# Pond questions



## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

We are planning on putting a pond with a stream/waterfall in our backyard and we need some advice (we being my family....I'm not schizophrenic, lol). The stream will start near a tree (yes I realize I will have leaves in the pond a lot and I am prepared to have to scoop them out often) and be 8-12 inches wide and meander 8-10 feet (all measurements are approximate) to a freeform pond, whose dimensions would be about 6 feet long, 4 feet wide, and 2 feet deep in the deepest spot with shelves on the sides for plants. 
1. Does this sound like it would work fine? 

I would like to have either koi or goldfish in there and I am planning on putting a common pleco in there too. (If he seems to be doing not so well then I have a place I can take him to. I live in Florida so it doesn't get very cold here in the winter.) 
2. Does the depth sound alright for some goldfish or koi? I am leaning toward goldfish because I have heard they don't bother the plants as much as koi do and I would like to have plants in there (maybe water lilies and some perimeter plants). The kind of goldfish I would like to get are comets. 
3. Are those hardy? 
4. Is it ok to mix goldfish with koi? (just out of curiosity)


Also this is the liner and underlay I am considering : http://pondtechnology.com/pages/epdm.html
http://www.pondliner.com/Underlay.htm

5. Does anyone know about the quality of this? I was thinking about getting the 10 feet by 15 feet sizes of each. 
6. Do you think that is enough?

Now the mechanical stuff. I don't know much about it. 
7. How many gph would I need for the filter and pump? I would like to err on the side of too much filtration instead of the other way. 
8. Would a submersible or a external pump and filter be better? 
9. Should I put the pump and filter in a skimmer box or have it in the bottom of the pond?

10. Does a pond with plants need to be cycled like an aquarium before fish are put in there? Or would it be ok to cycle with a fish?

Sorry I have so many questions but I want to make sure it is done right. Thanks in advance!  :fish:


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

Anybody know any answers or have any suggestions??


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## GaryTheGoldfish (Jul 8, 2005)

It's OK to put goldfish with koi. The pleco isn't such a good idea, though- they tend to latch on to the golds. 

It cycles like a fish tank. But, as there's more water than an average tank, it shouldn't be a big problem. Just add gradually.


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

1.Anything works. Depending on many things. (Sorry not so helpful there)

2. The depth should be fine. You are in a warm enough climate where you dont have to worry about freezing.

3. Comets are hearty. If you are luckey you can find these with white and orange colors similar to the koi. 

4. It is fine to mix them but You could have more fish in the pond if you stick to only comets.

5. Sorry im not sure about the quality. But Im sure it should be better than a pool liner if it was designed for ponds.

6. You can never have enough. LOL

Now the mechanical stuff. 

7. http://www.norbreck-aquatics.co.uk/size_of_filter.htm They have a calculator for figuring out your gallons.
http://www.springdalewatergardens.com/articles/filterfaqs.html#2

8. Would a submersible or a external pump and filter be better? It depends on your landscaping and the depth of the pond.

9. Should I put the pump and filter in a skimmer box or have it in the bottom of the pond? I would put it in the pond.

10. Does a pond with plants need to be cycled like an aquarium before fish are put in there? Or would it be ok to cycle with a fish? It probably does need to be cycled but because of its size you could probably start with a few fish and every month or two add more and never really see a cycle.

I did some searching and there is not alot out there on the net about this. Maybe Ill have to set somthing up on my site.


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

Thank you fish_doc and Garythegoldfish! How many comets could I put in there? The pond part itself will be about 150 gallons BUT there will be a stream too which will add gallons. Also would it be ok to put some rosy red feeders in there with the goldfish? I know they aren't that spectacular looking but it would be nice to have a few smaller fish in there in my opinion. And I guess I am lucky becasue I found some beautiful comets with colors similar to koi. I love the way they look! Thank you!!


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## GaryTheGoldfish (Jul 8, 2005)

Koi are out of the question for a 150g, unless you only want to keep them for a while. You could fit around 4 comets in there, but 3 might be better (full sized). 

Full sized golds would eat the rosy red minnows. 

If you want smaller/other fish in the tank, you could have smaller varieties of goldfish. Or golden orfe (but you'd need v. good oxygen levels).


