# Fish Store Pet Peeves



## slevin711 (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey Guys!

I am currently a college student but I am doing my best to research starting a fish/pet store and create a plan for the years to come. I would just like input on some pet peeves at fish stores(anything from LFS to walamrt) besides the obvious lack of knowledge with the common employee. 

I think I have down most of the basic knowledge of starting a business by now and how to make it successful over time, but being someone who completes everything and goes over every detail, I would really like to hear from some people about ways that most fish stores could be improved. 

Thanks in advance guys!


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## betta0fish (Feb 16, 2009)

i would want more variety and better environments for the bettas, they look so cramped in there. i also hate it when there are dead fish in the aquarium:which leads into me not buying any fish.


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## slevin711 (Jul 14, 2009)

Better environment to be stored in at the store or better options for you to store them in?


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## Ghost Knife (Mar 12, 2008)

slevin711 said:


> Hey Guys!
> 
> I am currently a college student but I am doing my best to research starting a fish/pet store and create a plan for the years to come. I would just like input on some pet peeves at fish stores(anything from LFS to walamrt) besides the obvious lack of knowledge with the common employee.
> 
> ...


Most pet stores employees know absolutely nothing. Luckily, there's a really knowledgeable elderly man who works the fish at my local Wal-Mart. Then there's a guy in his 50s that runs the fish department at my local Petsmart who is incredibly smart who has so many fish that he even keeps Koi in multiple bathtubs (as ponds) outside his house.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The chains hire people with no knowledge, but tell them never to admit they don't know. So they make stuff up. When they do hire someone who knows something, they end up quitting in frustration with the stupid stuff 'corporate' makes them do. So I hate absolute assurances. I'd rather have honest ignorance and maybe an in-store internet connection for quick research.

I guess my main pet peeves are the inappropriate fish and the itty bitty tanks sold, usually in combination. The 1/2 gallon tank with pictures of 30 different fish on the box. Oscars, Pacu, peacock bass, iridescent sharks, etc. should be special order fish. No way there are enough big tanks for all the tanks full of little ones in the stores when they all grow up. Along with this is signs that lie. Assorted Africans get 3" max. Yeah, right.

I hate dead fish left in tanks. I complained once at a chain and they said they leave them there until they count them for inventory. Yuck.

Lately, I'm disappointed by the amount of freshwater. All the best stores near me are 90% salt. I know there isn't any money in fresh, but I miss seeing a decent selection. 



And the combination of combined water system with heavy salting of tanks and 'pre-medicating' means that getting a new fish with salt and med-resistant ich or other disease is increasingly likely.


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## xraytetralover (Jun 26, 2008)

I hate the fact that the signs on the fish tanks at my Petsmart don't have correct info. For the common pleco for example, it has the enormous size that it grows to them then says they can live in a 20 gallon... Yeah, right. Plus half the sizes for the tetra are way smaller than what people have actually experienced them growing to.


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## llamas (Jun 29, 2009)

I completely agree with EMC. It burns me up when I see a specialty fish store (LFS) sell those tiny nemo/princess/betta tanks. It especially bugs me when I know that the employees and owners know that the tank is by far too small, but sell it just to make money. 

One thing a petstore definately needs is to look at other pet stores in the area and try to supply the same fish AS WELL AS any fish that may be uncommon in the are, but easy to keep and sellable. Where I am, I can't find a single store that sells khuli loaches. It bugs me a lot. I WANT SOME KLHULIS!!!!!!!!!! Haha

Lastly, it bugs me when an employee tries to sell you all these additives that you usually do not need. I know that they do it to sell, but they can at least ask what kind of tank you have and its requirements and see if you actually need the product. 

I will probably remember more once I post this. I'll update if needed.


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## BV77 (Jan 22, 2005)

Most LFS's here only stock "bread and butter" fish....you know, just the common , best sellers. I think a good LFS should also, order in some odd balls from time to time for the accomplished aquarist. Of course, this would require somewhat knowledgeable employees. If a store here had such oddities from time to time, I'd stop in and look, and probably end up buying some hard goods as well. Otherwise, I continue to buy these items cheaper from the catalogs. Honest help goes a long way, instead of the "sell, sell, sell attitude of most employees and stores. Example ... if you could get good info on how to control algae for free, instead of selling "algae eaters" and chemicals to control a problem that can be cured for free. Advise on how to save money will bring me back when I WANT to spend money.


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## Ghost Knife (Mar 12, 2008)

xraytetralover said:


> I hate the fact that the signs on the fish tanks at my Petsmart don't have correct info. For the common pleco for example, it has the enormous size that it grows to them then says they can live in a 20 gallon... Yeah, right. Plus half the sizes for the tetra are way smaller than what people have actually experienced them growing to.


Actually those tank sizes are minimum tank sizes for the size you buy them while they are at the store so they are generally rather close. The typical Pleco at Petsmart is 3-4" and 20 gallons will house that size for at least 6 months.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

slevin711 said:


> Hey Guys!
> I think I have down most of the basic knowledge of starting a business by now and how to make it successful over time,
> Thanks in advance guys!


