# Advice needed. Septicemia? Too small tank?



## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

What fish are recommended for a 10 gal tank? Preferrably the easiest maintenance as I'm new at this. 

I have goldfish now and I know the tank is too small (3 fish about an inch long each in a 10 gallon tank). I can't get a larger one and short of the pet store taking them back (which I'm looking into) I'm not sure how long they'll live. I've been advised on other forums of how badly I'm treating them. 

They had redness at the base of their fins for almost a week now. It seems to be fading though. The one now has red streaks in his tail. Their tails are feathered now, no signs of disease like remnants of the dying bits like in the fin rot pictures I've seen. Simply eroding, and newly feathery tails. This all seems to be symptoms of a small tank. I'm going to get medicated flakes for the redness as it seems to be septicemia and talk to the pet store today. (Any advice on actions if the redness seems to be clearing up? Should I leave it alone for now?)

I've no way to fix the problem of a too small tank if the pet store won't help me by taking back the fish that are too big for it. So, I'm trying to accept that I'm causing their slow death. (I'm literally going through the grieving process here and seem to have come to acceptance this morning.) 

People have mentioned there are fish that can survive happily in a 10 gal tank. I don't know which fish those are though. I'd just like to take the time to think about that and how to do it properly if these guys don't make it. They look better, and I hope I can give them a happy (albeit little) home as long as I can. I just want to be practical if I can.


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

Do you know of any place that has a very large tank, such as a doctor or dentist office or maybe a man-made koi pond? I have seen these at restraunts, shopping malls and sometimes hospitals. If so maybe they will take them. You would obviously want to make sure the fish are healthy before you give them away...wouldn't want to infect someone elses fish.
What are your water parameters and what is your maintainance routine? It could be something as simple as high ammonia or nitrites that can be fixed with frequent water changes.
Not many options for a tank that size but somethings to look into might be a small school of the smaller sized tetras..ie neons, cardinals, glowlights; a trio of small platies (1m/2f ratio); a single male betta; small shell dwelling cichlids; a dwarf puffer. There are others but this is all that comes to mind, other people will have more suggestions for you. Be very carefull of what the fish stores tell you as they will frequently give you bad advice. Just remember that these are all tropical fish and will need a heater. Research anything you think you would like before you buy as they may have specific requirements that need to be met.
Good luck finding homes for the goldies and happy fish hunting!


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Where do you live? A child's wading pool can hold fish. Where I live they can be outside several months of the year. Frequent water changes can keep water quality good even in too small a tank. Eventually, you won't be able to keep up, but for now you should be able to keep your fish comfortable. Go ahead and treat for disease, but also keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. You say that you are new at this, so your tank could well be cycling and the fish suffering ammonia poisoning. Go really easy on feeding during medicating and during cycling. Consider feeding only every other day.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

I've had these guys for about two months now. All of their levels are fine. All of their chemicals that can be tested for are in the safe zones. One fish is perfectly healthy. The other two have redness at the base of their fins, one has it in his tail fin, and their tail fins look shredded or feathered. Every chemical is fine. From what I understand the "mess" that is so horrible in this size tank that I "can't keep up with" is the chemical levels (which I have under control) and the poop in the gravel which I can clean just fine. So I don't understand why it's "only a matter of time until I can't keep up with this and they get poisoned". 

I looked up a lot of info and they seem to have septicemia, or at least some bacterial infection that was likely compounded by the stress of me cleaning their tank so thoroughly to get rid of the cloudy stuff that began to grow on the gravel. I bought salt and put some of that in. It's keeping the gravel cleaner and the fish seemed a bit better after I added that. I don't think medicated flakes will work because they aren't eating hardly anything if anything at all. So I want to use a chemical to treat it then but I'm not sure which one to use. I also don't want to harm the healthy fish. I understand chemical levels will rise and an unhealthy fish can be pushed over the edge if I don't quarantine them, etc. I'm just asking if the medicine chemicals will harm the healthy fish. 

I live in a very overcrowded apartment in NY by the way. So no, a pool is not going to work. Businesses won't take the fish. I can't give them away unless the pet store takes them back. In order to consider giving them to anyone I have to make them healthy again first though. So that's what I need help with. I need to clear up the redness, and the feathered tail fins, and fix their appetite.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> if the medicine chemicals will harm the healthy fish.


There is always a chance of this, all medications have side effects and toxicity. However, as they are in the tank with the sick fish, they have been exposed to whatever it has and should be treated also. http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/fish_diseases/fins.html This site agrees with your diagnosis of septicemia. The antibiotic(s) suggested could well hurt your "good bacteria", so watch all your levels. 

I don't think your fish are in imminent danger of dying of overcrowding. As long as you watch you levels you should be able to prevent poisoning by increasing water changes as your fish grow. More likely they will start getting aggressive with each other before they need more frequent water changes than you are willing to give them. Go easy on feeding and you may have a few years. 

