# More patience required?



## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Hi Folks,

First, I'm very newbie at this hobby. I've been reading quite a lot but am quite confused by it all. About the only thing I'm pretty concrete on now is the cycling process (but not necessarily the right way to go about it  ). And, no, I hadn't heard of fishless cycling until after starting.

Before reading through some other threads this evening, I was going to ask in this thread only what bottom-type feeder I should add to my tank now. But, I'm getting the feeling I should wait a while longer before adding any more fish. So I've changed my question.

*The question now is:* with my tank starting to get noticeably dirty on the bottom due to food, plant debris, etc should I get some bottom feeders soonest or wait for my cycling to finish? I'm wondering if cycling might go better with less debris?

*The background:* I have a new 32g tank with 3 unknown live plants and about 22 neon tetras. I asked for 10 at the LFS but they gave me more and I didn't realize how much more until we got them into the tank (I did understand I shouldn't go with 32 inches of fish until after cycling).

I'm now at 8 days with fish. Unfortunately, I only picked up a testing kit yesterday because I didn't realize the importance so I don't really know how high the ammonia got. My readings yesterday were (before water change):
ammonia: 0.6mg/L
nitrites: 0.1 
Ph: 7.6
General Hardness: 40
Carbonate Hardness: 60.

(I don't really understand the last two things yet)

Thanks in advance!


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2006)

I would wait until you are finished cycling (ammonia, nitrItes are 0 and nitrates appear) before adding anymore fish.

When you do finish cycling, cories are great bottom feeders. They are very cute also. They will only eat the food on the bottom though, so you'll still have to gravel vac the tank. 

Don't gravel vac the tank until you are done cycling though...if the nitrites get around 2ppm, do a water change and try to keep them below 1ppm for the fish. Neons aren't the hardiest tetras, so I'm surprised you've only lost 1 (read your other post).


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks much! Unfortunately, we did gravel vac. I only read here this evening that was a bad idea during cycling <sigh>. However, being our first time, I think we did a pretty inept job so hopefully it won't impact too much. 

And, yes, I now know that neons are not very hardy. I think I read that the day after I bought them. The original site I used for a profile simply rated them easy to take care of and I've since seen how badly the line has gotten. I remember them as a kid 20 years ago.

Any particular Cory your favourite? I see the sodalis and trilineatus in your sig. I'll do some research to see which might fit me best.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2006)

Panda cories are my favorite...they are just too cute. I like albinos also. The sodalis and trilineatus (also known as 3-line, false juliis) are both spotted cories. The trilineatus are smaller (~2in max) and have a black blotch on their top fin (dorsal?).

My sodalis cories are just lazy bums....laying around all day. 

Just keep an eye on the water parameters to make sure ammonia and nitrIte don't get too high...i think your ammonia may have already spiked though, since you are getting nitrItes. Test regularly.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2006)

You know what? I really like people like you, you know where you actually wanna learn about your fish and how to cycle the tank and everything and don't have a rude attitude because you was told something you didn't want to hear. 

Welcome to the forums and the great world of fish!


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

The gravel vac didn't hurt anything. It may have prolonged your cycle a few days but it also removed organics that cause NH3/No2 spikes. No worries there......
I wouldn't add anymore fish for at least 2 weeks though. Keep removing uneaten food and debris from the tank bottom. Just dont dig into the substrate. Can you post pics of your plants? It will be helpful in identifying them. Plants not suitable for your tank cause more harm than good.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

JustOneMore20: Thanks. There seems to be so many to choose from. Nice to have a suggestion from someone with experience with them. I'm seeing some comments about being careful with the gravel at the bottom which makes sense. I've got Geosystem white river gravel (http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=109&PROD_ID=01124020010001). Would you think that's acceptable? Doesn't seem very sharp.

My ammonia and nitrites are almost zero now. But it turns out my kit doesn't have a nitrate test so I'm off to get one. But cycling doesn't make sense in 9 days, does it? 

Durbkat: Thanks!  This is a family thing and my 7yr old is loving it. 

Simpte: I'll do that. But have to figure out how first.  I've been realizing how little the LFS really helped with the start up so I might indeed have a problem there as well. They're starting to look worse than when I got them too. Any thoughts on fertilizer? My plant research is just starting...


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Flourish and Flourish should be all you need in the beginning, if even that. Depending on the plants, you may not be able to save them anyway. They may require more lighting than is over the tank. I wouldn't be worth upgrading your light for a few plants. NO3 (nitrate) is one test I rarely test for. Waterchanges will take care of it in non planted tanks. Just keep an eye on ammonia and nitrite.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2006)

Your gravel doesn't look very sharp so it should get great for cories. 

