# Please help. Fast Moving Disease.



## funlad3

Long story short, I've already lost my favorite fish, my Snowflake Eel Anguis. RIP friend. I'll miss you. :-( (As I tear up...)

Basically, last Sunday, he stopped eating. He became less active and more reclusive. Then his breathing sped up and his gills were slightly inflamed for about a day. That subsided and he looked extremely bloated from the head back. Thursday night, I saw a few red areas on his body, equally spread out. Friday, he seemed a little more active. On Saturday when I woke up, my CUC was eating his skin. I'm still disturbed.

Now, my Fox Faced Rabbit Fish, Vulpes, has stopped eating shrimp and wouldn't finish off the single stem of Macro algae that he normally devours. Since about 4:00, he's been either hiding behind or locking himself into rocks. He's also been going in and out of camouflage mode. Oh, and his breathing is also a bit faster than normal. 

Needless to say, I'm getting money from the bank tomorrow and will be setting up my 30 gallon QT on Tuesday when my LFS opens. (I'm out of salt and I don't have RO water. Crap.) I'm planning on doing some form of copper treatment. My questions are these.


1. What disease do I have in my tank? It would seem that only one fish at a time shows symptoms.

2. What do I treat it with?

3. Will the medication harm my FFRF, Clown Fairy Wrasse (Cirrhilabrus solarensis), or Copperband Butterfly fish?


I obviously want the disease GONE before anything else happens. QT will be for eight weeks, allowing me to be sure of the fishes health and for the whatever it is to die out of the tank.

Any and all help is appreciated. Thank you.

- Funlad3





Oh yeah, tank specs!

75 gallon mixed reef...

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites <.5ppm
Nitrates <2.5ppm
Calcium: 480ppm (Bad batch of Salt...)
Alkalinity: "Perfect" (Thanks LFS. Really helpful...)
SG: 1.023 (Hydrometer)
Temperature: 80º +/- 1º

How established:
Four months at my house, ten years at previous location. Same rock, same sand.

Filtration: ASM Mini G, filter sock, refugium w/ macro

Inverts:
24 DBLH, 1 reef hermit (?), thriving Hammer Coral, thriving Mushroom Corals,
small frag of Monti Cap that hates my lighting.

Anything else?


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## TheOldSalt

Well, I hate to have to say I told you so, but I told you so. Some guys just have to learn the hard way I suppose, but don't feel TOO bad; the same is true for almost everyone.

Now, there is a new drug available that really works wonders without any apparent risk, and even the most sensitive of fish seem to have no problems with it despite it's awesome effectiveness against all protozoan parasites. ( you almost certainly have amyloodinium )
The downside is that it's prescription only and not very cheap. It's called Chloroquine Phosphate, and the dose is 20mg/l. One dose lasts for two weeks and totally wipes out the ickies in that period.
It's actually a very old medicine used against malaria, but while not very good for that, it's awesome against icks of all types. It's also absolutely devastating against all algae, and the best part is that it's harmless to filter bacteria!
On the other hand, it also wipes out the zooxanthellae algae in coral, so it kills coral, and as such can't be used in the main coral tank.

Anyway, barring that, then good old coppersafe or any other good saltwater whitespot med should work okay. Also get a big strong UV sterilizer to put on the main tank to wipe out the ickies in it while the fish are all in the QT.


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## funlad3

Thanks TOS. As you can probably guess, I most likely won't be able to get that super medication in the estimated five days I have to at least halt the advances of the current disease. I've heard of amyloondinium... It's not a _horribly_ hard to treat disease... Is it?

The annoying thing about all of this is I know exactly where it came from. When I added my cleaner shrimp, about 15mL of water escaped from its bag. The worst part is that the LFS I got it from thinks "It Just Can't!" be from them. Typical... I think the largest part of that was them thinking it's my water quality...

Soooo.... Ich meds? That shouldn't be too hard! Do you mean this medication?

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4721


It should be fine with my CBBF with the correct dose, right?

Oh, and lucky me; the tank came with a brand new Coralife TurboTwist! I'm still trying to get it hooked up. Again, thanks!


Anyone else have a second opinion?


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## TheOldSalt

Yep, that's the stuff. It works pretty good, and most fish have no trouble with it, including copperbands.

Hard to treat? Nah. You just have to act quickly since it spreads like crazy.


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## funlad3

You don't need to tell me twice! If I can, I'll try to have everything set up tonight, but tomorrow for sure!