I have looked into going into this business, and I can definitively say that if you have any business knowledge, you'd know better than to go into retail, especially in pets, and especially in fish. You would literally have to have rocks in your head to consider this. You're looking at a six-figure upfront buildout in a big retail space to sell a fish for $4.50 that you got in a $4.25 once you figure for dead loss. The chains and the online people have cut the pricing so low on equipment and supplies that you can't balance out with that. Add the utility costs from warming, filtering, treating, lighting thousands of gallons of water. Not a good idea. It is about as intelligent as owning an airline.


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## TheOtherNewGuy (May 4, 2009)

around me petsmart is boss...every1 else sucks...actually its prob bc of the manager i call him fish guy b/c idk his real name but very few if ever dead fish in the aquarium system and he will actually reccomend useful products and will reccomend correct tank sizes and fish stocking....when i was still much newer i kept longing to put more fish in my 30 gal w my dempsey...(other than my pleco)....but nothing worked...the way i see it look back to the saying "if you want it done right do it yourself"...aka research...the store is gunna sell stuff just to make money and if you dont sell that way to youll never make $$


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Not to be negative, but I have to agree with COM. In the past year, 4 fish stores have closed near me, including one that was only a few months old. He is selling stuff on craigslist and asking $1000 for a tank he prob. paid $3k for and he'll be lucky to get $100 back. Even the 'aquarium maintenance' business is hurting bad. People get into the business because they love fish, but its no way to make money. 

You need to do more the fix the flaws in the chainstore's model. You need a new business model to make money. I don't know what that is. The current boom in saltwater because of new technology allowing the keeping of new fish and anemone is likely to wane as people get used it to. The way the African cichlid boom in the 80s did. Eventually, everyone who wants a tank will have one. The chainstore model of lowest costs results in lots of dead fish and empty tanks as those who got bad advice or sick fish just give up. They train their cat-food sellers, but not the fishkeepers. They simply don't pay for experienced staff, there isn't enough profit in it. 

You could start another thread and ask people what they like about their favorite store. 

My advice would be to own the store & land free and clear. Moving a store seems to kill it faster than anything else and small businesses are having a horrible time getting lines of credit.

There is hope. We are starting to see new stuff. New products from new vendors are appearing. LED lights are coming and they will be both awesome and cheap. Planted tanks are taking off. And new hybrids and genetically-engineered fish (i.e. electric blue ram) are showing up in the hobby. Planted tanks, or rather 'aquatic gardens' are sweeping this country the way they have in Europe and Asia. 

But does retail really add value when you can get a wider variety of fish from aquabid and pay 50% less for supplies online? The first thing a hobbyist does when he gets serious is to eschew the stores for local clubs, used equipment from Craigslist and online supplier of food and supplies. The first time fish keeper is skipping the store and getting a plastic cup with cartoon characters and some goldfish from wal-mart. So who goes to the LFS? 

Now sooner or later, wal-mart will decide fish have become less profitable than some other use of its square-footage and they will drop it like they did their fabric depts. Some stores have already taken out the tanks and live-stock. It wouldn't be bad to be ready with a plan when a new niche opens up.


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## Toshogu (Apr 24, 2009)

peeves..... Knowledge and Books usually both are hard to find. Lucky for me I've got two okay LFS near me. BEST LFS is Neptunes Reef in gardena but that's near 1:30min from me. but I make the trip fom time to time because the selection is awsome and john is a walking encyclopedia of fish care. i've also seen him refuse to sell near $6000 in equipment and fish twice, because he knew that the person was inexperienced and to impatient to cycle the tank properly and would just end up killing the fish. Just don't ask him about politics. Integrity, honesty, and knowledge, I like John alot for that and that's why I make the trip out there.

Honest to goodness you just have to find good LFS and just really look at how they do things. I would like to see more selection but what's the point of buying a specialty fish that's gonna sit in a tank for months/years till some random person decides to buy it. the object of business is to move product quickly at a profit. The longer a fish sits in a tank, the more expensive it becomes. Most LFS are happy to special order fish for you so that's not to much of a problem for me. People who complain about selection are to much impulse buying.

Either way, make sure to keep your tanks algea free, and don't let dead fish sit in the tanks either.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I used to own a fish store, and a truly awesome one at that, but COM is right; it's financial suicide. You will wind up in bankruptcy court unless you are willing to take steps which would preclude you from being worthy of owning any business, let alone a fish store.

The hippies almost shut down the entire pet industry a few months ago, but we were barely able to stop them. They'll be back again & again, though, and with today's bunch of politicians, they will eventually get their way. Opening a petshop would be one of the stupidest things imaginable.

