# To Seal or not to Seal...



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm finally getting underway with my fishroom which will largely be a DIY adventure (I'm scared already lol). I've come across a question that I can't seem to find a great answer. Those of you that have fishrooms or have built fishrooms - what has your experience been regarding this?

My fishroom will be a room in the basement. It has one outside concrete wall that is totally underground. The problem is I'm not sure how to handle moisture in the room. We have already decided to get a heat air exchange unit. My husband said it was definitely worth the money to keep our house in good shape as we plan to be here a long time. On the concrete wall I've read varying information regarding sealing/waterproofing. I've read A) Yes you want to seal (with that paint on sealer) the inside of the wall to keep water from coming in. B) No, you don't want to seal the inside of wall because it will eventually somehow get some water in it and if that water cant escape, it will begin to cause deterioration within the wall.

Then when it comes to insulating I've read/seen - 1) People using fiberglass batts then covering with a vapor barrier. 2) People saying to use the insulating foam board as it can't wick up water, then using a vapor barrier (some said you dont need to because the foam board already has a plastic backing) and 3) I saw one fishroom where the person insulated from the top to about knee level with fiberglass batts then vapor barriered everything. I *assume* this is to keep the insulation from wicking up water if he ever had a major spill. But I'm also wondering .. how good of an insulation job is it if it leaves 1-2 feet open all the way around the room?

Does anyone have any first hand experience/knowledge with this?


----------



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Oh it may be worth noting (no clue) that the concrete wall... actually buts up to the ground that is covered by our garage so the ground on the other side of the wall is not really exposed. Sort of like a "T" where the bottom part is the wall, the left side is the garage floor and the right side is the house floor.


----------



## BV77 (Jan 22, 2005)

my fishroom is underground, as well, with 3 of the walls being exterior walls. I do , however have hot water, baseboard heat, that keeps the walls warm, and I do have a Sears dehumidifier down there....in 7 years have had no problems with moisture. the walls are sheetrocked as well,....so in your case, maybe sealing and insulating the wall , and a dehumidifier would suffice.
Good luck with it
Bob


----------



## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

Have you been to a hardware store that has a display with the waterproofing on a block used sometimes in foundations. There is one at the hardware store that I frequent and have never noticed any deterioration due to the moisture. 

That out of the way. Are you trying to keep moisture in or keep moisture out of your fish room? 

If you were going to keep it out I would just use a humidifier for that purpose. and use insulation as the basements can be rather chilly in the winter. Mine is like an icebox through the winter months.
I would use the foam board insulation with a vapor barrier rather than the batts esp. in the fishroom. If you were looking to keep sound out then I would use the batts. in the framed walls. I will try to post more later as I am at work.


----------



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks for the replies  Nice fish room Bob! Nice looking tanks too!

No I haven't seen that display.

I guess its a balancing act with the humidity in the fish room. We've not had any leaks or water problems in that room. My biggest concern is keeping the house from developing water damage/mold/mildew problems. So its not really so much keeping the water in or out as much as avoiding issues down the road from condensation/humidity/spills. I plan to epoxy the concrete floor with that Rustoleum Basement epoxy with the color chips. Any spills will be promptly toweled up (barring something stupid happening like me leaving the python on doh!). I'm hoping that will help to keep odors/water from permeating into the floor.

I have to ask yet another silly question... with the foam board insulation, do you put it up in sheets on the outside of the studs (then lose an inch of floor space) or do you cut it and put it between the studs? All of the framing on that outside wall already exists and was done with pressure treated wood.


----------



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Hi Christine, what area do you live in? What you need to do varies. As in, does it get cold in the winter? 

The very important thing to remember is thatyou do not want to create:
1. An air-gap in the wall.
2. lock a space in between two waterproof things such that moisture cannot get out.

So, you would not want to put foam over the 2x4s unless you fill the gaps between the studs. And you don't want to paint the wall and put up vapor barrier.

I have a picture around here somewhere of what we did... let me go look.


----------



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Found it.  

http://joneakes.com/cgi-bin/getdetailscals.cgi?id=1048


----------



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm in Georgia so while it doesn't get crazy cold.. it does still get cold  and of course hot also.

Thank you for the link! It looks like that is concrete, vapor barrier (plastic?), then the studs, foam insulation sheets between the studs, then plastic sealed on the outside of the studs (it mentions polyestrene, Im a bit confused because I thought the foam sheets are called this.. but in the photo it looks like an additional plastic sheet? If it is an additional sheet of plastic, would it act as a vapor barrier also?) then drywall?

The studs are already put up so I'm not sure how well we could do with getting plastic behind there properly (doubtful I'm guessing heh).

Also if it matters, there will be over 1,000 gallons of water in the room. All tanks will have fairly tight fitting hoods. I'm not really sure what final amount of water will be at this point.. I had it figured out but then I scored one of the MARS systems from a Walmart closing its fish dept, so I have to refigure the room.


