# Call me old school if you want.........



## Guest (Mar 18, 2006)

Since re joining Fishforums I have been reading many of the threads here and it seems many folks are complicating fish keeping and aquarium management. Lets take a step backwards and think about what fish need to remain healthy and thrive. Basically they need good water quality and a proper diet. If you are keeping tropical fish they also need a tropical environment. That's about it.

I currently maintain about 1600 tanks. That's right 1600. I don't even remember the last time I tested my water. The only chemicals I use when changing water is the cheapest declorinator I can find. 

Here is one example of a fish tank I currently have set up about 6 feet from me in my living room. It was set up about 3 weeks a go and I have yet to test it. I was in N. Carolina and I caught some very cool shiners and some nice darters, I also caught a 2" large mouth bass and a 3" sunfish. When I finally got them home after 3 days in a hotel room and a 12 hour drive I tossed an established sponge filter in an empty 29 and filled the thing up with dechlorinated tap water, then I tossed all those fish (about 40 of the dang things) in the tank and started feeding them. The following weekend I collected some unknown plants and tossed them in. Last weekend I collected some killies, rock bass, and sticklebacks and tossed them in. I have not lost one fish yet nor have I tested for anything in this tank.

Today I am setting up a brand new 40 breeder and I am going to move all these fish, the plants and the sponge filter into it. I will use brand new dechlorinated water and some rocks I collected in a creek recently. I am not going to boil anything or even clean the rocks, I don't care if they are a little dirty, a little dirt is fine in a tank. I like messing with my tanks and I don't like testing stuff and boiling rocks and whatever else the new books and pet shops say I gotta do. I have been keeping fish for over 35 years and frankly if I had to be as careful as most folks claim I should be with my tanks and tank management I would have got out of this hobby a long time a go.

What I am getting at here is- If I posted what I have done with this tank and these fish during the last few weeks I bet tons of folks would tell me I am doing things all wrong.......Why? My fish are all doing great, my yet unidentified plants are growing out of the top of my tank and most importantly I have been enjoying the whole thing instead of spending my time testing all sorts of crap and cooking my rocks on the stove for know real reason.

I am interested in any comments some of the old timers that have been keeping tanks a long time have to say about this post! 

Here is the tank I am moving the fish and plants out of today. Notice it was just a temporary setup sitting on the floor!


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

once you know all the rules, you can learn how to bend and even break them properly. new people don't know the rules yet. they don't know about the nitrogen cycle, about water changes, about stocking and plants. you have to know the rules first, have to know the RIGHT way to do something before you can figure out a not-so-right way that works for you.

would you cram 8 commet goldfish in a 10g tank with a brand new filter and substrait, no plants, for any length of time? probably not, because you know that's just not gonna work. your gonna end up with sick, dead, stunted fish. yet newbies do this all the time. they have to understand the rules first, understand how a cycle works and how the chemicals can effect fish and get a little expirience under their belt before they can go and figure out things their own way.


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## Sprite42 (Mar 10, 2006)

I always advise new fish keepers to test their water, but never do it myself and never have. I don't even own test kits. Like you, when setting up a new tank, I use another established filter and chunk everything in.

I do not even acclimate new fish. When I get home, I put them into whatever tank they will live in. I think acclimating them is stressing them even more. Why go through that twice. I am quite sure my tanks are way overcrowded, but haven't lost any fish other than to old age. I do the regular tank maintenance, water changes weekly and complete filter cleaning every 3 months on a rotation basis (9 cycled tanks) I buy the cheapest dechlorinator Walmart has, too! I don't keep uncycled tanks, cuz I am lazy and don't want to do 100% water changes (even for the bettas).

I do not know if I qualify as an 'old timer' or not, I kept fish as a kid (8 to 15 years old) and then got out of it when other things got in the way. I started back into it several years ago and have been obsessed ever since. 

BTW, tank looks great. Any idea what that plant is? (I want some!)


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## emc7 (Jul 23, 2005)

I am guilty of overloading my tanks and not changing enough water. I seldom use quarrantine tanks, but I know I should because I have lost fish because of new fish which die and take tankmates with them. I would never advise anyone else to do as I do. I post with the best advise I have. Having newbies test water is one way to convince them that ammonia, nitrite, etc. are real and they really need to change water despite what they were told at pet store and the fact that "cousin fred" has never changed water in 50 years.


