# help , please !!! undergravel filter n-established tank>>??



## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

I have a set up 55 gallon . it holds my loves of fancy goldfish, black moore's,and one huge 5in pleco and one med 3in pleco . I want to add to the filtration by adding a undergravel filter ... ok, a few questions and concerns........1st , whether I use a poerhead or fluval filter what is the reconmended gph for a undergravel filter >?? and 2nd, more important ....

what is the BEST way to do this >?? thier is about almost 2in of black gravel now, and i dont know what the best way to get up under it to place the filter is .... I dont want to stress my fishy's too much , but I would love to have the extra filtration . esp since these guys are really bad at waste ...LOL< so it would be a good thing to have in thier anyway ,. I have a topfin 60 gallon filter, and 2 differnt bubble stones;... and my tank Looks' clean, but I know under that gravel is fun fun every gravel clean ...LOL< not that I would stop , I know I must continue to gravel clean ..*right )) ?? but I would love to get some advice on the best possiable way to do this ...... thank you in advance to anyone who decides to please help me or give me some advice..... thanxs ~~~~~~~~starla 

I have a 55 gallon : 4fancy goldfish ,3 black moores,2 pleco's
I have a 10 gallon with my crawfish in thier he is cool ~!!! 
I have another 10 gallon with 5 striped danio's 2 cherry barb's, and a diamand tetra/ 
I have a 20 gallon : planted tank , 20 glo light tetra's , 2 small pleco's
I have a 29 gallon : with a bala shark, 9 tiger barbs and flying fox (he is huge !! fat guy ...lol, 

ok, I will fix this later so it comes up right , and put in some pics....


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I can't see putting in an undergravel filter without removing all the gravel from the tank. You take the water level down 6", put a dish drainer or similar strainer over the tank, lift the gravel into the strainer by the cupful and dump the strainer into buckets.


> gravel clean ..*right


Yes, perhaps even more so. UGs do a good job of biological filtration-they turn waste into nitrate. You still need to change water to get out the nitrate. If you already have a canister filter, such as a fluval, you can divert either the input or the output through the UG, but you have have trouble plumbing it, esp. as a 55 will need two separate filter plates, and thus two upright tubes. Running a filter output through a UG is called reverse UG filtration and will tend to push the waste out of the gravel. It might make for an uglier tank, but less gravel washing (you clean the waste from the canister filter instead). In a normal UG filter (air, powerhead or filter input) waste collects in the gravel and under the plate. Periodically, you need to repeat the remove the whole gravel removal process and lift the plates to clean under them. Oddly enough, most of my fish seem to tolerate this total destruction well and I haven't lost any fish from major tank cleanings, but cichlids are tough. Powerheads for UG filters should be fairly weak, after all they are replacing air-stones. If it was your only filter you would want a high flow rating , but the filter makes a worse mess if it is strong enough to suck food down into the gravel before fish eat it. A lot of people don't like UG filters anymore even through they are tried and true. Giant sponges with power heads can give you equivalent biological filtration with less work. If I had lots of money I'd replace all my UG filters with external sumps that I could clean by back flushing into a sink instead of breaking down the whole tank.


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## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