----------



## Alin10123 (May 22, 2005)

BV77 said:


> my fishroom is underground, as well, with 3 of the walls being exterior walls. I do , however have hot water, baseboard heat, that keeps the walls warm, and I do have a Sears dehumidifier down there....in 7 years have had no problems with moisture. the walls are sheetrocked as well,....so in your case, maybe sealing and insulating the wall , and a dehumidifier would suffice.
> Good luck with it
> Bob


WOW!!!! 
Sorry for the hijack. I just had to compliment


----------



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

It's plastic (vapour barrier) against the concrete, then 2x4s with insulation (foam or fiber), then vapour barrier, then gyproc.

If you don't have plastic against the concrete, moisture will (slowly) wick through the concrete and get into your wall. 

But do note that the plastic gets put against the concrete to a level a bit above ground level, but not all the way. This way any moisture in the wall can get out, but moisture wont get into the way because the plastic reaches above the wet area.


----------



## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

another thing I just thought of....
Use greenboard ont he bottom of the studs and regular drywall on the top. Greenboard, if you don't already know is for use in wet locations. At that point I would use the fiber insulation and put a vapor barrier over that. the vapor barrier is not a total necessity though. I would then use a vinyl cove base or they have a hard extruded foam like moulding that would do well in that room if spills are caused.


----------



## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

I would still suggest the use of some type of fan exhaust system and/or a dehumidifier.


----------



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks guys, ya'll rock! Already planned on using greenboard at the bottom and hubby wants to do the heat air exchange unit. I guess we'll monitor the humidity from there and see if we also need to add a dehumidifier.


----------



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

I'd certainly agree that the heat air exchanger is important or at least a bathroom-style vent. Air exchangers can be tricky though, were you looking at a DIY, or professional installation?


----------



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

DIY for the single room unless it looks too complicated, then we would call in someone to do it. One of the interior walls backs up to a closet that has an outside wall in it that is partially above ground. I'm thinking that we could use that space. Honestly, I haven't looked at all the details of installing one yet. I heard someone their installation wasn't that difficult. My work pace seems to be extremely slow when I'm intimidated by what I'm doing so I'm stalling right now about that wall LOL.


----------



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Well, I certainly agree that an air exchanger can be DIY. You don't even typically need to do any wiring.

I guess it comes down to what all you want to do with it. Forgive me if you know all this, but, with an heat/air exchanger, you're going to want to suck air out of that room I would think (I'm supposing you'd want to treat it like a kitchen or bathroom with extra humidity). To get value out of the exchanging bit, you're going to want to blow air into a room somewhere else in your house some distance away from that room. Otherwise, any simple humidity-controlled fan exhaust would do the trick.

Then you have to ponder the efficiencies of your layout or you're throwing money away in power usage. Every bend in the line, some times of tubing, badly sealed joints, affect the efficiency. A typical house can lose more than 1/2 of the efficiency through badly sealed joints - and having moisture blown into air gaps in your wall is never a good thing. Every bend slows down the airflow. That coiled-white tubing people sometimes use for dryer can be used for air exchangers, but they're really inefficient. And can promote puddling of water in the tubes if not done well.

I'm sorry if this makes you concerned about the complexity. But certainly it can be done DIY, or professionally. If DIY, you just need to do more reading.

If you never expect it to be used in more than just the one room, I'd think a humidity-controlled exhaust vent might be cheaper and more efficient for you. But I'm not really an expert.  

And one final thought, my house has intakes and exhausts in all the rooms and was "professionally" done. Well, let's just say it wasn't so professional looking when they were done. I had to put quite a bit of work in myself to get a decent airflow going after they were done.


----------



## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

Depending on the CFM's (if they are rated that way, I am not all too familiar with the heat exchange units) you may or may not need a make up air system. Here in St. Louis we are required by code to have a make up air system on a kitchen exhaust unit (even in residential) if the CFM's are 60 or above. Sounds crazy but they make us do it. know you may want to put some type of vent source through the wall (on both sides) to allow outside air source if the door will not remain open all the time. By vent source I mean something like the cold air return registers that you see through out your home. This will help with circulation and removing the moisture out of that room adn to the exterior of your house. You could even put it in the bottom of the door. 

At this time we are probably just confusing you, if this is the case let us know.


----------



## Christine (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks guys... actually, no you aren't confusing me  I'm much less intimidated by the heat exchange unit than properly fixing the walls LOL. I worked in installation/repair for the phone company here for 5 years or so, so I have a better grasp on routing stuff through ceilings/walls.

And Newfiefishguy, thats part of the reason why we want to DIY. Yes money is a part (I'm honest) but it seems most times we have stuff "professionally" done, we find the work lacking.


----------



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Good for you. I'm the same way.


----------



## Sly Guy (Feb 15, 2005)

the best stuff for sealing concrete or brick walls inside and out for any reason whether to keep water in or out is surewall usually found only at brickyards in a 50# bag typically in white or gray, its powder and u mix it with water and trowl it on.


----------

