# Low tech 29; critiques wanted



## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

I finally made a real attempt at scaping my 29gal low tech and am finally pleased with it. Keep in mind, I have NO idea what I'm doing and it doesn't look anything like those nice show tanks you see. But it's WAY better than what it looked like before. Comments and suggestions wanted on how to improve! Thanks!

Oh, and is this considered "moderately" planted?

2wpg compact fluorescent strip lighting (1x65) on for 12 hours daily
substrate - Eco complete
pH - 8.2
GH/KH - liquid rock
temp - 80F (26.5C)

*Plants:*

some grass like thingy with strap-shaped leaves
Pennywort (my find when I visited the big city)
Cabomba
crypt - growing like mad in my tank; sends out ridiculously long roots; very easy to divide and have now placed all over my tank from the one plant I purchased a couple months ago
Giant Hygro
Amazon Sword plant
Val - totally melted or munched but still sending out runners and colonizing the back right corner rapidly, although only 3" tall
baby tears - random strands that are slowly rooting
Four leaf clover (_Marsilea drummondii_) - one little clump I purchased as a potted plant; really want this to spread as a carpet
Java moss
Anarchis

*Ferts*
I doze with Flourish Excel every other day
No CO2


*Fish*
4 swordtails (2F/2M)
1 Mollie
4 Mollie juveniles
6 Neon Tetras
1 clown pleco
5 Zebra botia

Ron taught me to use taller plants to cover filter intakes, etc. That one concept helped me start the design. The plants aren't very dense yet, since I just planted them today. But they've been sitting free in the tank for a week and have been pearling like mad and have already all sent out roots and the anarchis and cabomba has already had some new growth.

I know the pot with the strap-leaved plant coming out of it looks funny, but my substrate is only 1.5" deep and the thick roots on this plant were bigger than that. I wasn't comfortable cutting the roots, so I stuck it through the bottom of this coconut fiber pot and also cut a hole in the side of the pot for fish to enjoy as a cave. That way the plant was sort of held in place and I didn't have to stare at the ugly roots. Plus my fish need more hiding spots.

I have some smaller pieces of driftwood soaking/curing that will be covered with java moss and put in there somewhere for the pleco and loaches.

I want something like dwarf hairgrass to carpet the bottom. The baby tears was supposed to do that, and it is rooting, but I think that will take a ridiculously long time. My LFS has micro Val which looks cool but it keeps getting pulled up one strand at a time and you just can't replant one strand of that stuff.

Edited: The photos are out of order, but they're labeled with the date they were taken. The most current is the one with the clay pots. Oh, and that green stem that appears to be floating at the top of the tank is strand of terrestrial Asparagus fern I'm trying to root.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It looks pretty cool so far, but what's with the bubble wand?
Bubbles wands and live plants are natural foes.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Sam: You have done good here!



Manthalynn said:


> Oh, and is this considered "moderately" planted?


Now kinda lightly planted but if you are successful in six months it will be heavily planted.




Manthalynn said:


> I doze with Flourish Excel every other day
> No CO2


Sam: Excel is principally carbon and is kinda a substitute for CO2.

Please go out and get a bottle of Flourish and use for now along with the Excel (ie. until you get some experience with this tank).




Manthalynn said:


> 5 Zebra botia


Sam: I believe that I observed one of these in one photograph and it appeared to be approximately 2" in length.

With the pots and the hole in the wood I do not believe that stunting will be problem but they should be approximately 3" in six months.

TR


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## Dragonbeards (Dec 14, 2008)

Hey, it looks cool! I am hoping to eventualy have a planted tank (right now it is only plastic) so congrats on getting one up!


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## Buggy (Oct 17, 2006)

I think it looks pretty darn good. I like the log, I'm a sucker for odd driftwood.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

TheOldSalt said:


> It looks pretty cool so far, but what's with the bubble wand?
> Bubbles wands and live plants are natural foes.


Well, I've heard so many different answers on this that I just kept it out of habit. (I thought perhaps it would be pulling in some CO2 along with the O2 from the air.) But I've always had good luck with your advice so I'll nix it. I don't really like the looks of it right now anyway. 

The fish used to like swimming in it but I haven't seen them in there lately, probably because they have all those plants to play in now.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Sam: You have done good here!


Thanks!



> Now kinda lightly planted but if you are successful in six months it will be heavily planted.


 Good to know. That was my hope, that it would fill in eventually. I didn't want to overcrowd the plants that are getting established and developing roots because they need all the area they can get of their leaves to be photosynthetically active until they're established.



> Excel is principally carbon and is kinda a substitute for CO2.
> 
> Please go out and get a bottle of Flourish and use for now along with the Excel (ie. until you get some experience with this tank).


