# new fantails and a black moore-need help!



## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

So I bought 4 goldfish from petsmart (I know, that is where the problem starts of course). I knew that their survival was up in the air when I brought them home, but I figured I could give it a shot. Current home: 40 gal breeder tank with bubbler, gravel and filter plus decorations. Filter didn't have an actual filter in it until yesterday but they were only filterless for a day.

I have never had goldfish before, but I have had plenty of tropical fish and I have bettas as well.
That being said I have a few newbie questions and a question about what might possibly be making these guys sick.

Newbie question: How can you tell the difference between a fantail being just fat or it being bloated (constipated) or having dropsy? They look all bloated to me, but it could just be normal for a fantail, a picture of a healthy young fantail would be awesome!!

Sick question: yesterday all 4 were swimming happily, back and forth, playing in the filter and looking for food. tonight the three fantails were underneath the filter, just barely moving about and had somewhat clamped fins-at least the dorsal was down and they were barely moving the other 2 fins to keep themselves off the gravel. The moore was still happily swimming picking up gravel and spitting it out like he was for the past couple days. 

When I fed them tonight they all were eager to eat and as soon as they finished they continued their search for more like they did yesterday. 

Obvious sick symptoms: My biggest has some whitish film(its the best I can describe it, its not spots but its not large or slimy looking film either) on his tail and the very top of his dorsal fin. One of the smaller ones looks to be more bloated than all the rest but otherwise no obvious signs of illness.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!!


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Is this tank a brand new set up? If so, then I assume it is not cycled yet. Goldfish are huge waste producers (they make a lot more waste than tropicals generally speaking) and starting a brand new tank with 4 at once is way overloaded. My guess is that you already have toxic levels of ammonia in the tank and need to do a big water change. Have you tested your water yet? And if so, what are the numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH?

It is possible the fish came diseased, box stores often don't have quality fish. 

Fantails and moores are fancy goldfish, and should have a rounded, egg-shaped body. If they are extremely swollen with dropsy, their scales will pine-cone and start sticking out away from their bodies. It is hard to tell what is going on with their health because their symptoms could be from bad water quality, disease, etc. It will be easier to make more specific suggestions once we know the water parameters.

At this point, I'd test the water, do some large water changes (50%) and consider returning some of the fish until the tank is cycled (if it is not).


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## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

Yes the tank is a new setup. Its been up since friday- The gravel has been previously used by my bettas as have some of the decorations. I used *cycle packets and let the tank run for a day with the packets some aquarium salt and the decorations while the fish were in a 20 gal. I transferred the fish from the 20 to the 40 on saturday and by monday they were acting funny like I said. today I came home to the big one with the clamped fins under the filter, but the rest were swimming just fine. Again when I fed them they went over to eat like normal. I will go out and buy a test kit but I really would rather not have to return any fish I am a sucker for saving the unhealthy or unsavable and would hate to return them to their death when I can try to prevent it. 

thanks for letting me know they are naturally chubby I will just keep my eyes on on chunky to make sure he has no other signs of illness. As for the white on the big one I am inclined to think it might be fin rot because of where its located. Should I try any medication? I bought some tetra fizz tabs for fungus and bacteria but have been weary to use them since the tank is so new and since I can't be sure if they are sick or what they have. thanks a lot for bearing with me!*


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

Can you post some photos of the one you think has fin rot?

I would hold off treating it right now until we know the water parameters. Sometimes conditions like that will resolve themselves if water problems are corrected. Lets see what your water tests show. Try to get a test kit that uses drop reagents, not test strips. Something like the API freshewater master test kit.


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## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

So crazily enough I lost my wallet yesterday- and my fish looked to be doing ok- I didn't notice clamped fins etc. they looked happy. 

Of course today I come home to Ich!!! All over all of them and I'm so upset that somehow I must have missed a spot when I first brought them home or that I might have unknowingly caused it. 

I added more aquarium salt and added an overhead heat lamp since I have a screen lid and don't have a heater currently- obviously not expecting to need one for a goldfish tank. 

As I lost the wallet and my plan had been to buy the test kit this weekend (I get paid friday) I am now postponed to when I am able to get my stuff back. 

