in our lives and we must recognize this and have it resolved as soon as possible so that it does not hinder our growth.

Thank you emc for contributing so much into this topic, I have enjoyed this a lot and I will continue to keep enjoying it. I always look forward to the next post in here.

Now back on topic. Look to the first few paragraphs of my post to get back on topic.


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## emc7

I'm weak on scripture, and I do consider this a weakness. Consequently, I tend to ignore debates supported by quotes. That and I feel its a bit circular to argue "facts" based on a document whose 'factuality" is a matter of faith. I do like reading personal observations and feelings. Things like Thoreau wrote. Our FF and our great writers all had solid Biblical educations and I often feel that I missing a lot of allusions when I read. Although I support separation of church and state, I would allow "the Bible as literature" classes to help the modern student better understand much of the last 400 years of English literature. A lot of the 'keep religion out of schools" stuff is kind of ridiculous, but it is certainly simpler to ban it all rather spend your entire life fighting every new issue.


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## Guest

am sorry i watched the video and here are some loop holes.

1: time: its a concept created by man. position 1:37

2: space: define space: again another man made theory

3: even scientists agree that everything was created from something. its called the big bang theory. doesnt prove the existance of god.

4: the anology of using a light switch is just retarded imo. NO ONE's gonna flick the light infinite number of times just for a bar of candy. and HOW does that even apply? 

5: Religion is a matter of faith. i may chose to belive it. i may also chose not to belive it. no one has the right to condemn me for it. no has the right to force or coerce me into beliveing something that i dont with. i dont believe that anywhere in the bible its written Jesus forced people to follow him. he always advocated willingness. like when he told peter follow me and i will make you fisher of men. it doesnt mean peter goes out and casts his net on men and hauls them in.

6: i dont care if you like this or not but the bible was written by a MAN. not Jesus him self. i would not chose to believe in a literature designed to suit the ideas of men. how does that convert into the word of God? doesnt what a man has written remain written by man?

and if you REALLY wanna argue on Christianity, i mean for real, lets face it. the Catholic faith is the true lineage. the rest are splinter cells broken away cos they could not handle the true faith. for example the Protestants. no offence meant to anyone here. what is the bible that they follow? isnt it the King James edition? didnt kings james rewrite the bible to suit his need to divorce and remarry cos the catholic church disallowed it? how does become a religion? its more of a cult if u ask me. whether u wanna accept it or not thats how i look at it. am a non practicing catholic my self. why? cos i cant live the life of a catholic person. but! that doesnt mean i will go register my self with a non catholic church. heck i dont even go to church. i have seen enough priest walk out of brothels, strip clubs, gay joints and bars in my 29 years to realise that this is all a facade to make money. where is the point of preaching something and then doing the excact opposite in real life? 

i know rock and metal bands that are more religious that most priests. i even know some that are so well versed in the bible they can and will shut any self proclaimed priest. which brings me to these new aged "Church of God" assembly outfits. what are they? run by ex wife beaters and drunks and molesters? why do people flock to these shamartists instead of goin to an actual church? why follow a man who has done EVERYTHING against what is written in the bible, woke up one day and dons a suit and tie, grabs a bible and becomes a self proclaimed priest? you want salvation? is that what you'll are lookin for? do your selves a favour and go find a real priest who has heard the calling. 

what ever is written in the bible has been preached in diff religions around the world. do good to your fellow man. do not covet your neighbors wife (doesnt mean you sleep with the daughter). dont lie. dont steal. these are rule written by man to allow men to co-exist with each other. unfortunatly these things have been miscontrued and used to the greed of men. as we always do in every thing. 

there is a power that puts all things into motion. it happens when the time is right. it doesnt prove the existance of god. the sooner people wake up and realise this the better it would be for them selves. not me.

thats my take on this.


