# Vote or pay up, What do you think?



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

When I argue politics, I ask "did you vote?". If you say no, I say "shut up". Our elections are regularly being decided by less than 30% of the registered voters (and lots of people don't register). Thats lower than places where polling places are being bombed. I understand that in Belgium, everyone votes or pays a fine. What do think. Our constitution forbids a "poll tax", but what about a reverse poll tax. Vote or pay up. We do need new revenue streams in order to balance our budget. What do you think of the idea?


----------



## Ghost Knife (Mar 12, 2008)

emc7 said:


> When I argue politics, I ask "did you vote?". If you say no, I say "shut up". Our elections are regularly being decided by less than 30% of the registered voters (and lots of people don't register). Thats lower than places where polling places are being bombed. I understand that in Belgium, everyone votes or pays a fine. What do think. Our constitution forbids a "poll tax", but what about a reverse poll tax. Vote or pay up. We do need new revenue streams in order to balance our budget. What do you think of the idea?


I vote even if I don't like the candidates. I voted in the 2008 Presidential Election, but didn't care for either candidate so I simply voted for the lesser of two evils. Of course our country is now stuck with a man who submits to foreign rulers, will spend us into more debt than any previous president, and is not even liked by most of his own party.


----------



## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

if by submit to foreign leaders you mean bowing to the japanese you might want to know something about there culture and know obama did the correct thing.It would have been disrespectful to not bow.
it is considered a sign of respect in there culture not of dominance or submission, you bow to everyone even those younger and of "lower standings" its like shaking hands when you go into a meeting you shake hands, you meet someone new you shake hands, they bow. none of this I am better so I refuse crap.
and then again submitting might be good for once not like the united states is KING of the world,  and you did kind of started the whole world recession thing  .

but emc I personally agree wish canada would also apply something along those lines.


----------



## Ghost Knife (Mar 12, 2008)

guppyart said:


> if by submit to foreign leaders you mean bowing to the japanese you might want to know something about there culture and know obama did the correct thing.It would have been disrespectful to not bow.
> it is considered a sign of respect in there culture not of dominance or submission, you bow to everyone even those younger and of "lower standings" its like shaking hands when you go into a meeting you shake hands, you meet someone new you shake hands, they bow. none of this I am better so I refuse crap.
> and then again submitting might be good for once not like the united states is KING of the world,  and you did kind of started the whole world recession thing  .
> 
> but emc I personally agree wish canada would also apply something along those lines.


Maybe it's because your Canadian, I am not sure, but no American president should ever bow to the Emperor of Japan. After they stabbed us this back at Pearl Harbor they deserved two atomic bombs and a president who would always stare the emperor in the eyes and shake his hand rather than bow. Obama was the first U.S. President ever to bow to the Japanese Emperor and believe you me he got drilled for that little independent stunt. I guess you would have to be a natural born American to understand this.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> will spend us into more debt than any previous president,


true and false, True, but congress has the purse strings, the president is only guilty of failure to veto. Our fault for electing a pres and both sides of congress from the same party


> and is not even liked by most of his own party.


 not necessarily a bad thing IMO. 

What about pay or play? Would it mess things up to encourage poor people to vote? Are they idiots who would just pick the first non-ethnic name on the ballot? Do you remember Lindon LeRouche? He would recruit candidates with anglo-sounding names close to the front of the alphabet and run them against incumbents that were hard to pronounce. Say Mary Andrews against Anik Czerniak. Or are we all potential good citizens that simply can't afford the time and effort to go vote and having to pay a fine for not voting would be enough incentive to get interested in the contest? 

Georgia has a lot of runoffs because state law forces a 50% of voters +1 minimum for most elections. In general, I think its good, because it keeps a person who got 20% of the vote in a 5-way race from representing all the people. But most runoffs have a smaller turnout, so an even smaller number of people actually choose the winner. 

Most contests now are decided by turnout. Pollers know how people would vote, but aren't as good at predicting who will actually go to the polls. Is this a real problem? Is the reason the country seesaws between extremes that only the extremists get out the vote in the primaries? Would making everyone vote bring the government back to the middle where the "silent majority" sits on the sidelines?

If you don't vote, why not? What would it take to get you to vote? Would you vote if you could do it over the internet or by mail? 

If you make everyone vote and they elect "none of the above", what should we do then?


