# I Need Help



## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

hi guys im new here and i need some help !!!
i have 2 tanks:

1st one is a 15 gallon tank with one redbelly piranha ...2 convics...1 black shark and one headstander (which attacked my irridescent shark this morning)

2nd one is a 30 gallon with 2 baby whales...2 irridescent sharks ...1 bala and one window sucker


now the situation is this.....i know eventually ill have to get a bigger tank....and both of them are still cycling....had them for 2 weeks.....i am constantly doing water changes to try and put the ammonia down...

AT first i had all of these guys in one tank....but then i noticed my red-belly was eating up my sharks.....
so i bought another tank....
now this morning...my bigger irridescent shark whitish...and the headstander was picking at him...so i took him out....
he hasnt moved for 5 hours...

all i wanna know is what killed my id shark...is it stress ????cuz he s wayy bigger than the headstander....is it the ammonia...which is at 2
(im constantly doing water changes)

WHAT DO IT DO ???? and yes i know ill have to eventually get a bigger tank...

all i want is to make sure my other fish arent gonna die 
and what about the ammonia ?????


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

this is what he looked like this morning.....his skin was all whitish.....i dont think it was ich....but he has some sort of pale goo on his skin...im really scared....


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Well if you have only had the tanks for two weeks, they did not get the proper time to cycle, it can take up to 4 weeks to cycle the tank w/o fish. So that is probably why your ammonia levels are high. Not sure what the problem is with the shark as far as the white slime. But it could be stress from being attacked or that the water parameters are out of control. The only thing you can do is to do water changes but don't do too much or it won't cycle. Do partial changes of about 10 to 20% at the most. When I had an ammonia problem I switched to Reverse Osmosis water and it did help tremendously because its pure water to start out with. A lot of local fish stores will sell that, so hopefully you can find some. Have you checked your nitrites and nitrates levels? Those are more dangerous and if high could also be killing your fish. And not sure the compatibitily of some of those fish being together. And yes the Bala Shark alone will reach up to 18 inches so you will definitely need larger tanks for just that one, not considering the others. Good luck and I hope you can get it worked out! Hopefully they can survive the high or toxic levels, but definitely check the other parameters such as the nitrites and nitrates.


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

how do i keep ammomnia and the nitrites and everything else under control ? 

just by doing water changes ?how often ???? evry day ?????

btw...these guys made me put cycle in my tank....so when do i change the water ?


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

welcome to the forums. i suggest you try to return as much of the fish as you can until your tanks cycle. and follow what bearleader said.


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

i cant return my fish !!!! are you nuts....2 petstores told me just to wait 48 hours before putting fish in ......


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

no, im not nuts just trying to help you. it takes much longer than 48 hours for a tank to cycle, unless you use bio spira


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> how do i keep ammomnia and the nitrites and everything else under control ?
> 
> just by doing water changes ?how often ???? evry day ?????
> 
> btw...these guys made me put cycle in my tank....so when do i change the water ?


Well you should have ran a full cycle fishless and don't always listen to pet store ppl, not downing them but they let me in the wrong direction many times. I did the same thing but I set up and tried to cycle in a week even using chemicals. I had nothing but problems in that tank, so much I gave my fish away because I got sick of it. Then the second time I did research first before getting the fish and I cycled the tank for an entire month w/o fish. Now I have never had a problem w/ ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates. And I also switched from tap water to RO water, that is a tremendous help because its pure water to start with. My tap water was already a little high in some parameters. So maybe consider the switch. I prefer no chemicals, and w/ RO water you don't have to add aquasafe. 
And if you already have those probs and don't wanna sacrifice your fish back to the store for credit, then you can do small water changes daily til its under control. Once its under control change once every couple of weeks about 15 to 20% at the most. But even while trying to lower the levels don't do anymore than the above as well. Never do more than a partial change or you'll ruin the cycle and find yourself in the same boat. I learned that the hard way. I thought by doing entire tank changes it would cure it, well it did til the next day and I was back at square one. Its an annoying prob but now that you are there its something you'll have to deal with. Now if you get another tank, make sure to leave it empty w/ water only and let it cycle close to a month. I know this is boring but it works!
I don't like relying on chemicals unless its medicine or something necessary. So I'd do the partial changes daily til you lower the levels, or else you're fish might parrish if they are too high. I had some fish survive some deadly levels but they were more hardy than the sharks. Hopefully this will work. But I'd try the RO water if you can get access to it, it will help a great deal putting good clean pure water in there. 