There is one thing you could do which might work, assuming you actually know what you're doing. Get yourself a big building way out in the middle of nowhere where the rent is very cheap, and fill it with pools, vats, and tanks. Banning the interstate transport of all animals is the angle the hippies are using to shut down the pet trade, so it makes sense to build hatcheries in every state. Once they manage to block all pet traffic, in the name of the environment, you see, then every petshop in the country will be forced to buy all it's fish from whatever source it can find within it's own state. You may well have a goldmine in a state as populous as yours. ( at least until all the stores are finally forced to close due to lack of business because everybody got bored with the same old things all the time )

One more thing: price is all that matters. If yours aren't the best prices in your area, you will not make it. Period.
Service, selection, and quality are all very nice, but the shoppers don't care about these. I found this out the hard way. The morons across town who have no clue what they're doing will put you out of business in under a year if the customers can save 50 cents.


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## llamas (Jun 29, 2009)

That last paragraph that Old Salts wrote really stands out to me. I don't know how one of my LFS's is still in business. Probably it's the fact that they try to get you to buy all the additives while your there at high prices. It's very interesting to see their prices as I will go to Petsmart ACROSS THE STREET and find that their prices are up to 50% LESS.
Note that not all products are less at Petsmart, but there are definately no products priced higher.

How does my LFS keep on going?

Oh and the Petsmart across from them is your typical Petsmart, a bunch of unknowledgable employees and all of their clown loaches covered in Ich. (I think that's how you spell it )


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## slevin711 (Jul 14, 2009)

Thanks for the valuable input guys. 

I guess I'll start with the comments on the failing fish business first. I probably should have clarified, my intention is not to just open a fish store. It will be a pet store, but for now I'm looking at how the fish aspect would do in this store. I understand that many stores are failing, and mind you, I am talking about opening this store many years down the road. It will take time to build the capital and finalize the plans. I am in the mere planning stages and gathering intelligence. My theory is that if someone were to open a small chain of stores, after doing extensive research and listening to community forums such as this on top of learning how to streamline the business, they could turn it into a successful business. I'm not saying it will be successful right away at all, because it won't for a long time. The key is to open the store properly. The timing with the economy, the "first-time" approval of customers and innovative techniques would all be drivers of this. 

Now, without revealing every single detail of ideas that will be a differential for my store, I'll share a few that I am going to do or am on the fence about seeing that you guys are not afraid to share your opinion:

*1. Website* -- this is easily the biggest. The internet is dominating sales. Not trying to sound like an expert, but I am confidant I can impress people with my website design and structure. What many of the big stores ( and small for that matter) lack on their websites are thorough information (and also in the store) about fish, accurate pricing, and inventory list with the price. 

Thorough information, in the store and online. Pretty self-explanatory, although I will need employees who are just as knowledgeable. 

I can make a website, when paired with a good inventory/accounting system, that will keep an accurate record of what fish I have and how many are currently in stock. This will become more difficult if I were to ever decide to expand to multiple stores but you get the drift.

*In store* -- Proper information, informative employees, and Good displays and guides.

Proper information - again, self-explanatory.

Informative employees - have to find a good balance between knowledge and pay grade. Finding a dedicated hobbyist is key.

Good displays - Not talking about flashy advertising. More just personal display tanks set up to show examples. i am also a sucker for DIY decorations. I think I could find a way to incorporate DIY guides for basic decorations (pots, backgrounds, rock, caves) to allow people a cheaper option to decorate their tank, something the large stores definitely do not do. 

Please give constructive feedback. I know how hard this will be and how well the fish business is doing currently.


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

TOS, when society ends... I vote for you as the leader of the surviving few xD
I absolutely agree on the last paragraph- pricing. People have always been stingy, and more so with how much the economy has suffered lately. Like said, even an extra 50 cents added on can really discourage people from buying anything. I've seen people travel miles out of their way, to pick up items, animals, etc. only because it was "50 cents cheaper" or something even shockingly lower. Many don't figure in other things, because they always want to see they're saving at least some small amount.

A website is a great idea- I can't tell you how many times i've planned trips to larger pet stores/warehouses and the like- only to look them up on the internet and find nothing of use. Seeing a newly updated site (at least ONCE weekly) of general stuff kept, and the owners and staffs views on their personal care, is a large bonus. For some people like myself, and others on this board who are really into this hobby, knowing about something before you travel that few hours, or even states for a store, is crucial.

Another thing that greatly helps out- personalized customer care.. not only from staff, but the owner of the shack. I've been in three out of probably 70+ stores where I was thoroughly informed, and almost felt like the person really cared of not only myself, but of what they were selling. Fishfirst (paul) worked at a store called scales and tails a while back- great example of the type of person you'd want working at your store. Made time to actually talk about things, rather than giving us one liners like someone you'd see working in a rundown petco. Another- a store called hoffer's, large, well over a million dollar store with probably 100-200 people in there... and the owner personally showed us around, fed fish, checked and looked to find anything we wanted. He probably sat with us for two hours letting us know everything. I think he even gave us his number at one time, if we needed anything. Seeing someone like that, who's actually into what they're doing, makes a store really stand out. I've been in shops where the owner would be really into his saltwater set-ups, but when it came time for us to ask questions, he would basically say nothing, and refer us to someone else even though the store was empty.