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## LittlePuff (Jan 17, 2005)

I think his water looks awful. And top-dwelling fish can't reach the top.

Kim


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## Fishboy93 (Jun 11, 2005)

LittlePuff said:


> I think his water looks awful. And top-dwelling fish can't reach the top.
> 
> Kim


Its not horrible water its just stained...if you think thats bad put a piece of driftwood in a tank without charcoal or any preparations... as for the top dwellers i see your point maybe those killies arent topdwellers? I have collected killes and other fish that look like top dwellers but they stay low and cling onto rocks....not trying to be mean im just showing there are explanations....

Lotsoffish- those are some impressives plant aslo your fish too! i wish there were more fw collecting sites around me...its mainly brackish


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## flamingo (Nov 5, 2005)

I also barely test my water lol.

I sort of agree with what he said. People are always talking about how you need all this fancy equipment blah blah blah don't overstock your sw tank blah blah blah. Yet i'm sitting here with no fancy stuff and heck my sw tank is overstocked a couple times over! and they are all doing fine with zero ammonia, healthy fish, etc. Of course though it's not the best thing to do but everyone makes it sound like THEY ARE GOING TO DIE and there's no other conclusion.

The main thing I get from fishforums.com is that people think differently on keeping fish here. On other forums you'll get a different answer then if you asked it on here. One example would be setting up a fowlr tank, on every other forum and website they all agree thats the best to start with, yet on here everyone says it's either a fish only or a reef, anything beyond that shouldn't be done. And once again, i'm sitting here with a fowlr tank and another coming tomorrow!


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## SueM (Jan 23, 2004)

What did we ever do before just recently, with in the last few years discover there even was such a thing as a nitrogen cycle??? 
I was 5 when my dad explained to not clean the slime out of the filters. He had no idea why, but he knew it kept his fish alive & happy. There was slime in the lakes, rivers & creeks so pure logic says tanks need it too.

There was no 500 different chemicals on the shelves at the fish store. We didn't subtract everything (RO) to just add it back in with expensive chemicals. Or add even more chemicals to raise, lower adjust. We used good old-fashioned Peat Moss, wood, coral sand and lime stone. And I believe our fish were much more healthy and they didn't get near as many diseases. This is the way I still breed & care for my fish. And except for one that may come in sick, I very rarely have to treat for diseases. 

I firmly believe it's all the chemicals people add to their tanks that give them problems, so then they add a different chemical to counteract that, and around & around. Just leave your water alone, and if you do need higher or lower pH use mother natures ideas.

I don't believe you can have an over stocking problem either unless you are too lazy to do water changes. I've had 300 silver dollar size angels in 45 gal tanks for quit while, all it takes is water changes. Pete keeps hundreds of fish in 40 gal breeder with just a sponge filter. I've seen 15 10-12 inch goldfish in a 55 gal that were happy as clams because the owner set them up with over filtration and did regular changes. A friend told me of a large trout living in a clear PVC pipe only an inch bigger around then it was, the water in the pipe was constantly moving and replenished, the fish didn't even know it didn't have room.

The water in our temporary native tank on the floor is clear as a bell, and that's is the way native fish like it. We even added the leaf debris and what not that came in on the seine net. And since there are no top dwellers in the tank, they love the cover of the plants even more. That many plants will solve any nitrate problems, and if it wasn't for needing it to run the filter, we wouldn't even need to add air.

Same as Pete, I don't boil rocks or wood, but I do rinse off the big chucks of dirt, the rest I figure will be good for my tanks, settle into the substrate and make the plants even happier. And if there is any bugs? well that's free fish food. 