Let me know if you have other questions I'll try my best to help by what i've dealt with.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Also while you are having probs remember to not overfeed! You want to cut down on the amount of wastes in the tank. They will eat as long as you put food in, doesn't mean they need it. But too much food can leave uneaten food in the tank and create more fish waste which means more ammonia, and that turns into nitrites then nitrates. I cut down on feedings when mine was really really bad. I felt bad for them but it had to be done because I was at seriously dangerous levels. Do you have a gravel vacuum? You need one to suck out the dirty food and waste from the rocks. It will also help. Just vacuum the gravel and only do about 20% at the most. That doesn't seem like much but too much screws up the cycle as well. And once you have it fixed, you can do this bi-weekly. But until then do it every day or two to cut down on the high levels, so they don't become toxic.


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

Thank You So Much Guys For Helping Me Out....all The Other Ppl Were Just Blasting Me....so Daily Water Change 20 % ???


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

By The Way....i Just Did What The Big Al Ppl Told Me.....wait 48 Hours Before Buying Fish ....which I Did.....


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

AND ALSO....IM PUTTING cycle IN THE WATER....SO SHOULD I PUT SOME BACK EVERYTIME I DO A WATER CHANGE ?


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> By The Way....i Just Did What The Big Al Ppl Told Me.....wait 48 Hours Before Buying Fish ....which I Did.....


Well a lot of times fish store ppl have kids that know just a little about fish so they assume by what they've heard they are right. And heck I have friends that have kept fish for YEARS and still have screw ups it happens. Nothing w/ keeping fish is ever perfect, and I still learn everyday. And yes do the partial changes everday til you see these levels are going down. Also not sure if you are using the sticks to check parameters, liquid tubes, or pens. Pens are awesome but expensive. I'd recommend at least get the liquid tubes they are better and more accurate than the sticks. You defnitely need something to check ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and your ph..at the least. You should also know the GH..general hardness of your water. But its ok if you don't. You can still have a successful tank.. I'm just really cautious because I have Discus..and they require pristine water. But once you get it fixed vacuum the gravel and replace the water you took out about 20% every two weeks. And like I said if you can get a hold of Reverse Osmosis water that will help out tremendously! But not absolutely necessary. But I'll tell ya once I switched I have never had one prob ever again! I even use RO water for my betta hehe


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> Thank You So Much Guys For Helping Me Out....all The Other Ppl Were Just Blasting Me....so Daily Water Change 20 % ???


And no need for ppl to blast you! We all gotta learn somewhere, and you just did what you were told, nothing wrong w/ that. But now you know a little more! And you will get better w/ time and experience. We all still ask each other things, thats why we are here


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> AND ALSO....IM PUTTING cycle IN THE WATER....SO SHOULD I PUT SOME BACK EVERYTIME I DO A WATER CHANGE ?


Well I don't use chemicals personally but if memory serves from when I did, I would assume you would. But make sure you add the proper amount by calculating what you take out. Lets say it says one cap for 5 gallons, and you take out 2. Then use around a half a cap instead because the tank will have some in it, and you will just be putting back what little you took out. But I'm not really good w/ chemicals otherwise, just an assumption from when I used to use Discus buffer, thats how I had to do it.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

I would maybe try it w/o the chemicals. I always found that too many chemicals caused me probs. At one point I was using aquasafe, clearwater for cloudiness, easybalance, buffer, ph down or up.. and I think that was half my prob. If your water is cloudy its just due to the cycle not being finished probably. Try to use the least amount of chemicals as possible. Thats why RO water is good, no chemicals at all needed! So much easier!


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

ok thx for the advice....btw my id shark had some sort of thin whitish goo on him.....not a lot....just a bit.....seems like some of my fish have it a bit also....im pretty sure its not ich....but im still a bit scared....what should i do....im already putting melafix in there

here is the pick of my shark right before he died with a bit of white stuff....
but i think that its the stress that killed him.....he got moved....bit....and picked on many times.....

thx in advance !!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Beerleader's info and advice were very good, and chemical-free is nice, but this time it's not gonna work fast enough. You just made too many mistakes which were too big.

