# Just starting out...



## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Hello everyone,

I'm a newbie starting up a tank for the first time. I started reading up on aquariums and their care and purchased a few supplies, but I'm still feeling a little shaky about it all.

Here is what I have so far:
A 20L tank with a full hood, silent air x2 air pump, elite hush 20 power filter, an elite tank 100 watt tank heater, dechlorinator, tubing, gravel, a water test kit that tests ph, nitrate, nitrite, hardness, alkalinity, ammonia...

I'm wondering if I made good choices on these purchases. I know there are so many types of filters and I do have a carbon stone plastic reservior along with a bubbler piece that I purchased with a 10 gallon aquarium kit long ago. I wasn't sure if these were good enough to use with the 20L.

We want to set up a warm fresh water tank. I know it's better for newbies to set up a cool water tank, but we didn't want to start out with that and convert later. 

I'm planning on putting water in today and getting everything set up and running. I know I need to purchase plants and hiding spots and I'm taking a trip to the store today. 

So I guess my question is "Am I on the right track?". Am I missing anything?

Thanks!


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Sounds like you are on the right track. The best thing you are doing is checking out this forum. 
Lesson #1 is DON'T listen to your pet shop. Ask questions here. Go ahead and get your plants and decorations. Set every thing up and get it running but DON'T buy any fish yet. If you are unfamiliar with "nitrogen cycle" or "new tank syndrome", research that first.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

As a matter of fact, Ronv has a good post about the Nitrogen Cycle and Fishless Cycling here on this site! check it out!


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks! I am not familiar with the nitrogen cycle or new tank fish syndrome yet. Cycling is something I need to read up on. I'll check out those posts. 

Don't worry, I'm not buying any fish until the tank is just right. I don't want problems if I can help it. I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes by since I know all about petshop advice...

Thanks for the quick replys and helpful advice!


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## Ownager2004 (Apr 4, 2005)

There are fish out there that can live through cycling a tank. Like zebra danios. 1 or 2 would do it.


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## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

I would get one or two hardy fish such as the zebra danios to help get your tank started on the nitrogen cycle, as I think Ownager was trying to convey. But that is it for a while. You need a source of ammonia to get the cycle started, you can also try stress zyme and/or bio-Spira to help you along.


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## happyfrosty10 (Apr 13, 2006)

I think its much better if you get 5 or 6 zebra danio's because zebra danio's are schooling fish they won't be comfortable with jst one or 2


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Crabbj, you are going to get conflicting advise, even on this forum. Study cycling and decide how you want to do it and we will help you from there.


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

Be sure to rinse out any gravel or anything for that matter that you are going to put in the tank. This will eliminate some problems with clouding of the tank due to "stuff" floating around in a new tank. It will also limit the amount of possible contaminants entering a new tank. Do not use soaps or other cleaners when setting up the tank either. This includes windex on the outside of the tank.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks for the input. I read cycling and thought about using zebra danios to help my tank cycle, but I'm really afraid something would go wrong and I'd' kill the fish. I have 2 children who would probably be quite upset if mom made a mistake and killed the fish right away. 

I read about bio spira. Sounds like great stuff and is really my choice for the way to go but I can't find it locally and only found one website to order from. I'm not real keen on ordering from sites I'm not familiar with and the sites I do use for pets don't carry it.

I decided to use ammonia to cycle the tank. Sounded quicker (and I already have it) than using fish flakes so I'll let you know how the progress goes. And at least if I mess something up this way I can always change the water and start over, without harming fish and upsettng kids in the process. 

I didn't realize how much there was to keeping fish. It's a bit overwhelming and quite expensive to get started. And then once everything is purchased it takes weeks to actually get the fish. I must admit it's a bit discouraging for me at this point. 