well thank you ,. i havent had any responses to my post , so i have done it . I moved most of the gravel into a strainer, and then moved the rest to the side , i left the fish in . they seemed to be fine. I have 3 black moore's, and 3 small fany's goldfish . then a big fancy goldfish, he is about 5in , and a 7in pleco , and I have one cory (the other 2 died when I bouth the set of 3 ) the one cory is a very happy fellow ..lol.. he prances and fly's around in the air bubbler most of the time. ok,and lets see .....yes my oranda fancy golfish , I paid 15 bux for her !! now she is acting very very poorly . I have put her in a net and she is lying on her back upside down, (as they somtimes do ) but not for this long , I belive she is in shock . I kept the air bubblers on the entire time but I did replase 75% of the water with cold water . I do not have the jugs or buckets atm, to hold water all day to room temop, nor did i think goldfis would be bothered by this ..... I do have a geater in thier i usually keep it about 72-78 degree's. it said it was 72 but the water seemed cold to me. I used the right amount of aquasafe , thow reading forums, I have heared of people over doing the aquasafe,.... is this a good thing to do >>?? anyway my other fish laid on the bottom of the tank for a hour or so , I looked at my huge pleco , and he looked white with black spots instead of the other way around. i figured since I used the scrub brush, and the scrapper. maybye he needed algea.....?? I threw in 4 algea wafers, and now with the heat back up , and the wafers getting eaten by him and the other goldfish everyone looks alot better i left in the old filters, they were not that dirty , but I know they need some of thier biolo9gocal in thier... I did a gravel clean b4 I placed in the uf, but I did not rinse or clean the rocks any futher...... i am hoping my oranda will be ok.......I am very worried about her at this point....she is laying there lifeless in the safty cage... I placed her in thier because she was kinda flying all over the tank like she had been hit or somthing .... so to stop her from hurting herself, I put her in thier for a little while, well she is breathing , but just laying there.......I really dont know what to do ... I have had her for about 8 mths, and I know I will just cry if she dies because my dumbass


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## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

had to put in a uf....... I just got it at a good deal .....im looking tonight to see the best way to hook it up I have it in ... and a power filter on one tube.. I think I have it in right .... as shown in directions, but I dont see how it pulls or pushes threw the uf. i guess I have to add some air tubing , and I dont know if that goes hooked up to the power filter, or if i have to use my air maker....lol, please excuse my terms' ....LOL< so any help would be greatly appreciated ~~~~~~~~~~~starla can I just ask what is the best way to hook up a uf >?? thank you ever sooo much ~~~~~starla


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

In one 55 I have two hard clear plastic upright tubes (1" should have come with, but you can buy) topped by two power heads that run all the time. To run with air, you still use the big tubes, but you run a small rigid tube down the middle of each large tube and end it with an airstone. If I were using air, I'd go to four upright tubes. 

Sorry about your goldfish, you could have shocked her with too rapid a temperature, pH or salt concentration change or she could have something else such as swim bladder disease. 

I guess I didn't expect you to make such a large water change 5-10 gallons is usually enough to play with the gravel. Large water changes are usually a good thing, but add the new water slowly, I add about a 2/3 a bucket at time and wait 15 minutes between buckets. 5 gallon plastic buckets are around $5/each at walmart and home depot. You might want to start collecting them if you don't have a python or other hose device. Even if you do, they are good to have on hand just in case your tank suddenly springs a leak (or someone breaks it with a music stand) and you have to have a place to put the fish while you empty it. 

If you have one upright attached to the power filter. You can buy a power head for the other side or use two upright tubes and airstones (powered with your air-pump). You might have to unbury more caps. Try not to let any gravel get into the hole and under the plate. If you use airstones, use the "air horns", that come with the UG filter to hold the rigid tubing in place and keep fish from going down the tube. I'm not kidding, this has happened to me. The reason one power filter isn't enough is that most 55 gallon UG filters have 2 plates and each plate needs its own source of flow.

I haven't used aquasafe, but if you add untreated water to the tank, you need to add the water treatment first and base the dose on the size of the tank rather than the amount of water replaced. Most water treatments are safe to double the dose, but be careful of those that say "adds alkalinity" ,"adjusts pH", "buffers water".


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## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

ok, thank you , well I have a power head attached, and well to be honest , I belive I have done all of this , for nothing , my poor oranda is still fighting for her life in the safty net , and shes breathing.but that is it .. I want to cry, I wish I knew how to save her,..... anyway i talked with a few experts who ALL said to pull the uf OUT !! they say it is bad , bad, bad..!!! So I am pulling it out, and listing it with a lot of items going to sell on ebay and craigslist and ioffer...................just a few places a post ads.....sell my stuff ... LOL< O , and buy too !! now I am looking for another BIG tank has to be 55 gallon or more.......and Im looking for cheap so it will take a while, but thats ok, I have lots of small tanks to sell in the mean time....LOL, I havent pulled it out yet , but I am planning on it , wow wish I would have known the bad' parts about this b4 I shocked my damn baby !!! I dont have any salt , it is a frshwater tank with fancy goldfish and black moore's . and big guy pleco , they all seem' to be doping great now......just my oranda seems hurt , or somthing ,.... she was fine, b4 I did this . I feel sooo bad .....~~starla 


ps) I am going to try and post some pics of some of my tanks , so you all can see what I have ...