I actually figured this out last night! (I'm so proud of myself for actually realizing something on my own!) I already have a bottle of Flourish so I can start right away.



> I believe that I observed one of these in one photograph and it appeared to be approximately 2" in length.
> 
> With the pots and the hole in the wood I do not believe that stunting will be a problem but they should be approximately 3" in six months.


Yes, they're about 2" now. I was a little worried about them growing out of this tank, but I wanted to give them a proper school and I was hoping that as they are bottom dwellers, they would have enough room. My goal is to create as many caves and hiding places as possible, because my swordtails even like their little caves. And with this many fish, they all need their own space.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

Dragonbeards said:


> Hey, it looks cool! I am hoping to eventualy have a planted tank (right now it is only plastic) so congrats on getting one up!


Thanks! I've been doing a lot of research and everyone here has helped me a lot. I wanted to post my progress so that people like me a few months ago and people like you now can look back at this and learn where I made mistakes and the advice people gave to me as a beginner. Good luck with yours!

Cute pony by the way! I left all our horses behind in Washington...



> I think it looks pretty darn good. I like the log, I'm a sucker for odd driftwood.


Buggy, I liked both of the logs, too. But they were taking up too much space and I wasn't sure how to encorporate them into the design. I may be using the smaller one in a corner some day...

That I think was my biggest advancement - to stop trying to have a center focal point that was so geometric and mathmatical. Off centered is ok! I accidentally purhased two clay pots of different sizes but I realized afterward it looks better with uneven...


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

TheOldSalt said:


> It looks pretty cool so far, but what's with the bubble wand?
> Bubbles wands and live plants are natural foes.


Ok, the bubble wand is off in the 29. However, I also have a 10gal planted at about the same level which is where I keep my females that are about to drop and also the resultant fry. I've heard that lots of oxygen is important for fry and mothers. Are the plants (at the level I have the tank planted) providing enough O2 that I can shut the bubble wand off?

I also have a 5 gal where I'm keeping one expectant mother and soon just the fry. It has some java fern and java moss but that's it. How 'bout the bubble wand in there? All my tanks are about 2wpg lighting.

Thanks for the advice!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> I actually figured this out last night! (I'm so proud of myself for actually realizing something on my own!) I already have a bottle of Flourish so I can start right away.


Sam:

Humor: Are not reading labels and reviewing products on the manufacturer's web site not wonderful things?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Serious: If you observe the slightest hint of algae it will be coming from the Excel; suspending dosing with the Excel and double dosing with Flourish for a week or so will be appropriate.



Manthalynn said:


> Yes, they're about 2" now. I was a little worried about them growing out of this tank, but I wanted to give them a proper school and I was hoping that as they are bottom dwellers, they would have enough room. My goal is to create as many caves and hiding places as possible, because my swordtails even like their little caves. And with this many fish, they all need their own space.


Sam: You may not have read some of my dialogs with *Chris* in several of his threads but thinking in 3D (ie. the hole in the driftwood near middepth) is appropriate with respect to loaches and several Pleco's in the expansion of bottom space.

TR


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

Looks good! 

I think your grass may be mondo grass, it's actually not aquatic, so watch out for it rotting away. The bubble wand isn't needed, or helping. The surface agitation will release a lot more CO2 than it will put into the tank. If your 10 gallon already has a hang-on-back filter, then the bubble wands are just decoration.

Since your plants are still small, 2 wpg in a small tank might be a bit much. Make sure your dosage of excel/flourish isn't too much, as in you're adding more per day than the plants are using, or water changes are taking out. Just keep an eye out for algae.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Humor: Are not reading labels and reviewing products on the manufacturer's web site not wonderful things??


Yeah, I'm a dork. I read the labels of both a while back, but never put one and one together...I'm real good at memorizing and spitting info back out at you but I forget to go the next step and synthesize the info. Which, oddly, I'm good at when I remember to or bother to...



> If you observe the slightest hint of algae it will be coming from the Excel; suspending dosing with the Excel and double dosing with Flourish for a week or so will be appropriate.


I think I was overdosing a few weeks ago with the excel and saw a tiny amount of algae but it has since gone away. On my 10gal I have a slowly, but steadily, growing patch of very thin green algae. The older anubias leaves have spots of brown algae on them, too. I'll see what actually dosing with Flourish will do.




> You may not have read some of my dialogs with *Chris* in several of his threads but thinking in 3D (ie. the hole in the driftwood near middepth) is appropriate with respect to loaches and several Pleco's in the expansion of bottom space.