I added ammonia last night and checked the levels. The results are:

PH = 6.0
Ni = 0
Na = 25
H = 75
Alk = 30
Amm = 3.0
Temp = 58 F

Is there a reference to tell me what ranges these other numbers should fall in. Or what to do about them if they don't get into a good range once my tank is cycled?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Do you have a heater? Cycling bacteria will develop faster at a higher temp... 80F is not too high.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

LOL! Yes I do have a heater, but didn't realize it never turned on until I adjusted the knob this morning. It's almost 68 F already.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

happyfrosty10 said:


> I think its much better if you get 5 or 6 zebra danio's because zebra danio's are schooling fish they won't be comfortable with jst one or 2


I would just get 2 to start with. As this is good info. after you have your cycled, it is not good info. to start with.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

Crabbyj said:


> Thanks for the input. I read cycling and thought about using zebra danios to help my tank cycle, but I'm really afraid something would go wrong and I'd' kill the fish. I have 2 children who would probably be quite upset if mom made a mistake and killed the fish right away.
> 
> I read about bio spira. Sounds like great stuff and is really my choice for the way to go but I can't find it locally and only found one website to order from. I'm not real keen on ordering from sites I'm not familiar with and the sites I do use for pets don't carry it.
> 
> ...


With your PH being at 6.0 your bacteria will not grow. You must have a PH of 7.0 or better in order for the bacteria to grow faster. Bacteria will grow at a PH of 6.5 but it will take forever. I would check you water sorce and see what the PH range is. I have facts to back this up with if you need it.:wink:


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Oh, my water source is my tap well-water. I did use Tap Water Conditioner because we do have copper pipes and I know the conditioner will remove heavy metal toxins.

I just found the bio spira locally. Can I stop the ammonia cycling and put in the bio spira today? 

If I do, do I need to do anything differently to correct the ph levels? 

Also, I used the test strips and I might have mis-read the results. I'll do another check to see if it's the same.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I just retested the numbers.

PH 6.2
Ni 0
Na 20
H 25
Alk 0
Temp 76 F

From reading the test kit instructions I think I need a PH increaser which will increase both Alk and PH.

What is the correct hardness range? Is 25 or very soft something that needs to be corrected with a hardness adjuster?

Do I need to get these other numbers in range before adding bio-spira?

Thanks in advance for any replies. I know I have tons of questions, but I really want to start off right!


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## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

Is the ammonia you are using pure ammonia? 
You can start using the Bio-Spira right away!
Good Luck!


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

The ammonia is very old, but it is Acme brand Clear Ammonia. In the ingredients list is says: Ammonium Hydroxide solution, chelating agent as a rinsing aid. Contains no phosphorus. 

I read somewhere that when it says "clear" on the bottle it means 'pure'. But it does list a chelating agent? Would that be a problem?


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## CyberSpike (Mar 25, 2006)

Crabbyj said:


> The ammonia is very old, but it is Acme brand Clear Ammonia. In the ingredients list is says: Ammonium Hydroxide solution, chelating agent as a rinsing aid. Contains no phosphorus.


Ammonia tends to lose its effectiveness as it gets older. Also, since Ammonium Hydroxide is a base, you may want to keep a close eye on your pH.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Bio-spira is in. For anyone who has used it, do I test every day now until the proper levels are reached? 

The petstore people and the directions on the package said add fish with the bio-spira. My understanding is that I don't need to add fish until the tank has cycled, is this correct?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Please retest your KH ( alkalinity ). If it really is 0. You need to add some baking soda to get it up to at least 5-6. KH is is a measure of buffering capacity. If you have none, your PH will swing wildly. The nitrogen cycle is acid producing and with no KH your PH will drop like a rock, kill the bacteria and your tank will never cycle.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thank you ronv. I just retested everything. 

ph is 6.8
nitrites = 0
nitrates = 20
H = 25
Alk = 40
Ammonia = almost 3.0
tem = 80

I have the strip test kits and I'm not sure what happened, maybe I misread it or waited too long. The strips are sometimes hard to read and only give solid numbers so it's hard to tell if your range falls between the color chart. It appears to be ok now. 

But what about the question about the bio-spira? Am I understanding that I retest daily until the nitrates are up and the nitrites and ammonia are 0. Also once the nitrates are up will I need to do a partial water change? What level should the nitrates be?