What can I do in the meantime? Is raising the temps and adding salt going to help with the ich or should I go ahead and buy rid ich or similar? I had bought fungus tabs but Ich isn't a fungus so they will do no good. 

Oh poor little goldies! I hope I can get them over this hump soon!

Thanks so much again for all your help!


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## Revolution1221 (Apr 20, 2010)

if its only gold fish in the tank try some strong meds like coppersafe they can handle it and it works great. you can also use aquarium salt and bring the temp up to help the coppersafe fight the ich. your nitrogen cycle probably isn't complete yet so your levels are probably in dangerous areas right now which probably put stress on the goldfish and caused the ich to come out.


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## pinetree (Nov 29, 2009)

I'm very lucky in that I haven't had to treat ich in over 20 years, so I haven't tried either of these methods myself. However, a lot of goldfish experts recommend Quick Cure if you want to try a medicated approach.

If you want to use salt to cure it, here is an excellent link to treating ich with salt for goldish:

http://thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/treating-ich-with-salt.html


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## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

Thanks everyone. I read the link it was pretty helpful-Thanks again- I'm not exactly sure I want to fully go into treating with salt only I might borrow a few bucks and go out to grab some coppersafe(only 4 goldies in the tank) or quickcure and keep the heat lamp on. 

I'll keep you updated!


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## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

I think I'm killing the poor goldies. I did a water change yesterday and added what I thought was an appropriate amount of salt with the water that I put in. They seemed ok, but this morning I woke up and they were all laying on the floor. I thought they were dead but when I tapped on the glass they got up and swam around. I quickly did a 50 percent water change and gravel vaccum and added new water- no more salt. They seemed happier for about an hour then slowly the littlest/most infected one was back on the floor. Another hour and my biggest one the one I thought had some fin rot was also back on the floor. They lay there looking dead, but will come up and swim every once in a while. They are all eating just fine. The other two haven't been back on the floor since this morning. They seem to have the least amount of ich dots in fact the black moore only has a few on him. I just bought some coppersafe- is it safe to use it now that they have gotten a bit worse, or should I do more water changes and see if that helps? The ich spots seemed to be less on all of them though as of this morning-poor goldies


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

change the amount of salt slowly! Too much added or subtracted too fast will cause problems. Its common for fish to be on the bottom when you first turn the light on, they do sleep. But they should be up and about within tens of minutes.

For ich, try something. Pick one med and treat as directed for 3 days and see if they are getting better or worse. If you see improvement, keep on for 14 days to be sure to get it all (you may need to stop, do a big water change and start over, follow the directions). If it doesn't seem to be helping, or the med seems to be hurting them, do a huge water change and start a new med.

Always use dechlor, keep the salt level in water change water close to whats in the tank, keep the temp close to whats in the tank.


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## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

Thanks. I added the coppersafe- looks like I'm going to have to go out and buy another bottle as I am not used to having such a large tank to deal with and only bought one medium sized one- halfway gone now after 10 teaspoons for a 40 gal tank. There isn't much of a difference since I added the coppersafe- they seem to be alternating laying on the bottom- I think they are simply exhausted from the itching and swimming about because of the ich and they just lay for a while then get back up. since I typed my first response today the black moore and the other have been swimming about until just now. Now they are laing on the floor while the big one and little swim. Poor things  

I hope the coppersafe works and they get over this hump soon so I can have a happy tank. I think I am done with touching the salt though- I was very freaked out this morning when I found them all looking as bad as they do. Pet shop gave me a cup to put salt in for regular use and I think I'm going to go that route and leave it be after that once the ICH is cleared. 

Thanks so much for your help!


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## Mari (Jan 24, 2005)

Not sure how much better or worse they are. My black moore which was so far the healthiest seems exhausted today- I added another filter last night- an aqueon 20-50 in addition to my tetra 20 gal that had been running for a few days. It almost seems like the flow of 2 filters plus the bubbler is too much for them. They are hiding where there is the least amount of current and seem to be better now that I've turned the 20 gal filter off and put the aqueon on low. I also lowered the flow of the air stone. What do you guys recommend?


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