:admin: (This was chosen by some classmate... Fitting I suppose...)


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## funlad3

Wait, marine velvet? There are no lesions on anyone, nor are there any specs....

What I meant by red, is his skin looked reddish, not that there was red on him.

Is it still marine velvet?


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## funlad3

AHH!!!! I came home about five minutes ago to see my FFRF slowly swimming sideways with extra slime coat coming off of him. Brooklynella anyone? 

Crap, crap, crap! My choice dry goods LFS closes in two hours and twenty minutes, and of course, tonight is the only night this week that everyone in my family has some random activity. 

I'll try my best to get everything set up tonight, but I doubt it will happen. This also means that unless I get everything set up before 9:00, I'll have no FFRF. I'll have to have a very serious talk with my close LFS owner... There's something very serious going on in his tank setup...


ONE HOUR LATER!!!

I have filtered water being spewed out by my refrigerator, I got a mini filter for my QT, I got 8 ounces of Coppersafe, a huge bottle of water conditioner, five ounces of Carbon, and some red seaweed. (For when Vulpes feels better. Knock on wood.) Oh, and I got a 5 gallon bucket of Coralife Instant Ocean sea salt. (Without reef crystals!) Hopefully, I can get everything set up and everyone in treatment by 8:00! (Stupid 20 GPH refrigerator...)


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## funlad3

QT halfway full... Vulpes leaning on a rock breathing quickly... Go equipment, go!!!


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## funlad3

I finally got the QT clean, filled, and to the right temperature at 11:00. He went in at 11:00 as well. As soon as he was free of the net, he began to slowly swim around the tank, upright. At 11:15, I came back into my room, and he was lying on his side breathing rapidly again. On the bright side, I couldn't see anything on his body. (beigesque spots that I had seen beginning to cling onto him while in the display)

Right now, he is the only one in the QT. I'll most likely do a 1 gallon water change tomorrow and then add the other two fish. My LFS will be getting a potentially angry phone call tomorrow evening. We'll see what they say...

Do I think Vulpes will make it? No. Does he have a good chance? Yes. (45-60%) Do I want him too? Only as much as I wish a certain teen singer had to have their vocal cords removed. (Miley Bieber...) (Wow. See what I think of when I'm tired?)

Again, thanks TOS. I don't know specifically what parasite I have, but agree 100% that it is some type of fast moving parasite from Osama's passi.

Night everyone! (Good luck Vulpes. Love you!:cake


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## funlad3

Fish disease:2. Me:0. 

I will save my last two fish. As of now, I see no symptoms, but that obviously means nothing.

RIP Vulpes. You did well. :-(


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## TheOldSalt

First, lose the carbon. The carbon neutralizes the coppersafe, so that's no good.

Next, add some airstones or something, to help fight suffocation.

Next, it sounds like a freshwater dip is in order. Putting the fish in fresh water ( well-aerated and of the same ph and temperature as the tank ) for 2-5 minutes will help quite a bit. The ickies can't protect themselves from the effects of osmosis, and they literally swell up and burst when soaked in fresh water. This will rapidly clear the gills of infestation and help keep the fish alive until the medicine has time to soak in and start to work.
This is a normal early step in proper quarantine, and it works fine, and is usually perfectly safe for most fish. In fact, after a big rain, fresh water pools up all along the reef edges, and fish gather in these areas to take baths in it. It's nothing weird or scary, despite what some might tell you. I've dipped literally hundreds of fish, maybe over a thousand, even, and only lost three from it, and two of those were because I got distracted and left them in it for a half-hour or more. ooops.


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## funlad3

Just a few bullets.

I BOUGHT the carbon, but didn't add it yet for that reason.

I have a mini filter and an air pump in there, so the oxygen should be all right. I may add another line.

FW dip I can do. I have clean buckets galore, so I'll dip everyone before I add them to the QT. 


I still need to take Vulpes out when I get home tonight. Poor fish... As of this morning, I saw no signs of the mystery disease, so they should be fine until I get home. 

Thanks TOS. Again. Now I need to double check my overall knowledge about FW dips. 

Leave it to my luck to get one of the more rare, more deadly, salt water diseases as my first to treat....


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## OliveOyl23

If you were not going to quarantine a SW fish before adding to your tank, should you give them a FW dip?