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> I retest daily until the nitrates are up and the nitrites and ammonia are 0


 Exactly right. Then change water and add fish. 



> What level should the nitrates be


 40 is safe, but 20 is a better target. (ie, if its 80, then change 75% of the water)


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thank you emc7. I will do that.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I've never used bio-spira but, my understanding is that you add fish immediately with bio-spira. The bacteria in bio-spira must have a source of food ( ammonia ) or they die.
Read the directions on the bio-spira.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I tested again this morning. 

Ammonia 5.0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20
Hardness 25
Alkalinity 40
Temp 78
PH 6.8

My tank didn't appear to cycle with the bio spira. There was ammonia in the tank before I added it so I would think it still should have worked. The test results however never showed that the ammonia ever dropped to 0. I tested just after adding the bio-spira and again 12 hours later. 

How should I proceed from here?


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Accidental double post - sorry.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

As I said, I've not used bio-spira so someone with more knowledge than I might could help. Reports have been mostly good but not always. For one thing, if it ever thaws, it's no good. 
My advise would be a normal fishless cycle but it takes 4 weeks or more usually. Others here will advise other ways.
I think you know the basics of cycling. Choose one of the methods of cycling and ask a devotee of that method to step you through it. If you choose fishless cycling, I will be glad to help, if you would like. What I don't want to do is let this thread degenerate into an argument over which method is best, as so often happens. 
Whatever you choose, good luck. This is a great hobby, AFTER the first month or so.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I definately want to do fishless cycling and already have ammonia. I'm going to proceed in that direction so I'll retest and post the numbers tomorrow to see where my tank stands. The previous post shows where they are today. I'd be thrilled if you can help me along the way as I need all the help I can get right now.

I'm in information overload at the moment. It's been much more research and time than I originally anticipated, however I'm determined to work out my problems and let the tank properly cycle before adding fish. I thought the bio-spira would give me instant results, but apparently for whatever reason that did not work for me as I misunderstood how to use it properly. I don't want to try it again because I'm afraid that adding fish along with it will not work and I'll have major problems and sick fish. I'm not willing to take that risk.

I'll just use this time to research more about the fish that I can put in my tank.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

OK... Your tank is full of dechlorinated water and the filter is running, right. To start with, what all have you put in the tank. What brand of water treatment? I know about the bio-spira. What else?


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I used super strength "Tap Water Conditioner" made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. and the "Acme Brand Clear Ammonia" with chelating agents. Both were added on the 14th with no additional ammonia added.

The filter and air pump with stone are both operating.

Levels are currently:

Ammonia 5.0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20
Hardness 25
Alkalinity 40
Temp 78
PH 6.8

And tank is a bit cloudy. I also put in a couple fish flakes last night thinking I would feed the bio-spira since I added no fish. Maybe causing the cloudiness?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

You need to get ammonia down to 3.0. Five is recommended in many places, but it has been found that high levels of ammonia are toxic even to the bacteria that feed off it. Changing water will reduce the ammonia concentration.
Next... add baking soda to get your Ph up to 7.5-7.8 or so. There is no magic number here. Bacteria just does better at a higher PH.
Last step.... Raise aquarium temperature. 80F is good. Here again nothing magic about the number. 

Thats it.. Now just be patient. You may not need to do anything else for a week or more. Top off the water as it evaporates using your conditioner and don't add anything else. 

If you know someone that has an established, healthy aquarium, let me know. We can then talk about how that could help you. 

I don't like the paper test strips. I use the liquid. Your test readings seem to fluctuate a bit. You might want to consider the liquid kits. I think they are better. This is not absolutely essential though.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Looking back at your test results, I notice that you have a nitrate reading. Nitrate is the end result of the cycle process. I wonder if the biospira is working. Please test your tap water. See if it contains any nitrates ( very possible ).


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

How much water do I change out (20gallon tank) and how much baking soda to add?

I don't know anyone who has an established tank that I can think of - I'll check around.

Just tested water straight from tap.

It does show a nitrate level of about 20.