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## emc7

I think time and space are real as they are consistently and repeatedly measurable. Certainly they are theories that are well-supported by the data. However, its entirely possible that they are not all there is or that our perception of time and space are kind of limited by our perspective. There is little book called 'Flatland' that described the life of a polygon limited to a plane. It was interesting for about 2 minutes until it started to get political. Really. But there is no way a flat object can perceive the third dimension. Some of what they are looking for with the supercollider is to prove/disprove string theory's prediction of more dimensions. If you assume a possibility that there is more to existence to time and space, then there is no way you can disprove God. 

I agree with you that the video doesn't hold much water. And proving God from scripture first requires proving scripture. Its fun to argue about, but there are better things to put our energy toward. 

I also agree with you that the so-called "word of God" has been in fallible human hands for over a thousand years. For it to be neither mistranslated, altered, or biased by human copyists would truly require divine intervention. I was just reading about how the "apostle Junia" appears in early Christian letters and how its usually altered to a male name by the Monks who copy it. 

As for "true lineage". Why Catholicism, why not Eastern Orthodox that split from the same root. Why not the Judaism that Jesus came from, why not the Religion that Abraham converted from? Every faith in existence is either a splinter off another faith or else a wholesale invention (I put Scientology in this category) and even those are patterned on other religions. 

Thanks for your take. I'm amazed this thread has gone on so long and so 'peacefully'.


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## Guest

agreed emc. i was wrong to term catholics as the true lineage in general. christianity by comparision is a fairly new religion. relgions have existed before this and still continue to grow albit quitely. but lemme ask u this.....just how often do u see a hindu or a muslim or a jew or a paarsi or even an african bush man tryin to prove the existance of God? they each have thier faiths. they each have thier customs. they each have thier ritual (some more bizaare than that am used to) so why is that christians as a rule try to prove that there exists a God? why the claim that our God is "the One True God"? is god gonna be different to each sect or relgious sect? i wouldnt think so.

why is it so important to some people to convience the whole world in what they believe? this need to prove the existance seems to linger in the some members of the christian faith for some reason. for the love of my life i have not been able to figure this out. a belief dont need to be proven. a faith doesnt need to be proven. all u need is exactly that: Faith. proving the existance or non existance of your belief is really stone aged.

on a lighter note LOL Emc. scientology IS an invention for all practical purposes. you pegged the nail right on the head.


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## TheOldSalt

King James did not rewrite the bible to get himself a divorce. If anything, he went to extraordinary lengths to make sure that it did not get rewritten. You are thinking of an entirely different king.

Scientology is the result of a wager between L Ron Hubbard and my great grandfather, Aleister Crowley. ( L Ron won. )


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## emc7

The word is "proselytize" . The attempt to convert others to (presumptively) your faith. Every religion that believes it is only path to salvation imposes a duty on believers to "save" others by conversion. Could you just stand by an watch ignorant innocents go to Hell? I think that is behind all this "prove God" nonsense, another attempt to convince and convert (that and people like to see themselves on video). As annoying as Jehovah's witnesses and foreign missionaries are, I find them better then the armed 'holy warriors' of the past such as the crusades. Which is worse, trying to convert every person to your faith or forcing every person to live by your faith's laws? Punishing sins with jail time.


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## cossie333

no he is not real


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## emc7

lol, prove there is no God. IMO this is just as hard as proving there is one. Maybe more so, its harder to prove a negative.


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## shev

> For it to be neither mistranslated, altered, or biased by human copyists would truly require divine intervention.


That's an understatement, however beautifully said.


And @Eluviet, pretty much every religion is just as... "persistent" in trying to convert the world. You've only been subjected to the Christian side of things since you (probably) live in a dominantly christian area.



emc7 said:


> lol, prove there is no God. IMO this is just as hard as proving there is one. Maybe more so, its harder to prove a negative.


This may be true that it's harder to prove God doesn't exist, but it has nothing to do with the probability of him actually existing. I've heard this logic plenty of times, where just because two things can't be proven or disproven, it's implied that they are equally likely. 