You can post pictures of your plants directly by attaching them or you can put them in a free picture hosting site, like Photobucket and then post the IMG tag (you'll see what I'm talking about it you do it this way). You will probably have to resize them either way. I resize my photobucket pictures so they won't be huge when I post them.

Like Simpte said, I'd pick up some Flourish and Flourish Excel for your plants. If you are interested in getting more, if these don't make it, java fern, anubias, and cryptocorynes are good plants for your lighting. Java ferns and anubias shouldn't be planted in the gravel. You can either tie them to a rock or piece of wood with some thread or fishing line or you can just sit them on top of the gravel if they will stay. Later on if you decide to get more into plants, you may have to upgrade your lighting, but for now its fine.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

OK, I hope I've figured out how to attach images (thanks JustOneMore20).

Here's plant #1. After a trip back to the LFS, I think it's Hygrophilia Difformis. I have one in the tank.










Plant #2, I think is Cryptocoryne x willisii. I have two. 










And here's the tank with the stand I built after not finding a stand in town for a 32g. The other plants are fake that came with the kit.










Simpte, you're thinking I don't have enough light? I have a dual light canopy with one Sun-glo and one Aqua-glo 20w flourescent bulb in it. Was I misled by the LFS that would be more than enough for plants?

Thanks again!


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## judya (Jan 23, 2005)

For spot cleaning you can use a (new) turkey baster. Feed a little less so food doesn't fall to the bottom. No, cycling generally takes a little longer. Just keep an eye on the numbers, don't change or clean your filter pad or media, change some water if you need to. I might recommend a green or darker backing (maybe one with a plant pattern) (goes on the outside), and possibly the addition of some neutral or darker colored gravel - helps show off the neons. Also you can add more plants - java moss, java fern, water sprite for a floating plant, are all easy care. Just try not to bring in any duckweed with the plants! (duckweed - little floating plants that get into everything and grow like weeds!)

That's a great colony of neons! And yes, I also would recommend some corydoras later. Just pick the type whose color patterns appeal to you. Skip the socalled giant cories though (brochis splendens) they are a bit bigger than you need with that much fish load.

My last, and always, recommendation, get a sponge filter in addition to the hang-on filter. It is driven by an air pump and is a great way to help cycle a tank and build up good bacteria. I have them as my only filter on several tanks, and use them even if I have other filters. And with a valve you can run another airline to a bubble wand, or fish toy like a bubbling clamshell, treasure chest, or diver, that will amuse your kid.

Don't worry about the hardness numbers, and don't try to fiddle with the pH to change it. Just do regular partial water changes (10-20% a week) with dechlorinated water that's as warm as the tank water.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks Judya, the turkey baster is a great idea. So is the backing. We've been arguing over the one we like the most.  

I'll look into the sponge filter. Although, I'm not sure what you're referring to right now. But I do already have an air pump. We hooked up a bubble wand and stone up earlier today with low pressure. I'd forgotten about those fish toys. You're right, it would be amusing.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Good to see you back Judya  I think your lighting is a bit low (40 watts of N.O. over a 32 gallon tank). I think you would want 60 watts of N.O. of 55/65 watts of pc for a bit more luster and intensity. 56 watts of T5 would work as well. YOu have enough for the crypt in the tank but the wisteria (hygro) in your tank will want more. It will most likely grow well in the beginning and then start dieing off as the tops overshadow the rest of the plant.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2006)

Go with a blue one, I have it on all my tanks and it looks great! Here is a pic of my 55g with the blue background (sorry for poor quality of pics but I can't afford a digi cam),








But the background isn't that light of a blue because most of the pictures were kind of dark so I had to lighten them up, the background is alittle more dark than that. Also a sponge filter looks similar to this,









But IMO I don't think you need one as long as you have a good HOB (hang on back) filter as if you add that it will just be another thing that you'll have to wait for it to gather bacteria on.


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## judya (Jan 23, 2005)

Some backgrounds have two useable sides - maybe plain blue on one, and a lushly planted tank on the other. You use scotch magic tape to fasten them on. You could get a dual sided one and see which side you like. There used to be (Haven't looked for awhile) a somewhat shiny paper -sort of a subdued aluminum foil in several colors. There are backings that are freshwater looking ones and reef/coral ones, also sandy ones, probably for a reptile enclosure. I picked up a really cool one at a store going out of business sale - I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but it has spaceships, men in spacesuits, etc. Definitely tank realism!! There are some that look like a planted tank, but there are fish printed on them - that to me is a trifle odd, especially when they're a little oversized compared to reality.