First of all, Cycle is worthless. Get some BioSpira or Stability instead, and HURRY. Alternately, you can get some ammolock or amquel, but bear in mind that your tank will probably never cycle right when using these artificial ammonia removal methods. You can also get some zeolite rocks to go in your filter to absorb it.

Next get two bigger tanks, or even just some big plastic containers from WalMart, which gallon for gallon are much cheaper than glass tanks. Separate the fish a bit, especially the piranha. After all that, your fish might stand a chance.

What is the pH of your tanks & tapwater?

By the way, the whales are electric, so in case someone tells you to put salt in that tank for some reason, don't do it. They'll drive the other fish, and each other, crazy.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Here is my take on it - 

1st of all, don't take your lfs's advice. 
2nd of all, RESEARCH! RESEARCH! RESEARCH!
3rd of all, Research!
4th of all, biospira works wonders, cycle does not... 

Why do I say this?
You'll quickly find that the RBP cannot go with any of the fish you have in your tank, and you have some compatibility issues as well as some very large fish that need 125 gallon tanks + .
You'll find that you have a VERY high bioload in your tanks (something that needs to be cured right away). Either do what the old salt said, or take some fish back, or take all your fish back and do the cycle the fishless way. *most lfs's will take fish back, if they don't give them back.
You'll find that the cycle with fish will take a very long time, maybe 4-6 months

We are NOT flaming you here, we are mearly showing where you went wrong, and showing you how to get back on track, as well as make this hobby much easier on you.


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

guys....my red-belly is in another tank....my sharks are in another one.......im just worried bout the whitish thing on the pic on his body ??no ?


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## Huugs (Apr 25, 2005)

It could be any number of things and is most likely stress related. This can be stress caused by bad water conditions (high ammonia for example) or being bullied or many other reasons.

What are the levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate in your tanks?

Lastly buy yourself some biospira if you can get it. Ive read it can cycle your tank in 24 hours which is definately what you need to do. If you cant get that get something called stability which takes a week to work.

By the way anything over 0.5ppm of ammonia or nitrite is harmful to fish.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

Beerleader said:


> And if you already have those probs and don't wanna sacrifice your fish back to the store for credit, then you can do small water changes daily til its under control. Once its under control change once every couple of weeks about 15 to 20% at the most. But even while trying to lower the levels don't do anymore than the above as well. Never do more than a partial change or you'll ruin the cycle and find yourself in the same boat.


I don't see why you shouldn't do big water changes. You won't remove bacteria with doing big water changes (there are no bacteria in the water), and as long as you use tap water conditioner and your water is about the same temp, you won't kill off any of your existing bacteria by changing say 2/3 of the water. 

Some people say this will prolong your cycle, but this is not my experience, and I don't see how it could be the case anyway. How is a concentration of 3ppm ammonia going to help your bacteria grow faster than a 1ppm ammonia (which is what you get after doing a 2/3 water change)? As I understand it, the growth rate of good bacteria is generally limited simply by the fact that it doesn't grow very fast, not by having only small amounts of excess ammonia in the water (say 1ppm or less) rather than large excess amounts of ammonia.

The problem with saying that you should only change 15 to 20% of the water is that is does almost nothing to lower the concentration of the bad chemicals (ammonia & nitrite). Ammonia at 2.4ppm (3ppm after a 20% change) is still very bad, ammonia at 1ppm (3ppm after a 67% water change) is still bad but gives the fish a better chance at surviving.

Until someone explains exactly why doing big water changes is bad for a cycling tank, I will continue to do them, if needed.


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## Huugs (Apr 25, 2005)

I was having a think about this the other day and I think I may have figured out why people say this.
Its not that the bacteria takes longer to build up its that it it takes loner to build up to the level of what the fish produce. If you keep removing the ammonia means the bacteria wont be ablle to get up to the level the fish produce at. Although now I think of it it might not work and I think its a bit difficult to explain.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

But when the tank is fully cycled, you have no ammonia at all in the tank, as the bacteria consume it as soon as it's produced. If you have any ammonia at all in your tank, you've got available to the bacteria the amount that the fish are producing now, plus in addition some excess stuff floating around, so they have more food available to them than in a fully cycled tank. This is true whether it's 1ppm, as a result of a massive water change, or 3ppm, the result of no water change. So why would the bacteria not reach the required population needed, if there's more food available to them than they will have in a fully cycled tank? 