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## Mr. fish

funlad3 said:


> I still need to take Vulpes out when I get home tonight. Poor fish...


You still have Vulpes in there?


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## funlad3

Yeah, and now the water is clouded. Waste of salt mix... Now I might not be able to add the other two into tomorrow. I'm digging myself into a deep atoll, aren't I...


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## funlad3

Now I just called the LFS. Again, he says he didn't give it to me or his fish would all have it. It makes sense, but then where did it come from?

I now need to do another water change on the QT, because like I said, it's cloudy. A water change on the display tank may also be in order.

The other two fish both seem completley fine, which doesn't sound like any disease I've ever heard of. I'm confused as to what I should do right now; put them in an uncycled QT now, or risk it and wait it out. I also still want to give them a FW bath, but I STILL don't have any SW test kits other than calcium. Great....

What should I do??? This is so stressful, to have a disappearing disease that can strike overnight....


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## TheOldSalt

Rare? HA! This stuff is dirt common, and the faster you learn that, the better.

Your LFS says his fish are all fine, but that's extremely unlikely. On the other hand, he might be taking steps to help ensure their survival, such as running with low salinity, using big UV's, running ozone through the skimmers, or feeding all his fish garlic. Many stores have also switched to using Chloroquine Phosphate in their systems instead of copper, and it works wonders. The only question is simply this: from how many places have you bought fish?

In my store I ran all the fish through 6 weeks of quarantine before offering them for sale, and they were the cleanest fish that money could buy. That still didn't make them absolutely perfect, though, and any store owner who thinks his fish are utterly spotless is displaying extreme arrogance and/or ignorance.

You don't have any SW test kits??? How in the heck have you even made it this far?

Fire up the UV, and get some garlic fishfood made for this purpose. Eating food flavored with garlic makes the fish taste bad to the ickies, and they drop off of the fish in search of more palatable hosts. This alone can solve your problem completely in about 3 months with no need to tear apart and treat the main tank, but it takes awhile to kick in so it's not going to save dying fish.

Don't worry about the cloudy water in the QT. New tanks cloud up; it's what they do and have always done. No biggie. Just aerate heavily.

If you can set up a small tank, like 10 gallons or so, just for your corals to keep them safely out of the way, then do so. Then you can treat your main tank with impunity with Chloroqine Phosphate and quickly have done with all your problems with no need for a QT in the first place. It's safe for bacteria and most inverts, but completely wipes out protozoans and *all* algae. Unlike copper, it does not promote the growth of harmful bad-guy bacteria, either, or get absorbed into the silicone only to slowly leach back out of it again and cause trouble.


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## funlad3

Rare? Are we talking brooklynella, marine velvet, or just diseases in general?

I've bought fish from two places. The eel, the FFRF, and the wrasse were from one store, and the CBBF from another. That other happens to be the one who thinks he doesn't have what I have.

If I said he thinks there is nothing wrong with my tank, I misspoke. He thinks that IF there is something biological in my tank (which he finds unlikely, not impossible) it wouldn't have come from him.

As for the chloroquine phosphate, I wouldn't even know where to get it, nor would I be willing to kill all of my coralline when I could just as easily run a QT. though I have a feeling I'm going to regret saying that...

I will feed them mysis with garlic tonight. I've tried to feed them food with garlic in the past, but it seems to just float off of the food and into the water. 

I'll be adding some carbon into the filter sock later just in case there is some impurity in my water. A little carbon in the display system never hurt anyone, right?

I really hope that all of this calms down. The stress is making me dangerously tired in class... Why can't my fish get a disease like one of the normal marine ichs? At least then I know what it is that they have! Right now, I can only tell that it's probably a parasite.

Test kits? What are those??? I know... I really need some. At first after I moved the tank, there wasn't much I could do to make sure it was cycled. The water I had had had fun been in the tank before it was moved, so I assumed that the salinity and alkalinity was in check. All of my assumptions were proven true, so I guessed everything was fine. I use the same salt, so all of my main levels are maintained by that. pH and alkalinity are maintained by the rock and the sand. And I have slightly hard, basic water to begin with.

To answer your question in short, I get by with no test kits with a pinch of luck, a tad of intuition, and a healthy serving of hope seasoned in ignorance. Hopefully I get the dessert soon, because I think that this entree has been overcooked...

More critique? I feed off of it! (I'll eventually break free from this deliciously evil speaking pattern...)

Thanks again TOS.