The link didn't work and I'm not quite sure what you mean. But I am very interested in reading about this. This is one aspect where I feel shaky but feel like it's something I actually should know right now. What driftwood are you talking about? I removed the driftwood and now just have a resin cave structure, two clay pots, and a fiber pot, so I'm not able to visualize what you're explaining.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

shev said:


> Looks good!


Thanks!



> I think your grass may be mondo grass, it's actually not aquatic, so watch out for it rotting away.


It does look like mondo grass as seen in this photo. When I purchased it, it was growing in a pot fully submerged so I didn't make the connection to mondo grass (which I knew wasn't aquatic, although sold by fish stores as such). But I'll keep an eye on it. Some tips of the leaves have already begun to yellow. I do like terrestrial ophiopogon so maybe I'll stick it in my yard.



> If your 10 gallon already has a hang-on-back filter, then the bubble wands are just decoration.


Thanks for confirming TOS's statement. It's nice to hear it from more than one source to know I'm on the right track.



> Since your plants are still small, 2 wpg in a small tank might be a bit much. Make sure your dosage of excel/flourish isn't too much, as in you're adding more per day than the plants are using, or water changes are taking out. Just keep an eye out for algae.


Is algae the key indicator that I'm wasting nutrients? My 29gal doesn't have any algal growth at all. I've been keeping an eye on the pennywort and gauging how much it's pearling. I was kind of experimenting to see if the Excel was really necessary. I have since come to the conclusion that I think it is, just not in the amounts I _though_ I was supposed to use (I read the label wrong...). Also, in this tank I only carry out W/C every two weeks.

Thanks again for the info and direction!


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> The link didn't work and I'm not quite sure what you mean. But I am very interested in reading about this. This is one aspect where I feel shaky but feel like it's something I actually should know right now. What driftwood are you talking about? I removed the driftwood and now just have a resin cave structure, two clay pots, and a fiber pot, so I'm not able to visualize what you're explaining.


Sam: unfortunately not all of your photographs were dated and as I am old and easily get lost anyway ...

The wood to which I was referring was in the one of the photographs and had a hole near middepth of the tank.

The search engine is somehow not functioning today as the link no long works for me either but neither does a direct advanced search with my name and keywords such as "3D", "think in", etc. and as such will start at the beginning as modified by your experience.

As you are aware many type of Pleco's and Loaches enjoy wood caves and holes including your "Zebra botia (per your post)" aka *Botia striata* (I know as I am growing five in my main tank: took a year to find some that I could view before purchasing [ie. a LFS]; finally found some at Amazonia in Austin and although they were very small little devils they had much more distinctive markings than the juvies depicted in the literature).

A concept which I have not found published in the literature is that they enjoy these caves and holes to middepth of the tank (a least one which is 30" deep).

They will enjoy at least three holes below or slightly above middepth in vertical driftwood.

You have done good with the resin cave, clay pots and fiber pot* with respect to their enjoyment but you have not "expanded your bottom area" in order for the five Botia striata to not be stunted in you 29G tank.

This would be a hypothetical as I believed the cave to be slate but fabricating two additional caves above the existing cave would implement the 3D effect.

*Please consider your enjoyment of your fishies while they are enjoying their caves and holes. I have my rocks stacked such that their holes face the front of the tank and the view of their holes are typically not obstructed by plants.

TR

BTW and not wanting to get into a long winded debate here but if you enjoy your air bubbles, as I do, leave the wand in the tank. It will not significantly adversely affect your plant's health and growth.

I have airbars along the sides of my tank and an air disk at the center of the back wall. I also aerate the submerged biological filtration media in the first and second chambers of my sump (please note that the second chamber has plants [well not right now: long sad story] and is kinda a FW refugium).

If you really get enthusiastic wrt a planted aquarium after six months or so experience you can order some *PMDD Pre-Mix and additional CSM+B Plantex *
BUT
surely at school you have access to MgSO4, KH2PO4, and Iron Chelate and hence all that you would need to order would be CSM+B.

(I do not "go with" the nitrates in the PMDD but most folks do due the 15 to 20ppm recommended by the literature. My experiments indicate that 5ppm nitrates is sufficient for plant health and growth and that at this concentration the plants are much better consumers of nutrients than is algae but I definitely reserve the right to change my mind concerning this issue).

If you get this far along and induce CO2 via a one liter or two liter DIY setup you should be easily able to maintain a 5ppm minimum CO2 concentration with air wand in place.


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## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

I noticed you said something about taking the driftwood out. Sorry if I missed or misread something, but the clown pleco will greatly appreciate the driftwood as it will make up most of his diet.