Sponge filters are hooked to an airline and the water bubbles up through them. It pulls tank water into the sponge and up through it. The bacteria colonize all the little pockets. You don't clean them or do more than rinse them out in dechlorinated water once in a really long while. Just an extra place for good bacteria to live. That leaves the hang-on for more mechanical cleaning as well as chemical, if you use carbon, etc in the filter media. I use a bigger sponge than the one pictured - columnar, with a sponge maybe 3 - 5 inches tall and 4" wide, with a weighted base. They are also nice if you need to move fish to another tank for some reason - just take the live sponge filter and move it over to help get the new tank running. The advantage to using it in addition to a hang-on filter is that you can clean or replace the hang-on filter's media without losing all your good bacteria.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

A can of spraypaint (I perfer black) is just as easy and cheaper.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2006)

But its not that removable and if they wanted to change the background, they couldn't do it.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2006)

I believe you have correctly IDed your plants. The wisteria should make it in that light. It won't be a bright green color like it would be in higher light, but it should grow. It is a fast grower so it should help by using the ammonia in the tank during the cycle. I had it in my 55g when I set it up and only had like 0.7 watts per gallon...it didn't look so great but it grew. In higher light (~2wpg and more) it grows really fast.

Most petstores have the big rolls of background with more than one to choose from. All the chain stores around here have them, but I buy mine online. I have dark backgrounds on all my tanks....makes the plants stand out more IMO. But, you can use any background you want....after all its your tank.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

I've got an Aquaclear 50 which Hagen reports to be for 20-50 gallons. I'm sure it's not ideal (what stuff in a kit is?) but I hope it'll satisfy the need for a while. It nicely cleaned up the tank in about 3 days when we started it up. My mega-LFS didn't have any sponge filters. Actually, I've never seen anything like what Durbkat attached. I might have to go online.

Thanks for all the opinions on the background. I'll post up another picture when we pick one.

I'll also look further into what I can do about the lighting (without changing the canopy as that would be too much expense right now). But, the neon profiles I've seen already seem to indicate I have too much light - which is funny because they're tending to be out in the open without protection from the light.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2006)

Well they may not look like that, the ones at my lps are grey and some are circular, some are in the shape of the triangle and I believe one may be in the shape of a square.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2006)

I have an Aquaclear on each of my tanks. They are great filters. I have the AC50 on my 29g and it does a really good job of keeping the water sparkling clean.

You don't need a sponge filter....I don't use them, so unless you are thinking about one for the new quarantine tank...its alright if you can't find them.

The neons will be fine. I have 7 neons in my 29g with 2.2 watts per gallon (65 watts over the tank), so more light than you have....and they don't hide or anything. They're always out swimming happily.


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## PaulInKingston (Dec 4, 2005)

Hi there. I was born and raised on Torbay Road in ST. John's but now live in Kingston, Ont after retiring from the army. Good to have someone from the rock here.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Hi Folks, I've got an update for you. My first tank is cycled! :fun: 

I was worried there for a while. My ammonia's been down to almost nothing for ages but my nitrites kept getting worse even with frequent water changes (no gravel filtering). And suddenly in two days, it was completely gone and has been gone for some days. Yippee. No more stress. In total, of my 23 neons, I only lost two. The 2nd was more of a cull I will admit as he was swimming funny for a couple days. 

Unfortunately, I made a new mistake.  The algae I was getting was pretty bad, so we went to pick up a couple algae eating fish. The specialty LFS I switched to because of the mega-LFS' yucky tanks was out of bristlenose, rubberlip, and clown plecos. But the guy suggested chinese algae eaters so I took 4 of those (he recommended the number). I had read comments about the bad "algae eaters" on this forum but the guy said I must have been thinking about siamese algae eaters so I believed him. And now I know better. :chair: 

I went this evening to talk to the guy about returning them but they were closed. And, to be fair to the fish, they've done an awesome job of cleaning the tank. They are not pestering the neons at all. The neons were scared at first and kept away but now they couldn't care less if they're around.

But, now that I know how long and agressive they're going to get, I know I cannot keep them. And, I'm switching back to the mega-LFS.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2006)

They must be otto's or Siamese algae eaters as CAE's don't eat algae, they eat fish! Return those and get a bristlenose instead.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

They were definetly CAEs. I tried for some pictures but they always stayed at the back of the tank when I got near. I had a couple good pictures of CAEs, SAEs, and such from the internet so I'm sure. Perhaps it's only when they get older? These were only about an inch.

Anyway, they're gone. The LFS took them back.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

So now that my tank's cycled, I'm working on my final stocking plan. I added two dwarf gouramis yesterday based on trolling through this forum for advice. (Thanks everyone for helping so many people out and thereby helping all the other people coming after!). I had to do something quick to satisfy my wife who was chomping at the bit to get something a little bigger than the neons. 