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## Mr. fish

funlad3 said:


> Yeah, and now the water is clouded. Waste of salt mix... Now I might not be able to add the other two into tomorrow. I'm digging myself into a deep atoll, aren't I...


Thats why I asked... You knew that you needed that QT tanks volume to be on point, i'm surprised you left a dead fish in all day with the amount of ammonia they let off when they die. Were you in a hurry?


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## TheOldSalt

You _didn't_ run across some rare kind of ick. You hit a super common one. If all you've seen so far is cryptocaryon, the slowest and least harmful of the bunch, then I can see why you think that this is something special, but I can assure you that it is most certainly not; almost every fish you've ever seen for sale probably has it. The spots are invisible as often as not, depending on the skin of the affected fish, so it might not seem as though it's so prevalent simply because you don't actually see it as often as you might see the others, but it's extremely common.
By the way, this is why it is no good to visually inspect a fish and decide that it's just fine just because you can't see anything wrong. The stuff you can't see is usually many times worse than what you can.


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## funlad3

"You didn't run across some rare kind of ick. You hit a super common one. If all you've seen so far is cryptocaryon, the slowest and least harmful of the bunch, then I can see why you think that this is something special, but I can assure you that it is most certainly not; almost every fish you've ever seen for sale probably has it. The spots are invisible as often as not, depending on the skin of the affected fish, so it might not seem as though it's so prevalent simply because you don't actually see it as often as you might see the others, but it's extremely common."

If you say so! I thought it was brook, which I read was rare to get without anemone fish. On another forum that shall not be named, I was told to follow this procedure. 

"I would treat the displaying fish in QT by alternating FW and Formalin dips. One day the FW dip, the next day the Formalin Dip. This continues until the fish has had four of each."

Good plan? I'm figuring that it will kill almost any type of disease they have, especially with a normal dosing of copper in the QT itself. What do you think?


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## funlad3

I've just ordered the 37% formalin and methylene blue from Foster and Smith's. I had to choose the seven day shipping, because I was told by certain parents that the overnight shipping cost to much. Hopefully, it gets here before those seven days. I think it should. Maybe next Tuesday or Wednesday?


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## TheOldSalt

Treat ALL the fish, not just the *ahem* "displaying" ones. Otherwise it's a good plan.


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## funlad3

I know to treat the two remaining ones. If my area gets nuked and I don't show the signs of radiation poisoning, it's still a near impossibility that I don't have it!

I also ordered a pH and alkalinity test so that I can keep my QT levels the same as the display. It will also help out with my FW dip. 

I don't want to stress out the fish before I have the medication, so THAT is why they're staying in the display. The second I see even the most subtle shift of behavior, into the QT they go. (Also, the CBBF can hunt copepods in my display.) When I get my order, they're both going in.

I'm cleaning and then refilling the QT tomorrow. I'll take about twenty gallons of DT water and add five new gallons. 

Awesome though. Now I have a concrete QT method! I'll do the aforementioned procedure and keep the display tank fallow for 8 weeks. For any new fish additions, I'll do two of each dip and QT for six weeks. New inverts can have a FW dip. Hopefully this will keep new sicknesses OUT of my tank!

Thanks yet again TOS!


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## Mr. fish

Thats a pretty cool method... FW dippin, who woulda thought...

Gotta keep that in mind once I get up and runnin'...


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## kay-bee

funlad3 said:


> ...New inverts can have a FW dip...


Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think SW inverts can tolerate FW dips. With that said "inverts" is a very general term (starfish, sea urchins, snails, crabs, shrimp, mollusks, etc).


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## TheOldSalt

You're not wrong. Good catch. Corals and anemones can usually withstand a very brief dip and shake of 45 seconds or less, and some crabs accustomed to estuarine areas have no trouble, but otherwise, marine inverts and freshwater don't mix at all.


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## funlad3

Your right; I didn't mean FW dips. Was it an iodine dip? I can't remember...

Nice catch though, I don't want to be misleading!


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## funlad3

Update! No, nothing died. (Knock on wood) I have the CBBF in QT. The wrasse earned a new nick name today... Smart &%^ Wrasse. It's not that he's too fast; he was in the net for about .2 seconds. He just hides in the rock when he sees the net. I had to keep giving him flake food to get him to come to the surface where I could almost snag him. He played me. Big time.