I'm not liking these test strips either. They have very large color changes so if your color falls somewhere in the middle its very hard to judge what the number is. The jumps in colors also seem quite large and I would assume a large margin of error with them. 

I've seen master test kits made by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. Would that be the liquid type?


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Just retested the water to see what's happening and got:

PH 6.8
Nitrites .5
Nitrates 20
H 25
Alk 20
Ammonia = .3

I'm thinking it's cycling and I should not change water. The ammonia is way down and I'm showing traces of nitrites now.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

*************


Crabbyj said:


> How much water do I change out (20gallon tank) and how much baking soda to add?
> 
> ***** Change 30-40% and test again. Just keep doing it untill you get down to 3. Same with baking soda. Just keep adding and retesting.
> 
> ...


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

I just saw your latest post. Maybe the biospira spira IS working. Your right... don't change water yet. Wait a while and test again.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I hope it is cycling. That would be great.

I added 1 teaspoon of baking soda, boosted the temp up a little, and added 5 drops of ammonia because I was afraid it would go to zero and not provide food if the bio spira did survive or if the tank was starting to cycle.

Took readings a few hours later and got:

PH = 7.8
Nitrites = .2
Nitrates = 20
Hardness = 25
Alk = 120
Ammonia 2.0
Temp = 80

I'm pleased with the boost in ph and alkalinity.


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## seven11junkey (Apr 16, 2006)

it sounds like you are on the right track be careful when picking out fish. since this is your first tank a hardy fish would be best like the others suggested. you will soon find that this hobby will be well worth the while after you have fish also try to find fish that are interactive they will probly make tank very atracing to your kids.good luck


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I hope so seven. I think my kids will love it, but they are driving me nuts while waiting. 

I do plan on getting some hardy fish. I like the zebra danios and want some cherry barbs, maybe an oto catfish, a couple dwarf gouramis. I'm definatly up for easy keepers at the start. Still researching types and compatibility and their needs. I want all small fish (under 3 inches) since I only have a 20 gallon. 

It's easy to see why people get those large tanks. So much room and fish choices. I envy those who have them. I never thought there was this much involved in keeping fish, but hey I've had the same hermit crabs for several years and learned about those on forums. They have very specific needs too and live a very long time if you care for them properly. 

Live plants is something I'm starting to consider for the future. But for now it's just plain plastic greenery.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Crabby, just keep adding ammonia ( you were right to do that ). Try to keep the level as close to 3 as possible. Eventually ammonia will go to zero and you will have to add ammonia every day. At that point nitrite will go up. You are getting some nitrite now. That is a good sign. The higher PH and temp. will speed it up. You're doing great!


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks for the encouragement.  

I do have to add ammonia daily and it seems to drop down pretty quickly.
I seem to be adding more than in the beginning to get the ammonia reading up to 3.

I'm not sure if I'm really showing nitrites yet, as I tested my tap and they look the same. The test strip shows a solid white (like paper) square to compare with, but when it's wet with water (either from the tap or aquarium)it's not white, almost a grey-white. Theres definatly no pink in the reading. And the tank is still a little cloudy.

My numbers today are:
PH 7.8
Ni .5 
Na 20
H 25
Alk 120
Ammonia .25
Temp 80

I added 12 drops of ammonia after these readings. Might be going for the other test kit today or tomorrow.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Yeah, I don't like those paper strips. Sounds good. Just keep doing what you are doing.


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2006)

It seems like everyone else is giving you good advice already, but I wanted to suggest a few things.

I would get the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Master test kit. That is what I have and it is great. The liquid tests are much better than the strips, and more accurate. The AP master kit isn't that expensive, so its a good deal IMO.

Another thing, if you are adding ammonia everyday (which you should be if you are still cycling), make sure you add the same amount.

I know you upped the pH for cycling. I would keep it around 7 when you add fish, if possible. A little lower is alright though. Just make sure you keep it the same. Add however much baking soda you need to, to get it where you want it. pH swings don't go well with fish.