I think any new comer to the hobby should stop listening to all the different "this is how I do it's" and sit down and read a book by Dr. William T. Innes, he is one of the best to teach basics without all the fancy hooplah. That is what new comers need more then listening to the guy at the LFS, who only wants to sell fish & chemicals.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

that's all well and good, but what about the people 30 years ago who NEVER changed their water, just topped it off when it evaporated, or kept goldfish in little unfiltered bowls and thought a year or two was their normal lifespan? or how some people seem to think that a bubbler or air stone are the same thing as a filter?

i also use the cheapest dechlorinator at walmart (wardleys) and i use no other chemicals in my tank. period. my fish are just fine with my 7.8 pH and hard water. but i do have a liquid test kit, and when i was setting up my very first "real" fishtank about 6 months ago, i tested about twice a day while it was cycling. it was probably overkill, but it didn't hurt anything. now i test maybe once a month just to keep an eye on things so i know where my nitrates stand. i do weekly 50% water changes and gravel vacs, and that's it. i don't think anyone does make it complicated until you have a newbie who's got 8 goldfish in a 10g tank and is wondering why they're covered in white spots, gasping at the surface and dying right and left. then you have to teach them from the beginning, which includes learning all the rules, then learning how to break them once they've got some expirience.


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## Sprite42 (Mar 10, 2006)

I agree too that you have to learn the basics before you can bend the rules. HOwever, when you buy a new tank, if you take the time to read the literature that comes with it, they all state the stocking regs and tell how and when to do water changes which are the life of the aquarium. As with any new thing, always read the directions.

As accessible as the internet and library's are, there is no reason not research compatibility and sizing issues before even starting. I have even gone to the LFS and stood and read the books for sale (without buying) to find out the specs on a particular fish.

I have extremely hard water with a pH out of the tap at 8.0. I never even stop to think about adjusting it. The key to that is stability. I may very well be wrong here, I just think that the fewer chemicals and unnatural things that fish are exposed to, the better for their health over all.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

:argue: I will probaly get blasted for this but I do know a guy at work that has a 55 gal. tank that claims to never had done a water change and has been keeping fish for 30+ years and has never lost a fish. He said that his water is R.O. and all he does is top off.

I could not believe this but his wife said the same thing as well as his kids.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

Ok, so just to comment, the learning the rules rule is just what has to be done,when you know how it works then all the rules can be bent and broken,I have told this many times to other people that are new but they seen to know more than me.


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

like me, most people who weren't familiar with my tank might say that 16 1.5-2" long fish in a 20g tank is over stocking. but if you look at the fish (6 glowlight tetras, 6 blue tetras (coming soon) 3 otos, and one honey gourami) they are all slim-bodied fish that don't produce a lot of waste (except for the otos) and its a long tank (30") so the tetras all have plenty of room to swim, the otos just chill on the glass or driftwood or plants, and the gourami hides in the plants most of the day. the fish have plenty of swimming room, and my bioload is perfectly under control with 50% water changes once a week. 

i'm bending the rules, but i'm only getting away with it because i figured out a way to bend the rules the right way that doesn't compromise my fish, plus i have a decently planted tank (med to med-heavy planting) which helps keep nitrates under control and the water clean. but i had to know what the rules were first, and i had to start off slow and learn the way my tank worked before i could do it.


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

I just want to know how you can legally collect a 2" largemouth bass (and then transport it across state lines) ?

The big secret (sssshhhhhh! ) is *established *sponge filters !

I keep a bunch running at all times, so if I bring unexpected fish home from an auction or collecting trip I have a cycled tank almost instantly.

(I missed that part when I read your post the first time, I thought you were depending on just plants for nitrogenous waste removal)


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## redpaulhus (Jan 18, 2005)

1600 tanks or 1600 gallons ?
By my reckoning, if you did water changes in 10 tanks a day you'd be changing water every 160 days (ie ~5 months) for each tank ? Ditto other maint c****s ?

Assuming you take 5 seconds on average to feed each tank (including walking to each tank, opening the cover etc, feeding, closing, and moving to the next tank) that means you can feed 12 tanks a minute. 1600 tanks at a rate of 12 per minute means about 133 minutes, or just over 2 hours _per day_ to feed the fish ?


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

redpaulhus said:


> I just want to know how you can legally collect a 2" largemouth bass (and then transport it across state lines) ?
> 
> The big secret (sssshhhhhh! ) is *established *sponge filters !
> 
> ...



I never said anything about legally doing anything!