In fact, as far as I can see, keeping the excess ammonia levels down would be beneficial because it would prevent the bacteria populations from growing beyond the level that's needed in a fully cycled tank.

Now if anyone can see the flaw in my reasoning, or knows something about bacteria growth that I don't (which is quite likely, as I know very little about bacteria growth) please correct me!


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> Thank You So Much Guys For Helping Me Out....all The Other Ppl Were Just Blasting Me....so Daily Water Change 20 % ???


FYI i wasnt blasting you, i was just trying to help, but you obviously cant see that. if you didnt add so many fish to the tank so fast, you wouldnt have these problems. and yes i know we all make mistakes, well where do ya think we started at? We still do, and ill be the first to admit it. i was just trying to give you a piece of advice, so NEXT time you wont make the same mistake.


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

oops sorry...double post


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## Lydia (Feb 6, 2005)

I would say go with what The Old Salt or Fishfirst said. And....good luck!

About being blasted, I think it has probably happened to every one of us here at one time. I know when I came here I had way too many too big fish in my tank and got everybody telling me to take them back. But far more often than not, their advice is good and they are telling you for your benefit.


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## Huugs (Apr 25, 2005)

Myra: It made sense in my head but then when i started thinking about how to say it it didnt make as much sense. 
I dunno really now I read back what I said it makes even less sense.

Still like to know though if someone can explain this.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

Myra is right, to a point. If you've got a huge reading of ammonia you won't be starving the bacterial colony per say, but what happens is bacteria colonies exponentially reproduce, leaving problems when they double in population. Bringing ammonia down severly cuts the new generations food source giving you a die off of beneficial bacteria which in turn, makes the cycle last longer. As all of you know I am a firm believer in the fishless cycle, but most of all, I'm lazy. I'm lazy because I rather not do water changes every day, or every other day. I'm lazy because I rather watch my fish than be worried about whether they will survive for the first few days they are in my tank. And I'm lazy because I rather sit at my computer talking to you guys and researching stuff (mostly those crazy ideas) than figuring out how to stop my fish from fighting or killing one another.

Frankly I like the lazy approach to things, as long as you keep up with water changes monthly/bi monthly, scrub that algae weekly, feed those fish daily, and do fishless cycles, how can you get tired or burned out of this hobby?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Oy.
I've tried a few times now to make a coherent response, but I haven't been able to do it.
I'll just say that new tanks get cloudy water for a reason, and that just because a cycled tank doesn't seem to have any ammonia in it, it actually slam-full of the stuff. The amount of ammonia available to the bacteria is the same in both cycled and uncycled tanks, and if you think about it you might figure out what I'm trying to say better than I can figure out how to say it. The general gist of it is that Beerleader is right in that waterchanges do retard bacterial growth by lowering the ammonia to a level much lower than would be actually available in a fully cycled tank. I hope that makes sense. Of course, if the ammonia level gets too high, that too retards bacterial growth, and MyraVan's big water changes are good for keeping things in the optimum range. Both Beerleader and MyraVan are right, but on different points, and under various conditions these can be reversed.

What it really boils down to is the fishload. If the tank is stocked with a heavy load, bigger water changes will be needed to have the same effect as smaller ones in a lightly stocked tank. That should be obvious, yes? If the tank is heavily planted, then toss all this aside and let the plants do all the work. LOL!

In practical application, numerous small waterchanges will allow a tank to cycle faster than big waterchanges while keeping the fish safe. Bigger waterchanges will keep the fish a lot safer but extend the cycling period. The extra time is probably not enough to even worry about, though, and no justification for all this arguing.


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Thanks for explaining why OS. Honestly I didn't know why as far as explaining. All I know is I had this very problem years back when I first started fish keeping. I could NEVER get it under control and I did HUGE water changes and it helped keep them alive but never allowed to tank to cycle properly. It took me forever to figure all this out and why it kept the levels so toxic, then when I stopped doing so much at once and just daily smaller changes it helped..Still never cured the prob but got better. I finally gave my fish away to my friend and started over the proper way a few months later. But glad to know I wasn't saying something too crazy hehehe  Thanks!