I think its strange that you registered nitrAte before nitrIte. I wasn't aware that tap-water could have nitrAte in it....but I guess it does. It looks like you are close to the end of the cycle. Good luck!

For stocking, I suggest:
6-8 Lemon tetras (very pretty and hardy)
3 cherry barbs (2f/1m)
1 Dwarf Gourami (2 may be aggressive towards each other)
8 corydoras habrosus or corydoras pymaeus
3 ottos (if you develop algae)

After your tank is cycled you could add about 4 lemon tetras. Then I would only add about 4 or 5 fish every week or every other week, to prevent a mini-cycle.

Add the ottos last, if you develop algae. They can be sensitive, but will do fine if water quality is good and they have algae (soft green and brown diatom) to eat.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks for the advice.

I'm going tomorrow for the AP test kit. I think accuracy is important when the numbers have to be monitored so closely. I feel like its a guessing game with these strips. 

I thought I'm supposed to keep the ammonia number to 3. If I add the same amount of ammonia as I did the first time around to get it to 3 it would only be .25. Actually I can't get it to go to 3 any longer even by adding double which I already did before reading this post. It's always .25 no matter what. 

Does that mean that phase of cycling is done and I won't be able to get it back to 3? Maybe it's going to 0?

I'll be sure to keep the ph stable. It does seem like that's more important once the fish are in the tank. I was under the understanding that we only raised it for the cycling process and once that's done it's more important to keep it stable.

Thanks for the fish suggestions. I like the lemon tetras, but there are so many varieties of the tetras it's hard to choose. I didn't know Gouramis can be aggresive toward each other and 1 is the best way to go. I do like the cherry barbs and will probably get some of those. I'm not familiar with the corydoras yet, I'll have to look those up.
I also wanted an otto, but didn't realize 3 are better than 1. I know that will be something I'd add later on because they need algae. I also like the salt and pepper otto, and the upside down catfish. 

I agree about adding the fish slowly. I'm really afraid to put anything in even after my tank cycles because of the possibility that something will go wrong. I'm surprised how tedious this whole process is and easily things can get messed up.

Yes, my tap does have nitrates. I wonder if that's bad for us to drink? We have well water at our house and the well is about 10 years old when we built our house. Maybe it's time to get the water retested. I was using a brita filter, but it no longer works.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

* "Actually I can't get it to go to 3 any longer even by adding double which I already did before reading this post"*
That's good. That's how it is supposed to be. You keep adding the same amount every day until you get 0. You have to keep feeding the bacteria until you add fish. When the ammonia and nitrites are 0 then you are done cycling and can add fish. Keep adding the same amount of ammonia until ammonia and nitrites are 0.

* "Does that mean that phase of cycling is done and I won't be able to get it back to 3"*
Right...that phase is done when you start getting 0 for ammonia.

Ottos are social fish so they like company. I would get 3 or 4 later on when you have algae.

You could have the upside down cats instead of the cories. I would only have one schooling fish though, because upside down cats get about 4 inches and i think they swim around the tank instead of staying on the bottom like cories. They are nocturnal, so they would need caves and shade in the daytime. I have never kept them, but they seem like cool fish. They would probably enjoy a planted tank.

*"I'm really afraid to put anything in even after my tank cycles because of the possibility that something will go wrong"*
Don't be afraid. Its all about adding the fish at the right time. After ammonia and nitrites are 0 and you are finished cycling, you should be able to add just about any type of fish. Even sensitive ones, as long as you keep the pH stable. I would add tetras or harlies first, depending on what type you decide on. Add a few fish at a time once a week and you shouldn't have any problems.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks Kristin.

I found out some more information on the BIO-Spira if anyone is interested. There is information about it on the Marineland website. The directions and some interesting information.

I've read that the Bio-Spira is the reason my ammonia and nitrites numbers are staying low. The BS is supposed to do that. The next day after adding it they dropped right down. They might stay at very low (safe) for a couple days then drop to 0. I also found out that people do use the BS for fishless cycling, they just add ammonia daily to feed it. 