So, I have in my 32g:

21 neons
2 dwarf gouramis
some real, some fake plants
driftwood
"river" gravel

I'm thinking of adding 4-5 corys and a pleco to complete the tank and I need advice on each. However, I cannot find the main varieties I want (panda cory, BN or rubberlip pleco) and I keep having to start on fresh research. I'm sure you can all appreciate how disappointing it is to go to the LFS and not coming home with fish because you don't know which ones are safe to get. So, what I'm hoping I can get from y'all is a list of acceptable varieties so I finally get this tank populated.

So, for the corys, I know to look for pandas and albinos. I'd like an active variety. For the pleco I know to look for BNs or rubberlip. So what am I overlooking? I am getting really stuck with the pleco though. All I'm finding is common. I am finding some other varieties of corys. Anyone have alternatives to plecos for my situation?

I apologize in advance for asking for help when the information is all out there to be gleaned, but being so new to the hobby, I'm getting researched out.

Thanks!


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2006)

I'd return about 11 of the neons then switch to sand instead of gravel as the gravel hurts the corys barbles then get a few corys and a bn plec or rubberlip.


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

I am thinking that I'll transfer some of the neons to my "quarantine" tank because it is going to get crowded. Is this how the spawning of fish tanks start?  After I put fish in the QT full-time, I have to get another QT tank don't I? 

Are you sure about the gravel? JustOneMore20 saw the picture and didn't think it would be a problem. I was concious of the problem though. I'd just hate to have to redo the tank again.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2006)

Well maybe the gravel will be ok. But why would you want to put them in the quarentine tank when they aren't sick?


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh, sorry. I just meant that I know my 32g will be getting crowded but I want to put more in it. That means moving some out. I don't want to take them back to the store. We're attached to them now. So, I've got my handy dandy QT tank standing back all ready to move into normal use. Then my QT tank isn't a QT tank anymore. 

So, I'll just have to go out and get another QT tank, won't I? Then I'll have three tanks. And if you've got three, may as well do a breeding tank or something and then it's four.  And so on and so on...


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2006)

What size is the QT tank? Do you have filter, heater and all that jazz?


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## NewfieFishGuy (Jul 27, 2006)

Yup, the LFS was having a clearance sale on starter kits a couple weeks ago. I think it was $70 for a 10g kit. Just need something for the bottom.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2006)

> They must be otto's or Siamese algae eaters as CAE's don't eat algae, they eat fish! Return those and get a bristlenose instead.


Its when they get older. At first they eat algae great...but they get more carnivorous with age.



> After I put fish in the QT full-time, I have to get another QT tank don't I?


If you still want to use a QT. I know its good to have one, but I haven't used one for my 3 tanks and the only problems I had were ich a couple times. And that was awhile ago....guess I'm lucky.

I think you could move as many as 8 neons into the 10g. If you want to keep any other fish with them, then I'd stay at 6.



> So, I'll just have to go out and get another QT tank, won't I? Then I'll have three tanks. And if you've got three, may as well do a breeding tank or something and then it's four. And so on and so on...


That my friend is MTS (multiple tank syndrome)...many of us have that on FF. Welcome to the club!

Oh and gravel will be fine for the cories as long as it is smooth. I remember seeing a pictures of yours and it looked fine. I have gravel in my 29g with pandas and albinos and they are all fine.

What kind of cories did you see in the LFS? Albinos do get a little big....as do Paleatus (peppered) cories. I'm just wondering what types you saw.

And the pleco...I got my bristlenose at a small fish store. Lucky find I guess because they don't sell them in any pet stores in the area. I've see rubbernose plecs though...surprised you haven't.

You don't really need a pleco. But, if you really want one, you could get a fancy pleco that stays small. Check out Exoticfinds.net. Most are pretty reasonably priced...you'll just have to pay for shipping (and you wouldn't have to if you found one locally). You can look at the plecs on there and then go to Planet Catfish, look through the Cat E-log for the L numbers and see how big they get. I wouldn't go for one that gets over 5 inches...anything bigger than that is too big. Try to find one that stays around 4 inches or smaller if you can.

Or you can just a whole bunch of cories for the bottom (when you find some you really like) and then get a few otocinclus for any algae you have. I wouldn't add them until you actually see visible algae though. They can be sensitive, but if you buy some that are pretty big (not skinny), they should be ok.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2006)

Most chain places and some locally owned pet stores will order a bn pleco for you if its on their list, as most have it on their list but they are not in demand.


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## Damon (Jan 18, 2005)

Durbkat said:


> They must be otto's or Siamese algae eaters as CAE's don't eat algae, they eat fish! Return those and get a bristlenose instead.


Where do you get your info. Juvenile CAe are some of the best algae eaters out there. They dont stop eating algae till the start to mature (usually 2+ years). Then they get agressive. While I wouldn't pick them because they can be very difficult to remove they do a great job of eating algae.


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