# Mysterious guppy death. Ideas?



## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Looking for advice/ideas on what to do next, as I am at a loss.

10 gallon planted tank
11 ghost shrimp
2 bamboo shrimp
~20 malaysian trumpet snails
2 small pond snails
1 guppy fry [got him by accident with the other guppies]

And finally, male fancy guppies that keep dying. I've had no more than 5 at a time. Over the past 2 months since the tank has been set up I've lost ... let's see ... about 5. 3 of them I cannot explain. They simply turned up dead in the morning, with the tail missing. At first I figured tail/fin rot, but the culprit turned out to be one of the snails that ate the tail. I know this because the 3rd fatality he's been caught in the act. Also, all fish seemed fine up until they went under. No evidence of any sort of disease or anything else on their bodies. They just stop eating, stop being active, go to the bottom and belly up. One of them seemed to have developed a swim bladder disease, as the last day of it's life has been swimming vertically.

Water? Tests fine. 0 across the board, nitrates always below 5 or 10 at the most. If it was a case of bad water quality I think the shrimp or snails would go first. Or the guppy fry, which I got a week ago with 2 other fancy guppies which both died in the meantime.

The water's pH is a little high, it's around 8.2, but so is the LFS water. I tested it before I introduced the fish. Yes, I also acclimated the fish over a period of about 10 minutes because the bag temp and tank temp matched and so did the pH.

What the heck is going on? I don't get it. I had a mild case of an anaerobic pocket which has been taken care of right away. I've had no other fatalities yet as far as shrimp or snails go. Not that I count every MTS, but still.
One of the snails even laid eggs! Now, judging by these critter's hardiness or lack thereof, I would think that if foul water was amiss, snails would go first, then shrimp and finally guppies.

Could it be that I have a few dying plant leaves which I haven't gotten to removing yet? I doubt it, the shrimp play around on them and even nibble.
The only other thing I introduced recently was a pantyhose over the filter nozzle to not suck up the little guppy fry. He can't be more than 3 weeks old, judging by it's size. Yes, I made sure it was clean and everything.

The aquarium has been fully cycled for 2 weeks before I introduced anything in it.
It is heated at 78*F
It is filtered 24/7
It has a fluorescent desk light on top of it that runs from 6PM to 10PM. No, it does not generate heat, I checked.
Right now I have 3 guppies. 2 that seem fine and one that's dying, clamped fins and everything. I also noticed that the other 2 seem to have lost their appetite as of late and are hanging around at the top of the water line. And speaking of diet, I've been feeding them twice a day sparringly some crushed Tetra flakes.

Any ideas? Suggestions?
:chair:


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

How do you say the tank was fully cycled for 2 weeks before anything went into it? How did you cycle?
How big are bamboo shrimp? could they be catching the guppies? The ph is ok- mine runs that high and the guppies don't care.
I have had a few fish die from eating plant matter. It gets stuck in the gut and gives them bowel obstruction.Their innards rupture. That could be possible. I have lost 3 platys this way in the past month.
It is possible that the fish are unhealthy when you get them.
How do you know what ph the pet store water is?
I was told by one store that they used tap water just like everyone else in town and one day I see a ph meter in a tank and see it reads 6.2 I asked one of the staff and he said "oh we use soft water here" however if you ask the manager of the store the answer is that they use plain tap water-- so there is a lie.
Acclimating for ten minutes is not enough IMO.
I float the fish for about 20 - 30 minutes and then drip tank water into the bag for another 30 minutes. I remove some of the bag water with a turkey baster and drip the same amount of tank water into the bag. Your water may have the same Ph and temp as the stores but each tank has its own characteristics. Possibly your hardness is different. 
I personally would not keep guppies at 78. I keep mine around 72-74 and one bunch is kept at 70. 
i like to save higher temps for emergencies such as disease treatments. ( not used for over 5 years now)
Hopefully you will get more ideas.
Perhaps also your snails or shrimp are carrying a parasite that is attacking the guppies.