----------



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Oh, I don't think we should worry all that much about voter turnout next time around... in fact, I think we'll see some mighty impressive numbers. ( _the democrats aren't going to LIKE those numbers, but they'll be impressive_ )


----------



## guppyart (Jan 22, 2005)

Ghost Knife said:


> Maybe it's because your Canadian, I am not sure, but no American president should ever bow to the Emperor of Japan. After they stabbed us this back at Pearl Harbor they deserved two atomic bombs and a president who would always stare the emperor in the eyes and shake his hand rather than bow. Obama was the first U.S. President ever to bow to the Japanese Emperor and believe you me he got drilled for that little independent stunt. I guess you would have to be a natural born American to understand this.


so by that standard shouldn't we all hate Germans who never even lived during the ww2 time period For being Nazis and killing innocent children and causing the genocide of a race?

shouldn't you hate me I burned down your white house way back :O, or all people from Iraq/Afghanistan or anyone who is islamic for bombing you.
this type of thinking towards the japanese just makes you a second rate country who thinks bullying and holding grudges is the answer to everything.

look how far its got how many dozens of countrys that are still fighting non stop wars over old transgressions just cause they won't let the past stay in the past.

I love my country I respect my country and its history but I don't use that as an excuse to insult people who are generations removed from an ancient incident, all native americans should hate us for stealing there land.

the Japanese paid for there transgression in a way no nation should ever again.

Americans aren't any better than anyone else we are all equals, a good opponent respects there opposition/enemy/friends if you don't you will pay for it later on someway it always comes back.
the saying what goes around comes around is very true.
live in the moment, look to the future, and respect the past and those who made it.

heh TOS has that right funny how if people don't like the government they will jump at the chance to change it

and yes wall of text


----------



## Ghost Knife (Mar 12, 2008)

It has nothing to do with hate and I don't think Americans are better just because they are Americans. We just have the best military. 

It's all about respect. An American President should not bow to the Japanese Emperor because that is putting himself lower than the Emperor. He should shake his hand maintain eye contact with him, which denotes that he respects him, but does not think he is lower than him.

You also may want to try using capital letters and punctuation because it would make your posts so much easier to read.


----------



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Bowing to the emperor of Japan, while IN Japan, really isn't such a bad thing. Bowing is just what they do in Japan, just like we shake hands. It's not a big deal.
If you want to worry about things the prez does, there are PLENTY of other things to really be upset about that actually matter.

Anyway, as for this pay a fine for not voting thing, I think it's stupid.


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

I don't want to engage in yet another Obama/Nobama debate, so I'll go back to the original topic...

How would you enforce a non-participation tax? You could tax people who are registered but don't show up, but that is just another reason for people not to register. How could you keep track of the 300M plus Americans to know where they are supposed to be registered and if they showed up? Plus, don't you really want the people who know the issues to be voting?

I would suggest we enforce an IQ requirement for voting. That would screen out as many ridiculous Glenn Beck fans as 'Obama is hot' people. We really don't need any of them making leadership decisions.


----------



## bmlbytes (Aug 1, 2009)

COM said:


> I would suggest we enforce an IQ requirement for voting. That would screen out as many ridiculous Glenn Beck fans as 'Obama is hot' people. We really don't need any of them making leadership decisions.


Although that would maybe get us smarter elected officals, I must disagree. Our constitution was formed in a way that every citizen would be represented. This includes the not so smart types. Also if only the smart got to vote, you might see a bias toward the rich, since a lot of the richest people in the world are in fact the smartest.


----------



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

*Ahem* There is actually a law against an IQ test for voting, used mainly to prevent the possible misuse of such a law to deliberately disenfranchise certain groups. Yes, such a law would be handy to do just that very thing, but then we'd never agree on who to keep out of the polls.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

> How could you keep track of the 300M plus


 We have the technology. Its just a matter of will and money. I'd rather we keep track of our non-citizens (student visas, etc.) and not-voting felons, but tracking everyone would take care of those issues too. Every child now gets a SSN so its parents can get a tax deduction. I

I don't think we could really implement it here, but if we did, would we get better outcomes or worse? I keep hearing stuff like "I don't like any of them, so I don't vote". A country of non-voters get the government it deserves. And the fewer people who determine the winners, the easier it is to buy an election and we get profiteers in office.

Would open primaries be better? Give non-partisan candidates the same chance as those who pander to either machine,


----------



## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

if i am not mistaken ; according to international protocol ; the emperor of japan is higher ranking than the president of the u.s.....when hailie silassie reigned ;he was the highest ranking leader in the world..
to show your respect for another ; you do what is customary in their country..humility is something that few americans understand...we tend to be a rather ignorant bunch..

emc..i really do not think there is any economical way to track down non-voters to fine them..but i do agree that there should be some kind of penalty for them..
and i agree with your "shut up" response...folks may be entitled to an opinion about who should run the country..but if they didn't vote ; they need to keep that opinion to themselves...