Not only this, but there is also a "burden of proof" for those claiming God exists much moreso than for those claiming he doesn't exist. If I claim there is an invisable unicorn under my bed, it's up to me to prove there is, not for you to prove there isn't one.


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## Knight~Ryder

Eluviet said:


> there is a power that puts all things into motion. it happens when the time is right. it doesnt prove the existance of god. the sooner people wake up and realise this the better it would be for them selves. not me.


I wanted to break down everything you have said but I don't have time to. 

If divorce was re written then why would Jesus in Matthew 19:9 say _“Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” _

That sure discourages me from remarrying. One guy said it was rewritten because King james loves to eat pork..the list goes on and on.
*
Why would life be better for these people eluviet if they renounce their faith?*


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## Guest

Shev

surprisingly NO. i live in a non christian dominated area. infact i live in a hindu dominated area. i live in a country where Christians are a minority. i;ve been to numerous temples, mosques, gurdawars, holy house, holy river, smoked with some of the most enlightened gurus, practice pranic healing and reikie. i havent seen them tryin to convert me. in any form or manner. my rosary is worn around my neck at all times. in plain sight. 

KR

i would really like you to re-read what you said. King James's 1st wife did not commit adultry. he chose to divorce her and marry again. Jesus says your can divorce IF the reason is "MARITIAL UNFAITHFULLNESS". 

i renounced my faith man! am tattooed, i drink, i smoke, i trip, i listen to metal, i scandalize the living hell out of priests for kicks for the simple reason: am real. am not posing to be someone am not. am still here aint i? am still living. am still complete. i live my life the way i want it. i have done EVERYTHING against the "word" of "god" which was written by man. until someone can prove to me what am saying is wrong and that the bible is indeed the true way i dont see me walkin into a church for a mass unless am chasing tail or am SO wasted i wanna scare the priest.

am not asking anyone to renounce their faith. am askin people to stop questioning and tryin to prove the existance of god and just believe! if you believe thats all that matters. why do u care if others dont believe? i for one dont care if you or anyone for that matter holds steadfast in the belief of heaven and hell or Of god and the devil or of vampires and werewolfs or of pixies and gnomes. why should i? its your choice. i didnt ask you believe in em. dont ask me to either. just as i respect your decision respect mine.


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## Guest

oh yea i also eat pork and camel meat along with snake, rabbit, bison, deer, even alligator! man am sure gonna fry in hell! on 2nd thoughts maybe this life is really hell! LOL


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## cossie333

a bunch of story makers lol

i mean wheres the proof santa or easter bunnies not real lol


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## emc7

lol, you can't prove there's no santa, no EB, no UFO, no bigfoot. You can't say 'I can prove it doesn't exist" until you've searched everywhere at once and not found any. And then you have to prove that time and space are all there is. They never found Nessie, they looked over the whole loch, but it could have eluded the search. You can only say "Not proven" or "I don't believe".

Oddly enough, dragons (or at least lizards big enough to eat people) and giant squid are real and new ones are still being discovered. "Unicorn" horns turned out to be from Rhinos or narwhals, both fantastic and unbelievable creatures to the Europeans who saw the horns. So I can't really blame anyone for looking for currently "unproven" entities. But since I don't trust human beings, I won't be buying any "PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS" off ebay anytime soon. 

I think the difference between Hinduism and the proselytizing faiths is that, correct me if I'm wrong, people are judged on 'deeds' rather than who you pray to. Faiths where the "heart is weighed" don't bother to convert people, you are either good or you aren't regardless of whether you know any deity's name. You try to get people to "be good" rather than to believe in the "Savior" or whatever "One true path" will save them from 'eternal torment' they would otherwise suffer just because they missed the "Good news". 

Proselytizing is the fastest way to grow a religion, even faster than forbidding birth control and saying "go forth and multiply". So the newest religions tend to be the most avid proselytizers.


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## Guest

IMHO God isn't real because I personally know that no one other than myself could give someone such a great body as mine. Some "super being" has got nothing to do with these sculpted muscles.