I knew I read that some place and searched around until I found several instances where people have used it prior to adding any fish. The deal is you are apparently able to add the fish immediately because the nitrites and ammonia will remain at low levels such as they are in my tank. I prefer to wait until they are 0 and be on the safe side. 

Since I added it I doubt I'll see a nitrite spike because the nitrifying bacteria are already in the tank. I'm pretty sure nitrites will just go from low to 0.

The BS is interesting stuff, but I would only use it for fishless cycling since there are still traces of ammonia and nitrites in the water after adding it. 

My tank cloudiness is clearing up.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

***********


Crabbyj said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Yay, I think I'm learning some things, lol!

Hey ronv, I understand what your saying about adding all the fish at once. I think that's a wonderful idea for an experienced fish person. But I am not and if something goes wrong my chances of correcting it quickly are not good. I'll have no idea what to do, come to the forums for advice and who knows how long it will take before I get the correct advice and supplies for correcting the problem. I don't mean that in a bad way, just that by the time I write it in the forums and get an answer and possibly have to go buy something at the fish store to correct it, it could be a couple of days and risk a whole tank of fish. But if I start out with a few fish at a time I think I'll have a better chance getting things right at a slower pace and if I have a serious problems at least less fish will be at risk. I could be wrong, and if you really think I am I'd love to hear your opinion. 

By the way, if there are a few extra supplies I should keep on hand for fish keeping in emergency situations I'd be happy to purchase them. The fish store is about 1/2 hour away and I have a very busy schedule and can't always run there immediately. I'm planning on going there for the new test kit, but haven't had the opportunity yet.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2006)

Ronv, the AP master kit does have a nitrate test. It also has nitrite, ammonia, regular pH, and high pH. It is missing KH and GH tests.

"I would recommend letting tap water PH be what you use"
Yeah, I second that....unless its unusually low. You will have to check it again when you get the new kit.

"One of the big advantages of fishless cycling is that you can add all your fish immediately"
Not really. You can add a good number of fish, but you dont want to overload the bacteria with ammonia so that they can't eat it all. Then you will have too much ammonia. It probably won't be enough to affect your fish but, you want to be cautious. You could probably add about 6 or so fish at a time. A problem would occur if you only added 1 or 2 fish. Or if you put 20 fish in your tank the day after the cycle is finished. Adding 6 at a time, along with the food they eat, will keep the bacteria fed.

I never truly cycled any of my tanks. I added fish slowly, about 3 or 4 a week, so that not enough ammonia would build up to hurt the fish, but it would still cycle the tank. I also had my tanks planted when I "cycled" them, so by doing it this way I never registered ammonia over 1ppm. And I didn't have ammonia for very long. So, I've never had to deal with the rise and fall of the ammonia and nitrite...mine was fast.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

***********


JustOneMore20 said:


> Ronv, the AP master kit does have a nitrate test. It also has nitrite, ammonia, regular pH, and high pH. It is missing KH and GH tests.
> ****OK, thanks for that. I don't have one. I just remembered that it didn't have something.
> 
> "I would recommend letting tap water PH be what you use"
> ...


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Crabby, if you don't want to completely stock your tank immediately, I certainly understand. At this point you know enough about what is going on to make quality decisions. If you initially stock with only a few, you will have a bacteria die off but mini cycles will be short if you just continue adding only one or two fish at a time.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

ron v said:


> **** I disagree on this one. One of the big advantages of fishless cycling is that you can add all your fish immediately. Keep in mind... the amount of bacteria is determined by the amount of food (ammonia). By adding all the ammonia every day you have cultured a very healthy population of bacteria. If you stop adding ammonia and replace that with waste from only a couple of small fish, most of the bacteria that you have worked so hard for, will die!!! Then when you add more fish, a mini-cycle will occur.
> 
> ****** I have to disagree here. You will never put enough fish in to produce 3ppm of ammonia. The 20 fish you mentioned would not come close to producing more waste than your bacteria can handle. You WILL have a die off of bacteria. The only question is, will you allow it to die off down to two fish, or die off down to 20 fish.