Think I rambled again...


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## wrestlerboy (Apr 8, 2009)

i think the biggest problem is bad fish stores dont care about you and youre tank/s


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i have only dealt with lfs about 4 or 5 times in the past 30 years..but then again ; at times i have had more fish in my basement than many stores...i used to sell to a few stores ; but quit when they all started to try ripping me off... offering me 50 cents for the same fish they are selling for $10.00...i recently offered a local shop some nice albino and brown bushynose plecos for $2.50 each if he bought more than 50..he told me "no ; i can get them for 80 cents each with shipping included"..i just laughed and walked out..the stores tend to treat local breeders like they are some dumb kid that had an accidental spawning and doesn't know what to do with the babies..
i can remember some years ago i offered a shop silver dollar and larger size gold severums for $1.00 each in quantity.he thought i had a couple dozen or so..was surprised when i told him i could supply 1500 fish.he ordered 500.when i brought them in and he opened the boxes and looked at the fish and said that they were beautiful.. then told me he would give me 55 cents each...i took the boxes of fish and dumped them into the storm sewer in front of his shop...with him watching...i thought he was going to cry..i am absolutely unwilling to allow a shop owner to screw me like that..

honest resonable shop owners are almost impossible to find....


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## sublime guy (Mar 28, 2009)

i would like a lfs with a greater variety of some of the less common fish found out there instead of the same 30 fish over nover again


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

a few "operational" things that make great stores stand out from "good" ones -
a) quarentine - new fish should not be mixed with existing fish or put in multi-tank systems.
b) containment - making sure that nets, specimen cups, and hands (!) are properly sanitized between tanks - don't spread the inevitable disease from one tank to dozens.

c) knowledge - get good staff. Train them. make books and magazines available to them. Get product reps to come by so you know your product lines inside and out.

d) get good stock. In this case, I'm gonna contradict TOS (people, put this on your calendar, I think this is the only time I've disagreed with TOS on something fishy!) - at least in my area, good fish at a good price beat crappy fish at a cheap price. We can't compete with the chains - so we don't try to. If they want to sell crappy guppies for a dollar, we'll sell better guppies at $3 - $5 each. The customers who are willing to listen, and who are willing to pay more for quality, will still be in the hobby next year or in 5 years. The person who wants to save $1 on a guppy at the superstore probably will be part of the 80% of aquarium buyers who leave the hobby in less than one year.

e) Get to know your local fish club (and/or "reef club") - and more importantly support them. These are the hardcore fish-heads, the folks with multi-tank syndrome, the ones addicted to fish. They can be an important market, and more importantly, then can be a huge ally to your store. Aquarists know who the "good" stores are locally, and they refer others to them (friends don't let friends buy crappy fish).

f) find out what the area "niche" market is in fish - are people locally ga-ga for guppies ? setup multiple tanks of multiple strains. Got hardcore cichlid breeders in the area ? If they have good stock, try trading food and supplies for fry. If you've got an ethnic group in town that favors certain fish, market those fish (for us its arrowana, parrots, and flowerhorns, along with locally raised bettas).
Ditto plants - if you know have staff that know planted aquariums well enough to sell plants and supplies correctly, setup a big planted show tank. One of the most common compliments I hear at work is that we have better/more plants than anybody in town.
Having hard-to-find fish at decent prices can make your store a "destination" not just another LFS. Getting those fish from local breeders can often allow you to sell them at prices better than your competitors or online.
g) take a long hard look at product lines.... product that sits on the shelf unsold is wasted money (but - empty shelves look bad too). Decide for instance what brand(s) of power filters to carry. How many brands do you want to invest space and capital on ? 2 ? 3 ? I've seen stores with Hagen, Tetra, Marineland, Penn-Plax, and Aqueon filters. Why ? They all work, somewhat - but each has its benefits. But too many choices confuse customers. Decide which ones you like and stick with those (I like to carry ones with good vendor support - ones I can easily get/sell replacement parts for. I also like having at least one line that Walmart doesn't carry  )
Ditto foods - how many flake foods do you need ? How many lines of foods can you afford to carry ? Do you want to carry the same lines as the superstores, or go with a smaller brand like Omega One ? And what about private label food or filter carts (ie Ginger) ?
h) Back to the store tanks - decide how you want the system to work. 
"homemade" racks and standard tanks, or "off the shelf" commercial LFS racks (ie Marineland's MAR's system) ?
mutiple connected tanks with Central filtration ? 
or individual tanks ? (and if so - Power filters or sponge filters ? or both? )
Manual water changes ? automatic water changes (ie drip system) ? 
Each has its pro's and cons.

*z)* Most of all - find something to make your store stand out from the rest - it could be rare fishes (apistos, killies, cichlids, pure strain guppies, etc). It could be hard to find supplies - live blackworms, live daphnia, live marine phytoplankton - whatever need the local superstores can't meet. ( It could be service and info - BUT people don't pay for info)
It could be rare or hard to find brands of hardware (and parts) - being the only eheim shop in town can be tough when the filters are $100 cheaper online, but lots of people come in for filter pads and replacement parts (and buy impulse buy items like fish food while their in the store).
There's got to be some reason that people come to your store not some other store.