The common practice of selling goldfish to beginners with small tanks is a pet peeve of a lot of serious fish keepers, so please don't take the strong advice personally. At least you are aware of the situation. Too many people have goldfish that get fed a little more every day as they grow and don't know to increase the water changes to keep pace. Suddenly all the fish go belly up and the kids are crying.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

emc7 said:


> There is always a chance of this, all medications have side effects and toxicity. However, as they are in the tank with the sick fish, they have been exposed to whatever it has and should be treated also. http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/fish_diseases/fins.html This site agrees with your diagnosis of septicemia. The antibiotic(s) suggested could well hurt your "good bacteria", so watch all your levels.
> 
> I don't think your fish are in imminent danger of dying of overcrowding. As long as you watch you levels you should be able to prevent poisoning by increasing water changes as your fish grow. More likely they will start getting aggressive with each other before they need more frequent water changes than you are willing to give them. Go easy on feeding and you may have a few years.
> 
> The common practice of selling goldfish to beginners with small tanks is a pet peeve of a lot of serious fish keepers, so please don't take the strong advice personally. At least you are aware of the situation. Too many people have goldfish that get fed a little more every day as they grow and don't know to increase the water changes to keep pace. Suddenly all the fish go belly up and the kids are crying.


Thank you for that. You are my favorite today.  I got them a medicine to treat fin rot and septicemia as well as a few various other bacterial and fungal issues. It says a second dose can be done in four days so I guess I'll try to be patient until then and hope it helps them. The redness seems to be abating, though their tails are still messed up and they aren't eating much. It doesn't require a quarantine tank as other medicines in the store do so I chose it with the mind that it wouldn't harm little Harry. He doesn't look sick like the other two but he is acting sick like them (i.e. not eating much). So I didn't want to leave him out of it and accidentally let him get worse. Anyway, I think I'm good for now. 

I understand the tank size situation. I just can't give them a larger home now. I've begun to liken the opinions of all those who are berating me to my opinion of having dogs in apartments. I grew up on several acres with farmland and woods surrounding it. We raised dogs for show and breeding and we had horses etc. I would love to have a dog and I could. I'm just not comfortable keeping one in an environment where it can't have a yard to run free and safe in. Just like the people berating me feel strongly that fish should be given their optimal environment or be left to a better equipped caregiver. Well, just because I wouldn't keep a dog in an apartment doesn't mean there is something wrong with it. It doesn't mean the dogs that live in apartments aren't happy or don't have good lives. It would be nice if the "fish professionals" could take a step back and realize that they can simultaneously give advice to help people to do what they might not do themselves, and not condone behaviors that they might not do themselves. Helping me keep my fish happy in a "too small" tank isn't going to encourage me that they don't need a bigger home or something. It is just helping the fish. That ought to be more important than ensuring I know what I'm doing wrong. Obviously I know I'm doing something wrong or I wouldn't be asking for help. I don't want to berate anyone here. I'm just a bit frustrated with several forums for this same reason right now.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

I find it hard to believe that in the Buffalo area, there is no fish store that will take a few goldfish off your hands. Try other stores. I pretty much guaruntee someone will take them off your hands for you.
Also, you use the term "too small" in quotations, and because of your dog in the apartment speech, im getting the feeling that people elsewhere have flamed you for having too little of a tank without telling you WHY it is bad.
Fish grow. Most fancy goldfish will reach a length of 8". Some will grow up to a foot even, and this includes the "dime a dozen' comets many people buy. When fish grow, their body secretes a hormone that stunts their growth. In the wild that is fine, but in a small tank, larger fish (in relation to the tank) will secrete so much of this hormone that it is very very hard to keep up with, and unless you plan on doing 50+% water changes every day, the chemicals will play a part in the development of the fish. The fishes growth will be stunted, but when it is, its body will stop growing, but its internal organs will not. Eventually, this will cause a slow death.
Hopefully now you understand why this is different from a dog in an apartment. Its not just a space issue, its an issue of the animal's health. I definately recommend that you find a fish store that will take the fish off your hands and pick up something that will thrive in your tank. Also, know what you want to get beforehand, so you dont go into a store asking for, and recieving, bad advice.

PS- You say your chemical levels are fine. What exactly, in ppm, are your Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate levels? Furthermore, has the tank undergone a nitrate cycle?

-GS


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I agree with you about stunting Gourami, but we can't flame every poor noob who gets sold a bill of goods by the "experts" at the LFS. We have to help as best we can. If Jessiebug can get those fish healthy, and keep the water clean, they will stay alive long enough for Jessie to run into someone stocking a pond. What are the alternatives, really? Euthanasia. I know that frequent water changes can reduce or eliminate stunting, but I don't think either of us has any data on how much is necessary. I can only recommend that if the any of the fish aren't growing to double the water changes. And large water changes have their own risks. The problem is because goldfish are cheap to obtain, they are considered disposable. No pet store talks about foot long goldfish because they expect you to kill them quickly and come back for more fish or, even more profitably, to listen to us and buy a bigger tank. Don't assume someone isn't willing to do daily water changes. I did with my angel fry and people in China did it 3000 years ago and they didn't even have running water.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Im really not trying to flame anybody man... I think my post is pretty informative. I know its not his fault 
But I DO believe a pet store will take the fish for you. Check em all in your area.


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## Betta splendens (Nov 30, 2006)

Well I'm sure we'd all much rather not kill the fish, least of all intentionally. Is there anyone with a pond, natural or otherwise you can release them into? I'm very tempted to say spread them out in local small ponds (so they can't bread) but of course I can't actually suggest that.... You can ask around, or if you're desperate enough staple fliers right next to the "Has anyone seen Spot/Fluffy/Rover?" ones. You can maybe get some large tubs (in place of a small pond) but I assume that since a larger tank is out of the question you have limited space and probably no yard.

Best of luck, really.