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2006)

redpaulhus said:


> 1600 tanks or 1600 gallons ?
> By my reckoning, if you did water changes in 10 tanks a day you'd be changing water every 160 days (ie ~5 months) for each tank ? Ditto other maint c****s ?
> 
> Assuming you take 5 seconds on average to feed each tank (including walking to each tank, opening the cover etc, feeding, closing, and moving to the next tank) that means you can feed 12 tanks a minute. 1600 tanks at a rate of 12 per minute means about 133 minutes, or just over 2 hours _per day_ to feed the fish ?


I even find time to goof around!


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## garfieldnfish (Jan 18, 2005)

I am not an oldtimer as I have only been doing the fish thing for a little over 2years. But during that time I have added one tank after the other and now have 13. (nothing compared to your 1600)
The first tank was a 1.5 gal (tossed that one out some time back) and I added 2 goldfish. A week later I bought a 46 gal for them. I have made many mistakes and learned from them. Most of my tanks were cycled with filter material from the earlier tanks and the bait and tackle shop minnows that are currently still living with me on borrowed time. Cycling did not seem to have had any bad effect one them. But since the first and second tank, I stopped testing the water. I do weekly water changes of at least 25% (in one tank 90%, lots of poop there) but I have not used a quarantine tank and so far that did not cause any problems. I have R/O water, so water changes are easy. All my tanks are planted and I refused to use neon colored gravel or any of the other junk people toss in tanks that have fish ask for sunglasses.

I am getting a few rare corys the end of this month and their tank is waiting for them with plants, deco and all. Apple snail babies have started the cycle and filter material will be move in when the corys get here, but it will be their permanent home as I believe what other people already wrote that a quarantine tank causes more stress on the fish. Of course in this case this tank will only house them (snails will be removed before the corys go in) so it could technically also qualify as a quantine tank.


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## ijedic (Jan 18, 2005)

LittlePuff said:


> I think his water looks awful. And top-dwelling fish can't reach the top.
> 
> Kim


What? Ya can see clear to the wall behind it! 


Pete, I don't boil the rocks or wood, but I do rinse it and sun dry it. I'm guilty of the grab and plop. The only chemical I add to my water is stress coat. (have used kosher salt on occasion) I don't believe in charcoal/carbon, as long as your tank is healthy the water is clear without it.


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## msdolittle (Mar 4, 2006)

Holy moly Pete! You must be one busy dude!

All I can see thats missing is a rocking chair.....to sit and watch the fish in.


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## meyerhaus (Feb 27, 2006)

You are my hero. My wife thinks that I am nuts for wanting to set some tanks up in the basement.


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## meyerhaus (Feb 27, 2006)

and she said "no fish that eat other fish."


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

very interesting thread!


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## Trouble (Oct 6, 2005)

I do test my tanks but only when I see a prob...fish acting weird or so. And it makes me feel like a chemist! lol

I also don't like to put any chemicals in my tanks unless absolutely necessary. I use stress coat with changes or when adding new fish and some salt but thats about it. I have other stuff I have bought but found that regular water changes and cleanings pretty much keep my tanks good.


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## Georgia Peach (Sep 23, 2005)

Trouble said:


> I do test my tanks but only when I see a prob...fish acting weird or so. And it makes me feel like a chemist! lol
> 
> I also don't like to put any chemicals in my tanks unless absolutely necessary. I use stress coat with changes or when adding new fish and some salt but thats about it. I have other stuff I have bought but found that regular water changes and cleanings pretty much keep my tanks good.


thats about the same way I do it!


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## rbishop1 (Feb 17, 2006)

We have kept freshwater fish since about 1976, with as many as 40 tanks at one time. Mainly cichlids, but also your standard tropicals. Probably overstocked consistently, rarely overfed, and knew about ammonia/nitrogen from day one. Since coming on this forum and two others recently, you would get the impression that the "cycle" was something just discovered and it belongs to "them" and only "they" can tell you what to do.

We have always overfiltered, done hefty water changes, stayed away from chemicals and constantly observed our fish for growth and moving them to larger tanks. For years we would try for sucessful spawnning and then trade mated pairs to try again. 