If you haven't already read it, I highly recommend Ben Birdsill's "Over the Counter" column, which ran for years in FAMA magazine. Much of it is archived at his website http://www.birdsill.com/otc/


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

Oh - and the number one thing I learned the last 20 years ?
Sell dog food. 
Seriously
I work at a LFS that started as a dog food / supply store, and we sell the high end dog foods ($50 - $75 per bag) and on any given Saturday, our live fish sales are nowhere near our dog food sales. even allowing for the difference in markup, the dog food pays the rent not the fishies....
Running a multi-dimensional pet supply store is more work, but its alot more fiscally secure - you've got a much more diversified customer base and more foot traffic.... and the people who buy a $70 bag of dog food will buy a discus from me for $100, while the people who buy a $10 bag of dog food are buying $1 comets at Walmart. :mrgreen:


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I remember several good stores in Chicago 20 years ago. Several were known for hard to find cichlids, one sold bulk bird seed (it did have bugs), one rented diatom filters for the weekend. All of them had an owner that was usually there and cared about fish. I don't know if any of them made money. I think they did back when the $6 sales price of the cichlids I sold them for $1.50 was real money. Now the same cichlids go for the same $6 and I can't give away fry.


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## Kurtfr0 (Nov 2, 2008)

"Another thing that greatly helps out- personalized customer care.. not only from staff, but the owner of the shack. I've been in three out of probably 70+ stores where I was thoroughly informed, and almost felt like the person really cared of not only myself, but of what they were selling. Fishfirst (paul) worked at a store called scales and tails a while back- great example of the type of person you'd want working at your store. Made time to actually talk about things, rather than giving us one liners like someone you'd see working in a rundown petco. Another- a store called hoffer's, large, well over a million dollar store with probably 100-200 people in there... and the owner personally showed us around, fed fish, checked and looked to find anything we wanted. He probably sat with us for two hours letting us know everything. I think he even gave us his number at one time, if we needed anything. Seeing someone like that, who's actually into what they're doing, makes a store really stand out. I've been in shops where the owner would be really into his saltwater set-ups, but when it came time for us to ask questions, he would basically say nothing, and refer us to someone else even though the store was empty."

Ding Ding Ding, Biggest thing I like about stores. 

"i would like a lfs with a greater variety of some of the less common fish found out there instead of the same 30 fish over nover again"

Yeah, Same crap over and over is very annoying. Also a shop that maybe rotates the fish it sells? Who knows.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

not many people are willing to pay the price for the not so common fish..
i breed L-66 King Tiger plecos..wholesale price for them is $30.00 for a 3" fish... that equates to $60-$90 or more for one...how many would i be able to sell at that price...
i have albino bushynose posted on here for $4.00 each and can't sell them..folks say they want the rarer fish but for the most part are unwilling to pay for the,..
a shop cannot sell fish for what they pay and still survive...100% markup is the minimum for a small shop.


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

lohachata said:


> not many people are willing to pay the price for the not so common fish..
> i breed L-66 King Tiger plecos..wholesale price for them is $30.00 for a 3" fish... that equates to $60-$90 or more for one...how many would i be able to sell at that price...
> i have albino bushynose posted on here for $4.00 each and can't sell them..folks say they want the rarer fish but for the most part are unwilling to pay for the,..
> a shop cannot sell fish for what they pay and still survive...100% markup is the minimum for a small shop.


And this is why a good market analysis and business plan is key - in the Boston area, the stores markup fishes at least 300% - sometimes 500%. 

And people will pay the price if the quality is there.
We keep at least a dozen "fancy" plecos in stock, with prices from $30 to $130 - they don't all sell every week but they move well enough to be worth the investment (and they, along with $200 bichirs and $250 tigrinis cats, are why people looking for quality unusual or rare fish come to our store) - that's our niche. We also get people just looking for bread-and-butter fish - and I'll sell them danios at $2 or $3 each, or $5 cory cats.

(I see the same basic prices in the non-chain stores I visit, and since I see alot of the wholesaler prices at work, I know roughly what they're paying and what they're marking up.)

But - Big BUT - we know our market and our customer base. and we have a strong business plan. (at least, it feels that way to me - I just work there weekends, I'm not the owner) :fun:


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## llamas (Jun 29, 2009)

lohachata said:


> i can remember some years ago i offered a shop silver dollar and larger size gold severums for $1.00 each in quantity.he thought i had a couple dozen or so..was surprised when i told him i could supply 1500 fish.he ordered 500.when i brought them in and he opened the boxes and looked at the fish and said that they were beautiful.. then told me he would give me 55 cents each...i took the boxes of fish and dumped them into the storm sewer in front of his shop...with him watching...i thought he was going to cry..i am absolutely unwilling to allow a shop owner to screw me like that..
> 
> honest resonable shop owners are almost impossible to find....