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## Guest

My name was mentioned in this thread.


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## Guest

actually Hinduizm is a vast religion. its covers various aspects to it. each sect of the hindu class is divided into groups that are assigned or were assigned specific tasks. like the brahmins who would only be priest, the shatrias the warriors or defenders, so on and so forth. these classes are further subdivided into sub classes and further specif duries assigned to them. Hinduizm is a way of life. 

Here is the catch. you cant convert to a hindu. you need to be born into it.

like all faiths, if you sin, you are allowed to do penance and repent for them. they still preach the basic ten commandments in a modified manner but its still means the same things we christians are meant to follow.

unlike muslims or christianity who are allow people to convert to thier faith, hindu's do not accept a convertee. i know so many hindu - christian/muslim couples. 99% of the time, the hindu converts to a muslim or a christian (because the mosques and churches will not conduct a wedding ceremony unless converted), adopts an islamic/christian name and lives life as a muslim/christian, however, once converted out of the religion you are then considered an out cast. the rest 1% under go an initiation rite and then conduct the hindu wedding ceremony in the temple. however, this does not make them a hindu.

in my 30 odd years of life i have to say this: i havent seen a single muslim mula or a hindu priest attempting to convert a person. granted the hindu's dont. but surprisingly, the muslims neither.

like emc said Proselytizing is prob the easiest way to spread the christian faith. i believe that this is wrong. we cannot afford to make statements like we are the true religion and ours is the one true god. its a politically incorrect statement. but then again, its a matter of opinion.


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## Guest

Wow.....That's a hell of a novel you wrote there Eluviet.

No way am I reading that whole thing.


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## Guest

seedubs1 said:


> Wow.....That's a hell of a novel you wrote there Eluviet.
> 
> No way am I reading that whole thing.


no one asked you man. butt out if you not interested. quit trolling on a thread. IMO you need to get ur fat arse off that chair, let it breath for a while, go out and get a life.


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## Guest

I take it back. Read that.....Fairly well writen and informative.

But yes.....I should go outside and get some sun. Actually, it's dark out. I'll save that for the morning.


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## Guest

I'm actually hindu


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## Guest

sure u are.


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## emc7

"don't feed the trolls"

btw under userCP on, 'edit ignore list' is how to make a specific poster invisible to you.


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## Knight~Ryder

Eluviet said:


> my rosary is worn around my neck at all times. in plain sight.


Why, if you have renounced your faith?



Eluviet said:


> i renounced my faith man! am tattooed, i drink, i smoke, i trip, i listen to metal, i scandalize the living hell out of priests for kicks for the simple reason: am real. am not posing to be someone am not. am still here aint i? am still living. am still complete. i live my life the way i want it. i have done EVERYTHING against the "word" of "god" which was written by man. until someone can prove to me what am saying is wrong and that the bible is indeed the true way i dont see me walkin into a church for a mass unless am chasing tail or am SO wasted i wanna scare the priest.


Does that make you feel good?
And is that really who you are?

As far as "just believing" No, to me that is not good enough. If it wasn't for people who actually vocalized their faith in Jesus Christ and lived out his teachings, we wouldn't be where we are at today. Just believing doesn't get results. By results I mean helping others. I choose not to live for myself and help others in need. I don't just mean on here. I mean it in my day to day life. We need to stop looking at how we can benefit in life and start looking around to see who may need some help, even if it's just to be a comfort in some way, shape, or form.


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## Guest

why? i chose to. am used to wearing it. it feels weird with out it. happy? i wear it for the simple reason. i have my reasons and am not even gonna try and expalin it to you.

yea! it does make me feel good to scare the crap out of a fake priest.

helping people is fine. helping people by dangling stuff in front of them is called BAITING! lets see you help someone with out expecting them to convert to your faith. i have seen more than enough of those kind of christians. i think its time they backed off. else people are gonna start pulling out thier guns and thats not be very helpful to you or faith. in punjab a few people burnt the crap out of the over zealous, self rightous evangelists who were forcing people to convert and if they did they helped them. you dont see people bait non christians here anymore.

and yea dude. thats me. i aint no nice next door boy. am the boy your mom warned you to stay away from. FAR AWAY FROM. am the one you can hear come from 3 blocks away blaring heavy metal well into the 100DB range and smell the weed from my ride a mile away. evil as hell. if you slap me i beat the livin daylights out of you not turn the other cheek. thats me. hell am the one who has a baseball bat, a crowbar and a tire iron on the back seat. you see where am goin with this?