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

You could also try Cragislist in your area as a place to give them away. ORRRRRRRRRR You can ask the LFS if they know of anyone with a big tank. With a little research you should be able to find a nice home for them. 

In the meantime it sounds a little like you have test strips since you used the words "safe zone." Those are not so good and I would recommend getting a liquid test. The red stripes through the fins are very often related to poor water quality and if your test strip says "hey its safe" but is inaccurate then there is a problem! If you do choose to get this test kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals has a really good test kit) please post the actual numbers that you receive. It should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 40 nitrates. Since your fish are showing red already I would suggest not letting nitrates get above 10 if you can help it. Even if it means daily water changes. Goldfish are messy messy!

I wish you the best with your fishies. I think it is awesome that you want to make their lives better!


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Obsidian said:


> You could also try Cragislist in your area as a place to give them away. ORRRRRRRRRR You can ask the LFS if they know of anyone with a big tank. With a little research you should be able to find a nice home for them.
> 
> In the meantime it sounds a little like you have test strips since you used the words "safe zone." Those are not so good and I would recommend getting a liquid test. The red stripes through the fins are very often related to poor water quality and if your test strip says "hey its safe" but is inaccurate then there is a problem! If you do choose to get this test kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals has a really good test kit) please post the actual numbers that you receive. It should be 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 40 nitrates. Since your fish are showing red already I would suggest not letting nitrates get above 10 if you can help it. Even if it means daily water changes. Goldfish are messy messy!
> 
> I wish you the best with your fishies. I think it is awesome that you want to make their lives better!


I am using test strips. Your logic is ... umm.. logical. I just assumed the problem was some chemical not listed on the test strips, and all of the things you can test for (according to what's sold in petsmart) are listed on the strips I have. What is a liquid test? How much does it normally cost? Would one kit test for everything or would I need multiple kits to test for everything?

I got some Jungle brand stuff that is a one dose (repeatable in 4 days if necessary) and treats fin rot and septicemia. It made the water a little greenish colored and I'm going to clean like 25% of it on Sunday to give it time to do its thing. I can't tell if their color has gotten better or if it's the water color making it look better. They are more active though since I put it in so I hope that means it's working. They certainly don't make me think they're getting worse anymore, so that's something. I haven't seen them eat (though I give them like three or four little goldfish flakes a few times a day now to see if they're interestedin it yet) but I've certainly seen them pooping regularly throughout this ordeal so biologically I have to assume they aren't starving.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

What are your chemical readings (Ammonia, Nitrate, nitrite), and Have you cycled the tank? See my post above


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

I have test strips that test all of the chemicals you can test for in the store using whatever kits they sell (ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, chlorine, alkalinity, pH, and hardness). They give intervals and you match up the color so I can't give an exact number. I didn't know there was a way to get an exact number or that it mattered, from what I could tell I was testing for all relevant chemicals and they are in their safe zones. This gave me no indication that something was amiss. I logically deduced that something I don't have a test kit for is wrong with the tank. Perhaps it is the strips though. I can't tell until I get some other form of test kit to contradict this one and I can't do that today nor do I know how much they cost or what ones are reliable if these aren't. According to the strips, all of the things I can test for are fine. 

I didn't know about cycling a tank until I started looking at how to help them out. I've had them in this tank for about 2 months now. The only time I emptied the whole thing to clean it was about a week ago when this cloud like stuff was taking over the bottom of it and they were staying at the top. When I cleaned it that must have stressed them out and messed something up (something I can't test for) because I went out of town for three days just after cleaning it and when I came back they had these issues. I came back on Sunday. My roommate was feeding them while I was gone.

I don't know if I cycled it. I don't think I did since from what I've read it seems to involve adding in some sorts of fish just for that purpose and the only fish I put in there are these three.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

If you dont know if you cycled it, chances are that you didnt 
Also, the strips that give you a "safe" indicator are wrong 90% of this time. What is probably happening to your fish is an over abundance of ammonia, nitrate, or nitrites. I, and everyone else here, will be able to help you best if you get an accurate (exact number) reading.
And i cant stress enought that the entire problem will be solved if you bring the fish into a LFS!


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Does LFS stand for local fish store? Again, I ask, what is a reliable test kit if those strips aren't? Nothing that is for sale will tell me that it is unreliable, it will look as trustworthy to me as anything else. I can't afford to buy random things and see if they work. I just don't have the money for that.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Most of the Liquid Test kits sold in LFS (local fish stores) are of decent quality. Anything from AP (aquarium phamacuticals) or Nutrifin will be good. Basically, most liquid test kits that test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and sometimes PH, will be 110% more accurate than strips.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Why are strips so innacurate? Is it an issue of reading the colors correctly and that they only give interval readings and not exact numbers? Again, about how much do these things cost normally?


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## Obsidian (May 20, 2007)

You can get the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals "Master Test Kit for Freshwater" and that will give you ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and PH. Those are the big ones for what you are dealing with so that kit would be fine. I can't remember how much it cost. Any local fish store or chain store (petco petsmart etc) should sell that.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

This one would be fine. They ar enormally 15-20 bucks and will last you a long time. http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa..._test_kit?&query=test+kit&queryType=0&offset=


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

and DO NOT buy it at your LFS as they're probably going to have it priced at $35 or more ... I've seen that kit priced at $45 and higher at some LFS's. I get all of my dry goods and most foods online as it's normally half the price or better that way. I support the LFS's that are aware that I have other options and will work with me on their prices but those are normally mom & pop stores and usually only after you've developed a "relationship" with them purchasing livestock and some goods as well as bringing in fry/juvi fish you are breeding to them cheap.


