# pH changing from 8.8 to 6.4... Help!



## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

I'm trying to figure out why this is happening. Here I was worrying about the pH being too high, and it's actually too low, and it's continuing to drop.

I had to switch over from bottled water to treated tap water. The tap water here is at a pH of 8.8, maybe higher. (It's as high as my tester goes.) It tests that high even after being treated with water conditioner and allowed to sit out for three days. 

So I started to slowly add it to my tank day by day, which was at a steady 7.2. The pH isn't going up, it's going down. On 4-15 it was 7.0. On 4-22 it was 6.8. And tonight 4-29, it's 6.6.

I add three drops of liquid calcium daily for the snails, fresh cucumber every night, and one drop of iodine for the ghost shrimp every Sunday. The tank is still cycling. The Ammonia is at .25, but the Nitrites are at 2.0 every night. The Nitrates were at 5.0 from 4-12 to 4-15, droped to zero, and have been at 5.0 from 4-17 to today. 

Please don't yell at me for cycling a tank fully stocked. I didn't have a choice. My last one broke and the filter burned out. 

Any ideas or advice would be appreciated. I've always had problems with high pH, never with low.


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## ultasol (Mar 12, 2006)

DO you know the gh/kh? With an adequete buffer, and please correct me if I'm wrong, shouldn't the PH swings be minimized? Do you inject Co2?
What is your media?


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## toadstoool (Apr 29, 2006)

If your water coming into the house is 8.8 or higher have you of haveing a waterconditioning system installed it would be better for you and you fish.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

You need to check your KH and GH - sounds to me like your water has no buffering capacity. Here is a good article that explains it..

KH and GH


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## Carl (Jul 7, 2005)

All of the above should be checked out, along with your test kit as sometimes they are faulty. If your fish show any signs of illness you will know somethin is wrong but if they seem fine, try another test kit. I have just experienced this, my test said that the Ph was 8.0 in my biggest tank, so i bought some ph buffer and my motoros dead coz the ph went so low and the kit was faulty. Its a bit long winded but i thought id xplain myself lol.


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

Double checked with a different kit:

Tank is:
pH 6.4
kH 0
gH 120

2 day old treated tap water:
pH 8.4
kH 80
gH 120

7 day old treated tap water is:
pH 7.0
kH 80
gH 120

So what do I do now? I'm pretty sure that the Nitrogen cycle has stopped. I have no idea what's going on with the tap water. I can't afford to go back to bottled....But, everything in the tank is healthy and active.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

If the kH is 0, something is eating all your calcium. You can add buffering capacity with something like "cichlid salts" or "cichlid chemistry". You could try a different water treatment product. What is your pH of untreated tap water, one week old. For those fish, what is your target pH? Your water is unusual, most high pH tap water is very hard too. If you get your kH up, your pH should stabilize.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Your nitrates aren't going up? Do you have a lot of plants and/or algae?


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

I've never tested old untreated tap water. After a few hours it tests at somewhere over 8.8 (that's how high the test goes and the color is nowhere close to 8.8), but I think that's from the cloramines reacting with the testing chemicals. Once it's treated, it drops to 8.8.

Target pH is around 7.5. It might be a little high for the loaches, but I'm more worried about the snails. They're growing like weeds. In a month, the blue one has put on an inch and a half of shell growth alone. They have perfect shells though, I think because of the added calcium. 

I don't have any live plants, only pieces of cucumber, zuccini, or spinich. No green algea, only diatoms on the tree root decoration and the plastic plants at the surface.

We have hard water deposits on every sink in the house. It was so bad in the bathroom it ate right through the chrome on the faucet and we had to replace it. Once a month we have to flush the screens on the faucets because they get plugged. I just don't get it. The water should be the exact opposite of what it is.

Are there buffers available without salt? The loaches won't tolerate salt.

I've never messed around with water parameters before. Is it safe to do?


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

What kind of gravel are you using. Is the same stuff you had in the old tank? Have you added any other decorations in the new tank that were not in the old tank?


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

Same gravel, with 5 pounds new added (Estes "bit o'walnut"). Same plastic plants.

New ornament, though - a painted resin tree from Top Fin. And new metamorphic rocks for decorations. (They're nothing but marble and quartz.)

Looking back through my notes, the problem only started when I added the tap water. I don't think it's the stuff in the tank, seeing as how the pH drops when the water is sitting in plastic jugs for a week.


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

quartz will not affect pH and Estes is usually epoxy coated and nontoxic. So that should not be a issue.

Marble on the other hand is a highly calcareous rock and could cause issues with raising your pH. It ranks right behind Limestone as far as raising pH. Try pulling out the Marble and see if that helps hold the pH a bit more steady. I know you say the water seems unstable even before putting it in the tank but it dosent hurt to eliminate problems all the way through.


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

Okay, I took the rocks out. But I need the pH to raise, so shouldn't they be good to have in the tank?