Hmmm...now that's something I have to think about. I see your point. It's like getting it totally ready then not using all the bacteria you spent so much time creating. And then to put new fish through mini cycles when it's not necessary.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I tested again today:

PH 7.8
Ni .5
Na = 20
H 75
Alk 120
Ammonia .5
Temp 80

My nitrites and ammonia did drop down to .25 for a couple days, but are back up to .5. Not a big difference, but a slight change.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

There will be ups and downs. You're doing fine. Keep adding ammonia.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

This morning my test showed extreme changes:

I only added 10 drops of ammonia yesterday, nothing else.

PH 8.4
Nitrites .5
Nitrates 25
Hardness 25
Alkalinity 300
Ammonia 3
Temp 82

This isn't normal, is it? I'm wondering if I should ditch this idea and quit. Or empty the tank and start from square one.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Don't empty the tank. You are getting some nitrites and nitrates so you are making progress. Sometimes the biospira thing doesn't progress the same as a normal fishless cycle so I'm not sure what's going on. The confusing thing is the PH and KH. Let's wait a day and see what happens tomorrow. Be patient.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Got the new Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit today. Tested everything and the numbers are:

PH 7.8
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrites .5
Nitrates 10
GH 17.9
KH 107.4

I really don't know what the Gh and Kh stand for yet or what they should be. How do they look? I'll check out the water chemistry page and reread the instruction paper that came with the kit to try and understand what they mean. 

Apparently I'm not at the end of the cycle since there are still nitrites and ammonia. 

But I have a few questions for when it does finally cycle.

1) How am I going to get the PH back to where it is coming out of tap? (I'll retest that will the new kit to see what it really is)

2) I have some water loss right now, should I fill it back up?

3) When doing water changes, am I supposed to add warm dechlorinated tap water so I don't cool the tank off?


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2006)

sorry double post....read the one below.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2006)

> 1) How am I going to get the PH back to where it is coming out of tap? (I'll retest that will the new kit to see what it really is)
> 
> 2) I have some water loss right now, should I fill it back up?
> 
> 3) When doing water changes, am I supposed to add warm dechlorinated tap water so I don't cool the tank off?


1. I would stop adding the baking soda (or whatever you are adding to up the pH) and do a few water changes until you get it back to what the tap water is.
2. You can top off the water that is lost.
3. KH is carbonate hardness or alkalinity. GH is general hardness. The KH should be 3 degrees or higher (about 50ppm or higher). Under 50ppm and the pH is unstable. The GH tells you if you have hard water (above 200ppm) or soft water (50 to 100 ppm).

Your GH means you have extremely soft water. Your KH is just right for tropical fish. I am guessing that the KH is higher than normal since you are adding baking soda. What is the KH of your tap water? Check that when you recheck the pH.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks so much!

Tomorrow I'm going to test all my tap water parameters with the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. Such a better test kit than the strips. The colors are very easily read and it's easy to tell when they match. And it does contain nitrite, nitrate, ammonia and ph. I did have to buy the GH and KH test separately though. 

I did test the aquarium levels today (nitrite, nitrate and ammonia) and they were exactly the same as yesterday so I still didn't add any more ammonia. Not sure if I should risk adding more at the 2ppm level.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

***********


JustOneMore20 said:


> 1. I would stop adding the baking soda (or whatever you are adding to up the pH) and do a few water changes until you get it back to what the tap water is.
> 
> ******** Don't do that! You need to keep adding baking soda to keep your KH and PH up. You can return to normal tap water parameters with water change after the cycle is complete.
> 
> ...


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

***********


Crabbyj said:


> Thanks so much!
> 
> Tomorrow I'm going to test all my tap water parameters with the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. Such a better test kit than the strips. The colors are very easily read and it's easy to tell when they match. And it does contain nitrite, nitrate, ammonia and ph. I did have to buy the GH and KH test separately though.
> 
> I did test the aquarium levels today (nitrite, nitrate and ammonia) and they were exactly the same as yesterday so I still didn't add any more ammonia. Not sure if I should risk adding more at the 2ppm level.