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

Jessiebug829 said:


> Why are strips so innacurate? Is it an issue of reading the colors correctly and that they only give interval readings and not exact numbers? Again, about how much do these things cost normally?



most of the test strips started out mainly for home pools/spas as a quick way to get a general idea of a pools water chemistry. the ease of use has cause many people to use them on their home aquariums and while good for testing if you have ANY ammonia or nitrate/nitrite and a ball park of ph they are not nearly as accurate as the dry tabs or liquid tests. 

I've been told the dry tabs are more accurate than the liquid but they are also more costly and the # of test are usually less than half and they cost more than the liquid. The "drops" or liquid tests suffice just fine more most freshwater aquarists and I know my fair share of salties that use them too. AND most importantly, like I said in my previous post don't get these at your LFS unless they are giving you a heck of a deal ( and if they are make sure you check the expiration dates on the tests!!). Always have a general idea of the "online" price (plus shipping) of the products you need when shopping at your LFS's. There are several 1000 online "shops" with varying degrees of stock and products but the big 3 I use for price comparison are Big Al's that was linked to earlier, drs foster and smith (formerly pet warehouse) and that pet place (formerly that fish place, well still is kinda, just expanded). Most other sites will be around or slightly above, some well above those 3 shops.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Thank you for that. The test kit looks familiar. If I remember correctly I considered it but decided against it because it was too expensive. I'm doing the best I can. I use the strips to tell me what to worry about, but I keep an eye on them and do what is necessary to have them acting happy and comfortable. When I can afford exact numbers I will do that.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The problem with all tests is that you need a known sample to test the test. Test strips generally have a shorter "good" time than liquid tests, but even liquid tests can become inaccurate if too old. Don't put all your faith in a kit, even an expensive one. If the tank smells bad, tastes bad, or the fish are gasping for breath, change water regardless of a "fine" test.


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## Willow (Mar 20, 2005)

As long as you keep up the water changes (80% water changes twice a week would not be excessive), the fish should be OK for a while. As long as you're just changing the water and not messing with the gravel or filter media, it won't mess up your cycle to do such large WCs. Yes, the goldfish will get to be a foot long eventually (it happened to me!), but doing the water changes should buy you enough time to seek out a decent home for them. Put an ad up at pet stores, maybe place an ad on craigslist or somewhere----I found a guy with a pond to take my fish, maybe you can too. 

If you can find any, I prefer medicated fish foods instead of treating the entire tank. They seem to work a lot faster, too. And they won't mess up your cycle. You'll have to re-cycle the tank after this treatment---the antibiotics will kill the good bacteria, too.


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## neilfishguy (Oct 7, 2007)

Betta splendens said:


> Well I'm sure we'd all much rather not kill the fish, least of all intentionally. Is there anyone with a pond, natural or otherwise you can release them into? I'm very tempted to say spread them out in local small ponds (so they can't bread) but of course I can't actually suggest thatBest of luck, really.


by posting this you do suggestest it...
DO NOT release your fish into natural ponds. It can ruin the eco system


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## neilfishguy (Oct 7, 2007)

emc7 said:


> If the tank smells bad, tastes bad, or the fish are gasping for breath, change water regardless of a "fine" test.


LOL i wouldnt recomend tasting aquarium water :lol:


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If you don't dare taste your water, you need to change more water. Yes, I know that there are some tropical diseases you can get from a fishtank, but I always get a mouthful when I start the siphon. I used to have a cat that would drink out of the filter on the back of a tank (the tank was up against the stairs), when she stopped, it was time for a big water change.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

I would have used the medicated flakes because it would have been better for their environment, I realize that. However, they have no appetite. They are pooping regularly so they must be eating something, but when I feed them a tiny amount hey have no interest. All week I've been feeding them a tiny bit a few times a day to see if they have any interest (same amount of food overall but at least this way there is a chance it won't all get sucked into the filter leaving them hungry all day if they do get hungry later). So if I'd used the flakes it might not have done any good with no gaurantee that they'd eat them. At least with the chemical I'm sure it's taking effect, they seem to be quite a bit better.

*Any idea on how soon you see improvement after treating for tail rot?* It doesn't seem to be getting worse anymore but they still look feathered. Do they grow back or are they like this forever now?

I wouldn't put them in any outdoor water source as I live in NY and it's currently snowing. I think the shock of the temperature change would kill them even if they could survive in this climate. Maybe I'm wrong about that but better safe than sorry.

Like I said, I watch the fish to tell me when something in their tank is out of whack. I use the strips to tell me what the likely culprit is. If the strips say all is well but they look ill then I'm going to find out what's wrong because regardless of what the strips say I know that the fish are a better judge of their envrionmental comfort than any test kit is. That's why I started looking for help. If I just trusted the strips they'd probably be dead right now. Their water contents were fine according to those things throughout all of this. Obviously something has been wrong though.

Their ammonia level has gone up since using the medicine. It says a second dose can be given in four days if necessary. I am using that as a judge of how long to let it work. So tomorrow will be four days and I'm going to change some of their water then and try to get that back in order and see how they do. I had to take the carbon out of the filter also to let the stuff work so I'm sure that's not helping much. They're toughing it out though. They are definitely more active again and that's what I like to see. Now if I can just see them start to eat again that would be great.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Homie is eating! Homie is eating! and the little Harry and Marty are into it too.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Well thats all well and good, But have you found a suitable home, or even an lfs, to take them?