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

shev said:


> I noticed you said something about taking the driftwood out. Sorry if I missed or misread something, but the clown pleco will greatly appreciate the driftwood as it will make up most of his diet.


Don't worry about being confused. I confused people chronically...

I did remove the driftwood because they were too large. But I know that plecos need driftwood so I'm soaking and boiling three smaller pieces to include as soon as they stop leaching so rapidly.

I think I just need to remove the old photos so everyone is not as confused. Poor people! You all get gold stars for bearing with my non-linear mental track!


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> unfortunately not all of your photographs were dated and as I am old and easily get lost anyway ...


I've fixed it so all the photos are now only what it currently looks like...I had EVERYONE confused.



> The wood to which I was referring was in the one of the photographs and had a hole near middepth of the tank.


I get it now (especially since when I purchased the wood, I found a dead pleco in one of these vertical holes...it was gross). I'll work on creating more vertical caves. The three pieces of driftwood I have curing will go toward this purpose. Perhaps I can stack/tie them on top of the clay pots.



> The search engine is somehow not functioning today


I just always use Google Advanced. You can limit it to the domain that you want it to search. So if I'm looking for info on diseases on FF, I just copy and paste the address to the disease section of this forum. Works like a charm. 



> As you are aware many type of Pleco's and Loaches enjoy wood caves and holes


Do you think they would also enjoy slate caves? I like the looks of caves people have created with slate and really want to find some and experiment with cave building.Having a tough time finding slate at the moment, though.



> You have done good with the resin cave, clay pots and fiber pot* with respect to their enjoyment but you have not "expanded your bottom area" in order for the five Botia striata to not be stunted in you 29G tank.


How do I expand my bottom area?

*


> Please consider your enjoyment of your fishies while they are enjoying their caves and holes.


The fiber pot's hole is turned because I didn't like the look of the roots it's hiding...


> I have my rocks stacked such that their holes face the front of the tank and the view of their holes are typically not obstructed by plants.


For some reason, I thought they might like some closed in privacy so I kind of blocked the view of the entrances. Good to know they don't mind voyeurs!



> but if you enjoy your air bubbles, as I do, leave the wand in the tank.


I used to enjoy them when I was younger, but now I can't seem to incorporate it in a manner that I like so I was just keeping it for the health benefits. Thanks for another opinion, though.




> If you get this far along and induce CO2 via a one liter or two liter DIY setup you should be easily able to maintain a 5ppm minimum CO2 concentration with air wand in place.


I think this is definitely the direction I'm going. You mentioned somewhere about a jello DIY CO2 device. That's probably what I'll do once I get things figured out.

Oh, and I also wanted to mention that yeah, it was stupid dumping a fiber pot into the tank without first testing it for leaching anything toxic to fish. No fish died so aparently it's safe, although I have no idea what it's made of. The packaging didn't say but it looks like coir (coconut fiber) to me. It doesn't appear to discolor the water and it's not decomposing rapidly, so I'll let you know over the long haul how they last. I thought they would make good anchors for epiphytic plants like anubias, java fern, and moss, which is why I included them in the tank...just a warning to any newbies who are reading this and might be thinking it's safe to dump random things into a tank.


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## jones57742 (Sep 8, 2007)

Manthalynn said:


> I've fixed it so all the photos are now only what it currently looks like...I had EVERYONE confused.


Feel better now: Thanks.




Manthalynn said:


> I just always use Google Advanced. You can limit it to the domain that you want it to search. So if I'm looking for info on diseases on FF, I just copy and paste the address to the disease section of this forum. Works like a charm.


Would you mind starting a thread in chit/chat and explaining this in *extreme detail*, ie. walk through it like you were talking to an idiot.




Manthalynn said:


> Do you think they would also enjoy slate caves?


Absolutely and I thought that I had employed slate caves as a hypothetical in my previous post.

Via many posts which I have read I believe that bevelling the rough edges of the slate would be appropriate.




Manthalynn said:


> How do I expand my bottom area?


Sam: I have really been saying something wrong in this thread as the bottom area is expanded in 3D.

An example would be the area generated by stacking four slate caves vertically.

TR


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## Manthalynn (Aug 23, 2008)

jones57742 said:


> Would you mind starting a thread in chit/chat and explaining this in *extreme detail*, ie. walk through it like you were talking to an idiot.


Yes, I was thinking of doing this already but didn't know if it would be appreciated. I do this for work all the time, writing protocols, etc so I would love to. (I'm sick, I LOVE technical writing).



> I have really been saying something wrong in this thread as the bottom area is expanded in 3D. An example would be the area generated by stacking four slate caves vertically.


Oh, duh. That makes sense. Thanks!


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