Awsome story! I wish I could have seen the look on the guy's face! When you offered them at $1, owner could easily have made a profit. A local fish store near me gives you 50% of their retail price for your fish. However, it is in store credit, so you are stuck buying their products. I haven't tried the other ones yet.

You just gave me a good idea though. If I do ever get into breeding and selling and I get a bad offer like that, I will do the same. Sounds entertaining (seeing the reaction) and although some may say it's mean, when you have too many fish, you have to get rid of them, even if it means killing them...


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

llamas...it was not about having too many fish and needing to get rid of them..it was just to show the guy that being greedy and dishonest doesn't pay..he was paying .74 cents plus shipping for dime to nickel size sevs and charging the customer $5.99..had he paid the $1.00 each he could have gotten $10.00 each for them..
at the time i had 4 breeding pairs of them..i sold the others and all future spawns to the local wholesaler for the same $1.00 each..not to mention all of my angel spawns and other fish i was breeding...

red....smart business owners do exactly what you have said..establish a solid plan....provide quality products and service...


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Turning our hobby into a business is something that most serious fishbreeders at least consider at some point. I have known many who have tried, a few that succeed in making enough to maybe pay for the hobby and many who have failed ( in many cases giving up the hobby completely). I don't think any would advise a youngster to gamble a career on a retail pet shop business. Not today. In the days before Walmart and the internet it could be done. If you are determined to make fishkeeping a business let me offer a suggestion... I did this once...successfully but it takes more work than I was willing to put into it. It never made enough money for me to consider quitting my day job. LOL..That is selling to a wholesaler. We have already established that retail is a longhshot and selling to pet shops is hit and miss. A wholesaler won't talk to you unless you can prove that you can deliver. He will be interested in a set number of a certain fish each week or each month. If he knows he can count on you and you can provide quality at a reasonable price. I would recommend two or three species at most to work with. Something that is in demand that not everyone can provide. An example would be blue ram cichlids. Most come from overseas and are notorously difficult to acclimate. Locally bred and raised rams are healther and always in demand. Angelfish are another favorite. They are not difficult to breed but raising quality fry to the quarter body size needed, in quanity, is not easy. Selling this way is the only way I know of to move large numbers of baby fish on a consistant basis. When I tried this it took almost a year. I took fish to the wholesaler every month. Some months he took all that I brought. Some months none. He finally decided that I could deliver and he started counting on the fish I could provide and quit buying that fish from his normal supplier. My fish of choice was gold severums. I had to devote about a dozen aquariums and several large vats to this enterprise and it ceases to be a hobby at that point.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Another one closed today. That takes it from 6 stores in a city (suburb really) of 35k that carried fish to 0. The wal-mart took out its tanks, 2 petlands gone and 3 owner-operated stores (1 mixed, 2 salt) closed.


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## Kurtfr0 (Nov 2, 2008)

With what john said, people are not willing to buy rarer types. I agree, but Theirs cheap fish that you don't see in pet stores, and I guesshaving more expensive fish would mean having set up in an area that has plenty of people who are actually in the hobby not just buying a fish for there kid.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

another thing.... when i first started in the hobby around 1973 ; i joined the Cleveland Aquarium Society... we had over 200 members.and we always had between 75-125 members at meetings.CAS is one of the oldest and possibly the oldest aquarium society in the US..for sure since 1923..but there was an article in a cleveland newspaper about the club in the 1880's..we are currently searching for that article...
today;we have maybe 40 members..of which maybe 15 or 20 are somewhat active...our oldest current member joined the club in the mid 1930's...
our club used to have shows every year..and we often had as many as 6000 visitors come through the exhibit.
most of the member supported the local fish stores..but not so much anymore.. they could find all kinds of fish in great condition..shopkeepers knew their stock..and folks didn't mind paying a little extra for good fish..
but the big chains really hurt the little guys..just like they did with all of the other mom and pop type businesses..
maybe folks should stop buying their stuff at the chains..chains will not keep in stock what will not sell..but this will never happen..
and i agree with what ron said..get set up for consistant reliability and ably to deliver quality and quantity on a regular basis....if i took my wholesaler 500 quarter size gold severums for $100 each ; he would kiss me...which makes me think...i have about a dozen of them ready to pair off and breed..maybe i better get busy...
ok...enough of my lunacy..now back to your regularly schelduled programs..


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

100% markup is the minimum for a small shop.- agreed, the shop I used to help in had a 300% markup. Small store, helped with stocking and ordering a few times and she would sell a 4$ fish for about 14$ or so. Alot of the cheaper fish, wholesale price- were usually listed around 10 cents each.

Every lfs here has closed except for one that sells all common fish, and has been open for years now. The only ones left are about a 3-4 hour drive from me.


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

paramount aquarium of new york city stayed in business all through the great depression back in the 20's and 30's...most income was from goldfish...they were the first to bring discus into the US in 1933......$50.00 each.....