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

Gourami Swami said:


> Well thats all well and good, But have you found a suitable home, or even an lfs, to take them?


dood ... it's been 2 days AND they're trying to get them healthy albeit in less than ideal conditions but at least they're trying. these people aren't the first and won't be that last to get misinformed by a LFS. Unfortunately that's just the way it happens but by coming here and researching which this person is doing they learn. The CONSTANT nagging and ridicule is not only unnecessary it's uncalled for in this case. They ARE trying to get better quarters for their pet and learning what they should be doing.

Take a look at the title under your user name and try and live up to it. Slightly more subtle than what ... a punch in the face ... chill out and let them be. 

I've been on sites that are full of people that just can't let something go and it makes new comers feel unwelcome when they are trying to learn. You can't save every fish out there, I'm pretty adamant about fish husbandry myself but you have to realize when you've done all you can OR when you have reached someone and they are trying ... JOBS DONE here they are trying!


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Joe, I think you're possibly the one whose overreacting a bit. Swami just must have missed the whole "get them well first so somebody would maybe take them" part.

Betta Splendens, ( _and everybody else_ ), releasing ANY fish into ANY natural waters is a major crime, INCLUDING fish originally from those very waters. Goldfish are especially bad for many reasons, not the least of which is the high rate of viral infection they carry. Never suggest such a thing again, and never actually do it. Bear in mind that there are quite a number of people trying very hard to outlaw fishkeeping in this country completely, and stuff like that just makes it all too easy for them.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Joe isn't as over reactive as you think. This has been the mildest treatment I've received about the situation. I'm sticking with this forum because you all have managed to let it go, most of you anyway. Other forums don't have any interest in helpin me because they disapprove. I don't think that's fair to the fish, particularly since I'm trying to help them.

Anyway, yes. Now that they're doing better I just posted an ad on craigslist offering them up for free to a suitably large home. No businesses that I've been in have fish tanks large enough to hold them properly, in fact I can only think of one place that has a fish tank and they won't take them. I know in the movies every medical officehas a fish tank, it's not reality. At least not here. I'm doing the best I can. At least I am trying.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

Jessie, 
I admire your dedication to try and help your fish, most "newbies" would have given up by now. You should be proud of yourself.
I use the strips as well as the drop tests. With the strips you need to match the colors as close as possible, if it falls between two colors, then divide the number readings in half. Try that, and let us know what numbers you come up with. 
Here are is a site that will help you more with understanding the nitrifying cycle...
http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/WaterQuality/NatureBalance.htm 

Also if you have a Petco in your area, talk to the Aquatics Specialist, they have a policy of taking in healthy fish and putting them up for adoption (free to good home). Don't ever release ANY type of fish into the wild, it is very illegal and with good reasons. The wild ecosystems are very delicate, and any disease or invasive species could devastate it. I know of several stores in NY that would gladly take your "healthy" fish, what part of NY are you in?
Good luck & keep up the good work, SueM


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Thank you for that Sue. I usually go to petsmart, petco is too expensive for me. I'm near Buffalo. I know you all have to post the advisory against releasing them to the wild in case any other random person reads this. I'm too worried the change in temperature shock might kill them so I wouldn't even consider doing that. (In addition to all ther easons you all gave as to why you can't do that). No worries there. 

I cleaned some of their tank again today since the medicine messed up their ammonia levels and it's had time to work now and they're eating again. Marty and Homie are the two that looked sick. They had tail rot (in addition to the redness) and the stuff I gave them treats for that. Their tails had gotten to look all feathered instead of solid and were breaking off a little bit so they weren't shaped in the W shape anymore. Homie's tail seems to be getting better. It's solid again and shorter than it was before all this, a bit rough around the edge but the shape is good and he seems fine now. Marty seems better too but his tail looks like it's basically gone except for a little bit. Maybe that's how it will heal and all that was left wasn't any good anymore so it just came off. 

Am I wrong in thinking they grow back? Even if they're a little stumpier they will still grow back won't they? Poor Marty doesn't have much left at all and I'd feel bad if he's all gimpy forever.


































Homie is the orange and blackish one, Marty is the one in all the pictures. He's silvery colored. Do you think his tail will get better? Like I said Homie's seems to have improved some.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

Jessie, call "The Fish Place" in North Tonawanda, 693-4411, ask to speak to Jake Mang (my brother in law). He takes in and buys fish from people all the time. He can also help you with getting them healthy. And yes, their tails will grow back, maybe not as long and pretty, but they will. Getting a small bottle of garlic guard from Jake will definitely help with their appetites, and you can also soak their food in it.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Thanks so much. I'll look into that as soon as I can.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Marty seems to have a little white lump on his side. I thought something was different about his scales, related to what was wrong before. This seems to be developing now though. I can't get a clear picture but the best I can describe it is that it looks like if proportionately a person had a single white leech or a maggot attached to their side. It's a little white bump and it doesn't look like it's part of him, rather it's attached to him. I looked up some parasite pictures but none of them are even close, so I don't know what it is. I am going to call the person you mentioned, Sue, on Monday. I'd just like to try to figure this issue out too if I can. Any ideas on what I could search to see if I can figure out what this is?