We believe sponge filters are vastly underrated, wet/dry are overated, all our tanks except a few planted ones have undergravel or reverse flow undergravel, with or without cannisters. No HOB filters. Solid fan of aeration to maximize water surface to air area.

I've read thread after thread of pros, cons and you can't do that, it really doesn't work, that's old school when they didn't know what we know now...enough to make you laugh or cry.

What works for me...works for me. The enviornment we provided was proper and healthy for our fish, they were not stunted or deprived.

My 2 1/2 cents.

And yes, you can keep more than two goldfish in a 55 gallon tank.


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## pokagon55 (Jan 31, 2006)

Just have a ? If you ( Pete ) Had nothing but New. The tank. the filter, the gravel Etc. then how would you go about setting up and maintaning the tank?

All new stuff without the help of your mature tanks ?


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## springmom (Mar 17, 2006)

Three cheers and a standing ovation!

I have been out of the hobby for a few years...just a FEW years...and OMG. I seem to have been in suspended animation for about a century! It just wasn't all this complicated last time I had a tank, four-five years ago. I have kept fish since I was in college, so that means, oh, 30 years ago, and we had blackwater tonic and aquarium salt and yes, peat and coral and wood. I was FLOORED when I went to Aquarium World yesterday and saw the dizzying array of chemicals that I had to choose from.

I did buy some Bio-Spira, to help kick-start the cycling, since we're starting from scratch and had no old filters to borrow from. But the rest of it? Yikes.

You are lucky, though, Pete, in living in a part of the country with relatively soft water. Texas limestone-filtered water is VERY hard. Dropping the hardness and ph are going to be an interesting experience.

Jan, another old-schooler


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2006)

pokagon55 said:


> Just have a ? If you ( Pete ) Had nothing but New. The tank. the filter, the gravel Etc. then how would you go about setting up and maintaning the tank?
> 
> All new stuff without the help of your mature tanks ?



I would go to a local pond, fill up a 5 gallon bucket with pond water toss in a couple handfuls of plants and and pore it all in the tank. Then I would go get some danios or whatever and start having fun. Sure there might be some dragon fly nymphs from the pond that might eat the danios but who cares? They are more interesting to watch than danios anyway!


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

i just started fishkeeping 6 months ago. i dont think its complicated...i honestly don't know what your talking about with the forums telling people how to do it and making it super complicated.

when i was doing my research before setting up my tank, i read about the nitrogen cycle, i read about fishless cycling. it wasn't complicated to me at all, and i didn't have anyone telling me to use a ton of weird chmicals etc. i just use tap water with dechlorinator in it. 

i don't think i've ever read one of these threads your talking about that make everything all complicated? i've read people telling a newbie to get a test kit and post their water perameters because one of their fish was acting weird, and to do lots of water changes to get excessively high ammonia and nitrite down as low as possible because it was stressing the fish, but that's all just common sense.

the way you guys are talking is like you don't believe ammonia and nitrite harm fish and stress them out and they'll just suffer through and get over it, but that's not true. it does permanent damage to them from ammonia burns and compromises the effectiveness of their gills.


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## Fishy Lee (Nov 9, 2005)

lotsoffish is my hero!


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## Torpedo (Jan 23, 2006)

RockabillyChick said:


> i honestly don't know what your talking about with the forums telling people how to do it and making it super complicated.



find me a thread on this forum besides this one that doesnt have a post in it that claims a tank is overstocked. some folks around here are just too sensitive. i understand some people love fish and dont want to see them get hurt, but some people cross the line from "concern" to downright "rude" and overbearing. some folks should learn to give advice without giving orders. 

great post, lotsoffish.


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## little (Mar 10, 2006)

I agree 100% with MsDoLittle, oh my god, how do you do it! and i hate to see your electric bill!!! Personally I am glad i have read what i have here and on other forum. It has given me alot of respect for fish. I have a higher understanding of there needs and life style. learning about the cycles and how it works is very helpful and knowing for a newbie where the water is <high ammonia so forth> gives me a understanding of why my fish might be acting the way they do, otherwise i would be dumping everything they sold in the stores in my tank<<done that>> I have a feeling in many years i will be more comfortable with getting away with doing the same things you do.