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## emc7

Muslim conversions are common in American cities. But I've never seen Muslim's going door to door. 

Most of the "baiting" here isn't convert or die. It is eat or sleep at our shelter or come have free pizza and listen to our message. Its basically paying for a person's time and forcing them to listen to your message. IMO its annoying, but no worse than giving theme park tickets if you listen to a time-share pitch. Simply the 'high-pressure" form of advertising. Helping stranded motorists, feeding the hungry and other "Christian" acts serve a dual purpose of making a person feel good about himself and his faith and providing opportunities for spreading his message.

People in certain newer faiths proselytize as naturally as they walk, it is so completely integral to their religion. They can pledge not to try to convert people, but they can't stop babbling about the religion that is their entirely life. I can certainly understand certain countries getting upset with foreigners coming over and making new churches. But you don't have to buy. You don't have to "be seduced" by America's materialistic culture either. People hate Americans for being "unGodly" and for our devout missionaries. Oh well.


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## Guest

they dont emc. they preach in public. if you like what u hear ur free to convert.


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## hXcChic22

Eluviet, if evangelists are "forcing" people to convert, than they're not the real deal. 
The Bible says that people should convert because they feel that's the right decision, in THEIR heart and mind, not anyone else's. Nowhere does it say that you should force people to convert. All it says is that you tell them about Jesus, tell them what they need to do to be saved, and help them get whatever they need if they want it (a preacher, reading materials, etc.) 
Anyone who does otherwise is giving real Christians a bad name.


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## Guest

i agree Tori but what exactly do u think the "missionaries" are doin in developing countries?"Come Join Us! we'll give u stuff u need"! *puke*


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## hXcChic22

Like I said, they're not the real deal. 
"Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Just because people call themselves Christians doesn't mean it's so. Most true missionaries will not expect anything in return for what they do except for people to at least LISTEN to what they have to say, and sometimes, they won't even get that much. They'll hold classes, maybe help a village somewhere with its problems, maybe start a little school for kids to get educated, but they won't say "You have to come listen to me and convert in order for me to help you"


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## Guest

and how many of those exist?


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## Plecostomus

Many of those exist.


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## cossie333

im gonna start a thread called 

(proof that the tooth fairies real)


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## Guest

kurnlesfishes said:


> Proof not found


LOL Amen!


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## Guest

Knight~Ryder said:


> Doesnt really matter if you believe or not, doesnt mean its not real. Sometimes we need to check our reality.
> I'm not in it to debate. In fact it's not just a mental concept for me anymore. I live it and experience it. It's not enough for me to just "know" about God.
> 
> I forgot what I was taught about God, it's been all backwards anyhow, just like this life is.
> 
> What I "know" is an experience.
> 
> I know thats one of the best videos Ive come across myself.


************ do you mean you are not into debate? So you are into just forcing your distorted reality upon everyone without logical reasoning?

Sorry but there is no proof for either side of this coin yet, hence why a debate still rages on. Just because you do not wish to participate in debates on it does not mean you have proven anything.