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

OK my 2 cents:

1. No matter what kind of store you open, if you put stock on the shelves and it is not selling PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE buy a feather duster and then USE it. My LFS does not do well with fish, the tanks are dusty, the stock is dusty, the books are actually horrid. Unfortunately the same is true of the fish tanks. They are scratched and worn and often have so much algae that it is difficult to really see the fish the way you want to. They put in black lights, which are cool, but so dark you can't see the fish. The fish are not any hardier than the chains, but they sell for twice as much. I have lost more LFS fish than Petsmart fish. I still try to give them business in general, but it is increasingly difficult. I will order my puffers from there, but that is about it. 

2. Make sure any visible equipment is clean. They will often hang the 100 foot python on a hook by the sink, and its moldy inside (understandable given length). What a horrid thing for people to see! Bleach it every so often to keep it mold free and keep it out of sight! But do keep some clean equipment visible. It lets people know you keep things clean for your animals. 

3. If the item that a person is looking for is a replacement for a broken item then find out what is broken. The one really good employee at the LFS was sent home one day for teaching a client how to clean an impeller rather than sell a new filter. Teach them how to care for their equipment and encourage the purchase of a back up in case of emergency. That customer told Maggie that she would come back, but only when she was there. She would not deal with the store owner, and told her so. Maggie had a successful store for something like 20 or 30 years, and the owners of this store ignore her advice on a regular basis. Don't do that if you have that kind of experience in your store. (She sold that business when she moved from NY to Arizona and works at this one part time as a retirement thing, in case you were wondering why she wasn't still just running her own).

4. Don't sell tattooed or painted fish. Period. Put up information about why you do not do this. Explain the difference between genetically altered and painted/tattooed. Explain what to look out for. My LFS had snow tetras that were beautifully colored. These can be difficult to find with their natural colors not tattooed, but when you find it you KNOW you found it. They replaced their gorgeous natural colored one with tattooed ones. The colors are in blotches and look horrible. I do not know if this was them or their supplier but if it was the supplier they should have sent them back or refused delivery. I was going to buy the natural ones but was dead broke at the time. I should have sold my shoes. 

5. Other animal issues: Please do not ever sell full breed dogs or cats. Find your local rescues and work very closely with all of them. Educate the public about why you are doing this. If someone is insistent about a pure breed point them to that breeds rescue group. Most pure bred dogs have a dedicated rescue, just look on PetFinder. Find ways to work with veterinarians around the area who will work with you for spay and neuter. This is just pure responsibility and the one thing I give both PetSmart and Petco huge kudos for. Frankly I would find a way to showcase the dogs and cats at your place, use the rescues to care for them while housing some with you (the numbers would be too high to keep many there, but it would be to everyone's benefit to keep some of the more friendly ones out for display. Check out how the humane society have changed their stores. It's just awesome).

6. Gourmet foods are big, but look into what people actually want. A lot of the specialty "cookies" don't do as well as prepared foods. If you sell whole chicken and things like that make sure the price is comparable with grocery stores. Our LFS does very well in this area. Dog food: The way to go. But they loose customers for some of the things like whole chicken because lots of them can be found at grocery stores. The bigger things like nice big frozen ribs do very well. Sell high end dog food and again: Educate the public about those foods and provide solid information they can read, studies etc. Many people will see high end food as scams so you have to educate. Backing up the knowledge with proof boosts your reputation big time. They know you are not just trying to make money. This may sound funny but if you live in an area with hunters get bones from them. I lived in a neighborhood with a processor and let me tell you people from at least 3 neighborhoods in the area used to come for bones. And my dogs stole an elk leg one time. It was an interesting "present" to open my door to! I have no idea how my little Shiba Inu got that across a 1/4 mile grass field. 

7. Sell unusual dog and cat collars. The choices at PetSmart and PetCo are incredibly dull. I love some of the options at the LFS. 

8. If you sell rabbits and things like that, use rescues for those as well whenever possible. Especially rabbits. 

Those are the things I look for in a pet store. One of the better parts of using rescues for dogs and cats is that they are free to you, and you can make some money on their sale (probably not a ton, but some is better than none). They tend to be expensive (150-200) because they all come spayed and neutered. Make sure that people know that this is why they can run that much. 

If you do things like have the rescues in the store then you will bring in a lot of people. Social mindfulness is something that more and more people are moving towards. Don't forget that many fish are rescued as well. The LFS does get that part right. They have very large fish, some of the common plecos are amazing, that they have been given by people who can no longer house them. Huge fancy goldfish, oscars, and one cichlid that was as aggressive as anything (it would attack your hand through the glass) that was quite sizable as well. Angels, wow nice huge angels. Too bad the tanks are so ugly. 

That is probably more than you wanted, especially since I didn't stick to fish, but that is what is important to me. 

Hope to God that helped!