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2007)

mousey half ur questions are in his writing!! If i were u i wud add melafix and aquarium salt


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

I am just checking and looking for further info.
Melafix and salt are not going to help if it an internal problem. If there is nothing to see on the outside of the fish it is an internal problem or a chemistry issue. Sounds more of an internal issue tho.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

*Edited by Moderator*

swordtailbreedr, that was completely uncalled for, and this is your warning: do that again and you will be banished from FishForums. You might wish to read the introductory threads for new members which explain some of the rules.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

swordtailbreedr I must admit this is the 4th time I see childish replies coming from your end, not to mention bad grammar. As others before me have already said, I gotta glance twice over your replies to get what you're saying. mousey is not being a prick. At all. No need for you to get defensive. Aquarium salt I am already using, actually I added 1tsp of marine salt to the entire mix of 10g.

mousey, I'll answer your questions one by one 
I cycled the tank with raw shrimp. It took about 4 weeks and I took tests constantly. 
I know the pH @ the store because I tested their water when I got home. The hardness may differ, but I don't think it's that much. When I acclimated them, granted it was short, I removed water from the bags/added water from my tank constantly.
The temperature should not be an issue, guppies tolerate the 70 range well but most literature I've read states 78 is ideal.
The bamboo shrimp are big enough to suspect they're getting their hands on the guppies but I'm certain that's not the case. For one, they're very shy. Second, they weren't given any tools by mother nature to inflict any real damage on the guppies. Heh, I was actually giving my wife a hard time about something similar. She was the one that found the dead guppy with the snail on it, I was at work and she e-mailed me saying "I've removed the victim and the likely culprit from the tank". I said honey, I'm sure that vicious snail jumped the poor defensless guppy in the middle of the night" 

Parasites could be the issue here. I don't even know how to begin trying to treat for that. Any tips? Let's assume all my guppies die, to the very last one of them. How long should I wait before I get more fish in the hopes that whatever parasite is there is gone? What traces should I look for as far as parasites go? Don't internal parasites take more than a few days to kill, or am I underestimating them?

Now I'm not the type that enjoys paying the energy bill so I would gladly unplug the heater. Now that I think about it, ambient temp is right around 74-75*F which should be enough. Given the fragil state of my fish, should I be unplugging the heater or would that cause more stress?


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

you may need to bleach the tank...


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

o.0
No way around that? I've got a whole bunch of medication here but only for external stuff: Pimafix, Melafix, Maracyn I and II, etc. Any wide-spectrum medication for any sort of parasitic infections I should try? Keeping in mind I have shrimpies in there.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

I jost lost two more this morning. I'm down to one guppy that so far seems to be fine.
Help!


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

can u move him to a qt tank? even a warm fish bowl?


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

just try to get him to different water..come into chat i can help alot more


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

It's the shrimp.
When the guppies lie down to sleep at night, they're easy meat for the shrimp. Finrot doesn't melt whole tails in a single day, and I _very_ seriously doubt that you have any of the rare predatory snail species in your tank.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

yeah i think ur right thats why get him somwhere elswe


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

TheOldSalt, you are correct, I found a shrimp on the body of a guppy this morning, eating away at the tail. Are you suggesting the shrimp attack the guppies at night when they're on the bottom? If that's the theory, how come i haven't seen any evidence of damage to the guppies that keep dying? Or maybe they are dying due to stress?
Are we talking ghost shrimp or the 2 bamboos? Damnit, I thought I had a winner combo here for this tank. What fish should I get then? Mollies? Platties? How about a betta to put the shrimp in their place ...


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2007)

get rid of bamboo shrimp!


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Is there a particular reason?


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

Hi Fish bone.
Last year I ended up with a mess in my one community tank. I bought a pair of gold gourami's from Big AL's. I quarantined them for 3 weeks and they seemed fine.
At that point I added them to the community tank. They died with in 3 days. Within a couple of days I had several old friends die over night from what looked to be a hemmorhagic septicemia.The fish bled into the abdominal area.
Then 3 of my loaches ended up with skinny and died over the next few weeks. 
This was my first experience with illness on a tank other than a mild outbreak of ich that had occured right after i set up the tank 4 years before.
I was devastated and treated with various things such as metronidazole( flagyl) straight with no additives. I then tried Jungle Labs anti parasitic medication plus antiparasitic food. I also used Maracin 1 and 2 for the septicemia. . The long and short of it is that i ended up losing the 2 gouramis as well as 6 of my original fish.
I was mighty ticked off. I spent about $80 in meds as well as multiple water changes every 2nd day.
Every thing settled down and I have had no more problems until this past month when I have an old fish that has developed these horrible cysts along her side. 
Anyway, I think you need to consider internal parasites of some sort and treat if only to try to eliminate any free swimming in between stage. If any fish survive perhaps you can consider the issue resolved. If not I would do a strip down and start again. 
I have found that guppies and platies will eat most foods. You may be able to buy some medicated food. other folk on other forums have said they feed anti parasitic food to their livebearers every second month as a prophylactic. I don't necessarily believe that is necessary if you breed your own livebearers, but I did do it for several months after I had the problem. The worst of it was that I had only just moved a fish from the infected tank just before the out break, so I treated the other tank with the antiparasitc food only. There has not been any problem there.
I wish I could give you more help.
When You purchase the fish try and stand around for a while and see if the fish poop. If they produce nice dark fairly substantial poo the fish is probably ok. If the poo is white and thin do not buy from that tank.
I am sorry if some of my questions seemed too much: however sometimes new folk arrive on the site and say they have cycled a tank and we find out the tank sat there for a couple of weeks with no starter and therefore the readings are all at 0. And then we find out they threw a tank load of fish in there.
Good luck. Do not get discouraged.Easy to say! I am pretty much nervous of getting any fish from the stores after my last experience. My neighbors like to get my livebearers too because they have had such lousy luck with the lfs and lps around here.
I have read that shrimp can catch fry and eat and that they do carry quite a few parasites also. Dunno, i tried them once and they climbed out of the tank after a few days and disappeared into the carpet.