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## cossie333

IMHO hes not real 

but different people have different beliefs


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## Knight~Ryder

Eluviet said:


> why? i chose to. am used to wearing it. it feels weird with out it. happy? i wear it for the simple reason. i have my reasons and am not even gonna try and expalin it to you.
> 
> yea! it does make me feel good to scare the crap out of a fake priest.
> 
> helping people is fine. helping people by dangling stuff in front of them is called BAITING! lets see you help someone with out expecting them to convert to your faith. i have seen more than enough of those kind of christians. i think its time they backed off. else people are gonna start pulling out thier guns and thats not be very helpful to you or faith. in punjab a few people burnt the crap out of the over zealous, self rightous evangelists who were forcing people to convert and if they did they helped them. you dont see people bait non christians here anymore.
> 
> and yea dude. thats me. i aint no nice next door boy. am the boy your mom warned you to stay away from. FAR AWAY FROM. am the one you can hear come from 3 blocks away blaring heavy metal well into the 100DB range and smell the weed from my ride a mile away. evil as hell. if you slap me i beat the livin daylights out of you not turn the other cheek. thats me. hell am the one who has a baseball bat, a crowbar and a tire iron on the back seat. you see where am goin with this?


There is so much I could reply with everything you have said. There is so much hypocrisy in this message I don't even want to refute anything you have said. There would be no point and would only instill more hatred in you.

Maybe you are not even this way but because of the internet anyone can be anything they want. Who knows. 

It's your personal journey. 

The point I have been trying to make is that we all should help and uplift one another. It can be so easy to get into debates and forget the real reason why we are here in the first place. Honestly though look at what you have said here. Do you feel good by saying all that?


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## Knight~Ryder

*A recovery debate that is heard often is the battle of wills, when one is following GOD's will or self-will. The difference is the feeling that accompanies the choice. GOD's will is defined as a higher order, being of service to others and living selfless. Where self-will is the determination to have one's way, to get what is most desired and at times no matter the cost.

Self-will is the undisciplined need to achieve desires, running after the next get rich quick scheme, perhaps seeking out the next person to become romantically involved with or a new job. Self-will decides what is required to feel good again, much the same as using drugs, alcohol, gambling or other risky behaviors to feel that rush, to feel good. Self-will says that you are not good enough the way you are, there is lack in your life and it is your goal to achieve it no matter what. Selfishness is the primary role in self-will, bringing discontent and disdain to the person who lives this path. The dictates of self-will must be followed at all costs, the goal is to attain the object of desire, because once this is attained you will feel great again, a sense of wholeness and accomplishment. You will be cured, fixed and acceptable, finally.

The problem with self-will is that it is never enough, the goal is never accomplished, and you never keep that good feeling. The same behaviors that keep a person addicted to the substance or behaviors drive the self-will. When you begin the actions it does feel great, you have forgotten everything that bothered you, no problems or worries exist, at least for a short time. When the high wears off you are back at ground zero again with a need to feel that high again. The high gives you confidence, security and a sense of accomplishment, if only for a short time. It is illusive and self-defeating behavior, the more it is practiced the worse you feel, banged up, beat up and defeated.*


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## Guest

/shakes his head


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## Knight~Ryder

Knight~Ryder said:


> *A recovery debate that is heard often is the battle of wills, when one is following GOD's will or self-will. The difference is the feeling that accompanies the choice. GOD's will is defined as a higher order, being of service to others and living selfless. Where self-will is the determination to have one's way, to get what is most desired and at times no matter the cost.
> 
> Self-will is the undisciplined need to achieve desires, running after the next get rich quick scheme, perhaps seeking out the next person to become romantically involved with or a new job. Self-will decides what is required to feel good again, much the same as using drugs, alcohol, gambling or other risky behaviors to feel that rush, to feel good. Self-will says that you are not good enough the way you are, there is lack in your life and it is your goal to achieve it no matter what. Selfishness is the primary role in self-will, bringing discontent and disdain to the person who lives this path. The dictates of self-will must be followed at all costs, the goal is to attain the object of desire, because once this is attained you will feel great again, a sense of wholeness and accomplishment. You will be cured, fixed and acceptable, finally.
> 
> The problem with self-will is that it is never enough, the goal is never accomplished, and you never keep that good feeling. The same behaviors that keep a person addicted to the substance or behaviors drive the self-will. When you begin the actions it does feel great, you have forgotten everything that bothered you, no problems or worries exist, at least for a short time. When the high wears off you are back at ground zero again with a need to feel that high again. The high gives you confidence, security and a sense of accomplishment, if only for a short time. It is illusive and self-defeating behavior, the more it is practiced the worse you feel, banged up, beat up and defeated.*


Some hard hitting stuff right there hey. Digest on that for awhile.