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## meyerhaus (Feb 27, 2006)

I think that most of these forums tend to lean one way or the other: over-kill or under-kill. I have always been a fan of somewhere in the middle. I have a feeling that if lotsoffish were asked, he would say that the most important part of fish keeping is observation. 

*Watch your fish!* If they are acting wierd, don't add chemicals to the water, move the fish into an isolator and, if you want, medicate it! If you don't want to add anything, watch it and keep the water clean...not bleached...clean.

Fish die...it's a bummer. I lost a female swordtail this morning. The reality of the hobby is that it is a cycle of learning from your mistakes. When I was a kid, I loved Bettas (still do). But, one day while my dad was at work, I walked to the LFS, bought 5 males with my allowance and...you can see where this is going...put them all in a 10 gallon. I learned not to do that again.

Observation...isn't watching them why we do this anyway?


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## RockabillyChick (Nov 18, 2005)

i got in an argument with sue in chat lastnight. she told me i shouldn't have discounted what pete has to say.

first, i don't doubt that pete has tons of expirience and knows a ton about fish and is great at taking care of them, etc.

but there are things about fish that pete has known for 30 years and doesn't even think about anymore. they're just kind of "Duh!" issues for him. 

but to someone who has never owned a fish before, things like cycling and water changes and stocking are totally new and they have NO IDEA. i didn't know what the nitrogen cycle was until a few years ago when i set up my pond outside, and even then i wasn't totally clear on it until 6 months ago when i started researching for my 10g tank. 

lots of new people also don't understand that you can't keep 10 goldfish in a 10g tank for any length of time. and there was just a thread on another forum about outdated fish books from the 70's that told people to never change the water, just to top it off when it evaporated.

pete, what seems like making things complicated to you, is just people like me trying to teach newbies the basics, the things that you have known for 30 years and don't even think twice about anymore.


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## Ben Mazur (Mar 21, 2006)

Wow, this thread has opened my eye's up. Thanks. And lotsoffish's first post has encouraged me to do my canadian wild tank idea even more.


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

I test my water when the tank is new, or when I want to establish a certain set of parameters, or when I'm planning to move some fish around, but that's it. Once it's broken-in, my regular maintenance pretty much keeps things where I want them.

For old timers like me, fishkeeping is not just second, but first nature. We don't even have to think about it anymore, and our eyes alone tell us just about anything we'd ever want to know. I can even tell the temperature within a degree by touch, and can tell the salinity just as accurately by taste. I know the symptoms of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate toxicity on sight, and I know how each factor in the system dynamically affects the others.

That's all fine & dandy for us masters, but novices would still do very well to play it safe. In this example, lotsoffish used an established filter and a whole lot of plants. Of course the tank was as good as cycled from day one, and all tanks should be set up that way whenever possible. Dumping a pile of fish into a "raw" new tank with new filter media and no plants, however, is just begging for trouble. Since that's what most people do, the amount of problems they have are of course much higher than they need to be.

Until a person learns how a tank really works, it is far better for them to err on the side of caution. There's no sense in trying to get away with something just because you can, and there's a difference between thriving & surviving.

Here is the rule I live by: maintain the tanks in such a way that they'll be fine when the power goes out for a week. You just can't go wrong if you do that. Now THAT's old-school!

On the other hand, you'll never get anywhere if you don't experiment, so feel free to mix it up a little. Have fun, make a mess, and learn something.


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

Well said TOS


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## lohachata (Jan 27, 2006)

i have a friend by the name of mike..he is a great guy.he has been a continous member of the Cleveland Aquarium Society since 1938...that's right;1938...all except for the time he served his country in WW II.he was keeping saltwater tanks before we had synthetic sea salts.while he has lost fish;it has been rare..i have asked his advice many times.fortunately i was always wise enough to follow that advice.it has never failed me.i never questioned his knowledge.but he never tests his tanks...not even his saltwater.he has always said that folks go through all kinds of complicated activities to try and impress other folks with their knowledge.but in reality the more people mess with their tanks,the more problems they have and the less time they have to enjoy their pets.
if one asks for information and then rejects that information must already have all of the answers to any questions that could ever be asked.
so why would they ask for the information in the first place??????
usually they just lack the maturity of a little logic and just want the attention...kind of like the child continously asking why,why,why.it is not that they really want to know why;they just want the attention.
if the information really isn't wanted nor the advice given to be followed;then one should not waste anothers valuable time..for there are others that really do want the information and will reap the benefits of following sage advice.