*******You can keep adding ammonia as long as it doesn't get above 3ppm. Actually, the more ( Ammonia = food ) you add the better. As long as it doesn't go over 3.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

OK, heres the plan. I'll test my tap water with the new test kit, fill up the 1 inch water evaporation with dechlorinated and possibly with baking soda depending on results of tap test(I realize this is just for cycling time), add a couple drops of ammonia and retest aquarium water later tonight.

Hope this plan is good for now!


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2006)

> to keep adding baking soda to keep your KH and PH up. You can return to normal tap water parameters with water change after the cycle is complete


I meant after the cycle is complete. Sorry, I wasn't clear. 

I think you should keep adding the same amount of ammonia, unless it is going over 3ppm. Near the end of the cycle you should be adding the same amount of ammonia, but seeing the readings on the test getting lower and lower until its 0. (right ronv?) The bacteria should be multiplying and eating the ammonia until there is enough of the bacteria to eat all the ammonia. I hope that makes sense and is somewhat right.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I kind of figured you meant when the cycle was over. It made sense to me because I've heard so much about keeping the ph consistent once the fish are in. 

I did everything, but retest the aquarium levels. I'll do that now and post tap levels and tank levels so I can get a handle on what I have to do when the cycle is complete. :smile:


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Ok with the new Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test my tap water is:

PH 6.0
KH 17.9
GH 125.3
Nitrates 5
Nitrites 0


My aquarium water is: (tested using artificial lights vs. daylight and it was harder to read this way)

All is the same except ammonia which I raised back up to 3ppm.

PH 7.8 to 8.2 (very hard to tell)
Ammonia 3.0
Nitrites .50
Nitrates 10


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

You are doing fine!!!!

A tip for reading test results. Try looking down into the test tube from the top instead of through it from the side. You are looking through more water so the color will show up a little better.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

I love the encouragment, but I think this tank will never cycle.  
It really seems stuck in this mode. It's been 2 weeks and the ammonia was dropping way down in 12 hours after I added the bio-spira. Then I must have killed it with an overload of ammonia trying to get it back up to 3ppm. 

Anything else I can do in this situation???

Numbers yesterday were exactly the same as previous. 

Today:

Ammonia 2 
PH 7.8
Nitrites .50
Nitrates 15 (only real change - up 5ppm)

Added 4 drops of ammonia.

It's pretty bad when I go to the lfs and the fish lady sees me walking down the hall and says "Is your tank ready yet?". She's caught me staring at the fish with the kids and knows they are ready to get some fishees. Trying to keep positive... :fish:


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Somethings happening - is this good?

Today:

Ammonia 2.0
Nitrites 2
Nitrates 20


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Checking back, I see that you started your cycle on 4-13, so you have been underway for 16 days. It normally takes 4-6 weeks. Initially I thought the bio-spira was helping you and would make it go quicker. Now I'm not so sure. I have never used bio-spira, but it seems like people have mixed results. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 

You didn't kill the bacteria with ammonia. Your increase in nitrites is a good sign. Just be patient. Sometimes the nitrite to nitrate bacteria take longer to cultivate than ammonia to nitrite.


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

Today 4/30 my tests are showing:

Ammonia 1.0
Nitrites between .50 - 1
Nitrates 20

Things are looking up. This is 12 hours after adding 4 drops of ammonia!


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## Crabbyj (Apr 13, 2006)

A couple days after my last post, things went downhill again. I'm still waiting for a cycle. I thought I was close but for the last 7 days my numbers have remained exactly the same:

Nitrites .5
Ammonia 2

And I've only added 4 drops of ammonia twice during that time. 

I did go out and buy 3 anacharis plants, 1 hornwart, and 2 amazon swords over the past couple days. I like the tank better with the real plants instead of fake ones. Planted one a couple of days ago and just got the rest in now.


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## ultasol (Mar 12, 2006)

What is your lighting like? what is your substrate like? You may need to address some of these concerns in order to have your plants live and contribute to the environment in your tank.


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