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## mlefev (Apr 19, 2005)

1. My granparents have a pond setup that has about a 24 foot long stream/waterfall setup, with about 3 small pools of water on the way down. They have 6 koi and have kept them successfully for about 6 years. The dimension of their pond (also freeform) is about 8 ft long, 3 1/2-4 feet wide and probably 18 inches deep, it is formed entirely of concrete, with a makeshift black plastic liner underneath (don't ask my how, but it worked for them). The concern I have is the tree. If it has large roots, it could eventually crack the pond if it grows to be very large.

Koi and goldfish can be kept together. They have about 3 goldfish also, and about 100 koi babies recently (oops...they're trying to get rid of those to people in town). I don't know about the pleco...they have odd temprements.

2. The depth is ok, but if you can dig a deeper pond, it might be better. Afterall, one more bag of cement isn't that expensive, and could add quite a lot of depth to the pond. Koi aren't hard on water-lilies..other plants, yes they're a bit rough on.

3. no experience with comets.

4. See #2

5. I would go with pondliner.com I have another friend that used their stuff, and they've had no leaks, and no problems.
If you can afford to buy more, buy more...especially if you're not certain of the final dimensions. If you can't afford more, it will be enough in my book. I don't know how well it works from personal experience, but it seems to work ok.

7. i'll go with fishdoc on this. The filter my grandparents have is about a 4x4x4 cube and it pushes a LOT of water. You aren't just concerned with circulation in the pond, you also have to think about it pushing the water uphill to the waterfall. You at least need something that moves a few hundred gallons an hour to compensate for the uphill action.

8. Submersible is easier to maintenance and is not susceptible to the elements (sunlight, etc.) like external filtration would be...which leads me to 9. I would go all underwater. Especially if you have other pets...dogs, cats, etc. They like biting and playing with noisy things that they can find out in the yard. (and relieving themselves on them too).
10. I'm not sure...No one that I have ever known has cycled their pond. 


10. Does a pond with plants need to be cycled like an aquarium before fish are put in there? Or would it be ok to cycle with a fish? My friend threw a couple of small bass in there with a koi (odd combo, I know). They were fine, but the bass got too large so they put them back in the pond downhill from their house (also their pond, so no real contamination going on). 

If I can clarify anything for you just ask. Thankfully, neither me nor my family has killed off pond fish. Now, some got eaten by mountain lions, but can't do much about that


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

Thank you mlefev and Garythegoldfish!

Gary: I searched golden orfe on the internet and a few sites said they get to 18 inches. :? Do you know of any otehr fish that are smaller than that that goldfish woudln't eat? Also, I rechecked the measurements and it's about 180 without the stream so it's probably 200 gallons at least. Also, those are the minimun measurements. It wil probably be a little bigger than that. Do you think I could put 6 comets in there? Or maybe 4 and some smaller fish if I can find something that would work?

Mlefev: Wow! Where do your grandparents live that their fish got eaten by mountain lions?? That's weird! I've never heard of that happening! It sounds kinda neat actually, except for poor fish  . 
I don't think the tree will be any problem. The only thing it might affect is the stream, which won't be that deep so it should be fine. I think the pond will be far enough away for it not to get messed up. I hope so at least. I hadn't even thought about that. Thanks for telling me that.
I think we will dig it deeper than that, but not by a whole lot. Too much deeper and we will run a bigger risk of it getting messed up by tree roots. Besides, it is really hard to dig where there are tree roots  .


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## GaryTheGoldfish (Jul 8, 2005)

4 and some smaller fish would be great. But I can't really think of any common smaller pond fish. 

You could go around your local aquatic shops, and see if they've got any rarer species in stock.


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## mlefev (Apr 19, 2005)

They're up in the mountains (go figure...lol) in northern California. I've had the priviledge of seeing a mountain lion up close (eep) it was close enough that it could have chased me but it didn't appear hungry or it just wanted to dissappear. My grandparents had their whole backyard enclosed, but the thing got in and killed a couple of their koi and dissappeared. All my grandpa found was footprints the next morning. So he reinforced the fence as much as it could.


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