# Guppy: arched spine, hollow stomach



## rba

Title sums it up. The affected fish are all breeding age females.first they look skinny, then the spine bends downward. They will exist like this for some time then die. The fry *seem* fine, no abnormal mortality. I don't notice this happenin in the males which is what has me especially confused.

Ideas? Please...  

RBA


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## Fishboy93

Hmmm might be a sign of inbreeding?


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## rba

No, not inbreeding.


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## Christine

"guppy wasting disease" (aka TB) ??


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## rba

Yes, I have thought of that Christine. The part I am having trouble with is why it's the female fish, usually mature but not *ancient*.

The fish were all in one tank. A couple of months ago I moved all the females to one tank where they produced fry, all the males to another tank and all the fry I could catch to a third tank. Males seem fine. Fry grew up already and have there own fry now.

The few fry (6) I couldn't catch were left in the original tank which would theoretically have the most possible diseases, the fish had been in there with the same porous substrate for 1.5 years. They did great.

Maybe I am misunderstanding TB but I though it was very contagious and didn't take many months to spread and present itself in other fish.

If it is TB or some mystery illness which I can't realistically treat I would rather put the fish down than prolong the mess. I can't use half my tanks as Q/T tanks.

These are not prize show gups. The equivalent of meadow of wildflowers compared to a formal garden of Angelfish or other which have me rinsing and disinfecting everything past a normal level of caution.

EDIT: I should add I have tried a medicated food, oxytetracycline in case it was some kind of internal bacterial issue.


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## Christine

I have had the same experience with females. I have really gotten into the habit of looking for sunken stomachs on the girls. I tried for a while isolating them and treating them, but nothing has worked for me. In the long run, I lose them. It may take 1-2 months but I pretty well know if I see that stomach, its over. Sorry, I wish I could give you more insight. Maybe someone else knows.


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## angelfishamy

same thing happens to my guppy girls once they get a little older and after their last drops


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## rba

What about an internal parasite? IME, gup fry just swim around, not much direction in their lives. Males are always courting females taking a break to eat when fed. But it's always the adult females which I see going around the tank(s) endlessly pecking at everyting to see if it is edible.

I saw a mention of camallanus, and it got me thinking about parasites. I could no longer devote a big tank to 6 little guppy fry, I had baited out all the red ram snails and needed the tank for something else. I only kept a small amount of the substrate, removing and rinsing the bulk. I drained the tank by vacuuming the remaining gravel and when I got to the last bit of water I tipped the tank and got that out too. There were a BUNCH of very slim pink worms.

I had never thought much about the few I had seen before, the substrate has MTS and I vacuum thoroughly so there isn't a lot of uneaten food for worms to proliferate.And because the vacs I was really pulling almost everything out.

I don't think the fish have camallanus, I have never seen any external evidense of the worms. But they can't be the ONLY internal parasite in the world.

So has begun an experiment. 4 female gups. One severly affected, 2 showing signs and one younger female which seems fine. I'm trying a food with albendazole (sp?). 3 of the fish are on their way out anyways. The healthy fish will, at worst, be treated for worms/parasites it doesn't have.

Since both of you have seen the same thing I feel a bit less concerned about disease. Hopefully feeding the food w/meds in it will simply prove it's not some internal parasite. Thanks.


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## Christine

Keep us posted. I tried the jungle anti-parasite food but the fish really weren't interested in eating it and I didn't get good results with it.


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## Lupin

rba said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding TB but I though it was very contagious and didn't take many months to spread and present itself in other fish.


TB is transmitted via cannibalism or eating dead corpse infected by TB.


rba said:


> What about an internal parasite?


Probably not. Generally the poo is white and stringy if it were internal parasites.

You are the 2nd one I have encountered having problems with guppies due to camallanus. They are prone to camallanus. This applies to every other livebearers. You can try using Sera Cyprinopur to eliminate it.


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## Christine

Blue, I tried to google Sera Cyprinopur and couldn't find much information about it. What is the main ingredient?


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## rba

Blue said:


> TB is transmitted via cannibalism or eating dead corpse infected by TB.


I believe there are other ways for the fish to contract the bacterial illness, even contact with feces can spread the disease. Not only directly eating infected tissue. I did more reading and I was right on the contagious part but wrong on how long it takes to become symptomatic.



Blue said:


> You are the 2nd one I have encountered having problems with guppies due to camallanus.


Yes, liverbearers in general are especially vulnerable. Although some symptoms are there I see no evidense the fish have camallanus. As I said, I have never seen any external evidense of the worms. And if I did the deworming food would take care of the problem. Sera products are next to impossible to find in the USA. I mentioned worms because of seeing some when draining a tank. Just one of half a dozen assorted worms I know are in one tank or another.

Whatever the problem may be it is progressing very fast. Having the fish in a bare 10G just below eye level I get a better look at the fish than usual.

Now there is an unevenness to the skin/scales. NOT like ich. NOT sticking out like dropsy. NO redness. I found pictures similar to what I would expect an advanced case of this to look like but the picture was labeled unidentified pathogen. it's almost like teeny tiny cysts. It may have been there before, unnoticed because of lack of color.

I have read so many tropical fish disease pages, almost every disease mentions one symptom they have (okay an exageration). No flashing at all. No gasping at the surface. Swimming is poor but not typical shimmy. Fish look pale, anemic. But they are still alert

The younger fish isn't looking so good now. If it is contagious being in a small amount of water with only other sick fish would probably hasten infection.

At the same time the males that were once with these fish are fine and the now grown fry are fine in less than ideal conditions.

One of the fish I really wanted to try to start to fix a certain pattern with a similar male but I guess that won't happen. I am not going to prolong what seems inevitable. I don't see a whole lot of quality of life left unfortunately.

Too bad, that tank has a lot of biomedia for a 10G and could handle a heavy bioload if I kept up with waterchanges.


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## Gump

my oldest females did this before they died. it only took a few days before they died after i noticed them being very skinny and it was usally after they gave birth and they just never put the weight back on.


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## Lupin

Christine said:


> Blue, I tried to google Sera Cyprinopur and couldn't find much information about it. What is the main ingredient?


Dihydroxybenzol and ethanol.


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## doggydad38

Genetic problems due to inbreeding can present themselves in any number of ways. The arched spine is definitely the most common. It is possible for this to appear in one sex or the other. I had a line of Blue Guppies that presented this problem only in the females. The males never looked bad at all. When I did see this happening, I knew I was overdue for an outcross. Even if you have feeder or common Guppies, you need to introduce new "blood" every 3 or 4 generations or you start to see the effects of inbreeding at an exaggerated rate with each additional set of breeders. A sunken belly on a female Guppy can be from "wasting disease" or some other genetic anomally. Usually you see this in older females that are past their breeding prime. This is just nature's way of saying that they have served their purpose. When it presents in younger females, it's most likely a genetic problem that needs outcrossing before it progresses to the point where you have no females reaching sexual maturity. When I see this in my fish, I immediately remove the female from my breeding program and then check my breeding records to determine when the last outcross was done. A recent outcross indicates that the problem probably isn't genetic and the female was just weak and shouldn't have been bred in the first place. By culling this way, I eliminate the spread of disease. If an outcross is due, it is made immediately between compatible color lines and the problem is rectified quickly. Hope this helps.
Tony


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