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

TOS, Sue Thanks for coming in to "help" guide her in the right direction. 

I might have overreacted a little, I know I'm not perfect  

Jessie,
Hopefully Jake can get you squared away, if that store is not too far away I'd recommend you do most of your aquatic creature shopping there, the Mang family knows their stuff and won't send you up any more rivers like that one you are traveling now with these goldfish.


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

Sounds to me like a possible parisite, you can try a 30 min salt dip, use 1 tablespoon of salt (aquarium salt from the LFS) per gallon in a small container. same temp as the tank, watch him very closely, if he starts looking stressed or lays on the bottom, remove him back to the tank immediately 
Here's a site that may give you names & meds to help with research........ http://www.klsnet.com/files/fishchart.htm


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It looks more like secondary fungus in the pics to me, the nasty deep-flesh kind. It might clear up on it's own as a result of the other treatment, but if not it can be treated separately. The treatment Sue suggested would be a good place to start.

I think you'll like that store Sue mentioned. It's something of a legend, and I guess you'll soon see why.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Well when I looked at Marty this morning he now has fluffy whiteness (fungus I assume) all over his tail end, and the white thing has gotten fluffier too. So I did another dose of the stuff I used before since it is a fungus treatment and it's not harming the other two. If it doesn't seem to have an effect on him by tomorrow then I'll take himout and do the salt thing and change some of the water to get some of the medicine out of it to benefit the other two. It worked well on the fin rot and the redness so hopefully it will do the same for this. 

Is it normal (in terms of fish getting sick) for them to just get sick like this? I know that something in their environment got messed up when I cleaned their tank but if nothing bad was introduced to the tank then I suppose I don't understand how they got sick. Is it just whatever badness is in all of the poop they produce that they got more susceptible to it with the stress of the tank cleaning?


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Overreacting, joe? Its not like im yelling at him. And im DEFINATELY not "ridiculing" him. I am trying to help. And about "letting it go"... its not like the fish will be able to live out their life in the tank. I was telling him to rehome them because i did not realize how sick they were. Now that i have seen pictures i do. But even after the fish have been made healthy, Sue's suggestion of petco's adoption service would be a good way to go.
I agree with TOS... looks like some pretty nasty fungus. A salt dip might do the trick.
And no jessie, its not normal for them to randomly get sick. Have you tested with a liquid kit? that will give us some insight as to the problem. BTW, when yyour not completely sure as to what th eproblem is its not advised to medicate.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Gourami, I am a girl. Please stop referring to me as a male.

I told you that all levels are in the safe zone. Giving you a specific number that is one digit off of what you think is ideal will only help you harass me more. Since I have no intention of giving you more ammunition I am not giving you any numbers. 

I am giving Marty a salt bath. I medicated them for what they have. Do you take all of your fish to a fish vet? No, you do your research and figure out what is wrong. Then you treat for what you conclude is the issue. I did. It worked. Obviously he is having other issues. So I am now treating for those. 

I don't appreciate being talked to as a newbie _by you_ because you apparently think there is something inherently wrong with being uneducated regardless of any efforts to become educated. You weren't born educated. You did the work and got to where you are now. I am currently trying to take advantage of the knowledge of others (which is how _you_ got educated unless you relied solely on fish experiments and trial and error to educate yourself) and thus do the same work to educate myself that you all did. Either you are going to help me or you are not. _Here's a hint, berating me and telling me repeatedly what is wrong with my behavior (instead of helping me fix each particular problem in a logical order so I can ultimately solve the problem of giving them the best home; and, no, that does not start with me just handing them over to a professional who is apparently inadequate while they're still sick and washing my hands of them) is not helping me._ So please stop. 

If you haven't got anything constructive to add to this thread then please stop adding things.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Jessiebug829 said:


> Gourami, I am a girl. Please stop referring to me as a male.
> 
> I told you that all levels are in the safe zone. Giving you a specific number that is one digit off of what you think is ideal will only help you harass me more. Since I have no intention of giving you more ammunition I am not giving you any numbers.
> 
> ...



...Wow.

First, The "safe zone" information doesnt help the situation at all. and being one point off from what not only I, but anyone who knows about the nitrogen cycle and ammonia poisoning, think is wrong, Is still bad. I realize you were misinformed at the lfs and thus havent performed a nitrogen cycle, but the exact points really WOULD help, because I think the sickness of these fish is being helped along by bad water conditions. Ammunition? where here have i tried to shoot you down? I havent.

And about the next thing, TOS and many others will tell you the same thing i did about not medicating until you have a confirmed diagnosis. Giving fish medication for an illness they dont have can be harmful. (PS- not to be rude, but i just took a sick severum of mine to a fish vet two days ago.)

There is nothign incoherently wrong with being uneducated, and i never said or even implied that there was. You _are_ a newbie, and there is nothing wrong with that at all! Everybody was! 

I just posted today that i did not realize how bad their illness was and that was why I suggested giving them up. Then i proceeded to suggest a treatment, and even answer a question nobody else had in a calm manner. I have in NO WAY berated you! You doing things like calling me out and using "you" in italics is being just as "cruel" as you say I have been! I have done nothing but try to help you in this thread, if you cant see that i dont know what else to say.