----------



## OCtrackiepacsg1 (Oct 18, 2009)

shaking hand= to bowing of Japan though I had to say Japanese bow is more of a head bob than a 90 degree bow. But its honestly not a big deal if you ask me he didn't come crawling to him kissing his feet this video made me laugh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA
many of the leaders (including Harper from Canada) did a little head bow so did the emperor. but back on topic
I don't think you have to pay up if you don't vote, that will only lead to people recklessly voting!! People that do vote, care. People that don't, don't care and should keep their mouth shut! Also a fine for not voting would only piss the citizens of america up in the harsh economic times


----------



## shev (Jan 18, 2005)

I don't know if I agree with this. In one hand if they didn't care enough to vote, they shouldn't care enough to talk politics with someone that did.

But on the other hand, maybe not voting is a vote. The founding fathers never envisioned a two party system. Despite its efficiency, it's also pretty ridiculous. The two major parties typically (especially as of late) aren't that different. You can feel special for casting your vote and participating, but if it was merely for the lesser of two evils or just to go with the crowd in voting, it doesn't mean much to me. Ron Paul was my candidate of choice and he didn't even make it on the ballot in almost every state. It's the third party candidates that are the most different and have the least chance of winning, to the point it's seen as throwing away your vote.

As for the bowing thing... lol. I think people that are offended by this need to step back and ask themselves if another candidate had done the same thing, if they would be as offended. Our politics have become so polarized people really do hate the candidate they didn't vote for, and I think you should take a step back and ponder if your biases are getting the best of you.

Besides, he did shake hands, and bowed. You can look at it as lowering himself, but I just simply see it as being respectful of other cultures and their traditions. It'd be inconsiderate to go to their country and expect them to adhere exclusively to your cultural traditions (ie shaking hands).

Take Bush for example. This must have been very awkward for him, yet he did it anyway. Yay for diplomacy imo, only raises my opinion of him.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

My problem with low voter turn-out is that if only 'interested parties' vote, you get government by and for the 'interest group'. The organizations that hire lobbyists to write laws and buy advertising to influence votes will get what they want regardless of whether or not it best for the nation. On health care reform, I see the 'anything is better that what we have now" group and the "h*ll no, don't pass anything group". I'd like to see more people pouring over the proposals and exposing which provisions benefit which interest groups. I don't believe 'interest groups' are automatically evil. Retirees and insurance companies and hospitals all have interests that they have every right to lobby for. But I hate to see only "interested parties" at the table dividing up tax revenue without the taxpayer sitting in.


----------



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I certainly agree with that, but I don't think that forcing people ( _morons, most of them_ ) to hurry up and pick a side just to avoid a fine is a very good idea, either.


----------



## COM (Mar 15, 2008)

shev said:


> maybe not voting is a vote.


That's a good point. A significant part of the non-voting population might very well be voicing their dissatisfaction with the candidates by not voting at all.


----------



## predator (Jan 28, 2005)

I have only become political in the last year and a half or so... I have never voted... Y have i never voted? The Two party system is a joke... there should be no such thing as primaries that concentrates vote into a certain person and swings votes to them... This makes in nearly impossible for anyone that is not a D or an R to get into anything of importance in any type of number.

And the D's and the R's are ****************heads that are nothing but power hungry money grubbing ass holes...

BTW to who ever said something about "glenn beck crazies"... I listen every day and take atleast 50% (possibly more) of what he says with a grain of salt... But if he is right on 10% of the things he says... We are all HOSED.... and i believe CNN (you know not FAUX news)has started picking up some of his stories about 5 months after he originally reports them...

I also dont vote because they are all rigged (by both sides) and the average american is an uniformed ignorant self indulged piece of crap... And that is who elects the people that run our country... I dont really feel like even leaving work to vote until there is something worth voting for... When the ballot has someone that is not a lying, cheating, crazy that actually stands a chance to win... I'll vote...

-me

BTW I support a box that says "I came... I saw... I chose not to vote for any of you nondeserving bastards..." on every ballot...


----------



## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Heh,heh.. that would be great. Alas, I suspect that most folks would choose that option.


----------



## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I can't disagree with COMs assessment of our candidate choices. I just feel that a government by those who care enough to vote is a government for those who benefit from government. We are giving away our rulership to "talking heads" beholden to government contractors (haliburton donates to campaigns), employees (unions vote), and entitlement recipients (Medicare users vote).

I usually think talk radio is right-wing nuts, but one host made a good point recently. The most highly-paid federal government employees got nice raises during the same recession where private wages were basically frozen (some of us got a pay drop). 

IMO the problem with Beck and the others that make opposition politicians out to be demons is that listeners start blaming instead of trying to fix things. If you can't go to local meeting without screaming at each other, how can even accomplish anything? IMO the "fact" that the Democrat (or the right-wing) are trying to "take over the government" isn't something you need to convince anyone of. Its a given, thats what political parties are for. Get over your anger and try to fix what bothers you most.

I'm just grateful that we have a process for 'bloodless' revolution and that we can always go vote and change our government again. But many dictators got elected, then abolished elections. Its risky to simply ignore our political process because we don't like who's running.


----------