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## MyraVan (Jan 19, 2005)

I have no idea what's causing the problem, but it's NOT the bamboo shrimp. They are the most peaceful things in the world. In fact, you said it yourself "they weren't given any tools by mother nature to inflict any real damage on the guppies." Also, if you see a ghost shrimp or snail eating a dead fish, it doesn't mean that it killed it. Shrimps (ghost shrimp, but not bamboos) and snails are scavengers and will eat anything dead that they find.

I hope you get the problem sorted, it must be miserable to see all your fish die.


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

The remaining guppy seems to be fine, so far, so is the little fry. Might be lonely though. I'll look for some anti parasitic food and follow directions on it, as a preventative. The thing is, again, can parasites really kill off fish in a matter of a few days though?


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2007)

yes they can


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## TheOldSalt (Jan 28, 2005)

Not just in days, they can do it in _hours!_


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, I'm pretty sure it's not parasites. The one remaining guppy is as of now happy as ever, actively swimming all over the tank. He's got the appetite of a shark! Also, the little cute fry is growing more by the day and has taken a liking to the other guppy. He follows him around everywhere  I don't know what he feeds on but he manages on his own, all I try to give him is some crushed sinking pellet which I sprinkle on the surface of the water, about 3-4 times a day. He would have starved long ago if that was inadequate.
I really don't know what to believe. Maybe it was just a case of water hardness difference and inadequate acclimation, bad/old stock? Still though, if it was shock due to water differences, the fry would have died and the same for the shrimp. Both my bamboo shrimp moulted and the ghosties do so on a regular basis. I know that this can also be a sign of stress, but no fatalities as of yet.
Inadequate lightning? Some dying leaves here and there? I have a moonlight on at night from 10PM to 4AM but it's placed on TOP of the fluorescent light, so it doesn't give off much light at all. I once thought maybe that caused stress but I can't see it happening. Also, there isn't a chance the light itself is faulty right? It's an under the desk lamp I got a while ago from Menards, it's fluorescent and it doesn't give off any measurable heat.

So what do you guys think? Should I try get more fish, one by one? One thing I have my eye on is the poop factor, I don't like seeing all that dirt on the bottom, makes me want to do PWCs in the middle of the week [which I have done for the last 2 weeks]. But if I get too small of fish, then feeding them becomes a bit of a problem. They can't take pellets as they are too small and the damn flake food ends up mostly on the bottom. So I was thinking either 2 platies or 6 neons.
Thoughts?


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## mousey (Jan 18, 2005)

It seems that the parasites are in the fish for some time. By the time they cause symptoms the fish is too riddled with them for the treatments to do much good- or so I am told.


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2007)

mousey i have sucsesfuly treated paracites before...


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## Cichlidsrule (Nov 8, 2006)

Just as a preventative for future illnesses...I would supply the tank with about a teaspoon to a tablespoon of salt every other day for about a week. Guppies can stand quite a bit of salt. You could try a salt bath for the parasites....


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## fishbone (Jan 15, 2007)

Well, until further proof surfaces, I will attribute this to simply bad luck with bad batches of guppies. I talked to the guy that sold them to me from one of the LFSs and he said what I have encountered is far from unheard of. The guppies are bred locally and unfortunately pretty crowded when they come in. He admitted himself that he's had some unexplained fatalities. I'm going for 8 neon tetras which I'm sure will do just fine with the one remaining fancy guppy.
The one fry I got accidentally is growing quite well!


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