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## Gourami Swami (Jul 4, 2006)

Gourami Swami said:


> I find it hard to believe that in the Buffalo area, there is no fish store that will take a few goldfish off your hands. Try other stores. I pretty much guaruntee someone will take them off your hands for you.
> Also, you use the term "too small" in quotations, and because of your dog in the apartment speech, im getting the feeling that people elsewhere have flamed you for having too little of a tank without telling you WHY it is bad.
> Fish grow. Most fancy goldfish will reach a length of 8". Some will grow up to a foot even, and this includes the "dime a dozen' comets many people buy. When fish grow, their body secretes a hormone that stunts their growth. In the wild that is fine, but in a small tank, larger fish (in relation to the tank) will secrete so much of this hormone that it is very very hard to keep up with, and unless you plan on doing 50+% water changes every day, the chemicals will play a part in the development of the fish. The fishes growth will be stunted, but when it is, its body will stop growing, but its internal organs will not. Eventually, this will cause a slow death.
> Hopefully now you understand why this is different from a dog in an apartment. Its not just a space issue, its an issue of the animal's health. I definately recommend that you find a fish store that will take the fish off your hands and pick up something that will thrive in your tank. Also, know what you want to get beforehand, so you dont go into a store asking for, and recieving, bad advice.
> ...





Gourami Swami said:


> Im really not trying to flame anybody man... I think my post is pretty informative. I know its not his fault
> But I DO believe a pet store will take the fish for you. Check em all in your area.





Gourami Swami said:


> What are your chemical readings (Ammonia, Nitrate, nitrite), and Have you cycled the tank? See my post above





Gourami Swami said:


> If you dont know if you cycled it, chances are that you didnt
> Also, the strips that give you a "safe" indicator are wrong 90% of this time. What is probably happening to your fish is an over abundance of ammonia, nitrate, or nitrites. I, and everyone else here, will be able to help you best if you get an accurate (exact number) reading.
> And i cant stress enought that the entire problem will be solved if you bring the fish into a LFS!





Gourami Swami said:


> Most of the Liquid Test kits sold in LFS (local fish stores) are of decent quality. Anything from AP (aquarium phamacuticals) or Nutrifin will be good. Basically, most liquid test kits that test for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and sometimes PH, will be 110% more accurate than strips.





Gourami Swami said:


> This one would be fine. They ar enormally 15-20 bucks and will last you a long time. http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCat...Type=0&offset=





Gourami Swami said:


> Well thats all well and good, But have you found a suitable home, or even an lfs, to take them?





Gourami Swami said:


> verreacting, joe? Its not like im yelling at him. And im DEFINATELY not "ridiculing" him. I am trying to help. And about "letting it go"... its not like the fish will be able to live out their life in the tank. I was telling him to rehome them because i did not realize how sick they were. Now that i have seen pictures i do. But even after the fish have been made healthy, Sue's suggestion of petco's adoption service would be a good way to go.
> I agree with TOS... looks like some pretty nasty fungus. A salt dip might do the trick.
> And no jessie, its not normal for them to randomly get sick. Have you tested with a liquid kit? that will give us some insight as to the problem. BTW, when yyour not completely sure as to what th eproblem is its not advised to medicate.


Well, there it is. Every post i have made in this topic save for the last one i just made. Read through it all. I have not harassed, berated, or put down anyone. Period. I tried offering help to you calmly and I was flamed for "flaming". If anything, I feel like the only one who has been harassed or berated in the whole thread. Do you think my first post was insulting just because i wasnt babying you? Your going to have to get used to that in life. You say i use "ammunition" against you like i am sitting here plotting new ways to harass you. Well, I tried my best and hopefully you can now see that I have done nothing. I feel rather unapreciated actually. Im just going to stop posting in this thread so im not accused of anything else.


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2007)

Jessiebug829 said:


> Is it normal (in terms of fish getting sick) for them to just get sick like this? I know that something in their environment got messed up when I cleaned their tank but if nothing bad was introduced to the tank then I suppose I don't understand how they got sick. Is it just whatever badness is in all of the poop they produce that they got more susceptible to it with the stress of the tank cleaning?


Fungal infections often appear as a secondary infection. Meaning, it's not abnormal for this fungus to have appeared on your fish after such a nasty bit of fin rot. The stress of the previous illness and the tank conditions did make the fish more susceptible, yes, but I wouldn't go as far as saying the actual tank cleaning caused enough stress. I'd assume there are other factors; the fin rot, water chemistry? An external anti-fungal medication should clear it up.

For the record, I don't think anyone in this thread should be "flamed." And that's not just referring to the treatment of the OP . I read this entire thread and think you've gotten some very helpful information, Jessie. Nelson, Gourami Swami, has tried to help you, as has everyone else. That's why we're here; we love fish and love keeping them. I'd just like to remind everyone, this is the internet, people are misunderstood all the time .


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## Willow (Mar 20, 2005)

I know this is kinda random, but a lot of people have been recommending that you take your goldfish to PetCo to be adopted out. This of course would get them out of your hair, but I personally would not do it. The employees at PetCo are not particularly concerned about WHO adopts the fish, so they'd most likely end up in a 2.5 gallon tank owned by a 7-year-old kid who knows how to beg loudly, whose parents are hoping the fish will die quickly. Or just end up in another 10g, this time with someone who ISN'T willing to go to a fish forum to ask how to improve things. I guess I would want to know what kind of home they would be going to. Just another point of view to consider  .