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## euRasian32 (May 19, 2005)

Benny: if you don't have patience, it will be a frustrating process. In a couple of months you'll be wiser, thankful, and hopefully enjoying a beautiful tank with the right amount of fish. 

Beerleaders' a hottie.


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

euRasian32 said:


> Beerleaders' a hottie.


what?!? whered that come from?


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## euRasian32 (May 19, 2005)

crap

did i say that out loud? i coulda deleted it but since you quoted me...

looks like my tourette syndrome is coming back.


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## Huugs (Apr 25, 2005)

I wasnt trying to be awkward about water changes just trying to understand why people seem to think different things. I think I do now so thanks a lot.

They say you learn a kew thing everyday and I didnt learn anything from my revision so I guess this was it!


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

ok guys....im in canada ...and bio-spira isnt available here.........my ammonia is still high after water changes.....what should i do now ?


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

btw guys...would it help if i would take a piece of sponge from my friends tank ??????


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

euRasian32 said:


> Benny: if you don't have patience, it will be a frustrating process. In a couple of months you'll be wiser, thankful, and hopefully enjoying a beautiful tank with the right amount of fish.
> 
> Beerleaders' a hottie.


I thought what? as if I might have not really seen that heheh but
Wow thanks!!! hehehe


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## Benny0505 (Jul 19, 2005)

enough with the love connection !!!!! what about the sponge ?????


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## Beerleader (May 31, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> enough with the love connection !!!!! what about the sponge ?????


LOL sorry, Um I would think that might help taking media from one tank that is already cycled to the new one. It can't hurt. I've never had to do that so I'm not schooled in that area, hopefully someone else can answer for sure. But I would assume its a decent idea. Sorry you've had so many troubles lately, I hope you get it worked out and that it doesn't discourage you. Next time you get a tank do a full cycle, and you'll see after that things are actually great and enjoyable! 

Did you get a vacuum to clean the waste from the gravel by the way? And are your readings for ammonia/nitrites/nitrates still high?


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

Benny0505 said:


> btw guys...would it help if i would take a piece of sponge from my friends tank ??????


yes, it would, as long as your friends tank is already cycled


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## ariel (Sep 26, 2005)

benny said he has 2 baby whales. what are these? never heard of an aquarium-sized whale before. got any pics?


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## ariel (Sep 26, 2005)

Hi I am complete beginner eager to learn loads fast. have just inherited 72 litre tank with red finned shark (mega bully) 2 angelfish, 5 gouramis, 2 silver dollars, 1 rainbow fish, 1 catfish & 1 bruno pleco (I love him, he's fascinating). I keep getting conflicting advice from petshops.


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

wow... hahah, I remember that thread... but hey ariel, and welcome to ff! I hope that you stick around and enjoy us here. As for your tank, I see a few problems with your stocking level... mainly, that its just a whole lot of fish for a 20 gallon. Which is probably why your red finned shark is a bully. Most of the fish that you have there need much larger tanks including the red-finned shark, the two angelfish (although a single would do fine), the 5 gouramis (1 would be good unless you get 1 male to two females then I'd get 3), the silver dollars, the rainbow fish is fine but he would like to school with other rainbowfish. Depending on the catfish, but if its not a cory catfish it usually is NOT suitable by a looooong shot (the average large catfish gets around 10 inches) The pleco may or may not be okay depending on the top size (if its a smaller pleco then keep it). 
I suggest the following stocking level if my assumptions are right
1 Angel, 4-6 Rainbowfish, 1 Gourami, and if the catfish is a cory catfish 4-6 cories, and the pleco.


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## Lara (Sep 4, 2005)

Hi Ariel, I agree with fishfirst. I used to love silver dollars but they get big and really need to be kept in a school, angels also get much bigger than people generally realise. Good luck


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## Fishfirst (Jan 24, 2005)

The real issue here is definately overstocking. Even at a 1" of adult fish per gallon she'd be way over the mark. She's doing about 1" of adult fish per liter! If I were you I'd cut down those numbers and some species all together. This will make it a very happy and healthy tank.


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