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't think the UG hurt her. She could've gotten spooked and hit her head. There are a lot of drawbacks to UG, but I've used them for years with my Mbuna. I don't use them with plants, the roots get tangled up in them. Just because there is a technology that some like better doesn't make the old tech into a killer. UGFs have been used successfully for decades. I do think they make a lot of work, but my personal opinion is that as long as I'm wasting space in my tank for a gravel layer, I might as well get some filtration benefit from it. I'm really sorry about your fish, but please don't blame yourself. This kind of thing has happened to all of us and you may never know exactly what went wrong.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

UGF's have been in use for over 50 years, and there's nothing wrong with them. They aren't the best, but they're good for many applications. ( including ones like this )

Your main mistake was changing that much water with new water which was cold. When you change that much water at a time, it's very important to let that water sit out for a day to aerate, as water in the pipes doesn't have a good dissolved gases ratio. It also needs to warm up to match the tanks temperature. Small water changes with "raw" water are usually okay but a massive one like that is nothing but trouble.

Get that fish OUT of the little basket. That's one of the things which is keeping it from recovering.


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## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

wow, really >?? she has lost alot of fins on one side , all she does is lay there and breathe ........she dying i know it ,... and its from shock. i shocked them with the water change , i have doen it in my 29 gallon with my tiger barbs, never had any problem .... I am sad because , well i love my litte fishy , so i should just let her lay on the nottom of the tank>?? 

she ate some today ... i hand fed her... i kno wthey say eating is not nessary, but she has been like that for 4 days now !! i dont want her starve ... so i few her 2 flakes and she ate them , i put her on her other side, the one shes been laying on is loosing scales........ok, well im going to let her lye on the bottom of the tank tonight , I oray she doesnt die.. but it doesent look good right now ..........thanxs for any replies~~~~~~~starla


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## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

well, she is dead , the pleco picked at her until her death i belive , i found her late last night hard and all fins eaten off .. they knew she was sick, so they killed her......


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## neilfishguy (Oct 7, 2007)

i doubt a pleco would eat a living fish. probbably ate them after it died...sorry for your loss.


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## starsunmoon (Oct 25, 2007)

yeah well she was alive and just laying in one side in her little pen, I was told to take her out, and I belive since the other fish , knew she was dying they finished her off... but yeah she was probally dead before he ate her fins ...but anyway , she is gone and I am very upset over the whole thing , I know it was my fault , I did too big of a water change and the tempature shock was hard on all the fishy's , but everyone else seems great . she was the only one who did not make it ..............


QYESTION>>>>>>>> I have a bio-wheel pro 60 filter, that needs to be hooked up to a canister, (which I dont have one right now ) or a powerhead.. the one I have is 125 mpg and it requires a 150 to push it right , is there anything else it can be hooked up with >???????? I am running a topfin 60 hpb filter in the tank now........but I would like more filtration hince why I put the uf in the first place, but I am taking it out and selling it as everything I have heared it does more harm than good in the long run.....so I was wondering about that >?? if I can find a whisper 40, i will just add that in ( for a great deal _ !!) but for now I am looking at what I already have ......I could sell the bio-wheel pro60 there is only one selling on ebay and quite high , and its used !! mine is new in the box... so I may see if I can sell it , I dunno , but question is what all would power this thing , and does it actually do any good in the filtration process>???? my tank is established, and about almost 2 years old.................it looks great !!! i am still trying to post some pics, so you all can see my pretty tanks, ..... i have way too many , and ofcorse, I am still looking for another 55 or bigger !!! if I can fine that deal tank , I have been patiently waiting for ...........ok, any good replys would be greatly appreciated !!!!!!!!!!! to the love of fishy's ~!~~~~~starla


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