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

Gourami Swami said:


> Overreacting, joe? Its not like im yelling at him. And im DEFINATELY not "ridiculing" him. I am trying to help. And about "letting it go"... its not like the fish will be able to live out their life in the tank. I was telling him to rehome them because i did not realize how sick they were. Now that i have seen pictures i do. But even after the fish have been made healthy, Sue's suggestion of petco's adoption service would be a good way to go.


Swami ... As indicated by her post directly under the one I quoted here, I was simply reading the non-verbals ( in between the lines if you will) that; 1) she was attempting to better the fishes health and planning on getting them a new home once healthy, 2) she was learning more about the hobby and what she needed to be successful, and most importantly 3) becoming agitated with the more than frequent suggestions of getting rid of them which she had intentions of once they were healthy going back to her second or 3 post on here.

I calmly suggested that you give her a little more than 2 days to get them healthy and prepared for a new home and had you read Sues posts she has been referred to Jake Mang's store and I'm more than sure the highly competent folks there will prevent anything like this from happening again (in her case anyway) 

Truth be told I brought this posts attention to TOS and Sue because of the direction I felt it was headed and Sue came in and gave some great advice and TOS scolded me via PM for being a little too sensitive so consider it a learning experiance for the both of us. Turns out I wasn't far off base with my feelings after all. 

I was in no way trying to belittle you or your advise I was simply reading the tension in her posts rising and her frustration with the whole situation (dealing with the sick fish and constant reminders that she needed to get rid of them)


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## joe kool (Jan 24, 2005)

Gourami Swami said:


> And no jessie, its not normal for them to randomly get sick.


YES ... especially in tank/pond raised environments is it normal for "some" fish to just get sick ... you will have a genetically weaker species once you get 2 or 3 generations into this scenario and not having "survival of the fittest" rules in play (because we humans believe that every last one has to survive no matter how sick, deformed, or what ever; just look at our medical system today and the time energy and money we put into saving every little life on an already severely overpopulated planet. Not that I wouldn't do the same, as I said it's human nature ... not natures plan.) 

In nature if a fish even "coughs" or swims a little differently or maybe even doing nothing wrong at all just not fast enough to get to cover their toast. you only have the very strongest of the species that survive and they procreate and only the strongest out of that generation survive. 

There are no absolutes in life sans 2 things being born and dieing.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

I didn't mean to flame you Gourami. I was simply trying to make myself clear that the constant reminders of why I need to get rid of them are unnecessary. Having perfect water chemistry will help them, but I can only give you the information I know which is that the test strips all say they are safe. I can give you the intervals on the test strips but that wouldn't mean much. I am a very broke college student. I had a choice of buying these fish a fungal treatment and fish salt to help them, or a test kit to give you exact numbers. I chose the medicine. I can't tell you what I can't tell you. 

I am getting more stressed (as joe rightly observed) every time someone reminds me that I need to get rid of them or find a random place that they're "sure" (as you put it) I should easily be able to find. It implies I'm not trying. For a constructive comment regarding my getting rid of them you should see Sue's posts for an example. She helped me find a place. I know I need to give them a better home. Please read that sentence and absorb it because I'm quite tired of repeating it. That's why I got upset with you.

I appreciate your input, as long as it's constructive and not redundant.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

So the latest is that someone contacted me about the ad I placed on Craigslist. They have a 50 gal tank with just algae eaters in it now and think my fish would be a nice christmas present for their kids. I've been given the impression these fish need (quite) a bit more space than that but it would be a vast improvement over what I'm giving them now. Can anyone help me decide if this is a bad idea or not?


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## Willow (Mar 20, 2005)

I think a 50g tank would be a decent home for 3 goldies for many years. It's not a perfect situation, but it's definitely better than most goldfish get, and is probably the best placement you can expect to find for them. As long as the family understand that they can't put 7 or 8 more goldies in with them. That's my opinion.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

So it turns out the white bump I couldn't identify is an anchor worm. It says I need to pick it off with tweezers. I'm afraid to hurt him so I'm going to call the fish store Sue suggested (rather, I did call but they aren't open yet) and see if they'll help me first. He still has a fungus all over his tail like a sock and around where the worm is.

How does an anchor worm get in to the tank? I don't understand that.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

I didn't add any new fish or plants or anything living to the tank since I put them in it two months ago though. The only thing I've added to their tank that is new for them (not given before this past week) is aquarium salt and a fungus treatment that dissolves int he water. They've had the same fish food, filters all from the same box, water from the same tap, etc. Any ideas where it might have come from? Am I to suspect parasites in our water now, because that's a whole bigger issue than just poor Marty.

Is it possible he always had the parasite and it just came out opportunistically after the septicemia and the fin rot since Marty is weaker?


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

Well Marty died while I was at class today. I just found him. At least he isn't suffering anymore. 

I still don't understand how the worm got into the tank to begin with since I didn't add any living things into it.


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## Jessiebug829 (Nov 28, 2007)

If it's possible to edit, can someone fix the spelling on septicemia in the title of this thread? For posterity's sake it's been bugging me practically since I created it.  Thank you for all of your help here. It's much appreciated and I'll be here for help with my future fish ventures. Hopefully in the not too distant future.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2007)

Ha, I read right over the spelling error. Can you not edit your initial post and change it? I've never tried it myself on here, but it's worked other places. A mod may do it for you


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

There ya go, it's fixed.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Sorry for your loss. I know you tried everything you could. For all the effort we put into treating disease, most really sick fish do die. Hopefully your efforts will help the other two.


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