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## Guest

i've met some really religious people on here like hXc and broot but they have the deceny to stop after a while. while u on the other hand cant seem to get the hint.

maybe this will help. 

you really outta stop shovelling things down people's throat just cos u belive in it dude. we are all not the same. i for one know am nothing like u. my faith and beliefs are just as wrapped and twisted as i like em to be. 

God's Will? i guess it was "God's Will" for and my lil sister to see our mom beaten up everynight while we were growin up. i guess it was "God's Will" that at 17 i lost the one girl i loved to a reckless driver he is walkin free while i held her lifeless body in my arms. every day her parents and i miss her "God's Will"?. "God's Will" that my best friend was raped multiple times and those guys got away scot free? "God's Will" that my drummer was run over by a goods carrier truck who lost control while he was sittin on a bench mindin his own business? "God's Will" that my dad had to commit sucide and my mom had to find him hangin from the fan? if thats "God's Will" well his will can take a flyin effing F! "God's Will" my hairy rear end! oh did i mention that my old was living life accordin to "God's Will" of helping others selflessly? offered help with no intention of return? offered councelling to the troubled? u see why i have trouble believing in "God's Will"? 

i'll live my life on MY WILL! seriously Knight. its time u quit posting hypotical statements randomly found on the internet. real life is a ********************. deal with it. hiding behind hypothical statements will only curb the rage but one day it will all come up to the surface and at that point no amount of faith will save u from being committed to an institution.


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## Knight~Ryder

All you spoke about there was evil really. Not about God. If you have read any of my recent posts on this thread, my life was anything but....nice.

I could share all the horrible things that happened in my life. My father leaving before I was born, my mother raising 3 of us on her own with no food to eat. Me living on my own at the age of 15 independently. Witness horrible tragedies that I will never get into because that was all the past. I don't need to dwell on them. I was able to rise above it all. Now I have a wonderful family that I have raised unlike my past and I will continue to raise them in genuine love. 

Many of us go through trials and tribulations, I feel for everyone who goes through these things and for all the people across the globe. Not just here in North America where we really have only one perspective.

We all have shared many things on this thread and I'm sure more then just I have enjoyed this. We have been civilized and most of us have treated each other with respect. If you were to meet me I'm sure you wouldn't have said half the things you just stated about me but that's fine. As a salesman I have come across many and I enjoy meeting all who come through my business. I have learned a lot and I still strive to be humble enough to learn more. Just remember many strive to learn and never come to the knowledge of the truth...

Anyhow concerning your earlier posts about hurting christians. That is nothing new to me.

Many of the apostles were martyred for their faith. Matthew the tax collector was pinned to the ground and beheaded in Ethiopia. James was cast down from the temple tower and had his head smashed by a club. Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross in Edessa. Bartholomew was beaten to death by pagan idolaters.Thomas was tortured, run through with spears, and thrown into flames. And Peter was crucified upside down, saying he did not consider himself worthy to be crucified in the same manner as the Lord Jesus Christ. I also recall that John the Baptist preached his head off.
And before him, Jeremiah preached himself into imprisonment in a miry dungeon.
And before him, Micaiah preached himself into chains and a daily ration of the bread and water of affliction.
And before him, Elijah preached the brook dry, his only source of bodily sustenance at the time.... See More
And before they all, Abraham preached himself into estrangement.

Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution - 2Timothy 3:12

*See the resemblance?*


We are not better then anyone else.
Christians start out pretty much like everyone else. We're sometimes nice, at other times surly. We're often selfish, angry, and egotistical...sometimes kind and generous. The good news is that somewhere along the way God begins the process of transforming us so that we're more like Jesus. Considering the kind of person Jesus was, that sounds great...but the bad news is that until God gets well into the transformation process a person is often remarkably similar to what he was before he became a Christian. That's often not so great.

So: what do we do in the meantime? Well, fortunately for us, God gave us some instructions. The Bible tells us pretty plainly how to be more Christlike:

Romans 13:14 tells us to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts".

And that's not all...there's more! Not only are we supposed to 'put on Christ', we're also supposed to put on humility:

1 Peter 5:5 says "You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another...".

We're also supposed to put on something called 'the new self':

Ephesians 4:23-24 says that we should "...be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth".

Colossians 3:9 explains a bit more:

Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him...".

* And, we're told to put on:
* a heart of compassion
* kindness
* humility
* gentleness
* patience
* love

You get the picture. We're supposed to "put on" a whole bunch of things. In essence, we're supposed to act like Jesus until we become like Jesus. There's an old saying: "the clothes make the man". The general idea is that what you wear affects how you feel about yourself...and that by dressing like the person you want to be you will act like that person and eventually become that person. When the Bible tells us to "put on" those things, it's saying that we should act like Jesus. If we act like Jesus acted we will eventually become like Him.

Many non-Christians consider Jesus to have been a virtuous man. As Christians, our goal should be to be viewed in the same way. One last Bible verse...1 John 4:12: No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and His love is made complete in us". If we act like Jesus acted we become an example of what God is like. So, the next time you feel like just being yourself...don't.

If any of this makes me fit for the institution then so be it. Just because I don't buy into the world system and found another way that has changed my life 100% to where I was to who I am now does not make me insane. You can choose to read everything that was said here or ignore it. It's your journey.


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## Guest

are u saying i havent? is that what ur doing?

LOL u actually sound like my crazy old man! he could quote the bible quite well. for all u know u could be like him under all that "godly" crap!


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## Guest

oh by the way, quoting the bible? LOL written by man. LOL sure. am gonna buy that truck of crap. which part of the last few posts didnt u figure out that i dont belive in the bible? in fact i dont trust anyone who is such a fanatic hell bent on provin to others in what they belive is the absolute truth and that the other's opionion is wrong!

get off your high arsed horse already.


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## Knight~Ryder

Say what you must but

The signs are obvious, they are everywhere
All that we hear about is the gloom and despair
Too many would be prophets saying
"Its the end of it all"
Cause mother earth cant take much more
The hammers gonna fall

So nature has its needs, that's a lesson learned
But it appears to me there are greater concerns
Cause we can save the planet
Thinking we will somehow survive
But father time is calling us
To save somebody's life

So I wont bend and I wont break
I wont water down my faith
I wont compromise in a world of desperation
What has been I cannot change
But for tomorrow and today
I must be a light for future generations

If we could find a way to preserve our faith
So those who follow us
See the price that was paid
Then maybe when they question
What its gonna take to survive
They'll find the strength to carry on
In what we leave behind

Looking in the eyes of the children
Knowing that tomorrow is at stake
When the choice is up to them
Will they have the strength to say

We wont bend and we wont break
we wont water down our faith
We wont compromise in a world of desperation
What has been we cannot change
But for tomorrow and today
We must be a light for future generations


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## TheOldSalt

Alright that it. Enough is enough. 
I should have shut down this thread months ago.

Yes, Eluviet, all that stuff was God's will. God is a real bastard sometimes.
Why am I taking a side in this all of a sudden?
One thing I've noticed in this thread time and time again is that despite all their complaining about it regarding KnightRyder, it's the atheists who seem to have the most strongly pathological need to get in people's faces and express themselves with the most hatefilled, vitriolic enthusiam. It gets annoying.
Yes, this thread has gone on way, WAY too long. Yes, KR keeps saying stuff you don't like. However, you others are the ones who keep egging him on, so what the heck did you expect?

This thread is toast and history.


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