like a Harvard professor friend told me one time..you are here to learn and not to teach;so keep your mouth shut and your ears and eyes open and that is just what will happen


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## ron v (Feb 24, 2005)

Wow. I've been away for a few days and come back to find this!!!!! What an interesting thread. Lotsofish, I don't think you are really advocating the approach you described to a beginner. Your point is that we often go far overboard with chemistry. I agree, but if you are suggesting that a newby shouldn't be concerned with the "cycle", then I don't agree. New fish syndrome kills more fish than anything else in our aquariums. I have no doubt that the things you described worked just as you say. I occasionally do the same, or similar. Your post, however, read and taken out of context by a beginner is an invitation for disaster.


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## MaryPa (Jan 25, 2006)

Yelp I agree 100% with Ron V. Pete you know what you`re doing but this could really confuse a newbie.:-?


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Well, newbies are already pretty confused anyway. 

LOF ( lotsoffish ) has been cooking up a little something that should help get his point across in a big way, along with making things much clearer for everyone, especially beginners. It should at least be a lot of fun for the rest of us. 
Look for it in late April & get a spare 10-gallon tank ready! ( or more accurately, DON'T. ) Heh, heh.


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## Zoe (Feb 26, 2006)

lohachata said:


> like a Harvard professor friend told me one time..you are here to learn and not to teach;so keep your mouth shut and your ears and eyes open and that is just what will happen


hrm where does that quote come from, it sounds very familiar to me but I cannot place it. Tuesday's With Morrie maybe? Hrm...

Zoe


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## msdolittle (Mar 4, 2006)

TheOldSalt said:


> Well, newbies are already pretty confused anyway.
> 
> LOF ( lotsoffish ) has been cooking up a little something that should help get his point across in a big way, along with making things much clearer for everyone, especially beginners. It should at least be a lot of fun for the rest of us.
> Look for it in late April & get a spare 10-gallon tank ready! ( or more accurately, DON'T. ) Heh, heh.


No fair being cryptic!


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## Osiris (Jan 18, 2005)

Can we take a fishforums fieldtrip to LOF's place of tanks?


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## manda (Feb 9, 2006)

i dont think people are making water chemistry any more complicated than it really is. for a new tank that is...
but after you have a cycled tank there is no need for all that bullcrap.
a few times before i was wanting fish and learned a bit about cycling and it totally made me run off. i decided no fish, too hard to care for... i never knew they were this much work! but after doing it i see that it isnt all that bad.
since my tank has been cycled i only water tested twice... one because i had a fish that kept swimming back on fourth rapidly, and the other time when i added some stones to my water.
thats it, and i dont see why you need to test if your fish arent acting funny or if you havent done anything new with your tank.


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## fishboy (Feb 26, 2005)

Thats amazing pete, that your own fishroom or a store that you mantian? 

Personaly I never test my water and I don't mess with chemicals anymore. If i want hard water, i chuck a shell in my tank If i want soft water I add peat. It's that simple. I believe everything is mind over matter. If I don't think there's something wrong, then there isn't. I've never had a fish get a disease(besides finrot). I also contribute alot of my success in my unplanted tanks by leaving green algea on the walls(not the front though) which takes the place of helpful plants. In time I'm starting to grow plants similar to mossballs naturaly that in turn take nutrients away from the algea and leave my tanks algea free. It's all a matter of time and patience. I've only been in this from a year and I've learned a ton. This is the first hobby I've ever truely enjoyed and I have BIG plans to continue it in the future.


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## 2complicated (Aug 25, 2005)

i never use test kits but my fish seem to be fine!


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## fishfreaks (Jan 19, 2005)

MalawianPro said:


> Can we take a fishforums fieldtrip to LOF's place of tanks?


That would be sweet!


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