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

How often do you do water changes and how many airstones and filters do you have on the tank? Do you use a gravel vac when you do clean the tank?

The ultimate trick is to figure out what is causing the problem not just throwing more stuff in the tank to fix it.


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

If we can solve this problem and market the technique, we can make a fortune! Turning hard water into soft is very difficult to do and that is exactly what is happing here ( by magic ). Tap water KH is 80. When it goes into the tank, it becomes 0. I can't explain it!


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

Okay, I had completely forgotten about this. About a month ago I broke one of those little glass aquarium thermometers. The interior tube with the red dye didn't crack, but the bottom where all the weights were did. They sank right through the gravel, and I had no way of getting them out. I called the company and they said that they were non-toxic. So I just left them in there. They're probably lead. Would that have an effect on the hardness? (I've never taken chemistry, can you tell?) If it is the problem, can someone tell me how to get them out? They're so tiny and heavy, I can't get them off the bottom of the tank!

edit to add:
I have a one Tetra Whisper, with the floss and carbon insert. No airstones. 
I've been changing out one gallon of water a night since the nitrites aren't dropping. I vaccume every second or third night.


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## jwddboy (Apr 29, 2006)

lead wont affect it. Keep up the water changes. Try some bog wood as a buffer?


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

Sounds like you have had quite rough time with the tank overall. I dont think the lead will affect the pH but it might give your fish brain damage.  Kind of like eating paint flakes. Tasty...

Dont use Bog wood or any other driftwood. That will only lower your pH more.


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

When you add calcium, what is it exactly? Calcium carbonate?


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

If you want more buffering capacity, add sodium bicarbonate ( baking soda ).


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

Kent's liquid calcium. It's deionized water and calcium cloride. I chose it because I thought I'd be dealing with too high of a pH, and it has no effect on the water. (I made sure to test just the calcium in the tap water once these problems started.)

So from what I'm getting from everyone is that I first need to raise the buffering capacity to normal (120), and get that steady, and then the pH should raise to wherever it's supposed to be. If it's not high enough, I can adjust it with either packaged chemicals, or with a more natural approach like limestone.

I don't get paid until Thursday, so I'll wait to start adjusting things until then. I'll need to get a new testing kit for kH and gH, if the stores carry them. (Aquariums are not a big thing in this area.) I'll also get a new water conditioner, just to see if that makes a difference. Should I also try a commercial buffer? Is there even such a thing? I'm finding liquid pH control products, but I have no idea if those are good to use. Somehow the idea of a product that "magically" keep the pH at 7.0, no matter what starting point is kind of worries me. 

I don't like the idea of using baking soda because of the loaches. Everything I've read say that they can't handle large amounts of salt.

Yeah, unusual things have a tendancy to happen to me. Shingles without ever having chicken pox, the cat with the chemical burn that wasn't a chemical burn, the other cat with the fever and swollen paw pads that just magically went away, and right now I have another very sick kitty in the hospital with liver failure and with no reason or diagnosis for it.... (She's doing okay. If she keeps food down, she may be home in a day or two.) Sigh.


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## fish_doc (Jan 31, 2005)

> the other cat with the fever and swollen paw pads that just magically went away


did the cat magically go away or the swollen pads? Sorry couldnt resist. 
Actually sounds like that may have been a bee sting or somthing like that.


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

Actually, we had six vets working on it, and not one could tell me what caused it. (My own vets and the ones at the shelter. He was a foster of mine until he got sick. I just couldn't let him go after that.)


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

The seachem regulators line are phosphate buffers, they are more stable than carbonate buffers (found in the seachem buffer line) but can cause algae blooms if you have a lot of light. Supposedly they are a blend on two chemicals that keep the pH in a range, and are therefore safer than the the acid or alkaline buffers that move your pH too far if you add too much. 

I suggest you try calcium carbonate instead of or in addition to calcium chloride. calcium carbonate is the same chemically as limestone and crushed coral and, someone correct me if I'm wrong, snail shells. If the snails take Ca+ and CO3- from the water and leave the the cl-, what does that do to pH? You're right that adding calcium carbonate should raise the pH and hardness. Or try the baking soda: CaCl + baking soda = limestone + table salt, but probably not a lot of salt.


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## wodesorel (Mar 26, 2006)

The pH is down to 6.0..... This is really starting to worry me. I can't figure out what the underlying problem is, and I'm worried now that adding more chemicals will just make it even worse.


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## IloveCichlids (Jul 11, 2005)

try some limestone to buffer your water


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

Change some water and hold off on the calcium drops for a few days and see what happens. If the pH & hardness stablilize, then you'll know that its the snails taking all your carbonate, and you need to replace it. If the pH keeps falling, at least the water change will put it back up rather than let it go further down.


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I am wondering if bog wood and mopani are similar?
mopani does not lower ph. I have tried it.
mouse


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