Anyways, assuming it is possible to catch the wrasse without making my own fish trap, what should I use as my QT method. The alternate dipping method sounds good, but I realized earlier that I had Prazi Pro. I don't _think_ it would be extremely effective, but I want to use every tool available to me.

As for a symptom update, the CBBF has stopped eating mysis and has become semi-lethargic, taking a few laps around the QT every five or so minutes. The only symptom that my wrasse is having is a case of bad attitude. It holds still in front of the the cleaner shrimp only to swim away at the last second.

So again, should I do the aforementioned alternate dip method with copper in the QT, or should I do something involving the Prazi-Pro as well?

Thanks everyone! I'll cure my fish some day!...


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## funlad3

Here's the message I just sent home to my dad... 

"Could you take out the Copper Band and give him a quiet funeral? I woke up this morning and he wasn't doing too well in the QT. I put him in the display and he was fine, so I went downstairs and did my morning routine. When I came up again to grab my sunglasses, he was under a rock with the hermit crabs moving in... I know the outcome of that, so please remove him. If I had to guess, I'd say that there is some contaminate in the QT, but I don't know for sure. What I do know is when I do catch that wrasse, there will be a nice clean bucket waiting for him."

Stupid bus.. coming to take me to the poorly scheduled school...


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## TheOldSalt

Do not bother with the PraziPro. For starters, you can't use it with other stuff at the same time, and next, your problem is not flukes or worms, but ciliated protozoans, which prazi doesn't much affect.


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## funlad3

Thank you! Now to just catch that wrasse... Fun...


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## dilligaf104

man i am not really that knowledgable yet but this post has kept me at the edge of my seat my hopes go out for you catch that wrasse man good luck


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## iheartfish:)

dilli, welcome to the forum  One of the first lessons you must learn is to check the date on posts 

I have to agree, though, that I was kept on the edge of my seat, too, funlad. You could publish this as "The Completely True and Sad Fishkeeper's Diary"  How did your problem end?


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## funlad3

Still waiting on the wrasse to get bored and be caught. We'll see! It's strange though; only the FFRF showed any signs of any sickness! I know that means nothing, but I still find it strange!


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## funlad3

And now, if history repeats itself, the wrasse will die either tomorrow or Thursday. Why you ask? It doesn't have any symptoms, you say. Well, the answer is really quite simple.

Every time my dad has gone out of town since this epidemic began, I would have one fish die. The Marine Betta. The eel. Actually, he's been here for both the FFRF and CBBF, but still, whenever he's gone out of town, a fish dies. 

You may be saying, "Then put it in the QT tank! Medicate it!". *Sigh* That's just it. I'm afraid to. Every time I've taken a fish out of the DT and put it in the QT, it died less than 24 hours later. I don't THINK the QT is contaminated, as the CBBF spent three days in it perfectly healthy. But then why the 24 hour death sentence? Do I just a have a hidden talent for picking out fish that are about to die?

I need someone to yell at me to medicate. I know I should, but I'm very superstitious and just can't bring myself to do it... Please, help me help myself help my fish... Why do SW diseases need to be so emotionally traumatizing?


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## TheOldSalt

Ah-HA! 
Obviously, your dad is fed up with your new hobby, and has been sabotaging things just before leaving so as to evade suspicion. 

Wrasses are tough as nails. ( except for those puny juveniles ) Put in in the QT and don't worry about it. 
If you leave it in the main tank, that tank will forevermore be contaminated and not able to house any new fish.
.
.
.
.
. That was a joke about your dad, in case you didn't get it.


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## funlad3

Too funny TOS! Should I put it in a clean 5 gallon bucket or a 29 gallon tank of questionable sanitation?


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## TheOldSalt

If you are going to treat it, then it should hardly matter. I would use a tank over a bucket.


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## funlad3

I'm just worried about some chemical in the QT. I have a small amount of carbon in it. I think I'll increase the amount and then add the wrasse tomorrow afternoon. That will help my mentality about the whole thing.


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## iheartfish:)

Good luck funlad!


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## funlad3

As of last night, I added five teaspoons of activated carbon to a filter sock. The tank has about 20 gallons, so the water should be clean soon with all of the flow I have going on inside the sock. I think I'll actually add the wrasse tomorrow morning so that I can pay close attention to it upon its addition into the QT. You know what they say... Procrastination makes perfect!


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## platies pwn

nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!The fishies go bye-bye!that really sucks.


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## funlad3

I still can't catch that wrasse!


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