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## Pareeeee (Jan 22, 2005)

Well I was shocked when I went to one of my LFS's and saw what the bettas got shipped to them in. Little, TINY 'ziplock' type baggies that had barely any water/air in them. The bags in this picture I found on the internet are big compared to the ones I saw at the LFS.
http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Betta,6.jpg

ok, what I hate is dead fish left in the tanks, or diseased fish in a tank with fish that are for sale!!! THE DISEASED ONES SHOULD BE QUARANTINED AND *NOT* FOR SALE!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

We are spending a lot of time criticizing fish shops. Remember... the owner of that mom and pop pet shop probably started out with a hobby just like us and decided one day to turn a hobby into a business. Just like our discussion in this thread. Then reality set in. Running a small business in todays world is not easy. All the things we are suggesting should be done (nice health fish, clean tanks, knowledgeable employees, etc) all cost money. We are the source of that money. Fish shops don't make money off fish or the service they provide. They make money off food and supplies. The stuff that we all buy from internet stores that don't worry about selling fish. I suggest that the reason the small local fish shops are not what we would like for them to be, is our fault!!! A perfect pet shop... the kind we would all like to see...that provides good service and interesting healthy fish, would have to charge twice as much for fish food as the internet store. Would we buy that expensive food??? No. We would go to that store, buy the interesting fish and listen to the good advice and then go home and order the food from the internet shop. That's the way it is... as Walter Cronkite would have said. RIP Walter.


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## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

Ron, you've absolutely nailed it.

The old business model for fish shops was that they sold fish and other livestock at a very modest profit / near break-even. 500% markup on a $5 fish means you made $4. Now factor equipment, food, energy costs, holding costs, labor costs, rent, license fees, that $4 is down to pennies. Even if you're a financial whiz and you set up a factoring arrangement with a bank, very tough. Fish stores traditionally lived on wider margins for filters, cartridges, even tanks and stands. They are the type of inventory that a store can buy in bulk from a manufacturer during a promo period and hold onto for a long period of time. Filter cartridges don't expire.

When the chains popped up in the mid-90s, they brought huge buying power into the picture. They squeeze the manufacturers for low prices and they offer low prices to consumers. Why? Because heaven knows that they can't provide knowledge or service. E-tailers like Big Al's have accelerated this low-price race. If local shops want to compete at all, they have price at or near the chains and the online operators, yet they don't have the buying power to get good prices. I know of a very good LFS that was buying Emperor 400 filters from Big Al's online and then reselling them in the store because they were cheaper RETAIL from Al than wholesale from United.

My bottom-line prediction is that local fish shops as we know them will be gone from everywhere except the biggest cities within about a decade. Clubs and online will be the only way to get more interesting fish than the chains are willing to handle for most people.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I agree that it is immensely difficult to run a fish/pet store. I do not agree that the store owners cannot take very basic care of their store. When a person comes in and sees tanks that are calcified and algae riddled (just clean off the front glass, that is plenty) the likelihood of making any money is significantly decreased. When it looks as if a 10 year old book has not once been moved or dusted off, that's a problem. It is announcing lack of basic care. It is physically uncomfortable to pick up a filter box off of a shelf and be met with a cascade of dust. These are the things I have experienced at my LFS. 

By necessity I cannot pay the prices at my LFS, or even at the chains, for incredibly expensive items such as canister filters. Big Als saved my 100 gallon in that area, and it remains under filtered. I assure that if I could afford it I would use this store as a sole source, dust and all. I would do this because I very strongly believe in local economy staying local. I do pay for "overpriced" items at this store when I can. I just bought some water bowls last week


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

ok.....what the heck are water bowls???????
are they something that some idiot shopowner convinced you that you just had to have it???.....never heard of water bowls before..


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

lohachata said:


> ok.....what the heck are water bowls???????
> are they something that some idiot shopowner convinced you that you just had to have it???.....never heard of water bowls before..


I'm assuming they are these or something simliar depending on the pet in question :mrgreen:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/pet_supplies.cfm?c=3307+15+90


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2009)

LOL i would assume so. Ob has a doggie named Tara now. havent spoken to Ob in a long long time.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I buy stuff at my LFS too. Just a can of food or veggie clips or 1 thing of frozen food. I've seen so many close around me, I want one to remain. I must confess, the big ticket items, I get online or used.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

I'm sorry, dog water bowls (well water and food, and not limited to only dogs use). Tara (the dog) and Bradley (the cat) use these items daily 

They are essentially these bowls (12 and 40 oz) http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+15+90+18575&pcatid=18575

However mine are more decorated with a maroon exterior painting mixed with dog bone designs. Dogs and cats can tell if you have decorative items Vs plain items and get really mad when you don't get them something pretty. 

BTW, never EVER piss off a cat. Just bow and gracefully retreat.


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

LOL looks your cat still is on the warpath with u OB!


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

see....i don't equate water to dogs and cats...just fish..so it never entered my little mind..

animals do not care about decorations..they care about food and water..
let the cat get mad...i have a 12 gauge....it can join the other 100 or so that i have taken care of...


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Ob, Zakk, Loha... Ya'll all crack me up...


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